Dead Boy Detectives Episodes 4 and 5 Podcast

[00:00:00] This is the Sandman Podcast on TV Podcast Industries, we're back discussing the Dead

[00:00:04] Boy Detectives, episode 4, The Case of the Lighthouse Leapers and episode 5, The Case

[00:00:08] of the Two Dead Dragons.

[00:00:09] This could be your soulmate.

[00:00:11] Okay, Nico, pretty massively from anonymous letters to love.

[00:00:15] Maybe, but you're keeping them for a reason, right?

[00:00:18] I mean if there was a way that you could just find out who was sending them.

[00:00:23] Would you want to?

[00:00:26] No.

[00:00:27] No.

[00:00:28] The letters are nice.

[00:00:34] They make me feel nice, okay?

[00:00:37] But also they're all typed which is creepy serial killer territory.

[00:00:40] They might as well be written with letters cut out of magazines.

[00:00:43] Besides no one ever turns out to be who you think they are and it's disappointing.

[00:00:48] No, I get that.

[00:00:50] I've been thinking about some old memories and I'm starting to realize that I don't

[00:00:55] even know who I am.

[00:00:56] I might even be a worse person than I thought.

[00:01:00] This sweet moment got really heavy.

[00:01:04] Screw the past, you can be anybody you want.

[00:01:06] Hell, maybe you can even be somebody with a bank account.

[00:01:09] Well, the Dead Boy Detectives!

[00:01:12] Welcome back, fellow dreamers to TV podcast industries chatting about the Dead Boy Detectives.

[00:01:27] Two more episodes this week.

[00:01:29] I'm one of your hosts, Derek.

[00:01:30] Hello there, fellow dreamers.

[00:01:32] I am one of your other hosts, John.

[00:01:34] Yes, we're on to episode four and five of the Dead Boy Detectives.

[00:01:39] Two more catches in the books.

[00:01:41] Yes, lighthouse leapers and two dead dragons.

[00:01:44] Yeah, were you expecting real dragons?

[00:01:47] I thought we were in this fantasy world where we get to see dragons.

[00:01:50] I do kind of think that, but I like the little subterfuge.

[00:01:54] Yeah, yeah.

[00:01:56] All good.

[00:01:56] We are going to go into spoiler fill detail on these episodes.

[00:01:59] So if you're watching along with us, make sure you watch both episode four and episode five.

[00:02:02] And we are going to separate them slightly in the episode.

[00:02:04] But just in case we spoil anything for you, make sure you watch the episodes.

[00:02:07] And we would love if you subscribe to our main podcast feed, go over to TV podcast

[00:02:12] industries dot com loads of options over there for you to subscribe on every podcast

[00:02:16] catcher around if you want to subscribe there.

[00:02:19] And we'd also love to hear your thoughts on Dead Boy Detectives.

[00:02:21] You can email us to feedback at TV podcast industries dot com with your thoughts

[00:02:26] or popping over to our Facebook group at Facebook dot com slash groups slash TV

[00:02:30] podcast industries to leave your thoughts on one of the spoiler posts that I put up

[00:02:33] when the episodes are released on day one.

[00:02:35] Yes, let us get into our spoiler filled discussion.

[00:02:38] Let's crack on Derek, who gave us what were when and how for episode four,

[00:02:45] the case of the lighthouse sleepers.

[00:02:48] Well, the Dead Boy Detectives, of course, is based on characters created by Neil

[00:02:51] Gaiman and Matt Wagner.

[00:02:52] It was created for TV by Steve Yockey.

[00:02:54] He's also the co-showrunner alongside Beth Schwartz.

[00:02:57] The executive producer on this show, of course, is Greg Berlanti,

[00:02:59] who's well known for his work on the DC Arrowverse.

[00:03:02] Episode four was written by Joshua Conkle and Kristen Lane Tucker.

[00:03:06] Kristen was a writer on The Flight Attendant and The Black Lady Sketch Show.

[00:03:09] And Joshua was a writer on The Chilling Adventures of Sabrina.

[00:03:12] Good stuff.

[00:03:13] Yeah, lots of people coming over from the DC

[00:03:14] Arrowverse with Greg Berlanti, I think, who've worked on many of those shows.

[00:03:18] Absolutely. You can see his fingerprints on this.

[00:03:22] A little bit. A little bit.

[00:03:23] Yeah, not as much as on the DC Universe.

[00:03:25] Thankfully, absolutely.

[00:03:27] Kind of ran out of steam after time.

[00:03:29] There were there were great shows, of course, as we mentioned before,

[00:03:32] we did like a lot of the shows, but over time they kind of ran out

[00:03:35] of steam. Yeah, I would say so.

[00:03:38] I mean, I really like the Arrowverse to begin with,

[00:03:40] and then I just kind of faded away from it.

[00:03:42] So it was more yeah, it was more just it just didn't keep me

[00:03:47] coming back for the length of time that it was on.

[00:03:49] Yeah. 22 episodes, like eight seasons.

[00:03:51] It's quite a lot to carry on, isn't it?

[00:03:53] Yeah, yeah, it is a lot.

[00:03:54] But the director of this episode was Andy Armaganian.

[00:03:57] They directed two episodes of Star Trek Discovery as well

[00:04:00] and also worked on lots of other shows, including Supergirl,

[00:04:03] Legends of Tomorrow and Stargirl.

[00:04:04] Excellent stuff. Yeah.

[00:04:06] John, do you want to get the Netflix synopsis for episode four?

[00:04:09] The case of the lighthouse leapers. Sure.

[00:04:12] The team investigates a disturbing series of deaths at a lighthouse

[00:04:17] while Crystal hears a voice as she pieces together

[00:04:20] the clues to this seaside mystery.

[00:04:23] Hmm. An interesting episode overall. This one.

[00:04:25] Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

[00:04:27] I kind of enjoyed this episode and it also provided

[00:04:31] some good.

[00:04:34] Backstory for Charles, as well as having the night nurse on the scene.

[00:04:40] Who is glorious, almost a bit like the child capture in this episode.

[00:04:45] And this was telling the two girls that she didn't really like their sort of play.

[00:04:49] Absolutely. Yeah, that was really funny, wasn't it?

[00:04:51] Yeah, I really liked that scene.

[00:04:53] Let's get into the top moments from the episode

[00:04:55] as we have been doing on the previous episodes.

[00:04:57] We are taking the titles for our points from

[00:05:00] from the episode titles that come up

[00:05:02] and then we'll talk about everything around that. Right.

[00:05:04] Yes. Yeah.

[00:05:05] So the first one that we have is the lighthouse leapers itself,

[00:05:08] the actual case for this week, which starts out with a grizzled sea dog.

[00:05:14] Yes, lighthouse keeper Dagfin.

[00:05:17] I think what I really liked about this was because it's actually

[00:05:20] the prelude to him arriving to request the services of the dead

[00:05:25] boy detectives is Jenny receiving rent, which Jenny wants Crystal

[00:05:30] to be more like Nico, who gives her a check at least.

[00:05:33] Whereas Crystal gives gives Jenny a jar of coins.

[00:05:38] Yes. And so the ones they got from last week's case.

[00:05:41] Yeah, I kind of really like this.

[00:05:44] But we also do find out a bit here that Jenny is getting

[00:05:49] secret romantic love letters from a secret admirer.

[00:05:53] And a little bit around that, you know, that it's it's typed

[00:05:59] and Jenny is a bit reluctant following through to try and find out

[00:06:02] who this actually is, because no one ever turns out

[00:06:06] who they're supposed to be, according to Jenny.

[00:06:08] And there's also just the general weirdness of Jenny sort of questioning.

[00:06:13] Well, shouldn't you be in school all this kind of stuff?

[00:06:16] And it turns out with Dagfin bursting into the butcher shop,

[00:06:20] of course, Jenny can't see her.

[00:06:22] So Nico and Crystal both sort of jump in surprise.

[00:06:28] Yes. Letting out noise and Jenny's like, what is going on with you?

[00:06:32] Exactly. I kind of really like that dynamic with Jenny.

[00:06:35] I mean, she is a great foil for everything else going on.

[00:06:39] You know, she can't see any of this stuff.

[00:06:41] So for her, she's just got really two weird borders.

[00:06:47] You know, Nico possibly less so because at least she gives the rent in a check.

[00:06:52] A little bit, I think just in general, from Jenny's point of view,

[00:06:55] a person like Nico being all into butterflies and flowers

[00:07:00] and being all happy and being really colourful in comparison to Jenny's.

[00:07:04] A bit more goth like dour outlook on life.

[00:07:08] You know, you mentioned that she gives Jenny a check,

[00:07:10] but she doesn't just give her a check.

[00:07:11] She gives her a check with loads of pictures drawn all over

[00:07:13] her saying thank you so much for taking care of me.

[00:07:16] And then she just gets passed over the jar of coins from Crystal,

[00:07:20] who tells her she can buy loads of wishes with it

[00:07:22] if that's what she wants to do, you know,

[00:07:24] which I just thought was really good.

[00:07:25] But the actual case itself that's brought by Dagfinn

[00:07:28] is that he's been haunting a lighthouse, the only lighthouse

[00:07:32] in 10 for the last number of years.

[00:07:35] And suddenly he's getting lots of interlopers.

[00:07:36] These these people are coming and killing themselves

[00:07:38] and then hanging around smiling all the time.

[00:07:40] It seems like he's a ghost that likes his own space.

[00:07:43] And there's suddenly loads of ghosts sort of just

[00:07:47] arriving and building up here because there's people showing up

[00:07:50] and throwing themselves off the top of the lighthouse.

[00:07:53] All the cliffs close by.

[00:07:56] And he's like, I need my own space here.

[00:07:59] It's starting to sort of get crowded out here in the lighthouse.

[00:08:02] Yeah. And it's my space.

[00:08:04] So he's wanting to get Charles Edwin to investigate these

[00:08:10] the these mortals killing themselves and effectively crowding him out

[00:08:15] and crapping his style and cramping his style.

[00:08:17] And in return, the payment that he can offer is saltwater taffy.

[00:08:23] Along with a cursed eight ball, which does seem to pique

[00:08:26] the interest of Edwin, who says that they don't have

[00:08:30] anything like that in their collection.

[00:08:32] Yeah. What does he say?

[00:08:33] That if it tells people the exact date and time that they'll die.

[00:08:36] Is that what he's saying?

[00:08:38] But it is an interesting one.

[00:08:39] You know, we had had the conversation last week with Crystal,

[00:08:41] the reason why they chose the case of the Devlin House

[00:08:44] was because it comes with payment and she needs to pay rent.

[00:08:47] She's a human.

[00:08:48] She's just trying to pay rent in in Jenny's butcher shop.

[00:08:52] But the guys don't need money. Right.

[00:08:55] So I guess this is a little bit of a window

[00:08:57] into the way they would have worked in the past.

[00:08:59] They kind of pick up magical objects, I guess, as part of our

[00:09:02] our cult objects to, I guess, put into Charles's bag

[00:09:07] at which they carry around with them that they could use in future.

[00:09:10] So I wonder how the magic eight ball will play in the future.

[00:09:13] Yeah. And interestingly, as you know, Charles Edwin and Crystal

[00:09:16] are joined by Nico on this investigation as they head out

[00:09:20] to the the lighthouse that is starting to get a number of

[00:09:27] new residents here that Dagfinn is totally against.

[00:09:32] We actually see a leaper here immediately,

[00:09:35] a lady in a dressing gown.

[00:09:37] And there's at least three that we see here.

[00:09:40] And actually, it's it's almost like a siren call.

[00:09:44] So there's a little bit of a red herring, dare I say it here.

[00:09:48] In that, you know, you immediately think of sirens on the rocks.

[00:09:51] You know, a very well-known story sort of luring sailors

[00:09:55] onto the rocks and to their death.

[00:09:57] So there's that kind of feeling to this

[00:10:00] and because they're hearing voices.

[00:10:02] So of the three, the the the lady that they see jumping off

[00:10:07] the lighthouse, she had heard her boyfriend, her ex-boyfriend.

[00:10:13] And the others had heard the voices of their former

[00:10:16] of their dead wife and their father that had passed away.

[00:10:19] But it was the best feeling, this kind of feeling of being drawn to it.

[00:10:24] So very siren-esque.

[00:10:26] Yeah, in a sense.

[00:10:27] It kind of kicks off in that way, this investigation.

[00:10:30] Yeah. Yeah. And we have Crystal also gets a voice in her head

[00:10:34] while she's doing the investigation with Charles.

[00:10:37] The team kind of split up and go in different directions.

[00:10:39] And Charles and her are exploring the lighthouse itself.

[00:10:41] And she gets a voice that she knows is her mother's voice

[00:10:45] and almost draws her to her death until Charles stops her effectively.

[00:10:48] So, yeah, he kind of just.

[00:10:50] Well, he doesn't really know that he's stopping her.

[00:10:53] He just snaps around to it by saying, are you coming?

[00:10:56] Yeah. As they make their way back down the lighthouse.

[00:10:59] Yeah, we have Charles and Crystal off investigating these ghosts.

[00:11:03] Nika goes to inquire with Asher, the gift shop owner.

[00:11:08] Yeah. And Edwin actually is secretly going off to meet the cat king.

[00:11:13] There's a cat that comes and gives him a quick scratch.

[00:11:17] But Edwin thinks that he might be able to give an answer

[00:11:20] to the question of how many cats are in the town.

[00:11:25] But 142 is the wrong answer.

[00:11:27] Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah, way off.

[00:11:29] I think you'd probably count 142 on that first night.

[00:11:32] Yeah, I think so.

[00:11:34] But the bracelet remains on him.

[00:11:35] But we have this great interaction just with the cat king.

[00:11:42] Sexy cat king. Sexy cat king, you know.

[00:11:45] Uptight people like you referring to Edwin says,

[00:11:48] you like a bit of rough, but I'm not the dasy type.

[00:11:51] Yeah, you know, and you like a bit of role play.

[00:11:54] You know, what is it that you are actually wanting or seeking here?

[00:11:58] What is it? And he, you know, he turns into Monty,

[00:12:01] but he also turns into Charles.

[00:12:03] Yeah, but we we see that the cat king is really intrigued by Edwin.

[00:12:08] You know, he says, I like your secret parts.

[00:12:10] Yes. And, you know, he likes the secrecy around Edwin

[00:12:14] and he's intrigued to find out more and more about it.

[00:12:18] Yeah, he is.

[00:12:19] And we find an extra pair that the cat king has is able to compel

[00:12:22] someone to tell the truth by a little spell he puts on the lips of Edwin.

[00:12:26] So we learn that the actual reason why Edwin is running the dead boy

[00:12:29] detectives isn't just to solve other people's cases for his own benefit,

[00:12:33] which is to avoid hell.

[00:12:35] He'll have some good things, I guess, in his ledger

[00:12:39] if he ever goes back to hell to prove that he was trying to save

[00:12:41] and help other people.

[00:12:42] He's looking for leniency that maybe either it would spur him hell altogether

[00:12:47] or the worst parts of hell.

[00:12:51] You might go somewhere in hell that's a little bit nicer, relatively speaking.

[00:12:55] Yeah, exactly.

[00:12:56] So I like this.

[00:12:57] And I like the secrecy around that.

[00:12:59] And again, it projects itself from Edwin, though,

[00:13:02] this tension that the others can kind of pick up on as well.

[00:13:06] So he doesn't want to admit it.

[00:13:08] So that's what I find interesting about this.

[00:13:10] He has to be compelled to tell it by this spell effectually that the cat king

[00:13:13] puts on him. He doesn't want to tell other people the reason why he's doing

[00:13:16] this is for personal gain, because he feels that that would be

[00:13:19] a really bad admission to everybody else.

[00:13:22] So I think that's quite interesting, because Charles and Edwin

[00:13:25] have talked about the fact they want to save other people

[00:13:27] that had been treated like them.

[00:13:28] That's the motivation to do it.

[00:13:30] People that were that had died and nobody had investigated their murders.

[00:13:35] Edwin and Charles Bush, that's not actually Edwin's reasoning behind it.

[00:13:39] His push behind it is to effectively, hopefully save himself from being in hell again.

[00:13:43] Yeah.

[00:13:44] But we I think moving on to our other point, dangerous women,

[00:13:48] because with Nico inquiring with Asher,

[00:13:51] she has a number of pictures in her gift shop at the lighthouse here.

[00:13:57] One of Lilith, which we know has a connection with

[00:14:02] Esther, the witch.

[00:14:05] But also there are the mermaids kind of sirens,

[00:14:08] but also a local legend known as the washerwoman as well, which

[00:14:14] all these different women that are sort of clustering

[00:14:19] these legends, these mystical, magical,

[00:14:22] supernatural legends in and around the town

[00:14:27] and this lighthouse as well.

[00:14:29] Almost like it's a hell mouth or something.

[00:14:31] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:14:33] A reference, you know?

[00:14:34] So I kind of, you know, a little bit more.

[00:14:37] Certainly the Lilith piece, because we know that's connected with Esther.

[00:14:41] I just wonder whether more will come out around that.

[00:14:44] But the more important one is around the washerwoman,

[00:14:48] not that she's dangerous, but they do come across the washerwoman as well.

[00:14:53] But it's after.

[00:14:55] Again, we have Crystal hearing the voice

[00:14:59] and heads towards the cliff,

[00:15:02] where the other three ghosts are kind of located looking out to sea.

[00:15:06] And she's pulled back by Nico and

[00:15:09] and Charles.

[00:15:11] But Edwin does see this light

[00:15:14] in the sea below at the base of the cliffs, which then disappears.

[00:15:20] And so they go down to sort of look a little closer at the shoreline

[00:15:25] where then you get.

[00:15:28] So again, you know, there's a lot of unsaid things here

[00:15:32] between Charles and Edwin.

[00:15:34] And Crystal is wanting Charles to sort of open up more about

[00:15:39] his father, and Charles really doesn't want to do that.

[00:15:42] You know, pushing pushing back on that.

[00:15:45] And we see Edwin sort of getting drawn into Charles

[00:15:51] after his conversations with with the cat king.

[00:15:55] And we have Nico being quite perceptive here,

[00:15:58] but is asking about Monty and, you know, Edwin's personal struggle here.

[00:16:05] You just see it on his face.

[00:16:07] You know, she's asking, well, do you want to kiss Monty?

[00:16:10] You know this.

[00:16:11] So I like how all this sort of buildup towards then

[00:16:18] Edwin effectively calls the washerwoman a bit of sea glass

[00:16:22] that Nico has been collecting.

[00:16:25] Yeah, that is an interesting part of it.

[00:16:27] But I think the actual questioning of Edwin and what he's kind of

[00:16:30] realising about the people around him is really fundamental to this.

[00:16:33] This episode, the case itself, obviously, is the mechanism of the episode.

[00:16:37] But him questioning whether firstly, he's never admitted to himself that he's gay.

[00:16:41] We heard in the last episode he was going, but he's a boy and I'm a boy.

[00:16:44] And Nico was trying to encourage him going, but that's OK.

[00:16:47] There's nothing wrong with that.

[00:16:48] You know, the cat king tempting him with Monty and tempting him with Charles.

[00:16:53] And then here the conversation between the two, there's the unsaid part of it.

[00:16:56] She asks whether he wants to kiss Monty and he kind of goes,

[00:16:59] I don't know, is his response to that, because I think he is

[00:17:03] questioning whether it's Monty or whether it's Charles that he's attracted to.

[00:17:06] Yeah, but you seem drawn to Charles in the distance as Nico is speaking.

[00:17:12] And that's the thing. I kind of like the unspoken

[00:17:18] feelings that Edwin is having.

[00:17:21] I think it comes really nicely across his face,

[00:17:26] you know, the questioning, the desire a bit.

[00:17:30] And I think certainly coming from the cat king that is in a sense, awakening

[00:17:33] this in Edwin. So it's really good.

[00:17:37] But we do have then the washerwoman come.

[00:17:41] This local lore and a local saying that we

[00:17:47] we see on one of the paintings in Asher's Gift Shop, which

[00:17:51] comes through as they look through a red piece of sea glass.

[00:17:56] And I thought the effect on this was really, really good.

[00:17:58] Almost almost like a kaleidoscope fractal type image.

[00:18:02] But this washerwoman can see the future.

[00:18:05] She's kind of washing blood out of garments.

[00:18:08] And she speaks of creatures in the sea that need to feed.

[00:18:13] And it's a sea monster, but it must play until it tires.

[00:18:19] All these little snippets of information

[00:18:24] kind of come out from the washerwoman around this

[00:18:27] this mystery that's happening at the lighthouse.

[00:18:29] Yeah, but what she does is she comes and helps people who are in need of help

[00:18:32] to kind of offset, I suppose, the death that has been caused over the

[00:18:36] over the hundreds of years that she's been that she's been in town.

[00:18:40] Yeah, that's the kind of that's the myth.

[00:18:42] So she deals with the group separately.

[00:18:45] She deals with the dead boy detectives and their

[00:18:48] their case of the lighthouse leapers and gives them a bit of help

[00:18:52] pointing them towards the ocean.

[00:18:54] But she separately deals with Crystal because she knows Crystal has a different need

[00:18:58] and basically gives her a riddle that Crystal finds really difficult to solve

[00:19:03] about her past and her parents.

[00:19:05] Yes, she says when the ground moves and the bird cries,

[00:19:09] stop looking without and start looking within.

[00:19:13] It's all very cryptic.

[00:19:14] Yes. And and Crystal, not very sure of it,

[00:19:17] but is immediately whisked out of there.

[00:19:19] And she in fact, this message from the the washerwoman to Crystal is

[00:19:25] she's there on her own.

[00:19:26] Yeah. The other three have already kind of whisked away

[00:19:31] after the first lot of information around the mystery.

[00:19:35] So she's kind of again left with more questions, really.

[00:19:40] And I think that's the really great thing about these three.

[00:19:44] And even with Nico, Nico has her own kind of questions around her own life

[00:19:50] and the people in it like a mum and dad.

[00:19:53] But Crystal, Charles, Edwin, you know, they have these different things

[00:19:58] that they find difficult to kind of understand or open up about.

[00:20:05] And I think Crystal is the most open to that.

[00:20:07] You know, she's quite open about wanting to find

[00:20:11] more about her mother.

[00:20:13] Yeah, exactly.

[00:20:14] Exactly. One more dangerous woman in this point,

[00:20:17] which is the night nurse herself as she as she arrives in town.

[00:20:21] Meshed earlier on, it's really like that as she arrives,

[00:20:24] she's the two girls playing playing swords and tells them that they're

[00:20:28] that they're absolutely terrible about it.

[00:20:29] There'll be blood pouring out of the mouth.

[00:20:31] You have to act properly.

[00:20:33] Absolutely disappointed in the two girls.

[00:20:35] And then she goes to find Jenny, who will hopefully lead her

[00:20:39] to the dead boy detectives.

[00:20:40] So I like how quickly she dispenses of the pleasantries

[00:20:44] and just basically takes over Jenny's mind to find out where they are.

[00:20:47] Thought that was quite an interesting, interesting use of preparers

[00:20:50] because she's on a mission now.

[00:20:51] She's been able to get this trip to Port Townsend

[00:20:53] to get the dead boy detectives who she's been looking for.

[00:20:56] And she's not willing to let anybody stand in her way.

[00:20:58] No, not at all.

[00:21:00] So she is another dangerous woman in this town.

[00:21:02] Yeah, I like this, you know, Jenny kind of wondering who's up there

[00:21:06] and then sort of almost being suffocated as the information

[00:21:11] is is being expedited from Jenny by the night nurse.

[00:21:14] So she's like, I'm breathe again.

[00:21:16] And then she's vanished.

[00:21:17] Yeah. And Jenny almost maybe a little bit of a memory wipe.

[00:21:21] Like, what am I doing up here?

[00:21:23] Exactly. No.

[00:21:25] So yes, absolutely.

[00:21:26] Another dangerous woman here.

[00:21:29] Yeah. Let's move on to our third point from the episode base

[00:21:33] because the guys go on down to Tragic Mix shop

[00:21:36] once again to help make the local magic shop

[00:21:39] to help them out, trying to find an implement that might help them

[00:21:43] dealing with this thing in the ocean.

[00:21:44] Trying to tire out the sea creature

[00:21:48] to stop the monster and make it easy.

[00:21:51] It goes while you're looking for Andrew and shows this picture of

[00:21:56] one of the like a huge angler fish

[00:21:59] with the luminescent sort of bulb at the front.

[00:22:03] Yeah, tracks the fish's prey,

[00:22:07] which is what Edwin had seen in in the sea.

[00:22:11] So it seems like because it's so close to the lighthouse

[00:22:13] and so close to the shore, it's now attracting humans in the same way

[00:22:16] that it would at the sea.

[00:22:17] And it's practically they're almost prey again of of this angler fish.

[00:22:22] Angie. Yeah, but I kind of like how make here sort of interject.

[00:22:25] Say, well, don't kill Angie, you know, just put her back to sleep

[00:22:30] because he is, you know, he knows about Angie

[00:22:35] and ultimately thinks that it's not her fault.

[00:22:38] In a sense, it's just the fish's time to feed.

[00:22:41] She needs she needs that sustenance like anyone, I guess.

[00:22:45] So she's feeding off

[00:22:47] humans and but really is, you know, says don't kill her.

[00:22:52] And he's also kind of very intrigued that they have found

[00:22:55] and seen the washerwoman as well,

[00:22:58] because he has also been looking for her for many years

[00:23:03] so that she can tell how he becomes a walrus again.

[00:23:07] I can go back to being a walrus.

[00:23:09] Exactly. For the second time now, he mentions his story

[00:23:11] and everybody ignores him because they're they're on the case.

[00:23:14] They don't hear their story right now.

[00:23:16] I think his story is going to be pretty interesting.

[00:23:18] He became a human from a walrus.

[00:23:20] I want to find out what that's all about.

[00:23:22] But again, that's his perspective.

[00:23:23] He's come from the ocean, so he doesn't want to see the death of Angie.

[00:23:27] But they do find a magical item that plays music

[00:23:30] that they're hoping will draw Angie away or tire her out

[00:23:32] and send her back into the into the pits of the ocean,

[00:23:36] I guess, away from the land. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:23:39] There's also just one other note that's in here in the section

[00:23:43] on around base where they're all hanging around in Jenny's butcher shop.

[00:23:47] Just like because Jenny looks at them all and just goes,

[00:23:50] this isn't the peach pit.

[00:23:52] Get out of here.

[00:23:53] Just in case you don't know, Jenny obviously is a bit older

[00:23:56] than the rest of the characters here.

[00:23:57] The peach pit was the was the hangout place in Beverly Hills.

[00:24:00] And I know to one, oh, so that would have been speaking to Jenny's youth.

[00:24:03] But all these kids who are teenagers right now are looking at her going,

[00:24:05] we have no idea what this woman's talking about. Absolutely.

[00:24:08] But she's trying to kick them out because the butcher shop

[00:24:09] is not a hangout for them.

[00:24:10] But they're looking for bait.

[00:24:12] And I like the little conversation from Nico saying, well, we need pork

[00:24:16] because, you know, humans are called long pig

[00:24:20] in terms of from cannibals.

[00:24:24] There was a eaten humans in the past,

[00:24:27] but we also have Monty arriving as well looking for.

[00:24:32] For Edwin and Jenny's just kind of like,

[00:24:35] and who's this new teenager?

[00:24:37] Yeah, you know, that's arrived.

[00:24:39] But ultimately they go looking for the meat scraps from the bin

[00:24:43] is Monty and Edwin chat.

[00:24:45] And effectively, Monty is asking Edwin on a date to go out for coffee

[00:24:49] more base. Yeah.

[00:24:50] Yeah. He's the base to try and guess Edwin

[00:24:53] on behalf of on behalf of the witch.

[00:24:55] So more bait.

[00:24:56] But he's like, well, I can't drink coffee.

[00:24:59] Well, maybe we can go for a walk.

[00:25:00] So a walking date at some point.

[00:25:03] Yeah, I think he says something to Edwin about saying that since he woke up,

[00:25:08] he's been feeling freer and freer meeting up with Edwin.

[00:25:11] So it feels like Monty might be on his own mission with Edwin.

[00:25:15] I think so. Yeah.

[00:25:16] I feel like he's going to actually falling for him.

[00:25:18] Maybe maybe I'm falling for the base to whether

[00:25:22] Esther's plan is fully formed.

[00:25:25] I mean, I guess he's going to be careful of Esther.

[00:25:27] And I guess she holds great power over him.

[00:25:30] So it does need to sort of tread a fine line here.

[00:25:35] I love the fact that we have the cats watching on again,

[00:25:38] just sort of coming back to the cats for no particular reason.

[00:25:40] But I like that, you know, and, you know, one of them saying,

[00:25:43] how were you ever captured by that kid?

[00:25:47] And he's like, well, the kid had a sardine.

[00:25:50] What was I supposed to do?

[00:25:51] And then, you know, you just had to go and tattle to the cat king about it.

[00:25:56] You know, almost like trying to suck up to the king of the cat in the town.

[00:26:02] You know, you're such a whore.

[00:26:03] So as far as the cats, I just I just love this.

[00:26:06] I mean, in a sense, there's almost no need for the cats to be there

[00:26:10] in in this episode, but I like that they come back to them

[00:26:14] because it's a good little piece, I think it is.

[00:26:17] It is. And I also feel like if this was a Neil Gaiman book

[00:26:19] and he's written loads of great novels, I think if this was a Neil Gaiman book,

[00:26:22] you would see this threaded throughout the story.

[00:26:25] This idea that the cat king has his cats all around the city

[00:26:28] and can spy on anybody, can follow everybody in the town

[00:26:33] because he's got these cats and we know the cats can see the dead

[00:26:36] and alive people all across the town.

[00:26:38] So it's just putting that in there again.

[00:26:41] The cat king is very powerful and has eyes everywhere

[00:26:43] watching everything.

[00:26:44] So I think that's a that's a nice little touch, because again,

[00:26:47] in that conversation with Edwin and the cat king earlier on,

[00:26:50] he was very much aware of what Edwin's been doing since the last time they met.

[00:26:54] So that's a good a good little touch to have it there.

[00:26:57] But I think onto our next moment, gone fishing as they head off

[00:27:02] to go fishing for Angie.

[00:27:04] Yeah. Effectively with this maritime music box

[00:27:07] that should hopefully put her to sleep.

[00:27:09] I mean, I love the fact that they have been trying to sort of

[00:27:12] attach pork scraps to it.

[00:27:14] Yes, just kind of.

[00:27:16] They're just falling off.

[00:27:17] So how it will work.

[00:27:18] But as they head back towards the lighthouse,

[00:27:23] there is the night nurse at the top of the cliffs looking out to sea.

[00:27:28] And she you know, she goes to Charles and Edwin.

[00:27:31] You two are errant and I've come to put you in your assigned

[00:27:35] place in the afterlife.

[00:27:37] Yes. Which is is really good.

[00:27:40] And Crystal tries to sort of

[00:27:45] stop this from happening because Charles is adamant he doesn't want to leave.

[00:27:49] You know, he's got his friend in Edwin and Edwin certainly doesn't want to go back

[00:27:54] to hell where he knows he will end up.

[00:27:58] So she tries to read the night nurse.

[00:28:01] But I love the fact she goes, you don't want to go there, love.

[00:28:07] It's too much for you.

[00:28:08] Yeah.

[00:28:09] Yeah, but it's kind of cool.

[00:28:11] I love when it leans into this side of things.

[00:28:13] It feels like at those kind of moments, it feels much more tied

[00:28:16] into the Sandman that we saw on Netflix.

[00:28:18] The Sandman dealt very well in the horror aspects of Neil Gaiman's type of world.

[00:28:23] And we have these type of moments when Crystal is reading,

[00:28:26] is trying to read the mind of the night nurse and we see

[00:28:28] the babies inside the skeleton.

[00:28:30] We see this absolutely horrible looking scene that instantly Crystal recalls from.

[00:28:36] She wasn't prepared for it.

[00:28:37] And the night nurse going, you will never be prepared to enter my mind, basically.

[00:28:41] So I thought that was really interesting.

[00:28:43] So and again, to have a bit of horror in there along with

[00:28:47] along with all the other elements just adds to the show.

[00:28:50] That's it.

[00:28:50] And I mean, Crystal effectively has taken out here and, you know,

[00:28:54] the night nurse focuses back on Charles and Edwin.

[00:28:57] And she's like, everyone has a place.

[00:28:59] And Charles is probably the most resistant to it.

[00:29:01] You know, he says, you know nothing about me.

[00:29:05] And then it takes the night nurse brings us on this journey of

[00:29:11] the bullying and the beating by his dad,

[00:29:15] the bullying of his and his classmates as well.

[00:29:20] Yes. In his past life.

[00:29:22] And, you know, you have here that.

[00:29:25] Charles feels that, you know, I still have a purpose here

[00:29:31] in a sense, he comes clean and says, I

[00:29:34] died too soon, you know, I don't want to be dead here after being shown

[00:29:39] all his past. Yeah.

[00:29:41] And he gets very angry with the night nurse.

[00:29:44] He really is the one that steps up to challenge

[00:29:48] her position that you're just going to be assigned to the afterlife.

[00:29:51] Absolutely. But, you know, again, it's the connection to Edwin's past.

[00:29:57] You know, we saw how he was murdered by the by the other bullies

[00:30:01] in his school who treated him like a sacrifice.

[00:30:04] We don't get all of Charles's story here.

[00:30:06] We get flashes of us.

[00:30:07] But I guess my reading on it is he tried to defend someone else

[00:30:12] that was being bullied by his friends is what the night nurse says.

[00:30:14] And they turned on him

[00:30:17] because he was trying to defend one of the other kids in school.

[00:30:20] I kind of feel anyway, I guess we'll see a bit more of it

[00:30:22] hopefully later on in the season.

[00:30:24] But I feel like that's the connection with Charles and Edwin.

[00:30:28] He's trying to protect Edwin all the time.

[00:30:31] Charles is the is the muscle.

[00:30:33] Edwin's the brains.

[00:30:34] It feels like that's something that Charles has continued on with.

[00:30:38] He tried to protect a weak someone that was weak from his friends

[00:30:42] who were bullying him, and they turned on him

[00:30:43] and he eventually died of hypothermia.

[00:30:45] But we also have the flash to him being beaten by his father

[00:30:50] and him trying to stop it, saying he'll do anything that his father wants.

[00:30:54] And a really brutal response from the night nurse

[00:30:56] who's in the scene with them at this time going,

[00:30:59] but you can't make it any better.

[00:31:00] You can't do what he wants you to do.

[00:31:02] You didn't in life and now you're dead.

[00:31:04] And that's the point. It's over.

[00:31:05] There's no more flashing back to this in your mind

[00:31:08] and trying to make your father happy anymore.

[00:31:11] You're dead and gone and there's nothing more you can do about it.

[00:31:13] It felt really brutal from the night nurse.

[00:31:15] Yeah, and the night nurse as well, you know, also says

[00:31:18] anything is better than this place.

[00:31:20] Why are you still holding on to the mortal realm?

[00:31:23] Exactly. When you see how it treated you.

[00:31:26] And again, trying to do a repost to Charles, who really says,

[00:31:31] you know, I still have a purpose.

[00:31:32] I want to be here. I don't want to be dead.

[00:31:34] But, you know, Charles gets so angry that effectively he is the one

[00:31:38] that starts using the music box, this metal music box

[00:31:43] to sort of beat the night nurse around the head.

[00:31:47] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:31:48] And then kicks her over the cliff into Angie.

[00:31:51] Absolutely. Solving two problems at once, I suppose.

[00:31:54] Absolutely. Yeah.

[00:31:55] You know, but he's kind of expressing himself here

[00:31:59] and so much and ultimately defends

[00:32:04] and Edwin here and manages to get the the night nurse

[00:32:09] gulped up by by Angie with the music box

[00:32:13] to help them tire out Angie.

[00:32:16] So hopefully we see that the ghosts leave the lighthouse

[00:32:20] and hopefully then that's the end of the the leapers from the lighthouse.

[00:32:25] Exactly, exactly.

[00:32:26] And that is the end because we are on to our final point.

[00:32:29] Case closed as everything wraps up at the end of the episode.

[00:32:33] And we have tragic Mick, who, as you mentioned earlier on, had said

[00:32:37] he was trying to find a way to get in contact with the the washerwoman.

[00:32:41] He's trying to pick up some of the glass from around

[00:32:45] so that he can try and meet her.

[00:32:47] So he's following the directions that they had.

[00:32:49] They use the red the red glass to find her.

[00:32:51] He's trying to find a similar type of red glass

[00:32:53] so he can get in contact with her.

[00:32:56] We have Nico and Edwin sitting on bed watching Scooby

[00:33:00] Doo, which I think is really cute because obviously that boy detectives here

[00:33:04] at them probably hasn't seen Scooby Doo before.

[00:33:06] He's a big fan of of those types of what were they called?

[00:33:11] Not the famous five, but those kind of investigation.

[00:33:14] Exactly. But boys own books.

[00:33:15] I think it was quite impressed with the investigative skills

[00:33:19] of the gang from Scooby Doo.

[00:33:21] You know, so I like that.

[00:33:22] And Edwin's there saying as well, you know, it was a top job today.

[00:33:25] I think a nice little connection there between him and Nico.

[00:33:29] Yes, she says as well, I also need to just sort of go through these letters

[00:33:33] finally from my mom. Yes.

[00:33:35] She's never read any of them before.

[00:33:36] She's about to read one.

[00:33:38] But while the two of them are watching Scooby Doo,

[00:33:41] the other kids are are.

[00:33:42] And well, they have a heart to heart, don't they?

[00:33:45] Really did Charles and Crystal? Yes.

[00:33:48] And, you know, he Charles is like,

[00:33:51] I've been so angry for such a long time and, you know,

[00:33:54] I need something that's real as he goes in for a kiss with Crystal.

[00:34:01] Yeah, he doesn't feel the kiss, but it doesn't matter

[00:34:06] as it goes to closing credits for the episode.

[00:34:09] It goes on to to be continued.

[00:34:10] But but yes, they have their kiss.

[00:34:14] Yeah. Well, then just before that as well, you know,

[00:34:16] you have Edwin and Charles having a brief moment where Edwin says,

[00:34:20] you know, given how.

[00:34:24] Charles expressed himself at the top of the cliff with the night nurse

[00:34:27] and the brutality, which he kind of dispatched to just says,

[00:34:31] you know, you can talk to me about anything as well.

[00:34:33] So there's maybe a sort of a momentum shift here as the

[00:34:38] this group of the dead boy detectives

[00:34:41] maybe can start to open up a bit more, which we see

[00:34:45] and between Edwin and Nico a bit, at least for Nico.

[00:34:49] And and also with Charles and Crystal.

[00:34:52] Absolutely, absolutely.

[00:34:54] What do you think of this episode, John, as we get to the end?

[00:34:56] I really enjoyed it.

[00:34:57] I would give this four lords are leaping out of five.

[00:35:02] And I just it was a nice little investigation.

[00:35:05] And I like that the night nurse came in here.

[00:35:07] I like we got more and, you know, starting to sort of unravel

[00:35:12] Charles's story and Edwin again, starting to confront his feelings.

[00:35:18] I think that was it for this.

[00:35:20] You know, Crystal's always wanted to find out more.

[00:35:23] But the two lads of the dead boy detectives

[00:35:26] are starting to actually confront some of their pent up emotions

[00:35:31] that they've had for a very long time.

[00:35:32] Absolutely, absolutely.

[00:35:34] It feels like I'm sorry.

[00:35:35] I have loads of friends.

[00:35:36] I've got loads of male friends that I've known since I was five years old.

[00:35:38] And sometimes you just don't talk about your feelings

[00:35:40] with certain ones of those friends.

[00:35:41] And that sort of feels like Edwin and Charles relationship has been

[00:35:44] like they've been together for about 20 years at this stage.

[00:35:48] Living in each other's pockets, running around, doing detective stuff.

[00:35:51] And not once have they ever really talked about

[00:35:53] about Charles's feelings and what happened to him or his or his dad

[00:35:58] and what he did to him, you know.

[00:35:59] It takes Crystal coming in and being the catalyst for those discussions.

[00:36:03] So and the night nurse coming in and being a catalyst as well.

[00:36:05] But yeah, there's some very good things about this episode.

[00:36:08] I think I think the case rattled along pretty quick in the background.

[00:36:11] But the actual story of Edwin discovering his feelings for maybe Charles,

[00:36:15] maybe Monte or just his general feelings of that maybe he's gay.

[00:36:19] That is a bigger part of this episode for me.

[00:36:21] Absolutely. And then learning Charles's history,

[00:36:24] learning how similar it is to Edwin's death in its own way

[00:36:28] and the rage that he's feeling against his father.

[00:36:30] I think that's those two really interesting parts of the episode.

[00:36:33] Definitely. Yeah. Great stuff.

[00:36:35] We're going to take a break and we will be back

[00:36:38] with episode five of The Dead Boy Detectives.

[00:36:41] She was so close to a meal with that juicy little

[00:36:44] Becky Aspen only to have it plucked away by those weasely little detectives.

[00:36:48] She just mommy's little slither bug.

[00:36:52] That little slither bug is the size of a bus.

[00:36:55] I could afford to miss a few meals.

[00:36:57] Darling, some people drink almond milk.

[00:36:59] Some people skip carbs and people feed their gigantic

[00:37:03] snake children to stay young and beautiful.

[00:37:04] It's honestly NBD.

[00:37:06] Oh, I mean, you stood bleeding on the shores of that.

[00:37:09] Lilith would come out of the ocean and grant you more life.

[00:37:12] She never said you had to stay young and beautiful.

[00:37:15] Yeah, I mentioned that blood goddess's name.

[00:37:19] She tricked me, Monty.

[00:37:22] What good is living forever if you're just going to wither away?

[00:37:26] So I will feed my snake a generation

[00:37:30] of little girls to maintain my beauty.

[00:37:34] And those dead boys continue to get in my way.

[00:37:38] No one messes with Esther Finch.

[00:37:40] There's something about that.

[00:37:41] It's unclear to you, Monty.

[00:37:53] Right, let's get on to our second episode of the podcast,

[00:37:56] onto episode five, The Case of the Two Dead Dragons.

[00:38:00] Indeed, Derek, what are some of the episode details here?

[00:38:03] Well, this episode was written by Kelly Breslin and Jeremy Kaufman.

[00:38:06] Kelly was a writer on the TV show You,

[00:38:08] and this is Jeremy's first writing credits.

[00:38:10] Good stuff. Yeah.

[00:38:11] He's been an active writer for a long time.

[00:38:13] I think we've talked about this many times before,

[00:38:15] that lots of active writers don't get stuff produced.

[00:38:18] But he had loads of scripts out there.

[00:38:20] But this is the one that he gets his first writing credit on IMDB.

[00:38:23] So not a huge amount of information about him at the moment.

[00:38:26] Yeah. But the episode was directed by Amanda Tapping.

[00:38:29] She played Naomi in ten episodes of Supernatural and directed four episodes

[00:38:33] of the show.

[00:38:34] She also directed episodes of The Flash, Batwoman

[00:38:36] and Chilling Adventures of Sabrina as well.

[00:38:38] Good stuff. Yeah.

[00:38:39] So definitely all the directors seem to be being tapped

[00:38:43] from the Greg Berlanti shows.

[00:38:45] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:38:47] But I suppose with The Chilling Adventures of Sabrina,

[00:38:49] there's definitely some DNA in between those shows.

[00:38:52] Yeah, exactly.

[00:38:53] Yeah, for sure.

[00:38:55] Good stuff. John, do you want to tell us what they gave us

[00:38:57] with the Netflix synopsis for this episode? Sure.

[00:39:00] While Crystal, Edwin and Charles investigate

[00:39:03] the tragic murders of two popular athletes,

[00:39:06] Nico sets Jenny up on a date at the butcher shop.

[00:39:10] Yes, she does. She certainly does.

[00:39:13] Oh, I really, really enjoy this episode for sort of everything

[00:39:18] around Jenny and her secret admirer as well.

[00:39:21] Just I just thought it played really, really well.

[00:39:25] And I'm so glad that Jenny like has this extra bit of exposure

[00:39:29] within the show here, something around her life as well.

[00:39:34] Even though, again, it doesn't necessarily go as planned.

[00:39:37] But yeah, I enjoyed this this episode for that.

[00:39:41] I think, I mean, ultimately, the investigation again

[00:39:45] takes place here and it feels like it's almost an aside

[00:39:52] to again them talking about their.

[00:39:58] You know what? What's bothering them?

[00:40:00] I think that's still very much at the forefront here in this episode.

[00:40:04] Absolutely. We're learning more and more about these characters.

[00:40:06] We'll go into our top moments from the episode.

[00:40:08] But the one thing that struck me as I saw the

[00:40:11] the plates come up with each of the top moments from the episode is that

[00:40:14] you're right, the investigation seems to take a real backseat here.

[00:40:17] Because our first point to start it off with is on Jenny's secret admirer.

[00:40:22] And as Nico goes out and writes a letter to her mother,

[00:40:25] following on from last episode where she read the letter,

[00:40:28] she writes a letter to her mother, puts it into the postbox

[00:40:31] and catches sight of one of those envelopes

[00:40:33] in the hands of Maxine from the library,

[00:40:37] who seems to be the secret admirer of Jenny.

[00:40:39] Absolutely. Yeah.

[00:40:41] And then Nico takes it into her own hands to set up a date for Jenny.

[00:40:46] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:40:49] I like also here in this point, you know, Nico effectively sort of

[00:40:53] sort of excuses herself from the main investigation around the two dead dragons.

[00:40:58] These two athletes of Brad and Hunter that come to

[00:41:04] ask for the help of the dead boy detectives.

[00:41:07] Because she has a case of her own.

[00:41:10] I love that, again, just as an aside, we have the dandelion sprite

[00:41:15] being lovingly rude to Nico as usual.

[00:41:19] Nico seems to really enjoy having them around, whereas you can sense

[00:41:23] that the Edwin and Charles think she should just be getting rid of them.

[00:41:29] She tells the sprites themselves they need to be quiet

[00:41:31] because they're actively trying to kill her.

[00:41:32] All the rest of the guys are actively trying to kill her.

[00:41:35] But they are a fun little presence.

[00:41:38] They are, absolutely.

[00:41:39] I love just even when they're having that conversation outside

[00:41:41] about the two jocks that are dead and there was a sad parade in town

[00:41:45] after they died, you hear just the voices of the two of them going,

[00:41:48] not as sad as your stupid face.

[00:41:50] So which, you know, again, it's just these little touches

[00:41:54] of these sprites that are there all the time listening in

[00:41:57] to everything that's going on.

[00:41:58] And they're very mean-spirited all the time.

[00:42:01] So I really like that.

[00:42:02] And this leads us on to our next moment here,

[00:42:05] which is a nice little play on words in Meet Cutie.

[00:42:09] Meet has in Butcher Shop.

[00:42:11] Indeed, as Nico pimps out Jenny's shop all in pink with rose petals,

[00:42:18] with fairy lights, you name it,

[00:42:22] because she's persuaded Jenny to sort of just take the jump

[00:42:26] and meet her secret admirer.

[00:42:29] She's worked it with Maxine as well

[00:42:31] to come round to the butcher shop.

[00:42:32] So I love the fact that she's setting up a date in the shop

[00:42:38] with all the meat still there and turning it with hearts

[00:42:42] and fairy lights and rose petals and candles.

[00:42:45] Yeah, you name it.

[00:42:46] I felt like Jenny would have run out there in a second

[00:42:48] if it hadn't been her own butcher shop.

[00:42:50] Yeah, well, exactly.

[00:42:51] That's what it felt like.

[00:42:52] And, you know, Nico making excuses,

[00:42:54] getting going, oh, just just you have to go for it.

[00:42:56] You have to go full on.

[00:42:58] That's the way you do it in the first stage.

[00:43:00] And as they sit and discuss and have their have their dinner in the butcher shop,

[00:43:04] you kind of hear that Maxine's quite obsessed with her.

[00:43:11] Interestingly, from the letters themselves,

[00:43:12] if you read some of the letters,

[00:43:14] there are the words that Maxine is using about Jenny

[00:43:17] are that she's her goddess,

[00:43:18] that she's watched her from afar all the time.

[00:43:20] And Jenny's been enjoying the letters because letters can't disappoint you.

[00:43:24] So she doesn't really want to meet Maxine,

[00:43:26] but is being pushed into it by Nico.

[00:43:28] Absolutely.

[00:43:28] And I mean, in some ways, it seems to start off quite well in that,

[00:43:32] you know, Maxine also likes wine and murder documentaries as well as as does Jenny.

[00:43:40] I like that, you know,

[00:43:42] but having this conversation and Maxine,

[00:43:46] you know, this is the first hint of it,

[00:43:47] but Maxine can manages to cover it up because she Maxine talks about

[00:43:54] seeing Jenny at the fish market.

[00:43:56] Jenny's sort of giving out about the guys down at the fish market.

[00:44:01] And she was like, well, how are you there?

[00:44:03] You know, I go there really early in the day and she's just like, well,

[00:44:08] you know, I'm out for my early morning run.

[00:44:10] I saw you.

[00:44:11] And she's like, well, can you explain the concept of running to me?

[00:44:14] I really like that.

[00:44:15] And speak slowly.

[00:44:16] Yeah, speak slowly.

[00:44:17] So, you know, there's hints here in these initial conversations

[00:44:20] that Maxine is effectively kind of, yes, is stalking her

[00:44:25] rather than being a secret admirer.

[00:44:28] And this kind of builds as well as this this date goes on.

[00:44:33] But Maxine and Jenny do kiss.

[00:44:35] And but it then goes crazy.

[00:44:39] And Maxine knows about Jenny's oversized pajamas effectively

[00:44:45] that she wears to Ben, she's like, oh, it's just if I happen

[00:44:48] to find myself in the alley outside the shop and I look or I can see you

[00:44:54] getting ready for bed, I can sometimes see what you're actually watching.

[00:44:58] So I pull it up on, you know, and watch it along with you.

[00:45:04] You know, I have but she goes, I have to fill in the blanks

[00:45:07] like how your pillow smells.

[00:45:09] And so it's just like it just really goes badly

[00:45:14] from there on out, really.

[00:45:17] Yeah, Jenny instantly asks her to leave because she feels uncomfortable

[00:45:21] with how this conversation is going.

[00:45:23] It's getting really creepy.

[00:45:25] And I'm glad they did this, to be honest.

[00:45:27] Having these kind of stories is really important.

[00:45:30] We're we're two gay guys watching the show.

[00:45:32] These are LGBTQ stories.

[00:45:33] You know, it's always good to have that representation,

[00:45:35] but not everything is going to be a fairy tale story.

[00:45:41] And I'm glad this isn't in its own way.

[00:45:43] I'm sorry for Jenny as the character,

[00:45:45] because it feels like even when she has that first kiss with Jenny,

[00:45:48] she goes, it's been a very long time since I did this.

[00:45:50] She kind of keeps herself to herself.

[00:45:51] I think she talked about it with Nico.

[00:45:53] She's saying, I know every bachelor out of this in this small town

[00:45:56] and all of them are just women with cats, not my type of people.

[00:45:59] Yeah, exactly.

[00:46:00] So so it's really sad that it went the way it went.

[00:46:03] But wow, does it go off the rails?

[00:46:06] Well, yeah, she loses the plot considerably.

[00:46:09] But she also broken wineglasses and all sorts.

[00:46:13] But she goes, Maxine, she goes, I've got to clean things up again.

[00:46:16] And you're like, OK, what does that mean?

[00:46:18] But I mean, ends up with Jenny's meat cleaver in her hand.

[00:46:23] Jenny's hiding out in the back at the back of the shop

[00:46:27] with Maxine sort of.

[00:46:29] Effectively trying to find her,

[00:46:32] but ultimately it ends with her slipping on, I guess, a bit of blood

[00:46:37] or I know juice of some kind that's on the tile floor.

[00:46:44] I was like, take it back because she gets impaled on the knife shop

[00:46:48] and that's clamped into the chopping block.

[00:46:53] Yeah, and at the back of the butchers.

[00:46:55] And yeah, so she's dead.

[00:46:57] I mean, this doesn't end well at all.

[00:47:01] You have Crystal coming in going, Oh, my God, Nico

[00:47:06] wondering why it's gone so badly.

[00:47:09] And the police are called, you know, as Maxine has been impaled

[00:47:15] on the knife shop.

[00:47:16] Yeah, because it just was so creepy as the conversation was going on.

[00:47:20] As Maxine was saying to her, you know, I need to clear up.

[00:47:23] I need to clean everything up and get it all back to normal.

[00:47:25] It would have been great if you just hadn't talked.

[00:47:27] You know, it's like it's so creepy.

[00:47:29] It's like it is like a serial killer out of another Netflix show

[00:47:33] because they have hundreds of serial killer shows.

[00:47:36] And then to see her impaled at the end after what started out

[00:47:39] as being this pink and fluffy first date in the butcher shop.

[00:47:43] Yeah. And in the way it did.

[00:47:45] It's why the show is interesting to watch, right?

[00:47:47] So it's it makes it makes it completely different

[00:47:50] to what you expect going on.

[00:47:52] I like this this little storyline in this episode.

[00:47:55] Yeah. And you know, it was sufficiently dark enough.

[00:47:59] Yeah. And you know,

[00:48:02] it kind of felt right that Maxine would be unhinged.

[00:48:06] Really? Yeah.

[00:48:07] And you kind of got this.

[00:48:10] And yeah, Jenny.

[00:48:13] Really should have gone with her initial thoughts

[00:48:16] about just not bothering to find a secret admirer and Nico really,

[00:48:20] you know, is sorry that this has happened.

[00:48:23] Yes. And probably should have stayed out of it.

[00:48:25] But I think it's the unsaid part.

[00:48:28] And I kind of wish they'd said it a little bit.

[00:48:30] But the onset part of this is because a teenage girl who has been,

[00:48:34] you know, effectively stuck inside her own room now with no friends.

[00:48:37] She's left school.

[00:48:38] She doesn't have much social interaction,

[00:48:41] but she's setting up an older woman like Jenny with somebody else

[00:48:43] without any experience of it herself.

[00:48:45] So just she just expects the world to be all hearts, hearts and flowers,

[00:48:49] expects everything to work out perfectly, romantically.

[00:48:51] And that's just not the way of the world.

[00:48:53] Also isn't hopefully the way of the world that someone will take out

[00:48:56] a meat cleaver on you if they don't like what you're saying to them.

[00:48:58] And you're saying you feel uncomfortable and send them out,

[00:49:01] send them home. So yes, hopefully it doesn't work out that way

[00:49:04] for everybody either.

[00:49:05] But that's kind of mainly Jenny's story

[00:49:07] and what happens with her in the episode, those first two points.

[00:49:10] Let's get on to our next one.

[00:49:11] The next title that comes up on screen is what Marin did.

[00:49:14] But let's talk about the whole case that goes on here with the two dead dragons.

[00:49:18] Yes, the two jocks, Brad and Hunter,

[00:49:21] who basically come to the dead boy detectives going,

[00:49:24] we're pretty sure we were murdered.

[00:49:26] They said it was alcohol poisoning, ultimately.

[00:49:29] But look at our eyes,

[00:49:33] there's blood coming out of the eyes.

[00:49:35] And so they take the case again, they can get paid here.

[00:49:39] And the two dragons here are Brad and Hunter,

[00:49:42] because they were on the baseball team of the school,

[00:49:46] the Northport Townsend Dragons.

[00:49:49] And the only thing they have really to go on

[00:49:52] is that the last thing they remember is a tree with,

[00:49:56] you know, twisted tree that seemed to have eyes.

[00:50:00] And so ultimately, Crystal

[00:50:04] and the two lads in disguise go to the school to get info

[00:50:09] pretending that they're journalists doing a follow up piece on the death.

[00:50:14] Yeah, they're not very good at the pretended to be journalists.

[00:50:16] No, but weirdly, nothing really bad

[00:50:20] is really said about them on all the people that they interview and talk to.

[00:50:26] But then we get a really nice moment with the school's mascot

[00:50:31] who awkwardly is saying, well, you know, quick, you know, get over here.

[00:50:37] You need to go and chat to Twitchy Richy as well,

[00:50:41] which there's a nice moment here as they go to speak with Twitchy Richy.

[00:50:46] So he kind of explains how, you know, their their mobile phones

[00:50:50] were never found and that actually they're pretty bad

[00:50:54] and terrible to a number of girls, speaking of a girl called Shelby.

[00:51:00] Who was Brad's girlfriend and was all very suspicious.

[00:51:03] But he obviously doesn't Twitchy Richy doesn't like them.

[00:51:07] And, you know, to get that information,

[00:51:09] I like how they do the whole ghost thing because they've removed their disguise.

[00:51:14] So Twitchy Richy can't see them now.

[00:51:16] And you have the papers being flung up,

[00:51:18] the scissors walking across the counter

[00:51:21] and then being pushed around by Charles to get this information

[00:51:25] from Twitchy Richy.

[00:51:28] Well, yeah, again, it all kind of kicks off from

[00:51:32] Crystal trying to use her powers to read his mind and sees it's just porn.

[00:51:36] That's all that's in there in this teenage boy.

[00:51:38] But he's also an a-hole himself.

[00:51:40] That's the thing.

[00:51:41] Twitchy Richy is someone that doesn't like the two jocks.

[00:51:44] But, you know, the comments that he makes are clearly quite homophobic.

[00:51:48] And that doesn't go well, go down well with Crystal or with the two guys.

[00:51:51] And he tries to threaten Crystal himself.

[00:51:53] So he's not a guy beyond reproach by any means here.

[00:51:56] So the minute he tries to turn on Crystal,

[00:52:00] I kind of love how it shows you what's happening where he tries to intimidate

[00:52:05] her by lighting his Zippo lighter in front of her face.

[00:52:07] And the lighter keeps going out and then it cuts to it's actually Edwin's

[00:52:10] hands putting out the lighter with his fingers as they

[00:52:14] they start to taunt him or haunt him, I suppose.

[00:52:16] Yeah, I really enjoyed that.

[00:52:18] I thought that was really good.

[00:52:18] But, you know, it's a nice setup there that he's not on the level,

[00:52:22] but he's giving them information that nobody else in the school is

[00:52:26] Crystal commenting that, you know, there's no way that these two guys

[00:52:29] didn't have somebody that didn't like them.

[00:52:31] Everybody's saying just nice things about them.

[00:52:33] And they seem to be saying they're great guys.

[00:52:35] And we learn as the episode goes on that Charles really wants these two guys

[00:52:39] to be good guys, partly from what's happened in the last episode

[00:52:44] where he got really angry and his anger spilled over into knocking

[00:52:47] the night nurse off the cliff.

[00:52:48] And that pushed Crystal away a bit.

[00:52:50] And they have that conversation between them about everybody

[00:52:53] walking on eggshells now after the happened with Charles,

[00:52:55] when they saw his real anger come out and he's saying in his own mind,

[00:52:59] he's talking to them, saying he wants the two guys to be.

[00:53:02] Yeah. You know, the nice kind of people because he feels

[00:53:05] and he's worried that that could be him as anger would overtake him.

[00:53:08] And as the investigation goes on, you know, he's still trying

[00:53:12] to defend Brad and Hunter here.

[00:53:14] So they summoned Shelby from the grave or Edwin does.

[00:53:19] And we find out that she effectively was

[00:53:22] what was teased by Brad and Hunter, they dosed her with a drug.

[00:53:27] She was a good runner and that kind of caused the end of her

[00:53:31] and her running career at school.

[00:53:34] She was doing really well.

[00:53:36] Yeah. And you know, he wants them to be good guys.

[00:53:39] And yeah, but they said that after they caused the end of her career,

[00:53:44] they she was dumped and told she was no longer interesting.

[00:53:47] So not only did she lose her career, she lost her boyfriend,

[00:53:50] lost all of her friends and the respect of everybody in the school that she had.

[00:53:53] And she took her own life.

[00:53:54] Yeah. And and crystals, they're going, OK, so, you know,

[00:53:57] they're not as good as we thought.

[00:53:59] I say Charles really trying to defend them because,

[00:54:04] you know, he's worried that he's a bad guy, you know?

[00:54:07] Yeah. As well.

[00:54:08] And he's projecting himself onto these two really.

[00:54:13] Yeah, he is trying to defend them.

[00:54:14] And I suppose this is the the challenge of being believed

[00:54:18] when something bad has happened to you, like what's happened to

[00:54:21] to Shelby, the runner here.

[00:54:23] She's obviously tried to tell the story to other people,

[00:54:26] but everybody believes the jocks are can't do anything wrong.

[00:54:29] Right. You know, and Charles is kind of saying,

[00:54:32] well, it's just one person saying that it was their fault.

[00:54:36] Can't possibly be these two good guys.

[00:54:38] They know that everybody loved in the school.

[00:54:39] You know, we've got hundreds of people saying that they're

[00:54:41] stand up guys and just one person saying that they're wrong.

[00:54:44] And that really gets Crystal's back up.

[00:54:46] She gets really irritated with this idea that he's not believing

[00:54:50] in what Shelby what Shelby saying.

[00:54:52] Shelby killed herself after what they'd done to her.

[00:54:55] You know, even if it is only one person that they've done that to,

[00:54:59] she should be believed clearly.

[00:55:00] She's had that bad experience.

[00:55:02] There is a great moment when the two of them

[00:55:05] interrupt the conversation that Edwin's having with with Shelby

[00:55:08] after after she's died where she just turns around like something

[00:55:12] out of Ghostbusters and screams at the two other ghosts that have.

[00:55:15] You know, draws out a real vicious response means she apologizes afterwards.

[00:55:20] But yeah, I know it was really good.

[00:55:22] And then they get another call here from Marin, who was Hunter's girlfriend.

[00:55:29] Yeah, they do. They do.

[00:55:30] Yeah. And one of the little thing I wanted to point out,

[00:55:33] I guess, in the kind of bigger scheme of things in Sandman,

[00:55:37] we talked about it before that what happens after death

[00:55:39] is a personal experience for everybody in the universe of Sandman.

[00:55:42] So people that go to hell, go to hell because they believe in hell

[00:55:45] and believe actually that's where they're supposed to be going.

[00:55:48] Yeah. For the most part in Sandman, some people are punished

[00:55:51] and obviously put in hell.

[00:55:53] Some people go to heaven because they believe in heaven.

[00:55:54] Some people get reincarnated because that's what they believe.

[00:55:57] And here with Shelby, she killed herself.

[00:56:00] And what they explain is that often people who've died by suicide

[00:56:05] walk the earth for the rest of their lives because they haven't

[00:56:08] finished their lives out.

[00:56:09] They haven't completed the lives they should have had.

[00:56:12] So we hear from Shelby, she absolutely regrets taking her own life

[00:56:15] because she now can't experience anything more.

[00:56:18] And she's punishing herself by walking the earth,

[00:56:20] which I thought was an interesting nod to that mythology again

[00:56:23] of the Sandman about people's people do tend to punish themselves

[00:56:27] more than anybody else would punish them.

[00:56:29] Definitely. Yeah.

[00:56:30] But we end up going to Marin's house after she's called.

[00:56:35] Yeah. And where she basically says that she lied and we get the sense here

[00:56:39] of another person speaking badly of Brad and Hunter.

[00:56:44] And she says that she thinks it was twitchy Richie who actually killed them

[00:56:48] because again, the you know, Brad and Hunter got him hooked on Adderall

[00:56:54] and then selling him Molly.

[00:56:56] And nice little joke.

[00:56:58] We need to investigate Molly next for management.

[00:57:00] He doesn't understand the slang term.

[00:57:03] And you know, but when he realizes it's the drug side of it,

[00:57:07] it's like, oh, that connects with Shelby.

[00:57:10] But we see Marin acting quite nervous and strange as she invites Crystal in

[00:57:17] to go through it further, offering her a gin, which looks kind of strange.

[00:57:21] But Edwin and Charles go to investigate the house

[00:57:27] to see if there's any more information that they can get.

[00:57:30] Charles notices there's no actual pictures of Hunter,

[00:57:33] and despite being her boyfriend,

[00:57:36] and then they find a little compartment behind one of the sideboards

[00:57:42] in her room where they find the two phones. Exactly.

[00:57:46] And they see the tree outside with the what looks like Eisenham.

[00:57:49] Yeah, that was really cool.

[00:57:51] I like the kind of look at that.

[00:57:52] It was very cool.

[00:57:53] Don't know whether there was CGI involved in that.

[00:57:55] I'm sure there was, but it looked really cool.

[00:57:58] Yeah, it did.

[00:58:00] So we find out what actually happened was when we get the story from Marin,

[00:58:05] was that she'd sent some photographs of herself to her boyfriend

[00:58:10] at the time Hunter, who shared it with Brad and then was saying

[00:58:14] to share it that he's going to share it with the rest of the team

[00:58:16] and just as that absolutely disgusting phrase of, well, you sent them to me.

[00:58:18] They're mine now, so I got to do with them what I want to.

[00:58:21] If you didn't want them shared, you shouldn't have sent them to me.

[00:58:24] And she actually just wanted to knock them out

[00:58:25] so she could take their phones, ends up poisoning their drinks.

[00:58:29] Yes. And instead and brings in

[00:58:33] twitchy rich to dispose of the body because she knew he hated them.

[00:58:37] Yeah. And it's interesting that she tried to blame him,

[00:58:40] though, as he was the accomplice, like he'd throw it off on somebody else,

[00:58:43] I guess. But you would think so.

[00:58:44] But she's not a criminal mastermind.

[00:58:45] You know, the fact that she the two guys died

[00:58:49] rather than her knocking them out.

[00:58:51] That was an accident.

[00:58:52] But she does go down the path of trying to do the same thing to Crystal

[00:58:55] and knowing what happened to the two guys, she tries to kill Crystal

[00:58:58] and realizes her her error here, how far she was willing to go

[00:59:03] when they when they stop her and then turns herself into the police.

[00:59:06] So, yeah. Yeah.

[00:59:08] At least take responsibility.

[00:59:09] Interesting thing that comes from this is that, you know,

[00:59:13] Crystal suddenly goes, it's strange, the things that actually

[00:59:17] we have in common in terms of her Charles and Edwin

[00:59:21] is that our lives have been changed by shitty boys that went too far.

[00:59:26] And it is what Brad and Hunter did with with Marin,

[00:59:30] but also what Marin did to them.

[00:59:32] Yeah. What's happened here

[00:59:35] with the boys from the boarding school with Edwin, the boys

[00:59:39] at the same school as Charles and also then with Dave,

[00:59:43] the demon with with Crystal.

[00:59:46] And we have here, you know, a lot of that connection

[00:59:49] with Dave, the demon in this episode as well.

[00:59:53] But the case is closed.

[00:59:55] Yeah, as usual, our next our next point for the episode case closed.

[00:59:59] And the case is closed.

[01:00:00] Everything's solved.

[01:00:01] We know who the murderer is.

[01:00:02] And now that means that Hunter and Brad

[01:00:07] can now go on to their next their next phase, I guess, the next place.

[01:00:11] And the two of them kind of looking at Edwin and Charles are saying,

[01:00:14] you know, we are better than everybody else.

[01:00:16] We should have been going on to college.

[01:00:18] Everybody here worships us.

[01:00:19] We are better than everybody else.

[01:00:21] And instantly there, I think Charles

[01:00:24] realizes how bad they really are, how bad these two guys are.

[01:00:28] What what they've done when you learn the story of what they've done to Marin.

[01:00:33] He realized they are the bullies, the classic bullies.

[01:00:37] Yeah. But more so it's the fact that they believe they are better

[01:00:40] than everybody else, which gives them the right to do the things

[01:00:42] that they were doing, you know, and they get their true comeuppance.

[01:00:46] You know, again, we don't get to see death in this episode,

[01:00:49] but death comes to take them in the form of a demon coming from hell

[01:00:54] and dragging them to hell, the place they deserve to go for the things

[01:00:56] they've done to Marin and to Shelby.

[01:00:59] Yeah, absolutely.

[01:01:00] Yeah. And we have, you know, Charles saying that he wanted them to be good

[01:01:04] guys, but because he he kind of was projecting himself onto them in a sense.

[01:01:11] He was acting, which I thought was really good, you know, and,

[01:01:15] you know, Edwin kind of steps in here and says, you know,

[01:01:18] you're not a bad person.

[01:01:20] You're not a bad guy like they are.

[01:01:22] Bad guys normally don't ask themselves or question whether they're bad guys.

[01:01:28] I've been in hell for 70 years.

[01:01:30] I know about bad guys.

[01:01:32] And, you know, you are one of the good guys here.

[01:01:35] You know, you're the best person I know.

[01:01:37] Yeah. And then they hug.

[01:01:38] And there's a little moment where Edwin is definitely taken aback by the hug.

[01:01:43] Yeah, absolutely.

[01:01:44] From Charles Bush.

[01:01:45] But reciprocates.

[01:01:47] Linking into the previous episodes, really, and those kind of thoughts and

[01:01:52] and the beginnings of those thoughts that the cat king has released.

[01:01:56] And Nico had kind of furthers, you know?

[01:01:58] Exactly. Exactly.

[01:02:00] Let's close out with with Girls Nice.

[01:02:02] The last moment of the episode we have Nico, Jenny and Crystal

[01:02:05] sitting outside on the curb.

[01:02:07] Nico really apologetic for what's happened with Crystal.

[01:02:11] They they go and talk to the cops about

[01:02:13] about kind of filling in the info about what happened with

[01:02:16] the death of Jenny's secret admirer inside.

[01:02:20] And David again grabs Crystal.

[01:02:23] I mean, this keeps showing up in our thoughts.

[01:02:25] Yeah, we saw it right at the start of the episode.

[01:02:27] He appeared in her thoughts, while she appeared in her nightmares.

[01:02:31] And now he's jumped into her mind once again at this at this point.

[01:02:34] It's like as if when she's thinking about something else in, he jumps,

[01:02:38] you know, and trying to try to mess up who she is.

[01:02:42] But she tries to push him away after everything she's seen

[01:02:46] in the investigation of these two, these two jocks.

[01:02:49] She tries to push him away, saying, I'm not going to have my whole life

[01:02:52] screwed up just because of a boy, just what happened to Shelby

[01:02:55] and what happened to Marin.

[01:02:56] And he's pushing back to her going, I'm not a boy here.

[01:02:59] I'm a demon.

[01:02:59] And I guess exactly what I want whenever I want it, basically.

[01:03:03] And she wakes with Charles at the curb again after this

[01:03:07] shouting, I guess, from David.

[01:03:08] And she has no idea how she's going to stop him,

[01:03:10] how she's going to block him and keep him out of out of her mind.

[01:03:14] It's an interesting kind of flip back to the start of the episode

[01:03:17] where her seeing David in her dreams

[01:03:20] is connecting with the violence or the anger that she saw in Charles.

[01:03:24] And again, that's why she's pushing him away.

[01:03:26] We heard her at the start going,

[01:03:28] she has to work through all of the all of these issues with David.

[01:03:31] She has to work through everything that's going on with her family

[01:03:34] so she can she wants to go back to being friends with Charles

[01:03:36] after that kiss they had last episode, but partially.

[01:03:39] And that's not what she that's the thing.

[01:03:41] She hasn't told Charles is that in her mind, she started to connect,

[01:03:44] you know, the abusive boyfriend that he had that she has in

[01:03:47] that she had and David, the demon,

[01:03:49] starting to connect that a little bit with with Charles.

[01:03:51] You know, could she be wrong about him because she's seen the violence of him?

[01:03:54] Yeah. Yeah.

[01:03:56] We also have a moment here between Edwin and Monty

[01:03:59] and Monty's kind of been pushy and has taken him on an evening walk.

[01:04:04] Yes. And and have Edwin kind of opening up here,

[01:04:08] you know, thinking to well, at least to some extent,

[01:04:11] you know, whilst he thinks they should stop seeing each other,

[01:04:15] is he kind of says, you know, ultimately, I'm afraid of my own feelings.

[01:04:19] It's difficult to deal with these new feelings

[01:04:23] around relationships and connections that he's got.

[01:04:26] And particularly with Charles.

[01:04:29] And but we have that what he says at Monty,

[01:04:32] he he completely obscures the person that he's talking about.

[01:04:34] No, absolutely. Absolutely.

[01:04:36] But it is about Charles because we have Monty swinging in for a kiss.

[01:04:41] And he says, well, I have feelings about you, too.

[01:04:45] And Edwin says, I wasn't talking about you.

[01:04:49] Oops. You know, it's like poor Monty is kind of left

[01:04:53] on the swing and in the moonlight.

[01:04:56] And after sort of taking a gamble,

[01:04:59] the whole conversation, the opening up about his feelings

[01:05:03] and how difficult he he has

[01:05:06] with dealing with them is actually not about his feelings towards Monty.

[01:05:10] Exactly, exactly. Poor Monty.

[01:05:12] So we've got a goss earlier on in the episode when he was talking to Esther

[01:05:16] as she was working out, you know, the plan to get back at Edwin

[01:05:22] for what he did, kind of get that feeling properly from Monty

[01:05:25] that he's starting to get a bit sweet on Edwin.

[01:05:28] He's starting to like Edwin a lot.

[01:05:29] We also learn a lot more about about what's going on with Esther,

[01:05:32] that she's feeding her massive snake

[01:05:35] in the basement to keep her young because Lilith cursed her with eternal life.

[01:05:40] We talked a little bit about Lilith last episode, but it was.

[01:05:44] The eternal life was still that she could wither.

[01:05:48] She would grow older and older and older forever for all eternity.

[01:05:52] But it seems like Esther's found a loophole that she can feed young girls

[01:05:56] to to the snake. I love that line from it.

[01:05:58] It just suddenly had a bit of a flip of evil to her

[01:06:01] because she's been a very fun presence in the show, really,

[01:06:03] since we saw her the first episode, which is that flip of evil

[01:06:06] in her saying that she will take an entire generation of young girls

[01:06:09] and stay young.

[01:06:11] She does. Yeah, you can see the whole Lilith thing

[01:06:13] rankles with her for sure.

[01:06:16] And I mean, she does question Monty, you know,

[01:06:18] are you trying hard enough here?

[01:06:20] Because the plan is kind of nearing fruition.

[01:06:24] And we see her revenge kit that she got from

[01:06:29] tragic mix.

[01:06:30] Yes, at least the mushroom looks much bigger.

[01:06:34] So whatever that's about will be interesting.

[01:06:36] Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

[01:06:38] Anything else any other notes from the episode that we haven't talked about?

[01:06:41] I know none from me.

[01:06:43] Just one tiny note from me.

[01:06:45] Just the harbinger, I guess, that Nico's plan wasn't going to go

[01:06:49] very well of having Jenny Secret Amira come in for

[01:06:53] for the dinner date with her in the butcher shop.

[01:06:56] She used the magic eight ball that they got last week.

[01:06:58] Our last episode from from the ghost that was haunting the lighthouse,

[01:07:03] the magic eight ball that tells people when they're going to die in the future.

[01:07:06] It doesn't tell it doesn't tell Nico that.

[01:07:07] But what it does do it, it says the looks not so good as she's talking

[01:07:11] about the date. So the magic eight ball, I guess, was telling her

[01:07:14] things are not going to go well today with this date.

[01:07:17] And so I like that little touch of a harbinger of her back.

[01:07:21] Well, that it's going to go badly.

[01:07:23] I don't think even if she had taken it,

[01:07:25] she would have thought the date would go as badly as it did.

[01:07:28] No, absolutely.

[01:07:29] There is actually one thing we have Edwin, who's kind of got the book

[01:07:33] that Monty gave him on the astrology charts.

[01:07:36] And he says, you know, he just makes a comment around areas and tourists

[01:07:40] are not really very compatible with one another, whether that's him

[01:07:45] talking about himself, Monty or himself and Charles

[01:07:48] or maybe Charles and Crystal.

[01:07:50] I don't know. Yeah.

[01:07:51] He's definitely looking it up for a reason.

[01:07:53] Yeah, he's looking up for a reason.

[01:07:54] I wonder if we look back at that episode when Monty met

[01:07:59] Nico and Edwin at the start and told them what their birth

[01:08:03] signs were. Maybe there was something in that that we could work it out.

[01:08:07] Yeah, that's good little little catch there, John.

[01:08:09] Great stuff. Overall, John, what do you think of this episode?

[01:08:12] I'd give this three and a half roadkill faces out of five.

[01:08:17] That was the joke for the sprites.

[01:08:19] That's not as sad as your roadkill face.

[01:08:22] Yes. And no, I enjoyed it.

[01:08:25] Particularly around Jenny.

[01:08:26] Yes. I guess in some ways, the case of the two dragons

[01:08:30] I was less invested in for sure.

[01:08:32] And but I think, you know, the whole through storylines of Crystal

[01:08:36] and David the demon, but also the connections within

[01:08:41] the the dead boy detectives really enjoying.

[01:08:45] So yeah, three and a half roadkill faces out of five for me.

[01:08:49] Yeah, my only big detractor for this episode.

[01:08:52] I like I liked it, but my only big detractor honestly was the titles

[01:08:55] that were coming on screen, because if you're going to use that

[01:08:58] as your as your mechanic for all your episodes, make sure you're picking

[01:09:00] titles that explain what's happening in the scenes.

[01:09:03] It just some of them seem completely out

[01:09:06] out of sync with what was going on in the episode.

[01:09:08] So I thought like this, this I think two titles appear in a minute

[01:09:12] on the screen here. So get your titles right.

[01:09:15] Maybe maybe they came up with that after they'd written the episode.

[01:09:18] Maybe that was the way they did it.

[01:09:19] So it just seemed a bit odd.

[01:09:21] But overall, love and these characters really enjoy spending time with them

[01:09:24] and really enjoying them.

[01:09:25] And sometimes the cases just drop into the background a bit.

[01:09:29] Sometimes there's some really interesting stuff that's going on in the case.

[01:09:32] But I felt like there was more to do with Jenny and more to do with

[01:09:35] more to do with Edwin and Charles than the actual case this time.

[01:09:38] So so that was that was an interesting way of doing it.

[01:09:41] But yeah, I'm excited to see more of these characters.

[01:09:44] I'm really enjoying the characters.

[01:09:46] I love the story.

[01:09:47] I like like the tone of these episodes.

[01:09:50] I think there's a darkness, there's a lightness, there's a quirkiness to them.

[01:09:54] And I'm enjoying that.

[01:09:55] I enjoy this group of four of of

[01:09:59] and Charles and Edwin, but with Crystal and Nico

[01:10:03] almost as the complications and as I said before,

[01:10:06] I think the side characters of Jenny, Monty and Esther

[01:10:10] really good as well.

[01:10:11] And the cat king and just having as well, then

[01:10:15] just the crazy little sprites or the cats coming in, giving a quick commentary.

[01:10:21] Yeah. And generally a ruse commentary is really good fun.

[01:10:25] Absolutely great stuff.

[01:10:26] Let's see what our fellow dreamers have to say.

[01:10:28] Let's go over to some feedback from our wonderful fellow dreamers.

[01:10:32] If you want to send any of your thoughts, of course,

[01:10:33] you can email us to feedback at TV podcast industries dot com

[01:10:36] or again, join us on our Facebook group where there's a spoiler post

[01:10:39] up for each of the episodes of Dead Boy Detectives

[01:10:42] on Facebook dot com slash groups slash TV podcast industries.

[01:10:46] First up, we got a message in on Facebook from Dr.

[01:10:49] Bob on episode four, who says the open eyed anime existence of Nico

[01:10:53] wandering through the world and taking the bites she wants

[01:10:55] gives the ideal yang to the yin and repressed and slightly bitter Edwardian boy.

[01:11:00] Agi was an excellent monster of the week

[01:11:02] and has ruined my preconceived notions of the night nurse arc.

[01:11:06] Good to see Charlie putting his ghostly energies into

[01:11:09] assisting the heartbroken medium.

[01:11:11] But we're still left with Whistle then chasing after the tattooed mystery of Jenny.

[01:11:16] Who is it with the tag fighter, the cute librarian, not Walrus Man?

[01:11:20] Really enjoying this episode.

[01:11:22] Excellent stuff, Dr. Bob. Yeah.

[01:11:25] He guessed it was a he guessed it was a librarian.

[01:11:28] Yeah. And I guess what happens to the night nurse?

[01:11:31] Yeah, we didn't really kind of pick up on that.

[01:11:33] But seemingly she's been turned into a meal for Angie

[01:11:38] and the angler fish.

[01:11:40] How she survived that, what is going to happen?

[01:11:43] Exactly. Exactly. Good stuff. Thanks, Dr. Bob.

[01:11:46] Yeah. Thanks, Dr. Bob.

[01:11:47] Laura Willie Swink says really enjoying the show,

[01:11:50] especially this latest episode where we see Edwin beginning

[01:11:53] to open up his emotions and his sexuality.

[01:11:57] And I do love how Nico is gently supporting him through this discovery.

[01:12:01] Though I like all the characters so far.

[01:12:04] This friend dynamic is my favorite at this point.

[01:12:07] This show definitely aims for a younger demographic than Sandman

[01:12:11] and maybe even good omens.

[01:12:12] However, it still feels like the same game and universe.

[01:12:16] The fact that my 17 year old, my constant game and watch partner

[01:12:20] pointed out that the female dandelion pixie is tick tock famous

[01:12:24] really proves the point.

[01:12:25] But Dead Boys still features all the hallmarks of gaming's imagination

[01:12:30] and traditional and sometimes obscure mythology and law

[01:12:33] mixed with the author's quirky imagination and modern sensibilities.

[01:12:37] I do have one niggling issue with the show, which I will excuse

[01:12:41] because it's needed in order for the show to actually work.

[01:12:45] But there is a whole organization to deal with the dead

[01:12:48] who have gone missing.

[01:12:50] Does this infer that death is not doing her job

[01:12:52] to the best of her abilities?

[01:12:54] What she would never.

[01:12:57] Interesting point, Laura.

[01:13:00] All I'm going to say is that there is a reason in the comic books

[01:13:03] that I don't think they're going to explore in the Dead Boy Detectives,

[01:13:07] but we think might be happening in Sandman season two.

[01:13:10] Oh, interesting.

[01:13:10] Yeah, but they may they may have to explain it, I suppose.

[01:13:15] So pure speculation on my part, I think death may have allowed

[01:13:20] Edwin and Charles stay on Earth for longer.

[01:13:23] That's my feeling.

[01:13:24] There may have been some conversation with her

[01:13:26] where she's allowed them to stay here and do what they're doing.

[01:13:29] Because you're right that, you know, death knows where everybody is.

[01:13:33] Death comes for us all as the as the phrase goes.

[01:13:36] So if she hasn't made a deal with them, there's something happening here

[01:13:40] that's allowing them to stay on Earth for as long as they can.

[01:13:42] Or she's allowing them to do what they're doing without having told them,

[01:13:45] because they do think that she is after them.

[01:13:47] They go and hide.

[01:13:49] Yeah, exactly.

[01:13:49] So maybe she saw in this one, they get inside

[01:13:52] Charles's infinite micro universe in his bag.

[01:13:57] Exactly.

[01:13:58] So I wonder if we'll learn a bit more as to why they're on Earth.

[01:14:01] But you're right, there is a there is an entire department

[01:14:04] dedicated to the missing children, the children that weren't able to be

[01:14:08] brought to their final resting place.

[01:14:10] That's part of the show.

[01:14:12] Just the reason why I say it may be something they explain later on

[01:14:15] or maybe connected to Sam Mann was just that one line

[01:14:18] that said they're also completely overloaded with casework as well.

[01:14:22] So something is happening, something that we may not see in the show here.

[01:14:26] But I feel like you're right.

[01:14:27] They do need a bit of an explanation for that one.

[01:14:30] Definitely. Thanks, Laura.

[01:14:31] For the feedback, Heather Wallace says, I love Nico so much.

[01:14:37] She lights up the screen when she appears.

[01:14:39] Absolutely.

[01:14:40] Absolutely. That's a great, great character.

[01:14:42] Excellent stuff. A real bright spot, I think.

[01:14:45] And I love that it counters to what Jenny is, you know,

[01:14:50] this sort of darker goth like creature.

[01:14:53] Exactly. And she works well with the sprites

[01:14:55] because they're also really dark and saying things that she would never say.

[01:14:58] And as Laura said as well, just her connection with Edwin

[01:15:01] is really fun to watch. Yeah.

[01:15:03] And the episodes. Great stuff.

[01:15:04] We got an email in from Kofi Nvaka on episodes four and five.

[01:15:07] He says, Greetings fellow Dunked Defenders.

[01:15:10] If the first three episodes were set up, the fort slammed them well home.

[01:15:14] This has gone from a weird creative compromise

[01:15:16] to a show that's now its own animal.

[01:15:18] Now invested and hoping for another season from the typewritten

[01:15:21] admiration note to the lullaby held by the night nurse

[01:15:24] and digested by Angie this week was fantastic.

[01:15:27] Episode five established my favorite character of the show.

[01:15:30] Jenny is awesome and very much relatable.

[01:15:33] It's also the first time I've ever seen anyone turn a meat cleaver

[01:15:36] into a sexy fashion accessory.

[01:15:38] All that happened to this episode easily the standout was her once

[01:15:41] promising no good, very bad dinner date, both humorous and tragic.

[01:15:45] It showed along with Charlie's rock throwing tormentors

[01:15:48] and popular toxic jocks that people make for some of the worst demons ever.

[01:15:52] Five red crystal revelations, twitchy, richy reactions

[01:15:56] and meat cutes out of five piece and take care.

[01:15:59] Coffee and vodka.

[01:16:00] Great stuff. Coffee and vodka.

[01:16:02] Yeah, totally with you on Jenny.

[01:16:04] Really, really awesome.

[01:16:06] And yeah, I think you're absolutely right that the worst demons are

[01:16:10] the humans often and they're really mean.

[01:16:14] Absolutely.

[01:16:15] And, you know, it's easy to assign in a story that the evil of the world

[01:16:18] is a demon, but, you know, we've seen it in Sandman.

[01:16:21] We've seen it in some of the other characters that are in this in this universe.

[01:16:24] There are people that will be encouraged by demons,

[01:16:26] but the badness comes out of humanity very often.

[01:16:29] And, you know, that's what's caused a lot of the problems here.

[01:16:31] You know, that that line from Crystal saying that all of us are here.

[01:16:36] The connection that we have between all of us is boys going too far.

[01:16:40] Boys will be boys.

[01:16:41] Boys are allowed to do anything.

[01:16:43] And what happens to them?

[01:16:44] All of them are in this horrible situation because of because of humans.

[01:16:48] So yeah, really glad you're enjoying it as well.

[01:16:50] Coffee and vodka like like myself.

[01:16:54] So good stuff. Keep the thoughts coming in.

[01:16:56] Back to Facebook.

[01:16:57] Paul Tien-Shi Lee for episode four and five says

[01:17:01] the show very nicely balances plots from individual episodes

[01:17:05] with character changes in later episodes.

[01:17:08] Charles getting stuck in the Devlin house loop brings back his family trauma,

[01:17:12] which was further reactivated by Night Nurse

[01:17:15] and then finally opened up to Crystal and Edwin by the end of Dead Dragons.

[01:17:20] Great storytelling and show running.

[01:17:22] I doubt I'll be the first to bring this up.

[01:17:25] The show is pretty dang queer, and I'm glad the writers are handling that well.

[01:17:29] My quick read of the summary from the two limited comic runs

[01:17:32] suggests that Edwin reveals his feelings for Charles to Charles.

[01:17:37] It looks like the show is following suit, so we'll see how that works out.

[01:17:41] And a general comment about fictional Port Townsend borrowing a line from South Park.

[01:17:46] This is pretty messed up right here.

[01:17:48] Given the number of deaths, not to mention the number of severed feet,

[01:17:52] there'll be a ton of real crime podcasters swarming the place

[01:17:56] to keep up the great podcast work.

[01:17:58] Thanks, Paul.

[01:18:00] Not if Jenny gets them first.

[01:18:01] Yeah, exactly.

[01:18:01] But she doesn't like crime podcasts at all.

[01:18:04] Not at all.

[01:18:06] Oh, absolutely.

[01:18:07] Yeah, the number of deaths happening in this little town.

[01:18:10] It would be a magnet for real crime podcasts and detectives.

[01:18:15] I mean, even just with the lighthouse leapers,

[01:18:18] Charles is kind of saying we don't normally involve

[01:18:20] mortal humans in on the cases because they never believe it.

[01:18:26] Exactly.

[01:18:27] I guess maybe there's that element to it.

[01:18:29] Yeah, like didn't the cops who were interviewing Nico and Crystal

[01:18:31] thought they were on drugs for their explanation of what was going on.

[01:18:34] And shouldn't they be in school?

[01:18:35] I like that kind of running gag as well.

[01:18:37] Yeah, absolutely.

[01:18:38] I really like the focus on LGBTQ characters in the show as well, as you brought up, Paul.

[01:18:45] I suppose the interesting part is there are loads of straight characters in the show as well.

[01:18:49] We've met loads of them.

[01:18:49] We've met the jocks, we've met all the kids in the school now

[01:18:52] as they were being interviewed in this second episode.

[01:18:55] There's loads of characters there, but they're focusing on Edward and Charles

[01:18:57] and they're focusing on Edwin's thoughts about Charles.

[01:18:59] And, you know, they of course are going to have more storylines that would deal with

[01:19:02] that. They're handling it really well.

[01:19:04] It has been written really well because these are the characters that you're around.

[01:19:07] They're all the found family, I suppose.

[01:19:08] So they are going to have connections with each other.

[01:19:11] But you're right, the way that they're playing the long game with some of the storylines,

[01:19:16] things happening in episode three and paying off in episode five

[01:19:20] is also working really well for me in the show.

[01:19:23] Great stuff. Thanks so much for that, Paul.

[01:19:24] Thanks, Paul.

[01:19:25] And finally, Dr. Bob Phillips says,

[01:19:27] Flailing with so much unrestrained joy, I think I might be transmuting into a bearded

[01:19:32] bald Nico. The choices to abbreviate with a properly balanced filleting knife,

[01:19:36] the sexy femme librarian's psycho murdering stalker storyline into three scenes was

[01:19:41] unexpectedly fantastic.

[01:19:42] The unfurling and discovery of the richness of Edwin's feeling alongside the loving

[01:19:48] rebuilding of a traumatized Charles is heart achingly good.

[01:19:51] And the direct arrival of the octopus of Satan bypassing the need for death to have

[01:19:55] their softer conversations put a hard stop on that line.

[01:19:58] I'm reading this as death offering the heavenly ways forward, but will be swayed

[01:20:02] by what else we see.

[01:20:04] Great stuff, Dr. Bob.

[01:20:06] Yeah, I kind of mentioned about, you know, the potential for what happens in

[01:20:09] the afterlife being connected to the actual people themselves.

[01:20:12] And here, yeah, I would say that's these boys are being sent straight to hell for

[01:20:17] everything they've done and for everything that's been found out by the dead boy

[01:20:20] detectives here.

[01:20:21] And it kind of, you know, I suppose that kind of connects into what I was

[01:20:24] trying to say in response to Lara's thoughts about where death is.

[01:20:29] Potentially maybe some deal is being made by someone here to keep them on Earth

[01:20:33] because they're doing the investigation.

[01:20:34] Remember, they've got that postman that keeps delivering them cases and

[01:20:37] keeps delivering letters to them.

[01:20:38] So maybe somebody is behind a bit of that and wants them to do the

[01:20:41] investigations they're doing to find out what happened here to some of the

[01:20:45] spirits and some of the people in this town.

[01:20:48] So to deal with some of the backlog that's happening with the night, you

[01:20:51] know, for the nightness.

[01:20:52] Yeah, potentially.

[01:20:53] That's it.

[01:20:54] And the afterlife department, I guess.

[01:20:56] Yeah.

[01:20:56] Yeah.

[01:20:56] So it might be something that will come out as the episodes go on.

[01:21:00] Yeah.

[01:21:00] Great stuff, Dr. Bob.

[01:21:02] Completely agree with your thoughts about this show.

[01:21:06] Really great stuff.

[01:21:09] Yeah, been a lot of fun.

[01:21:10] And that's it for our chat at base.

[01:21:12] Episodes four and five, the Dead Boy Detectives, three more episodes to go.

[01:21:15] Next time we'll be back discussing the Dead Boy Detectives episode six,

[01:21:18] The Case of the Creeping Forest.

[01:21:20] Yes.

[01:21:21] And of course, episode seven, The Case of the Very Long Stairway.

[01:21:26] Absolutely.

[01:21:27] Thanks so much for joining us for this episode.

[01:21:29] Hopefully you'll be joining us for those two episodes next week.

[01:21:32] And if you've been enjoying the podcast, why not share it with friends?

[01:21:35] Because sharing the podcast is sharing the love.

[01:21:38] Absolutely.

[01:21:40] Thank you so much, fellow dreamers, for joining us for these two episodes of

[01:21:44] The Dead Boy Detectives.

[01:21:46] Until next time, of course, keep watching, keep listening, and of course, keep dreaming.

[01:21:50] Bye.

[01:21:51] Bye.