Daredevil Born Again Wrap Up

[00:00:00] This is the Daredevil Podcast on TV Podcast Industries and we're here to announce the winner of the Josie's Bar Pub Quiz and of course to discuss some of your glorious Daredevil Born Again feedback. You just gonna stand out there like a hobo, Matt, or you gonna come in and have a drink?

[00:00:37] Welcome back fellow defenders to our Daredevil Born Again Podcast on TV Podcast Industries. We are here to announce the winner of our Josie's Bar Pub Quiz and of course to round out the season and to get your thoughts about episode 9 or the season overall. And so I am one of your hosts, John. I am one of your other hosts, Derek. And rounding out the avocados a lot, I am Chris. Welcome back, Chris.

[00:01:08] Thank you. So as part of this roundup we're also going to get Chris's thoughts on the final episodes. We'll use the feedback to chat about the last episode and chat about your thoughts overall in the series. But I guess in short manner, Chris, overall happy enough with the season? Looking forward to season 2? Very happy with the season. Extremely looking forward to season 2. Very happy that it is coming 2026 so far. It is being produced.

[00:01:36] Confirmed for March 2026 as well. So Darius Gattapani put out a post last week to confirm it just after the finale came out. So we know it's coming in a year's time. That's awesome. Yep. And just as a whole, and we'll get into it much later, it is one of the gutsiest moves to end on an Empire Strikes Back style.

[00:02:01] Which is when your villain wins in season 1, that is some, you've got some guts and I am so excited to see more. Excellent. Yeah, it is a real Empire Strikes Back. We mentioned that a little bit on our podcast as well. But one of the things that I didn't even think of and everybody's been pointing it out in their feedback or in their thoughts of Daredevil. is, it's not Empire Strikes Back anymore. It's Avengers Infinity War now. That's it. Oh yeah. The villain wins.

[00:02:31] Everybody's all messed up and going into a second season needing an army to battle the villain. It's the Avengers, right? That's true. Yeah, I get that. I get that as well. Or the Defenders return. Yay! Yeah. Yeah. It could be all three at once. It can be. It can be. But John, I think we should kick off straight into our pub quiz results. Because I know all the way throughout the season you've been giving questions to our fellow quizzers and fellow Defenders, one per episode.

[00:02:58] Everybody's been sending in their answers and some lovely, lovely emails throughout the season that I've been getting to read. It's been really good fun hearing some of your thoughts as the episodes went out and as the questions were given as well. So since you've all been waiting, let's not wait any longer, I guess. I think so. Fellow quizzers, fellow Defenders, we are here for the Josie's Bark Pub Quiz.

[00:03:23] Let us kick off with the answers to the questions from each episode of this season of Daredevil Born Again. Absolutely. I think I'll kick this one off. Do it. Episode one, Heaven's Half Hour. The question we asked was, what is the name of the 20-year bottle of whiskey that Josie keeps behind the bar? It was, of course, and it was dotted throughout the season. It certainly was.

[00:03:52] And in fact became a plot point. It did. It is the 20-year-old O'Melveny's whiskey. Yes, O'Melveny's. I absolutely love it. We said it a couple of times. I think I had to edit it in a few times because I gave the answer multiple times. But O'Melveny's being a plot point for the season just proves the showrunners listen to the Defenders TV podcast and their whiskey watch to make sure that whiskey was the most important plot point to drive the end of the season. Exactly. Exactly.

[00:04:22] Brilliant stuff. Chris, do you want to give us the next question and answer? Yes. So from episode two, Optics, we had the question, while on another dinner date, what is the dream destination that Heather and Matt discuss and what would they drink there? The answer was Belize and double fisting Mai Tais. Excellent. Oh, they live on the edge, those two, with their double fisting Mai Tais.

[00:04:49] Indeed, I guess Heather's destination of choice is probably going back in time to 1930s Germany now after sort of becoming evil Heather. Hair Heather? Yes, hair Heather, indeed. Taking up a job with Kingpin, yeah? Yeah. Fraulein Heather. So she might be double fisting Mai Tais in the Oval Office in the future. She keeps following the path with the Kingpin. Well, I think that's something for the Washington Post to investigate. It might be.

[00:05:18] But Derek, would you give us the question for episode three? Absolutely. The question for episode three, the hollow of his hand. The question was, what are the names of the beach in Puerto Rico and the frog that lives there that are mentioned by Hector Ayala? It was the Kiel Beach and the cocky frog, which I absolutely love that they used that at the end of the episode where Hector passed. They had that instead of the music at the end. They had the noise of the cocky coming out instead of the music. I thought that was a really cool choice. Absolutely.

[00:05:46] On to episode four, fellow quizzes. Sik Semper Sistema. The question, what is the name of the band who originally performed the song covered by the choral school kids and the Latvians? It was, of course, Starship. We built this city on rock and roll. Yes, we did. Yes, we did. You know, there's a really interesting connection for Starship for the show. Can I share it? Go on.

[00:06:12] So Starship was previously Jefferson Starship, who was previously Jefferson Airplane from the 60s. And one of their biggest singles, one of the biggest songs was called White Rabbit. And in this show, one of the biggest things that's been brought through from Daredevil was Rabbit in a Snowstorm. So I love the little connection there that they did have that song. And the song they're singing for Kingpin is We Built a City on Rock and Roll.

[00:06:35] A terrible, terrible song from the former members of Jefferson Airplane or one final member of Jefferson Airplane, as far as I remember. But there you go. That's a little connection in the background, which I liked. Excellent stuff. Chris, take it away with episode five. Yes, episode five with interest. The question was, what is the number of the safety deposit box where the diamond is stored in New York's mutual bank? The answer was 407.

[00:07:04] Yes, this was one of the best episodes of the season. And again, there has been so many people going, well, in issue 407 of such and such, this run, this happens, and that was going to... No, no, it was just a PO box number. It was just a random 407.

[00:07:26] Well, don't listen back to our podcast of the finale, Chris, where I called out the fact that the vault where foggy stuff was stored was 296 and in issue 296 of Daredevil, Matt Murdock has tea with Mephisto. Don't listen back to that. Mephisto did make it into the MCU. He did. Yeah, of course. I'll go on to episode six question for excessive force. First, the question was, what benefit does Sheila tell Wilson Fisk he has to attend that evening?

[00:07:54] It is the Children's Art Fund benefit or Children's Art Fund benefit, one or the other. But yes, so he's going to be going and hanging out with Children's Art. No wonder he called it off and called an all-hands meeting instead of it. I don't think he enjoys being around children very much. Who does? Who does? Excellent. On to episode seven, Art for Art's Sake.

[00:08:19] We asked the question, how many milliliters of blood did Angela Del Toro lose to Muse? The answer is 2,500 milliliters of blood. Now, it has been pointed out in the answers and the responses to the question by Dr. Bob and Adam, who both came in to say that this is a massive amount of blood to lose.

[00:08:44] In fact, Dr. Bob says that 2,500 milliliters of fresh whole blood is an excellent reason to have a hypervolemic cardiac arrest. The only recovery from which would be giving fluid, preferably blood, but not whacking her sternum and looking hopeful. Yes, I can't let that one go. Yes, I know.

[00:09:07] I'm sure every medic in the land, every surgeon and doctor was like, oh, well, she's gone then. But then the magic of Hollywood steps in. The magic of TV tap chested to be grand. I do love how Dr. Bob pointed out it was fresh whole blood. You know, it's like whole milk. Yeah, exactly. It's just 2% whole milk, fresh blood. You know, that organic stuff.

[00:09:37] Yeah, exactly. Exactly. But no, thank you for the additional medical information. Absolutely. So basically what we're saying is Angela Deltaro is lucky to be alive. Well, yes. Maybe it is her superhero origin story. She somehow got some superpowers from Matt. Or something. Or she was wearing the amulet. See, that would have been really useful in the show.

[00:10:06] But there are a few things in the season because of how it was put together in the end. And there's a few things that really should have been there. A couple of little scenes and lines that they just didn't get to film or didn't have time with. Maybe she was wearing the amulet. Maybe. She had it in her pocket. In her hand. There you go. Something like that. Something like that. On to episode 8. The Isle of Joy. The question we had was, what perfume does Heather and a lot of the other guests at the Black and White Ball wear?

[00:10:34] The answer is Chanel No. 5. Indeed. Just like the Scream Queens. Oh, that's all right. Chanel No. 5. Or our local college, which is Chanel College. That's correct. Or, as I call it, Chanel No. 5 College. Yes, exactly. Yes. I'm still unsure whether Heather actually does wear that perfume. It seemed like a bit of a joke from Matt where he's like, ah, I tried to smell your perfume from across the room.

[00:11:02] But, yeah, I think she was like, I don't wear you that crap. I just wear links. Exactly. What's the female equivalent to links? It's Impulse, isn't it? Impulse, yes. It was. That was the one back in the day. I don't even know what that is. That is a very, like, geographic art in the UK. But it's good. It's good. Excellent. Right. Final question for the final episode. Straight to hell.

[00:11:29] The question was, in what year was the charter established for Red Hook as a free port? The year was 1855. And once again, pointed out by many other places, I think everyone was really surprised that a law that created a free port on the books in 1855 would actually still be in existence until a certain person has been enacting laws from around the 1800s in that particular country.

[00:11:53] Interestingly, it's probably more prevalent than you think. Yeah. Because unless you actually revoke acts of Parliament, Congress, whatever it is that you have, then they remain on the statute book. Absolutely. In Ireland, we have to have a referendum to change anything in our constitution. So there's weird things that were written in our constitution just 100 years ago that haven't been changed. So, yeah. Yeah. We'll eventually get there.

[00:12:22] There was a referendum or was going to be a referendum on daylight savings time. Yep. Yep. Just because it's in there. Because it's in there somewhere. Yep. So weird laws can kind of persist through time just because there's no particular issue with them. And then all of a sudden they are an issue. Exactly. Exactly. Or someone can use them to their advantage. Exactly. As seen here in Mr. Fisk's case or Merfisk's case. So we have all of our correct entries in.

[00:12:51] We have Isadora Mayer, Philippa Gergel, Keith Murray, Will Walton, Autumn Jensen, Dr. Bob Phillips, Coffee and Vodka, Heather Sass, Victor Sellers, Adam Downing and Raina Verhofft. As usual, Chris, we leave it to Google to give us a number between 0 and 11. Yes. Hey, Google, randomly select a number between 0 and 11. Sorry, I didn't understand, but I found something related.

[00:13:18] Hey, Google, randomly select a number between 0 and 11. Sorry, I don't understand. Hey, Google, randomly select a number between 0 and 11. 8. 8.

[00:13:44] This is the definition of 8, equivalent to the product of 2 and 4. Stop. One more. That's Heather Sass. Congratulations, Heather. Yes, congratulations, Heather. Excellent stuff, Heather. Congratulations on the win on the Josie's Bar pub quiz for this Daredevil Born Again season. Yep, season two. It's our 10th anniversary for Defenders TV podcast, so we do have some really cool goodies going out here.

[00:14:09] The one we have for definite right now going out here is going to be the Daredevil Born Again Tops trading card. It's very cool. It's all in its own little holder and everything. Oh, nice. Yeah, I know. It's really cool. And thanks so much to everybody else who's entered throughout the season. I hope you've enjoyed playing along with our pub quiz for this season. Indeed. And in fact, the trading card's already been on the travels because my sister brought it over and she was like, oh no, you nerds. Exactly, exactly.

[00:14:39] And we're like, yeah, we are. And so are some millions and millions of people because it was still one of the top viewed shows across the US and European Union on Disney+. Absolutely, massive. Absolutely massive. Excellent stuff. That is another season buy. It is another quiz from TV Podcast Industries. So thank you so much, fellow quizzers.

[00:15:09] And of course, in this instance, fellow defenders for participating in Josie's bar pub quiz. And of course, Heather, Derek will be in contact to get your contact details so that we can send out the goodies to you. So again, congratulations to everyone who entered and in particular, Heather, for winning this pub quiz.

[00:15:33] I think we should probably move on to our final feedback for Daredevil Born Again. Absolutely. Yeah, yeah. First up, we have a piece of feedback in from Autumn Jensen who emailed us to feedback at tvpodcastindustries.com. She said, Greetings, defenders. Thank you for your amazing coverage of Daredevil Born Again. I really enjoyed tuning in every week to hear your guys' thoughts and analysis of the show.

[00:15:57] As a new fan of DD, I thought this was a nice continuation of the original Netflix show, although I'm forever going to be devastated with the death of Foggy. Overall, I think they did a fairly good job working with or around what the season was originally going to be. It was a bit obvious in some parts, but I'm sure I didn't know about the reshoots. I wouldn't have noticed that much. I was surprised at how closely some of the more political parts of the show corresponded with current events, especially in the last episode.

[00:16:21] Given the show was written at least a year ago, this season honestly felt like more of a setup for season two rather than one fully contained season. It kind of felt like the end of Avengers Endgame Part 1, where we see the villain has basically won. That being said, if the last two episodes are any indication of what season two is going to be like, I'm sure the best is yet to come, and I'm absolutely thrilled to see it. I'd give the season four bottles of O'Melvenise out of five. Cheers, Autumn. Excellent stuff, Autumn. Thank you so much for the feedback.

[00:16:50] Yeah, it definitely feels like that setup, or as you say, Avengers Endgame feel to it. The kingpin reigns supreme, and in effect, he's dusted everyone, really. Certainly, certainly the chief of police is dusted. Gallo, yeah, absolutely. That old gallo. He's unhinged him, so yeah.

[00:17:13] It's really going to be interesting to see as well how this season two plays out, but it's going to feel pretty brutal, I'd say, with Kingpin in charge of the city. But it's like the apparatus of the city state, in effect. So it's really interesting to see when that gets abused. Yeah, I'm less so that it feels like a setup.

[00:17:38] More that, in actual fact, the more I've thought about it, this was just a foundational setup. It was almost like an origin again for Daredevil, because while we have had three seasons and The Defenders and his other pop-ups, a lot of people are only going back now and watching the Netflix series. Absolutely. Absolutely.

[00:18:05] They did have to almost restart the lore and things like that. So I think it was, as we talked about in the early episodes, it felt foundational. It felt like they were just explaining who is Matt, what drives him, what drives the rest of them, etc. And just kind of resetting both Kingpin and Daredevil back to who they were, making them born again into that situation.

[00:18:35] I'm very happy about how it was done, but I can only see it as being that foundation versus that very much as a setup. They both can be true, but I don't like thinking of it as that, because that almost diminishes it in my head. Yeah, I know exactly what you mean, Chris. The whole point of the show was to tell another story in the Daredevil world, right?

[00:19:03] They had a plan originally to just spring back Vincent Zonofrio and Charlie Cox. They changed that plan afterwards, which means they had to make some kind of changes to how they told that story. But there is a central story there in this idea of Wilson Fisk becoming mayor and of Matt Murdock becoming Daredevil again. And those are big story lines. And now it continues on. You know, comic books have been going on for 40 years. They aren't always a self-contained story, you know. Yeah.

[00:19:30] But it is so interesting because of how much is known about the behind-the-scenes stuff and how little is also known about the behind-the-scenes stuff. How much speculation is out there about how it was all done. You know, one of the biggest things, and I think we may hear it in the feedback later on, one of the biggest pieces of criticism the final episode got was when Matt Murdock said, I need an army and went into that room. And it was all of the characters that we've seen in the show Daredevil born again were in that room,

[00:19:59] all the people that were on the good side. And loads of criticism was, well, why didn't we see the Defenders in there? Why didn't we see, you know, Spider-Man in there? Why didn't we see some other people from the MCU in there? And Darius Garda-Payne would have had to introduce all of those characters to a brand new audience, right? That's the challenge. He's certainly not going to have Tom Holland walk into the room. We know that. They definitely wouldn't have had the budget to do it. But if they had Jessica Jones in there, she looks like a bar fly. She's a woman in a leather jacket sitting at a bar drinking whiskey.

[00:20:27] Yeah, okay, it's a nice little Easter egg for people who did see the shows that finished five or six years ago. But for everybody else, it's like, who's that? Yeah. So it makes more sense to go, his army is built up of all the people that you've seen this season, and next season we'll introduce some other characters that will join that army, right? I think that that's the only way of doing it. That's right. Because, and again, you have to see what they've done with Frank as well. Exactly, yeah. Like even having to introduce Frank the way they had to introduce him in this season, you know,

[00:20:57] he's a pretty well-known character. But again, he hasn't been on screen for quite a while. So they have to do some introduction to him. And I'd say some people that don't know the Punisher character were going, who's that guy? Yeah. Why is he dealing with a super in the basement of a building? Exactly. Why is he crazy? Yeah. Absolutely. Thanks so much for your thoughts, Autumn. I'm glad you enjoyed it, and I hope you're going to join us next season for the second season of Daredevil Born Again.

[00:21:27] I don't know whether I'd be drinking four bottles of Melvys, though. I'm thinking that as well. And I'm totally with you, Autumn, around Foggy. I think the death of Foggy is a good accelerator, though, for I guess what happens at the end. But it is a shame that Foggy got the bullet through the heart. Yeah, it is. But thanks so much, Autumn, for the feedback. Next up from Coffee and Vodka. Greetings, fellow retreaded defenders.

[00:21:56] I'm glad you're able to enjoy the show, whatever its form. For my part, however, the long and short of it is the dichotomy of style and purpose did not do this season any favours. What it did do was provide some entertainment with a flash of brilliance or two. The last couple of episodes, in particular, stand in quality with the first seasons of Daredevil and Jessica Jones.

[00:22:19] Finally, according to the directors, this is the last we'll see of Matt struggling with his frame of mind. Looking forward to seeing him get the band back together. Episodes 1, 8 and 9. Five Caged Crusaders. Foggy Resolutions. And Fearless Cities out of 5. Episodes 2 to 7. Never mind. Peace and take a coffee and vodka. Excellent.

[00:22:46] Thank you for the old brutal assessment there on Episodes 2 to 7. But, I mean, each to their own. Yeah, I mean, the last two episodes are really awesome. Honestly, I absolutely loved the bank episode. That was really cool. I thought the Muse episode was really good, even though it finished the Muse story way too quickly for me. I'd love to have seen him a bit more in the season. He could have been a great antagonist to both Wilson Fiskan and Matt Murdock.

[00:23:14] But, yeah, there's definitely some cool stuff that happened in the last two episodes. I totally get why they'd be 5 out of 5. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, I think on it, you know, the Muse storyline is the one that I wish had just seen develop more. Yeah. For sure. Yeah. Like, it felt, oh, finally we're going to get to know, oh, he's dead. Yeah. And he's gone. He's gone. And, oh, my God, oh, look, really good.

[00:23:43] And he's gone. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. But I really, I did enjoy seeing the glimpse of the character. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Thanks, Coffee and Vodka. Look, I suppose it's with the plethora of content we have out there, like Andor and Last of Us and everything like that. But I think it's okay not to like everything.

[00:24:08] But I think also I'm glad you found some joy and you're now ready for season two. And I think it would be even better. Absolutely. But overall, thanks, Coffee and Vodka. Next up, we had an email from Adam Downing who had this to say. This show, even with all the reshoots and changes that you could tell when they were, kept me hooked and entertained from the start of episode one till the post-credits scene in the finale.

[00:24:37] Don't know when season two will air, but I'm really looking forward to seeing what happens with these characters next. Thanks, Adam. I think that's the thing. I have to say, I'm really happy and interested with that post-credits scene and seeing all these characters like Cherry and Detective Kim. And we got Punisher escaping. It's so interesting what that setup is now that these characters have been introduced over a couple of episodes and we understand some of their motivations.

[00:25:07] But we also understand where they are with Fisk. Like, is Heather an actual plant? No, she's probably not. She probably is just going to go. That's going to be a foil against Matt. Will it get told? Will Wilson go, do you know what? Your ex-boyfriend's a bit of a devil in the sheets, I hear. Oh, and by the way, in a costume at nighttime as well. Oh, yeah. Like, is he going to do something like that?

[00:25:36] He was halfway through telling her who Matt was back in episode eight. And as they say, keep your friends close and your enemies closer, right? So that's why Heather's now working by his side. Yeah. Great stuff, Adam. And as we mentioned earlier on, we do now know that the show is returning in March of next year. So March 2026. Excellent. To see season two. Yeah. Good stuff. Thanks, Adam. Absolutely. Thanks, Adam. Next up, we have an email in from Victor Von Doom who says, Greasing's defenders. Alrighty then.

[00:26:04] Does everyone hate the kingpins enough now? The mayor going full kingpin on Gallo in front of multiple witnesses. I guess Disney has some splainin' to do. Does anyone think Sheila's betrayal of Gallo was a clumsy, ill-fated attempt to get in solid with kingpin or true betrayal? Right off, Heather, she has played herself right into kingpin's hands. I absolutely love the Empire Strikes Back nature of this finale.

[00:26:28] I anticipated Punisher's Bugs Bunny type okey-doke on the rather dense fanboy guard once he got to him to talk. A rather sloppy plot twist. But how else are we going to get a kingpin dungeon jailbreak next season? Welcome back, Karen. I'm all in for season two and more TVPI feedback. Excelsior, Victor Cherry Von Doom. P.S. RIP Gallo. His warning to kingpin about being careful what to wish for is increasingly prophetic. Guards is so stupid.

[00:26:57] Quote, Yosemite Sam. Well, they certainly are. Never shake the hand of a person behind bars. You just kind of feel, I think we might have said it, but you just kind of feel the guy's going, well, if I'm going to go out some way, at least it's the Punisher that's killing me because, you know, I do worship the guy. I'm such a fanboy. I'm so glad he's broken every bone in my body.

[00:27:21] I mean, I kind of get nervous when, you know, in jail scenes they push the food on the tray and unlock the hatch. I'm like, oh, no, they're going to get grabbed. But you push the tray with your foot from a distance kind of thing. I guess. Or you do. Yeah. Actually, I was going to say you do the Hannibal Lecter thing where you get them to, you know, chain their hands on the bars so they can't reach out to you. And then look what happened in that exact scene in Sands of the Lambs, right?

[00:27:50] Yeah, exactly. I think, Victor, in terms of Sheila's betrayal of Gallo, I think we discussed it in the way of, you know, she's kind of part of the system. So I think it's one of two things. It is either pure self-preservation. Yeah. And that might be why you see her with her head in her hands at the end, you know, wondering, you know, what have I done kind of thing?

[00:28:14] Or, you know, I think it's simply she's also part of that architecture that Kingpin talks about. And for her, she looks after the mayor in office. And that's who her boss is at the moment. And you can have, you know, it might just be that she's only after the fact realizing the true extent. I mean, I think she's been honest and you've seen that with her. Yeah.

[00:28:43] But I think she's always put it as it's part of the office. Yeah. You know, as you said, he'll be gone in five years time. I can survive that. I did it before. Yeah. Yeah. So, but I think, yeah, as soon as she hears that Commissioner Gallo has, was it, disappeared, but is it retired or fleed or whatever? However Kingpin puts it, because he certainly doesn't say that he ripped his jaw off. And crushed his head.

[00:29:11] You know, she knows there's something wrong with that explanation. Yeah. It'll be interesting to see how that character plays out in season two, because I think it could be a really interesting point. Absolutely. Chris, where do you take it, Sheila? So, for me, it's a read self-preservation. Back in the, as you both said, back in the very beginning, she talks about how, okay, well, Fisk is, you're here. I'm here for the office.

[00:29:40] You're just a blow in. You're going to be, you're here for now and you're gone again and I'll still be around. But she does allude to the fact that the rumors of him being this kingpin of crime back in the day, and he's now served his time and he's back to being a good professional. She alludes to that, like, she knows that those rumors are there and that he has, he was an evil man. Mm-hmm.

[00:30:10] So, I think it was a preservation shed, but it was also the realization of what has happened to Gallows. Yeah. And she's like, oh, no, I sent him to his death. Well, exactly. You know, there's also that line when Kingpin's even saying it to Sheila, you're the kind of person that people tell things to, and she kind of says, yeah, I got my ear to the ground. I kind of know everything that's going on. You suspect that by the time Kingpin's got back there, somebody has been in contact with her to tell her what happened.

[00:30:40] Yeah. You know, somebody has said to her, you know, Gallows dead, right? And Kingpin killed him. Yeah. You know? No, 100%. So, I do love that extra twist. We've said it before. Sabrina Gaffer is an actress we've been watching right back to the first episode of Gotham. So, having her have a great role in this final episode, setting her up to have some interesting storyline coming up in season two, I think is just fantastic use of a great actress where in the original season, she could have been just a background character who brings in papers to sign.

[00:31:10] And that's kind of it, you know, a sounding board in the office for Kingpin. And so, having her have this big moment at the end of the episode and aligning herself with the Kingpin, the mayor of New York, in this way sets it up to be a really interesting potential foothold for Matt's army in season two, maybe. I think so. And I like the idea that Gallo might get, you know, his thing across from beyond the grave.

[00:31:38] You know, as Victor says, you know, his warning about being careful what to wish for, because that's the interesting thing that Gallo introduces here, is the idea of the governor of New York State in Albany. You know, or the federal system. Like, do you know what I mean? It's kind of interesting.

[00:31:59] Well, he says to Sheila, I'm going to go to Albany in order to bring what Kingpin is doing to the ears and attention of the governor of New York State and the state legislature in Albany. And that's it. Sometimes you forget there is this whole state infrastructure that is beyond the federal in the U.S.

[00:32:29] So I wonder if something like that might play out. I don't know. But I really hope Sheila is in season two. Absolutely. You know, they really do. Yeah. I think she, I think, I think they've set it up that she will be. I think that she's going to have, they're all going to have a story. I think the one I am interested in now is B.B. Ulrich. Mm-hmm.

[00:32:56] And how, or how far that goes with Gallo admitting that there are files upon files on each of these and all the badness. Is it like, did he have a dead drop? Yeah. Like that when he went missing, this goes to B.B. And that kind of is her smoking gun, her deep throat. Yeah.

[00:33:20] Or is it like someone like that, that kind of, because that's the way they were setting up Gallo's to be. So I'm interested to see where that particular thread of B.B. Ulrich and knowing that Kingpin and Fisk was essentially, did what happened to Gallo's happened to Ben and to her uncle? And that is an additional motivator. Yeah, exactly. The crux that pushes her forward.

[00:33:50] But yeah, I'm really interested to see where that goes. Thanks so much, Cherry Von Doom, for all of those great points. Yeah. Thanks, Victor. We have another email from Rina Veroft, who goes, Hello, lads. Last week I binge listened to all of your Daredevil and Punisher podcasts. Wow. And I thoroughly enjoyed it. Now catching up on the Born Again series, I think it's very good considering it's two different concepts. Frankenstein together. I like the turn of phrase.

[00:34:20] Love that, yeah. While there are definitely still flaws with it, my main criticism being the characters feeling quite flat, I overall still enjoyed the performances and storyline ideas and the interactions between our established cast. Seeing Matt and Frank bicker and the clear-cut confirmation that Karen and Frank love each other makes my heart flutter. Episode 9 absolutely made me ecstatic for Season 2 and the Punisher special.

[00:34:49] So I think a job well done by the showrunners, Rina. Excellent stuff, Rina. Yeah. And I think that's it. You know, if you're coming out of a season and you really want to get to the next one, you know, in a positive frame of mind, it's like, yeah, job done. That's really good from the showrunners. And I do believe that, yes, they've had to contend with whatever they've had to deal with around the production and all that.

[00:35:16] But in the end, it did work. It did. And, you know, we watch every episode twice, always. And I never felt it was a chore to re-watch any of these episodes every week. It wasn't like, oh, no, I've got to watch that episode again to take my notes for the podcast. That's happened sometimes in the past with some individual episodes of shows. Even the original three seasons of Daredevil, that happened once or twice. Not very often. But this season has worked quite well, you know.

[00:35:43] But I do see definitely, Rina's point, we mentioned it earlier on, about some of the characters feeling flat throughout the season. You know, there's moments that come back to me where, you know, you've got Daniel, who's supposed to be this very big character in the show. And sometimes he's being played like the sidekick who just sits around the office and throws a witty line towards Kingpin. And then at the end of the season, he's the new vice mayor, I guess. Is that the term? Vice mayor? Yeah. The deputy of communications.

[00:36:12] Deputy mayor, yeah, effectively. So that's quite a big character arc with quite a small amount of screen time. And you would assume if you had created the show with these nine episodes in mind, you probably would have had more moments with all of those characters in the background. But it worked. It was eventually Frankenstein together well, exactly as Rina said, to deliver this.

[00:36:33] I think also on our Facebook group, we do have a piece of feedback from a mathematician, but I think on our Facebook group, he asked a question about the point that Rina makes here, where in the show, it kind of confirmed that Karen and Frank have a loving relationship between the two of them. And something that was hinted at a couple of times in Daredevil and in the Punisher two seasons as well. So he was asking the question, is this something that you think they'll explore in the next season of Daredevil Born Again?

[00:37:01] Just from Rina's point, I wanted to mention it here. So not only do we get confirmation that their hearts went to flutter when they were in the room with each other, we also get a little bit of confirmation that that happened with Matt and Karen as well. A little bit of a love triangle. Might be a lot more bickering between Frank and Matt. Possibly. I think that it's a really interesting idea. I love that they've seeded it.

[00:37:26] We always knew there was something there, but the interesting thing about the character of the Punisher is if you take away, if you give him a new relationship, yeah? Which I think we talked about back in Punisher season two. If you give him a new love interest after he has been waging war for the death of his wife and children, it kind of takes away that motivation. So it might be the final end game for Frank. Maybe. You know, love sued the savage beast, I guess, would be that storyline.

[00:37:52] He eventually settles down with Karen and that's the end of his punishing the world for the death of his family because he's finally found something to continue his life with or something to give his life meaning again. That might be a way to handle it, but I can't see the love triangle being a storyline for the third season of Daredevil. No, I can't. I think, like, for Frank, it's as far as he can go with that sort of notion of possibly having another person, at least for the purposes of these shows.

[00:38:22] Yeah. I mean, yeah, I can't imagine him, like, you know, getting a Valentine's gift and saying, you know, when I say these roses are red, they're really red. You know, they started off yellow. They were blue roses. Yeah, exactly. You know, so, yeah, I don't see that. And I think it's better left unsaid, like, you know, this notion of the heart flustering, but we don't hear it.

[00:38:51] So, you know, we've not got that validation over it. Maybe it was just adrenaline. Exactly. Maybe it was just adrenaline. I do like that. I am somewhere in between for both of this. I think giving Frank someone who he connects with on that level is an interesting premise because what I remember from those two seasons of Punisher is that he was so alone.

[00:39:15] And that connection with Karen over that period was the anchor that kept bringing him back to reality. Exactly. That kept bringing him back from the side of Frank going Frank pure psychotic crazy, which we even saw towards the end of the series when he was in Matt's apartment. Yeah. He does go. He hulks out. He rage hulks out on a lot of these pieces. Yeah.

[00:39:41] But he also says the only reason he's there is because he got a phone call from Karen, basically, which brought him back to the world, brought him back to this fight. He said this wasn't his fight, basically. Yeah, exactly. And then Kevin McCall and said, hey, could you go take care of Matt? Okay, no problem at all. So I think it would be interesting to see it explored. But for me, personally, I think the juxtaposition between Matt and Karen is a better one.

[00:40:09] I think Frank and Karen are bonded by trauma. Yep. I think Matt and Karen are bonded by trauma. I suppose, actually, also bonded by trauma. I just think that connection's a bit deeper. I think that's just the person I can. I might be biased based on the comic books. But I think just the way the characters were built out in the Netflix show. Yeah. I see it being a bit more.

[00:40:39] But let's wait and see. Time will tell. Well, maybe the Punisher one is where she goes, no, we just must be friends. Or maybe she decides, you know, why can't she date them both? Well, I see. It's polyamorous, yeah. We are in that world. Maybe. Or even just sequentially that she's like, no, Frank, you really are too much of a nightmare with fiddling and cleaning your gun barrel. So I'm going to go to Daredevil and Matt.

[00:41:09] That could be it. I don't know. But I don't think it's going to happen. No, I don't think. Maybe not. But thank you so much, Raina, for all that feedback. Absolutely. Great stuff. Thanks, Raina. Thanks, Raina. Over on Facebook, we got some feedback on episode nine from Mathematician who had this to say. I don't know what was the most frustrating part of the episode. Normally, I would have said that Matt saying we need a team and then Karen opening the doors

[00:41:35] to a bunch of good cops rather than Luke, Jessica and Danny would have topped the list. But Heather Glenn. We know Fisk is a master manipulator. But for someone who is supposed to know the inner workings of the human mind, she has come across as easy peasy for him to radicalize and have me shouting at the tally to stop listening to him. We didn't get the other defenders.

[00:42:02] So it looks like Matt and Frank have to take on Fisk and his task force in season two. Roll on the Thunderbolts in two weeks time. Wouldn't it be great if the events of a New York blackout with the new Mayor Fisk running the show with martial law were referenced in some way? Thanks, Mathematician. I'm interested to see. I don't know if it will be referenced because, to my understanding, right now, Daredevil Born

[00:42:30] Again in the chronology of the MCU is the most furthest point we have seen. Okay. And that Thunderbolts takes place somewhat earlier. Okay. Because of the events of that also lead into people talking about vigilantes and things like that. That is my understanding. That being said, in a week's time, it will come out because the interviews are happening and the premieres are happening. The premieres already happen. So somebody already knows.

[00:42:59] Somebody in the world already knows if there's a reference to it. Sadly, Vincent D'Onofrio confirmed there's no ability for the character of Kingpin to appear in MCU movies at the moment. That's a deal that has to be worked out. So we won't see Vincent D'Onofrio on the big screen unless he was lying and he does play Fisk. So maybe he was lying and he's going to appear in the Thunderbolts in two weeks time. Maybe. Maybe. Or maybe one of the incursions. Possibly. Maybe. A kingpin world. Yeah, absolutely.

[00:43:28] Could be the way they'll go. And I mean, I think as well, mathematician to your point, I think in some ways, Heather Glenn just maybe was one of those flatter characters from this to some extent. Maybe for whatever reason, you know, didn't come through with some of the rework that was happening or just couldn't. However, it played out. But it'd be interesting. Again, at least she's through in on season two.

[00:43:56] So maybe we'll see a bit more. Absolutely. It is just really interesting that Heather Glenn could be radicalized this way by Fisk. You know, we were watching the first episode of The Last of Us who has a psychotherapist in there played by Catherine O'Hara, and she has a very small time on screen in that episode. But she is in conversation with a character in front of her who is lying through his teeth at her. And she literally puts down her book, sits back and goes, you're lying to me until you stop lying to me.

[00:44:26] I won't believe anything that you say at all. We can't continue with this therapy, you know. And you would think someone like Heather Glenn, who's writing books about mask vigilantes season about, you know, these books exploring huge human themes would be the kind of person sitting in front of Vanessa and Wilson Fisk and going, no, I'm not listening to anymore. You're clearly lying about your business. You're clearly lying about what's gotten you to this position of power. And you need to stop lying to me.

[00:44:54] And maybe then we can have a true conversation about everything. And maybe then that's the way they radicalize it. They explain to her how they justify their business. And that gets Heather on side. But here it's, oh, I was kidnapped by a vigilante who tried to kill me. Wilson Fisk's right. He wants to rid the entire city of a vigilante. So I'm on his side. Fisk number one. So hopefully that will be developed better throughout season two. But it's an interesting position to have to have her at the end of the season going into the next season.

[00:45:23] I mentioned before in the comic book storyline, Matt Murdock works for works for Wilson Fisk as his DA. So they are working in the same office this time. It's now his partner, Heather, who's working for him. So it's quite interesting. Yeah, absolutely. Great stuff. Thanks for that, mathematician. Yeah, thanks, mathematician. Thank you so much, mathematician. Our last piece of feedback comes from Dr. Bob, again on episode nine.

[00:45:51] As with all excellent speculative fiction, the story points a mirror straight back at the times it was written from. Painfully close to reality, the unhinged and uncontrolled kingpin lets loose his desires for blood power and fine dining. I really didn't expect Karen to return or Matt's flat to be exploded. The other beats were satisfyingly landed.

[00:46:17] I really hope Dr. Love Interest throws back the lead on mental health when she gets a peek behind the curtain of power. Bring on season two. I love that Dr. Bob calls Heather Gladden Dr. Love Interest. It still makes me laugh. Yeah. Well, technically, I read an article, again, with the interview on the showrunner that she is now Dr. X Love Interest. Yes, I would say so. And that is confirmed. Uh-huh.

[00:46:47] But I was like, well, is it? Because we've seen Matt kind of get fluttered and heart fluttered before by X as many times. Electra Natchos. And Karen Page. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So definitely interesting to see what happens in season two on that. I think the problem is it's all a bit, the love side of things with Daredevil, I'm not saying it's totally him, but it's all a bit toxic.

[00:47:15] Like, that's kind of part of the issue. But I mean, in this case, Dr. Love Interest is also being quite toxic. Yeah. You know? But we'll see. I hope there's something for Heather Glenn in a redemptive way, I think, in season two. That's what I'm really hoping for that character.

[00:47:37] But I do think, as Dr. Bob says, it is really good to see this element of these desires for power and mirroring the world that we've all kind of tripped up into, I guess, or slid on into. But as always, Dr. Bob, thanks so much for the feedback. Great to get your thoughts on Daredevil. Thanks for your feedback, Dr. Bob.

[00:48:04] But we have one more piece of feedback that came into feedback at DefendersTVPodcast.com. So I almost missed it. Really sorry to Aina, who sent the email in there. Almost missed it, John. Yeah. Don't usually check that email. Yeah. So glad we did. So much so that Chris is already gone now. So he's going to miss this piece of feedback. But John, do you want to take this feedback? Absolutely. Aina says, hi to my very best Defenders. I just finished the season finale and I needed to let out some steam.

[00:48:31] I'm so disappointed they didn't make more of the fact that Matt saved Wilson's life taking the bullet. It was such a huge moment and totally unexpected. I think the viewers were all taken by surprise. But not only the viewers. I think Poindexter was just as surprised and Kingpin. And I would say even Matt himself, leaving that without any consequences. But Matt having a very slightly dysfunctional left shoulder in the next episode is bad writing. And it annoys me.

[00:49:01] It also disturbs me because it shows that the creative team doesn't seem to attend to or cherish these characters as they should. Wilson Fisk is one of the greatest villains in modern culture. Not because he is the greatest monster, but because he's such a complex and multi-layered monster. No way he wouldn't react to Daredevil saving his life. Maybe with curiosity, maybe with rage, but no way would he send an underling to try and kill Matt before he'd solved this knot.

[00:49:28] I think about the arc in the comics where Kingpin and Daredevil find some kind of mutual respect. And the King of Crime explicitly forbids gangsters in New York to touch the blind lawyer named Matt Murdock. Something of this, just a small hint, would have helped. Wilson talking to Vanessa over how this complicates things. Maybe even stating that he can't kill Daredevil now and showing how this angers him.

[00:49:54] And Matt himself, so many interesting doors opened for him following his move in the end of the penultimate episode. Being wounded and forced to sit by and watch Frank save the day. Being left to do only the kind of smart and delicate Daredevil stuff they showed us in episode 5. Or finding in his Catholic heart a way to redemption for trying to kill Poindexter that terrible night. A life he should never have tried to end, but now paid off with him saving Kingpin when he didn't have to.

[00:50:24] Or even just giving him the chance to explain himself with the White Tiger's words. Because that's what good men do. Showing us all that he still believes in goodness. That he still has hope. All these opportunities wasted. But I have to admit, I was happy to see Karen again. Thank you for reading this. Ina from Sweden. Excellent stuff, Ina. And thank you so much. Do you know, what you say that I think is absolutely true.

[00:50:51] The huge moment of him saving Kingpin's life really just was not covered. It wasn't, yeah. And I think you're absolutely right to point that out. Because it is such a big thing for Matt, for Kingpin personally, for those around them that know, like Vanessa. But equally for the dynamic between the two of them. Yeah. And you're right, totally.

[00:51:17] I definitely see that as being a huge gaping hole. I mean, hopefully they will cover it in season two. Yeah. For sure. It's further complicated by the fact that, you know, Kingpin, as you say, just effectively sent out his sidekick in book to effectively kill him. And also sent the task force to kill him at his apartment. And in the end, the apartment blowing up.

[00:51:43] So, I mean, Kingpin's really kind of, that nuanced element that you described from the comics. Yeah. Seems to be a little bit lost having gone down that route so quickly. This Wilson Fist definitely didn't choose to say, oh, Matt saved my life. Therefore, I can't have him killed. That definitely wasn't it. In fact, him saying it's better to have a dead hero than a live vigilante was kind of the opposite of that. But I do think there is just a little moment in there where Matt's asked, you know, why did you step in the way and take the bullet for Kingpin?

[00:52:13] And he kind of goes, I don't know. I'm wondering that myself. And I think that is going to be a question that he'll answer in the second season. Like, as we said, part of the challenge that they've had this season is telling these stories that they want to tell and matching them with the story that was already there. And this concept of the two of them being barreling towards each other, Kingpin and Matt. And then at the end, Matt saving his life. I'd say that was a bigger arc that they could have told in nine episodes.

[00:52:37] But because they had to tell two different stories across these nine episodes and kind of Frankenstein them together as their other piece of feedback said, some things maybe are laying groundwork for season two and things that Matt has to think about. Because it's not going to be a full on battle for nine episodes with Matt and his warriors versus Kingpin and the police force or his. Let's hope not. I'd say there's going to be more depth to it than that, or at least I hope so. So this gives them something to play with next season, let's say.

[00:53:04] The next time that Kingpin and Matt sit down in the cafe, the question coming from Kingpin will be, why did you save my life that night? You know, that's an interesting conversation to have. But I think certainly in the immediacy, I think there's the opportunity wasted, as you say. And, you know, it's a little limited in terms of how they address it, given the scale of it. And ultimately, as Fisk does describe, how it complicates things.

[00:53:32] And it does for both of them. It should, yeah. And it maybe just did not come across as well as it should have done in this instance. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Thanks so much, Aynad, from Sweden. Great to hear from you. Yeah, great stuff. Thanks for sending in your feedback. Absolutely. And thanks to everybody who's been sending their feedback in throughout this season. You can keep getting in contact with us by going over to our Facebook group at facebook.com slash groups slash TV Podcast Industry. There's a spoiler post up there for every show that we're covering, every episode of every show that we're covering.

[00:54:02] You can also chat with us about anything over there. Or you can email us to feedback at tvpodcastindustries.com. We have got so much other great stuff coming up later on this year. We'll be back in the Marvel Cinematic Universe, as we already mentioned, with Thunderbolt's asterisk coming out in two weeks' time. I'd say we're going to know what that asterisk is going to mean pretty soon. I really hope so, because it's so stupid. I think it's going to be something very funny and you're going to enjoy it a lot. I probably will, but at the moment I find it really annoying and stupid. I just want it to be Dark Avengers.

[00:54:32] Give me Dark Avengers. You never know, Chris. You never know. But Daredevil Born Again, of course, will return in March 2026. Before that, we're going to have Ironheart, Eyes of Wakanda, the Fantastic Four movie, Marvel Zombies and Wonder Man, all from the MCU in 2025. So lots and lots of stuff to chat about in the MCU before we get back to Daredevil. Yes, indeed. Yes, and of course, we have just started on The Last of Us Season 2 as well.

[00:55:00] So if you fancy something different, myself and Derek are covering Season 2 of The Acclaimed Last of Us, both in terms of TV as well as game. So we've just finished with Episode 2 and the shock and horror of that with Episode 3 coming out next week. Absolutely. Come join us.

[00:55:24] Yes, but if you want to dive into 10 plus years of content, head on over to tvpodcastindustries.com and make sure you check out our dulcet tones in between shows. But until that point, make sure you join us weekly for any of the shows we're covering. And we will see you again very soon. Absolutely.

[00:55:53] Thanks so much for joining us. Speak to you next time. Yes, sir. Thank you, fellow defenders and fellow quizzers, of course, for joining us. Yes, congratulations, Heather. Yes, congratulations, Heather. And thank you for joining us for this season of Daredevil Born Again. But until next time, keep watching, keep listening and, of course, keep defending. Bye. Bye. Bye.

[00:56:38] Heather Suss. Congratulations. Fantastic. Congratulations, Heather. Yes, congratulations, Heather. Thank you. I couldn't have done it without you. This is hilarious.