The Sandman Chapter 11 Dream of 1000 Cats and Calliope Podcast from TV Podcast Industries

[00:00:00] This is the Sandman Podcast on TV Podcast Industries, we're discussing The Sandman Chapter 11,

[00:00:05] Dream of a Thousand Cats and Calliope.

[00:00:30] We would hunt them

[00:00:33] but they were more delightful to catch than even birds.

[00:00:38] Oh, the joy of those days I saw in his eyes, the game of cat and man.

[00:01:00] Welcome back fellow dreamers to TV Podcast Industries, we're talking about The Sandman Chapter 11, Dream of a Thousand Cats and Calliope.

[00:01:14] I'm one of your hosts Derek.

[00:01:16] Hello there fellow dreamers, I'm one of your other hosts John.

[00:01:19] And rounding out this trio of dreams or nightmares depending on your pun chief.

[00:01:26] I am Chris.

[00:01:27] Welcome back to The Sandman Podcast Chris.

[00:01:30] Thank you, thank you, thank you.

[00:01:31] Again I was gallivanting if you don't listen to some of our other podcasts.

[00:01:36] I was gallivanting around the world, I was in Brazil for some work and essentially the time differences and space time continuum or in this case the dream realm, the realms aligning just did not work for our podcast.

[00:01:50] Yeah, he pretty much missed out on all of the Dull Sice storyline and the serial convention and everything that was going on in there.

[00:01:56] Did you enjoy that arc of The Sandman?

[00:01:59] Again, I think when we kind of kicked off this it was one of my favorites just the idea of a serial convention.

[00:02:08] I am Percy of Frosty's Man back in the day or Coco Pops if I had the chocolatey mood on me.

[00:02:16] But the best way I can quickly, quickly say it is they definitely set up that they want a season two.

[00:02:23] They definitely set up that they need a season two.

[00:02:26] I'm hoping they get a season two but it felt slightly rushed and I think they're rushed

[00:02:33] because they could have given us at least one more episode made this a 12 episode arc

[00:02:38] and given us one or two more two weeks to go into

[00:02:42] some of the further threads that they had kind of started going into.

[00:02:46] So like they didn't give us the episode about his wife in hell, which is from that earlier volume.

[00:02:53] I'm assuming that's been shunted into season two or maybe potentially.

[00:02:58] There's a few bits or pieces that like I would have liked just more some stand-alones

[00:03:04] or kind of just given a bit more time to breathe.

[00:03:07] I think I'm also saying that is because I just want more sandman.

[00:03:10] I think that's more where my brain is.

[00:03:12] I'm like I am being critical because I am annoyed that there is right now a 50-50 chance

[00:03:20] like it is Schrodinger's Sandman.

[00:03:24] There is both more sandman and no more sandman in our future.

[00:03:28] Absolutely and speaking of more sandman, I suppose that's where we get to with this episode

[00:03:32] dream of the thousand cats and khali be this was released two weeks after the original 10 episode run.

[00:03:38] We mentioned on our podcast about about the last episode that episode 10

[00:03:42] that that is the end of the season and this episode was released a couple of weeks later

[00:03:46] as a kind of a bonus episode was called a called a bonus special event with these two

[00:03:50] episodes.

[00:03:51] So the whole intent of these being that they weren't connected into that overall arc

[00:03:55] story, which really was the story of unity,

[00:03:57] concage, which you saw from the first episode to the last episode that was in its entirety

[00:04:02] in those 10 episodes.

[00:04:02] So these are two brand new stories and they follow in the comic books the opposite way

[00:04:07] around weirdly.

[00:04:08] Khali becomes first and then dream of a thousand cats, but they are directly after the doll

[00:04:12] house arc.

[00:04:12] It's exactly how how the comic books end and then go into these before it goes

[00:04:16] into seasons of mist of the next major arc for the comic books.

[00:04:19] So really interesting way to do it.

[00:04:21] I heard Neil Gaiman talk about it on a couple of weeks ago saying that this was

[00:04:26] always the plan.

[00:04:26] This was something that David Escoria had come up with isn't in his original approach

[00:04:31] when they were selling and the Warner Brothers produced Sandman to all of the

[00:04:35] streaming services that it would always be a 10 episode show with one extra

[00:04:39] episode coming out a few weeks or a month or so later as a bonus.

[00:04:43] So so interesting that they kept that that's how they were how they always

[00:04:46] plan to sell it.

[00:04:47] So so an interesting way that definitely it's unique that they do this like

[00:04:51] this is one of the first times I've a bonus episode a bonus piece of our long

[00:04:57] content just just because we have to reward both the fans the actors and

[00:05:03] probably need to bring in when we can talk about it.

[00:05:05] They brought in some voices from other Samman properties or things like that

[00:05:09] which is a nice it's a nice also bow to tie to the wider

[00:05:14] mythos that is the Samman in pop culture entertainment.

[00:05:17] Yeah and maybe just to incorporate some of the more standalone type stories as well.

[00:05:24] So I mean in a sense it follows that structure from the comics as well.

[00:05:29] Absolutely and some and some fan favorites here as well we'll talk about it as we go

[00:05:32] into the individual episodes as to why I suppose but some of these would be issues

[00:05:36] that as Sandman fans you'd hand to friends of yours ago if you want an idea of what

[00:05:41] Samman's like don't want the commitment of reading six or seven issues read this one

[00:05:44] comic and you'll get a feeling as to why as to why people like Samman so I like that they've

[00:05:50] put that on there. So we've all we've just sent off Chris's wife to go and watch the

[00:05:55] Dream of a Thousand Cats for example so it works the same way so maybe Kelly will

[00:06:00] fall in love with Samman now after watching Dream of a Thousand Cats and then wonder

[00:06:03] why the entire season isn't animated. Yeah or why it doesn't have just more cats.

[00:06:07] Exactly, exactly. Quick season of the mist is that the one shot do we also have

[00:06:12] the one shot of Will Shakespeare in that one or is that much later?

[00:06:16] Midsummer Night's Dream is actually the next issue directly after Dream of a Thousand Cats

[00:06:20] so they may start off the second season with Midsummer Night's Dream.

[00:06:24] Or even that could be the bonus episode for next season because that was for me is

[00:06:29] outside of Dream of a Thousand Cats outside of Calliope for me that was always the one that

[00:06:33] was tantalizing it kind of just showing how much impact he had in the world

[00:06:39] in a way that you don't think which is and I'm not going to spoil it but it's

[00:06:44] to do with we've already met Will Shakespeare in season one so it's a nice tie-in as well

[00:06:51] they don't have to kind of help too much but it is very very good that's the one I usually

[00:06:55] send to people who are a bit too, comics are too low bro. They're not fine out like

[00:07:01] will Shakespeare like well actually. Why is Chris using the impression voice

[00:07:05] that he uses for you John? I have no idea. I love comics. I know you do that's why it wasn't

[00:07:12] supposed to be you. I'm not high brow. Yes. I'm medium brow. Or bushy brow. No I'm definitely

[00:07:19] not bushy brow I don't have caterpillars. Right. Mine are shaped. I wish. As usual we have

[00:07:27] gone off track again before we even started so let's get into our discussion about Dream

[00:07:32] of the Thousand Cats the first of the two parts of this episode of The Sandman. If you have any

[00:07:36] thoughts about The Sandman and this is our final episode about about the show until we come back

[00:07:41] hopefully with season two but you can email us two feedback at tvpodcastindustries.com with

[00:07:46] any thoughts that you may have about the overall season we'd love to hear anything you haven't

[00:07:49] gotten into so far over the course of the season and do make sure you subscribe to the

[00:07:53] podcast the main podcast feed is available through TV podcast industries just search that on

[00:07:57] any podcast capture or you can go to our website at tvpodcastindustries.com and subscribe there

[00:08:02] we cover loads and loads of shows and TV podcast industries including Good Omens which myself and

[00:08:07] John did from Neil Gaiman and Terry Pratchett which was on Prime Video last year we will be

[00:08:13] covering Good Omens season two of course when that comes out in Prime Video as well and maybe

[00:08:16] even Anansi Boys also coming from Neil Gaiman over on Prime Video which would be very cool to

[00:08:21] watch. I missed that announcement. How the hell did I miss that one? Yeah finished filming

[00:08:25] and everything so I think it's coming out before Good Omens 2. Oh my god. Yeah. Okay I'm

[00:08:33] yeah interesting. And part of the reason as we mentioned before if Netflix don't pick up

[00:08:38] the second season of Sandman everything that Neil Gaiman has done seems to be over on Prime

[00:08:43] Video so it seems logical that that will be the place for including all of the audible

[00:08:48] Sandman dramas being on the Amazon app audible so very likely that that's where

[00:08:53] he'll be going with season two of Sandman if Netflix don't get their fingers out. Yes all hail

[00:08:59] Jeff Bezos our cultural saving overlord who actually likes Neil Gaiman properties please save

[00:09:06] the Sandman. Absolutely absolutely right let's get into it let's talk about the dream of a

[00:09:11] thousand cats once again executive producers for the show are Alan Heinberg Neil Gaiman and

[00:09:15] David Escorer dream of a thousand cats and Calliope were both actually written by the same

[00:09:20] writer Catherine Smith McMullen and dream of a thousand cats the animation was directed by

[00:09:25] Hiska Hulzing so John do you want to tell us what they gave us with your synopsis for the

[00:09:31] dream of a thousand cats sure at night a Siamese cat holds a gathering of other cats at the

[00:09:37] local graveyard to tell her hope for cats her experiences and the story about her encounter

[00:09:43] with Morpheus in the dreaming a long time ago she met a Tomcat with whom she gave

[00:09:48] birth to a litter of mixed breed kittens this displeased her owners who took the kittens and

[00:09:53] threw them into a river traumatizing the Siamese cat in desperation the cat dreamed to get answers

[00:09:59] for this cruel act and revelation of what to do as she meets Morpheus in the form of a black

[00:10:05] cat and begged him for a solution Morpheus presented her with a parallel universe in

[00:10:11] which cats were the dominant species over humans until the humans fought back by dreaming

[00:10:17] recreating reality and turning their masters into the cats that mankind sees them as today

[00:10:24] upon finishing her story the Siamese cat urges the other cats to perform the same enlightenment

[00:10:30] so that they may reclaim their status as the rulers of the earth now we're all

[00:10:36] cat owners here at tv podcast industries if our fellow dreamers want to have a look at our

[00:10:41] at our cover photo we do have we have even included in that a cat because occasionally when

[00:10:48] we record you'll hear one of our cats meowing in the background so they pay as much part

[00:10:54] in our podcast as we do sometimes and so overall what did you think of the idea John you are

[00:10:59] the person new to Sandman so myself Chris have read this story before what did you think of

[00:11:03] this idea of having the dream of cats effectively well there is that sort of meme i think going

[00:11:10] around where you see a little cat who pretends that he's riding a bike and then crashes off

[00:11:15] i think i think we've all seen that kind of which is really hilarious so you know there's

[00:11:21] something going on when these cats sort of get really relaxed and this notion that you know

[00:11:26] this other reality where cats are dominant or even like the future armor episode with the cats

[00:11:37] where they're kind of you know actually mind controlling everyone so even you know all this

[00:11:42] really sort of fits with me but i really liked how i mean like in a sense just how this comes

[00:11:51] about with this Siamese cat because of such a cruel act from like basically an ass really and

[00:12:00] like i thought that was really sad quite frankly yeah like it the depiction you know was really

[00:12:06] really awful that just because it was mixed breed and kittens that then well let's drown them

[00:12:15] i like i thought so i like that this Siamese cat you know effectively is fighting back against

[00:12:24] these owners who really shouldn't own any animals if that's all they're viewing it out so

[00:12:30] okay oh she's a pure breed she can possibly breed with other cats exactly so i like

[00:12:36] you know in that sense really enjoyed it and i just really enjoyed that in effect

[00:12:42] the the reverse has happened previously with humans not wanting to be

[00:12:49] haunted effectively and having this same kind of enlightenment so i love this i love how you

[00:12:58] know as i say we see our cats sort of basically fast asleep for most of the day quite frankly so

[00:13:06] so what is happening in in their old little brains i think we all know there's something

[00:13:10] else going on behind the ride yeah riding a bike and then crashing it or dreaming of the time

[00:13:16] they were ruling the planet how about yourself chris what how do you think this was executed

[00:13:20] from the story that you read before how do you think of the of how it was translated to the

[00:13:24] screen from a translation point of view i loved it the animation was as much as i should say

[00:13:32] the voices were spot on and i think that's more because they went into the some of the

[00:13:37] previous Neil Gaiman kind of universe of who can we grab and who would be happy to lend their

[00:13:45] voice to another Neil Gaiman property well let's yeah let's talk about that that was going to be

[00:13:49] one of my later points about the cast themselves but um but just one thing before we go into it

[00:13:54] one of the interesting things is all of this cast signed up under the provisor that they will

[00:13:57] be allowed to play another role in the future sand man if they sign up for the voice work on

[00:14:02] here so everybody here has the opportunity to appear again in the future just because they're

[00:14:07] on here doesn't mean that's the only appearance that they'll make excellent which i love but you

[00:14:12] want to talk about the cast chris yeah yeah so you've got david tenon's you've got neil gaiman

[00:14:17] himself you've got um the other lord of dreams none other than james maca boy yes which i absolutely

[00:14:26] loved yes sandra oh you have rosy day you've joe lyset as well and even georgia tenon

[00:14:33] herself she's in there as well and then of course the other angel that lights neil gaiman's life

[00:14:40] no then michael sheen yes yes really cool isn't it that the idea that they've got the original couple

[00:14:45] who own the kitten is uh are david and georgia tenon so they're the loving couple who take care

[00:14:50] of the yeah take care of their baby kitten and wonder what's going on in the mind uh michael

[00:14:54] sheen lana lundberg who are husband and wife as well in real life michael sheen also in good

[00:14:59] omens with david tenon they're the owners of the of the siamese cat so the little switch up there

[00:15:05] being that michael sheen plays the angel and uh and david tenon normally plays the devil so they

[00:15:10] switch up to be the nice and evil versions of themselves which i like again i think that's a

[00:15:15] really good touch but yes james maca boy the voice of morpheus in the the wonderful audios

[00:15:20] audibles of uh of sandman so great to have him over there as well um playing kind of jesus

[00:15:26] i think i didn't recognize james maca boy's voices at all in this i have to i have to say

[00:15:33] um so i i have no idea what jesus was unless it was was it the narration with the the cats

[00:15:44] i don't know i i'd say i have no idea where he came in james maca boy was the human who

[00:15:49] stood up and told everybody to dream the dream that the cats were no longer the leaders that

[00:15:53] the dream that the humans would be i really didn't recognize uh james maca boy i think after

[00:15:58] listening to uh 20 hours of the audibles i recognize james maca boy's voice pretty well

[00:16:03] now but i'm guessing as well because it wasn't scottish so yes yes he was using his more morpheus

[00:16:08] voice okay there we go there we go that's why yeah and sandro as the as the siamese cat being the

[00:16:14] kind of um central voice throughout the story was really good really really enjoyed i didn't

[00:16:20] recognize sandro's voice either i'm very cool very cool sandro or michael sheen as the cruel arse

[00:16:26] actually you see so there we go there you go good stuff my hearing is obviously on the blink

[00:16:32] fellow dreamers as i say as i say the good news though uh all of these actors could be back

[00:16:38] in the future for uh for roles in there and another season of uh of sand man i can see a few

[00:16:43] roles that could be open for for those excellent actors as well so that'll be oh my god destiny

[00:16:51] although they do have a great um actor cast as destiny in the in the audibles we might see in

[00:16:56] the show but uh but back to the dream of a thousand cats as a storyline itself uh really like this i love

[00:17:02] i love this concept as we've mentioned all being cat owners all knowing that there's something going

[00:17:06] on behind the eyes of cats i love that there's this idea that in the past they uh they did

[00:17:12] rule the world but what i like what i like about the um the storyline itself is how much

[00:17:18] the saimi's cat has gone through to get this information you know she's gone through her

[00:17:21] dreams but she uh she goes through this this trial almost in order to get this information

[00:17:27] from the lord of dreams and i think that's a really interesting idea so she's gone through this whole

[00:17:33] this whole trial and then she's bringing the story to the rest of the cats around the world

[00:17:37] we see a moment where she's in paris and she's and she's obviously in the uk at the

[00:17:43] at the start of this episode so she's traveled around at least europe uh spreading the word um

[00:17:48] but the twist on it that morpheus tells her is the human's dream that it was always this way

[00:17:54] so it's not that it that many thousands of years ago the cats did rule the world it's that the

[00:18:02] humans dream that it always was this way so you'll never find evidence that the world of

[00:18:07] cats being rulers existed but it did exist it's kind of the the idea i love that little

[00:18:12] twist on it i the the worst part you just brought up the the the paris aspect and this is where my

[00:18:19] brain goes okay i literally went how did she get there like i don't just believe it i just went

[00:18:27] i really need to see her jump onto a boat or onto a plane stow away i'm just like give me just

[00:18:33] give me the functional details in the logistics because you know that really makes the fantastical

[00:18:39] seem more real you've just given two options there chris it could have been either of those

[00:18:43] two options i know but i i just want to know which i'm now more like in the dream of a thousand

[00:18:47] cats how does the cat the prophet get around the world see this is the thing again being cat

[00:18:53] owners or being people at that watch cats certainly i have seen a cat on the dart on a train in

[00:19:00] ireland i've seen a cat get off a train on its own onto a onto a train station and you're

[00:19:05] going how did that cat get on here and why is it getting off at this train station so in this

[00:19:11] universe this animated show i could kind of get this idea that a cat might have hopped on to

[00:19:16] uh the train across the urinal and everybody just assumes its owner is on board the train

[00:19:20] and then it just hops off in paris you know that's i i can kind of see it this is a very

[00:19:24] smart siamese cat here you know i hope so i hope so but see it would have been fun just

[00:19:29] seeing that logistics in animated form you know that's cat taking around the world in 80 days

[00:19:35] chris is all about the excitement and entertainment of logistics in animation well that's it yeah but

[00:19:41] i love as well how you know the cats as rulers but i really like how the siamese cat you know say

[00:19:47] goes through this sort of trek to get to morpheus to get that revelation but it's it's also the

[00:19:54] the bit before it's the cruelty showed to her kittens by the owner you know and the there's a

[00:20:01] realization from the siamese cat with you know i lived in their world and the price to pay was

[00:20:06] acceptable which was to show them affection and they will feed me water me shelter me and so on

[00:20:12] but then this realization that she's lied to herself and because we're subordinate to humanity

[00:20:23] and you know and like the whole thing where she feels her kittens drowning was like really really

[00:20:30] sad and and so you know the praying and dreaming to enter the the dreaming effectively and then

[00:20:37] go through this ordeal where you know um she's saying about how you know i walked to the through

[00:20:43] the cold the wet the void and so until reaching uh sort of lord kitty uh morpheus and the i'm guessing

[00:20:53] this revelation about how she might be able to change their their predicament but i also love that

[00:21:01] you know all the cats in the graveyard it's the little kitten who is you know i believe all

[00:21:08] the other ones were a little skeptical just like well yeah she did provide a few laughs you

[00:21:12] know so it's you know that the cats aren't sort of buying in and it but it just needs enough of them so

[00:21:21] the more the more tours she does of graveyards and and i guess fish markets and so on then the more

[00:21:29] the dreams sort of gain that power from the kitties absolutely that's the hope but i love that the

[00:21:34] the gray cat who's the other uh central cat in the story i love that he's kind of going i don't

[00:21:38] care who it is whether a god prophet or or anybody else trying to convince to convince a thousand cats

[00:21:44] to do the exact same thing at the exact same time is impossible yeah hurting cats is difficult enough

[00:21:50] exactly but i love that the little kittens there on its back at the end fast asleep doing the same

[00:21:59] actions as we see as morpheus shows one of the cats playing with a human before sort of

[00:22:07] chomping down yeah and and you have david tenants can actually go oh look at it it's so cute

[00:22:15] as it snaps in the air and you know it's got a human in the space yeah it's really good um

[00:22:20] very quickly speaking of the kittens the that little short 30 seconds not even 10 seconds bit

[00:22:26] where the the the prophet is traversing the dreamscape to get through but goes through the

[00:22:32] the forest of nightmares of the those who came before and she says she hears um she hears the

[00:22:39] voices of her her children calling her yeah and you have these baby meows i know and i was like

[00:22:46] oh it's heartbreaking i know these little willow wisps kind of floating in the air circling

[00:22:51] and i was just like that was the one where the the animation slash um the the audio um

[00:23:00] kind of put together for this episode kind of retweets me because

[00:23:04] that when the kittens are drowned and she said she feels them kind of clawing and gasping and

[00:23:12] all that there's very very subtle meows and screams kittens very subtle um kind of

[00:23:21] gurgling if you want to call it that and sloshing of water um and it's just

[00:23:27] heartbreaking it is yeah absolutely yeah absolutely um yeah i know an interesting

[00:23:33] horror to start off uh the month of october with um yes for us um any other notes any

[00:23:38] other thoughts on the episode uh for for you guys before we close out that discussion on the

[00:23:42] dream of thousand cats the only thing i'll ask is derrick do you think there is another animated

[00:23:47] episode in the future and if so what do you think it might be

[00:23:51] oof i can see them doing it this is the this is probably the most uh difficult thing that you

[00:24:00] can do i suppose is doing animation uh because it takes so long to do um so so it's something

[00:24:06] that they may have to be planning now if they want to include it into into season two or

[00:24:10] season three but throughout the show there are majorly fantastical moments there's some

[00:24:15] some really um difficult things that you could do like this you couldn't really film in live action

[00:24:21] you know there's no there's no way you could do it it would be an absolute nightmare for the director

[00:24:26] imagine having all those cats yeah hurting the cat exactly but i can't imagine they would do an

[00:24:31] entire story arc animation and i would say it's going to be one of the individual uh

[00:24:36] individual episodes in the future there's some episodes that are that are um there's some issues

[00:24:40] single issues that are um set in major historical settings um where it might be more practical to

[00:24:48] do it as animation because of how fantastical they get so that might be an option um in the

[00:24:54] future but i'm not i can't think of one off the top of my head uh that would be i'll be uh ready

[00:25:01] for animation you heard it here first fellow dreamers i have stumped lord of the saman derrick

[00:25:09] well if you if you set me up with the question beforehand i might have a might have researched

[00:25:12] just keep your feet keep your feet i'm really bad i'm really bad on my feet chris i'm a researcher

[00:25:17] first thing in the morning excellent uh one of the things i did like about the episode

[00:25:22] like we mentioned neil gaming being in there it's great to have his voice attached in the

[00:25:26] episode to the skull bird the skull crow that gives the guidance to the kitten i think that

[00:25:29] was quite cool having neil gaming's voice in the show as just such a such a unique voice

[00:25:34] one of the things you may may have noticed may not have noticed again it depends on how close

[00:25:38] you were to what was happening in the show um the cave that uh that the cat of dreams lives in

[00:25:45] uh you may have noticed that i've had uh wavering griffon and the hippogriff outside the cave

[00:25:49] exactly like the castle of dreams in the dreaming um which i really like that touch so

[00:25:55] you are in the land of dreams but this is how the cat sees their land of dreams the

[00:25:59] same as cat that's how they see their land of dreams so this is something that you see

[00:26:02] throughout uh throughout the story of the sandman different people coming into the realm of dreams

[00:26:08] see that castle but see those those three creatures sitting atop it in different ways but they are

[00:26:14] always uh wavering a griffon and the hippogriff so excellent uh yeah the only thing i have is

[00:26:19] i really liked when the prophet the simis cat met lord kitty morphias for the first time

[00:26:26] because is that great thing where they they walk they kind of come together that like their head on

[00:26:33] but don't sort of touch or do that cat thing where they kind of stroke up against one another

[00:26:39] um they almost like nose to nose and then like she just kind of sniffs up at him

[00:26:45] and just the air yeah to walk but towards him as they're just just checking and then kind of

[00:26:51] backed away again so i thought it was a really kind of a very cat thing well kind of identified

[00:26:58] and put in the animation absolutely yeah yeah it's really good even even the moment where we're a cat

[00:27:03] of dreams asks who simis cat is and she goes i'm a cat i have my own nature that's it it's like

[00:27:09] there's nothing no other detail behind that it's just i'm a cat and i'm here to ask you a question

[00:27:12] it's no it's no like i am this historical cat that has uh that that owns the world or any

[00:27:19] kind of detail about who it is just a cat and i'm entitled to whatever information i want

[00:27:24] so uh yes really well observed overall guys wanted to think of the episode let's give a quick

[00:27:28] rating on this one before we move on to call out p john what did you think of dream of thousand

[00:27:32] cats i really enjoy this um you know short sharp and sweet i love the animation just kind of like

[00:27:38] the whole you know the throttles just this nice little contained story give it for killer

[00:27:44] kitties out of five and and yeah no i just really kind of i love neil gayman's short stories so this

[00:27:54] is like a short story from the sandman yes and i always find them like just they're really digestible

[00:28:01] they're always you know just have that twist whether it's a macabre one just an unexpected

[00:28:08] twist or even the obvious twist of something as i've always enjoyed his short stories and

[00:28:14] where he's riffing off um you know well known um properties effectively whether that's

[00:28:22] children's stories whether that's the marvel universe or whatever you know and so i really

[00:28:27] enjoyed this and i think um yeah i just like how neil gayman does that and so for me this was

[00:28:38] just a perfect little um you know digestif to the the sandman series excellent excellent

[00:28:46] chris how about yourself what do you think i absolutely loved it now let me let you finish

[00:28:49] that question um for me it was the it's just one it's pretty much what john said it is a short

[00:28:57] contained narrative that is just fun if you like cats you don't like cats it's just even

[00:29:03] it's fantastical in nature but grounded in reality enough that like it is it is a story that is

[00:29:10] started up by the cruelty of man but then goes into the the crazy fantastical world of the dreams

[00:29:18] and the nature of dreams and what can happen because of dreams uh and then kind of pulls you

[00:29:24] back into nope it's just a kitten dreaming having fun like it's just a nice beginning

[00:29:30] middle and end dreaming killing humans griff

[00:29:34] hey what what well who are we to uh to question the dream of cats our lord and saviours absolutely

[00:29:41] yeah that's that's one of the things i love about it as well because it does have a message of

[00:29:45] don't treat cats like crap you know that that is that is the message of it it's not it is uh written

[00:29:50] very well like that you know it's kind of telling you how much power humans have over the

[00:29:55] animals that are entrusted into our care so it is telling you treat them well because at least in this

[00:30:01] story it could be the ruination of all of us as humans if this story was true one of the most fun

[00:30:06] things i've seen on the internet after this episode came out was so many people who were

[00:30:10] cat owners with photos of their cats sitting in front of the tv staring wrapped to attention

[00:30:16] at these cats appearing on screen and all the responses from samman fans going don't do it

[00:30:20] don't do it all the all it takes is a thousand and we'll be returning to them being in control

[00:30:25] i thought that was absolutely hilarious but i do love this as a concept you say no game and short

[00:30:31] stories are fantastic they really are this one obviously being in samman universe is tied to the

[00:30:36] sandman but he has three collections of short stories which are all fantastic definitely go

[00:30:41] it and check those out one has the excellent black cat story which i constantly am reminded of

[00:30:47] as a black cat owner all of us wonder why our cats have little bits taken out of their ears

[00:30:54] every single black cat owner i know i think has a has a cat with a bit taken out of its ears and

[00:30:58] neil game and pauses that that's because they protect us from demons at night so a great short

[00:31:03] story definitely check that one out as well yes there you go that's my recommendation

[00:31:07] loved this story loads of other options for for great short stories as well

[00:31:11] will we move on to the next episode then yes time to talk about the second part in

[00:31:16] chapter 11 calliope richard this is calliope the youngest of the nine sisters she was homersmule

[00:31:24] so she ought to be good enough for you calliope i'm giving you to richard your hisna but you said

[00:31:34] that you would free me before you died put not your trust in princes my dear nor in an aging

[00:31:42] author was never been what should i call a shining example when it came to keeping his word

[00:31:50] but you promised writers are liars my dear surely you realize that by now

[00:31:59] oh i love derrick jackaby in a villainous role he's so close oh welcome yes talking a page

[00:32:06] calliope the second half of chapter 11 of sandman this episode was written by katharine

[00:32:12] smith mcmullin as i mentioned just before on our dream of thousand cats part of the podcast

[00:32:17] and this episode was directed by louise hooper who directed chapter chapter 10 as well the

[00:32:20] finale of season one so a great director great bridge director so great to have her on board for

[00:32:26] this more serious episode i suppose at least a lot of people will see it as more serious

[00:32:32] than the dream of thousand cats um john do you want to tell us what the game is with your synopsis

[00:32:36] for the calliope sure struggling author richard maddock visits a rasmus fry an elderly former

[00:32:44] writer who has imprisoned a greek muse named calliope in his house fry transfers ownership

[00:32:50] of calliope to maddock in exchange for the chiquino bizarre back at maddock's home he

[00:32:57] discovers that violence is more efficient to receive the muses inspiration despite his promises

[00:33:02] to release her after the publication of his sequel to his best-selling debu novel he abuses her more

[00:33:08] than once until it becomes obvious he never intends to let her go calliope sends a desperate

[00:33:14] plea to the fates who are unable to act before turning to morpheus her former husband whom

[00:33:20] she had not seen since the tragic death of their son orpheus upon receiving her plea

[00:33:26] and learning what has happened to her morpheus becomes enraged and confronts maddock when he

[00:33:33] refuses to release calliope morpheus punishes maddock with an uncontrollable stream of ideas

[00:33:39] maddock soon frees calliope who asks morpheus to lift his curse from maddock morpheus does so

[00:33:46] but maddock finds himself unable to remember calliope morpheus or any of his ideas calliope

[00:33:54] vows to make sure that what happened to her doesn't happen to her sister muses she and morpheus share

[00:34:00] a tender goodbye as she expresses the hope that sometime in the future she can visit him in his

[00:34:06] realm and they'll be able to grieve their son properly so another one-off story this one kind

[00:34:11] of taking place spread across the two time periods while morpheus was captured and just

[00:34:17] after he's uh he's come back at the end of the end of the dollhouse arc of the story so

[00:34:23] so quite an interesting idea right that yeah that's she has been captured and there's no way out of

[00:34:28] this situation but unable to call even if she wanted to to morpheus because he's been trapped

[00:34:34] and so interesting idea um what do you think of this one overall um as an episode john yeah i mean

[00:34:40] again i i thought this was um really good you know just that that tinge of darkness um throughout

[00:34:49] this uh with erasmus fry but also then with richard maddox and again it's interesting it's that

[00:34:56] over time perspective that you know despite the progress of time and potentially society

[00:35:03] here is here are two men that are doing the same thing to a woman yeah and and uh you know in

[00:35:11] in terms of the abuse and effectively restraining her against her will as well so you know it in that

[00:35:20] sense is a real serious message um sort of tinged with khaliyah peas realization that vengeance

[00:35:28] and isn't something that she wants to do because it will eat her more than

[00:35:36] whether it's justified or not towards richard maddox here so i this was really good

[00:35:44] um you know and getting the backstory a bit more of this relationship between khaliyah

[00:35:49] pea and morpheus as well which sounds intriguing yeah exactly this this tease

[00:35:55] of this relationship that didn't seem to end well but at least they're beginning to talk again

[00:36:03] yes yeah another kind of nod as well you know earlier on the season we saw that moment where

[00:36:08] morpheus meets another one of the relationships these had before with nada and again teased what

[00:36:13] happened with their relationship here with khaliyah pea teased what happened with their

[00:36:18] relationship something to another story to tell in the future i guess uh chris how about

[00:36:22] you what do you think um of this episode in this translation i didn't think they'd do it

[00:36:26] right i honestly did not think they would do this based on what it is discussing which is

[00:36:32] the for power men will do anything it is very much a blatant um and obvious tale of

[00:36:42] if no matter the age no matter the man um if you put power uh in front of a man

[00:36:48] his power will corrupt absolutely um or absolute power corrupts absolutely um so if you give

[00:36:55] a man the power to be inspired to write anything and especially with the current kind of him in

[00:37:04] this case richard maddock being failing feeling and then you see you do even get one quick scene

[00:37:11] where he is going down the internet rabbit rabbit hole of like looking at his twitter looking at

[00:37:17] his instagram looking at his like reviews and it's all starting to trend towards negative

[00:37:23] that will drive a man to do anything yeah yeah he's very desperate at the opening of this episode

[00:37:28] who set it up quite well and again you know just to come back to the original comic book that this

[00:37:33] is all taken from a line after line uh is taken directly from the comic here there's the only

[00:37:39] update and really of it is you know again as as chris said him going on to the internet and

[00:37:43] seeing those internet reviews and and how he's being seen in the world that's not there but

[00:37:48] maddock himself is as desperate in the comic books at that point as he is on the tv show yeah i

[00:37:55] mean also from his agent and the publisher you know he's nine months he's got the money

[00:38:00] that's been nine months overdue since he uh since he was supposed to deliver the book and he

[00:38:04] hasn't written one word of it other than his name yeah so the only bit i have and i'm gonna

[00:38:10] ask this question they do not directly say what he does or what these men do to the news

[00:38:19] yeah and i think they make it just obvious enough yeah i think but i i'm wondering if

[00:38:29] to show the the level of monster that these men become does i'm not saying show it of course

[00:38:36] i'm saying more not because that's game with rounds that's not the sad man um do they

[00:38:42] would did they need to be a bit more direct because they were very direct in the comic books

[00:38:49] they were yes yes one of the big changes we'll talk about it you know one of the big changes

[00:38:53] really is when maddock picks up calliope from erasmus fry and brings her home the comic has

[00:38:58] a specific line in it that says he brings her home and the first thing he does is rapes her

[00:39:04] he takes that guidance directly from erasmus fry that says you can with them that's what we

[00:39:08] are supposed to do but i've always found forcing them is the way to get what you want

[00:39:13] and he takes her home and forces himself on her here i suppose the context that they've added

[00:39:21] to this episode is that he realizes how bad a thing it is and they make it clear that it's

[00:39:27] that it is a really bad thing that richard maddock is doing he feels he's pushed to this level

[00:39:34] because she's not giving up her gift to him um it almost makes richard maddock's a worse person

[00:39:41] in the tv show because in the comic he doesn't even think about it he's he's the one that says

[00:39:47] she's thousands of years old she's not even a human uh in the comic that's not coming from

[00:39:51] erasmus fry he treats her like she's nothing in the comic but here because he knows what he's

[00:39:57] doing and he even had an option calliope gives him an option she says let me go free

[00:40:01] and then i will make a decision as to whether to help you or not she's amused she's supposed to

[00:40:05] inspire people that she chooses to inspire she gives them that option and maddock says no maddock

[00:40:11] still locks her inside the room well that's what i thought was you know just really one of the

[00:40:16] kind of superb parts about this the two things it's that you have this back and

[00:40:23] forth between richard maddock's and calliope where you know set me free she's asking and

[00:40:29] his justification for locking her up and restricting her liberty and freedom is because

[00:40:39] he poses you know you think i'm free with all this pressure with you know he feels locked up as

[00:40:45] well and that somehow justifies him to be able to do the same to her that she needs to be

[00:40:52] treated in the same way as he feels it is rather than saying well you know i need to sort out my own

[00:40:59] mess but that aspect of things really good and i think as well like you say um it's the big

[00:41:07] thing i got she actually tells him how he would get inspiration from her and other muses without

[00:41:15] locking her up or all the abuse it's let me free and you know pray to the muses offer that devotion

[00:41:24] for inspiration and we will choose whether to share the gifts or not but instead we have

[00:41:32] richard resorting to the abuse the violence and i think as well it's beyond the

[00:41:40] the um you know i think you were saying like in the comics it's it he rapes her yeah and but i mean

[00:41:47] this is also about effectively containment i can't remember the legal word and but you know it's about

[00:41:55] forced imprisonment effectively as it's not just the the raping it's the abuse of that

[00:42:02] it's the violence of that but it's also the constraining of this woman in in in the room as

[00:42:10] much abuse even if he even if there was no rape that in and of itself you know and and i think

[00:42:19] it's just really you know it's the controlling it's yeah the control here and i just thought it

[00:42:26] was really well done you know in a sense this this whole story when i first came into it i just i

[00:42:33] thought it was to do with effectively writers block and you know that dare i say it almost

[00:42:41] you know neil game and like you said previously writing about writers and and the things that

[00:42:46] they go through and then you know it takes on this much darker meaning but set within this

[00:42:53] fantastical world of greek muses you know lord morpheus and the fates and and strange

[00:43:02] sort of gifts such as the tracheono uh bazaar or from i mean that that was just

[00:43:11] not entirely sure why a rasmus frine wanted or was looking for that other than i think he

[00:43:16] was like almost like a lucky charm i guess yeah he describes it as having some properties

[00:43:21] or some ancient properties he seems to be a collector now he's left all alone um on his own

[00:43:25] with nobody to talk to so he seems to have kind of turned himself into this creator we hear later

[00:43:30] and that because he hasn't gotten his fame back he kills himself um so rasmus fry has has

[00:43:36] taken his own life because well richard manneck actually didn't do the only thing he said he

[00:43:40] would try and do which would get which was get arasmus fries uh booked back into publication

[00:43:45] and i do think this is neil game and writing about writers block though i think that is

[00:43:49] the starting point that he got from and i do love that if you think about just the arc of

[00:43:53] what happens to the authors here he gives you the whole story of what could happen so when you're in

[00:43:59] writers block you have all the pressure that you need to get this done if you force yourself

[00:44:05] over writers block and in this case you know get calliope to give you the inspiration or you

[00:44:10] steal inspiration from somewhere effectively is this is the concept you may get a couple of books

[00:44:15] out of it but eventually no matter how much inspiration you've taken from muses you will go

[00:44:21] out of fashion and people will stop reading your books that's kind of the whole artist's journey

[00:44:25] here that neil game has given you with this uh with this story which i think is really

[00:44:30] interesting as an idea if you if you become popular it's never it's never going to last

[00:44:35] forever eternally every single author has gone out of fashion at some point and stop and their

[00:44:40] books stopped being published so uh so he does have that that kind of overarching author's journey in

[00:44:46] there as well yes yeah um bringing it back on the updated kind of an abuse discussion though the

[00:44:54] reason i i found that this one a bit worse was just the subtleness the subtlety of um what was

[00:45:02] being described so essentially when he sits down with his writers block he can't write anything

[00:45:09] he goes up to the um he goes up to the room he closes the door you hear questions he comes down

[00:45:19] and his shirts he's dishevelled but you have a line a scratch a car mark from her from her

[00:45:27] fingernails across his face on a single one with blood and that is more telling and it's

[00:45:35] just one of the most it's such a if you had to have him shown her battered and bruised yeah

[00:45:42] and like this is for some reason this is more disturbing because it just shows

[00:45:47] the innocence of he then literally doesn't even he barely gets dressed he just goes

[00:45:52] straight down to the computer starts writing doesn't clean up his blood doesn't redo his

[00:45:56] shirt he just then and starts drinking and typing away well that's just so disturbing

[00:46:02] exactly and i mean even with the rasmus fry i mean first off like i absolutely adore

[00:46:08] Derek jackaby as an actor i really just have always loved how he just does his work even if

[00:46:17] i'm not necessarily into the particular tv show or or movie that he's been in i just really like

[00:46:24] the gravitas and just how he he does it and i think here in a rasmus fry as well it's not

[00:46:31] only you know as a you have this abuse by men over time he and now aged but has done exactly what

[00:46:40] richard maddox is doing and it's like even though she has inspired him to all these great works

[00:46:46] he's completely resentful of her in the sense that because he knows the truth that it's

[00:46:53] the issues with him and she's the one that's dug him out of this yeah and completely resentful

[00:47:00] but as well i just love that again that that that dialogue from him about that we you have at the

[00:47:09] start of the the little snippet from the episode where he says you know write us all liars yeah

[00:47:15] and you should know this by now effectively as a muse you know and um this notion that

[00:47:21] you know works of fiction it is lies on a page effectively this is much that as as about him lying

[00:47:29] to calliope with the promises that you know if you do this one once off then i'll let you go and

[00:47:37] again the same that comes from and how it echoes over time but from a rasmus fry through

[00:47:45] sir richard maddox it's the same kind of thing it's inadequate obnoxious awful men that

[00:47:54] resent women for some crazy reason yeah you're here to inspire me not for your own agency

[00:48:01] effectively yes and pure out and out misogyny exactly um yeah really a really powerful story here

[00:48:08] yeah quickly moving on to calliope herself so um melissa tanti mahut um i i've loved this actress for

[00:48:18] years she plays um kassandra and she was a voice actor uh in video games she plays kassandra in

[00:48:25] assassin's creed odyssey which is this powerful strong woman um in historical history if you

[00:48:33] played assassin creed um you'll know um she just plays this greek badass so well and i followed her

[00:48:42] kind of partially of her career or kind of on this so when i saw she was doing this i was so happy

[00:48:48] just a crazy aside she is in meg too oh right um if any of you whether it's a really cheesy

[00:48:57] really cheesy sci-fi about a megalodon shark it is so bad but this is a sequel it got a sequel

[00:49:06] and she's in it and it's going to be terrible and good at the same time really i saw the first one

[00:49:12] i had no idea there was a sequel it's coming it's a post production right now of course

[00:49:19] some of our biggest films that we ever wanted don't get sequels but the meg gets a sequel it's

[00:49:24] gonna be great um anyway i actually love that she is one of the nine muses and her mothers are the fates

[00:49:30] so we meet the fates again in this yes and you see her talking to their daughter and they're very

[00:49:36] direct even though one is as young or younger than her um and it's just bringing in that

[00:49:41] fantastical element where the room starts to shift from being the room that we were set into

[00:49:48] this wider stage with i'm assuming greek or uh kind of kind of landscape all over it yeah and it's just

[00:49:57] beautiful to watch and it's a scene and then you do then get these tidbits of that her and morpheus

[00:50:02] have a son orpheus and like what happened to that kid we know potentially that it's dead is it in

[00:50:07] hell where like all these questions start right and then she just has this beautiful kind of pet name

[00:50:12] which i'm not i can't even pronounce because i have no greek in me um but it's just it begins

[00:50:18] with a no and it's just she says it's such with parts with disdain and not even hate but just this

[00:50:25] kind of like love lawn and it's delivered that way and then at the end is delivered with pure

[00:50:34] um like missing i can't even put kind of put a thing it's just delivered in a way she's like

[00:50:40] there's thankfulness and it's just like maybe there is a future with these two yes yes well

[00:50:46] there was certainly a past yet there were husband and wife uh on iris and uh and khaliyah b um they had

[00:50:50] a child and the child is dead yes that's it that's all uh all there um but yeah i think we will see

[00:50:56] that story uh that is an issue of the comic book if you if you do want to read the story

[00:51:00] there is there is an issue of comic book dedicated to the story of orpheus um but there is that

[00:51:07] comment from her where khaliyah b says he hates me and i have complete disdain for him

[00:51:13] for what happened to our child um so yeah because the child is dead both of them blame each other

[00:51:20] and that broke them apart because they both thought they both should be able to save a child he's the

[00:51:25] lord of the dream of dreams and she's one of the one of the fates if they can't keep their

[00:51:30] child alive who can it's kind of the the idea so they both blamed each other um but the heartbreaking

[00:51:35] nature of what the fates are saying to her she's called out to them having been in captivity

[00:51:40] now for 60 70 years um and they're telling her well he did he did exactly the things that we

[00:51:48] that we say in our rules and laws that that can be done to uh to capture you so therefore

[00:51:54] uh you're you're stuck there like that's that's a really really difficult moment

[00:51:58] yeah i completely agree with that i actually really enjoyed just how she goes to the fates who

[00:52:07] are effectively her mothers and and to you know to try and escape to see what it is and they're

[00:52:14] effectively you know their namesake well this is the this is your fate because all the rules

[00:52:20] or all the boxes were ticked you know all the teas um were teed off and the the the eyes

[00:52:28] dot is and all this it like yes it's totally her fate as far as the fates see it because there was

[00:52:37] nothing done that was there was wrong i mean they hint whether you could try morpheus you know the

[00:52:42] the the endless one of the endless because again it's almost a little nod to american gods this

[00:52:48] idea that a lot of the gods have been lost and so on or weakened in this modern world

[00:52:54] and and but you know it also is around but they're having their own problems yeah which again

[00:53:01] has a reference to this previous episode season but to me as well it's also that reflection

[00:53:07] not just of women but of men that accept what happens in abuse circumstances you know or

[00:53:13] it's the idea like say well you know forced marriages or you know this idea of being

[00:53:20] married off to you know like you would have had in victorian times it was that was the accepted

[00:53:26] practice there so it was fine and women and have fought to not have forced marriages you know or

[00:53:34] dowries or this kind of trading almost of women for family wealth or sort of improving their

[00:53:42] station and that you choose who you spend your your your life with or not and so that was the

[00:53:52] that was really the interesting reflection i thought around fates was you know in this

[00:53:58] fantastical world or reflecting people in society ultimately that will simply go well

[00:54:06] they deserved it or well there were no rules broken so why is this a problem and so on and

[00:54:13] that's the that's the excellent thing that gayman does here with the fates and effectively

[00:54:18] connecting it as i say to their namesake in that they believe in fate so it's a very channeled

[00:54:26] view of how someone lives their lives and and ultimately spurs her on in her desperation

[00:54:36] to approach morpheus despite this and troubled history that they've had yeah yeah and i do think

[00:54:45] this is why a lot of people love the character morpheus we saw the negative sides of morpheus

[00:54:51] throughout the series of sandman he's a cool character don't get me wrong but there's lots of

[00:54:56] negatives about him and he but he by the end of the series he's learned a lot about who he is

[00:55:00] and here his treatment of calliope i think is so well realized so well brought to the screen by

[00:55:05] tom sturge this the softness and how polite he is with dealing with calliope after all that she's

[00:55:12] gone through again if you remember the timing of this it's a couple years after he's been

[00:55:16] imprisoned for a hundred years and she apologizes to him or says how much she's hurt for him and he

[00:55:23] goes don't even worry about it my suffering is nothing compared to what you've suffered through

[00:55:29] the reason why he stayed away from was because he thought she didn't want him near her and he

[00:55:35] took that as well if you don't want me near near you i'm away the minute she called for him

[00:55:41] he came and that is that's morpheus that is who he is he still absolutely loves her but is willing to

[00:55:49] be pushed away by her if that's what she chooses so i like how they've how they've put this character

[00:55:55] on screen here in this in this moment because it shows another side of the character morpheus

[00:56:01] had caring he is the punishment he wants to deal out to richard again he will only do it

[00:56:06] if he gets to go ahead from calliope um she's kind of going well there's no punishment at all

[00:56:13] that would um would punish him for what he's done to me there's nothing at all that he could do

[00:56:18] but effectively morpheus visits the punishment of having unlimited ideas so that he will release

[00:56:25] calliope and once he does calliope chooses to uh to take away that punishment effectively so

[00:56:32] so i love that he's not being vengeful he's using what he can to help her be free because she can

[00:56:38] only be free if he says the words you're free effectively so and he can't specifically tell

[00:56:44] him to do that so he uses what he can to drive him to uh free calliope and then turns it off

[00:56:51] effectively yeah well the punishment is excellent because it is exactly what richard maddock is

[00:56:56] looking for his ideas but he puts them to absolute excess or as he says if ideas are what you want

[00:57:04] you'll have them in abundance and effectively drives him uh loopers uh with the amount of ideas

[00:57:12] sort of just flooding into his brain i love that the idea of the um the were goldfish um

[00:57:22] and i really enjoy the moon comes out as the girlfish turns into a exactly i really like

[00:57:27] the idea as well of someone being given a lost library card from the ancient library of alexandria

[00:57:34] i thought that would be like a really cool story um it felt really neil gayman uh in that sense

[00:57:41] and um if you want the full list go go really shoot 17 of uh of saman it's got the full

[00:57:46] list of everything all the ideas that uh that richard maddock comes up with uh there's some

[00:57:50] really interesting ones in there as well and try and read that wall uh that he writes out all of

[00:57:55] the ideas in blood because he has no pen uh try and read some of the things he's written on the wall

[00:58:00] there there's some uh some interesting ones to do it's a really brutal moment it is it is

[00:58:04] showing how far it goes when he uses his own fingers to write in blood on the wall um

[00:58:10] but an apt punishment for him uh the wrap up of it of the episode is that calliope will now use her

[00:58:17] gifts to inspire a change in humanity to inspire a change in those rules effectively so that this

[00:58:22] can't happen again ever to any of the muses um why write them so that people can uh can take

[00:58:29] take any of them captive so which i would like to look at there's a that bit of inspiration for

[00:58:35] her um and that she's going to drive humans to be better um and finally we get that little

[00:58:41] discussion between the two of them she wants to uh hopefully meet up with morpheus once again but he

[00:58:45] doesn't think uh that would be a good idea for the two of them and they want to she wants to mourn

[00:58:49] their son but uh he doesn't feel that would be a good idea for the two of them because well not

[00:58:52] at this moment yeah because that's right in there that's the that's the bit where they added

[00:58:56] i was like ooh they're gonna they're gonna change bits um for me the the reason i love this

[00:59:04] is it sets a path for a potential sequel which we never got they could write an original

[00:59:10] sequel of sorts to this we there is parts of the comic book this that they can take there's this

[00:59:16] they talk about the story of orpheus they there is meetings again in the future but they could

[00:59:22] quite easily build on bridges here their own kind of next steps um overall what i love about this

[00:59:30] is it shows from episode one to episode 11 the growth of morpheus as you say it's literally he starts

[00:59:43] as this he just has consistent disdain in his heart um and then it gets even worse with his

[00:59:51] imprisonment um and then towards the end of about the very thing this is set slightly after

[00:59:58] episode 10 yeah it is essentially him showing that he is not just with humans but he's willing to show

[01:00:07] empathy to everything he is just growing as a character that's what you want in all your

[01:00:13] kind of good narratives um so just this alone shows like yeah i just i can't speak more highly

[01:00:22] of this episode yeah absolutely and again you know one of those episodes where we don't see a lot

[01:00:27] of morpheus uh in either of the two stories but when he is there he makes a really big impact which is

[01:00:32] yeah fundamentally his character in the comics and i mean it's also at the you know it's this

[01:00:36] at least for these two episodes as well it's interesting because you know you have the

[01:00:41] cruelty of man or humans towards animals with the the kittens and here it's cruelty of man to

[01:00:51] other humans and in particular to women for this story so i think these two episodes do have a common

[01:01:02] kind of thread that runs through them and in terms of why um the you know in the case of the

[01:01:09] Siamese cat in the case of uh Calliope you know seek out lord morpheus for various things

[01:01:17] yeah absolutely and just have one note before we before we close it out um we kind of mentioned a

[01:01:22] little bit earlier on the calliope gave richard away out uh one of the things that's so

[01:01:29] affecting i suppose about what they've done here richard and erasmus is they've taken one of the

[01:01:33] muses off the table and use them as their own muse they've used them as this personal thing to

[01:01:39] benefit them to drive their own personal inspiration and the idea of the muses is that they are

[01:01:44] there to inspire humanity and because she's been off the table now for 100 years being forced to

[01:01:50] inspire these two people only to write books her abilities her what she's actually supposed to

[01:01:57] to be for has been lost to the world so it's it's this idea that they're saying well you must

[01:02:03] inspire me and me only it's that possessive concept as well as what they're doing to make

[01:02:09] her inspire them it's it's that whole thing together that's that makes them such horrible people

[01:02:16] in in the world and deserving of every punishment that they get um

[01:02:21] because as the muses she would have had her own ability to choose

[01:02:25] who deserves the gift of inspiration and neither of these people should have deserved that right

[01:02:30] given exactly they are overall what's your final thoughts on the episode john what do you

[01:02:35] think of the episode overall yeah i mean you know it really um kind of dark and bleak in many

[01:02:41] respects uh this this part of of chapter 11 but i give i thought it was really powerful i give

[01:02:49] it four and a half writers wrongs out of five and you know it to me it's you know this this

[01:02:58] notion of the the abusing defiling nature of of men to women and it looks at it across time but even

[01:03:09] like in terms of the fates those people whether they're men or women that don't intervene to try

[01:03:16] and rectify it but here then there are the people to to rectify it so it's this microcosm

[01:03:25] and but just on you know as i say with greek fates with the lord of dreams with um all all that you

[01:03:34] know with the fates with these and fantastical myth myths um that we have so i i thought this was

[01:03:40] really really good you know i thought derrick jackaby was superb doing his evil turn at

[01:03:48] similarly seeing off the darville as well as richard maddock really good i liked

[01:03:55] the sense that he gave to that character and you know in many respects starting off

[01:04:00] almost sympathetic because he's got writers blocked but then how he chooses to

[01:04:05] and the decisions he makes to unlock that block and is you know he deserves that and apt

[01:04:14] punishment of just a stream on flood of ideas and that he can't control so this this to me was

[01:04:22] just really um an excellent little piece so yeah four and a half writers wrongs out of five chris for

[01:04:31] me this i can't say much more of why i enjoy it the actors the actresses the the storyline

[01:04:39] i think i felt that the the subtlety in comparison to some of the the original

[01:04:45] on the abuse i thought on first viewing i was a bit myth that because i was like

[01:04:52] they were almost i was gonna say kind of they were just washing away the abuse of it but actually

[01:04:58] upon the second viewing i was like no it's a bit more it's subtle for a reason um in that

[01:05:05] that they kind of take it it's that it's the horror of the unseen if to a degree so like you know when

[01:05:12] we talk about horror films it's shadow is more sometimes more scary than the actual beast itself

[01:05:20] this was actually that for me um i again like how they incorporated into the overall mythos of what

[01:05:26] we are discussing what we are um the the sam man itself how and i love that it's a bonus episode

[01:05:34] you can like you could slot this in i would it's good where it is but you could slot it in kind of

[01:05:40] as a as a digestive somewhere through uh just to take that break i don't know why you take an abuse

[01:05:48] kind of mini break but sure it's a good story too yeah i think it's important that it happens

[01:05:53] here because it's it's after um morpheus has learned who he is um at the end at the end

[01:05:59] of the doll says which is why it makes sense in uh in the comics to be land to land right here i think

[01:06:03] that the dream of a thousand cats you could probably put put somewhere in the middle of the of the

[01:06:08] season um at some point but this one really is the culmination of where he has he has gotten to

[01:06:14] we we saw at the end of the season him going off to become the creator of dreams and nightmares

[01:06:19] again uh which he was before so he's back to learning everything bringing it on board

[01:06:24] whereas here we see him actually reaching out to uh to his past and and acknowledging that he

[01:06:30] needs to change so uh so you could do dream with thousand cats as episodes 5.5 and this is still

[01:06:37] episode 10.5 i think that's a good way of doing it i'm speaking of uh i just i didn't get to say

[01:06:43] galt is really i'm really happy with galt is taking back and giving her a new life as a dream

[01:06:48] it was very nice i think i'd say that that was very happy about yeah that was fabulous

[01:06:51] an episode 10 wasn't it really really good derek what did you think of this calliope

[01:06:56] i love the translation of this i thought this was uh i actually worked probably uh better

[01:07:01] in live action um than it did in the comic you could easily have taken the comic and done

[01:07:07] it live and it would have just felt exploitative uh in live action in the comic book it's it's

[01:07:13] it's very clear exactly what's going on and the abuse that's happening to calliope here

[01:07:18] it's not just the abuse it's what these men who are aware of what they're doing are doing to this

[01:07:24] woman uh to get what they want and as you say john the at the addition of uh that the people that

[01:07:30] allow this thing to go on in society is is uh is interesting as well we the fates have exactly

[01:07:35] the same purpose in the book but it actually comes across very well in the episode i think

[01:07:39] that's a testimony to the writer the episode and the actors and director involved that

[01:07:43] are able to bring this to life as being something massively brutal then uh well yeah it's you know

[01:07:50] in the case of um erasmus fry and um with richard maddox it's forced imprisonment

[01:08:00] effectively yeah which i know like the interesting thing is here in ireland that's just recently

[01:08:05] gone on the statute book there in terms of a you know range of different abuses that one

[01:08:11] person can do to another yeah and and but it's also then with the fates it's the societal imprisonment

[01:08:18] through actually just the laws and the rules that are acceptable at the time or what the just the

[01:08:26] general cultural aspect of what they feel is acceptable as well that oh you've reached out

[01:08:32] for help but will the law say that he's done nothing wrong here so it's fine yeah what we're

[01:08:37] exactly and that's the other side of this imprisonment here so yeah really good yeah a tough episode but

[01:08:45] i think it's a really well put together episode so certainly a great entry into the end of san

[01:08:51] man season one we've gotten to the end of our coverage of the san man season one and unfortunately

[01:08:57] even after taking this long to get through it that's final episode came out on the 19th of

[01:09:01] august and we're here on the 2nd of october we still don't have confirmation that there is

[01:09:06] going to be a season two of san man and that's a real shame at this stage you would expect given how much

[01:09:15] this show has loved the reviews have been and been through the roof there's been a massive amount

[01:09:20] of viewership on netflix over the course the last the last eight or nine weeks since the episodes

[01:09:27] are released so a real shame that we don't have a second season i'll say two things though

[01:09:33] i think this has been adapted way better than i ever thought it could have been

[01:09:37] this version of what's what's been brought to screen is absolutely fantastic if we never get a

[01:09:42] second season at least we got an amazingly adapted first season of the show but i am hoping we will

[01:09:47] get a second season yeah there's so we're recording this in the first week in october as you said

[01:09:54] there's typically one more to them which is the kind of conference not conference but it's

[01:10:02] like the on-demand video that they do yeah with some where they do some announcements they previously

[01:10:08] just did the witcher one which i thought they might in that one i thought they were gonna announce

[01:10:12] san man too yeah haven't so either we'll get one we'll get we're due one month to them at the

[01:10:19] end of the year before the end of the year so it might be there this is the netflix fan festival

[01:10:23] just a case uh you know you can't sorry better way of saying it to them it's based on they literally

[01:10:29] they call it's based on the noise they make on netflix um it one more two at the end of the year

[01:10:36] or they'll just do a press release and that will be it it will be a press release with a quote

[01:10:41] from nil game and a quote from one or two of the actors and probably the showrunner i think

[01:10:47] it will go into next year now i think we won't get any because we are so far now it will either be

[01:10:55] a stealth like slow news day let's stealth drop this or say on a very packed news day let's stealth

[01:11:02] drop this as it's not getting a second season or uh it will be an announcement next year once

[01:11:09] they've probably started pre-production where they really probably if they did get renewed

[01:11:14] they've already started pre-production and they'll announce it when it's closer to production

[01:11:19] when they start filming and all that type of thing and you can't hide it as much

[01:11:23] due to castings and things like that um so i think we're now in a

[01:11:30] showrunners sandman for the at least a couple of months yeah it's unusual because

[01:11:35] netflix are usually very big at uh sharing their successes um you mentioned to them the fan

[01:11:41] festival uh sandman was the only premium show on netflix that did not have any presence at all

[01:11:48] in their two day to dumb event a couple of weeks ago and that was only like two or three weeks

[01:11:53] ago they literally had zero presence no members of the cast no nil game and nobody behind the scenes

[01:11:58] no even retrospective look back at this series that has been number one across the netflix charts

[01:12:04] according to according to all the streaming ratings so that is conspicuous that is

[01:12:10] a sign i think that potentially this may be going over to prime video if it is getting a second

[01:12:15] season that is not staying with netflix uh yeah again this one is a Warner Brothers production

[01:12:21] as well so um we if you are anyway clued into what is going on there we have lost shows but

[01:12:28] there's been a number of shows that have come to HBO gone from HBO um films that have been

[01:12:34] cancelled shows that have been cancelled that are well into production um so there probably is a lot of

[01:12:41] this is the business side of what's going on i think discussions are being had contracts are

[01:12:46] being signed or annulled uh and this is the the the the downside of um living in the

[01:12:53] capitalistic entertainment world um but let's see i think it's going to be a couple of months

[01:13:00] but one last positive uh before we move on uh new york comic cons take place next week um

[01:13:05] neil gaming's going to be there promoting good omen season two uh confirmed tom sturridge um

[01:13:10] mason alexander park and boyd hallbrooke uh who played carinthian um and desire respectively

[01:13:16] all three of them are going to be at new york comic con for the weekend no panels are signed

[01:13:21] they're there to sign photos and and have sessions with fans but neil gaming will be there for good

[01:13:26] omen's uh i wonder will they will they take the stage at new york comic con that has happened on many

[01:13:33] many occasions throughout the history of new york comic con people appearing out of nowhere and

[01:13:37] giving surprise announcements i think george cloney was there at one point as as the biggest

[01:13:42] surprise guest that's uh that they have at one of the shows we were at um so interesting that

[01:13:48] three members of the cast of some are going to be at new york comic con along with the

[01:13:52] creator um who will be there to to promote good omen season two i wonder will they have an

[01:13:56] impromptu panel even a retrospective panel about season one of uh of sandman we might get uh some

[01:14:01] kind of nod it's just a point that they may make an excerpt yeah but we're hopeful we're

[01:14:05] hopeful we're going to see more sandman uh but let's go on to some feedback let's go on to

[01:14:09] some thoughts from our wonderful fellow dreamers about what they thought about this bonus episode

[01:14:14] first up we got an email in from coffee and vodka who says greetings fellow dream determined

[01:14:18] defenders the connective tissue of the dream of a thousand cats and colli of e is man's cruelty

[01:14:23] his cold sense of privilege in determining reality around himself and his own desires

[01:14:28] it makes sense that these stories were connected in the creative team series pitch

[01:14:31] that they were set after the events of the series itself was a nice coincidence to the

[01:14:34] accidental release at its timing sandro o's voice bereaved fully feline mother and melisanti

[01:14:42] mohutz victimized muse portrayals were empathetically realized the brick being dropped into that

[01:14:47] bag of mewing kittens and implied brutal rape of calliope scenes impossible to remove remove from

[01:14:53] memory in many ways as if not more affecting than the sound of her wings dreams reaction to

[01:14:59] calliope's plight showcased his newer kinder and more forgiven nature brought about during

[01:15:04] his season one journey also it was nice to get a reference to their son orpheus and his impact

[01:15:09] on morpheus's storyline this early in the run but best not to get ahead of ourselves five

[01:15:14] alzheimer authors feral felines and unexpected episodes out of five peace and take care coffee

[01:15:20] and vodka thanks coffee and vodka and completely agree around you know that this connective tissue

[01:15:28] and the other thing as well i didn't say it there when we were just doing a roundup of calliope

[01:15:35] but you know melisanti mohutz and it's that stoic that sort of you know it's almost like a swan

[01:15:45] it's like this unbearable awfulness happening to her and yet has the grace that yes a punishment

[01:15:55] or justice needs to be had but it is it can't be vengeance or revenge and it because that

[01:16:04] effectively translates their awfulness their evil onto her ultimately and so this this kind of

[01:16:14] poised clearness as to what they're doing is wrong what they can do to make it right

[01:16:22] all the way through is really really powerful and really strong it shows the strength of calliope

[01:16:30] despite this degradation that's happening to us so you know i think mohutz sort of portrayal of that is

[01:16:38] just class yeah absolutely brilliant absolutely great thoughts coffee vodka he just mentioned

[01:16:43] one thing that we didn't we didn't talk about the accidental release of this episode and it's

[01:16:48] timing and we forgot to talk about this i remember out of the conversation with chris when we had

[01:16:52] when we were talking about sandman there is a review show hosted by trixie matel and

[01:17:00] catch it who drag queens from rupal's drag race who do official reviews for netflix they were

[01:17:05] clearly given all the level episodes of the sandman show to review and unfortunately they did a

[01:17:10] review of dream of thousand cats and with images from the episode proving that they were real

[01:17:16] they weren't just speculative ideas that they had that this might be coming to sandman and

[01:17:20] put the video out on their channel it was promptly removed with about 10 minutes when

[01:17:25] netflix got hold of it but that was four days before the episode appeared on netflix and so

[01:17:31] we have two wonderful drag queens to thank for this episode coming out on the 19th of august i

[01:17:35] wonder when it might have been released it might have been their halloween episode they might

[01:17:38] have suddenly been dropping it in october or something but i think we we may have trixie

[01:17:43] matel and catch it to thank for this episode come out so quickly after the first season

[01:17:47] exactly thank you ladies and thank you coffee and vodka uh as well absolutely we also got an

[01:17:54] email in from kate he says hello i have been enjoying the sandman podcast a lot and actually

[01:18:00] found out about it from your umbrella academy podcast which i also enjoyed and so when you

[01:18:05] mentioned you also had a sandman podcast i was in good stuff kate at the end of the first

[01:18:11] episode i actually said wow out loud not all of your episodes have been released yet and so you

[01:18:17] may have already addressed this but i was wondering if when there was a reference to the family man

[01:18:23] collector at the serial convention if that was actually jeds foster dad and he couldn't make it

[01:18:29] because the carinthian killed him speaking of the serial convention i like how it reminded me

[01:18:36] of roald doll's the witches and their hotel convention and the feeling of dread that was

[01:18:41] invoked although the witches is of course a kids book when i think about it it's kind of just

[01:18:47] as messed up the witches in their way are also serial killers anyway thank you for the podcast

[01:18:53] and keep up the good work sincerely kate in san francisco thanks so much kate yeah i think

[01:19:00] the parallels of roald doll's the witches and their hotel convention

[01:19:04] and you know they're kidnapping and uh eating of children uh is exactly like the serial convention

[01:19:12] in that sense so you know there's there's certainly parallels there and i mean isn't it just

[01:19:18] fantastic that roald doll could always get this um darkness into children's books you know we

[01:19:27] there's a lot of a lot of the time we try and you know try and sort of withdraw children from certain

[01:19:35] horrors in a way and and yet some of my favorite children's books even if it's just like the

[01:19:41] nursery rhymes you think of red riding hoods you think you know you think of all these different

[01:19:46] tales there's there's also a learning in that you know don't don't go to hotels and speak

[01:19:53] to strangers and not certainly witch strangers because they you know they they like to boil the

[01:19:59] the children alive and and feed on them to keep them young and don't stick your hands in the fire

[01:20:04] you get that from a story you certainly don't let every child is going to stick their hand in a

[01:20:08] fire they get that from stories you didn't do that yeah it's like the Hansel and Gretel you

[01:20:12] know so yeah absolutely love the parallels uh that you've you've made the a really good

[01:20:19] theory on this on the family man as well case that's a that's a really interesting theory actually

[01:20:23] there there is a connection in DC comics the family man was a character in Constantine comics and had

[01:20:29] been killed by Constantine about a month before that issue came out so that's the reason why he

[01:20:34] can't appear at the serial killer convention he's actually a DC comics character who was killed

[01:20:38] by John Constantine there you go yeah so good catch I didn't I didn't even think about that

[01:20:43] she got on the episode itself but that's that's how it was connected into other DC comics at

[01:20:48] the time thank you so much Kate and thank you for calling at the umbrella academy I hope you enjoyed

[01:20:52] the last season too moving over to Facebook we had some feedback from Donald Dennis who had this to say

[01:20:59] having now watched them I like them both I don't know that either of the stories was better

[01:21:04] done here than in the comics but they were a nice treat at the end of a work week yep

[01:21:10] definitely a nice treat personally I think probably slightly better done than the comics but again

[01:21:16] and preferences taste and everyone has a different taste that's the fair bits do it yeah I'd probably

[01:21:23] say call I be better on the show dream of thousand cats probably better in the comic but yeah but

[01:21:30] either way I could watch you could have done motion that comic and I think it would have

[01:21:35] been just as good it's a hard one I have my imagination is pretty good for comics

[01:21:44] absolutely absolutely thanks Donald yeah thanks Donald next up and finally we have a piece of

[01:21:48] feedback from Dr Bob Phillips who said the cats were cute but to have three quarters of an hour

[01:21:55] with the war master in evil worry was a delight main learning point pronounced calliope not caliope

[01:22:06] second learning point check the medical students bag for surgical placements tertiary

[01:22:11] learning point if I ever need an example of hypnomania come back to this well there's some

[01:22:17] learnings dr Bob certainly calliope all the way and callope maybe not I think dodgy medical

[01:22:25] students need to have their bags checked before they leave the lecture theater or even if

[01:22:33] I guess maybe if they're doing actual autopsy stuff definitely yes certainly some of the tales I've

[01:22:40] heard yes don't go away down to say particularly like the way that Maddox's character couldn't

[01:22:48] initially use the lectern microphone properly almost basically a three finger typist and the

[01:22:54] strong eyeliner game for an arius aka morpheus thank you so much dr Bob yep the eyeliner game is on

[01:23:01] exactly you need to mix it up with me when there's just some amazing makeup and kind of character

[01:23:09] design in the show I think he needs a deep sort of red on his eyeliner game though to be honest

[01:23:17] I really do go with his ruby much better there you go I love it I love it and I also yeah again

[01:23:24] about the realism of the show how great it is that Maddox can choose the microphone and also

[01:23:28] as a really bad type of Steven though he's supposed to be this world-renowned author that's a good

[01:23:33] I could touch a realism there as well excellent stuff thanks dr Bob for your thoughts and thanks

[01:23:37] everybody for sharing your thoughts about the Sandman for the entirety of the season of our

[01:23:42] coverage of the Sandman on Netflix we hope we'll be back with Sandman season two if not we do

[01:23:48] have Good Omens season two coming up on prime video and also as I mentioned earlier on an

[01:23:52] Anci Boys which will appear on prime video later on I think early next year and it's been

[01:23:57] coming I think next week of a release date for that as well but we'll be covering both of those

[01:24:01] Neil Gaiman shows on this main feed on TV podcast industries comm so make sure you stay subscribed

[01:24:06] to the podcast or maybe you'll find something else that we're covering that you might be

[01:24:10] interested in we're covering Lord of the Rings the rings of power at the moment

[01:24:13] and also closing out our coverage of Marvel's She-Hulk as well so lots of very different

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[01:24:23] or just tv to podcast industries on your podcast catcher of choice we are going to be doing a host

[01:24:29] of entertainment over the next 12 to 18 to 24 months who knows what's going to keep coming

[01:24:34] there's many shows coming there's going to be something you love so make sure you subscribe

[01:24:39] and if you really enjoyed what you hear you can support the show by heading on over to patreon.com

[01:24:45] slash tv podcast industries and support us for an ongoing monthly amount any of your choice

[01:24:50] or you can do a one-off donation by heading to buymeacoffee.com slash tvpi and that can literally

[01:24:57] buy our editor-in-chief coffee yeah and a quick huge thanks to Gail Cleary for her buy us a coffee

[01:25:06] effectively or buy me a coffee which came through really good to get the one off support

[01:25:12] to help with all the different things that are on needs such as the hosting of the website

[01:25:18] and all the processing that goes into the podcast so thanks Gail yeah not to mention all the coffee I

[01:25:24] need to do all the editing and production exactly that's literally why we buy him a coffee thank you

[01:25:29] so much Gail you can also support us by liking reviewing because you know you love those five

[01:25:37] stars and of course sharing the podcast because sharing the podcast is what gentlemen sharing the

[01:25:42] love it is sharing the love or should I say it's sharing the dream yes yes thank you so much for

[01:25:49] everyone for joining us but with that I believe boys we should head off to the realm of dreams

[01:25:55] thanks so much for joining us we will talk to you again next time yes thanks so much fellow

[01:26:00] dreamers for joining us on our journey through the dreamscape of the sandman it has been

[01:26:06] fantastic and remember in the meantime keep watching keep listening and keep dreaming night night