Shogun Chapter 5 Broken To The Fist Podcast

[00:00:00] This is the Shogun Podcast on TV Podcast Industries and we're talking about Shogun Chapter 5,

[00:00:06] broken to the fist. He would like to know about it while you have what in.

[00:00:12] Ah, well my war story's a sort of hole.

[00:00:16] Please listen, my husband is tired and has had a lot to drink you must have it for story.

[00:00:24] But choose your words carefully.

[00:00:30] Welcome back fellow warriors. This is TV Podcast Industries, this is the Shogun Podcast and we are

[00:00:55] talking about Chapter 5 of the first season of Shogun, broken to the fist. I am one of your host

[00:01:02] John and I'm your other host Derek welcome back. Yes indeed it is moving on a pace now but

[00:01:10] it's not going quite as I guess Torinago would hope for. Yeah no interesting developments here

[00:01:19] seemingly going from a place of power to one where he is being undermined by natural forces as much as

[00:01:29] the machinations of what's going on in Asaka. Yeah so yeah really good stuff but fellow warriors

[00:01:37] if you are joining us for the first time welcome and of course you can head on over to our website

[00:01:43] at tvpodcastindustries.com where you can subscribe to any good or evil podcast player of your choice.

[00:01:50] We also have our feedback section for each and every episode of Shogun so if you want to give

[00:01:56] any thoughts theories observations or comments or indeed chastises over our pronunciation of these

[00:02:05] the names and of course please don't do that. Please forgive us if you think we aren't pronouncing

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[00:02:21] or head on over to our Facebook group where you can leave a message as well on our spoiler filled

[00:02:29] posts just go to facebook.com forward slash groups forward slash tv podcast industries but I think

[00:02:37] we should get into our spoiler filled discussion of chapter 5 of Shogun broken to the fist.

[00:02:46] Derek what are some of the episode details? Well of course the show is based on the James

[00:02:50] DeVel 1975 novel of the same name Shogun and brought to the screen by Rachel Kondo and Justin

[00:02:57] Mark's excellent stuff. Yeah this episode was written by Matt Lambert who's written lots and lots

[00:03:02] of stuff but important for our podcast because we always like to call things that they've done before

[00:03:07] at Matt Lambert wrote an episode of season 2 of Invincible. Excellent stuff. Guess what's all you wrote

[00:03:12] done? I don't know. He wrote in about six hours I'm going to lose my virginity to a fish the best

[00:03:17] named episode. That's invincible. Interesting. Which interestingly the self-adgressors are also

[00:03:22] covering on this very podcast right now so I think this week actually we should be starting our

[00:03:26] coverage of Invincible. It's amazing the talent and diversity of treatments that writers can get

[00:03:33] up to going from you know 16th century or 17th century Japan through to an animated comic book

[00:03:44] series that's being treated and certainly one with such irreference. Yes both very ultra-violent I

[00:03:50] would say as a big connection between the two. I guess so and just the difference in reverence

[00:03:54] very reverent here in the time of Shogun but less so very important. Yeah it's for Invincible.

[00:04:04] Particularly that episode. Good stuff. We talked about the director before Fred Rectoy who directed

[00:04:09] last week's episode and directed lots of shows that we've covered here on TV podcast industries

[00:04:13] including The Watchmen. Yeah excellent stuff. So another great lineup behind the scenes here.

[00:04:21] Absolutely. Absolutely John. Do you want to tell us what the game is with the Snops'

[00:04:24] for this episode of Shogun? Chapter 5 broken to the fist. Sure. Black Thorn and Mariko's struggles

[00:04:31] who contain the secret that could get them both killed while the Abyssiga searches for the spy

[00:04:38] who has betrayed his intentions to Lord Torenaga. Short and sweet. It is as they always are

[00:04:44] these are the official Snopsies from Faxon Hulu and not very representative of the episode either I think

[00:04:51] there's a lot happening in this for sure and it goes beyond just what the official Snopsies

[00:04:59] happens but certainly in terms of the personal relationships happening in this wider political

[00:05:08] conflict. Certainly they are two of the main ones. Where does Abyssiga lie in all of this given his

[00:05:16] previous associations with the Shido and of course you know the rules and customs of court

[00:05:23] being thrown into doubt and indeed marriage in Japan being thrown into doubt by the arrival

[00:05:31] of Black Thorn and this relationship that he is cultivating or both him and Mariko are cultivating.

[00:05:38] Yeah I also think it might be a little simpler than that. I think the people who were at the Snopsies

[00:05:42] didn't want to reveal that Buntaro is still alive and returns in this episode because that's a bit

[00:05:47] of a shocking surprise if you haven't read the books. Well indeed still alive because that throws

[00:05:52] the cat amongst the pigeons for everything that's been happening with Black Thorn America as well so

[00:05:56] and so I suppose you want to hide that right? Yes and I mean that is kind of like the opening of

[00:06:02] this episode is the arrival of Lord Torenaga to a Giro and he happens to have this surprise guest

[00:06:11] with Buntaro still being alive and escaped the second. Yeah yeah but one thing obviously what

[00:06:18] I confirm we were talking about in the last episode that we weren't 100% sure whether Mariko and John

[00:06:22] Black Thorn had slept together after we watched it back again one more time thinking pretty clear

[00:06:27] that that was Mariko and John Black Thorn had slept together and she was covering it up the

[00:06:32] following day saying a court has not been sent over to take care of him. Yeah basically.

[00:06:37] But we were kind of going 100% sure. I know John was a little more sure than I was but it was just

[00:06:42] the way the scene at Playday that we just weren't sure when we came to record the podcast but

[00:06:46] it was pretty clear the set of the next time we watched it. Yes sir I said the royal we is being

[00:06:51] employed here. It was yes yes well what I fail you failed John that's where I like to say.

[00:06:58] Well let us get into our top Bishido's 4 chapter 5 of Shogun.

[00:07:06] On to Bishido number one it is the fallout of Yosun's murder, the general, Ashido's general.

[00:07:15] We have the arrival back of Torinaga we also have Bontaro joining him but there is

[00:07:21] the fallout of the killing and attack on Ashido's representative in general Yosun.

[00:07:29] This is interesting I think on a number of different levels for me because I think in particular

[00:07:40] just the certainty from Torinaga that his son could not have come up with this idea.

[00:07:49] It plays out with the Abashige as well and I just really enjoy these scenes where

[00:07:57] Torinaga is basically saying you know my son is not Lord Nagakado is not clever enough to think

[00:08:05] of such a plan. In a sense Yabashige's game is up but not in a bad way it's just Torinaga knows

[00:08:17] in a sense that his nephew was at Playday he can see that Yabashige's nephew is actually quite

[00:08:26] an astute individual and Torinaga can it's almost like he kind of understands Yabashige's game

[00:08:34] you know just to play both sides. He still he wants that out and whilst Yabashige almost

[00:08:41] throws his nephew on me under the bus you know do you want him disciplined effectively asks

[00:08:47] you know Torinaga says no because ultimately his nephew is engineered a situation where

[00:08:56] you know it could force his enemies to attack to draw them out of the fortress that is a sacre.

[00:09:04] I think I just like the way how Yabashige is and you know I was thinking the same thing

[00:09:08] a measier backtracking immediately trying to kind of save his own neck really here so you know

[00:09:15] this fallout for Yabashige is significant but also for Lord Nagakado as well who's reassuring

[00:09:26] that he's aligned from that canon regiment you know. Yeah absolutely he loses the control that he

[00:09:31] got in the last couple of episodes so I don't understand a little I guess but I think you're

[00:09:36] right one of the best things about these scenes is that Torinaga once he is given a moment to just

[00:09:41] consider what's happening what's happening he's very easily put able to put the pieces together

[00:09:46] he's like he's like a very good detective in the situation he's going to go okay my son couldn't

[00:09:53] possibly do it who would be the person that would influence most yet that's definitely the right

[00:09:57] person bush how can I take this to my advantage maybe if it draws out a sheet of his army it will

[00:10:03] actually make it easier for us to win against them because I won't be able to send their full forces

[00:10:07] because their full force has to protect Asaka so really interesting conversation there. Yeah absolutely

[00:10:12] I also love to discussion about all men can be broken or really liked his description of that where

[00:10:19] he's saying all men can be broken just learn to fly them at the right game and they'll sometimes

[00:10:24] be the ones that will do the hunting for you which I thought was a really interesting observation

[00:10:30] from Torinaga as well. Yeah I mean this is where Torinaga is sort of effectively having his annoyed

[00:10:36] conversation and discipling his son yes and and you know I just kind of like how you know he uses

[00:10:46] that analogy of falconry so I might easily attract it to the lure and such as his son you know he

[00:10:52] he's so easily fell into sort of their trap you know and they're bidding basically yeah yeah

[00:11:00] Yabashiga and Aziga nephew they're they're bidding and yeah as you say then it's you know this idea

[00:11:06] that the falcon has broken to an ultimate man's face in this case and Nagakado to Yabashiga's plans

[00:11:14] well exactly yeah really good and what Torinaga is saying to him as if you learn these ways correctly

[00:11:20] you could break anybody and make them do your hunting exactly it's really good and Omi

[00:11:25] is given command of the artillery regiment you know I there is a part of me here that I feel that

[00:11:31] Torinaga has some respect here for Yabashiga's nephew there might be a little bit of keep your friends

[00:11:38] close so you got him I think there was where look at that yeah but you know it is kind of interesting

[00:11:43] and it's the political game of keeping him close like you say by giving him this command so again

[00:11:50] it's really a good kind of aspect to it I mean you know with Torinaga he is saying to

[00:11:58] Yabashiga that you must return to Osaka there has been an order here and you know what are

[00:12:06] you going to do so Torinaga is saying you can go to Osaka if you want but you know we've heard from

[00:12:12] Yabashiga about this idea that you know he he's almost feels and you know he's got no agency almost

[00:12:19] he's trying to find it by doing all these different things he he feels like he's stuck in the middle

[00:12:24] and none of it is ever going to be and sort of fruitful for him in any way and so

[00:12:30] trying really hard though and and the point is you know he feels like

[00:12:34] Torinaga's on the precipice here if he falls he doesn't want to be the one that falls with him so

[00:12:39] I said the backup plan backup plan is regularly becoming the surface plan and getting him into trouble

[00:12:45] with Torinaga so he has to reiterate so that he is not going back to Osaka because he's fully aligned

[00:12:50] with Torinaga well and as he says you know from that sunrise scene from the previous episodes

[00:12:55] you know since that sunrise we're bound by faith you know so I kind of like that you know it's

[00:13:02] that destiny element to it all that faithfulness and so this is really interesting kind of the fall

[00:13:09] out from Yoseun's murder effect absolutely I also like and I know you mentioned that as nephew gets

[00:13:16] the gets controlled the canon regiment but I do like that Yabashiga goes it's still my army

[00:13:22] you're in control of it you're my nephew I'm a control of you basically yeah exactly totally

[00:13:26] pulls the rug from under his feet and doesn't really allow any any sense of achievement to sort

[00:13:33] of wash over him and interesting as well Yoseun's head is sent back into the box to Osaka to

[00:13:40] a shido so yeah so with everything going on back in a sack there was a timely reminder here with

[00:13:46] this sort of box being returned yes I mean you know ultimately it's all very seven going on well

[00:13:53] absolutely absolutely the head returned to its master yeah and so well wrapped as well with the

[00:14:00] cloth or the silks you know yeah with no trace of blood on it so it's all very well packaged

[00:14:07] well absolutely you get to feel the may have done this a couple of times before potentially but

[00:14:13] do you want to talk a little bit about what's going on in the sack in this point you do

[00:14:17] want to hold an arm for a later point John I think we can hold that on a little bit later

[00:14:22] for the episode yeah because we do have a big return here from Edo back to Osaka yeah

[00:14:30] it's the dynamic here from it just being men talking about how the fate of Japan will go

[00:14:38] to the insertion of lady a lady a chiepa as well as she returns back from being hosted okay let's

[00:14:47] hold that for another another bachido so is there anything else in the fall out of Chio Joseun's murder

[00:14:51] then no not for me I just think it was really good you know yeah it's just that it's it's the politics

[00:14:58] but in this group that's so interesting here yeah it was also must say that opening scene when

[00:15:05] they're picking up the pieces of the bodies and putting them in boxes basically it was pretty

[00:15:09] brief those yeah definitely because um all the the locals and the in the town are kind of going we

[00:15:15] weren't really meant to be doing this I didn't think this was a part of our job you like uh so let's

[00:15:20] go on to bachido number two the other big return for the episode absolutely borish bontaro returns

[00:15:26] and is inserted into john black forns household um so I mean hit it immediately sort of smacks of um

[00:15:37] pure awkwardness oh absolutely yeah really really tough there's there's some really interesting

[00:15:42] stuff that's going on as well around and we get the whole feson story which we'll probably talk

[00:15:46] about a little bit here but uh john being gifted the fesons from the toronaga's hunting trip so

[00:15:51] uh that must be the most prized feson to know all of the land effectively as he says so he's

[00:15:55] going to make something special like so he's gonna make a stew for everybody well that's it I mean

[00:15:58] this food to uh to um the japanese exactly i mean i actually love this little kind of jokie through

[00:16:05] threat which ultimately had an ended with a serious oh yeah i'll come from it um but i really kind

[00:16:13] of liked but least initially the jokiness of the feson twer you know it's being you know strong up

[00:16:20] just to sort of age and but it's just getting more and more smelly at flies you know

[00:16:27] amagots and everyone and um who's not john black thorn is kind of like uh we need to get rid of this

[00:16:35] what's he doing this is like this is a travesty what is happening here um you know and you know

[00:16:42] you know they talk about i can't remember the name but almost like you know and there there's a

[00:16:47] curse upon us and we have this as well within the the conversations between mariko and fuzhi um

[00:16:55] and i love that perspective of the these two talking about how we're both cursed you know fuzhi

[00:17:00] goes i have the barbarian and your husband is back from the dead to mariko so and it kind of

[00:17:07] plays into this i guess the feson's is almost a symbol of that it's almost like an evil curse on

[00:17:14] the household and it's all easing towards this uh big dinner uh for lord toda for buntaro that um

[00:17:23] john's household it is doing and um you know again you just have the flies buzzing around

[00:17:31] buntaro and he's kind of getting more and more agitated by these buzzing flies as he sort of is

[00:17:37] you know like picks them off and and and kills them yeah and but you see the irritation

[00:17:44] from these flies buzzing around him from the sort of decaying feson's oh absolutely out

[00:17:50] out front but i think that's that's one of the other really good points here mariko is the one

[00:17:54] that's doing all the translation for uh for john she understands his language perfectly she got

[00:17:59] really good uh portuguese study still speaking rush yeah and so she's able to discuss everything with

[00:18:05] them but she might understand the language but the intention of why you would hang up a perfectly good

[00:18:10] freshly hunted feson's outside to age is uh is completely lost on her and everybody else in the

[00:18:16] household they all believe that something bad is going to happen and john lays down the line because

[00:18:22] this is what he wants this is his big his big deal he's actually going to be able to cook for

[00:18:26] himself and maybe something that tastes like home uh so he lays down the line if anybody touches

[00:18:30] that they're dead right just make sure everybody's clear in the household to touch us and you die

[00:18:34] basically yeah um which i think he means there's a little bit of a joke i don't think he meant

[00:18:38] us that anybody would die if they take no exactly no so uh so that's interesting but also the other

[00:18:44] element that comes out of this butaro having to live in the household of john he knows something's

[00:18:49] going on between mariko and john he doesn't like john at all he doesn't like the uh grace he's been

[00:18:54] given by torenaga and interestingly fougi feels that john's life is in danger by puntaro being

[00:19:01] here as well yeah absolutely absolutely and i mean it's everything you know it goes to the rabbit

[00:19:06] stew that's been proposed um whereas not to any of their tastes you know again it's all

[00:19:12] connecting into it well this is just a barbarian's and feast effectively and then i love that he's

[00:19:18] like i couldn't get all the ingredients that i needed we weren't we weren't able to get any wine

[00:19:22] so i had to get some saki into the into the into the mix instead of wine kind of go this is not

[00:19:27] going to taste fricking well exactly but it's like but it's all gravy in the end exactly uh

[00:19:31] kind of like that term of phrase but absolutely especially because at the end uh of the meal um

[00:19:37] fougi gives the instructions to throw it in the river yeah so nobody wants it anymore no it's

[00:19:41] excellent um and you know but it again it's that back and forth where then all of a sudden um

[00:19:48] you know it's almost like john is trying to sort of get into puntaro's good books by copying him

[00:19:54] eating the noodles so you have this noodle-eating competition and making the sort of the

[00:19:59] noise as as you take it up and that's kind of morphs ultimately into you know as it does between

[00:20:07] men i guess and you know a drinking competition between puntaro and blackthorn with saki being

[00:20:15] the the the the drink being used here to kind of prove themselves because the effect will

[00:20:21] effectively come from the standard saki drinking glasses which is kind of the size of egg cups

[00:20:25] or shot glasses basically uh to using the bowls for their food and drinking great sweats of this

[00:20:33] of this saki which is massively strong we've never had a saki knife and where it prepared for us

[00:20:38] um it leads to massive hangovers the next day and very drunken ideas coming out here yeah

[00:20:44] john does a couple of things to offend um puntaro initially welcoming into his home and not calling him

[00:20:50] lord todo uh went down really badly with him definitely then secondly the way he eats as you say

[00:20:55] uh not only is john trying to copy him that offends lord todo um that he wouldn't eat the same

[00:21:02] way that japan he's people would and then he asks him to tell him about his great escapades that

[00:21:08] he's had at war which again highly offends puntaro he's gone through a massive amount of um of

[00:21:15] i get effective is it's kind of PTSD that they're talking but yeah it's said it took him 20 days to

[00:21:20] fight his way back to uh torenaga's army after the last time they saw him standing on the docks

[00:21:26] thinking he was facing down death well that's it it's he asks him about the heroism for of

[00:21:32] escaping a psycho which is not how puntaro sees it you know that's a failure of his duty in some

[00:21:40] respects to sort of go down um fighting you know kind of yeah to some extent it's that you know

[00:21:48] he effectively he had to flee to live you know yeah rather than face death yeah and maybe come out

[00:21:57] of that with honor by being kept alive but i mean ultimately it was a no-win situation

[00:22:03] but in the end you hear from torenaga that you know a the number of ronin helped him and there were

[00:22:10] 20 of them by the end of it by the time they got backed and escaped to edo and there was him and

[00:22:16] tools you know so i think it's that kind of it's that miscalculation from john about fully

[00:22:24] understanding the rituals and culture that he's in yeah you know he still doesn't yeah i think

[00:22:31] puntaro is also quite an unusual character he's very different from a lot of the other characters

[00:22:36] he doesn't he is a great warrior but doesn't see himself as a hero doesn't want to tell those

[00:22:42] stories over a pint you know he doesn't want to brag about the situations that he's been in

[00:22:47] and when john tries to engage him in that conversation it comes across highly offensive to puntaro

[00:22:52] because of what he's done and that's the way it comes across to me anyway but i get what you mean

[00:22:57] that he may have he may have felt he was disrespectful by surviving uh well i think it's both

[00:23:03] i think it's both i think it's the manner in which he survived you know but this turns i suppose

[00:23:08] on a dime into some pretty brutal moments here yeah we have his his demo with a bow where he effectively

[00:23:18] shoots out into the garden through um through the door past marico's face with an arrow while

[00:23:27] after drinking a gallon of of sack it goes yeah exactly just that brilliantly caught

[00:23:32] shot of the arrow going past the face of marico i'm presuming it CGI i presume that it didn't ask

[00:23:38] the actress to sit there while they shot a couple of hours faster but it looks fantastic yeah really

[00:23:43] just to see it go by her face you know he's got that level of of leg a last skill with a with a bow

[00:23:48] and arrow really um puntaro didn't he yeah definitely definitely but i love and it's just a touch

[00:23:53] i noticed the second time i watched the episode or whether i noticed at the first time but he

[00:23:57] shoots two arrows out onto the right post that john has indicated um and later on when john comes

[00:24:02] back you see the two arrows outside but they don't show you during the moment they don't show you

[00:24:06] that those two are land exactly where he placed them they show show the arrow going past her face

[00:24:10] but they show you at the end of the episode the arrows exactly their mark which i thought was quite

[00:24:14] interesting and but also then it leads to him instructing marico to tell john of her past and who she

[00:24:24] really is and why effectively why he treats her the way he does but well exactly and in his mind

[00:24:30] it's okay to do that but it's more than that because i mean in a sense you know john black phone

[00:24:34] is kept from exactly what puntaro is saying to his wife which is you know is in that he's

[00:24:41] instruction or forcing her to tell him uh tell john her sorted history and her filthy line with

[00:24:51] family line of lord a kessie jinsai and his treachery you know puntaro's views he was treacherous

[00:24:59] you know he calls it a treacherous assassin killing the former japanese ruler before the the

[00:25:06] taiko and and that as a result of this all her family were killed and her it was her father

[00:25:14] who had to be heads all his family except for her because she had been married to puntaro

[00:25:23] and after that has to do sepica so you know in maricose and we've we've heard this before

[00:25:32] her armor is not served by being kept alive it's that she wants to end her own life

[00:25:42] in honor of what happened to the rest of her family but it is it needs totes lord totes courtesy

[00:25:50] and permission for her to do that and each year um puntaro effectively orders her to live

[00:25:59] and that she cannot do the thing that she wants to do most of all um so you know it's really kind

[00:26:06] of brutal absolutely the whole of this you know it is brutal and then you see that you know

[00:26:12] his violence towards her as well and how that spills out and and so but as he as he's pushing and

[00:26:19] pushing her to tell this story he's you know not only is she ashamed of the history because he's

[00:26:25] made her ashamed of it as well as everybody else you know she understood that her father was

[00:26:30] hunted down and then had to kill her entire family you know um for what he did she leaves the

[00:26:35] table because of her embarrassment and because of that then he takes that as a slice and beats her

[00:26:41] claiming that it's the sake that made him do it you know okay I don't I don't feel like this

[00:26:45] the first time she's been um she's been treated like this by puntaro to be honest I think she was

[00:26:50] expecting it but we learn again in the conversation later on with uh with um marico and and jane when

[00:26:57] he's trying to say to her you know don't ever feel bad about about this kind of stuff she's saying to

[00:27:02] him i give him nothing she's showing this is how she employs her eightfold fence um she keeps all

[00:27:09] of this back she gives him nothing she gives him no reaction to all of the treatment that he

[00:27:15] lays upon her and but quite a quite a major moment um jang throws puntaro extra um and puntaro pleads

[00:27:23] for forgiveness from john for this he falls to his knees apologizing saying it was the saki yeah

[00:27:29] I just stir the harmony of your your home yeah you know so yeah exactly it's um it's all really

[00:27:36] kind of messed up it's really it is but i probably really like it because there's that the tendency

[00:27:42] in these kind of situations if you're telling the story about you know this horrible thing of a

[00:27:46] husband beating his wife the tendency would make it would be to have him being really aggressive towards

[00:27:51] john not for him to be immediately carried an apologetic for ruining the honor of the household

[00:27:56] and ruining the harmony of the household it's not to do that so the writing here once again really

[00:28:01] strong and shogun where it's showing this absolute a hole what he's done and then how immediately

[00:28:07] he flips in a dime when he realizes what are you done as well i thought that was a really good choice

[00:28:12] to do here because it's a horrible horrible guy yeah no absolutely i mean the the thing is though this

[00:28:19] this whole situation comes to a head as well for marico and for for john black phone as well you know

[00:28:26] as you say you know she says i'll not give um my husband my hatred because that is what he merits

[00:28:33] but john black phone has kind of been really insistent here and he wants her to be free of this

[00:28:38] prison almost insults her and the idea of using their rules and she says you know you will also never

[00:28:46] be free of yourself if you're if you're constantly trying to find freedom and it's kind of

[00:28:50] harking back to his tale of why he wanted to be on the open ocean in a sense yeah and you know

[00:28:58] she as she says it is you who are imprisoned because you will never find freedom and when

[00:29:05] your constantly trying to look for it um you'll never be free of yourself and so he has she then

[00:29:11] says i will only be your translator from now now we will only speak words spoken um through

[00:29:18] other people effectively yeah so and i mean it's also you know it's to the interesting point that

[00:29:24] in this moment this is john black line it's a personal thing as well i think we have to be

[00:29:28] mindful of that in the sense that you know this kind of crap was happening in europe as well

[00:29:35] absolutely you know so it like the the thing is is maybe you know john black phone and being free

[00:29:44] seeing women with agency he needs sees that that's what she should have he can see her strength

[00:29:51] what she is doing what she is doing and she is happy with that you know and as she retorts it's like

[00:30:00] you also are imprisoned yes this is not just about me absolutely you can't judge me for this

[00:30:08] and i think that's really important that that kind of comes out which is absolutely absolutely

[00:30:11] and again you know john caused the stars of their to kick off really from puntero because he

[00:30:19] effectively requested that puntero treats his wife with more respect and the minute he did that

[00:30:26] that's when bantero turned and told her to tell her story to john so again he was he was at the

[00:30:31] forefront of that as well and it's quite a big scene and quite a quite a central moment of

[00:30:37] the of the episode i said it's got comedy in it's got uh it got real danger in there for what's

[00:30:42] going on in this household with the return of puntero i thought it was an excellently done

[00:30:47] part of the episode really really good oh absolutely yeah no it's really tense and really good

[00:30:53] but i think shall we get onto bushydo number three because yeah quick one here yeah because one of

[00:30:59] the other things that is happening in the village of aziru is you know they're searching

[00:31:06] yabashigi and uh army are looking for this spy they're still trying to search for it but we actually

[00:31:14] now we see tornagga going to speak with his spy down in between the rocks uh by the coast

[00:31:23] close to the the town or to the village and where all the pigeons are being kept hidden and

[00:31:31] you know it is one of tornagga's long serving samurai who we find out is the spy it is the

[00:31:38] fairly sort of genuine reflect um kind of fisherman who first saw black thorn shit

[00:31:46] but is his his faithful samurai toramato but as tornagga says no you are still to be known as

[00:31:55] miraji and he has you know his his spy name effectively has embedded into this village

[00:32:03] and importantly he's telling him here that they're effectively on his trail because they're going to put

[00:32:07] to get a two and two together that every time something happens that he's a rat and so he needs to find

[00:32:12] somebody else to take the blame somebody else to be seen as the spy in the village and this

[00:32:17] is where the stench of the pheasant that's causing huge consternation sort of plot with not now not

[00:32:24] only within the household but the village it's outside of the household gates that they can smell

[00:32:29] it so you know the the tail has gone round of this like grim fest happening and so weird isn't

[00:32:37] like we used aged me quite often like we need to carry a aged b-fold the time you know but this

[00:32:42] this idea that's not something that they would ever do in Japan the entire town would be affected

[00:32:48] by the stench of the rusting pheasant is it just that John's not good at accuring me so it's not

[00:32:54] that the thing or at ageing me so it's outside normally it would have to be in a dry place and

[00:33:02] it gets rains and awful lot you know it might be to do with that really but ultimately

[00:33:11] it ends up with John's gardener being killed because he is the one that took the pheasant

[00:33:20] and for that he dies and because of John Blackthorn's orders if anyone touches this they die

[00:33:28] and he's kind of like in total shock around this I love the fact that Mariko says to him

[00:33:34] because your words have meaning no it's because John Blackthorn is like gobsmacks he cannot

[00:33:40] believe any of this yeah it kind of confirms to him that he just needs to get out of this

[00:33:46] situation and his own respects and and his troubles you know as he says to Taro and Aga when he

[00:33:55] he says he believes he fulfills his duty you know I'm troubled by your whole country

[00:34:00] I want to to leave and be rid of this country of Japan and this is all spurred on by his gardener's death

[00:34:08] and and this is all ultimately used as a foil to throw the scent off the real spy by Miraji

[00:34:17] yeah yeah absolutely absolutely but just small point but it's interesting that that's in the

[00:34:22] background the whole time they know there's a spy in the village and they're trying to find two

[00:34:25] things but but an interesting one and we go on to Bushida number four the biggest surprise

[00:34:31] of the episode you have lots of people returning in this episode there should be big surprise

[00:34:36] moments but I was absolutely unprepared after last week when we had the very small earthquake

[00:34:42] yeah that should have been an idea that were in for a bigger earthquake coming but this was a

[00:34:47] shocking moment but she didn't know before earthquake and mudslide and this is massive absolutely

[00:34:54] I mean ultimately Lord Taro and Aga could have been killed here and he's totally swept away

[00:35:01] yeah and as the the ground beneath him gives gives out from the earthquake and he's you know he's swept

[00:35:10] away ultimately being saved by John Blackthorn and again you know second time that Blackthorn has

[00:35:20] saved Taro and Aga firstly getting him out of a sack but then now digging him out of the ground

[00:35:29] and he's been consumed by from the mudslides so but I mean what's really

[00:35:35] I think interesting here is that he not only saves him but by being buried Taro and Aga has lost

[00:35:44] his katana's and he doesn't have them to hand this is you know a state assemble absolutely this

[00:35:50] is a symbol of power of of a range of different things yeah and but like we like John gives him his

[00:35:59] katana's yes like we saw how important it is because when Blackthorn became Hathamoto they won't

[00:36:04] let him walk around with eight some swords on because that is part of the designation part of

[00:36:08] your position so he gives him those katanas and so that Taro and Aga still has swords at his size

[00:36:16] yeah and in his hands so this was really you know you can see that there was a deep meaning the

[00:36:22] hands but then it's almost quite so briefly done because then it pulls back and you see that

[00:36:32] Taro and Aga's army where is being where it's been camping a loss of it is currently being

[00:36:39] consumed by these mudslides oh let's the second that happened you turned around to me after after

[00:36:43] the scene happened on screen you just kind of went what the hell is happening we have to rewind it

[00:36:48] because literally this massive mudslide that takes like about half or maybe a quarter of this massive

[00:36:54] army that's just arrived in a zero the army that's supposed to support Taro and Aga's play and

[00:36:59] and supposed to take on these armies in Asaka and here we are in the background this massive

[00:37:05] mudslides coming down just wiping them all out and we saw how violent it is by seeing Taro and Aga

[00:37:11] being taken by it so you can imagine what's going on in the distance you know I think it's again

[00:37:16] an amazingly filmed moment in the episode really really good you know of sure they were they were

[00:37:21] thinking about all the horrible worldwide events that have happened with these type of natural

[00:37:28] disasters and we're putting it on screen at that moment when you're not really expecting there's

[00:37:33] so much personal dynamics going on in this episode I wasn't expecting something as massive as this

[00:37:38] as the earth to literally shake at everybody and to lose so many people yeah and it's one of those

[00:37:43] interesting things to do because I mean you know you get the sense of everything being quite

[00:37:48] carefully planned and crafted certainly by Taro and Aga you know and in some cases some quite

[00:37:53] sort of long established plans and strategies being sort of being active out here and and yet it's

[00:38:04] it's the abruptness of an intervention wholly unexpected wholly unplanned of a natural disaster

[00:38:13] through the earthquake in the mudslides and you know now we'll see that the metal here

[00:38:18] or of Taro and Aga and his allies because you know significant proportion of his army has probably

[00:38:26] been consumed in the mud and he's got to try and rebound from that and so it's really kind of that

[00:38:35] great sort of element here within the story of you know best laid plans you know can always

[00:38:42] sort of go awry through something completely out of your control like an earthquake so I

[00:38:48] really enjoyed that element to it what way to put your main character on the back foot absolutely

[00:38:54] I think the other thing just the little touch I really liked here and I think this is why I really

[00:38:59] like about this show you know because they go back to the village and the village has also been

[00:39:03] affected yeah this is obviously over a significantly larger area and the buildings of collapse fully

[00:39:10] or partially but I like that you know as they're sort of trying to deal with that mess from the

[00:39:17] earthquake back at Johns household that he honors his gardener by setting up the stones in

[00:39:27] in the garden after the earthquake and because we have that moment where the gardener tells him why

[00:39:33] he places the stones so specifically and the sand garden and so on and I kind of like that

[00:39:40] little touch absolutely given you know maybe maricose words just came through to John that well

[00:39:48] your words have meaning you're a hatter moto you have status in our world in in our culture and if

[00:39:56] you say that then that means something yes and you've got to be careful about the words you say yeah

[00:40:05] yeah absolutely and it was also important as well to have John check in on Fuji and make sure

[00:40:10] she was okay you know it's again he's part of her household and he does care and make and

[00:40:14] want to make sure that she's alive he may not be wanting to pillow with her but he is trying to take

[00:40:19] care of her right yeah I thought that was important as well and how about our last bushydo for the

[00:40:24] episode John absolutely onto bushydo number five the return of lady Ashiba yes now we we said

[00:40:33] earlier on that we're going to hold off what's happening in Osaka until we talked about this

[00:40:36] point because the return of lady Ashiba is a massive point Bush there are other things that are

[00:40:41] going on the sack amongst the ruling council yeah and it starts out with the return of the head

[00:40:49] of of josen to Ashido but there's an interesting element that's playing out where we have

[00:40:57] conversations among each of them about who the fifth member of of the the council is going to be

[00:41:03] now that they're trying to impeach and torenaga and they need somebody that will vote alongside

[00:41:09] them and impeach torenaga it can't be anybody but I really like the conversation where you have

[00:41:14] them some of the suggestions that are in there so they're suggesting one of the one of the

[00:41:19] lords be a kida and their response from Ashido saying he'll smell of countryside and then they

[00:41:25] mention the mention herisha and he goes it will smell of christianity and that it was it was oh no

[00:41:32] it was cousin maido and they say well he's syphiletic and then they look over at oh no who's got

[00:41:37] leprosy because no offense kind of thing but we don't need somebody's that but I love that each of

[00:41:42] them are picking off all of the possible and other the fifth member I guess of the council

[00:41:49] and then there's a really interesting piece that plays out of the episode goes on they all eat meals

[00:41:53] together while they discuss their plans and while they discuss their machinations and it was really

[00:41:59] interesting to see different members of the group making excuses and not appearing until eventually

[00:42:05] it's just Ashido on his own eating his food on his own I did it was something I didn't really

[00:42:10] notice the first time it was the episode but I guess that's what's happening they are fracturing

[00:42:14] and separating they aren't as unified as they were absolutely it was a really great way of just

[00:42:20] showing how this this council of regents was beginning to fracture and become disunited really

[00:42:27] and I think it then plays into lady ashiba coming back because she arrives back in a sack and it's

[00:42:35] you know ashido who's pleased that she is back here and you know she is the mother but it's also

[00:42:46] the way she comes back here because you know she fears for her son the air and you know as she says

[00:42:54] I'm alarmed that the council was outmaneuvered it's a real diplomatic way you know she

[00:43:01] she realizes that she was the as consort not not not is wife but consort because she bore the

[00:43:11] son the air you know so has a very special place it's very important because of that but

[00:43:18] she's also knows she's living in a world of a full email council and the supremacy of

[00:43:28] the paternal air and in a sense so you know it's just the the phrasing of it you know that

[00:43:36] outmaneuvered that there is threats to her son the obvious ones from taranaga but also she's kind

[00:43:43] of hinting at that maybe internal within within a sack out from the council and I just love the line

[00:43:52] that the time for politics has come to an end the council will answer to me so I mean it's like

[00:43:59] oh yeah hello ashiba yeah absolutely I like this character yeah really really good I love how

[00:44:05] she just does that with a shido as well and it's kind of like you know is this the threat to him or

[00:44:14] she just really in this way bringing him into her council because she sees him as a point of power

[00:44:24] all the most easily manipulators because I think that's the wonderful character here that we have

[00:44:30] with lady ashiba yes I think it is I think it is and I also wonder if she does feel there's any real

[00:44:36] threat to the air or well I guess she knows there's a threat to the air I date she thinks it's from

[00:44:41] taranaga no but I think it's hang on a second I'm coming back time for politics is over everybody's

[00:44:48] reporting to me I get the power now and even though technically she was not the wife of the taco

[00:44:55] she has an opportunity here is what it feels like absolutely so as she's going to take that

[00:44:59] opportunity right there she can play taranaga as the external threat and also that the council

[00:45:05] has allowed this to develop absolutely the air is threatened yeah you know and something needs

[00:45:11] to be done I kind of really really enjoy and enjoy that to be honest absolutely absolutely great

[00:45:19] stuff yeah I'll be looking forward to seeing how it plays out there in a second but some interesting

[00:45:22] movements there again it's just intriguing to see this council of regions are so misaligned

[00:45:28] you know they have this idea of taking out taranaga he's over on one side go and oh god how do I

[00:45:34] get myself out of this how do I how do I sorry today does not like he's it's not like he's panicking

[00:45:38] but he must be a bit worried losing a significant part of his army to a most like thinking this was

[00:45:44] going to be you know the stand they were gonna have against the army from Osaka and here they are

[00:45:49] in Osaka all fighting amongst themselves all unable to sit down for a meal together let alone

[00:45:54] decide on what the actual plan for the future is and in steps lady a chi bat yeah absolutely

[00:46:00] too throw another cat amongst the pigeons in the soccer great stuff oh I absolutely love watching

[00:46:07] the show I have no idea what's coming around the quarter every week we turn it on you get about

[00:46:12] halfway through the episode never written you know two pages of notes of the episode and then I

[00:46:16] still have another two pages to write before we get to the end of the episode so much going on it's

[00:46:21] so exciting yeah just not knowing what's gonna happen would you have predicted that we're gonna

[00:46:25] get an earthquake in a mudslide knowing happening no nice it's so rich it's so multi layers and it's

[00:46:33] really really good so yeah it's just the fact that they can do you know those small moments like

[00:46:38] Bontaro and John and Marie co and Fuji in a room and making it really really tense and then they

[00:46:44] can also have these massive moments like even just the arrival of the massive army that alone the

[00:46:49] earthquake I mean for me the show is absolutely excellent and I think I mean you know watch the

[00:46:56] episodes a number of times yes because with the subtitles sometimes you just miss certain things

[00:47:01] you know need to watch them through and then you watch it through almost to to be able to get

[00:47:09] the the full meaning yeah what and to make sure that the notes are complete you know because otherwise

[00:47:14] you miss something and and so and each time I could just keep watching this show again and again it's

[00:47:21] really really epic and at the same time kind of quite deep and personal and I mean that's always

[00:47:28] great with epic you know whether it's movies or shows it is that epic sweep that grandness

[00:47:36] at the same time the intimate moments the the fact that these moments of greatness that these

[00:47:42] epic moments hinge on interpersonal relationships absolutely and the machinations that go on you know

[00:47:49] so it's absolutely superb yeah and any notes Derek for this episode I think I think I think we

[00:47:56] talked about everything I want to talk about in the episode and I mean Bushido points today

[00:47:59] to from you John no nothing from me but I would give this five stinky fesons out of five

[00:48:06] as I really loved this episode one feson can stink at 10 five stink five would be a disaster how

[00:48:13] about five well freshly aged fesons that's much to stinky fesons we don't want stinky fesons but it was

[00:48:21] it was the thing is the thing I loved about the feson is the it was this gag ultimately it's about

[00:48:29] what is the barbarian doing yeah why is he doing it the consternation it causes

[00:48:36] initially with Fuji Mariko and the household and then into the wider village and then ultimately

[00:48:44] ends with a real sort of sad moment because all this stuff being lost between them even though

[00:48:52] John Blackstone has been there for some time now has been given the position of Hata moto

[00:48:58] he is still hasn't understood that position and the meaning his words even though they were off

[00:49:08] the corp around if anyone touches that they die yeah and it was probably because it was the

[00:49:13] anyway he could push it across with his dare I say it pigeon and Japanese yeah so it kind of ends

[00:49:22] off with this actually really sort of tragedy of the gardener being the one to take it and taking

[00:49:32] the rap and at the same time being used then by Toranaga and his spy as the full guy you know so

[00:49:40] I just thought it was a really great little thing going through this and through this episode

[00:49:46] absolutely absolutely absolutely but let us move on to our feedback for last week's episode

[00:49:54] yes and John's back with me for feedback the way we've been recording it last couple of weeks

[00:49:59] I've been on my own for feedback and our wonderful fellow warriors have been keeping me company

[00:50:04] every week just excellent stuff yeah excellent so you missed out on the announcement that's

[00:50:08] nine million people watch the premiere episode which is massive apparently 1.8 million homes in

[00:50:13] the US tuned in that first week to watch it so massive massive viewership and confirmation

[00:50:18] that we're only getting one season because the show is sticking close to the book and we'll end

[00:50:23] exactly the same put away as the that's the book ended and they said they've wrote nothing

[00:50:27] for a second season okay good to know and so this is a big one-off show yeah now we know it now

[00:50:33] which is good at least chips all in yeah exactly very good but let's get on to our feedback

[00:50:38] first up over on Facebook we got some feedback in from Jamie Loughton who says again

[00:50:43] this series still holds my undivided attention to storyline diverges and then convergesable

[00:50:47] what was written in the novel and what has been seen in the 80s TV series the writers have

[00:50:51] managed to bring fresh interpretations to an already well known at least to me tale I'd also like

[00:50:56] to add that I am literally on the edge of my seat watch in this series there again that could be

[00:51:00] due to my age and eyesight as I don't want to miss anything while reading the subtitles which as

[00:51:05] you pointed out before are brilliantly edited so is enough to be missed by being shown on a light

[00:51:09] background as sometimes happens on other movies or shows excellent stuff Jamie yes I mean it is

[00:51:16] undivided attention absolutely the right way to describe it and I think for book readers people

[00:51:24] who watch the 80s series but also those coming fresh in it it really is such brilliantly sort of

[00:51:33] woven show yeah that just builds intrigue attention trepidation you name it it's

[00:51:41] that high stakes political gamble and maneuvering which is just so good and just the backdrop of

[00:51:49] just a beautifully rendered um Japan and all the design the costumes everything really really

[00:51:58] good yeah totally agree absolutely Jamie I've completely agree with you it's just I have no idea what's

[00:52:02] coming next but it's interesting having read the book as you have it's interesting that they're still

[00:52:07] able to keep your attention as well until you're not expecting what's coming next as well good stuff

[00:52:11] thanks Jamie yeah thanks Jamie Victor on Doom say is this series continues to impress it truly

[00:52:18] belongs on the big screen the mafia co-signostra et al have nothing on what's going on in 1600s Japan

[00:52:26] the beginning of marico and john black thorns low sorry against the coming war is gripping

[00:52:31] I look forward to it really hitting the fan when toronago returns with love to have seen sunny chiba

[00:52:38] r.i.p in the role of yabushigi that's an interesting idea sunny chiba in the role of yabushigi

[00:52:45] i really only know uh sunny chiba from his western work he was in kill bill um you spoke

[00:52:51] to the bride he was he played the sushi chef yes and eventually he was the the maker of her sword in

[00:52:57] kill bill so i remember sunny chiba for that i know he was a big action star in the 70s i think he

[00:53:02] featured in in true romance as well if i remember my my tarantino movies so i haven't seen the huge

[00:53:08] bed of the movies but that would be an interesting choice i do love the actor playing yabushigi

[00:53:12] in in show them yeah it's one of those ones think think back to the first episode what the way

[00:53:18] we're introduced to him he was a character who was burning someone alive to find out their last

[00:53:22] words before they died and now as the episodes go on you're kind of roozing for him to navigate

[00:53:27] and survive what's going on around him you know um so how you go from someone that will boil

[00:53:33] someone alive in the first episode someone that you're kind of source of roozing for by the first

[00:53:37] by the fifth episode is really interesting so not many actors can pull that off yeah excellent

[00:53:41] self thanks victor thanks victor uh dr bob filips says beautifully shot again and the beauty of

[00:53:46] the shooting was certainly the main storyline here with cannon consort and carnage the baby earth

[00:53:51] quake i think is the very grand under their feet signaling the uncoming doom the acting of marico

[00:53:58] is superb her tortured soul the icy flashbacks and the burgeoning romance she's such an interesting

[00:54:04] character much more so than black thorn at the moment yeah absolutely i mean i can really see that

[00:54:09] i mean in some ways as well i guess for europeans or or westerners john black thorn is that

[00:54:16] typical point of view almost swashbuckling you know from that period in terms of what we already know

[00:54:23] and i think certainly it's the two of those positions as well and it amplifies marico

[00:54:29] yeah in terms of her wisdom and everything that she um has with dealing with john black thorn

[00:54:37] yeah yeah i think it's an interesting three hander really in the show you know john black thorn is

[00:54:41] obviously a central character as you say you meet him first he's the first major character you meet

[00:54:45] but it really is uh marico toranaga and john black thorn story learning about each of those

[00:54:51] and that the supported characters around them i think each episode you can kind of pick which is

[00:54:56] your favorite character i suppose as the show is going on but marico is so interesting to watch

[00:55:00] especially this discussion in this episode of the uh the eightfold fence and last week's episode sorry

[00:55:05] of the eightfold fence i thought that was the most interesting insight to her as a character because

[00:55:10] on the surface she will not let you know what's going on but underneath she has her own plans which

[00:55:15] is her own ideas and what how she will survive this world as well so uh yeah she's fascinating really

[00:55:21] really good thanks dr bob yeah thanks dr bob jo herbas says great show but i do have a question

[00:55:27] nitpick about the episode i can't remember if this came up in the discussion of the last episode

[00:55:32] but how would marico be able to translate black thorns logbook he's an englishman piloting a dutch

[00:55:39] ship so he's not going to record things in portuguese language of his enemies which is what he uses

[00:55:45] to speak with marico no one in japan knows english or dutch yeah this is an interesting one i was

[00:55:52] having to have an i think about this i was uh talking to you as well about after his comment um

[00:55:57] so what happens if you remember uh rudderie guys takes the logbooks and gives them to the portuguese

[00:56:03] and then they're get they get given back to toranaga so i feel like they've done some translation on

[00:56:08] us and she's reading some notations that are in the logbook she's not reading the logbook directly so

[00:56:14] they may have translated it into portuguese potentially or into some of the language that she um

[00:56:18] that marico reads i think uh jo was saying that it's potentially they're written in Latin

[00:56:23] and because she's catholic and studying latin which you would at the time when you're

[00:56:28] uh when you're um learning how to how to do a worship and catholicism of all would have been

[00:56:33] Latin so i think they've already translated some of them uh so she's getting uh their translation

[00:56:39] of the logbook which in itself could be quite dangerous because remember again john black thorn is

[00:56:44] an enemy of the portuguese so they may have translated it to make it what he's actually doing even

[00:56:49] worse than what the logbooks are saying maybe you know so potentially marico's reading of the books

[00:56:54] is influenced by the portuguese which i think is an interesting choice as well um but i don't think

[00:56:59] she's translating english i think it is stuck she's getting some idea of the books from what

[00:57:04] yeah and i think it will be in Latin absolutely yeah yeah yeah but an interesting idea is not

[00:57:10] yeah that's something that i didn't think about at the time uh no i didn't actually so good good

[00:57:14] pulled their show yeah excellent good stuff joe good sposs and thanks so much fellow warriors for

[00:57:20] your feedback great to hear your thoughts about this uh epic show and i can keep them coming in of course

[00:57:26] yeah i'll go i'll get john up speed on the uh the feedback that you've been sending in over the last

[00:57:30] couple episodes so you can see your wonderful thoughts keep sending them in you can email us two

[00:57:34] feedback at tvpodcastindustries.com with any thoughts you might have about show them or any of the other

[00:57:39] shows that we cover of course and you can join us over on our facebook group at facebook.com slash

[00:57:43] groups slash tvpodcastindustries there's a spoiler post up there for each episode as it's released

[00:57:48] and we of course uh talk about your feedback on the next episode back to Derek and john in the past

[00:57:53] to say goodbye for the episode bye bye that's it for this episode of our chat about shogun

[00:58:00] chapter five oh i cannot wait for next week when we can talk about chapter six ja yeah absolutely

[00:58:06] cannot wait for the next episode we will be back for our chat all things shogun chapter six

[00:58:14] ladies of the willow world yes absolutely thanks so much for joining us let's talk to next time

[00:58:20] yeah thank you so much fellow warriors for joining us remember in the meantime and until chapter six

[00:58:27] keep watching and keep listening bye bye