[00:00:00] This is the Pennyworth Podcast on TV Podcast Industries, we're back talking about Pennyworth Season 2 Episode 8 The Hangmans Noose. I've brought a devastating new weapon onto the battlefield. Our enemies will soon be forced to surrender. Very soon. I stand proudly on that reward. And humbly ask for your votes.
[00:00:52] Thank you. Each council member will speak in ascending order of rank. I say yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. I say yes. The motion is carried. Gotham, save England! Gotham, save England! Welcome back fellow governors.
[00:01:57] We're talking about Pennyworth Season 2 Episode 8 on TV Podcast Industries. This one's called The Hangmans Noose and I'm one of your hosts, Derek. Hello there fellow governors and Gothamites. I am one of your other hosts, John. Yes. The Hangmans Noose. No one actually got hung though here.
[00:02:15] Weirdly, you know this I might have just noticed it for the first time. There's loads of nooses in the opening credits of the episode and I was wondering whether it was on all the other credits of all the other episodes.
[00:02:24] The first time I've seen it is when London flips over, you see all the nooses swinging. I wonder if it was just in my head the name of the episode that I noticed it for the first time here.
[00:02:33] I'm sure it's been there since the start of the show. Yeah, I think so. I think so. But certainly yes, a lot of people are on the chopping block here and I guess the reference is to the ultimatum that is received by the English League here. Yeah.
[00:02:52] The Hangmans Noose is sort of, dare I say it, hanging over them. It is the breath before the deep plunge as Gandalf would say or it is, you know, the feeling of the axe on the back of your neck before it is chopped off. Absolutely. Yeah.
[00:03:11] The Hangmans Noose being definitely a form of execution that the English League have used before on some of the members of the Raven Union last season, right? So at the end of the season when Harwood got sent off to prison, some of the other compatriots
[00:03:25] weren't as lucky as he was at the time. We are going to go into full spoilers of this episode. Obviously, as we go in as normal as we go into the detail of Pennyworth, we are a little
[00:03:36] bit late with this episode a little later than we usually are with the Pennyworth episodes because actually we just started podcasting a bunch of other stuff. We're also podcasting on Falcon and the Winter Soldier over in Disney Plus, which comes out each week on Fridays.
[00:03:49] And we've also added Invincible, the first three episodes of Invincible, the new cartoon or the new animated series from Robert Kirkman over on Amazon Prime. We were able to cover the first three episodes of that last week.
[00:04:01] So we have so much stuff going on that unfortunately Pennyworth got a little bit delayed only because it's the episode that comes out later than the others. I'm also blaming the hour going forward as well to summertime. Yes, we did lose there. Daylight saving time.
[00:04:14] And yes, it was shocked to the system. We need to get an hour less in bed. I know, not fun, not fun at all. But thank you so much for following us along with us for this season of Pennyworth. Only a few more episodes left.
[00:04:26] We were kind of speculating last week as to whether this was the last episode 208. And then luckily, thanks to Epyx, the next episode has already appeared in our previews for episode nine.
[00:04:36] So we know at least we got one more, probably two more as the season closes out for season two. Really call out that there was an interview with the cast and Bruno Heller at WonderCon at home at this weekend. You can see that over on YouTube.
[00:04:49] A really good interview with all the cast actually, really good fun seeing everybody there talking about season two, talking about how it's all been set up. But what's really interesting about it is Bruno Heller seems like he's very in depth in writing season three of Pennyworth.
[00:05:03] Yes, what a shocker that was. Well yes, but no confirmation that we have a season three from Epyx just yet. He says he's doing a treatment of season three, didn't he? I think that's how he phrased it. Kind of.
[00:05:15] Yeah, I like the surprise on some of the actors faces when he says you wait until you see what happens in season three. One of the big things he calls out is now we have the four major people that created Batman.
[00:05:25] We have Thomas and Martha, of course, who technically biologically creates Batman and Bruce. We have Alfie who brings him up and teaches him fighting skills as we saw in Gotham. And now we have Lucius Fox on the show who's the fourth person who gives him
[00:05:39] some of the gadgets and technology and also some of his some of his core heart and ideas of how he deals with the world around him. So so now that they have all four of these people on the show, Bruno Heller
[00:05:50] seems very confident that if he gets to season three, we'll see a lot more of those personality traits that lead to the creation of Bruce Wayne and Batman coming out in that season. Absolutely. And of course, the marrying of the human form with technology is
[00:06:05] very evident right at the end of this episode. But we will get into that with our spoiler filled discussion. Before we kick off with some of the episode details, remember, you can head on over to TV podcast industries.com to subscribe
[00:06:23] on any podcast catcher of your choice to listen to our discussion of Pennyworth season two. We are on Spotify, Apple podcasts, Google podcasts and any other straight laced or groovy podcast player. Absolutely. And of course, if you go over to TV podcast industries
[00:06:42] or subscribe to the main TV podcast industry feed, you will get access to our invincible podcast plus our Falcon the Witcher soldier podcast and hundreds of other episodes of podcasting that we've done over the last six years. So thanks so much for joining us.
[00:06:55] Let's get into our discussion about the Hangman's noose. This episode was written by Seth Sinclair who wrote season one episode four and also wrote season two episode four, which you spoke about a couple of weeks ago. The episode was directed by Catherine Mooreshead.
[00:07:06] Once again, she directed episode seven of this series of the last one that was just up. So we spoke about her last week. John, do you want to tell us what they gave us with your synopsis for season two episode eight of Pennyworth, the Hangman's noose?
[00:07:18] Sure. The death of Lord Harwood seemingly sparks the potential for the negotiation of peace terms as the English League in an act of reconciliation allows the funeral of Harwood to take place in League occupied north London. But as both parties sit around the negotiating table following the funeral
[00:07:35] ceremony, the Raven Union deliver and automate them to the English League to surrender unconditionally or feel the full force of the weapon storm cloud. Elsewhere, Bette and Peggy Sykes seek revenge for Harwood's death and go after John Saltz mistress Vicky de French.
[00:07:53] They hope to use Vicky as a hostage. But while an attack on the conniving salt is still on the table, Katie again persuades Bette to spare Vicky's life. And so Vicky becomes another window display at Sykes House of Pain.
[00:08:07] Meanwhile, after staying in England to work with Thomas Wayne, Martha, Lucius and the English League, Alfie has unfinished business with Gully Troy over the affair with his wife Melanie. Confronting him at his house and despite being prepared,
[00:08:21] Alfie is overpowered and forced by Gully to play a deadly game of cat and mouse in Epping Forest. Injured and bleeding out, Alfred manages to use all his survival skills to stop Gully and is rescued by his best friend Dave Boy and his mother.
[00:08:37] At Raven Union headquarters, as voting by the Raven Council begins to install Saltz as the supreme leader, a very familiar face joins the unanimous vote in support of John Saltz. A very, very familiar face. Indeed. And not quite the familiar body that we remember,
[00:08:58] but nonetheless a familiar face. A very shocking ending, really. We will talk about it and about as we go through our main points of the episode. Where do you want to start, John? We normally start with Alfie, the boys and the job.
[00:09:09] Alfie does have a bit of a core center for the episode, but it is different to the main overall storyline this episode. Do you want to start there? Yeah, it really is. It is the game of cat and mouse, the hunting of Alfred in the wood by Gully.
[00:09:24] And not his team, it is left to Gully. You know, he wants the trophy in that sense. But it's the unfinished business between Gully and Alfred over Alfred's affair with Melanie. Yeah, Gully going full Jason Voorhees here as he stabs.
[00:09:47] Alfie sends him off into the woods and gives him a five minute head start and then just walks slowly after him following the trail of blood that really felt. It really felt as I say, like Jason Voorhees felt like he was going like a serial
[00:09:59] killer from horror movie in here. But but yeah, we do find out that he wasn't being on the level really with Alfie, even if Alfie had gotten Gully, he left strict instructions with his man to kill Alfie when he went back.
[00:10:12] So no matter what, Alfie wasn't supposed to get out of this thing alive. No, exactly. I mean, Alfred goes completely prepared with a gun, but effectively the remaining members of Gully's team, you know, point guns at him, sneak in behind.
[00:10:28] And yeah, I mean, you're in this lovely sea of destruction and chaos that Gully has done. I mean, you know, there's a great line where Alfred says, I see you spurred the TV and then he chucks an ash straight through it straight through it.
[00:10:44] So yeah, Gully has not really dealt with Melanie's betrayal and leaving him basically very well at all. But he hasn't gone after Alfie. So you do have this really nice thing at the start where Dave Boy is at Alfred's house with his mother looking after his Alfred's mom.
[00:11:07] And, you know, it's just really on tenterhooks. He's looking out between the net curtains. He's got gun in hand. He's keeping everyone on edge to the point where he has to sort of calm himself
[00:11:22] down with a good bottle of whiskey, which he goes through most of it before Alfred comes back. Excuse for Dave Boy though. Yeah, but it really is the sense that they feel Gully is coming for them.
[00:11:36] And in the end, it's that Gully knew that Alfred would come to him. He knew that that sense of honor that Alfred has, the sense of, you know, finishing the unfinished business effectively, that he would make his way eventually to Gully's house, which is a good thing.
[00:11:58] He didn't leave to go to America then because otherwise he would be waiting there for quite a long time forever. He really would. And then, as you say, you know, in order to give him an advantage,
[00:12:09] he stabs Alfred in the stomach and gives him five minutes head start in order to then hunt and track him down and kill him. And the thing is here is that Gully is quite clear he is going to kill Alfred.
[00:12:27] You know, Alfred is trying to kind of give a bit of the old talk and get himself out of it. He thinks, yeah, he does think there's that, you know, he can do the cheeky chappy routine to kind of like calm everything down and to sort of dispell
[00:12:47] or just sort of dissipate the tension and the proceedings that, you know, he knows are coming. He feels he can do that with his banter, his chit chat. But it's just it's not working at all. And so you have this hunt through Epping Forests effectively.
[00:13:13] Yeah, he's not alone though. He is accompanied by Bazaar who was returned as his spirit guide throughout this section. I really like seeing Haines and I bet it back on the show. Yeah, me too. We saw it back in episode five at just a short moment really.
[00:13:27] This time he seems much more like a guide to Alfie, but I love that kind of idea with him where Bazaar's kind of telling him, you know, why the hell did you did you not go to America basically? These are all thoughts that are within Alfie's head.
[00:13:40] Remember this isn't I don't think a ghost visitation from Bazaar, at least to these opening kind of conversations between the two of them. Because I love for Alfie's asking Baza, you know, do you have any practical information for me here? And he's like, well, you're stuck.
[00:13:53] You're gone. You're bleeding out, mate. You're going to be dead in a couple of hours. Yeah, stop running because you're just you're just making the blood spurt more with the exertion that you're doing. But yeah, I mean, this Bazaar spirit guide was really nice.
[00:14:07] I mean, it is the thoughts of Alfie. But I also like to think that it is his thoughts as how Bazaar would say. Exactly. You know, what he would expect Bazaar to say to him, it is that kind of good bad angel on the shoulder type thing.
[00:14:28] And Bazaar is the voice of reason and logic and rational thought. And, you know, Alfred here has gone off on impulse with what happened with Melanie in terms of suddenly deciding not to go to America. And, you know, it is really nice.
[00:14:46] And it also, again, just reminds us of that importance that Bazaar has within that group, which is really good. And, you know, he's there saying, you know, I'm also here to show you the way once, you know, if you die.
[00:15:03] Yeah. So well, that's the one I was wondering about whether that second kind of appearance of Bazaar where we have the lights coming out, they're going to go into the light moment for a former or asking Alfie
[00:15:13] if he wants to leave now and not live, then Bazaar will guide him on the next stage. Effectively. I was wondering whether they were really making a comment on, you know, as I say, the first bit was just the thoughts of Alfie translated to Bazaar.
[00:15:26] And the second bit was actually Bazaar returning from the world beyond effectively to guide Alfie on to the next life, I suppose, in some way. Like, is that the way they were kind of doing it? That that one's the thought inside Alfie's head.
[00:15:40] And the other one is actually the spirit of Bazaar coming back. No way to know for a deafness, but I like that there could it could be. Well, and I think the light at that time is coming then from the gully's van
[00:15:51] where one of his henchmen is waiting there for Gully to return. Yeah. And you know, again, then he tries to set upon Alfie. But luckily in the nick of time, we have Mrs. Pennyworth along with Dave Boy coming in here as well.
[00:16:17] Now, in fairness, Alfie's got the moves and I guess that the great thing here is that Alfie does manage to escape from Gully by using all his survival techniques, all the techniques he's used in the jungle during the military.
[00:16:34] Most importantly, the one that he learned from Gully, which is a great scene because just uncaught immediately what's happened. You wonder what he's doing, don't you? It's like as if you think that Gully stepped on something and a piece of
[00:16:47] branch has just happened to him and pale him. But then as it pans out, you realise that's the trap that Alfie was setting for him. The release mechanism, Alfred kicks away and it's this big, pointy stick on a recoiled branch that gets Gully in the side.
[00:17:07] And the thing is you wonder where the hell this branch is coming from, because you don't necessarily fully connect what Alfred's doing with his feet when he kicks away this kind of supporting stake that's keeping the trap coiled for release. So it's really kind of good.
[00:17:27] I really liked how they played into the, you know, his former military past there. And also, I guess the cherry on the cake in the sense, at least for Alfred, not for Gully is that it's one of Gully's own techniques that he has taught Alfred and his unit.
[00:17:49] And the kind of gallows humor from Gully saying that he actually killed the person that taught him how to do it as well. That was quite an interesting word. Just want to quickly, quickly shout out the teaching moment, I suppose,
[00:18:02] for Alfie here is that he actually says to Gully, I'm so glad you made me do this. You show me how much I love this. You show me how much I want to be in these kind of situations.
[00:18:12] So interestingly, Gully was just doing it effectively to torture Alfie, chase him down and kill him. But it turns out that now he's got an Alfie back to the kind of person that he was before.
[00:18:22] He's really good at this and he really likes being in these kind of positions and fighting against other people, you know? Considering he looks, I think he's pretending to be hurt much more than he is when Gully arrives and then he is able to fight back against Gully.
[00:18:38] But when he makes it back to the car and Gully's man attacks him, I think by that stage, he is pretty close to death as we saw from the Bazza visitation, but he's still able to jump up and still able to
[00:18:48] beat the guy in hand to hand combat. So Alfie's a pretty tough competitor when he wants to be and when he needs to be. Yeah, most definitely. I think as well, the other good thing about just coming back to Bazza as the spirit guide,
[00:19:02] you know, he he actually mentioned something really important to Alfred as well here about, you know, that he's he's he's a good person and he's searching for that, but that, you know, he's always strayed from that path.
[00:19:19] And what he needs to do is search for a call in order to put his talents and that to best use. And that really, for me, feels like a massive setup as to how Alfred would view and his employment with Thomas and Martha Wayne and with Bruce Wayne
[00:19:45] and, you know, as Batman and even growing up as an orphan. That is the sense of duty and purpose and the call to do something good. Yeah, that really I felt connects in. I think you get that from him from his desire to stay in England to try
[00:20:05] and do something meaningful as well. But I like that it has this personal touch from Bazza because you can sense that coming from from Bazza if he was still alive. You know, yeah, it's like how many times you're going to try and undermine
[00:20:21] your own life by doing things that are going to corrode it or sort of impact it. Yeah, exactly. And just kind of speaking to that, I suppose at the end when Miss P arrives with Dave Boy, he does call for an ambulance for Gully.
[00:20:38] He doesn't leave him out there to die. He does. He does make the right choice to not kill him. Yeah, exactly. That is a choice. Speaking of Mrs. P, Mrs. Pennyworth, her right hook in the house with the with the other henchmen,
[00:20:52] I suppose, of Gully is so good. I love that she just takes the silk scarf off her neck, wraps it around her knuckles, gives a couple of punches to the woman that's supposed to be guarding
[00:21:02] Gully's house and gets the information out of her as to where Alfie's gone. I thought that was great just to see Mrs. Pennyworth in action. Definitely. And she's the one that persuades Dave Boyd and to go and for her
[00:21:15] to go with her. So like she, you know, again, it's it's that motherly element to her. Mama bear. Yeah, exactly. Which was really, really good. Yep. Yeah. Once again, not off the road. He licked us as we say that. I think.
[00:21:31] Let's get out of the English League and talk about what's going on with their connections. We normally put in Thomas and Martha into the English League since Martha's a member and Thomas has lots of connection there.
[00:21:40] So this is where we'll probably talk about our big reveal to Thomas of the pregnancy of Martha, because it all seems to be going quite well. You know, they're fumbling at the door and they're going inside for a night of passion once again.
[00:21:56] It seems to all be back on track. Yeah, really. Yeah, they kind of mended their differences last week, I suppose. We in the scene we didn't see on screen in the scene where Martha convinced Thomas to stay in England and join up with the English League.
[00:22:09] So you can tell that men of their relationship, you know, but I love how this scene plays out. I love this whole idea where she's kind of wants to tell them, but doesn't really have the words to tell them.
[00:22:20] And then he says, you know, I've got a condom and wallet if you need me to use it and Martha kind of responds well, if we're going to have sex, you don't really need the condom because you didn't use one last time.
[00:22:29] You know, I love again, it's that kind of way that Martha has. Yeah. Of being very adversarial with Thomas. Like it's almost like she's attacking him and he's attacking her all the time. This is a really interesting relationship we know from right the way back to the
[00:22:46] first episode of the first season, these two characters, they really have a different type of banter and they challenge each other constantly. Sometimes in a good way, sometimes pushing things forward and sometimes in a really negative way like we see here where
[00:23:01] Thomas takes his absolutely standard approach here and goes, well, if you're pregnant, then I insist that we get married. I'm going down tomorrow to the courthouse to get gala's marriage papers and that is not the type of person that Martha is.
[00:23:13] You know, Martha was looking for proposed to me, maybe, you know, ask me to marry you and then we'll go and do the go and do the thing. If I say yes kind of thing, but because he's going, I'm going to have
[00:23:25] to make an honest woman of you now that you're pregnant with my child. You know, I'm not going to have a bastard in my family. Like there was no romance in there at all. No consideration for what Martha might think.
[00:23:36] So he's well, I was going to say he was kicked out of the house. She leaves him behind when she goes out to get some air and that's kind of it done from her point of view.
[00:23:44] What do you think of this kind of moment between the two of them? I actually really liked it because I think moving forward, I can see that, you know, you can envision Thomas Wayne and Martha Wayne in the future not being this perfect married couple.
[00:24:02] Exactly. And that she's strong and confident about herself. And I like this. I actually like the idea that maybe it's Martha that is the driving force here in in Bruce's life a bit more, at least in terms of that know how getting stuff
[00:24:23] done and being that kind of freedom fighter side of things. Thomas is maybe on the more medical side, the strategic side of working with you know, such as like the GCPD because of his experience in the CIA.
[00:24:43] And I kind of beginning to really enjoy this notion that it's not that perfect picture book kind of couple. And I like that she is very sure on what she will say to Thomas and she will not take his nonsense. Absolutely. And once again, another great
[00:25:04] Bruno Heller touch the show runner for the show, another great touch from him. You know these two are going to end off together. You know they're going to have at least Bruce Wayne as a son and they're going
[00:25:14] to live together and you know those stories of those characters. But once again, another moment when they could have it could have all worked out fine. It's good if in a moment where Thomas goes and he seems quite happy.
[00:25:24] He seems, you know, no particular issue with her being pregnant. But because of how he handles it, they're pushed further apart again, even though everybody knows they end off together. They're pushed really far apart once again. Something we never mentioned on the podcast,
[00:25:39] I think about Thomas and Martha Wayne is that they, well, at least in some comic book stories, they do have another son. They do have Thomas Wayne Jr. So we were wondering Thomas Wayne Jr. tends to be the older son of Bruce in comic books.
[00:25:56] So possibly this is Thomas Wayne Jr. That's that Martha's pregnant with at the moment. So maybe things aren't all happy with their first child. If they're going to get on that path of having Thomas Wayne Jr.
[00:26:11] How do you think that would go down with fans of this universe? Because Thomas Wayne Jr. is not well, not very well known. It's usually someone that's quite hidden and jumps back out as when story requires it to be to have a villain connected to Bruce Wayne.
[00:26:26] So we've seen Thomas Wayne in connection with the Court of Ales, for example. We've seen Thomas Wayne appear, I think, once or twice more over the many, many decades. But what would you think if at the end of the series,
[00:26:39] Martha gives birth to a child and they name it Thomas Wayne Jr.? How do you think people would react to that? It's not Bruce, if that was the choice. Yeah, I guess it's all leading to Bruce.
[00:26:50] But I guess I could also see it being Thomas just because of the age of Alfred here. You know, I pretty much Alfred is quite old when Bruce is born, certainly when he takes his first steps towards being Batman. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. And you're thinking that's maybe 20 years.
[00:27:18] So I still think it's really early days of Alfred Pennyworth. He's still that kind of young guy. Yeah. And so it's really conceivable that it could be Thomas Wayne Jr. And whether the fans would like it, I'm not entirely sure. I'd like to see the reaction.
[00:27:37] I think definitely everyone just, as you say, because Thomas Wayne Jr. isn't as well known, it is about Bruce. And I think it would be tough not to do that. But there is that potential pathway in the story for it to be Bruce's older brother.
[00:27:57] Well, like if you want to line it up with everything, you know, they don't always line these things up. And as I say in a lot of media, there's no mention at all of Thomas Wayne. So so they could just ignore it or they could say, well,
[00:28:10] to be absolutely factually correct, we have to have an older brother before Bruce comes along. So let's let that be Thomas Wayne Jr. You know, they could they could do it that way. I'd just be intrigued to see what the reaction would be from the audience.
[00:28:22] And if something happened, like for example, if Martha put Thomas up for adoption, maybe if she didn't feel like they were going to have this relationship, you know, I don't know. There's choices that could make us interesting for for being Thomas Wayne Jr. Absolutely.
[00:28:37] But it's just really intrigued. I really really liked the scene because we knew this was coming. We knew at some point, Thomas would find out that Martha was pregnant with his child. So intriguing how he dealt with it, how badly he dealt with it and how it's
[00:28:48] put another wedge in their relationship, which eventually will will be healed in some way. Absolutely. I think the other thing here as well with the broader English League is we do have Alfie kind of being an intermediary, seem coming back into the circle of
[00:29:05] the chain, you know, the upper chain of command in the English League with Aziz and the Queen. And we see him there going with Aziz to meet and parlay with the Raven Union. And immediately after Harwood's death and the meeting afterwards,
[00:29:24] but then Alfred has this unfinished business and kind of leaves. And I'm really it then comes to the the English League, I guess, and the Raven Union are intertwined with the possibility of a peace treaty between the two sides.
[00:29:42] And I think here we can move to the Raven Union because of the death of Lord Harwood, that there is this move by John Salt and Field Marshall Thursday. And I think they met on a Friday for the funeral of Lord Harwood to be held
[00:30:05] in North London, in English League occupied North London. We're talking comic books here. Yeah, this is a comic book TV show, right? And you know, nothing is evidence more than the end of the episode. This is definitely based in the DC Comics world. Right?
[00:30:20] And so when they do things like having Salt saying, well, we want to have the funeral of Harwood before we sit down and have any kind of arrangements about a bit, any kind of peace treaty, we're going to have that funeral.
[00:30:33] And then you have the conversation with where he's talking to the assistant who works in the Raven Union. And she says, but nobody's going to be able to come to the funeral if you have it
[00:30:45] in London and he goes, oh yeah, I know, but that's not the point. Instantly I was going, well, that's the casket of Lord Harwood is going to contain not his body, but storm clans. Yeah, exactly.
[00:30:57] It's going to be released at some point just after they all get out of London. It's going to be released from his casket. Like that's instantly what I'm thinking of. It's all the plans of Joker and all the plans of the villains of Batman. You were thinking that?
[00:31:08] Yeah, I was thinking exactly the same thing here, that it was a atrocious horse basically into English League, Occupied London. And so it's interesting. That's not to say that within that casket, there isn't something ready to go off and effectively weaponize it into
[00:31:32] the atmosphere, but for sure I thought something was going to happen there. I thought they're a bit silly like the industry not to at least have some kind of check. Yeah, and some kind of presence there. Yeah, exactly.
[00:31:45] But I guess if he's being buried there as well, they could always dig him up and then check. But I mean, yeah, although they were very smart at them. They didn't want to be at ground zero for it.
[00:31:55] They wanted to watch it on television in case anything happened. So all the members of it, as you see around the city, this broadcast that's coming from the funeral with Sir John making his speech to camera is being broadcast to everyone's home.
[00:32:08] Everybody's watching it every every member of our major cast, even some of the minor cast that we haven't seen in a couple of weeks. Sanders there and her father said, on slow or sitting there watching the TV, watching this this speech.
[00:32:20] So so a really good kind of moment where you show the power of what's going on with the Raven Union with Sir John, being able to reach so many homes with his speech about the. Impact that Lord Harwood has had about the light
[00:32:37] that's come from him about keeping his his ideals going and we should all stand behind those ideals to support his vision of what England should be. Exactly. So so he has used this moment as propaganda for the Raven Union sort of, you know,
[00:32:57] on the coattails of the popularity that Harwood did have. Yeah. And so, you know, because they're saying his death was a heart attack. You know, it's interesting because in the funeral as well, you've got Bet and Peggy sat on the back row kind of glaring at John Salt.
[00:33:17] And I thought they were going to do something because it's not overly guarded. You know, it's not like mass ranks of Raven Union officers and Raven Union army personnel at this funeral. Like there's not very many people in the congregation at all.
[00:33:36] So it's really I thought they were going to do something. I love Bet and Peggy here that that's exactly what you see in a lot of funerals. You just see the two ladies sitting at the back watching everybody and just commenting on everybody in the room.
[00:33:51] So I love that what Bet and Peggy are actually doing because it's them. They're picking out the victim or at least Bet is that picking out who is the person we can get to solve through.
[00:34:00] So yeah, so they're sitting there wondering who the blonde waving at John Salt. Mysteriously, not really hiding who she is at all. They're wondering who she is and it turns out that it is it is his. His mistress. Yeah, Vicky Dufresne. Yes, actress actress.
[00:34:18] And so I mean, this again, this is a nice little moment. I mean, Bet and Peggy, the rapport between the two of them and it is just so good as they go and to and kidnap and Sir John's mistress from from the theatre.
[00:34:36] And Vicky Stering in the West End in a play called Cuddly Me Corporal. If you're British and have a certain age, you'll definitely remember the carry on movies. I think a lot of people would know the carry on movies. This is what this felt like.
[00:34:51] This is the Cuddly Me Corporal. This is the theatre equivalent of the carry on movie. So massively dubious, I guess, in terms of the story. I would say absolutely. And I was getting some vibes of Barbara Windsor from from the fact that she's
[00:35:06] in a very short sort of hot pants with then the the army uniform on top. I think yeah, I think it was just a jacket and a underwear. I'm not even sure if it was even short pants. She was wearing underneath.
[00:35:20] But I love how they just drag her out of the theatre. And again, the the the intimidation that comes from Beth when Peggy's asking a question, Vicky doesn't answer. And Peggy says she asked you where you on television. It's just really good.
[00:35:38] I'm not going to have a boyfriend. Peggy and Bet repeating. She asked you a question. It's a simple yes or no. Do you have a boyfriend? It's so intimidating from from about I really love the two of them together. They're really good. They're really good.
[00:35:53] We do get a bit more insight into their relationship, really, when when they take Vicky back to the shop and Beth is challenged by Katie. She's been told and has promised Katie that she won't kill anybody or won't hurt anybody.
[00:36:08] And we do get a bit from Peggy here where she sits down and just kind of goes, I go along with what you say, Beth, you make these decisions and I clear up after you, but I don't stop you. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
[00:36:21] It seems like a different relationship than I was seeing in the past. But now it makes a lot more sense, I suppose. Peggy's not an active participant in everything that that's doing. But she knows it's much harder to stand in her way like Katie's doing really. Yeah.
[00:36:36] She knows is more difficult and she doesn't stand in her way. She just says whatever you want to do, you go ahead and do it. And I've got you back effectively. So even though it's probably the wrong decision most of the time.
[00:36:44] But there's a real nice moment as well, because Katie challenges Beth again and says, I'm not going to allow you to hurt Vicky de French because of what John Salter's done. Yeah. And it's really nice because Peggy is making a cup of tea at the time.
[00:37:02] And as Beth is considering what Katie has just said and which way she's going to decide, you've got the the whistle of the kettle just going. You're thinking, is this the end of Katie and and and Beth?
[00:37:18] And it's not that relinquishes again, but she does make it quite clear that in respect of John Salt, he is not off the table. Absolutely. And that revenge will happen with John Salt. I don't care what I've agreed to. John Salt is definitely getting it basically. Yeah.
[00:37:36] You're totally right. I mentioned before that if you've got a period piece, you use the phone to punctuate the intensity or you use the kettle boiling. Those are the two things that really you can use from from the 60s and 70s,
[00:37:52] particularly in England that will really show the intensity of the scene always. Yeah, it's really good. And of course, hilarious because Vicky de French becomes another front window display at the Sykes House of Pain. And the other guy is still there.
[00:38:12] They're both trust up in in leather with the gags and everything. It's almost like something out of Hannibal Lecter. To an extent, it's so, so good. So funny. And I love the pan across the front window. You're going to get this expectation if bats
[00:38:33] are allowed to be out of prison for much longer, they'll be 20 or 30 people stuck inside that. Yeah, the Missing's Persons list and it will be about 25 people crammed into the front window display of Sykes House of Pain. And yeah, it's just I mean, I wonder if Kate
[00:38:52] Katie is going to make it there. I thought at one point as the whistle was going off, I was thinking, oh, you know, because of the friendship with Harwoods, you do get that sense from Peggy and Bet that this is a matter of honor.
[00:39:07] And so Katie puts herself in the way of that, I guess, promise to Harwood that they made. And so I really thought either it was going to be over or potentially she was going to make it into the front window as well. Yeah, gosh.
[00:39:26] That would be an end to the love story, wouldn't it? Well, yeah, exactly. I suppose the other thing we need to talk about with the Raven Union and English League is the peace treaty effectively.
[00:39:37] I really like this moment with Salt and the crew from the Raven Union who arrive at the English League headquarters or I guess, booking in Palace by the look of the place. I guess that's where they are. I'm almost effortless.
[00:39:49] I haven't been to booking in Palace, but I can tell that's the type of building they're in. But it's interesting because the English League think they're there for a proper discussion where there's terms and where there's where they negotiate effectively
[00:40:01] and the flip of Sir John effectively now that they've gotten what they want, which is being able to bury Harwood, being able to get their face out on TV, being able to talk to people they wouldn't have gotten to talk,
[00:40:11] get their propaganda out there effectively saying this is unconditional surrender that we want and Aziz, Prime Minister of the country and the Queen, both have to give themselves up without any question at all to the Raven Union.
[00:40:26] So quite a significant flip on what they'd said, but I love that he does call out. That's exactly what I said was going to happen. I said I was going to come here and we were going to have this discussion.
[00:40:36] I never said that that we were going to arrange terms or have a peace treaty or anything like that. I said we would come to this arrangement. Yeah, it's not a negotiation. It is an ultimatum and it's with the backing of
[00:40:55] a pretty well known biological weapon in storm clouds. And so this really does put Aziz and the Queen in a very, very tight spot. And I guess that that explains why you see Aziz and the Queen then getting close.
[00:41:15] I mean, holding hands on the sofa and a little bit of a nibble. And so never kiss. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So I reckon, you know, I guess it's pretty much got that there's a lot for them to lose.
[00:41:29] And so that's kind of suddenly made them a little affectionate to. Well, I think this moment really is them saying that's it. We're done. There's no other way out of this situation. We have to give ourselves up. That feels like it doesn't feel like they're getting close because
[00:41:44] they happen to be sitting on the couch together and had no too many it's a tight situation. Oh, we are done before we go down. Let's have a kiss effectively before we go. And we also see at the end of the episode here,
[00:41:59] the big kind of big final moment that we said we talk about the end of the episode here, we have Sir John taking over the Raven Union. He has made his way up the ranks now officially. Thursday had said that wasn't going to happen.
[00:42:10] The army were going to be the ones that would be in charge of the whole situation, but we know that he has been making these moves to get himself into this position. Sir John has been making his moves all the way from
[00:42:21] getting his title of Sir John and now getting a unanimous vote from everybody in the room, including somebody that we absolutely didn't expect to be back. Absolutely. Mr. Not. Well, I say that, but I think we did actually start season two going.
[00:42:37] One of the comic book tropes of never seeing the body means that it's possible that someone will come back. You know, well, that is true. The explosion happened. We we know that Alfie shot and didn't kill his father in that explosion.
[00:42:50] And we saw Alfie and the Queen getting out of the building effectively. But that didn't necessarily mean that Mr. Pennyworth was fully dead or didn't make it out. We didn't necessarily mean that. And now we know Mr. Pennyworth has been turned into Davros from Dr.
[00:43:03] Who effectively looking very like 60s Davros there. And it links back quite nicely. The initial meeting between Aziz, Alfie and Salt and Field Marshall Thursday. Yeah. And because Salt makes reference to his dad. And he did in episode one as well.
[00:43:22] And again, it seems like another pet project of Salt and that he's been working on. Because, you know, Salt has mentioned that his dad was a true patriot. And so this idea of that kind of living embodiment.
[00:43:36] But I wondered it was it was really interesting that move were Salt was getting ready to go to the Raven Council chambers. So that seems to be like that vote was the political side of things. You didn't see anyone in the army, though.
[00:43:52] You just saw the people in their black uniforms. Yeah. And it kind of cuts to sort of buttons being pressed and like ventilator type thing. And I was thinking is this one to do with Stormclair?
[00:44:04] That this is the, you know, this was the bomb part and the pump part for sort of weaponizing in the air the storm cloud. And so when it pulled back that all those components that you were showing were to keep Mr.
[00:44:22] Pennyworth alive in his new kind of Davros form, then it was like, oh, wow. OK, they've actually done this and like for Jews. This is really interesting because, you know, we've seen Alfie have those memories and flashbacks where he's been talking to his dad all through the season.
[00:44:43] You know, his his mom still talks about him as well. So this will be an interesting revelation for the Pennyworths. Absolutely. Once again, we are in a comic book universe. This is a DC Comics in London. That's absolutely what they've always said. This isn't a historical show.
[00:45:04] Periods are mixed, all that kind of stuff. And when you do get a comic book moment like this that feels like something at a Gotham, which is another show from Bruno Heller, it really does feel like something like that when you have a character returning from the dead
[00:45:16] and being kept alive by the villain and also supporting the villain, being the father of your main character is always a great comic book touch. I was really impressed with the way that's seeing it.
[00:45:26] And really what I was thinking when I when we saw Sir John getting ready and all those kind of moving pieces, the the the scientific stuff going on in the background, I thought he was torturing somebody else.
[00:45:35] I thought this was like what he did to George Orwell earlier on in the season in his introduction, effectively. I thought it was just a fact that he's still he's still a murderer. You know, but it turns out the opposite.
[00:45:46] Actually, he's trying to keep somebody alive for nefarious purposes, of course. Yeah, for his own gain, I guess, because of the standing of Mr. Pennyworth in the Raven Union. Exactly. Exactly. And he's a martyr, effectively. Yeah, he was or he was.
[00:46:02] No longer what do you do when you have a suicide bomber who actually didn't comes back from the dead? What's that called? I don't know. I guess if you're on that side, that's true. That's true. I think we've covered up to full episode there.
[00:46:14] Is anything else to talk about, John? No, I've got no notes from my side. Only one I wanted to pull out was just as we usually do some translation of things that are happening in the cocky rhyming slang of London.
[00:46:26] We've talked about the word Larry quite a few times. It's mentioned here again. Things are getting a bit Larry, you know? But the other one that came out here is Alfie right at the start of the episode. So if everything gets if things go a bit lemony,
[00:46:40] I'll be watching out kind of thing. So lemony is kind of a weird one. This sounds a little bit like a Jack Bannon line or it says a little bit like there's no direct translation for it, let's say.
[00:46:54] But the one that I would say it's closest to is you've heard this phrase before, don't be such a lemon like this kind of. Don't be so smart. It's kind of a really negative term that you'd use.
[00:47:06] The way they say it in in kind of cockney cockney slang is more you know, the guy was being a bit of a lemon. So I punched him as kind of the way you'd say it. So basically what Alfie's saying is if things get a bit
[00:47:17] a bit violent, a bit brutal effectively is what you say in here. So so if things if things starts to go sideways, I'll be here. Yeah, OK, it's understandable in the context. Yes, one I mean, I've heard of you lemon,
[00:47:30] which is kind of like you're a fool or, you know, but yeah, in this context, I thought it was but it was fun. It's kind of crazy language for cockney Londoners. I like that. At least that's my interpretation once again, not being from London.
[00:47:47] John, how would you rate this episode of Pennyworth season two episode eight? The Hagman's News. And I would give this four terminated dads out of five. Yes, with added laser beams. I really like this. I like the fact that, you know,
[00:48:02] you had this strive for peace between the English League and at least in good faith with the Raven Union. And I love that this was undercut by just the conniving, the ambition of John Salt. Yeah. You know, at the end of the day, he has been
[00:48:22] behind the scenes, furiously sort of feathering his own nest in order to achieve power and influence and ultimately lead the Raven Union. And truly becoming the comic book villain. Yeah, definitely. We said Harwood was starting to show signs of being
[00:48:42] so much more comic book villainy as the seasons went as the second season went on, you know, just getting the metal nose in the first season wasn't enough. This season, he got more and more like a comic book villain. And now John Salt stepping up from the background,
[00:48:54] really standing out as that comic book character. Yeah. And I like how he is a comic book character. No, but I like then how, you know, on the personal front, there's that strive for peace from Alfie towards Gully,
[00:49:06] who wants to make amends and to kind of wipe the slate clean and, you know, put that marker down and let move on effectively. And and that doesn't work either. You know, Gully doesn't want to hear any of it. Yeah. But it's ultimately I think moving to
[00:49:25] Alfred actually getting a sense of the purpose within the English League and for his home country. And also for him personally, what he what he must do. And I think that came really nicely from Baza. And I really liked him Baza back in that context.
[00:49:44] It was really good. And of course, what's not to like about, you know, part machine, part human father return. And that's going to cause all sorts of ruptions in the Pennyworth household. So yeah, that was a pretty big bomb shell and to finish on.
[00:50:05] I'm not something I expected either. They keep getting us though, John. We've done five seasons of Gotham, two seasons of Pennyworth. And still they do things like this. And we go, we would never have predicted that was going to happen.
[00:50:16] And it's not like it's massively unusual for the story to do things like this. But it's just they don't signpost it enough for us to guess these things. Maybe we're just not good at guessing. Maybe maybe that is the case for sure. But yeah, really good episode.
[00:50:30] Two more to go after this one. Really, really looking forward to seeing how they wrap up this season. I'm really hopeful that they do get a third season now after hearing the idea of what's going on from from Bruno. Definitely. Definitely.
[00:50:42] Have a little bit of feedback to go into as we close out the episode. First up, Angie Arhouse says it's great TV when the psych sisters put the beat down on someone is it me or is Peg's hair getting bigger with each episode?
[00:50:54] I agree with you guys that do seem to be rushing the story since their hiatus ended. And does this mean they're trying to wrap things up and there won't be another season? That'd be a bit of a shame. I was hoping for a bet psych spin off.
[00:51:04] That would be awesome actually. It's like a psych sisters spin off. I think it'd be really good. And I mean, interestingly enough, I think Bruno Heller has, you know, dangled that little enticing snippet that there could be a season three here. I mean, nothing's been confirmed.
[00:51:24] So it sounds all really quite positive. And the you know, he's getting into the nitty gritty of a season three of Pennyworth. So if he's right in the scripts and the show isn't produced by Epoch, we're sending back round to his house to pick those scripts.
[00:51:39] Find it how the show would have continued. And I'm totally with you, Angie. Yeah, having the psych sisters on screen is great. Really, really enjoying these two on screen. And I know this feedback was on an earlier episode in the season,
[00:51:56] but they're great in this episode too with another beat dead. Yeah, absolutely. Thanks, Angie. Roger Sprong says starting with the first episode this season, I was getting a Casablanca vibe. This pretty much clinched it when Bert and Peg are getting away at the end,
[00:52:12] walking through the trees with their shoes off. It looked like the same setting they walked through last season. Oh, it could be. Yeah, it could be indeed. Yeah, it could be. It actually probably is to be to be honest, we probably have that scene
[00:52:26] even with Jack Bannon in this episode. And I'm with Gully, sorry, with Alfie and Gully that possibly is taken place in exactly the same forest where they film all this stuff, you know, because it's very costly if you go into multiple different forests.
[00:52:40] We film it from different areas. It's probably probably much easier. Yeah, I know what you mean about the Casablanca vibe. But again, I love the twist of the Casablanca. You know, this could be the start of a beautiful friendship. And probably not for Alfie. Thanks, Roger.
[00:52:54] Yeah, thanks, Roger. Valerie over on Twitter after watching this episode says, for heaven's sake, what have they done? Alfie's dad part man machine. I can't even imagine where the show goes from here. Hopefully not too far fetched. I don't think I like it, but we'll see.
[00:53:09] Well, exactly, Valerie. I think it was a complete shock. You didn't really get the sense that this was going to happen. I guess it's almost a bit like if they decide that Martha's baby will be Thomas Wayne Jr. rather than Bruce, you know, what will what will happen?
[00:53:27] I guess the great thing about having Alfie's dad as this part man, part machine is just how it will impact Alfie and potentially his mother. Who knows where his dad will get to? Maybe that chair that he's in can lift off the ground as well.
[00:53:49] A bit like Davos. So maybe he could fly in to visit his wife effectively. What happens if Alfie has to take his father out a second time? What would the neighbors say if he killed your father twice, John? Well, exactly.
[00:54:04] Alfie definitely be running off to America at that stage. Yeah, thanks so much, Valerie. And Mrs. Anna Angel-Bannon says, I just finished it and I'm completely shocked at the ending. I didn't see that coming at all.
[00:54:17] Another brilliant episode and the very sexy Jack looked hotter than ever as Alfie, even with the gaping staff wound and the blood oozing shirt. Maybe he certainly looked great in the opening scene in his brand new suit.
[00:54:33] I love that little comment from to his mom where he's going now. Look at me ruined another suit again after being stabbed. Very good, very good stuff. Thanks very much, Anna. That's some really fun thoughts. I know it's just a shocking, shocking episodes.
[00:54:47] I love getting the reactions in from people over on Twitter as well. That's really good to hear your thoughts. Thanks so much once again for joining us for the Pennyworth podcast on TV podcast industries. Make sure you subscribe to our podcast on TV podcast industries.
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[00:55:15] Yeah, and we've just finished our coverage of One Division as well. So there's kind of another slight period piece at least for the first few episodes and over on our podcast feed as well. All of those shows are supported by your help, your support.
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[00:55:47] the production of all of these episodes that we put out for you every week. Yeah, thanks so much, fellow governors and fellow Gothamites. We will return with Pennyworth season two episode nine, Paradise Lost next week.
[00:56:03] And we'll hope you will return to join us for our spoiler filled discussion of all things to do with Paradise Lost. Again, thanks so much for joining us as always. It is a pleasure chit chatting with you, fellow Gothamites and governors.
[00:56:21] Bye. Speak to you again next time. Bye.