[00:00:00] This is the Defenders Podcast on TV Podcast Industries and we're talking about What If, Season 3, Episode 6, What If, 1872.

[00:00:10] Who are you? Where's the hood? Where's my sister?

[00:00:14] I'm so sorry. Look at me, boys. My apologies. My name is Sonny Birch. Now I'm a proud investor in the bright new future the hood's building.

[00:00:22] Bright future, huh? Doesn't look so bright for your prisoners back there.

[00:00:26] Prisoners? No, no, no. You got it all wrong. You see, this here is a train of liberation.

[00:00:33] And those fine folks, well, they've been conscripted into a force that's gonna change the world.

[00:00:41] Conscription doesn't sound like freedom to me.

[00:00:43] Free market in action. A little economic principle I like to call supply and demand.

[00:00:50] I supply them and they do what I demand.

[00:01:14] Welcome back, fellow Defenders, to the Defenders Podcast on TV Podcast Industries.

[00:01:20] We're here talking about the new season of What If, Season 3, and we're on to Episode 6, What If, 1872.

[00:01:29] I am one of your hosts, John.

[00:01:31] I am your other host, Derek.

[00:01:33] Howdy, partners.

[00:01:35] Howdy, indeed.

[00:01:36] Indeed. It's very difficult to kind of think that you've said the title right with it being a year.

[00:01:42] It's kind of like, I almost want to say, what if it's quarter to nine on a Friday?

[00:01:46] Exactly, yeah.

[00:01:48] It's a little strange.

[00:01:49] But I like this sort of taking inspiration from the 1602, I guess, and setting it in the Old West and that era in North America, in the U.S., in the sort of nascent USA as it sort of continues its expansion across the continent of North America.

[00:02:11] If the America is not exactly United States of America.

[00:02:14] I guess so, yeah. It's the new sort of the move west here.

[00:02:21] So I really, really enjoyed that as well.

[00:02:24] The other thing I absolutely loved here is that we get the first introduction of the hood, which is superb.

[00:02:33] I really like the hood, mainly because it's a Brian K. Vaughan, I think, kind of created it, if I remember rightly.

[00:02:42] And if I'm wrong on that, it's that I love his treatment of the hood in the comics.

[00:02:50] Yeah.

[00:02:50] And that's really, really cool to see, actually, that side of it sort of being brought out here in that the hood is the hood.

[00:03:02] It's not the person inhabiting it.

[00:03:04] They take on the powers of the hood and are corrupted by it.

[00:03:09] Yeah.

[00:03:10] So I really like that.

[00:03:11] It's interesting, and I don't know.

[00:03:12] I'm sure we'll talk about it as we get into the episode itself.

[00:03:15] But we know that because we've read the comic books, the story from the comics.

[00:03:20] And I'm not sure whether that comes across completely.

[00:03:23] It's very subtle, I think, if it does.

[00:03:25] And I think it's more to do with the scarring on Xilin's face.

[00:03:29] Yes.

[00:03:29] When the hood kind of is knocked off and it reveals it, the face.

[00:03:36] Yeah.

[00:03:37] But also, I think when it's taken up by a draft of wind, it looks very much like Doctor Strange's cloak.

[00:03:44] Yes.

[00:03:45] There's a sentient-ness to it.

[00:03:49] Yes.

[00:03:49] Such a quality of it.

[00:03:50] Yeah.

[00:03:50] A quality that is not just a cloak being taken away on the wind.

[00:03:57] You get a sense that it's moving in a purposeful direction.

[00:04:00] Yes.

[00:04:00] And I guess in that sense, it's almost a bit like the Venom symbiotic.

[00:04:06] Yeah.

[00:04:06] That they have to find a new owner and wearer of the hood.

[00:04:10] Yeah.

[00:04:11] Yeah.

[00:04:11] It's kind of cool.

[00:04:11] Yeah.

[00:04:12] Really cool.

[00:04:13] And also, similarly to the episode we talked about last time with Riri Williams being introduced

[00:04:16] in that episode for the first time since Wakanda Forever.

[00:04:19] She was supposed to be in Ironheart, which should have been released before this episode

[00:04:23] of What If.

[00:04:24] The Hood is also going to be in Ironheart.

[00:04:27] Yes.

[00:04:27] In live action.

[00:04:28] It's the first live action appearance of the character.

[00:04:30] So, once again, this would be a return for the hood in the show here rather than the introduction

[00:04:36] of him.

[00:04:36] So, which is interesting.

[00:04:38] Yeah.

[00:04:38] And, of course, we get a particular nod as well.

[00:04:42] We do.

[00:04:42] To another hero, which we'll get into as we discuss this episode.

[00:04:49] Yes.

[00:04:49] But before we get into our spoiler-filled discussion, just a quick reminder to our fellow

[00:04:55] defenders that you can head on over to our website at tvpodcastindustries.com, where you

[00:05:00] can subscribe to the podcast on any mysterious podcast player in the multiverse of podcast players.

[00:05:08] Also, we love to get your multiversal feedback through.

[00:05:13] And so, any thoughts, theories, and observations, fellow defenders, please whip them into us by email to feedback at tvpodcastindustries.com.

[00:05:22] Or leave us a comment on our spoiler post on our Facebook group over on facebook.com forward slash groups forward slash tvpodcastindustries.

[00:05:33] Absolutely.

[00:05:34] But without further ado, partner.

[00:05:38] Can you say that more Western-y?

[00:05:40] But without further ado, partner, let us get into our spoiler-filled discussion of What If?

[00:05:50] Episode 6, What If?

[00:05:53] 1872.

[00:05:54] Yeah.

[00:05:54] Who gave us what, where, when, how, and why?

[00:05:58] Well, the executive producers of the show, of course, are Matthew Chauncey, Brian Andrews, and Brad Winterman.

[00:06:03] With Kevin Feige, head writer of the show is Matthew Chauncey.

[00:06:06] And once again, the story of this episode is written by Brian Andrews, Matthew Chauncey, and Ryan Little.

[00:06:10] With the teleplay by Matthew Chauncey and Ryan Little.

[00:06:12] But dual director duties this time, as we have Stéphane Franck and Brian Andrews on director duties this time.

[00:06:18] It's a double gunslinger for the Western episode.

[00:06:22] Yeah, a team-up, if you will.

[00:06:24] Well done.

[00:06:25] Yeah, just like Shang-Chi and Hawkeye herself.

[00:06:29] Exactly.

[00:06:29] Exactly.

[00:06:30] Well, John, do you want to tell us your synopsis for this episode of What If?

[00:06:36] And please hold back on the Australian Western accent.

[00:06:39] Sure.

[00:06:41] In the 1860s, Zhiling fled to America for a better life, only to fall victim to the Hood's plan to vilify Chinese immigrants in order to consolidate his power.

[00:06:52] But in 1872, Shang-Chi is searching for his sister alongside Kate Bishop, who wants revenge on the Hood for killing her family.

[00:07:01] They find a decimated township and meet a boy, Kwa Yung Fan, who claims the Hood attacked and left on a ghost train.

[00:07:09] Shang-Chi, Bishop, and Yung Fan find and board the train, where they discover the missing immigrants have been brainwashed by the Hood's enforcer, Sonny Birch.

[00:07:19] The Watcher helps Yung Fan survive while Shang-Chi and Bishop are taken to the Hood, revealed to be the corrupted Xiaoling, who killed the original Hood and stole his powers.

[00:07:31] Birch confesses to killing Bishop's parents and attempts to brainwash her until Yung Fan rings the bell, freeing the prisoners and allowing Kate to knock Birch out.

[00:07:41] Shang-Chi refuses to join or fight Xiaoling and Kate Bishop kills her.

[00:07:45] Later, the pair observe Yung Fan telling his heroic story to the other immigrants, and they ride off into the sunset.

[00:07:53] Subsequently, the Watcher is confronted by three other Watchers for his interference, and a few shards of their observatory spill into the multiverse.

[00:08:04] Mmm. The interfering Watcher once again.

[00:08:08] Yeah, this is really jam-packed, actually.

[00:08:11] I think there's a lot of really good, cool stuff in this.

[00:08:15] Yeah.

[00:08:17] I loved the hovering Ghost Train.

[00:08:19] I'm a bit of a train nerd anyway, but that'd be so cool.

[00:08:23] It's kind of like it's on the Repulsors that Iron Man uses, isn't it?

[00:08:26] Exactly.

[00:08:26] I love that they have a moment where it goes over a chasm in the middle of the desert, and they're all screaming that it's going to fall into the chasm and it flies over the top of it.

[00:08:34] Very cool.

[00:08:34] It would make bridge building a thing in the past.

[00:08:37] Absolutely.

[00:08:38] But with all those things in mind, let us go into our three points for this episode.

[00:08:46] First up, what if we had seen this before?

[00:08:49] Yeah.

[00:08:49] Name the Cinematic Universe movies, Derek.

[00:08:52] Yeah.

[00:08:52] Chop, chop.

[00:09:21] Chop.

[00:09:22] The Watcher's voiceover, where he says, on the farthest reaches of the multiverse, it's less what if and more what the hell.

[00:09:33] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:09:34] So this is vastly different than anything we've seen before, and all the characters that we have in here are all people that are in contemporary MCU movies, but brought back to what they would be like in the West.

[00:09:44] Yeah, exactly.

[00:09:46] But we do – I mean, we have nods to Shang-Chi and kind of the influence of their father.

[00:09:51] Yep.

[00:09:51] You know, it was Zhao Ling and Shang-Chi trying to escape his kind of overpresence in their lives and to gain some freedom.

[00:10:02] But in this case, it's actually both of them, you know, coming to America, whereas I think she was in Hong Kong or I think maybe Montrepoor even.

[00:10:10] I just can't remember now off the top of my head.

[00:10:13] But, you know, so we have those flavors of Shang-Chi.

[00:10:16] I remember she was running the Fight Club.

[00:10:18] Sorry, that's what I remember.

[00:10:19] Yeah.

[00:10:19] Also Kate Bishop from Hawkeye and her introduction in that TV show.

[00:10:27] Yeah.

[00:10:28] But he appeared up with Shang-Chi in the Wild West.

[00:10:31] So, yeah.

[00:10:32] But as you say, interestingly, it's drawing from actually the inspiration of going back in time to all the – to the same characters inhabiting different time periods.

[00:10:47] And in particular, Neil Gaiman with the 1602 comic as well then as that on screen in last season.

[00:10:56] But it is interesting, isn't it?

[00:10:58] In last season when they had the 1602 episode, they were very careful to point out because Peggy finds out that actually it isn't a universe.

[00:11:04] It isn't a part of the multiverse.

[00:11:06] It's something where they've merged together the current present timeline and 1602 and got it.

[00:11:12] So it was kind of –

[00:11:13] Effectively an incursion type event.

[00:11:16] Kind of like that, yeah.

[00:11:17] Whereas in this episode, you've got the Watcher saying this does exist as part of the multiverse.

[00:11:20] It's a world where our current contemporary characters live in the 1800s, you know?

[00:11:25] Yeah, no, exactly.

[00:11:26] And we see a few other examples of this, I think, including Froggy Thor and Croc – Crocodile Loki.

[00:11:34] Yeah.

[00:11:35] Alligator Loki.

[00:11:36] Alligator Loki, sorry.

[00:11:37] There could be Crocodile Loki, of course.

[00:11:38] You know, absolutely.

[00:11:39] Yeah.

[00:11:39] Why not?

[00:11:40] And we also see Crossbones as a pirate as well.

[00:11:45] Yes.

[00:11:45] I think so, anyway.

[00:11:46] Yeah.

[00:11:46] That sort of looked like – I couldn't make out who the other characters were, but effectively, I think it was just saying there is a pirate world out there where villains and heroes are in pirate costumes.

[00:11:54] Which, if we had a fourth season of what, if we might have seen a pirate episode.

[00:11:58] Yeah, exactly.

[00:11:59] Yeah.

[00:11:59] Yeah.

[00:11:59] So, yeah, this is kind of, I guess, in that vein of being relatively unique and leaning into the Shang-Chi movie.

[00:12:11] Yeah.

[00:12:11] Really here.

[00:12:12] I suppose one of the other things, just as you mentioned it with Shang-Chi, his father's an immortal because of the Ten Rings, or he's been living thousands of years in Shang-Chi.

[00:12:21] We didn't get the sense that Shang-Chi and his sister, Xia Ling, are immortal.

[00:12:25] They're growing and they're aging.

[00:12:27] So, I wonder if part of that here is maybe they were born a little earlier and they are.

[00:12:31] They live a lot longer because we have Xia Ling here moving over to the U.S. in the 1800s.

[00:12:35] Maybe.

[00:12:36] I mean, I think it's more to do with the power of the ring.

[00:12:39] So, unless they actually hold them, then I don't think they would avail of that longevity that they give.

[00:12:48] Yeah.

[00:12:49] One of the other things I want to say about this episode, the choice of characters that they bring in, I think it's really interesting.

[00:12:55] Having John Walker be the first character that you meet, played again by Wyatt Russell, who was in Falcon and the Winter Soldier.

[00:13:01] Having him in here, meeting up with Shang-Chi and trying to take out Shang-Chi and Kate Bishop.

[00:13:06] I love the twist on the Ten Rings that you ring the bell ten times and Shang-Chi answers.

[00:13:11] That's a really cool use of him.

[00:13:14] And he is called the Ten Rings because of his calling card, I suppose, which I think is really interesting.

[00:13:21] That was just such a great choice there.

[00:13:23] And, you know, seeing Sonny Birch, played by Walton Goggins, back in here was a complete shock.

[00:13:28] A character I think most people would have forgotten from Ant-Man and the Wasp.

[00:13:34] He was the bad guy in that movie, or one of the bad guys in that movie.

[00:13:37] But not a very memorable character from the past.

[00:13:40] But Walton Goggins is such a good actor.

[00:13:42] It's great to see him in here.

[00:13:44] And why not have him in a Western?

[00:13:46] Particularly after his brilliant performance in Fallout this year, where he effectively plays a cowboy in there, too.

[00:13:53] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:13:54] It was really good to see him.

[00:13:56] It, like, really brought the menace to that character, especially when he's playing with his pocket watch.

[00:14:03] That's giving this kind of soothing jingle, which I thought was really cool.

[00:14:09] I liked that.

[00:14:10] You're feeling sleepy.

[00:14:12] Yeah, exactly.

[00:14:13] Great.

[00:14:13] And then, like we said before, the only other thing is that just because of maybe how some of these TV shows on Disney+, because of COVID and production stuff have been sort of moved around a bit.

[00:14:29] You know, ultimately, we would have gotten a sense of The Hood from the Ironheart TV show.

[00:14:35] Yes.

[00:14:35] And that's not yet been released.

[00:14:36] So, in effect, this becomes the first iteration of The Hood in animation form rather than in live action.

[00:14:47] Yeah.

[00:14:47] So, it's interesting to see because, you know, I was wondering who was the original Hood before Xia Ling had faced him and sort of defeated him and taken the Hood.

[00:15:03] Yeah.

[00:15:03] Because you wonder maybe would it have been voiced by Anthony Ramos, who will be playing in the live action debut of Ironheart on the TV.

[00:15:14] So, yeah, it'd be interesting.

[00:15:15] It would have been pretty cool.

[00:15:16] I kind of get the feeling that you would have maybe seen him in there at some point.

[00:15:20] You would have heard the voice in there at some point had Ironheart been released before now.

[00:15:25] But it wouldn't make sense to an audience, I suppose.

[00:15:27] You can't have him dating in here.

[00:15:29] But it's such an interesting idea that you have this Hood controlling Xia Ling and turning her more evil.

[00:15:38] Because in the Shang-Chi movie, she was duplicitous as well.

[00:15:42] She had a rivalry with Shang-Chi.

[00:15:44] So, it's a good use of the character here in this episode, I think.

[00:15:49] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:15:50] Yeah, so I think on to our point two.

[00:15:54] What if there was the small change?

[00:15:56] What is the premise of the episode?

[00:15:58] We've touched on this already.

[00:16:00] It is that Xia Ling moves to America to escape her father in the 1800s.

[00:16:05] Yes.

[00:16:06] And is there then as this sort of vanguard of new migrants coming to the new world of America.

[00:16:17] And it's that whole frontier land, the Wild West, the new emerging west coast of America, as well as the interior.

[00:16:28] And you have here then that, you know, these new migrants that are coming from across the world as it goes west.

[00:16:39] They're coming through from across the Pacific rather than the Atlantic are being targeted and scapegoated by the Hood.

[00:16:47] Yes, and that itself provides kind of the inspiration for what Xia Ling's using the power of the Hood for.

[00:16:54] She's effectively disappointed in the move that she's made to America because everything she's been promised hasn't come to pass.

[00:17:02] She's gotten over there.

[00:17:03] She's been kidnapped along with many other migrants who've come into the country by the Hood and by Sonny Birch.

[00:17:09] Yeah, and, you know, their homes, their sort of businesses that they've set up in order to make money and to integrate into this new world have been destroyed by the Hood.

[00:17:21] And seemingly they're not getting the protection that they deserve.

[00:17:24] And so, yeah, she effectively takes the mantle from him.

[00:17:29] And this is the only bit of confusion I kind of had.

[00:17:32] But for her, you know, her goal is to make a better world to form soldiers.

[00:17:37] Yet you have Sonny Birch here as like an entrepreneur saying, you know, these people who are being kidnapped and being hypnotized and sent into a trance.

[00:17:46] You know, I'm getting these supplied to me so that they can do as I demand.

[00:17:51] Yes, you know.

[00:17:52] Yeah.

[00:17:53] But whether that's the same.

[00:17:56] You just didn't get that sense that the Hood and Sonny Birch were on the same page.

[00:18:00] But it was almost like he was, yes, a lieutenant of the Hood getting these people.

[00:18:06] But I didn't get the sense of them being on the same page necessarily.

[00:18:12] Yeah, well, he does say I believe in their vision, in the Hood's vision.

[00:18:15] And the Hood's vision is to create an America that is what was promised to the immigrants coming in.

[00:18:21] Yeah.

[00:18:22] Not the America they got effectively is what she's saying, which I think is interesting.

[00:18:27] So, yeah, it's all pretty evil, the plan overall.

[00:18:31] But Xiaoling trying to encourage Shang-Chi to stand beside her and join her in this mission that she has to create a better America.

[00:18:40] I think it's the other side of it is that I have no doubt that Xiaoling's initial intent with taking the Hood and defeating him,

[00:18:48] certainly before she even puts the Hood on, is one that could possibly be righteous, you know, or certainly right.

[00:18:54] But the Hood does have a corrupting influence.

[00:18:57] And so that it twists the longer she has the Hood on.

[00:19:02] Exactly.

[00:19:03] And that intention gets further and further watered down or lost to the intention that the Hood is actually looking for in terms of the darkness that it brings to the world.

[00:19:14] Yeah.

[00:19:15] Yeah.

[00:19:15] Like the intention, of course, to treat immigrants well and make sure they have a great place to live like they were promised before they emigrate to a country.

[00:19:22] Of course, that's absolutely the right motivation.

[00:19:25] But once that's taken and perverted by the Hood into enslaving people, creating an army, creating a group of workers that will build this and are forced to follow the instructions of someone like Sonny here, I suppose.

[00:19:37] They're all pretty dark motivations probably driven by the Hood as well.

[00:19:40] But I think that's the small change from the universe.

[00:19:43] Should we go on to our final point, John?

[00:19:44] Yeah, I think so.

[00:19:45] What if the universe was changed forever?

[00:19:48] What would be so different?

[00:19:51] Yeah, I suppose the big change here overall, what has changed here in this universe is that it's a Western universe where all the heroes live in a Western society.

[00:20:00] And we see, you know, right at the end, we see Shang-Chi and Hawkeye going off to on more adventures to stop bad guys out there.

[00:20:09] But the big change really is caused by the Watcher.

[00:20:13] He saves Khoi Yun-Fan from being thrown off the train.

[00:20:18] Now, because of little Easter eggs and little touches in there, and again, as comic fans, the character of Khoi Yun-Fan is actually a character from Marvel Comics.

[00:20:27] There's a little reference from Kate Bishop where she is watching him train and saying, oh, that kid's got an iron fist, doesn't he?

[00:20:33] Yeah, she says the kid has some iron fists on him practicing where he's telling the story and he's showing his martial art move.

[00:20:42] And I think it was Drunken Wasp Sting.

[00:20:44] You asked me to show that one.

[00:20:45] Yeah.

[00:20:46] And that, yeah, she says he has some iron fists on him.

[00:20:51] And I think she says, you know, you might be rivaled there, Shang-Chi, with your martial arts.

[00:20:57] It's a great reference.

[00:20:58] Love it.

[00:20:59] I love the fact that we see him doing a number of different martial art moves and giving them names, which you don't really see Shang-Chi doing.

[00:21:06] That's true.

[00:21:07] It's a very iron fist thing.

[00:21:08] Yeah.

[00:21:09] It's the change, you know, in the same way, because we're talking about potential here.

[00:21:13] Yeah.

[00:21:13] Because no one's saying Khoi Yun-Fan is the iron fist.

[00:21:19] Mm-hmm.

[00:21:19] And it's just the reference of look at those iron fists that he's got.

[00:21:25] Exactly.

[00:21:25] You know, with lowercase I and lowercase F.

[00:21:29] That's right.

[00:21:29] But it is also that, you know, all the heroes moving to this new world at this time in the Western world is really interesting.

[00:21:41] And it kind of makes sense because the Watcher talks about how, you know, in this hostile frontier land.

[00:21:49] Yeah.

[00:21:49] And, you know, yes, there's really bad people here, but it also brings people rising to the top like cream.

[00:21:59] Yes.

[00:21:59] You know, that are good and fight for bettering other people.

[00:22:06] Yeah.

[00:22:06] And I like that, you know, in terms of referencing.

[00:22:08] So actually, Khoi Yun-Fan is taking inspiration from Shang-Chi.

[00:22:13] Exactly.

[00:22:13] And, you know, you see that in him watching the big fight sequence with the hood and trying to distract, you know, when Shang-Chi has kind of been beaten to the floor.

[00:22:26] Mm-hmm.

[00:22:26] And I have to say, that whole fight sequence I thought was absolutely fantastic.

[00:22:30] And I love that then how halfway through you see the magic element of the hood where it effectively allows Xiaoling to disappear and become invisible.

[00:22:39] Yeah.

[00:22:39] And then having Shang-Chi having to use his heightened senses to hear the footprints in the snow.

[00:22:45] So, yeah, I absolutely loved that whole fight sequence.

[00:22:48] And I like that in his own way.

[00:22:51] Yun-Fan is trying to help his heroes here in this moment.

[00:22:56] And in terms of the Watcher having saved Kai Yun-Fan, you know, in this instance, the Watcher actually gives him a helping hand, literally with a little flick that knocks the two guards that have gone after him on the orders of Sonny Birch off the train.

[00:23:18] It feels like a bigger interference than him talking to Riri Williams and encouraging her, I feel.

[00:23:24] A little bit bigger.

[00:23:25] He actually kills two other people and saved the life of Kai Yun-Fan.

[00:23:29] Yeah.

[00:23:30] And he's also saying that, you know, in a sense, in his own way, Kai Yun-Fan is enacting his own heroic moment here.

[00:23:37] And the Watcher is wanting to give that heroic moment to Kai Yun-Fan.

[00:23:44] Yeah.

[00:23:44] And to encourage that heroism, you know, and to build on, you know, his respect.

[00:23:55] And how he looks up to the likes of Shang-Chi and Hawkeye.

[00:23:59] Yeah.

[00:23:59] So, it's kind of almost like the Watcher, it is more physical.

[00:24:04] Yeah.

[00:24:04] But it's also like saying, I want him to become a hero as well.

[00:24:09] And this will help cement that because he's, this is like his first battle in a sense.

[00:24:14] Well, yeah.

[00:24:15] He also would have been dead because he would have been thrown from the train.

[00:24:18] So, what he says in the kind of wrap up, I suppose, at the end is maybe this was the story of the creation of a new hero in Kai Yun-Fan.

[00:24:28] Because what we haven't really mentioned is that this all was actually lost for Shang-Chi and for Kate Bishop until Kai rang the bell.

[00:24:37] Yeah.

[00:24:37] Because she was about to be taken over by Sonny's hypnosis, I guess, through the watch that he's using.

[00:24:44] The persuasion tech, as he calls it, Sonny Birch.

[00:24:47] I quite like that.

[00:24:48] Yeah.

[00:24:48] The persuasion tech, which is this hypnotic sort of calming jingle that kind of hypnotizes and entrances.

[00:24:58] He calls it the songs like an earworm.

[00:25:00] It boils into your head and takes over.

[00:25:04] Exactly.

[00:25:04] And I kind of like that idea.

[00:25:07] Yeah.

[00:25:08] Of what was happening.

[00:25:08] But you're right.

[00:25:09] Like with Kai ringing the train bell, it interrupts that jingle, which pulls Kate Bishop out of the start of that trance.

[00:25:20] And it means that she's able to take out Sonny Birch.

[00:25:24] But it also gives Shang-Chi, in a sense, the time to regroup when he's kind of at his weakest moment in the fight, when he's kind of on his back.

[00:25:35] And is able to sort of just give him that moment for him to sort of take the fight again and take it to the hood.

[00:25:46] And then interestingly, the piece actually ends in a reasonably dark way again, where we have Kate Bishop taking aim and killing Xia Ling.

[00:25:57] Not knowing that it's the sister of Shang-Chi that Shang-Chi spent all these years looking for.

[00:26:01] She shoots her.

[00:26:02] She does.

[00:26:04] And I think that's because, like, you're still slightly unsure whether she's going to use the dagger from the rope to actually take out Shang-Chi.

[00:26:16] Yeah.

[00:26:17] Until the shot is gone, I'm there thinking, yes, she's not, you know, she's not going to succumb and kill her own brother.

[00:26:25] You know, the plea that Shang-Chi is making to her is, I can't kill you and you can't kill me, effectively.

[00:26:34] And is there sort of on his knees with his neck brandished.

[00:26:38] So to say, you know, go ahead if that's what you must do.

[00:26:43] But I can't kill you.

[00:26:45] Yeah.

[00:26:45] And I don't believe you'll kill me.

[00:26:47] So I kind of feel she wasn't going to.

[00:26:51] But then the shot happens.

[00:26:53] You kind of it's a bit mysterious, really.

[00:26:56] And it is to what extent has the corrupting power of the hood sort of taken root with her because she has taken it off.

[00:27:05] It was knocked off.

[00:27:06] And you see the scars starting to fade.

[00:27:09] So, again, that's what also persuaded me to think that she wouldn't have actually done it.

[00:27:16] It was almost like a bang on the table.

[00:27:19] You know, it was like a release of energy.

[00:27:23] But she wasn't going to kill him.

[00:27:25] But nonetheless, she was still striking in that way.

[00:27:27] So who knows?

[00:27:28] But Kate Bishop, yeah, kills her.

[00:27:31] And it's interesting because she knows at this stage that it's not the hood that kills her parents, that it was Sonny Birch.

[00:27:39] Yes.

[00:27:39] And she chooses not to kill Sonny Birch but knock him out because she wants justice and killing would be too quick and fast for him.

[00:27:48] She wants to make him suffer.

[00:27:50] And yet she doesn't kind of, given that she is a sharpshooter, she doesn't like take out the hand with the knife in or the leg.

[00:28:01] Right.

[00:28:01] Do you know?

[00:28:02] Yeah.

[00:28:02] It's kind of like that issue sometimes with movie cops where they just go in and they kill rather than like trying to sort of disable.

[00:28:10] Yeah.

[00:28:10] With a shot through the leg or a shot through the arm or shoulder rather than to kill.

[00:28:15] And I wondered, you know, she chose to take a kill shot here.

[00:28:19] Now maybe that was just purely to save.

[00:28:21] And that's why I think she probably was still going in for the kill because I don't think Kate Bishop would necessarily have done that.

[00:28:31] So, yeah, as I say, it's still a bit of a mystery.

[00:28:35] I think in this case, you're right.

[00:28:36] She went for the kill shot because she felt that the hood was going to kill Shang-Chi.

[00:28:42] And she wasn't privy to any of the conversations about who this character was.

[00:28:45] She doesn't know it's Xia Ling until Shang-Chi calls out afterwards, my sister, you've killed my sister.

[00:28:50] So she believes Shang-Chi has been bested, I guess, by the hood when he went in to have that discussion with them.

[00:28:58] And then she feels this is the only chance to stop him from being killed.

[00:29:02] So she pulls the gun and shoots him.

[00:29:04] And then finds out that it's Shang-Chi's sister.

[00:29:08] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:29:09] And then I suppose the other final twist is that the Watchers catch up with the Watcher.

[00:29:14] Yeah, the eminence and the incarnate and the executioner catch up to the Watcher and effectively contain him, imprison him.

[00:29:26] And, you know, say your interferences can no longer go unanswered as he's pinned to sort of the fifth dimension kind of wall.

[00:29:36] Yes.

[00:29:37] And but you see as well, three of the shards breaking and from that kind of observation post between universes.

[00:29:45] Yeah.

[00:29:45] And falling into one of the universes.

[00:29:49] So, yeah, really cool.

[00:29:51] Absolutely.

[00:29:52] Absolutely.

[00:29:52] So that's, I guess, the overarching story for for the season is going to continue the trial of the Watcher, I guess.

[00:29:57] I think the other interesting thing as well is, you know, the hood, you know, seemingly floats away a bit more under its own steam.

[00:30:09] But ultimately, at the moment, is not taken up by another, is on the wind, so to speak.

[00:30:16] Yes.

[00:30:17] Like a leaf.

[00:30:18] And but yes, also not because there seems to be a bit more purposeful direction of travel for the hood.

[00:30:27] But I love that.

[00:30:28] It's very cool.

[00:30:28] And since we're going under its own steam.

[00:30:31] Yeah.

[00:30:31] I really enjoyed that little touch there as well.

[00:30:34] Yeah.

[00:30:35] Any notes from the episode?

[00:30:37] No, I think we've covered everything that I wanted to cover in the episode.

[00:30:40] Excellent.

[00:30:41] Just for me, it was just, again, the ghost train.

[00:30:44] I kind of like that notion.

[00:30:45] It was a bit Scooby Doo.

[00:30:47] But I like the fact that it was Kai Yong Fan who sort of, you know, manages to survive his villages or the mining settlement as run in with the hood.

[00:31:03] You know, it feels slightly ashamed that he has survived this and his father has been taken port.

[00:31:10] And it's giving the intel to Shang-Chi and Hawkeye who feel as though they've been chasing their tails a bit.

[00:31:18] You know, the hood's hugely elusive, almost ghost-like in and of their cells.

[00:31:24] You know, but they do say Walker's intel was good, but he's gone again.

[00:31:29] And this talk of the ghost train, they take up from Yong Fan.

[00:31:36] And again, as I say, I kind of like that almost Scooby Doo element to it of the, you know, the mystery.

[00:31:44] Rather than the mystery mobile, it's the mystery train, you know.

[00:31:47] How else would you describe it?

[00:31:49] The train is running but not on tracks.

[00:31:52] And, you know, it's the 1800s.

[00:31:53] That's not possible at all.

[00:31:55] Exactly, exactly.

[00:31:55] It's not possible there either.

[00:31:57] Although Shang-Chi immediately goes, oh, it's stock tech.

[00:32:01] Oh, okay.

[00:32:02] Like he does kind of, you know, he also says tarnation as well as he's looking down.

[00:32:09] But I think he notices that it's kind of like a stock tech.

[00:32:13] Interesting.

[00:32:14] I didn't notice that.

[00:32:15] So, yes, it could be almost like steampunk type of thing or electropunk or, you know, that kind of thing about this.

[00:32:25] But it was very cool.

[00:32:26] I did like that notion of the ghost mystery as well surrounding the hood, you know.

[00:32:34] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:32:35] Absolutely.

[00:32:36] But that's all from me.

[00:32:38] So, Derek, do you defend episode six?

[00:32:41] What if 1872?

[00:32:43] Yeah, I really, really enjoyed this episode.

[00:32:46] And I actually did have a bit of trepidation coming into it.

[00:32:48] John knows this.

[00:32:50] Apart from really badly written comedies, my second least favorite genre of movie is westerns.

[00:32:56] I can't stand them.

[00:32:57] Even the great ones bore me to tears.

[00:33:00] So shocking.

[00:33:01] I know.

[00:33:02] I know.

[00:33:02] But taking my favorite character, my favorite recent character in Marvel, Shang-Chi, and saying he was going to be in a western.

[00:33:09] This is the one I was going, I hope it's done well because I want to see more of Shang-Chi.

[00:33:14] I wish they had a contemporary story with him.

[00:33:16] But actually, it worked out really well.

[00:33:18] The choices they made, like they made with last episode, the choices of characters that they put together here are so interesting.

[00:33:25] They work really, really well, despite none of them having screen time before in any of the movies.

[00:33:30] So that's great.

[00:33:32] That idea of putting characters from across the MCU into one story that works really well together is awesome.

[00:33:39] So that's one of the big pleasures for this season of What If? as well.

[00:33:44] So I've really been enjoying it.

[00:33:46] So I highly defend this episode.

[00:33:48] How about yourself, John?

[00:33:49] Yep.

[00:33:49] I really defend this episode of What If?

[00:33:52] I'd give it five drunken wasp bull stings out of five.

[00:33:58] Yeah.

[00:33:58] I just absolutely kind of love this.

[00:34:01] I love the repulsor lift train, you know, the tale of the ghost train coming from Ka Jung-fan.

[00:34:11] I love the fact that there is a potential Iron Fist introduction here at the Immortal Iron Fist being one of my favorite sort of comic characters as well.

[00:34:20] So I'm really, really hyped that this animated Ka Jung-fan with good form and who has some Iron Fists on him could potentially be the Iron Fist.

[00:34:34] Not only did it have potential Iron Fists, it had the actual hood, which I'm really excited for.

[00:34:40] I love how this has been introduced here.

[00:34:45] I don't know how they were going to introduce it to the Iron Heart TV show, but certainly I think this is a great little introduction to the hood.

[00:34:56] Loved all that.

[00:34:58] Shang-Chi, again, equally one of my, one of the characters I really have adored from the more recent movies.

[00:35:04] So this fitted really nicely together for me.

[00:35:07] And, you know, setting it in 1872 is, again, just sort of riffing off the 1602 idea.

[00:35:16] I don't mind cowboys and westerns in the slightest.

[00:35:19] So this really, really hit home for me.

[00:35:23] And again, another little sort of, you know, a more serious interference by the Watcher that finally gets him confronted with his superiors, I guess.

[00:35:37] Yes, that's what I say.

[00:35:38] And yeah, what do those three shards falling through space mean?

[00:35:43] So really good.

[00:35:44] Five drunken wasp ball stings out of five.

[00:35:49] Fantastic.

[00:35:49] That's a very high rating there for this episode.

[00:35:51] Really good.

[00:35:53] See, this is a season of many different types of episodes.

[00:35:57] And when you do something really good to hit the ball out of the park like they did here, well worth it.

[00:36:02] Yeah, definitely.

[00:36:03] Let's get on to some multiversal messages or feedback from our wonderful fellow defenders.

[00:36:08] We'll start off with an email in from Coffee and Vodka who says,

[00:36:11] Greetings, fellow saddle sword defenders.

[00:36:13] A nice standard western with a techie twist and references of characters past and future.

[00:36:18] Solid bare bones action with unsurprising surprises.

[00:36:47] This is well telegraphed.

[00:36:50] Coffee and Vodka.

[00:36:52] That's one that we didn't mention.

[00:36:53] One of the things I really, really liked about this episode with that opening fight with where Shang-Chi takes off his hat.

[00:36:59] And by the time it's landed on the floor, everybody's been beaten.

[00:37:01] That's a real classic western thing as well.

[00:37:04] But also the follow up to it with Sonny where he goes, will somebody hold my hat?

[00:37:08] And instantly Sonny goes, there's no need for fighting here.

[00:37:11] Yeah, yeah.

[00:37:11] No, exactly.

[00:37:12] He has heard the reputation of Shang-Chi in his hat.

[00:37:15] Yeah, exactly.

[00:37:16] Yeah.

[00:37:16] Great stuff, Coffee and Vodka.

[00:37:18] Really glad you enjoyed this episode.

[00:37:21] Yes, that's true actually.

[00:37:23] The Tesseract.

[00:37:23] It's a Tesseract repulsor on the train.

[00:37:26] It is.

[00:37:27] Certainly.

[00:37:27] It glows blue.

[00:37:29] Well, it glows blue, yeah.

[00:37:30] Certainly.

[00:37:30] There's a Tesseract feel about it for sure.

[00:37:33] Yeah, and I think that whole thing, as you say, of the What If Inception with Walter Gargans playing Sonny Birch, playing the Ringmaster.

[00:37:42] And of course, the Ringmaster does manipulate people's minds in the comics as well.

[00:37:49] That's a nice catch.

[00:37:50] That's a nice catch for you.

[00:37:52] Coffee and Vodka.

[00:37:53] Very interesting.

[00:37:54] Excellent stuff.

[00:37:54] Thanks so much for that, Coffee and Vodka.

[00:37:55] Let's head on over to Facebook, John.

[00:37:58] Yes.

[00:37:58] First up, Heather Wallace, who says,

[00:38:01] A good episode.

[00:38:02] Although I'm confused about what or who the original Hood was.

[00:38:06] Did Xiaoling have supernatural powers or were they in the cloak?

[00:38:10] At last, no platitudes, but the Watcher is in big trouble.

[00:38:14] Thanks so much, Heather.

[00:38:16] And I think you're right here.

[00:38:18] I think maybe that is something that doesn't come across around the Hood.

[00:38:25] That in and of itself, it is the cloak that corrupts the wearer of the Hood.

[00:38:32] Yes.

[00:38:32] The hooded cloak.

[00:38:34] It's sentient and evil.

[00:38:35] Yes.

[00:38:35] And it is supernatural powers.

[00:38:38] And so it imbues those powers to the wearer of the Hood.

[00:38:46] So it's a great question.

[00:38:49] And it's a natural one to ask.

[00:38:51] So in many respects, the original Hood is not important.

[00:38:55] The person who came before Xiaoling.

[00:38:58] Xiaoling, it's simply that however it was done,

[00:39:03] and it may be Xiaoling was chosen,

[00:39:08] that she now has the cloak and is the Hood.

[00:39:12] Yeah.

[00:39:13] Yeah.

[00:39:13] And so, yeah, great stuff.

[00:39:15] I definitely think I'll be rereading Brian K. Vaughan's run on the Hood.

[00:39:19] I think it was a five-issue series, wasn't it?

[00:39:21] Five or six, yeah.

[00:39:22] Was it Marvel Max or was it regular Marvel Universe?

[00:39:24] It was.

[00:39:24] It was Marvel Max.

[00:39:25] Excellent.

[00:39:26] Okay.

[00:39:26] Yeah.

[00:39:27] Got to check that out again.

[00:39:28] So really good.

[00:39:30] Links into a few of my favorite characters.

[00:39:32] So, yes.

[00:39:33] Very good.

[00:39:33] Very good.

[00:39:34] Just give a few hints.

[00:39:35] Uh-huh.

[00:39:36] Absolutely.

[00:39:37] Thanks, Heather.

[00:39:38] Also on Facebook, Victor Von Doom says,

[00:39:40] I love a Western, especially one with Walton Goggins in the villain role.

[00:39:43] Absolutely, Victor.

[00:39:44] Me too, actually.

[00:39:46] Like old Goggins, to be honest.

[00:39:48] Yeah, it's great.

[00:39:49] Yeah.

[00:39:50] Paul Chien-Chi Lee says,

[00:39:51] I like the representation,

[00:39:53] though it's weird to have only two women characters for the whole episode.

[00:39:57] The Old West was not just men,

[00:39:59] though the railroad camps would definitely have been almost exclusively male.

[00:40:04] I like having the kid,

[00:40:05] but his placement is at odds with the historical reality of the demographics of the Chinese workers who came to work, the gold mines, and then the railroad.

[00:40:14] It would have made more sense for Jung-Fan to be closer to a teenager.

[00:40:19] Okay.

[00:40:19] I guess my short review is that I liked the episode, but had trouble with all the lore that got thrown in.

[00:40:25] Yeah, I think there's quite a lot of lore there, certainly around the hood, I think.

[00:40:29] You know, because I think, as Heather said, it's like, you know, is something about the original person that inhabited it?

[00:40:36] Was it them?

[00:40:37] You know, you think it's to do with the person.

[00:40:39] And I think in terms of the age aspect, yeah, I just kind of assumed that Kai-Yong-Fan was just a son of one of the workers,

[00:40:52] rather than working on the railroad.

[00:40:54] Yeah, I think I probably thought he didn't have a mom, and that his dad had had to bring him with him.

[00:41:00] Yeah.

[00:41:01] And he was staying behind at their village or their town, I think.

[00:41:06] That was my understanding.

[00:41:09] And also because the character is based on a comic book character, I think they had to have him at that age,

[00:41:14] because the character in the comics is about eight or nine years later, he comes out and is the immortal Iron Fist in the comics.

[00:41:20] So I think they made him a young kid so that they could have that latter.

[00:41:23] I guess.

[00:41:24] Yeah, yeah.

[00:41:25] For the character in the 1800s.

[00:41:27] But really glad you liked the episode, Paul.

[00:41:29] Absolutely.

[00:41:36] It's a real reality around the Chinese workers who came to work both in the mines looking for gold,

[00:41:43] but also the railroad.

[00:41:44] And the railroad.

[00:41:45] Really interesting.

[00:41:46] Yeah.

[00:41:46] Absolutely.

[00:41:47] Thanks, Paul.

[00:41:48] Dr. Bob Phillips says,

[00:41:49] What if Doctor Strange's cloak had an evil twin and was found in 1872 Wild West of America?

[00:41:54] Could have been a rubbish and spoiler-filled version of this one's title.

[00:41:58] This sits high on my list of the series, expands characters underused before, sets up a universe's spin-offs,

[00:42:04] and means we won't be getting the Netflix incarnation of Iron Fist, which has to be on every universe's wish list.

[00:42:10] But what has our watcher done that's so wrong?

[00:42:14] Ooh, interesting.

[00:42:16] Yeah, thanks very much for that, Dr. Bob.

[00:42:18] I still am a little bit of a defender for the Iron Fist Netflix series.

[00:42:22] Oh, me too.

[00:42:22] I do think it'll be very different when we see Iron Fist back in the future,

[00:42:26] but I'm not sure they're going to go directly into the 1800s Iron Fist.

[00:42:30] But I still like the Iron Fist.

[00:42:33] But what has the watcher done that's so wrong?

[00:42:35] I think the big thing here, he's spoken to characters before.

[00:42:39] He has moved Peggy Carter throughout multiple different worlds.

[00:42:44] They missed that one.

[00:42:45] The eminence really missed that one.

[00:42:47] But here, I think him specifically keeping a child alive who was definitely going to be caught

[00:42:53] and thrown off the side of that train, and also killing two other people that could have gone on to a life in that world,

[00:43:00] in that multiverse, that's quite a big interference to do.

[00:43:03] Last time with Riri Williams, it felt like it was coming from his heart where he was saying,

[00:43:07] well, I just can't watch this universe die again.

[00:43:10] Here with the watcher, it seemed like he was going, I don't want to see what that kid does.

[00:43:13] Maybe he'll become a hero in the future.

[00:43:15] I want to give him a chance.

[00:43:17] There's enough death that is happening in this world.

[00:43:21] He talks about how cruel this frontier world is.

[00:43:25] And so there's an element of that.

[00:43:26] But I think it's almost like a parental aspiration.

[00:43:30] Yeah, I want to see what this kid may become.

[00:43:35] But it's not even an aspiration.

[00:43:36] It's a manipulation more than anything else.

[00:43:39] He's actually going, I want to change this world completely.

[00:43:41] I'm just going to go and interfere in it rather than choosing to allow, rather than giving the words to Riri to stand up and take on her destiny.

[00:43:50] Here, he's actually making a destiny for a child.

[00:43:53] Agreed.

[00:43:53] But I mean, for me, Dr. Bob, I think, in a sense, what the watcher has done that's so wrong is neither here nor there to the eminence, the incarnate, and the executioner.

[00:44:05] It's that he has interfered.

[00:44:08] Yes.

[00:44:08] Like, it's not a cult, but it's just the rules that they have with their order.

[00:44:14] I guess, like, priests define how they act.

[00:44:18] And part of that action is that they cannot interfere.

[00:44:23] And they should not.

[00:44:24] And so I guess it's just simply the mere act of interference.

[00:44:30] But it is strange.

[00:44:31] Like, I hope they do address the fact of that, you know, with Strange Supreme, it was that Strange could sense.

[00:44:38] And I think with Kaori as well, it was that they knew there was something else there.

[00:44:43] And whether that was just like the mystical planes, that kind of elevation of their consciousness.

[00:44:50] Maybe, yeah.

[00:44:51] But the Peggy Carter one is, you know, the eminence really missed that one.

[00:44:57] They did.

[00:44:58] I mean, they obviously must have just been watching somewhere else.

[00:45:00] Yeah.

[00:45:00] But you also get a sense that they are omnipotent beings that, you know, can watch everywhere all at once.

[00:45:07] Yeah.

[00:45:07] So.

[00:45:08] Exactly.

[00:45:09] Exactly.

[00:45:09] Yeah.

[00:45:10] But good, good spot, Dr. Bob.

[00:45:12] It certainly is as though Dr. Strange Cloak has had an evil twin and has been found in the Wild West.

[00:45:22] That's how I always thought of the hood.

[00:45:24] Ah, very good.

[00:45:25] So that works out really well.

[00:45:26] Yeah.

[00:45:26] Thanks so much for all the feedback for this episode.

[00:45:28] We want to keep sending it in to us.

[00:45:30] We'd love to hear it.

[00:45:31] Pop on over to our Facebook group at facebook.com slash group slash TV podcast industries.

[00:45:35] There's a spoiler post up there for you to pop in your spoiler filled thoughts as you go through the episodes.

[00:45:41] You can also email us to feedback at tvpodcastindustries.com.

[00:45:45] A couple of episodes left to get your thoughts in on the rest of the series of What If, the final season of What If.

[00:45:51] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:45:52] Great feedback from all our fellow defenders.

[00:45:55] Keep it coming in for the final two episodes of What If.

[00:46:00] But yes, thanks so much for joining us, fellow defenders.

[00:46:04] We will be back next time with What If, episode seven from season three, What If, the watcher disappeared.

[00:46:14] Kidnapped, if you will, by Walter Goggins.

[00:46:16] Maybe.

[00:46:17] Maybe.

[00:46:18] We'll see what happens.

[00:46:18] We'll see.

[00:46:19] In that episode.

[00:46:20] But in the meantime, remember as well, fellow defenders, please share the podcast because sharing the podcast is sharing the festive love.

[00:46:28] It is.

[00:46:29] It is.

[00:46:29] Share this podcast or the episode five podcast.

[00:46:34] Don't share the episode four podcast.

[00:46:35] We don't want to get out there that we don't like hair of the duck.

[00:46:39] That's true.

[00:46:39] Yeah.

[00:46:40] Yeah.

[00:46:40] Thanks so much for joining us.

[00:46:41] Talk to you again next time.

[00:46:42] Yeah.

[00:46:42] Thank you, fellow defenders.

[00:46:44] Until episode seven.

[00:46:46] Keep watching.

[00:46:46] Keep listening.

[00:46:47] And of course, keep defending.

[00:46:49] Bye.

[00:46:50] Bye.