The Sandman 209

The Sandman Season 2 Episode 9 Transcript

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[JOHN]: This is the Sandman podcast on TV podcast industries, and we're discussing the Sandman season two episode nine, the kindly ones.

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[LUCIENNE]: I know this is frustrating for you.

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[LUCIENNE]: Not being able to leave.

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[LUCIENNE]: Not being in control.

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[LUCIENNE]: That the only thing that matters is that you're home and you're safe.

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[MORPHEUS]: I'm not safe here.

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[MORPHEUS]: I'm in hiding.

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[MORPHEUS]: The path that I'm on leads to my death.

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[MORPHEUS]: It's only a matter of time.

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[LUCIENNE]: You say that as if you don't have a choice in the matter.

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[MORPHEUS]: I don't.

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[LUCIENNE]: You do.

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[LUCIENNE]: The same choice the rest of us who are not of the endless have to make, every minute of every day.

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[MORPHEUS]: What is that?

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[LUCIENNE]: The time you have left may be limited,

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[JOHN]: Welcome back fellow dreamers.

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[JOHN]: This is TV podcast industries and we are discussing episode nine of season two of the Sandman the kindly ones I'm one of your host John and I'm your other host Derek welcome back to our Sandman coverage been a wilder

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[JOHN]: It just feels like it's been ages, but I know we've been drip feeding them slowly across August and but I do think we've probably missed a week or so in between, or maybe two.

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[JOHN]: But it's good to be back with the Sandman for sure.

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[DEREK]: Yeah, yeah, we were trying to do them as much as we could, but it's just myself and John covering most of the podcast.

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[DEREK]: We're doing it the moment we were covering early in Earth, and we're covering the Boys Gen V. So we recorded as many as we could in advance, and then it took us a little bit longer to get back to the Sandman.

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[DEREK]: Then we thought so we have a couple of few weeks for Sandman episodes, and not much of a gap on TV bugcasters industry, though.

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[JOHN]: We've had lots of podcasts have been going on on TV podcast industries and of course we are still to get to Marvel's zombies the animated series of four episodes Yeah, but they decided to release that in September instead of October That's their fourth knowledge.

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[DEREK]: Yeah, well exactly you put that out at Halloween time We'll cover it all the way just to say fellow dreamers.

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[JOHN]: We're sorry

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[JOHN]: possibly neglected you for a while.

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[JOHN]: But we are back here discussing episode 9 and hopefully episode 10 probably the week after next around then because again with all these episodes dropping series dropping all in one go like Marvel zombies.

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[JOHN]: life ultimately gets in the way as well.

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[JOHN]: I'm away with work for a week.

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[JOHN]: So I can't do that.

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[JOHN]: I know Chris was away as well on holidays.

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[JOHN]: So, yes, and glad to be back in the world of the dreaming.

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[DEREK]: We will close the night this year.

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[DEREK]: I promise, but I suppose the other thing is.

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[DEREK]: The books, but I, since the 80s, the show all dropped a couple of weeks, so we will get round to covering.

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[DEREK]: We are so excited about covering it.

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[DEREK]: We are going to dedicate the time to it, even though we do know that this is not one of the most heavily listened to podcasts that we have this year, but we know those of you that are listening are really enjoying it.

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[DEREK]: I want to say a huge thank you to Rod for reaching out telling us that he really is enjoying the podcast about the same man's season two and to obviously Dr. Barbon and Coffee

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[DEREK]: Thanks to all of you for listening along with us.

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[JOHN]: It's great to get your thoughts and observations all the way through, even with our slightly sporadic releases of the salmon.

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[DEREK]: Absolutely, and it also just goes to show you those of you that have asked us to do retrospective, look back on TV shows that have been it for a long time, things like ages as shield.

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[DEREK]: This is what would happen if we went back to shows that have been on a long time.

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[DEREK]: We have to fit them around shows that have come out regularly and we never get to the end.

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[JOHN]: We've done a few retrospective.

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[JOHN]: We really did have some down time.

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[JOHN]: I think it was around COVID.

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[JOHN]: We did Penny dreadful three seasons and that was just myself and Derek.

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[JOHN]: We've gone back where we needed to sort of for the full sort of card deck of movies with the Marvel movies.

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[JOHN]: A lot of cases.

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[DEREK]: That may be too much, we've still got a full 10 Marvel movie that we never covered as far as our member yet.

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[DEREK]: Yeah, exactly.

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[JOHN]: So, and lots still to do.

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[JOHN]: Firstly, as we get into our spoiler-filled discussion of the kindly ones, just a quick reminder fellow dreamers that you can pop on over to our website at tvpodcastindustries.com, where you can subscribe on any dream full all nightmarish podcasts play out.

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[JOHN]: of your choice.

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[JOHN]: Also, as we said, we love to get your feedback in on any of the episodes of Season 2 of Sandman.

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[JOHN]: So please keep them coming in to feedback at tvpodcastindustries.com or if you wish you can join the group over on Facebook at facebook.com forward slash groups forward slash tvpodcastindustries where we have our spoiler filled posts for all the episodes of Season 2 of Sandman there.

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[JOHN]: And you can join in the conversation with the other fellow dreamers listening on as well, and but Derek who gave us What were when and how for this episode of the salmon?

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[DEREK]: Well, for the series, the executive producers are Alan Heinberg, Jamie Charles, and David S. Gourre.

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[DEREK]: The episode was directed once again by Jamie Charles, and he telly play for the episode this time was done by Greg Goethe.

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[DEREK]: This is his first episode of The Sandman that he's written, but he has been a script supervisor and on the Russian staff for this season.

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[DEREK]: And also was a Russian on season three of Apple TV series Foundation, also with David S. Gourre.

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[DEREK]: So I would say that's the reason I really want to see that.

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[JOHN]: Let's just say don't have Apple TV.

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[DEREK]: Now I really want to see three seasons over there and now we have it.

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[DEREK]: Now we know a writer from the show.

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[DEREK]: That is true.

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[JOHN]: That is true.

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[JOHN]: Excellent stuff.

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[DEREK]: And John, do you want to tell us what that gave us with your synopsis for?

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[DEREK]: Season two episode nine, the kindly ones.

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[DEREK]: Sure.

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[JOHN]: Morpheus entrusts the Corinthian to Joanna Constantin, placing in her care a deadly pendant capable of making him at any time, and necessary safeguard against the Nightmares more violent instincts.

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[JOHN]: Elsewhere, suspicion brews in Daniel's babysitter, Mrs. Shaw.

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[JOHN]: She refuses to believe Daniel is truly dead, and investigation needs her to the trail of Loki, who truly incinerates her to cover his tracks.

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[JOHN]: Meanwhile, Mad Hetti urges a grieving lighter hole to summon the kindly ones, with a promise of justice.

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[JOHN]: In the Dreaming Morpheus receives a visit from his sister Delirium, she sought help from their brother Destiny to find her missing doggy Barnabas, but while trying to provide Delirium with direction, multiple Destiny's appear, intrigued by this unusual occurrence, Morpheus

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[JOHN]: Back at his hotel, Loki brings the charred body of Baby Daniel from the fire.

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[JOHN]: But not only is the charred on hand, this humanity has been seared away, readying him for his role as a future guard.

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[JOHN]: His twisted plan, however, on settles his boyfriend, Pook, who, in sense by Loki's deception, leaves him for a drink at the hotel bar.

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[JOHN]: Diana Constantin and the Corinthian track Loki's movements but inadvertently summoned Odin during the pursuit.

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[JOHN]: They hunt leads them to the hotel bar where they find a disheartened puck who hands over Loki's room key before he returns to fairy.

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[JOHN]: The confrontation escalates as Joanna and Karinthian face Loki, but their battle is interrupted by the thunderous arrival of Odin and Thor.

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[JOHN]: The gods swiftly reclaim Loki, dragging him back to his eternal subterranean prison.

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[JOHN]: In the aftermath, a flicker of unlikely affection begins to form between Joanna and the Karinthian, though she keeps her distance.

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[JOHN]: Meanwhile, later meets the kindly ones, who agree to aid her in her quest for vengeance, specifically the death of Morphius.

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[JOHN]: In theory, Pukritans dream for Nula that later has unleashed the Kanywans upon the dream king.

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[JOHN]: Alarmed, Nula searches for a pendant only to find, it has been taken by Queen Titania.

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[JOHN]: The fairy queen uses the necklace to some Morphius

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[JOHN]: With its guardian Garn, the kindly ones Anne-Lighter invade, and Countering Gilbert, also known as Fiddler's Green, under their dark influence, Lighter murders him, sealing her dissent into a raffle retribution.

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[DEREK]: Excellent stuff, I'd kind of forgotten until that moment when Fiddler's Green is talking to Lyser, that...

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[DEREK]: He had a relationship or a friendship with everybody in the house, including Lysa, she would have known who Fiddler's Green was, so the fact that she's completely agnourism and then kills him effectively, that means she is now effectively the avatar of...

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[DEREK]: the kind of ones.

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[JOHN]: Yeah, definitely.

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[JOHN]: She's going to be really annoyed when she finds out, I think.

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[DEREK]: And well, yeah, maybe potentially.

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[DEREK]: Maybe if she ever comes out from underneath this veil, this spell.

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[JOHN]: Yeah, exactly.

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[JOHN]: Exactly.

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[JOHN]: But, sure we get into our top moments from this episode, episode nine, the kindly one.

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[JOHN]: Absolutely.

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[JOHN]: Yeah, I think first of I think we need to address the the dead baby in the room, which is in fact that he's not and I do like this and do like the fact that

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[JOHN]: And in a sense, Loki does brooch this with pork, he doesn't really in the end just because of the pure deceit of it all.

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[JOHN]: And he's like, right, this isn't working, you know, I'm not staying around.

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[JOHN]: But I like the fact that Loki does kind of brooch it with him, say, you know, I guess doing the analogy with the Greek God Demesa who, you know,

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[JOHN]: He's put Daniel into the fire in order to effectively burn away the child's humanity, meaning that he will become godly, will become a god, and preparing him to be the god of the dreaming.

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[DEREK]: Yes, effectively take over and Morphismet even says now that he's burnt off as humanity will be as powerful as Morphus or even more so, which are really like,

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[DEREK]: Yeah, I was so excited to find out what John would think about this that there's one of the reasons why we were a slightly delayed in the podcast because I made John stop after up to 8.

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[DEREK]: Record our podcast thoughts and then watch episode 9 so that we could get the full impact as of those of what was happening to Daniel because you can miss it when you're binging shows like this.

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[DEREK]: A big moment like this, there's a reason why they put it at the end of one episode and don't and you think

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[DEREK]: Loki, the trickster god has murdered the the air to the dreaming.

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[DEREK]: So so you enjoy the reveal of that where he walks back into the room and sees the charge Yeah, absolutely.

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[DEREK]: Body and then just breaks it apart.

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[DEREK]: You see almost the the inner life of Daniel coming out It was just about to compliment it for the idea that you have the

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[DEREK]: the kind of life-coming aid from inside the body of others.

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[JOHN]: That was really good.

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[JOHN]: That's the thing.

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[JOHN]: It kind of looked like a gummy bear coming out of the ashes.

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[JOHN]: So when I kind of thought, no, I don't already say that because a gummy bear would melt.

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[JOHN]: And it was like a bait potato or a sweet chestnut or something like, you know, a roasted chestnut.

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[JOHN]: And but I'm glad that this was the path that they went down.

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[JOHN]: love the hindsight.

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[JOHN]: You can't actually imagine there'll be any other way that it is this reaper that is the phoenix from the ashes, but it is in a sense that.

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[JOHN]: It is this transformation using fire and to burn away his humanity so he can be a god.

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[JOHN]: And I like the fact that it's still that Daniel is

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[JOHN]: you know at the heart of this mystery investigation that brings and both Diana Constantin and Corinthian together but equally I think you know we do have to give a little shout out to Mrs. Shaw who you know whilst all the heads were reeling from the devastating news that detective Pinkerton gave to lighterhall and that she kind of questioned

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[JOHN]: whether where this campsite was that they found Daniel in was Daniel actually dead as tall you know so because she was there on the evening she feels this responsibility and whether it's that she's just cleaning on the hope that

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[JOHN]: He isn't dead, to help her feel better, but equally, she ultimately questions internally detective Pinkton and follows him around.

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[JOHN]: Unfortunately for her, Loki does notice Mrs.

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[JOHN]: to ultimately silence her and to to kill her.

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[JOHN]: And I did like, um, I did like Loki's little

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[JOHN]: passage, though, where he says, do you believe in God?

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[JOHN]: And it's like, yes, do you believe in God?

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[JOHN]: It's the plurality of dominions and power.

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[JOHN]: And ultimately, it's like he's annoyed at her that she would never think.

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[JOHN]: or know who she was talking to, I mean, the initial part of that is June know who you're talking to.

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[JOHN]: And it's just the one guard and he's like, you know, he burns us saying, I will be under obligation to know.

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[DEREK]: Yes, absolutely.

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[DEREK]: I am Loki, I am god of fire, whist and hasten, I will be under obligation to know one

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[DEREK]: I love it.

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[DEREK]: I love the idea again that it's just a little touch and we've talked about it a couple of times already we'll talk about it again with another one of the points they're on but there's a little bit of Neil Gaiman's comic book version of Sandman that comes into this moment as well you know we talked about it a couple of times that things that are on screen have multiple meanings you know we have Mrs. Shore following Loki thinking that she's found him

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[DEREK]: as the one responsible for the death of Daniel, if he's if in fact Daniel is dead, which in some circumstances will be called the smoking gun, right?

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[DEREK]: So we have Loki here pointing a gun at her and then what she looks back at the gun, the gun turns out to be a cigarette, a smoking gun literally is what he's carrying in his hands.

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[DEREK]: Love the, love the, the metaphor, I suppose, you would be the way, the way you say that love that, love that idea, love the concept of it and in this moment you still think Loki is the most duplicitous character here.

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[DEREK]: Yes, he absolutely murders this woman who really is just trying to protect a child, but he hasn't murdered the child.

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[DEREK]: or has he?

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[DEREK]: So that's the other concept that's talked about a lot throughout here.

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[DEREK]: He has killed Daniel to create the true heir to the dreaming, the true heir to Morfius.

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[DEREK]: There's constant conversations that go on from this point to age, I guess, as to whether Daniel belongs with Lyta Hall or does Daniel belong in the dreaming because that's where he was created.

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[DEREK]: conceived of the child in the dreaming.

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[DEREK]: So in a dream, she became pregnant and then gave birth in the real world.

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[JOHN]: Yes.

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[DEREK]: So there's this differentiation, a bite Daniel, let's do, as to where he belongs, as he belonged with his mother, as he belonged in the dreaming, you know.

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[DEREK]: So so has Loki just killed that part of him that belongs in the waking world and he is now ready to assume his responsibilities in the dreaming.

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[DEREK]: Is that I think that's the way we're supposed to think what happened to you.

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[JOHN]: Yeah, I guess, I mean, it's difficult to know because it's a toddler that he puts into the fire and who is, you know, Google, Google, and remains Google, Google, and, you know, after sort of having his crusty exterior sort of peeled away by Loki.

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[JOHN]: So for the light from inside.

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[JOHN]: Yeah, no exactly.

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[JOHN]: So

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[JOHN]: I think, yes, absolutely, technically, you're right, and then even during a constant time and Corinthian debate that after the rescue, exactly, about whether the baby should go to light a hall or to the dreaming.

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[JOHN]: Yeah, I mean, that's really as well in a nutshell that Loki just says to Mrs. Short because, you know, when he does ask her, well, do you believe in the plurality of dominion and power of multiple gods effectively?

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[JOHN]: She's kind of looking at him and he goes, of course, you don't.

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[JOHN]: And it's the one god now and forever, you know,

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[DEREK]: So that's the second podcast in two weeks if you use that.

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[JOHN]: But it's the only verbal reference I can do for a religious sign.

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[DEREK]: And most people won't know what that means.

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[DEREK]: But it's a sign of the cross.

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[DEREK]: Yes, yes.

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[JOHN]: So that you make over if you're chest effect.

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[DEREK]: Yes.

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[DEREK]: Check it out.

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[JOHN]: The bottom.

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[JOHN]: You're right and left.

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[JOHN]: You know?

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[DEREK]: excellent but it's a really interesting kind of capper on the story I thought and so glad I'm glad you enjoyed the big reveal there but it does lead to the breaking of of Loki and Pock's relationship you know you kind of guess that at some point they would break they're both tricksters they are both manipulative of everybody around them the point from Pock here is that manipulator anybody else but why did you need to manipulate me why did you need to not tell me

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[DEREK]: and Loki just again kind of reiterating, I would say, the idea that he's not beholden to anybody, so he can do whatever he wants to.

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[DEREK]: He's not going to be beholden to Pock either, so he tells Pock to stay and they'll talk and they'll sort out the whole situation, but Pock leaves.

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[DEREK]: I love the little

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[DEREK]: note a little later on when he's sitting at the bar and Joanna walks in and says and is this seat taken and he said well if he's not down here now he's not coming so Puck was actually in the bar, not scumbacter fairy he's in the bar waiting for Loki to run after and Loki never did so the relationship is broken and he leaves.

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[JOHN]: Well I like the fact that upstairs you have Loki going, oh, he'll be back soon.

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[JOHN]: Speaking to Daniel.

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[JOHN]: So again, it's just that kind of notion of Loki and in a sense, put being way too invested in themselves on their own sense of ego.

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[JOHN]: Yes.

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[JOHN]: To think that they should be the one that heads back upstairs after being at the bar just to cool down, or

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[JOHN]: putting Daniel down to sleep and then deciding to try and contact and find the person who's just left the apartment.

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[DEREK]: Yes, neither the wrong, neither the Russian.

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[DEREK]: Exactly.

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[DEREK]: So, yeah.

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[DEREK]: Just like every argument we've ever had done.

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[JOHN]: It is a broken relationship there.

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[DEREK]: Well, yes, because they don't come back together, neither of them are a bigger man, both them expect the other one to repolute us.

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[DEREK]: Yes.

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[DEREK]: that never happens.

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[DEREK]: Somebody has to apologize eventually.

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[JOHN]: Indeed.

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[JOHN]: Indeed.

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[DEREK]: You mentioned two of the characters there, John, let's move on to where our next point there, Joanna Constantin, and the new Corinthian Corinthians II, we saw him started to be created at the end of last episode, and we see him fully created at this episode in a brand new way.

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[DEREK]: What do you think of Corinthian II, John?

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[JOHN]: And I love Corinthian too, and I like his kind of softer sides to be honest here, and more than anything else, I love the Corinthian here with Joanna Konsentine, and I love this.

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[JOHN]: duo out on investigation being asked by Morpheus to go into the Waking World to bring Daniel Hall back to the Dreaming.

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[JOHN]: The relationship was really good.

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[JOHN]: They're back and forth between each other.

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[JOHN]: Really nice moments where like whether it's on the double deck of Boss.

21:14.415 --> 21:20.658
[JOHN]: Or it's at the bar where Corinthian is pretending that they're newly wedged.

21:20.838 --> 21:41.887
[JOHN]: In effect, he's doing this ramblings on love as a newly married couple, whilst you've got to put the drowning his sorrows because of love, but it's about whether love actually exists, whether it can be forever, or whether it's...

21:42.987 --> 21:49.432
[JOHN]: easier as book would say that will I fall in love for the stranger easier than any long term.

21:49.572 --> 21:57.957
[JOHN]: Yeah, so this kind of treaties and ramblings on love and I just like the fact that Joanna is kind of like all the way through it.

21:58.958 --> 22:02.500
[JOHN]: There is this sense of okay.

22:04.201 --> 22:04.882
[JOHN]: What am I to it?

22:04.962 --> 22:06.083
[JOHN]: It did feel like this

22:08.764 --> 22:26.755
[JOHN]: like lethal weapon or Beverly Hills cop kind of the the buddy cop type of the element where it's like just you know she's the kind of more sober one of them with that and that's something that's very different from Corinthian in season one.

22:26.795 --> 22:27.555
[JOHN]: I loved it.

22:27.616 --> 22:31.678
[JOHN]: I loved their their back and forth and this relationship.

22:31.798 --> 22:40.027
[DEREK]: Yeah, and I think it's teed up when Morpheus first introduces Joanna to the Corinthian to and is telling her he's holy new, he is a new body.

22:40.047 --> 22:45.552
[DEREK]: He has some memories of his past, but not all of them, and he is new, and needs to tell peer.

22:45.592 --> 22:52.479
[DEREK]: So, when he's talking about love and talking about being in love with her, and he is, he is talking about, you know, falling in love with her.

22:53.720 --> 22:56.881
[DEREK]: She's the heavily experienced person who's had really bad relationships.

22:56.921 --> 23:08.526
[DEREK]: Remember from the first time we saw this character She'd left her girlfriend and had a really bad Time after that with with her girlfriend She had breakup after breakup.

23:08.586 --> 23:15.188
[DEREK]: She's always had problems in relationships and here's this brand new-born who is going I'm in love with you

23:15.568 --> 23:39.158
[DEREK]: And it's just a matter whether you love me back or it doesn't matter whether we're we fall in love forever or for just a day it's still love and she's kind of going from the other side as the as the much more experienced person she's looking at him going with that isn't love and only last for a day and he's trying to explain to all that you know that that's just your opinion as you say overpoke who's sitting in between the two of them and I love the reveal during the conversation he's kind of

23:39.818 --> 23:41.958
[DEREK]: Really up for the the banter between the two of them.

23:41.978 --> 24:01.462
[DEREK]: These brand new newlyweds and then reveals he actually knows exactly who Corinthian is because he says And you got all that from just eating eyeballs So he reveals you know exactly who Corinthian is he doesn't know John Constantine and Tainers, but he says Yes, yes, yes, you know so by reputation, but he knows who Corinthian is just by the look of them.

24:01.542 --> 24:05.803
[JOHN]: So um, well, absolutely and I mean I think I mean even just the fact that

24:06.343 --> 24:17.714
[JOHN]: Joanna is holding and you know a strong glass of whiskey and Corinthians there with his martini with the olive in in the cocktail glass I just like that.

24:17.854 --> 24:31.746
[JOHN]: I mean there is that great moment where Joanna is trying to call Oden to find Loki so she's gone and got herself a bottle of meat and she got packet of cigarettes and some matches and but Corinthians like

24:32.849 --> 24:37.312
[JOHN]: No, we insist that she doesn't involve her because that's what Dream has been saying.

24:37.753 --> 24:43.757
[JOHN]: Joanna is like, you're a moral effing compass, not like the last Corinthians in at all.

24:45.318 --> 24:47.960
[JOHN]: But I do like the in a sense she calls out in anyway.

24:48.540 --> 24:53.063
[JOHN]: I think just by breaking the the need.

24:53.203 --> 24:56.165
[DEREK]: Well, she's already said the spell effectively when he tries to stop her.

24:56.245 --> 24:59.248
[DEREK]: So she's already gone ahead with what she wants to do even though.

25:00.088 --> 25:03.229
[DEREK]: She doesn't realize that this may cause problems for Morfius.

25:04.929 --> 25:12.832
[DEREK]: Morfius had freed Loki and had pushed an image in his place, which is why Odin didn't know that Loki was freed, as we know from earlier on in the season.

25:13.752 --> 25:16.653
[DEREK]: But Morfius didn't even explain that to Joanna, he just kind of said, look, don't do it.

25:17.213 --> 25:18.114
[DEREK]: We needed to find Loki.

25:18.214 --> 25:18.834
[DEREK]: That's the plan.

25:18.894 --> 25:19.855
[DEREK]: Go find Daniel.

25:19.895 --> 25:20.996
[DEREK]: That's your job, basically.

25:21.016 --> 25:23.017
[DEREK]: But she kind of kind of intervenes that.

25:23.418 --> 25:26.180
[DEREK]: I do think that Bartlemade was like a bottle of Budweiser.

25:26.200 --> 25:32.464
[DEREK]: I don't think it was when when Odin eventually does arrive after being called.

25:32.544 --> 25:34.806
[DEREK]: He says, that's the worst being of that.

25:35.046 --> 25:35.947
[DEREK]: Absolutely.

25:36.047 --> 25:36.808
[DEREK]: Absolutely.

25:36.908 --> 25:42.051
[DEREK]: I think it's just the cheap bottle of Bartlemade that she's got and her marble lights.

25:42.292 --> 25:42.472
[DEREK]: Yeah.

25:42.512 --> 25:42.692
[DEREK]: Yeah.

25:43.012 --> 25:47.693
[JOHN]: I mean, but I like that and I thought that was actually really cool just to fire trail heading off.

25:47.933 --> 25:48.193
[JOHN]: It's cool.

25:48.353 --> 25:56.916
[JOHN]: And I like the fact that they come to Mrs. Sean Krenthin, you know, uses her eyes, cuts her eyes out.

25:56.996 --> 26:00.597
[JOHN]: And like, I do like that John has gone, well, no, no, stop doing that.

26:00.617 --> 26:04.158
[JOHN]: I thought you were supposed to be good now, you know, and he goes, but...

26:04.778 --> 26:07.339
[JOHN]: No current thing would have killed them and then taken their eyes.

26:07.359 --> 26:08.659
[JOHN]: All right, she's already dead.

26:08.679 --> 26:12.240
[JOHN]: She doesn't need to use the spell that you're going to like that.

26:12.280 --> 26:14.780
[JOHN]: He puts it in Mrs. Shaw's eyes.

26:14.800 --> 26:28.583
[JOHN]: It absolutely finds where Loki is, but also, you know, that you find just that little bit of backstory from Mrs. Shaw, given how brutal her death was and at the really

26:31.126 --> 26:37.309
[JOHN]: emotionally cold Loki that she had a good life and a happy life.

26:37.770 --> 26:44.113
[JOHN]: So that was really good and he's telling Joanna that, but ultimately that's what brings them to the bar.

26:44.213 --> 26:47.595
[JOHN]: It's what then that conversation with pork leeds.

26:48.315 --> 27:04.603
[JOHN]: to him giving the card key for the room and they go up and again Loki trying to use the same old trick that they pulled on a puck by pretending to be more fierce and you have current thing going no it's in the eyes it's not him I saw.

27:05.003 --> 27:23.550
[DEREK]: Yes, and that's really important that probably comes across better in the comic books or would come across better in the comic books because every time you see or if you see He's got a universal as eyeballs, so he we as the reader every time we see him his eyes look different to any other character on the page Where's in the show they haven't chosen to do that.

27:23.670 --> 27:27.871
[DEREK]: So yeah, but that particular line would be a reference to the fact that you can instantly tell

27:29.652 --> 27:34.296
[DEREK]: Morpheus because his eyeballs are different than anybody else in the universe, so that's the point.

27:34.356 --> 27:44.425
[DEREK]: But, um, yes, it's okay that Loki does this once with Corinthian because, as we say, Corinthian is newborn, so a bit easily more easily taken in.

27:44.485 --> 27:51.991
[DEREK]: Joanna isn't taken in, but the fact that this person is pretending to be Morpheus, she says if it's more, if it's more obvious, he would allow us to go and check on Daniel.

27:52.011 --> 27:53.192
[DEREK]: Um, so she,

27:54.293 --> 28:00.459
[DEREK]: Suspects that it isn't, and then goes out of the room, and that's when Corinthian realizes that it isn't more fiasc.

28:00.779 --> 28:06.485
[DEREK]: And then he tries to change into Joanna on the floor, even though Joanna's in the room.

28:06.565 --> 28:08.286
[DEREK]: So that's not gonna work either.

28:08.326 --> 28:11.569
[DEREK]: So I think it actually makes Loki look a bit more stupid then

28:12.430 --> 28:13.751
[DEREK]: he should look here.

28:14.191 --> 28:17.893
[DEREK]: Like he doesn't even get away from Corinthian hide behind the sofa and then come back here.

28:17.913 --> 28:18.213
[DEREK]: There's joy.

28:18.233 --> 28:24.637
[JOHN]: But then turns into Corinthian and Corinthian says at least give me some benefit that I know who I am.

28:25.397 --> 28:28.499
[DEREK]: Maybe it's just he doesn't have eyeballs, teeth for eyes as what he has.

28:28.599 --> 28:30.600
[DEREK]: So maybe he just can't see the person in front of him.

28:30.660 --> 28:35.023
[DEREK]: So it's just the voice he's supposed to be supposed to be tricked by.

28:35.243 --> 28:36.744
[DEREK]: But it doesn't work anyway.

28:37.544 --> 28:38.525
[DEREK]: And Odin

28:39.365 --> 28:44.433
[DEREK]: And Thor arrived to take back Loki to his eternal present once again.

28:44.473 --> 28:47.077
[JOHN]: Yeah, I mean, that was quite a quick ending for Loki here.

28:47.117 --> 28:50.061
[JOHN]: I thought there would be a bit more to it.

28:50.101 --> 28:54.628
[JOHN]: And as I'll say, there won't be in the coming episodes that remain potentially, but even...

28:55.609 --> 29:13.622
[JOHN]: Now I'm questioning how the whole lighter hull and the kind of ones is going to go because I would kind of be assuming at this moment that Loki has got a come-up and given he's actually responsible for the disappearance of Daniel Hall.

29:14.402 --> 29:24.590
[JOHN]: You could argue, yes, maybe is death as of the humanity, but it'll be interesting now, just to see how that plays.

29:25.111 --> 29:25.551
[DEREK]: Yeah.

29:25.571 --> 29:31.236
[JOHN]: I mean, it's only given the ending here that we get, which is pretty brutal at least for Fiddler's green.

29:31.376 --> 29:36.380
[JOHN]: So, I'm interested to see how it plays out, purely to see if we get Loki again.

29:37.429 --> 29:39.270
[DEREK]: Yeah, I wouldn't hold that hope for Loki.

29:39.290 --> 29:39.770
[DEREK]: Now, I don't know.

29:39.790 --> 29:52.075
[DEREK]: I haven't watched the rest of the season, but what has happened is that Loki has achieved the purpose for the storyline, which is he has created the vessel for the future Lord of the Dreaming.

29:53.436 --> 29:55.618
[DEREK]: will see how that plays out for the rest of the season.

29:56.499 --> 30:02.525
[DEREK]: But I think Loki's part in the story is probably done as he's being returned, as I said to his eternal present.

30:02.605 --> 30:06.789
[DEREK]: It just made me laugh, because we were watching it at the other night, taking our final notes for us.

30:07.590 --> 30:14.717
[DEREK]: And it did remind me that the last time we saw Loki in the Marvel Universe, he is also in a source of eternal present holding together the universe.

30:14.817 --> 30:14.957
[DEREK]: And so

30:17.380 --> 30:24.221
[DEREK]: Look, he will always end off going into an eternal prison for our all-time forever, no possibility of escape, and then he may appear again.

30:24.961 --> 30:38.664
[DEREK]: I just think, because this again is a condensed version of the Sanman books which ran for many, many years and could have run for five seasons on Netflix, they may have just finished Lucky Story here.

30:38.704 --> 30:40.904
[DEREK]: I'm sure he's off the table basis.

30:41.024 --> 30:43.705
[JOHN]: I think that's the worry for me is that they have done that.

30:46.762 --> 30:48.163
[JOHN]: maybe it plays out like that.

30:48.263 --> 30:50.204
[JOHN]: Yeah, ultimately Loki gets away with it.

30:50.244 --> 31:00.069
[JOHN]: So at this moment in time, it just feels more of a truncated ending for Loki that ultimately Thor and Ogion come in, put him over the shoulder.

31:00.169 --> 31:11.135
[JOHN]: You know, that there's hugely powerful God, but obviously because they are gods as well, it's like dealing with someone else and put it, Thor puts him over his shoulder and Ogion basically says,

31:12.838 --> 31:14.300
[JOHN]: You know, there's no harm done.

31:14.580 --> 31:17.263
[JOHN]: You can tell that you'll master Morpheus.

31:17.503 --> 31:24.490
[JOHN]: Yes, that, you know, while we know he, you know, has had his hand in this escape, he bare him, no ill will.

31:24.670 --> 31:26.292
[JOHN]: And he's always welcoming as guards.

31:26.512 --> 31:31.898
[JOHN]: And so it just felt very truncated, very quick, very abrupt given

31:34.040 --> 31:38.801
[JOHN]: the severity, the magnitude, the weight of what Loki has done here.

31:39.021 --> 31:52.385
[DEREK]: Yes, but if you don't see him again, I would kind of call back to Loki shape shifting into another person while he was in the dreaming because of how bad his experience was in his eternal prison.

31:52.825 --> 31:54.146
[DEREK]: It's not just him sitting in a cell.

31:54.186 --> 31:56.486
[DEREK]: He is being tortured in this eternal.

31:57.346 --> 31:59.907
[DEREK]: In eternal way, it to the point where he was willing to

32:03.768 --> 32:05.209
[DEREK]: Now he's being brought back there.

32:05.229 --> 32:06.470
[DEREK]: He's not being brought back to ask out.

32:06.490 --> 32:07.932
[DEREK]: He's being brought back to his prison.

32:08.692 --> 32:10.193
[DEREK]: So he is being going to be punished.

32:10.894 --> 32:15.397
[DEREK]: We may not see it on screen, but he is being punished pretty severely for everything that he's done.

32:15.457 --> 32:19.240
[DEREK]: Not just this particular issue or this particular challenge.

32:19.280 --> 32:22.343
[DEREK]: So yeah, but I like that he gets a little.

32:22.983 --> 32:32.197
[DEREK]: a little dig in on his way at the door when he shakes his head and that the door's wife has a mole on the inner thigh because she allowed him to lick it once.

32:32.417 --> 32:34.280
[DEREK]: Yes, exactly.

32:34.300 --> 32:34.901
[DEREK]: Good old lucky.

32:35.101 --> 32:35.862
[JOHN]: But it's really good.

32:35.882 --> 32:37.224
[JOHN]: I have to say for me

32:37.965 --> 32:43.127
[JOHN]: The Corinthian and Diana Constantin here was the highlight of this episode.

32:43.307 --> 32:44.587
[JOHN]: Absolutely, we loved it.

32:45.047 --> 32:54.611
[JOHN]: Love the two of them, hunting down Loki and dealing with one and all they, it was just really playful and excellent.

32:54.911 --> 33:00.133
[DEREK]: Absolutely, and does end with a little bit of a relationship starting, we talked about the

33:01.213 --> 33:04.856
[DEREK]: love of the Corinthian to Joanna at the bar.

33:04.876 --> 33:09.640
[DEREK]: It seems quite quick, but you know, again, he's willing to fall in love quickly as kind of the point.

33:10.501 --> 33:15.144
[DEREK]: And we have Joanna saying no to him when he says, can we see each other again?

33:15.344 --> 33:17.726
[DEREK]: She pushes him away and says, I don't think that's a good idea.

33:19.508 --> 33:29.291
[DEREK]: Now, I feel like they had to do a little bit of underlining about what the meaning of this was, again, because it's running through something really quickly here, and this is her reward.

33:29.351 --> 33:35.032
[DEREK]: This is her boon, her meeting with the Corinthian someone that actually is a very good match for her.

33:35.932 --> 33:38.053
[DEREK]: She gets on really well with, she's obviously

33:39.714 --> 34:02.135
[DEREK]: intrigued by who this version of Corinthians, and her saying no is all an echo of the relationship of Lady Joanna Constantin and Orfius, where she fell for Orfius and his song, and even though he was just ahead, wanted to see him again, and he refused her seeing him, and she eventually was buried under the island, alongside Orfius.

34:02.716 --> 34:03.957
[DEREK]: If you remember back to when when

34:06.238 --> 34:09.019
[DEREK]: Joanna was given the diary of Lady Konstantin.

34:09.939 --> 34:14.420
[DEREK]: She asks, more fierce after reading and hang out a second, you gave her the love of her life.

34:14.460 --> 34:15.820
[DEREK]: You give me a diary.

34:16.301 --> 34:18.081
[DEREK]: Well, this is actually what she was given.

34:18.141 --> 34:22.842
[DEREK]: She was given the connection with Corinthian and chose not to act on, which is interesting.

34:23.002 --> 34:24.263
[JOHN]: Yeah, that's great.

34:24.403 --> 34:26.243
[DEREK]: Yeah, that's a nice, that's a nice, yeah, exactly.

34:26.363 --> 34:27.383
[JOHN]: Yeah, it's really, really good.

34:27.943 --> 34:28.124
[DEREK]: Cool.

34:29.104 --> 34:32.905
[JOHN]: And shall we move on to multiple destinies

34:34.917 --> 34:45.165
[JOHN]: Just a slight glimmer of hope here for Old Lord DREAMer, Lord Morpheus.

34:45.545 --> 34:50.830
[JOHN]: I do like the Vajzé, he's kind of self-inflicted lockdown in my garden.

34:51.450 --> 34:58.296
[JOHN]: In the dreaming, I do like that Lucien is trying to put him to use here to work on some

35:00.297 --> 35:05.178
[JOHN]: Dream ledgers that he's not really bothered about, but also so on board.

35:05.638 --> 35:12.340
[JOHN]: But just to get him working on an ongoing dispute between the night of clouds and the body politic.

35:13.460 --> 35:16.161
[JOHN]: So I like that he is kind of, you know,

35:25.598 --> 35:31.579
[DEREK]: Well, John, I know we don't have kids, but do you remember when you were like this and your mom was dealing with you like this?

35:31.639 --> 35:31.879
[DEREK]: Yes.

35:32.319 --> 35:34.240
[DEREK]: I love that it's Lucian and her library.

35:34.420 --> 35:39.001
[DEREK]: She's getting all over work done and more pieces in the same room as you're going.

35:39.021 --> 35:41.821
[DEREK]: I'm looking for a book, nothing to do.

35:43.182 --> 35:44.582
[DEREK]: She's going, there's loads to do.

35:44.642 --> 35:45.482
[DEREK]: You're at the boss here.

35:45.502 --> 35:46.442
[DEREK]: You have to sign documents.

35:46.462 --> 35:49.343
[DEREK]: You have to review everything and he's like, Oh, I don't want to do any of that.

35:50.503 --> 35:54.727
[DEREK]: you know, but he does eventually get outside.

35:54.967 --> 36:00.711
[DEREK]: She does say to him, again, another wonderfully written segment here.

36:00.891 --> 36:03.934
[DEREK]: She says to him, now you're like everybody else.

36:04.154 --> 36:05.635
[DEREK]: Yes, you know, you're going to die.

36:05.715 --> 36:06.576
[DEREK]: We all know that.

36:06.636 --> 36:15.543
[DEREK]: And now you have to live your life like every single one of us that knows we will die eventually, which is you choose to live how you want to live the life that you're a given.

36:16.543 --> 36:21.804
[DEREK]: Death has set it on many, many occasions, this phrase that will keep coming up all the way to the end of the series.

36:22.044 --> 36:24.145
[DEREK]: Everybody gets the time they get and that's it.

36:24.485 --> 36:26.065
[DEREK]: Nobody gets more than the time they get.

36:26.305 --> 36:32.446
[JOHN]: And even the destruction had sort of similar messages around just living the best life.

36:32.866 --> 36:35.107
[JOHN]: Also that, you know, he's changed.

36:35.247 --> 36:35.847
[JOHN]: Yes.

36:36.087 --> 36:39.648
[JOHN]: And so on, and we do get an echo of that here from Fiddler's Green.

36:39.668 --> 36:40.208
[JOHN]: Yes, we do.

36:40.668 --> 36:41.468
[JOHN]: What he says, you know,

36:42.388 --> 37:01.801
[JOHN]: Yes, you're kind of at the same, but actually, despite all that, you're saying no to this and no to that, but everything else about you has changed before, now you are always governed by your duties, but now you've changed and when one of the endless changes, that changes everything.

37:01.821 --> 37:02.401
[JOHN]: Absolutely.

37:02.742 --> 37:05.183
[JOHN]: Again, what does that mean in this?

37:06.384 --> 37:10.306
[JOHN]: situation is it for a positive or for a negative?

37:10.626 --> 37:13.047
[JOHN]: Only time will tell as we move forward.

37:13.127 --> 37:13.567
[DEREK]: Exactly.

37:13.587 --> 37:14.088
[DEREK]: Exactly.

37:14.168 --> 37:15.728
[DEREK]: And could be either, yes, absolutely.

37:15.788 --> 37:20.190
[JOHN]: But equally then we have delirium going to destiny.

37:20.330 --> 37:27.574
[JOHN]: I love these two together and just the kind of role of the eyes and then all of the sudden destiny splits into two.

37:28.354 --> 37:32.677
[JOHN]: and you have a delirium getting very intrigued by this.

37:32.737 --> 37:48.687
[JOHN]: You only went there to ask for help to find Barnabas, the Docky, and maybe even to ask about whether she could go and interrupts a nori dream again to go on an adventure because last time they did that, it was really, really good.

37:49.327 --> 38:14.906
[DEREK]: I love how this is all playing out in the dialogue, you know, we're delirium saying things, the people around who are reacting to what she's saying, so she even mentions Barnabas, the dog that talks quite like destiny, but it can explain things better to her, and she says he says intelligent things like, you know, I will, I will only deal with you when you realize that gravity is not as gestion, it's a law.

38:15.947 --> 38:16.568
[DEREK]: That kind of thing.

38:16.728 --> 38:21.552
[DEREK]: I wish Barnabas was here, so he could explain what you've just said to me in terms I can understand.

38:21.612 --> 38:29.538
[DEREK]: And then when she's talking to Tuck it to Morifius and says to him about we had such a great time in the last adventure.

38:29.578 --> 38:31.300
[DEREK]: He just kind of says, did we?

38:32.020 --> 38:32.621
[DEREK]: Exactly.

38:32.641 --> 38:33.001
[DEREK]: I love that.

38:33.061 --> 38:33.481
[JOHN]: I do.

38:33.982 --> 38:36.824
[JOHN]: It's like, I like it as well with destiny.

38:37.124 --> 38:41.568
[JOHN]: It's kind of really searching for a quest.

38:42.049 --> 38:43.229
[JOHN]: And destiny is like,

38:44.011 --> 38:46.471
[JOHN]: If you go on that quest, to find a dog,

38:47.882 --> 38:52.464
[JOHN]: then you will find a dark, the dark, and also other things.

38:53.304 --> 38:56.025
[JOHN]: And she's like, shall I bring dream?

38:56.285 --> 39:04.768
[JOHN]: He's been dancing, it's obvious, you know, and ultimately with dream in his own head in the dreaming delirium arrives.

39:04.828 --> 39:13.411
[JOHN]: And again, more little snippets here, where, yes, she tells more of us about the multiple destinies, which really gets him looking quite hopeful.

39:14.011 --> 39:22.141
[DEREK]: Well, yes, because all of a sudden, the thing that destiny told him has come to life, destiny said to him, I can't see your future.

39:22.461 --> 39:26.285
[DEREK]: It's not part of this, your future is now to face not to destiny.

39:26.385 --> 39:31.251
[DEREK]: So this is another play on that idea.

39:31.772 --> 39:33.313
[DEREK]: Destiny is just one path.

39:33.914 --> 39:37.996
[DEREK]: but it's not necessarily the only part that will get you to your destiny as opposed.

39:38.476 --> 39:45.919
[DEREK]: And so him seeing there's multiple destinies from this conversation with delirium, suddenly gives him hope.

39:46.019 --> 39:49.141
[DEREK]: He's suddenly smiles and I think it may be one of the first times

39:49.921 --> 39:51.522
[DEREK]: except for some of the times of the sister death.

39:51.782 --> 39:53.804
[DEREK]: It's one of the first times you've seen more if you smile.

39:53.824 --> 39:54.865
[DEREK]: Absolutely.

39:55.105 --> 40:06.093
[JOHN]: I think the other thing with Delirium, while she's there with Dream, you know, she just say, our existence deforms the universe around us and Dream says, do you mean the existence defines the universe around us?

40:06.133 --> 40:08.454
[JOHN]: And she goes, no, I mean deforms.

40:08.635 --> 40:11.076
[JOHN]: I know more than people think I do.

40:11.116 --> 40:13.098
[JOHN]: You have her talking about that

40:14.732 --> 40:31.015
[JOHN]: Destiny is not linear in all cases, they can be bendy and curvy, and I do like how this complexity around that simple notion of a destiny or being faded is really, really good.

40:31.035 --> 40:34.256
[JOHN]: And again, this deals with agency as well.

40:34.316 --> 40:39.517
[JOHN]: So, you know, this notion that, you know, back in the day, it would be, you know, your place

40:45.118 --> 40:49.280
[JOHN]: child labor, or women, or whatever it might be.

40:50.520 --> 40:55.082
[JOHN]: And this is this notion that it doesn't have to be like that.

40:55.202 --> 41:03.786
[JOHN]: There are ways around it, ways through it, and agency for the people involved, which is kind of interesting.

41:03.826 --> 41:06.167
[JOHN]: I like how that feeds in as well to this

41:07.127 --> 41:09.509
[JOHN]: feeling of hope, the dream as well.

41:09.810 --> 41:14.234
[DEREK]: That's been Roddenbury, one said, the infinite universe is infinite decimates, infinite outcomes.

41:14.274 --> 41:26.465
[DEREK]: Yeah, so that's the realization that more fish has just had, you know, the guiding from Lucien, the guidance again from Fiddler's greed and now his sister coming back in talking about the fact that

41:26.965 --> 41:32.029
[DEREK]: quite literally there are now multiple destinies, multiple possibilities, multiple outcomes.

41:32.570 --> 41:44.460
[DEREK]: All of those things combined together in Morpheus's mind and suddenly he's going, wow, I didn't even think there could be anything more than the linearity that I've experienced so far, and told him on the death list from the kindly ones.

41:44.740 --> 41:49.945
[DEREK]: And remember when he went to the kindly ones, I said, we're not gonna come out but come after you until it's time to come after you.

41:50.605 --> 42:01.895
[JOHN]: I will absolutely, but interestingly, the thing he doesn't see is Destiny's number reducing I guess, and coming back down, and you have Destiny saying the path is set.

42:02.095 --> 42:06.859
[DEREK]: I'll absolutely, and that happens because of really the return of Puck to Ferry.

42:07.060 --> 42:07.240
[DEREK]: Yep.

42:07.860 --> 42:13.245
[DEREK]: And what's happening with Claricon and with Lulu and Titania?

42:13.265 --> 42:14.086
[DEREK]: Titania, yes.

42:14.606 --> 42:16.188
[DEREK]: So, uh, let's talk quickly about that.

42:16.488 --> 42:20.253
[DEREK]: Um, we see new that getting up in the morning, uh, still with the glamour honor.

42:20.353 --> 42:25.319
[DEREK]: And for the first time I realize what it is about it, that makes me laugh when she's in fairy genre.

42:25.339 --> 42:30.084
[DEREK]: Um, you live in Ireland, you've lived in Ireland for many years now, so you'll, you'll know this, but, um,

42:30.865 --> 42:35.710
[DEREK]: Do you know the kids to do Irish dancing for professional Irish dancing over here?

42:36.550 --> 42:42.616
[DEREK]: We have them dressed up, they're... they're similarly dressed up to, I would say, pageant girls in America.

42:43.137 --> 42:52.445
[DEREK]: When they do Irish dancing, it's just an excess of makeup for someone so young and excessively starched dress for someone so young.

42:52.766 --> 42:55.068
[DEREK]: And you see Nule looking at yourself in the mirror with her.

42:55.688 --> 42:59.131
[DEREK]: her corals in her hair and she's trying to straighten the mate, can't straighten them.

42:59.431 --> 43:04.755
[DEREK]: So she looks to me and they're probably combined with her accent being Irish when she's when she doesn't have the glamor on.

43:05.435 --> 43:12.661
[DEREK]: She really looks like a girl who's been put into an Irish dancing costume and wants to get out of it as quick as possible.

43:12.741 --> 43:13.541
[DEREK]: That's what was reminding me of.

43:13.821 --> 43:21.427
[DEREK]: But she goes to Clarke and after he's completed once again another orangie with the hundreds of people or lots of people and lots of alcohol.

43:21.867 --> 43:33.093
[DEREK]: And did you see if going around looking for an empty bottle or for a full bottle, excuse me, and then finds a glass, and one person who's fallen asleep and takes the glass off them, so he can drink some more before he goes out for cocktails with the Queen.

43:33.734 --> 43:38.256
[DEREK]: But she explains to him what her necklaces is that it's actually a gift from Morpheus.

43:38.476 --> 43:42.919
[DEREK]: She's seen the Queen look at it, but can't give it over because it was a gift from Morpheus.

43:43.339 --> 43:45.340
[DEREK]: In case she ever needed to summon him.

43:45.760 --> 43:52.043
[DEREK]: So, and that was her boon for living in the dreaming and going back to fairy when he asked her to.

43:52.183 --> 43:57.126
[DEREK]: So, Titania learns about that quite quickly, from Clirka.

43:57.546 --> 43:58.347
[JOHN]: Yeah, absolutely.

43:58.407 --> 44:04.870
[JOHN]: I mean, again, it's the persistence of Nula for me wanting to help assist

44:06.673 --> 44:11.597
[JOHN]: rescue Lord Morpheus, you know, after what he's done.

44:12.518 --> 44:19.144
[JOHN]: But ultimately, it's the devilry, or the mischief that lurks in Ferry.

44:19.344 --> 44:25.349
[JOHN]: Well, and but the information that comes to Ferry through

44:28.011 --> 44:44.837
[JOHN]: Loki has an effect set in motion, what he intended, and that Lord Morpheus is in danger, and with the necklace missing, and in the hands of Titania, which ultimately means that dream is pulled from the dreaming

44:45.817 --> 44:53.320
[JOHN]: in order to satisfy Titania and knew that in order to warn him that the kindly ones are coming.

44:54.000 --> 45:10.046
[JOHN]: But do the worst thing that they could possibly do is remove him from the dreaming where he now becomes vulnerable but also so does the dreaming and this you know this is kind of the

45:12.463 --> 45:29.355
[DEREK]: the drop really here because then we see lighter as the weapon of the kind of ones entering into the dreaming and yes it not ending up very well for Fiddler's green.

45:29.935 --> 45:31.235
[DEREK]: Well, absolutely, absolutely.

45:31.275 --> 45:38.897
[DEREK]: Yeah, that was going to be just the final point on the episode was a base about Lysa here, but yeah, just just a reasserase.

45:38.917 --> 45:47.680
[DEREK]: Yeah, that moment when more fierce realises not only has he just been dragged out of the dreaming by the wrong person, Titania,

45:49.120 --> 45:53.064
[DEREK]: and a little wooden to call them, unless you really needed help, but he has to come.

45:53.224 --> 45:54.005
[DEREK]: That was the, yeah.

45:54.205 --> 45:58.809
[DEREK]: That was what the pendant was imbued with was the power to call him.

45:58.909 --> 46:04.334
[DEREK]: So, that's dragged him out and made the dreaming completely unsafe again.

46:04.354 --> 46:09.118
[DEREK]: So, he had been effectively told if he stayed in the dreaming, then nothing would happen to him.

46:10.038 --> 46:13.522
[DEREK]: He wouldn't face the retribution of the kind at once.

46:13.602 --> 46:13.742
[DEREK]: Yeah.

46:14.242 --> 46:27.355
[DEREK]: Um, but yeah, let's quickly talk about talk about light on how she got to this point as about because we see her at the beginning of the episode with that photograph that, uh, Loki, the given to her of the of what she believed was, um, was Daniel dead.

46:27.375 --> 46:30.298
[DEREK]: Um, and it's Mad Hetty that comes to her.

46:30.318 --> 46:31.860
[DEREK]: I told her to watch it for Mad Hetty.

46:31.900 --> 46:33.542
[DEREK]: She was, uh, she was going to be her end somewhere.

46:33.562 --> 46:35.263
[JOHN]: I really, really liked this.

46:35.604 --> 46:37.065
[JOHN]: I liked her putting,

46:38.166 --> 47:04.587
[JOHN]: I have a lighter in the hexden, the chance of the presentation with the candles and I thought it was really interesting when you said that Claire Higgins was the actress who plays Hettie and that she had been in Hellraiser as well because it there was something about that whole ceremony that was really, really good where she sends Hippolyta effectively to the kindly ones here

47:04.727 --> 47:17.936
[DEREK]: Yeah, it's been a long time for a lot of people, since the Mayiv scene held Razor, but she was the main catalyst in, in, in, her Razor one and came back in her Razor two, but she is the reason why Pinn had came to her.

47:18.096 --> 47:21.898
[DEREK]: She was the one that was, was doing the magic effectively.

47:21.958 --> 47:23.799
[DEREK]: So having her here as Madhati,

47:25.040 --> 47:30.965
[DEREK]: creating this magic protection spell over lighter, which leads her to go to the kindly ones.

47:31.605 --> 47:37.730
[DEREK]: I thought that was fantastic and you can tell how well it works, you know, she's so good for the scenes.

47:38.231 --> 47:43.175
[DEREK]: And off goes lighter to the kindly ones, who she calls John, the Furious.

47:43.235 --> 47:43.915
[DEREK]: Furious.

47:44.316 --> 47:45.917
[DEREK]: I love the response from them.

47:45.997 --> 47:46.958
[DEREK]: I love the response.

47:46.998 --> 47:49.480
[DEREK]: That is a word that people use for women like us.

47:49.560 --> 47:52.963
[DEREK]: We are not Furious unless there is a need to be Furious.

47:53.623 --> 47:54.864
[DEREK]: Well, that's it.

47:55.024 --> 48:01.831
[JOHN]: And I think the piss passive between the the fates, the kindly ones are really, really good.

48:02.051 --> 48:12.781
[JOHN]: And I mean, ultimately, you know, they almost tell her, well, when she says, the dream king killed my son and they said, but that's not a blood.

48:13.482 --> 48:17.245
[DEREK]: Killing this absolutely that's not family, but So your family blood.

48:17.285 --> 48:18.786
[DEREK]: Yeah, that's not the family blood.

48:18.826 --> 48:24.091
[DEREK]: He cannot be punished for that He can only be punished if he killed his son He has killed his son.

48:24.191 --> 48:24.611
[DEREK]: Exactly.

48:24.651 --> 48:25.992
[JOHN]: So I like that.

48:26.012 --> 48:36.701
[JOHN]: It even comes back to When they're behind it in the the dreaming and she Runs her sword through fiddle his green to kill him

48:36.921 --> 48:51.580
[JOHN]: And you have filled this green before that kind of saying well you shouldn't be here and they're kind of like well we should and because your master is no longer here and and they say we are performing our function this.

48:52.101 --> 48:57.002
[JOHN]: So, I mean, to then, this is like working through the paperwork.

48:57.343 --> 49:04.745
[JOHN]: This is their job, this is their function, and they're taking on their form and function for the purpose at hand.

49:05.545 --> 49:11.907
[JOHN]: And I just like that because it is hugely objective and detached.

49:13.508 --> 49:24.227
[JOHN]: and even though they understand the significance of the consequences of what they're doing, that is because everyone knew what would happen.

49:26.334 --> 49:29.876
[JOHN]: there was a blood killing, you know, and that's the interesting thing.

49:29.936 --> 49:32.337
[JOHN]: It's like, what did you expect?

49:32.917 --> 49:43.942
[JOHN]: You know, and everyone knows what would happen if one of the endless killed, one of their brethren, and this is what we're doing, and this is our function.

49:44.322 --> 49:58.717
[DEREK]: And we go absolutely and exactly the same way the death is there to collect the dead and dream is there to manage dreams the kindly ones or the theories are there too and It's an is a purest you decision making which and maybe

49:59.618 --> 50:23.424
[JOHN]: I'm kind of latching on to it is because there's so much snake oil and sort of folk tongues or you know spin or sort of just taking things out of context or just general lies these days and that you experience and it's like this is just kind of a purity in the sense of right and wrong and

50:26.041 --> 50:33.926
[JOHN]: action and consequence and that sometimes isn't seen as much of lace.

50:34.126 --> 50:37.248
[JOHN]: Yeah, certainly not reported on as much as lace.

50:37.989 --> 50:41.811
[JOHN]: You put your hand in the fire, it gets burned for the furies.

50:43.492 --> 50:49.997
[JOHN]: As an endless, you kill one of your brethren, you kill your own blood, then we unleash

50:51.070 --> 50:58.696
[JOHN]: our fury, the fate, and the less kindly stuff, when someone comes and tells us to do it.

50:58.956 --> 50:59.577
[DEREK]: Well, absolutely.

50:59.857 --> 51:00.157
[DEREK]: Absolutely.

51:00.177 --> 51:11.926
[DEREK]: And again, nothing contributing what they said before, they said they wouldn't go after Morphus until they were required to go after him and the required to go after him because life has come to them, looking for vengeance.

51:12.066 --> 51:12.867
[DEREK]: She is their weapon.

51:14.748 --> 51:17.070
[DEREK]: So, yeah, she's very detached in the scene.

51:17.110 --> 51:27.219
[DEREK]: I think I mentioned it right at the start of these moments here, when poor off of those green one, he's saying to her, you know, I'm a slusher, you know, I can't see you in a while, basically.

51:27.319 --> 51:27.959
[DEREK]: What are you doing here?

51:27.979 --> 51:28.780
[DEREK]: You shouldn't be here.

51:29.400 --> 51:36.607
[DEREK]: You know, he thinks he's looking at the person that he was friends with, when he was living in this very room, back in the flat London.

51:36.627 --> 51:36.667
[DEREK]: So,

51:37.907 --> 51:43.470
[DEREK]: Bush turns out she is blinded by vengeance, I guess, and guided by fates.

51:43.830 --> 51:44.770
[DEREK]: Absolutely.

51:44.790 --> 51:45.391
[DEREK]: Yeah.

51:45.751 --> 51:50.753
[DEREK]: I meant to mention this multiple times over the two seasons that we've seen the kindly ones.

51:51.433 --> 51:53.434
[DEREK]: We have seen the kindly ones that know their shows before.

51:53.474 --> 51:54.715
[DEREK]: We've heard mention of them before.

51:55.295 --> 51:59.037
[DEREK]: Many times things like Game of Thrones and Agatha all along have mentioned them as,

51:59.437 --> 52:05.821
[DEREK]: mother-made and crone, those are the three members of the furious and the kind of ones that we see here.

52:05.841 --> 52:07.923
[DEREK]: That's why they are all three of one.

52:07.943 --> 52:17.749
[DEREK]: That's why they all finish each other's sentences, why they all have different opinions on the words that they're saying as they pass a sentence around among them.

52:17.769 --> 52:18.330
[DEREK]: You know, it's there.

52:18.570 --> 52:20.131
[DEREK]: There's a motherly part of it.

52:20.451 --> 52:20.851
[DEREK]: There's a

52:22.367 --> 52:28.890
[DEREK]: Wizzened elderly paratrovers and there's a youthful paratrover every time they talk and I love that they It's so good to continue that.

52:28.930 --> 52:29.390
[DEREK]: It's really good.

52:29.710 --> 52:30.050
[DEREK]: Really good.

52:30.790 --> 52:39.334
[DEREK]: Excellent and an interesting way to end this episode and Oh, well, more of your sketch of the kind of ones being really exciting stuff actually.

52:39.554 --> 52:46.277
[JOHN]: I have to say as someone who hasn't read the books I'm really interested now for the the last two and

52:47.257 --> 52:47.897
[JOHN]: episode.

52:48.077 --> 52:52.298
[JOHN]: And then obviously there is the big final final episode.

52:52.359 --> 52:52.619
[DEREK]: Yes.

52:52.939 --> 52:53.139
[DEREK]: Yes.

52:53.559 --> 52:57.940
[DEREK]: Or at the cap or the epilogue, I guess, because the final episode, maybe epitaph.

52:58.420 --> 52:58.900
[DEREK]: It might be.

52:59.080 --> 52:59.340
[DEREK]: Maybe.

53:00.521 --> 53:02.321
[DEREK]: We will see that over the coming weeks.

53:02.942 --> 53:07.963
[DEREK]: But overall, John, what did you think of episode 9 of Season 2 of the Samman, the kindly ones?

53:08.223 --> 53:31.182
[JOHN]: I liked this, I liked it's kind of marched towards something that feels a little bit sort of fuzzier now, even though there's a certainty with lighter hull and the fates now in the dreaming and it's kind of turning dead with the stab or and death of Fiddler's green, kind of expands out from him this sort of

53:31.882 --> 53:32.202
[JOHN]: death.

53:33.283 --> 53:34.383
[JOHN]: So, but I liked it.

53:34.763 --> 53:42.386
[JOHN]: I loved the the body cups of drawing a constant time and the Corinthian after Loki.

53:43.686 --> 53:52.489
[JOHN]: The idea that Daniel Hall is the waiting to take the throne of the dreaming.

53:53.729 --> 53:57.771
[JOHN]: I also just, you know, the poetry of the

54:03.415 --> 54:21.348
[JOHN]: has lost even the godly version because he will take up as heir to the dreaming and so we'll be in the dreaming world, not the waking world, where she will I presume go back to, so maybe you know, it'll be interesting to see how this goes.

54:21.488 --> 54:22.949
[JOHN]: I'd give this a four and a

54:28.012 --> 54:32.915
[JOHN]: In particular, I thought those two Corinthian and Joanna Constantin were excellent.

54:33.075 --> 54:33.756
[JOHN]: Yeah.

54:34.236 --> 54:37.238
[JOHN]: I've really enjoyed Freddy Fox as Loki.

54:37.298 --> 54:38.098
[JOHN]: Oh yes.

54:38.478 --> 54:39.059
[JOHN]: Indeed.

54:39.319 --> 54:47.244
[JOHN]: Like, as they may be, reme, just slightly truncated, but I think that's the nature of how this second season possibly has come together.

54:47.264 --> 54:48.044
[JOHN]: Yeah.

54:48.424 --> 54:51.346
[JOHN]: And, and coupled with,

54:53.180 --> 54:58.242
[JOHN]: Jack Leeson, as pork, really, really good, I think.

54:58.322 --> 55:03.505
[DEREK]: It's good to like Jack Leeson after his season's in game with his job every year, exactly.

55:03.645 --> 55:05.906
[DEREK]: Like, it's nice to like him because he's a Irish guy.

55:05.966 --> 55:06.846
[DEREK]: He's from Dublin.

55:07.046 --> 55:13.609
[DEREK]: He had to give up acting or decided to give up acting after playing that role of Jaffrey for such a long time and being hated so much.

55:13.969 --> 55:17.230
[DEREK]: He went off to college and he's supposed to be a lovely guy, like a really nice guy.

55:17.270 --> 55:20.572
[DEREK]: So it's nice to see him in a role where you kind of like, you know,

55:20.992 --> 55:28.963
[JOHN]: Yeah, I mean, you still have the mistress pork, but yes, here's, it's just nice to see and I think there's two work well together.

55:28.983 --> 55:32.707
[JOHN]: Yeah, they really did, so yes, that was really good.

55:33.328 --> 55:37.474
[JOHN]: And yeah, just the whole thing with Delirium and Dream or Destiny, and...

55:37.854 --> 55:42.717
[JOHN]: Yeah, just tickles me and it's the bit of fuzzy hope that might still be there.

55:43.217 --> 55:53.703
[JOHN]: Or is it given that destiny kind of starts to sort of coalesce back into a single pathway and given what's gone on with old

56:03.268 --> 56:06.671
[DEREK]: Morphius gives Goldie to the narrative to go off as her companion.

56:06.691 --> 56:09.234
[DEREK]: I'm here at past to go and find Barnabas.

56:09.254 --> 56:16.481
[DEREK]: So that's one member of the dreaming that may not be there when life detects her revenge on everybody else in the dreaming or more if he is his way.

56:16.941 --> 56:22.026
[DEREK]: And we'll more if he is able to get back into the dreaming while life is there, killing all of his subjects.

56:22.186 --> 56:23.347
[DEREK]: You know, we'll see.

56:23.487 --> 56:27.031
[DEREK]: Yeah, we will certainly see his on the path of vengeance certainly right now.

56:27.831 --> 56:35.495
[JOHN]: But with that fellow dreamers, we will get on to our feedback for this episode.

56:36.355 --> 56:41.577
[JOHN]: First up by email, Coffee and vodka says, greetings fellow fellow field defenders.

56:42.057 --> 56:50.061
[JOHN]: The condensing remixing and quick marching of plots to see three or four more seasons completed in one makes for some thick viewing.

56:50.581 --> 56:59.906
[JOHN]: Of what I can remember, from one watch this Corinthian is menacingly kind and in his own unpredictable way, waste-carrier than his predecessor.

57:00.346 --> 57:06.590
[JOHN]: His and Joanna's buddy copying provided humorous relief to the pathos of the rest of the episode.

57:07.170 --> 57:13.113
[JOHN]: Gilbert's final words to dream carefully encapsulated the season and tutors all of valuable lesson.

57:13.534 --> 57:15.635
[JOHN]: Do good things and the fates will kill you.

57:16.375 --> 57:20.596
[JOHN]: Speaking of, is there anyone who doesn't know Morphius is marked for death?

57:21.056 --> 57:32.559
[JOHN]: With dream off the reservation, Loki off to his just desserts, Daniel off to the dreaming, lighter off her head and put off to fairy, we'll see where all lands next episode.

57:33.019 --> 57:36.680
[JOHN]: The very least hopefully delirium finds Parnabus.

57:37.160 --> 57:38.640
[JOHN]: Five fiddlers, deserts,

57:47.623 --> 57:54.846
[DEREK]: I love how you've described Corinthian as menacingly kind, and maybe even scarier than his predecessor.

57:54.906 --> 57:57.007
[DEREK]: There is something about that, isn't there?

57:57.127 --> 57:58.648
[DEREK]: We know he's not the same.

57:59.408 --> 58:09.572
[DEREK]: Morpheus, who we absolutely trust, has said, he's never going to be like the previous Corinthian because that one disappointed me, and I've made him differently this time.

58:10.093 --> 58:10.373
[DEREK]: But...

58:11.173 --> 58:13.454
[DEREK]: we have the experience of the previous Corinthians.

58:13.474 --> 58:16.796
[DEREK]: Every time you see this character on screen, you go, what's he going to do?

58:17.476 --> 58:21.758
[DEREK]: You know, the fact that he reaches down and rips at the eyeballs, if this is more, it eats them.

58:22.358 --> 58:33.123
[DEREK]: That's pretty similar to what the previous Corinthians did, but he's doing it to investigate the disappearance of a child and using that pair that he has to solve that.

58:33.163 --> 58:35.404
[DEREK]: So, yeah, there are moments when you go, ooh,

58:36.324 --> 58:41.468
[DEREK]: Could he be just as bad and just like Joanna questioning every time and every word he says early on?

58:42.509 --> 58:43.149
[DEREK]: But it's interesting.

58:43.190 --> 58:46.292
[DEREK]: He's the one that's talking about love so much in this episode.

58:46.352 --> 58:49.214
[DEREK]: So Again, I love how they've incorporated that.

58:49.474 --> 58:50.415
[DEREK]: There are a lot of jumps.

58:50.435 --> 58:52.497
[DEREK]: There's lots of good dancing, but I love how they've incorporated that

58:52.822 --> 59:01.392
[JOHN]: Yeah, I'm absolutely, and again, I liked how they incorporated Mrs. Shaw's eyes into his little TV and sort of socket.

59:01.713 --> 59:02.754
[JOHN]: Yes, absolutely.

59:03.254 --> 59:03.835
[DEREK]: Great stuff.

59:04.196 --> 59:05.317
[DEREK]: Thanks, coffee and vodka.

59:05.557 --> 59:07.720
[DEREK]: Absolutely, thanks so much as always, coffee and vodka.

59:08.242 --> 59:21.225
[JOHN]: Yeah, over on Facebook, Dr. Bob Phillips says, there's more emulation in this season of Sananda, and I think has been in the whole of my year of viewing today, excluding Johnny Storm because that really doesn't count.

59:21.625 --> 59:34.787
[JOHN]: I've particularly enjoyed the turn that Destiny has had in last couple of episodes with blank pages and the multiplicities collapsing like observed wave forms will liarly waste as a tool of the fate.

59:38.188 --> 59:44.412
[JOHN]: and Lirium find her dog and save her brother to plus one to go.

59:45.032 --> 59:47.374
[JOHN]: Indeed, good stuff.

59:47.454 --> 59:48.354
[JOHN]: Thanks, Dr. Bob.

59:48.374 --> 59:53.638
[JOHN]: Yeah, more emulation, excluding Johnny Storm.

59:53.658 --> 59:55.339
[DEREK]: Yeah, if you include the Johnny Storm.

59:55.819 --> 59:57.020
[DEREK]: There's more of that movie.

59:57.280 --> 59:58.000
[DEREK]: Oh, big time.

59:58.240 --> 59:58.600
[DEREK]: Yeah.

59:58.620 --> 01:00:03.243
[DEREK]: But there's love's got this been a lot in lots of shows that we watch as well as not just in Sandman as well.

01:00:03.643 --> 01:00:03.823
[JOHN]: Yeah.

01:00:03.903 --> 01:00:12.867
[JOHN]: And I think like yourself, Dr. Well, as well as with coffee and vodka, really hoping that boner business fans can put a smile on our faces.

01:00:12.887 --> 01:00:13.508
[JOHN]: Absolutely.

01:00:13.528 --> 01:00:18.250
[JOHN]: But yes, three episodes to go at two for this storyline.

01:00:18.330 --> 01:00:19.570
[JOHN]: Yep, hmm, one of the things.

01:00:19.590 --> 01:00:20.291
[JOHN]: Looking forward to that.

01:00:20.871 --> 01:00:21.592
[JOHN]: Thanks Dr. Bob.

01:00:21.852 --> 01:00:22.233
[DEREK]: Absolutely.

01:00:22.273 --> 01:00:23.014
[DEREK]: Thanks Dr. Bob.

01:00:23.514 --> 01:00:25.457
[DEREK]: We also have some feedback in from Paul Tenshi Lee.

01:00:25.477 --> 01:00:32.766
[DEREK]: There's the piece I held over from episode 8 because there's a little bit of spoilers for episode 9 as I'm going to read the map before John had seen the episode.

01:00:33.166 --> 01:00:35.850
[DEREK]: So I'm going to put together both piece of feedback for episode 8.

01:00:37.111 --> 01:00:40.235
[DEREK]: So Paul says I watched episode 8 and then binge the rest of the season.

01:00:40.575 --> 01:00:54.931
[DEREK]: Hope I will keep my comments to the specific episode Where book and Loki lovers in the comics I can't remember, but I love their dynamic the show soften book from his comics Kind of hard, but it makes plot sense and makes book to be less of a total a-hold and Loki

01:00:55.511 --> 01:01:00.153
[DEREK]: Jenna Coleman, uh, gender swapping Joanna for John at least for some fun banter with the other characters.

01:01:00.413 --> 01:01:04.235
[DEREK]: The general gender swapping definitely makes the show feel less broughy than the comics.

01:01:04.655 --> 01:01:12.538
[DEREK]: This goes back to Lucienne and even having gold instead of Bruton Glob, running Jed's Dreams, also great chemistry between her and Boyd Hallbrook.

01:01:13.298 --> 01:01:13.959
[DEREK]: couldn't agree more.

01:01:14.339 --> 01:01:15.079
[DEREK]: Yeah, absolutely.

01:01:15.099 --> 01:01:21.023
[DEREK]: You know that the idea of changing over the character to Joanna Constantin has just added so much to the show, hasn't it?

01:01:21.684 --> 01:01:22.524
[DEREK]: She's been fantastic.

01:01:23.185 --> 01:01:24.306
[DEREK]: Yeah, definitely.

01:01:24.446 --> 01:01:36.394
[DEREK]: Love Jonathan Cobb and straight from the first time I saw her on Dr. Who with two different doctors, and she's great there, and then into the show of the serpent, where she played the partner of the murderer in that show.

01:01:36.454 --> 01:01:37.615
[DEREK]: So really good.

01:01:37.915 --> 01:01:38.696
[DEREK]: Yeah, absolutely.

01:01:38.716 --> 01:01:38.856
[DEREK]: Yeah.

01:01:39.396 --> 01:01:40.557
[DEREK]: So a great presence in here.

01:01:41.357 --> 01:01:45.020
[DEREK]: Polk continues how does Polk not realize that it's Loki wearing Morpheus's face?

01:01:45.421 --> 01:01:47.642
[DEREK]: Again, this is a softer, gentler Polk, I guess.

01:01:48.163 --> 01:01:52.486
[DEREK]: What Loki did to Daniel was terrible, and it was clearly by instruction from Morpheus.

01:01:52.586 --> 01:01:54.428
[DEREK]: I don't think I clocked that when I read the comics.

01:01:54.828 --> 01:01:56.970
[DEREK]: Morpheus is a beautiful bastard.

01:01:57.810 --> 01:02:09.279
[DEREK]: And we get to hear about Loki's internal torment, which yeah, he might deserve it for some amount of time, but the point of nother stories is that no one deserves to be punished forever, and that thread is for a later episode.

01:02:10.660 --> 01:02:10.860
[JOHN]: Yes.

01:02:11.160 --> 01:02:14.181
[JOHN]: I like that angle on this.

01:02:14.901 --> 01:02:15.701
[DEREK]: Yeah, definitely.

01:02:15.901 --> 01:02:16.061
[JOHN]: Yeah.

01:02:16.381 --> 01:02:16.541
[DEREK]: Yeah.

01:02:17.422 --> 01:02:24.683
[DEREK]: Paul continues, I don't know my Norse mythology well enough, but I seem to remember something about Odin releasing Loki to help Fendoff Ragnarok.

01:02:25.104 --> 01:02:32.665
[DEREK]: It's understandable that the show team did not decide to give lies or orhector any of their comics history of being the superhero fury and silver scarve.

01:02:33.025 --> 01:02:39.227
[DEREK]: It does make it slightly odd for the fight to pick a random civilian to face the forces that Morpheus might deploy in the dreaming to protect himself.

01:02:39.627 --> 01:02:44.371
[DEREK]: Also, what do I feel like the fights have been after Morphism even before he killed Orphus?

01:02:44.752 --> 01:02:47.894
[DEREK]: It's not like they're any less cryptic to the other people they talk to.

01:02:48.535 --> 01:02:54.680
[DEREK]: The episode summary on Wikipedia suggested Joanna inadvertently summoned Odin when she casts the tracking spell for Loki.

01:02:55.040 --> 01:02:56.822
[DEREK]: I think she knew exactly what she was doing.

01:02:57.002 --> 01:02:57.382
[DEREK]: Agreed?

01:02:57.903 --> 01:03:01.105
[DEREK]: And finally says Dead Fiddler's Green is pretty sad.

01:03:02.251 --> 01:03:18.291
[JOHN]: It is actually, I was kind of just because as well, how he welcomed Liza to the Dreaming and sort of just talking to a chatting to her, like you say, as an old friend and then outcomes are sort and before you know, it is run through by lighter.

01:03:20.547 --> 01:03:24.911
[DEREK]: Yeah, I think Fred has grown as always been a really soft presence in the show as well.

01:03:24.971 --> 01:03:33.759
[DEREK]: Yeah, there was the original introduction in season one of him as Gilbert, just being this very friendly character who was welcoming in everybody around him.

01:03:34.480 --> 01:03:39.284
[DEREK]: And then we find out he was a dream that had run away to experience life in the world.

01:03:40.085 --> 01:03:41.486
[DEREK]: And he's the one that brings the

01:03:42.607 --> 01:03:45.109
[DEREK]: beauty to the land of the dreaming effectively.

01:03:45.129 --> 01:03:57.357
[DEREK]: So now that he's dead, you see that disintegration of all of the greenery, you know, this is now a really dull landscape by the end of the steps that I've delighted to take so much.

01:03:58.017 --> 01:03:59.538
[DEREK]: Absolutely.

01:03:59.839 --> 01:04:05.242
[DEREK]: And also Paul, you mentioned about them removing the superhero history of life and actor from the

01:04:06.483 --> 01:04:08.626
[DEREK]: the story here on the Saman TV show.

01:04:09.187 --> 01:04:21.244
[DEREK]: I suppose the one thing that's still stands is that lighter conceived Daniel in the Dreaming, so that's what makes her powerful, that's what makes her a tool, that the fates can use versus Morpheus, it's not just the Chi...

01:04:22.385 --> 01:04:24.306
[DEREK]: was able to be a superhero in the Dreaming.

01:04:24.366 --> 01:04:28.428
[DEREK]: It's that that she has had a very specific experience.

01:04:29.008 --> 01:04:31.769
[DEREK]: And so they're using that as their way in, I suppose.

01:04:32.029 --> 01:04:36.291
[DEREK]: And so for for a TV audience, you may not have read the stories in the comics.

01:04:36.331 --> 01:04:38.652
[DEREK]: I think that makes a little bit more sense.

01:04:38.933 --> 01:04:45.856
[DEREK]: Because I do think it would be really unusual if they'd had the two of those characters playing DC superheroes on screen.

01:04:47.196 --> 01:04:50.178
[DEREK]: So I don't think it would have, I don't know, I don't know how you would get it across as well as

01:04:51.218 --> 01:04:51.699
[JOHN]: Absolutely.

01:04:51.739 --> 01:05:06.175
[JOHN]: I think I think it's a good choice not to do that for someone who hasn't read the comics I think that would be I think maybe if they had the five seasons and then absolutely I think there's time to do it and but he equally with that.

01:05:06.376 --> 01:05:08.678
[JOHN]: It's just whether it makes sense to another origin.

01:05:08.718 --> 01:05:10.340
[JOHN]: So I think this is trying to have

01:05:11.962 --> 01:05:14.785
[JOHN]: it pitched away from the superhero element.

01:05:14.845 --> 01:05:22.935
[JOHN]: So I can see why they made that kind of executive sort of creative decision in a sense.

01:05:23.175 --> 01:05:23.715
[JOHN]: Yeah.

01:05:23.816 --> 01:05:29.062
[JOHN]: But as always, Paul, really good to get your thoughts and observations.

01:05:29.342 --> 01:05:32.766
[JOHN]: And as with all other fellow dreamers,

01:05:33.506 --> 01:05:42.153
[JOHN]: it's really good these are so dense and lay it and as you say it plus all the volumes of the comic book and that

01:05:43.937 --> 01:05:49.241
[JOHN]: certainly with me bound to miss something and it's great to get your thoughts.

01:05:49.301 --> 01:05:57.328
[JOHN]: So, yet Paul, Dr. Bob and Coffin vodka as well as off other fellow Dreamers keep your thoughts coming in.

01:05:57.628 --> 01:06:00.630
[DEREK]: Absolutely, a couple more weeks left in our coverage of the Sand Mountain.

01:06:00.730 --> 01:06:06.135
[DEREK]: Next time we'll be covering the Sand Man Season 2 episode 10 Long Live the King.

01:06:06.155 --> 01:06:09.417
[JOHN]: And I'm looking forward to that.

01:06:09.537 --> 01:06:10.318
[DEREK]: Yes, me too.

01:06:10.578 --> 01:06:11.319
[DEREK]: Really look forward to that.

01:06:11.952 --> 01:06:15.753
[JOHN]: Yeah, but thanks so much fellow Dreamers for joining us.

01:06:16.073 --> 01:06:18.654
[JOHN]: Please stay subscribed to the podcast.

01:06:19.274 --> 01:06:21.855
[JOHN]: If you enjoy what you hear, please share it with your friends.

01:06:21.895 --> 01:06:25.416
[JOHN]: Because of course sharing the podcast is sharing the love.

01:06:25.636 --> 01:06:27.477
[JOHN]: Yes, it's not doing a Lyta Hall

01:06:27.557 --> 01:06:28.617
[JOHN]: on Fiddler's Green.

01:06:28.797 --> 01:06:35.383
[DEREK]: and your love could be listening to us for the last 11 years or you could have just found us for the specific episode of the sun indeed.

01:06:35.403 --> 01:06:48.516
[JOHN]: It's all of indeed and great stuff we will be yeah back next time as Derek says with along with the king and until then keep watching keep listening and of course keep dreaming.

01:06:48.536 --> 01:06:49.036
[JOHN]: Bye bye.