Penguin Wrap Up

[00:00:00] This is the Penguin Podcast on TV Podcast Industry.

[00:00:03] This time we'll be announcing the winner of our Iceberg Lounge Pub Quiz and discussing

[00:00:07] the making of the Penguin.

[00:00:10] I've always sought to make it feel operatic in ways, to have it feel very tragic in the

[00:00:15] end.

[00:00:15] So even when Oz succeeds and even when Oz gets everything he wants, I wanted it to feel tragic.

[00:00:19] He created his own delusion in that way.

[00:00:22] It's a very twisted, twisted way to end.

[00:00:51] Welcome back fellow Gothamites to our Penguin Podcast on TV Podcast Industries.

[00:00:55] We're finally going to announce the winner of our Iceberg Lounge Quiz and chat about the

[00:01:00] making of the Penguin, a half hour video from HBO that's available on YouTube.

[00:01:05] I am one of your hosts, Derek.

[00:01:06] Hello there fellow Gothamites and of course fellow Waddlers.

[00:01:10] I am one of your other hosts, John.

[00:01:13] Welcome to this wrap up episode.

[00:01:16] We'll be quizzing away, giving you the answers to the Iceberg Lounge Pub Quiz as well as, yeah,

[00:01:23] as Derek said, looking into the making of the Penguin.

[00:01:28] Absolutely.

[00:01:29] They wrote words and they told people to stand somewhere and they shot it.

[00:01:33] Yes, exactly.

[00:01:34] Then they edited it.

[00:01:35] And then they did lots and lots of visual effects as we'll talk about.

[00:01:39] Very good.

[00:01:40] We're doing this a little earlier than we had planned.

[00:01:43] We were planning to do our Agatha All Along wrap up episode this week, but unfortunately

[00:01:47] Chris is unavailable.

[00:01:49] He's our other host on our Agatha All Along podcast.

[00:01:51] So you've got a little bit more time if you want to get your answers in to the Agatha

[00:01:54] All Along Cauldron Coven Quiz.

[00:01:56] If you want to enter that, we should be doing that podcast next week.

[00:02:00] Indeed we shall.

[00:02:02] And of course, fellow Gothamites, we will also be covering the third season of Marvel's

[00:02:08] What If?

[00:02:10] Yeah.

[00:02:10] Over on Defenders podcast.

[00:02:13] Yep.

[00:02:14] And on this main feed on TV Podcast Industries as well.

[00:02:17] That'll be coming out from the 22nd of December, coming out every day for eight days.

[00:02:22] Not exactly sure how we're going to cover that because, well, it's holiday time.

[00:02:25] So I'm not sure, but we will definitely cover all that episode.

[00:02:28] It is.

[00:02:29] It's Crimbo.

[00:02:31] It will be.

[00:02:32] It will be.

[00:02:33] John, so after the Penguin finished up, we did have a look at some of the other reviews

[00:02:37] and reactions out there.

[00:02:38] It seems to have gone down really well overall.

[00:02:40] I think the final episode rated the highest of the season, or one of the highest of the

[00:02:44] season.

[00:02:45] Yeah.

[00:02:45] Like, there's a lot of praise for this show, and I think it's really, really justified.

[00:02:50] I mean, I don't see objectively how you could say that it isn't excellent.

[00:02:57] And if subjectively it's your thing and you like that kind of stuff, then that just makes

[00:03:04] it all the more better.

[00:03:06] Yeah.

[00:03:06] It might not be your stick for sure, but that's just personal choice.

[00:03:11] But I think it's really well deserved, the praise of this series.

[00:03:16] And for me, it's the centering around quite a low-key type of relationship, really, which

[00:03:23] is in the vein of Victor and Oz Cobb, really.

[00:03:29] Absolutely love Sophia, and I absolutely love Francis Cobb.

[00:03:37] But actually, the unknown, the unexpected of Victor's relationship, and ultimately how

[00:03:47] that evolves and develops over the course of this series, I just found really, really

[00:03:55] fascinating.

[00:03:56] Yeah.

[00:03:57] You know, as well as the usual stuff for sure.

[00:04:01] And I think as well then, after that, it is that core foursome of the Penguin, Francis

[00:04:10] Cobb, Sophia Falcone, or Gigante, and Victor.

[00:04:16] Absolutely.

[00:04:16] I just think they were superb and absolutely crushed it.

[00:04:21] They loved it.

[00:04:22] Excellent characters.

[00:04:23] Excellent characters.

[00:04:23] Not everybody loved the show, of course.

[00:04:25] There are bad reviews out there as well.

[00:04:28] I think one made headlines, which was IGN's review, which gave it five out of ten.

[00:04:33] A ridiculous score.

[00:04:34] I saw about 500 posts.

[00:04:35] I remember lots of IGN groups.

[00:04:37] I saw about 500 posts from people going, how can they possibly give this, that kind of review

[00:04:41] score?

[00:04:42] Yeah, it was a little weird, given the individual episodes.

[00:04:46] Yeah.

[00:04:46] In fact, I think all of them were scored above five.

[00:04:51] Yeah.

[00:04:51] So, I mean, I get it.

[00:04:52] They can go, well, overall, the series didn't work.

[00:04:56] But I suspect that would start to filter into the episodic scores.

[00:05:02] Exactly.

[00:05:02] The overarching season sort of narrative and story arc wasn't working out.

[00:05:08] So, yeah, kind of a bit weird.

[00:05:10] Yeah.

[00:05:11] I think IGN have kind of gone past their time as a reliable site for TV reviews.

[00:05:16] Yeah, I agree.

[00:05:16] They used to have a great set of TV reviewers when Matt Fowler was there.

[00:05:19] Definitely.

[00:05:19] When Eric Ogden were there.

[00:05:20] And they really had a good eye on TV and what people were interested in.

[00:05:24] But it seemed like this just went completely against what most people's opinion was.

[00:05:28] I think they also do a lot of clickbait headlines.

[00:05:31] Well, sometimes.

[00:05:32] And, you know, there's always the argument of that.

[00:05:33] If you don't do clickbait headlines, people aren't going to go to your website.

[00:05:36] And that's what they need people to do.

[00:05:38] So, they make their money.

[00:05:39] But crazy ones.

[00:05:40] Like, easy clickbait.

[00:05:42] Like, you know, it would be like, we hated da-da-da-da-da.

[00:05:47] And then immediately in the kind of front paragraph, we hated the da-da-da-da-da not.

[00:05:54] You know, or something like that.

[00:05:55] Like, rather than doing a clickbait thing that's positive.

[00:05:59] Yeah.

[00:05:59] What was the one this week?

[00:06:01] The new Dune TV show just kicked off.

[00:06:03] They've one episode in and they've said, Dune 2 was one of the best movies of the year.

[00:06:07] How is this show so boring?

[00:06:09] And it's one episode in of a setup of an eight-episode series.

[00:06:12] But anyway, I'm not going to spend any more time talking about what IGN thought of the show.

[00:06:17] Because they seem to be so far off what most people thought.

[00:06:20] What I absolutely loved about this series, the fundamental thing I loved, which I think is really different.

[00:06:25] And I'm glad to see it, is this was a villain origin story.

[00:06:29] How a villain, how a bad guy became a villain.

[00:06:31] Not how a good guy became bad and then became a villain.

[00:06:35] He's a bad guy right from the start.

[00:06:37] We see the earliest life of Oz Cobb, killing his brothers and then becoming a further and further villain.

[00:06:43] And not even a guy who's gray.

[00:06:48] And I like those kind of stories, the grayness.

[00:06:51] But he is inherently evil and bad.

[00:06:54] And in the end, he plays that out even with his comatose mother.

[00:07:02] Exactly.

[00:07:03] As well as a whole rake of other people that he's either worked with or tried to dispose of.

[00:07:13] I mean, it's not even about the killing.

[00:07:16] Say, yes, he kills Victor.

[00:07:18] That's shocking.

[00:07:19] It's awful.

[00:07:19] And I don't want to see that.

[00:07:21] I want them to sort of team up and so on.

[00:07:23] But that's, you know, the motivation for Oz absolutely makes sense.

[00:07:27] And then equally, you would go, well, then he would kill Sophia.

[00:07:33] But actually, no, the real twist of the knife is putting her back into Arkham where she was imprisoned for 10 years in an unjust way.

[00:07:43] That's way worse.

[00:07:44] It's way worse.

[00:07:45] Like, so he's just really, really sadistic in that sense.

[00:07:51] Yep.

[00:07:51] And if you're on the side of Oz Cobb by the end of the season, if you think he's a good guy at the end of the season, there is no redemption arc here.

[00:07:57] Even Colin Farrell, as we said, had said from the beginning, you are going to hate Oz by the eighth episode.

[00:08:03] That's the purpose of the series.

[00:08:05] And I think that's why Victor's story worked for me, because he was almost, even though, yes, they were running crime gangs and selling drugs and all this.

[00:08:14] It was this idea that this kid who down on his luck lost his family, being entrusted with really important elements of Oz's life, in particular his mother, and comes through for Oz, rallies the troops for Oz.

[00:08:29] And ultimately his reward is being killed by Oz.

[00:08:33] Yep, because he got too close.

[00:08:34] And it would make him too weak.

[00:08:36] Exactly.

[00:08:37] Because he does actually care for Victor.

[00:08:40] Mm-hmm.

[00:08:41] So that's the level of bad we're talking about.

[00:08:46] Exactly, exactly.

[00:08:47] I think that's it for final thoughts on the episode.

[00:08:49] We'll talk again about the making of as we go into later on the episode.

[00:08:52] We're going to start out with our pub quiz and our answers for our Iceberg Lounge pub quiz for the Penguin.

[00:09:02] Yes, welcome to the Iceberg Lounge pub quiz, fellow Gothamites and fellow quizzes.

[00:09:09] Yes, this was a doozy of a pub quiz.

[00:09:14] There were some fun questions in there.

[00:09:15] Yeah.

[00:09:15] I'll point out some of the ones that may have caused some challenges as we go in, Zoll.

[00:09:20] But I do think we should have gotten a drink at least for this one.

[00:09:23] I think so.

[00:09:24] We should have at least gotten a gin and tonic or a rum and coke or something to go along with our pub quiz, shouldn't we?

[00:09:29] We should have done.

[00:09:30] Alas, I do have a bottle of water.

[00:09:33] You don't have water.

[00:09:33] Oh, well.

[00:09:34] Anyway.

[00:09:35] Never mind.

[00:09:36] Let's get into our questions and answers.

[00:09:38] John, do you want to give the first question an answer?

[00:09:40] Yes.

[00:09:41] Question one.

[00:09:41] What drink does Sophia Falcone order at the meal with Oz Cobb?

[00:09:46] And how many olives?

[00:09:48] The answer is a dirty, doughty martini with three olives.

[00:09:55] I really do like that.

[00:09:57] And this was one of the ones that was a gif and a clip that came out from the episode specifically calling out exactly what the drink was.

[00:10:05] So this was a very easy one.

[00:10:08] On this second episode, our second question, what herb does the penguin not like and gets Victor to pick out of the tacos that he's ordered?

[00:10:15] The answer was cilantro or coriander for us non-Americans.

[00:10:19] I'm totally with him as well.

[00:10:21] I love coriander.

[00:10:23] It ruins a lot of meals.

[00:10:25] No, it doesn't.

[00:10:26] There you go.

[00:10:26] I like it in the leaf form and in the seed form.

[00:10:30] I like it in the seed form.

[00:10:31] Yeah, I like crushed coriander.

[00:10:33] Always good.

[00:10:34] Excellent stuff.

[00:10:36] On to question three.

[00:10:37] What does Oz order from the menu when out for dinner with Victor?

[00:10:43] It is cock o'van.

[00:10:46] Yeah, I thought this...

[00:10:47] It's a cock that's been run over by a van.

[00:10:51] Well, I thought this question was a fun one because you're concentrating so much on what Victor's ordering because of that situation that you may have forgotten that Victor was very quick in ordering his meal.

[00:11:01] So cock o'van.

[00:11:02] Yes, cock o'van.

[00:11:03] Excellent.

[00:11:04] Derek, give us question four, will you?

[00:11:06] The fourth question was, what food does Sophia Falcone use to tempt Maya into the greenhouse for the sleepover?

[00:11:13] And it is a piece of cake.

[00:11:16] Chocolatey, full of extra frosting.

[00:11:18] I think you've had a corner piece, she says.

[00:11:19] But we'll take cake in any of its forms.

[00:11:21] I would give up being gassed for a piece of chocolate cake, for sure.

[00:11:26] Do you know what I've worked out while we're doing these questions, John?

[00:11:28] Yeah.

[00:11:29] While we're going back over them.

[00:11:30] I've worked out that because we record before we have dinner, almost every question has to do with food.

[00:11:35] And there's more to come.

[00:11:36] Absolutely.

[00:11:36] But not the next question.

[00:11:38] John, question five.

[00:11:38] Yes.

[00:11:39] What are the two line numbers shown on the trolley carriages in the station that Oz and Victor make as their base of operations at Crown Point?

[00:11:50] The answer is the North Line 58 and also Line 23.

[00:11:57] This was a tough one.

[00:11:58] It was a tough one.

[00:11:59] Because Line 23 is only seen on screen for a quick second.

[00:12:02] And we didn't want confusion when we asked the question of what's the line number on the trolley carriage.

[00:12:09] Because the main one is North Line 58.

[00:12:11] That's where Oz kills Sal Moroney later on in the episode.

[00:12:13] I think you only see Line 23 on screen for a second.

[00:12:16] So what I've done is if you've given just Line 58 in your answer, you've got the answer right.

[00:12:21] You've got your point.

[00:12:22] Well, we did put Line 23 in brackets as also because it was very, very quick.

[00:12:29] Exactly.

[00:12:29] Yeah.

[00:12:31] Derek, give us the question for Episode 6, please.

[00:12:33] Our foodie question for Episode 6 is what is the dish that Sal Moroney cooks for Sophia Falcone?

[00:12:39] And what did his son Taj add to it to make it better?

[00:12:43] The answer for that is Koresh Badamjan, a Persian stew with aubergine tomatoes and meat.

[00:12:48] And Taj added yogurt to it to make it taste better.

[00:12:52] And that's what Sophia agrees it tastes better with the yogurt.

[00:12:54] Yes, indeed.

[00:12:56] On to question 7.

[00:12:58] What movie did Oz say his brothers, Jack and Benny, were going to see?

[00:13:03] The answer is Beetlejuice, which, of course, starred a former Batman in the shape of Michael Keaton.

[00:13:12] Yeah.

[00:13:13] I thought that was a nice touch.

[00:13:13] So it set it perfectly in 1988, 89 when the movie was released.

[00:13:18] So it sets it back in time.

[00:13:20] But I thought, nice little touch.

[00:13:21] What movie would be out that year?

[00:13:23] And could it star a Batman?

[00:13:26] Well, absolutely.

[00:13:27] Like it.

[00:13:27] Yeah.

[00:13:28] Excellent stuff.

[00:13:29] And now our final question from the series.

[00:13:34] Question 8.

[00:13:34] Derek, take it away.

[00:13:36] Yeah.

[00:13:36] Our final question was, where does Sophia meet Mr. Zhao to exchange Oz Cobb?

[00:13:42] Because she can't meet him at her burning house.

[00:13:44] She meets him at Goodwin International Airport Hangar 5.

[00:13:48] Excellent stuff.

[00:13:49] That's where the final showdown takes place and the killing of Mr. Zhao and leading to the death of all the heads of all the other gangs in Gotham.

[00:13:58] So a pretty big, pretty big moment.

[00:14:00] Absolutely.

[00:14:01] Lots of correct answers on there.

[00:14:02] Yeah.

[00:14:02] Great stuff.

[00:14:03] And we tallied all the correct entries and everybody got all the questions right.

[00:14:07] Is going into the hash to win some Penguin goodies.

[00:14:10] We got correct entries in from Coffee and Vodka, Victor Sellers, Cody Mellinger, Will Walton, Isadora Mea, and Philippe Ferencia.

[00:14:19] Well done for those entries and for everybody else who sent in your answers to us as well.

[00:14:24] Well done for entering.

[00:14:25] Yeah.

[00:14:26] These questions can be really tough.

[00:14:28] Sometimes you need to have the subtitles on, you know, and other times like for question five.

[00:14:36] Yeah.

[00:14:36] It's just an element of it is really quick on screen.

[00:14:41] Absolutely.

[00:14:42] And something that was pointed out to me by one of our listeners for a different pub quiz, the Agathol on pub quiz.

[00:14:49] And some people do watch episodes of TV shows on their phones, which I have never done.

[00:14:55] I've never sit down and watch a full hour long episode of a show on my phone.

[00:14:59] And they say it's very different when you're trying to pause your screen for that one second shot of a picture in the background.

[00:15:07] Quite difficult to catch some of the answers.

[00:15:09] So sorry about that.

[00:15:10] If you're watching on your phone, it might make it even more difficult.

[00:15:13] That's true.

[00:15:13] I mean, although sometimes it's not that easy to do it on the TV.

[00:15:19] Oh, absolutely.

[00:15:20] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:15:20] But I would say having it on a phone, which is not the optimal experience, maybe a bit darker times.

[00:15:25] Well, that's true.

[00:15:26] That is true.

[00:15:27] It'd be like doing it on in-flight TV.

[00:15:30] Exactly.

[00:15:31] Exactly.

[00:15:32] Could be a problem.

[00:15:33] But well done for all of you who've entered.

[00:15:35] Get off your phones, fellow Gothamites, and slob on the couch.

[00:15:39] Exactly.

[00:15:40] Exactly.

[00:15:41] But that means we have six correct entrants.

[00:15:43] So, hey, Google, give me a number between zero and six.

[00:15:50] Three.

[00:15:50] Three.

[00:15:51] Congratulations, Cody Mellinger.

[00:15:53] Yeah, well done, Cody Mellinger.

[00:15:55] Congratulations for taking the crown of Gotham for this Iceberg Lounge pub quiz.

[00:16:04] Yeah, well done.

[00:16:04] And well done to everyone else.

[00:16:06] You know, it's really good to get people sending in their quiz answers to us on our pub quizzes.

[00:16:15] Absolutely.

[00:16:16] Lots of notes from people as well saying they really enjoy the pub quiz, especially for something like the penguins.

[00:16:20] So going back and re-watching the episodes to find those little moments.

[00:16:24] Cody, I'll be in contact with you to find out where you are, firstly, because that will help me determine what the penguin goodies are going to be,

[00:16:32] because some things I can't, unfortunately, send to some countries.

[00:16:35] So I'll find out where you are and then get some penguin goodies in the post here.

[00:16:39] Thanks so much to everybody for your entries for the penguin pub quiz, for the Iceberg Lounge quiz.

[00:16:44] Excellent stuff.

[00:16:45] With that, let us get on to the making of the penguin.

[00:16:51] There were two behind-the-scenes videos that came out from Max just after the episodes were released.

[00:16:56] The first one that we watched for this, I'll put the links to it into our show notes, so you'll be able to go to those and watch them there.

[00:17:02] The first one was Colin Farrell and Kristen Milioti reacting to the final two episodes.

[00:17:07] Just want to mention this here, it's about three minutes long,

[00:17:10] and I've never seen two more uncomfortable people being filmed during a reaction video,

[00:17:15] which is something that we've basically been doing for 10 years now, so I know we're experienced at it.

[00:17:19] And a lot of actors say they don't like watching themselves on screen.

[00:17:22] I think it's probably that, actually.

[00:17:23] So there's part of that, but Colin spent most of the time looking at Kristen Milioti

[00:17:29] and asking her various questions about how she prepared for it.

[00:17:33] Kristen Milioti says she had to pace herself while she was recording the additional dialogue,

[00:17:39] the post-work that they do on the show.

[00:17:42] She couldn't do all of it at the same time because it was really draining,

[00:17:45] so she hadn't even seen the final two episodes before at the time.

[00:17:49] And then when it started to ramp up and ramp up and the screaming of Deirdre O'Connell

[00:17:55] as Frances Cobb was going on in the background,

[00:17:56] you could see how uncomfortable Colin and Kristen were watching this episode.

[00:18:01] It was really funny watching the two of them because they are going,

[00:18:05] oh my God, I can't believe this is being put on screen almost.

[00:18:08] We might act in it, but we don't want to watch it.

[00:18:12] That's what it seemed like, didn't it?

[00:18:13] Absolutely.

[00:18:14] They're very proud of their work, very proud of everybody that's involved in the show,

[00:18:16] but I don't think they expected it to ramp up as much as it did,

[00:18:19] especially when you see Frances Cobb's finger being almost taken off her hand.

[00:18:26] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:18:26] Yeah.

[00:18:27] So I probably wouldn't recommend watching that unless you want to see the reaction of two people

[00:18:32] who really don't want to be there.

[00:18:35] What everybody wanted to be there for, though, was the making of The Penguin,

[00:18:38] a half-hour documentary available from the Mac's YouTube channel.

[00:18:41] Again, link will be in the show notes to have a look at that.

[00:18:44] This, I thought, was a really good wrap-up.

[00:18:47] You know, we often talk about the behind-the-scenes stuff,

[00:18:49] the making of that shows do, and a lot of it's kind of puff pieces.

[00:18:55] My new example of this is the Deadpool Wolverine making of that I watched,

[00:19:00] which is an hour of them patting each other on their back for the actors being there

[00:19:04] and for the writers writing the lines that they said,

[00:19:06] and there really isn't too much more to it.

[00:19:09] I love these types of ones where we have the costume designers,

[00:19:12] where we have the visual effects people,

[00:19:13] where we have the writers themselves as well,

[00:19:16] and the cast all talking about all of their contributions.

[00:19:19] Absolutely.

[00:19:20] I think it's also taking you through, I guess, those other bits of the production.

[00:19:26] You know, everyone kind of knows there's a director and a writer and the actors,

[00:19:31] and here it's to give space and breadth to the costume designer,

[00:19:38] the visual effects, the stunt coordination, the music composition, and so on.

[00:19:43] And I think they did that really well here.

[00:19:45] I really enjoyed how they split up this making of.

[00:19:49] I thought it really made sense.

[00:19:52] And it also means that you don't get kind of a lot of repetition,

[00:19:57] which you can get when you follow through effectively the series chronologically

[00:20:03] as you meet new things, new people, new locations,

[00:20:07] where you then come back to the costume designer,

[00:20:10] and it's like, well, this person in episode six.

[00:20:13] You know, I think that almost breeds in a bit of just repetition.

[00:20:18] It doesn't feel like you've got the whole thing here.

[00:20:21] They just go through the different areas of production.

[00:20:25] And I thought that was really, really nice.

[00:20:28] Absolutely.

[00:20:28] And I will say the official Penguin podcast has all of these people interviewed for much longer periods.

[00:20:36] There's like an hour-long one for every single episode of the show.

[00:20:39] It's really, really in-depth.

[00:20:40] It's fascinating stuff that came out of that as well.

[00:20:43] One of the things that came out of that, actually,

[00:20:45] Lauren LeFrancq was talking about how difficult it was for Colin in the makeup.

[00:20:49] He doesn't complain about it that much.

[00:20:50] He was kind of going, oh, it's three hours a day.

[00:20:52] Get myself ready.

[00:20:53] Get down to set.

[00:20:54] And it's fine.

[00:20:55] It's built into his day.

[00:20:56] I'm the first person to arrive.

[00:20:57] Last person to leave, along with the makeup team, of course.

[00:21:00] But she was saying that they really had to balance some of the scenes that they wrote

[00:21:04] and some of the scenes they were putting on screen as to whether Colin Farrell needed to be there or not.

[00:21:09] Because if you're filming a scene that's only a couple of lines,

[00:21:12] you need a reaction shot from Colin Farrell,

[00:21:13] it takes three hours to set up him just to be there for a reaction shot.

[00:21:18] So they had to make things feel really important.

[00:21:21] So one of the scenes they talked about specifically was him dressing Frances up in her finery.

[00:21:28] They were going to cut that scene because it would have meant him getting in his full makeup again

[00:21:33] just for the two of them to have this moment together.

[00:21:36] And they decided it was too important that they really wanted a Colin fault for it and said

[00:21:40] he had absolutely no problem spending time in the chair

[00:21:43] because he felt that scene was one of the most important in the season,

[00:21:46] even though it is just a character scene of him dressing his mom up in her in her finery

[00:21:50] after she's had the accident and asked him to take her life.

[00:21:55] But it's interesting that they had to consider that as well.

[00:21:57] It's something that you wouldn't think about.

[00:21:58] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:21:59] And I mean, hopefully they were able to kind of make some synergies

[00:22:05] and link up a few things whereby then it wasn't just for that.

[00:22:10] They could do that and another smaller piece so that ultimately he's not just spending six hours

[00:22:16] to get in and out of the prosthetics in order to do that scene.

[00:22:20] I mean, I know they take an awful lot of time to do the setup and so on.

[00:22:27] But I always feel like if Colin's in four o'clock in the morning to be ready for seven o'clock or whatever

[00:22:38] with three hours worth of prosthetics, I'm guessing that you would have the production team

[00:22:44] doing the set dressing or whatever it is as well.

[00:22:47] So, I mean, hopefully once you're good to go, you're good to go.

[00:22:49] And if you can have two locations being done, so, you know, I mean, I don't know.

[00:22:54] But I think, you know, they run pretty well.

[00:22:58] And that's in the end comes down to the production.

[00:23:02] So, yeah, really good.

[00:23:03] This does seem to be all hands on deck for the most part throughout the documentary.

[00:23:08] I think for a dialogue scene like that, though, even those couple of minutes probably takes a full day anyway just to capture it.

[00:23:15] So it was whether they added an extra day to production to do that or whether they just left a day off production.

[00:23:21] Yeah.

[00:23:21] But I thought that was an interesting one from the podcast.

[00:23:24] On here, one of the things I really liked was a comment from Matt Reeves who directed the Batman movie

[00:23:29] and obviously gave Colin Farrell his role as the Penguin in that movie.

[00:23:33] One of the interesting things he said carried over from the Batman movie was he wrote the lines, of course, for Colin to say,

[00:23:40] but he always gave him space to improvise, which is something that Colin brings to the role,

[00:23:44] that he improvises his moments because he's pretty unpredictable.

[00:23:47] And if you've seen any interviews with Colin Farrell, he's pretty unpredictable and where he's going to go.

[00:23:52] The only thing you can predict is he's definitely going to curse because he gives a dub to her after all.

[00:23:56] Yeah.

[00:23:56] That is our second language.

[00:23:57] No, I really like that as well.

[00:23:59] I also like that Lauren LaFranc as well as Matt Reeves also said that the Penguin is unpredictable.

[00:24:09] And that's what Colin is as well.

[00:24:12] And that improvisation that Colin did made it unpredictable for the people he was working for.

[00:24:20] Yeah.

[00:24:20] There's a really nice little moment where you have Shara Agadashloo who, you know, says,

[00:24:29] well, her and Colin Farrell are talking about the scene.

[00:24:33] Colin asks, you know, I want to sort of improvise here.

[00:24:37] I want to go full on in.

[00:24:39] Yeah.

[00:24:39] And she's like, go for it.

[00:24:40] And she was really excited to do that.

[00:24:43] I love Shara Agadashloo from The Expanse and so on, as well as being in Star Trek.

[00:24:50] So it was really good to get her thoughts on working with Colin Farrell.

[00:24:57] So that was really, really cool.

[00:24:59] And the other thing that came out from that was that I had no idea what Matt Reeves looked like.

[00:25:05] I thought he was kind of some kind of nerdy writer, a support writer.

[00:25:12] Doesn't he look like the Jim Gordon in your mind?

[00:25:15] Doesn't he look like, you know, Ben McKenzie with the mustache, basically?

[00:25:18] Yeah, I guess.

[00:25:19] I just didn't realize that it was until it flashed up on screen to say executive producer Matt Reeves.

[00:25:25] I was like going, ah, look, they've got the best boy or the grit talking.

[00:25:32] That's nice.

[00:25:33] No.

[00:25:33] Not quite that bad.

[00:25:35] But I thought that it was kind of a writer's room person, like a support writer in the writer's room and so on.

[00:25:44] Possibly the chief, you know, sort of backup writer or second director or something like that.

[00:25:50] I didn't realize it was Matt Reeves because I just had no notion of what Matt Reeves looked like.

[00:25:55] So that was good.

[00:25:56] Now I know and I will never make that mistake again.

[00:25:59] See, I think he looks like Jim Gordon.

[00:26:01] And so he's perfect for the role of guiding hand behind the Batman movies.

[00:26:06] One of the other things that I did like, again, from Laura Lafranque, she says that the action took place under arches.

[00:26:11] So they were trying to find spaces in Gotham which were below arches, below bridges.

[00:26:16] And because the kind of places where Batman would never go, you wouldn't see that in their version of Gotham with the Batman, which I just thought was really interesting.

[00:26:25] And when you look back at it, when you see the making of, you see how many scenes are under bridges and arches.

[00:26:30] All the meetings between characters, even Oz and his two brothers, they're running underneath bridges, running underneath arches.

[00:26:36] The meeting between Sophia and Oz is under arches as well.

[00:26:39] It's really interesting that they did that.

[00:26:41] Yeah.

[00:26:42] Johnny Vitti is being held captive in the arches of the Falcone family mausoleum.

[00:26:49] Exactly.

[00:26:50] Now, I really enjoyed that thematic sort of overarching touch that was kind of brought in here.

[00:26:57] Whereas in Batman, they very much were sort of shooting from above.

[00:27:04] And this was to show the underworld thematically then to put all these people in Gotham's underworld under something.

[00:27:14] Exactly.

[00:27:14] Whether it was the overhead railways, whether it was in the metro system of the trolleys,

[00:27:20] whether it was under arches in the mausoleum, it was all to try and sort of show that gritty underside of Gotham.

[00:27:33] And the main bit of kind of contrast to that was actually trying to show what true wealth looked like in contrast to that,

[00:27:43] which was the Falcons.

[00:27:45] Exactly.

[00:27:46] You know, primarily here.

[00:27:47] Yeah.

[00:27:47] Here.

[00:27:48] Yeah.

[00:27:48] And so, and I guess City Hall was another example of that where, you know, it felt vast.

[00:27:55] Even though you are under the dome of City Hall, the space was vast.

[00:27:59] Yeah.

[00:28:00] And yeah, it was kind of really good.

[00:28:03] Yeah.

[00:28:03] Yeah.

[00:28:03] I thought that was really cool.

[00:28:05] Even just the description of the opening shot where it comes from a very high point,

[00:28:09] like you would have Batman overlooking the city and then it drops all the way down to underneath the registration plate of Oz's car as he comes in.

[00:28:17] So you're already looking up at Oz from the ground, from the gutter, basically.

[00:28:21] So that's where you are.

[00:28:22] I thought that was really cool.

[00:28:23] That was really good.

[00:28:24] Yeah.

[00:28:24] Really good.

[00:28:24] Some of the other kind of elements that I really liked.

[00:28:27] I loved the visual effects discussion.

[00:28:30] Johnny Han was the visual effects supervisor for the show.

[00:28:32] So I felt that was absolutely incredible seeing the recreation of the flood coming through Crown Point.

[00:28:40] I just thought it was incredible.

[00:28:42] We talked before about the show being paused for a couple of months because of the writer's strike and director's strike that were going on.

[00:28:48] And it felt like the way Johnny was talking.

[00:28:51] And they never actually said it, of course.

[00:28:52] But it felt like as the visual effects people have a bit more time that every single day they were going in and spending more time developing those scenes.

[00:29:02] Seeing things like even bodies being underneath that water, dragging them along the street, being created by visual effects because they know it's in there.

[00:29:12] You may not necessarily see it on screen, but they know every single element that needs to be in there because the physics determines how the water is going to splash down the street.

[00:29:21] Absolutely.

[00:29:22] I think what I really liked about Johnny Han, you know, it kind of sets up right out the bat kind of the three directing principles for the visual effects.

[00:29:36] And like he says, it starts with the set dressings that, you know, the set dressings in the street, you know, with upturned cars, the fake snow, all this kind of stuff.

[00:29:46] And anything that moves with the stunt direction, that kind of dressing of the outdoor indoor set.

[00:29:52] Yeah.

[00:29:53] And the guiding principles, you know, is that it's lived in, it's real, it's tactile.

[00:29:58] It looks like that through the visual effects that are being layered onto the set dressings and also being layered onto real life locations in New York as Gotham.

[00:30:11] I mean, even with the car scenes, I really liked that they drove around New York and loads of different routes many times with the camera system so that they could get all the external shots that they could then play.

[00:30:30] And, you know, so like I think it was the Hudson Bridge as the Elliott Bridge and all this kind of stuff.

[00:30:35] And I thought that was really, really good.

[00:30:37] So that and do as many of those as possible and try and get the main routes that would be used again and again and again.

[00:30:45] Like to Zhao's club, you know, where Link and Zhao are.

[00:30:49] Yeah.

[00:30:50] Where you have, you know, the club where it goes down badly for Oz.

[00:30:56] You have the initial meeting of them with Oz, Sophia, with Link and Zhao.

[00:31:04] So all these different elements, I thought, were really, really good.

[00:31:08] And I just think it was really incredible, some of the recreations of this.

[00:31:15] I mean, this was like where they're actually doing visual effects of storefronts.

[00:31:23] So there's this really nice moment where they show a car driving on the street underneath one of the overhead railway lines in New York.

[00:31:34] As it turns on the corner, there is a, you know, fried chicken takeout joint on the corner there in real life.

[00:31:43] It's still there once all the visual effects have been layered in, except it is dirtier and it's got a different name.

[00:31:52] They've redone all the signage of it and they've made it kind of grubbier and dirtier.

[00:31:59] And it was really, really cool.

[00:32:01] I'd never really thought that you would redo the street frontage as visual effects.

[00:32:09] And that's effectively what they did.

[00:32:11] Yeah.

[00:32:11] So cool.

[00:32:12] So cool.

[00:32:13] I think one of the things I loved about seeing this is if I watched this show, I would think of it as the grounded TV show.

[00:32:21] Obviously a lower budget than movies, but it's the grounded TV show.

[00:32:24] There's no Batman gadgets in there.

[00:32:25] There's no massive explosions other than the huge flood, of course, in Crown Point, which we talked about.

[00:32:30] But how they use the special effects, how they use the visual effects, how they used all of the computer generated works to enhance this city of Gotham for the show was absolutely fascinating to me.

[00:32:44] I loved it.

[00:32:44] There's a constant argument about when you're going to use visual effects, use them to tell a better story.

[00:32:50] All of the people that do that when they're doing their sci-fi movies and when they're doing alien worlds, that kind of stuff, they talk about that's why we use special effects to enhance the story.

[00:33:01] Here's where you really see it.

[00:33:03] Absolutely.

[00:33:03] In the show like this, where they are trying to make Gotham look different from just a New York street where they filmed and they're going so in depth, just even changing the posters in the background using CGI is fascinating to me that they did that.

[00:33:18] Things you wouldn't even possibly pick up without seeing a making of a documentary like this were enhanced by CGI.

[00:33:25] And so well done.

[00:33:27] Again, everybody seems to be so involved in that vision of creating this world of Batman and Gotham for the show of the Penguin.

[00:33:34] It's cool.

[00:33:35] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:33:35] I think the other really interesting bit of action that the visual effects did, and primarily this time through the stunt coordinator, Stephen Pope, was the burning of Nadia and Taj.

[00:33:50] Wasn't that cool to watch?

[00:33:51] And it was really, really good because it's just that layering effect again, but this time with two actors.

[00:33:59] So when Taj comes out of the van, he's covered in water, but there is a little bit of gasoline so that when Oz throws the lighter down, you get that trail of flame.

[00:34:13] But then they kind of layer in a couple of things.

[00:34:17] So you had these two guys with a burning rope held by poles where they could take it from a line and then begin to wisp it around in different motions.

[00:34:28] And you'd have the flames burning up the rope.

[00:34:31] And that was being captured with six, effectively, Apple phones.

[00:34:37] iPhone 6s, yeah.

[00:34:38] iPhone 6s.

[00:34:38] iPhone Pros.

[00:34:39] So that they could...

[00:34:41] iPhone 6, I think, is very often.

[00:34:42] I don't think you can get a camera on that one.

[00:34:44] So they could create a 3D map, but they did that also then with the actors who play Nadia and Taj.

[00:34:54] So they would do the performance and that would be captured.

[00:34:59] And then as they do the flames and so on, they're never actually a light.

[00:35:04] And there's no actual traditional stuntman being put into a suit and sets of lights.

[00:35:11] This is the stunt coordinators doing it in a different way with real flame and using real flame on rope and working with then the computer generated effects in order to capture that effectively and translate that into a modeled realistic capture.

[00:35:33] So it's not even computer generated.

[00:35:35] It's a capture of Nadia and Taj as though they are burning and that being recreated through that capture in 3D by the six iPhones, effectively.

[00:35:47] And it was really fascinating.

[00:35:49] I really, really enjoyed that.

[00:35:50] Yeah.

[00:35:51] Yeah.

[00:35:51] Love the visual effects.

[00:35:53] And again, I'm sure there could be tons more behind-the-scenes stuff.

[00:35:56] And definitely, this is one I would love to see go for awards for the work they did now that I've seen all the stuff they did.

[00:36:04] And of course, the big visual effect that we've talked about throughout the series is Oz Cobb.

[00:36:09] Absolutely.

[00:36:10] You know.

[00:36:11] And again, really, really interesting just that the commitment to the character to be, you know, three hours getting ready, a couple of hours to sort of be taken out of the prosthetics.

[00:36:24] And I mean, huge number of different interviews with Colin Farrell where he's describing that.

[00:36:30] But, you know, it's really, really interesting.

[00:36:33] And what I like about here is, you know, Colin talks about other things, like whether it's doing the improvisation within that and doing the whole scene with Francis Cobb and putting the necklace around.

[00:36:48] Yeah.

[00:36:48] Yeah.

[00:36:49] But also, you know, those kind of elements to it, really.

[00:36:54] Yeah.

[00:36:54] And also, he says that there would be no Penguin Show without that makeup that was created for him.

[00:37:00] I know it's a tiny touch, but I've never even thought about it.

[00:37:02] He never shaved his head for the show.

[00:37:04] They were painting his hair down and then painting it a skin color and then attaching the Oz Cobb hairpiece on top of it.

[00:37:13] And it's so interesting because I see Cobb is quite bold and Colin Farrell has a lovely head of hair.

[00:37:19] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:37:20] So it is interesting that they paint it in skin color.

[00:37:25] But anyway, that was just a tiny touch.

[00:37:27] But again, one of the main contributions to the show, if it didn't have that and you couldn't wear it every day, there would be no Penguin TV Show.

[00:37:34] Yeah.

[00:37:34] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:37:35] And some of the other contributions as well, though, the costume designer, Helen Huang, I thought was so interesting to hear her thoughts about the costumes that she created for each of the characters.

[00:37:48] Oz's costume being this wannabe, this person that is just looking at the riches that the Falcons have and tries to do that.

[00:37:56] But he hasn't got the talent, hasn't got the knowledge to be able to do that.

[00:37:59] So all of his costumes are aspirational towards the wealth that he's seeing.

[00:38:03] And he's always thinking about his look in front of his other men.

[00:38:06] So they'll see me in these great clothes and think how great I look and how wealthy I am.

[00:38:13] And they'll aspire to be like me, you know, that kind of thing.

[00:38:16] So that's so interesting coming from the costume designer.

[00:38:19] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:38:20] And even just like, you know, them talking about Victor being the humanized or humanizing heart of the show.

[00:38:29] And so that's why he's kind of just in the sports gear, you know, the runners, the tracky bottoms or the jeans and the jackets and so on.

[00:38:39] And, you know, it's not like Victor's then trying to aspire to wear what Oz is doing, even though he's trying to aspire to be sort of accepted by him.

[00:38:50] He does go for his wealthy sports shoes or his expensive sports shoes.

[00:38:54] Yes, he does, because that gets picked out by squid.

[00:38:56] Exactly, yeah.

[00:38:57] But, you know, it's kind of that more grounded again.

[00:39:01] And the other thing I liked what Helen said was when Oz was getting sort of, they consciously took him out of the suits as they move forward through the series or through the season.

[00:39:16] Because that aspiration to be like Carmine Falcone or Moroney being in the suit, you know, the cartel leader.

[00:39:27] Yeah.

[00:39:28] And as he got into tighter spots, more difficult spots, that's why they took him out of that because it was almost like he was breaking down from being able to reach that.

[00:39:40] So suddenly he's in a leather jacket and just a shirt that's wide open.

[00:39:44] Mm-hmm.

[00:39:45] It's only at the end then, the very end, where you're getting the full outfit of the penguin with the long winter coat, the three-piece suit, the top hat, the cane, and so on, you know?

[00:40:01] Yeah.

[00:40:01] Or the umbrella, yeah.

[00:40:02] Or the umbrella, sorry.

[00:40:03] Yeah.

[00:40:04] Really, really good.

[00:40:06] And do you know what I really loved about that?

[00:40:07] I'm not sure we said it in the finale.

[00:40:08] What I loved about that was, and it was pretty clear, it was that he's coming back from an event where he would dress in that style for that particular event he's at.

[00:40:16] He's not wearing a costume.

[00:40:17] He's not putting on his Batman costume.

[00:40:19] And this is the costume that the penguin's going to be in at all times from now on.

[00:40:24] He's coming back from an event, clearly dealing with all the other socialites of Gotham.

[00:40:28] That's why he's wearing that specific outfit.

[00:40:31] But I doubt he's going to be wearing the top hat the next time he's committing a crime.

[00:40:35] Yeah, exactly.

[00:40:36] But if I did have one Iceberg Lounge question for this making of, it would definitely be what is the basketball team for Gotham?

[00:40:46] That's Helen Huang says she made a basketball team, the Gotham Guardsmen.

[00:40:50] She made a t-shirt, kind of a vest for Victor that goes underneath all of his layers of clothes for the basketball team of Gotham that he would support.

[00:41:00] I just thought it was a cool detail.

[00:41:02] That's really cool, yeah.

[00:41:02] And it's underneath five or six layers.

[00:41:04] She talks about the fact that she created him with multiple layers like an onion that you peel off as you go along the series and get to know him better and better, which I loved.

[00:41:13] But you would never have gotten to the vest.

[00:41:15] The vest was just for him as a character.

[00:41:17] And the team were never mentioned on screen.

[00:41:19] But she created it just so she had some real detail for Victor to play off.

[00:41:23] Yeah, that's really cool.

[00:41:25] Really cool.

[00:41:25] And hence the sport, Aperol.

[00:41:28] Basketball is the thing he's loved, enjoyed.

[00:41:32] When his family was alive, it's the thing that's close to him that he's been brought up in.

[00:41:37] Maybe even he would go and see the Gotham Guardsmen with his dad and so on.

[00:41:43] So, yeah, really cool.

[00:41:44] Great little touch.

[00:41:45] And then the final touch is from Helm that she mentions is Sophia starting out with just that standard red dress.

[00:41:52] And by the end, as she gets broken further and further, she moves from having really buttoned up clothes to revealing all the scars that she has over time.

[00:42:00] As she goes towards the end of the series, you see her in much more revealing clothes showing off the pain that she's gone through in Arkham.

[00:42:07] And I thought that was a really interesting, you know, insight into the psyche of the character through the clothing.

[00:42:13] Absolutely.

[00:42:13] And actually, the link here between the costume design and the music composition, I thought, was really good around Sophia in that you have Mick Giacchino saying how, you know, musically they were trying to go for a haunting image, almost ghostly or phantom-like.

[00:42:30] And with Helen's costume right at the start, it's this, well, she's also blurred out as the focus is on Oz Cobb initially.

[00:42:43] And it's just this big white jacket that you see.

[00:42:49] So there's this fuzzy, fuzzed out white ghost behind Oz and the camera slowly adjusts its focus to show that it's Sophia the Hangman.

[00:43:04] So I thought that was a really nice little touch.

[00:43:07] Absolutely.

[00:43:07] Yeah.

[00:43:07] Speaking of Mick Giacchino, I do think his description of how he does the themes and the music composition for the show is really interesting to watch.

[00:43:16] It's stuff that I just can't pick up on because I'm not musically inclined.

[00:43:19] I love listening to music.

[00:43:20] I love listening to themes, but it would take me a hundred views to pick up on the things that a musician is going for.

[00:43:28] And one of our fellow podcasters, Matt Murdoch, does breakdains of music and shows.

[00:43:33] He's a musician himself.

[00:43:34] That's great.

[00:43:34] So good.

[00:43:35] It's so interesting.

[00:43:36] He catches this stuff, but he always says, you won't feel all the detail because I'm a musician.

[00:43:41] I can pick this kind of stuff up, but you will feel the intention behind some of the things.

[00:43:45] So Mick Giacchino is talking about Oz having a scurrying theme and an ambition theme.

[00:43:50] You can definitely hear that in the music.

[00:43:52] I wouldn't have specifically called those out as the names for them, but when he says a scurrying theme, you know what he means with Oz's early theme in the show.

[00:44:00] And then the ambition one is this much bigger version of Oz.

[00:44:06] Absolutely.

[00:44:06] But even then how the theme becomes more lyrical, but that's actually for Francis.

[00:44:12] And Mick Giacchino says how that's to show the relationship between Francis and Oz Cobb, but it's also to show that she's the one driving him.

[00:44:21] Yeah.

[00:44:21] So actually she has that theme as well, but it's just in a more lyrical sense.

[00:44:27] Yeah, I thought this was really, really cool.

[00:44:30] And I think as well, he really, for me, hit Victor nicely with the theme that he really played it melancholic and quite simple.

[00:44:43] So it was just that it's this solitary figure.

[00:44:47] You know, he's lost his family and he's effectively lost all his mates.

[00:44:52] And he's lost his former girlfriend.

[00:44:56] He's trying to find Oz.

[00:44:59] That's the new point.

[00:45:00] But it's this melancholy and it's like an individual viola being played in the more sort of kinetic moments.

[00:45:11] So, for example, when he sort of drives the car into the Moroni men, when Oz and Sophia are on their knees and being questioned by Nadia.

[00:45:24] There's the viola that kind of gives a more kinetic element, but still a lonely tone to it.

[00:45:31] Yeah.

[00:45:31] And then his theme would have the piano, single notes being played on a piano and, you know, not chords or anything like that as such.

[00:45:42] So really interesting.

[00:45:43] It is.

[00:45:44] Like he said, it was to give this melancholic touch.

[00:45:47] And that to me was, he hit the nail on the head.

[00:45:50] And I hadn't called Victor melancholic all the way through, but actually he was.

[00:45:55] Yeah.

[00:45:56] And it really fit it.

[00:45:57] And once again, me not being musically inclined, it's interesting hearing Mickey and Kilo saying that what was in the music for Victor was a numbing but heartbreaking piece of music from the start.

[00:46:07] So in a sense, he's saying you should know from the start that this isn't going to end well for Victor.

[00:46:13] It's going to be heartbreaking for you.

[00:46:15] It's going to be heartbreaking for him.

[00:46:16] And he's already lost all of his family as well.

[00:46:18] So he starts out in a really bad place and ends off, well, dead at the hands of Oz.

[00:46:22] Yeah, exactly.

[00:46:23] At the end.

[00:46:24] So really interesting.

[00:46:25] And just that one touch that he talks about with Oz as well, with that scurrying theme that he has, that it builds and builds and builds as he gets more and more angry.

[00:46:34] And as he flips and gets more aggressive, it just overflows.

[00:46:39] Yeah, it's big brass.

[00:46:41] And yeah, it really builds, which I thought was cool.

[00:46:46] Not only when he gets angry, but as I say, but it's also in moments where he's wanting to explode.

[00:46:52] Yes.

[00:46:52] But can't.

[00:46:53] Like, that he is conscious enough to sort of reserve himself.

[00:46:57] Yeah.

[00:46:57] But that they will play that sort of building, scurrying theme, making it louder and louder,

[00:47:05] show the anger effectively rising in him.

[00:47:09] Yeah.

[00:47:09] Which I thought was really good.

[00:47:10] Absolutely.

[00:47:11] Absolutely.

[00:47:12] I've really enjoyed this making of.

[00:47:14] Go watch it if you haven't seen it.

[00:47:16] Yeah.

[00:47:16] I kind of wish it was an hour because they do go really in depth into that.

[00:47:20] But if you want even more depth, definitely go out and listen to the podcast, the official Penguin podcast where they have all these people.

[00:47:28] Yeah, definitely.

[00:47:29] The making of The Penguin is a recommend for sure.

[00:47:33] Yes, it is.

[00:47:34] Go check it out.

[00:47:35] Final thing.

[00:47:35] We have one piece of feedback in from Coffee and Vodka on the series.

[00:47:39] He sent in his overall thoughts on the full season of The Penguin.

[00:47:41] Excellent.

[00:47:42] Yeah, Coffee and Vodka says,

[00:47:44] Greetings, fellow fine-feathered defenders.

[00:47:47] The best superhero productions are first one thing, then a hero thing like The Winter Soldier's spy thriller and Ragnarok's sci-fi comedy adventure first and a comic book movie second.

[00:48:00] The Penguin was an HBO drama first and almost only with what was left of the budget after Colin's transformation put into a bottomless pit of angst.

[00:48:10] Yet I liked it a lot.

[00:48:13] And what they steered clear of comic-wise, they dove deep into dramatically with the show's theme of the inevitable betrayal and other general tragedies of family.

[00:48:23] A great one-time watch.

[00:48:25] Four and a half exploding populations, committed giants, and hello kitties out of five.

[00:48:32] Peace and take care.

[00:48:33] Coffee and vodka.

[00:48:34] P.S.

[00:48:35] Forgetting to cancel the cilantro was plenty enough reason to strangle Vic.

[00:48:40] I guess there's another coriander haser in our midst.

[00:48:47] Never.

[00:48:48] Never coffee and vodka.

[00:48:50] Keep pouring on that cilantro.

[00:48:53] Well, if I ask you not to put it on my meal, you put it on there anyway.

[00:48:57] Maybe.

[00:48:59] But that's really interesting.

[00:49:00] I know coffee and vodka isn't a massive fan of the HBO dramas and those kind of angsty dramas.

[00:49:05] I know he mentioned that earlier on in the season of The Penguin and he stuck with it and did really enjoy the show.

[00:49:10] So I think that's probably right for you.

[00:49:13] Saying that it's a great one-time watch.

[00:49:16] I've definitely watched it through a few times now.

[00:49:18] I really enjoyed it.

[00:49:19] But it's my kind of show.

[00:49:20] So I absolutely see why you liked it.

[00:49:24] I absolutely see your feeling about it.

[00:49:26] And I do think it's up there with some of the best of the HBO dramas.

[00:49:29] And I will say, though, after reading some more Penguin-specific comics over a while,

[00:49:34] it's surprising how much is taken from the character of Oswald Cobblepot from DC Comics.

[00:49:40] It's a different version of him to start out with.

[00:49:42] But he is leaning into some of the things that Oswald Cobblepot would do and The Penguin would do in Batman comics.

[00:49:47] Because he is a character.

[00:49:49] Yeah, definitely.

[00:49:49] So they are taking inspiration from some of the things.

[00:49:52] But it is a new version.

[00:49:53] Similar to, I would say, Matt Reeves' version of the Batman is quite different from a lot of the other versions of the Batman have been before.

[00:50:00] Yeah, I think so.

[00:50:01] Yeah.

[00:50:02] Thanks very much for your email, Coffee and Vodka.

[00:50:04] Yeah, thanks, Coffee and Vodka.

[00:50:05] And thank you, fellow Gothamites, for all your feedback over the course of this eight-episode season of The Penguin.

[00:50:15] I think the only thing to do is to set up the shrine and pray to the Season 2 gods for a Season 2.

[00:50:23] I'm really looking forward to Batman 2, the movie, which I know has been confirmed, and which we know Colin Farrell is going to be in.

[00:50:30] I'm really hopeful they'll do that.

[00:50:32] I heard a really interesting one during the week this week that I would really love to see.

[00:50:38] Zoe Kravitz may return as Catwoman.

[00:50:42] Yeah.

[00:50:42] Selina Kyle.

[00:50:43] So maybe they'll bring her back in Batman 2 and then spin her out into Season 2 of The Batman Show, the Batman TV shows.

[00:50:52] Okay, yeah.

[00:50:52] So maybe we'll see Selina Kyle and Sofia Falcone, or Sofia Giganti, in the next season.

[00:50:59] That would be superb.

[00:51:02] There's no rumour in that.

[00:51:02] That's just a guess and a hope from somebody else I saw.

[00:51:05] Talk about their hopes.

[00:51:06] I'd love to see it.

[00:51:07] It'd be really good, yeah.

[00:51:08] Absolutely.

[00:51:08] Really cool.

[00:51:09] Yeah.

[00:51:09] But that's all we know for the moment.

[00:51:11] We will be back for Batman 2, of course, later on when it does come out.

[00:51:14] It's only going to start filming next summer.

[00:51:16] But if you haven't subscribed to the podcast, we have lots of other things to talk about on our podcast.

[00:51:21] So go over to tvpodcastindustries.com and subscribe to the podcast over there.

[00:51:26] Next up, we're going to be talking about Agatha All Along, our wrap-up of that, and our wrap-up of the Coven Cauldron quiz on that show as well.

[00:51:33] Yes, and as I mentioned earlier, we'll be back in the Marvel Cinematic Universe with What If Season 3, which is the final season.

[00:51:42] And it returns for eight episodes from the 22nd of December.

[00:51:48] It comes out daily as well.

[00:51:51] Yeah.

[00:51:51] And so, yeah.

[00:51:54] You're stressing out about how we're going to cover it, aren't you, Tom?

[00:51:56] Yeah.

[00:51:58] Fellow Gothamites, pray for me.

[00:51:59] We'll work out a way to do it.

[00:52:01] We'll work out a way to do it.

[00:52:02] Thanks so much for joining us.

[00:52:03] Touch again next time.

[00:52:04] Yes, thank you so much, fellow Gothamites, for joining us for this series of The Penguin.

[00:52:10] As I said, let us hope that the Season 2 gods are shining bright on this.

[00:52:16] Man 2 gods, John.

[00:52:17] But in the meantime, keep watching, keep listening, and of course, keep waddling.

[00:52:23] Bye.

[00:52:24] Bye.

[00:52:25] Wah wah.