The Penguin Episode 5 Review

[00:00:00] This is the Penguin Podcast on TV Podcast Industries. We're back with the fifth episode of The Penguin, Homecoming.

[00:00:06] So, nice boy. What's Aswalt doing that's more important than me, huh?

[00:00:13] He's making a move, um, against the Moronies.

[00:00:19] Moronies? No, baby, you got it backwards. He's working them to get at the Falcons. They're the bigger fish.

[00:00:28] They're all dead.

[00:00:32] Was it him? Did Aswalt kill him?

[00:00:38] Yeah.

[00:00:40] Don't lie to me. You're bad at it.

[00:00:44] It's the truth.

[00:00:49] Oz...

[00:00:51] Oz pulled this off.

[00:00:53] That's why I'm here right now, to...

[00:00:54] to make sure that you're safe while this is all going down.

[00:01:01] Finally.

[00:01:03] Okay, then.

[00:01:04] So, he's gonna need my help then, right?

[00:01:33] Welcome back, Gothamites, to The Penguin Podcast on TV Podcast Industries. This time we're chatting about The Penguin, Episode 5, Homecoming. I'm one of your hosts, Derek.

[00:01:41] Yes, and with a thwip and a thwip, I'm one of your other hosts, John. Welcome back, fellow Gothamites.

[00:01:50] Quizzers, and of course, waddlers.

[00:01:54] Yes, welcome back to The Penguin. I'm guessing that's a joke about Spider-Man Homecoming, John.

[00:01:59] Yeah, it is.

[00:02:00] Yeah, thwip and thwop aren't usually ones that you would put on Spider-Man.

[00:02:05] I'm sure I saw Spider-Man sort of zipping around in the canyons of Gotham.

[00:02:10] Very high up, I'd say, over these streets.

[00:02:13] Yes, welcome back to our fifth episode of The Penguin Podcast.

[00:02:17] Really enjoying the show, suffer.

[00:02:19] Absolutely.

[00:02:19] But before we get into it, I do have a little thing that I think is hilarious.

[00:02:25] Okay.

[00:02:27] So, if you look at the Penguin title, so it fills the screen, it's really big, it's in red, it's on.

[00:02:37] If you just look at the G, I think you might spot a very famous claymation antagonist to Wallace and Gromit in there.

[00:02:46] Because to me, it looks like we have another penguin, Feathers McGraw.

[00:02:52] Really?

[00:02:53] Hilarious.

[00:02:53] In the G of The Penguin.

[00:02:56] And the only reason that came to my mind was because there was the short trailer for Wallace and Gromit's Murder Most Foul, spelt F-O-W-L.

[00:03:08] Of course, of course.

[00:03:09] The return of Feathers McGraw.

[00:03:11] And it is the return of Feathers McGraw.

[00:03:13] And I was like, oh my goodness, the G looks like sort of a stylized drawing of Feathers McGraw.

[00:03:20] It's more the beak, I guess.

[00:03:21] Maybe, maybe.

[00:03:22] It's weird because obviously that's intentional.

[00:03:24] It's supposed to be the penguin.

[00:03:26] So, it is supposed to be the penguin's beak.

[00:03:28] But it's Feathers McGraw.

[00:03:29] It's funny that it looks like Feathers McGraw.

[00:03:31] I love it.

[00:03:32] I love it, John.

[00:03:32] Nice opener for this episode.

[00:03:34] Just want to say a huge thank you to all of those who have subscribed to us so far.

[00:03:38] If you haven't subscribed to us yet, you can subscribe to the podcast over on tvpodcastindustries.com.

[00:03:42] Or just search for TV Podcast Industries on your favorite ornithological or gangster supporting podcast player.

[00:03:49] Absolutely.

[00:03:50] You can also email your thoughts about the penguin to us to feedback at tvpodcastindustries.com.

[00:03:54] And you can also email us there with your answers for our penguin pub quiz.

[00:03:58] Yes, the Iceberg Lounge quiz.

[00:04:01] The one.

[00:04:01] We have question five coming on up.

[00:04:05] We do, but let's start the way we usually do with our criminal comms feedback section.

[00:04:10] Our feedback on last week's episode.

[00:04:12] First up, we have an email in from Victor.

[00:04:14] Yes, Victor says on episode four.

[00:04:17] Greetings, Gothamites.

[00:04:19] Well, looks like our protagonist's backstories are coming full circle.

[00:04:24] Sophia, as an Arkham survivor, is sure playing her cards right.

[00:04:29] Happy trails.

[00:04:30] Old falcones.

[00:04:31] Moronies.

[00:04:32] You're next.

[00:04:33] I guess Sophia will task Viti with hunting down the penguin.

[00:04:37] I don't believe Oz can talk his way out of this one.

[00:04:40] Expecting some heavy action next week?

[00:04:42] Think on your feet.

[00:04:44] Victor Zaz Von Doom.

[00:04:46] P.S.

[00:04:47] Not sure to trust a Theo Rossi character with or without Shades.

[00:04:53] Very good.

[00:04:54] Very good.

[00:04:55] Yes, Theo Rossi, of course, played the character of Shades in Luke Cage, in case you didn't watch that show.

[00:05:00] So, yeah.

[00:05:01] Is he trustworthy or not with or without Shades?

[00:05:03] As you see this episode, trustworthy, I guess, to Sophia.

[00:05:07] Yeah, I think he's probably almost feels like, I don't know, maybe some kind of reverse Stockholm syndrome.

[00:05:13] Or even, dare I say, a Harley Quinn to Joker.

[00:05:19] Like, he kind of seems in awe of her.

[00:05:22] Yeah.

[00:05:23] And it's like she's wrested the power of control over him and he's a bit kind of in awe of her.

[00:05:31] Yeah.

[00:05:32] Yeah.

[00:05:32] But as Victor says, do we trust him at all if he's played the characters he's played in the past?

[00:05:37] Maybe not.

[00:05:38] Yeah.

[00:05:38] It's difficult to know now because I'm not really sure of the character.

[00:05:42] Exactly.

[00:05:43] Exactly.

[00:05:43] Great stuff.

[00:05:44] Thanks very much for your thoughts on last week's episode, Victor.

[00:05:46] Great to hear from you on this season of The Penguin.

[00:05:48] Absolutely.

[00:05:49] Good stuff.

[00:05:50] Thanks, Victor.

[00:05:51] We also have an email on last week's episode from Meryl who says,

[00:05:54] what an amazing character this series has crafted with Christine Milioti as Sofia Falcone.

[00:05:58] I love how great of a character study this episode was in exploring every facet of Sofia

[00:06:02] as she journeys through the evils of Gotham.

[00:06:05] After re-watching The Batman, I've come away with the revelation that Carmine Falcone was

[00:06:09] the actual big bad of that film and every other faction, Batman, Selina and Riddler,

[00:06:13] was going against him to take him down.

[00:06:15] His control and reach was so potent and deep.

[00:06:17] It took a lot to eventually stop him and this series is basically the Fallout chapter of

[00:06:22] what happens next when you remove a figure of status, power and influence.

[00:06:26] Nature abhors a vacuum after all.

[00:06:28] So that power of vacuum must be filled with something.

[00:06:30] Also, I'm wondering if you guys watch the Inside the Episode segment at the end of the

[00:06:34] episode or on YouTube after the episodes are out.

[00:06:36] It gives a lot of insight on certain things the writers and other players on the board

[00:06:39] were going for with the story.

[00:06:41] Shout out to Mark Strong for portraying a slightly different interpretation of Falcone,

[00:06:44] but one that conveys something completely different than what John Turturro was giving in The Batman.

[00:06:49] Both actors had a different aspect of this character to give off a certain aura

[00:06:52] and I'd say they definitely captured that perfectly.

[00:06:55] Also, Mark Strong's forehead is a pretty defining feature of this actor.

[00:06:58] Not a bad thing, but you could definitely tell that this was a different actor.

[00:07:01] Also, I've heard others bring this up and I noticed it too,

[00:07:04] but when he says Sophia will take over, he chooses his words carefully.

[00:07:08] They'll do what he says.

[00:07:10] Translation, everyone will still listen to him and work for him

[00:07:13] while Sophia will be a public face.

[00:07:15] The charity is also part of it.

[00:07:17] The name of it is after his wife who he killed.

[00:07:19] Philanthropy, to cover up the crime element that lies beneath, works every time.

[00:07:24] He was also gaslighting and disrespecting way earlier than we thought.

[00:07:27] From when Sophia was a child to later in her adult life,

[00:07:30] he changed tactics, but the formula was still the same.

[00:07:33] For me, five makeshift gas chambers,

[00:07:36] ditched alliances through saving your own skin,

[00:07:38] and mashed magpies made of five.

[00:07:40] Excellent, Meryl.

[00:07:41] Very good, Meryl.

[00:07:41] Yes, I do like the mashed magpies.

[00:07:44] Poor magpie.

[00:07:45] She doesn't do very well these shows at all.

[00:07:47] She doesn't last long, does she?

[00:07:49] It's such a shame, because I could see she could be another really good pickpocket

[00:07:54] or thief-type person, a bit like Catwoman.

[00:07:58] Yeah.

[00:07:58] So, yeah, real shame about old magpie, but mashed magpies, I do like it.

[00:08:03] Yeah, I think you're right.

[00:08:05] I think definitely Mark Strong, who I absolutely adore,

[00:08:09] and Totoro bring their own thing here.

[00:08:13] I think I, in some ways, prefer Mark Strong's version,

[00:08:16] but he's also, I feel, given the nature of it,

[00:08:21] it feels very much like you kind of get to know Carmine Falcone a bit better

[00:08:26] than what you did from Batman the movie.

[00:08:29] But I do really enjoy Mark Strong's portrayal here.

[00:08:33] It just feels so controlling and manipulative.

[00:08:38] Yeah.

[00:08:38] And as you say, really picking his words very, very carefully.

[00:08:43] In some ways, you're absolutely right.

[00:08:45] This is the vacuum.

[00:08:47] He was the A-game of Gotham, really, here.

[00:08:53] Resources, money, men, a whole network of a crime syndicate.

[00:09:01] And actually, what you're hearing in this series is he took down the tryouts.

[00:09:09] He limited them to Chinatown.

[00:09:11] He effectively neutralized the Moronies.

[00:09:14] And I think there's a really good piece around the difference

[00:09:18] between the Moronies and the Falcons here in episode five as well

[00:09:22] that we'll get to later.

[00:09:24] But I think that's a really important parallel theory that's going on here

[00:09:31] in this world.

[00:09:33] Yeah, it's not just about the rise of Batman,

[00:09:36] but it is the fall of established crime, in a sense.

[00:09:40] Exactly.

[00:09:41] So really interesting.

[00:09:43] Yeah.

[00:09:43] I really love that pick up about Carmine Falcone being the big bad

[00:09:48] of the Batman movie.

[00:09:49] And then we're into kind of the second season here,

[00:09:51] or the second part of the story with the Penguin rising to be the big bad.

[00:09:55] I wonder how they're going to manage that,

[00:09:56] if they're going to have three Batman movies,

[00:09:58] which is the plan with Robert Pattinson,

[00:10:00] and maybe another TV show in between.

[00:10:03] Would it be like five seasons of a TV show

[00:10:05] where you have one big bad centering on a movie,

[00:10:08] then on a series, a movie, and then on a series,

[00:10:10] and then on a movie again?

[00:10:11] You know, something like that.

[00:10:12] Bring back Joker in the third Batman movie,

[00:10:13] and he's your final big bad, or something like that.

[00:10:16] It's a really interesting idea.

[00:10:18] As for the episode segments, at the end of the episode,

[00:10:20] we don't get to see those.

[00:10:22] Unfortunately, they're not provided to us

[00:10:23] as part of our preview episodes that we get for review.

[00:10:26] But there is a Penguin podcast,

[00:10:29] the official podcast that comes out the day

[00:10:30] after the episodes are released,

[00:10:32] which I do get to listen to occasionally.

[00:10:33] They are great interviews with the cast

[00:10:36] and the people behind the scenes,

[00:10:38] and given their motivation.

[00:10:39] But they are also about an hour as well,

[00:10:41] and we have to get our episodes out.

[00:10:42] So we don't listen to them before we record our podcast.

[00:10:45] That is true.

[00:10:46] We do drop in and catch up.

[00:10:47] It's been really interesting.

[00:10:48] There's a great first episode, I think,

[00:10:51] where Colin Farrell talks a lot about his approach to the character

[00:10:54] and how difficult it was over the course of this many episodes

[00:10:58] working in this character of the Penguin

[00:11:01] after just doing a small bit in the movies, really.

[00:11:03] So, yeah, highly recommend that.

[00:11:05] Excellent stuff.

[00:11:06] Thanks so much, Meryl, for the feedback.

[00:11:08] Really good, good stuff.

[00:11:10] Absolutely.

[00:11:10] We got a little bit of feedback on this episode

[00:11:12] coming after we get into our discussion.

[00:11:14] Absolutely.

[00:11:15] Let us get into our spoiler-filled discussion

[00:11:17] of episode five of the Penguin Homecoming.

[00:11:22] Derek, who gave us what, where, when, and how?

[00:11:25] Well, the show, of course, is based on characters

[00:11:27] created by Bill Finger and Bob Kane for Detective Comics,

[00:11:29] spinning out of Matt Reeves, the Batman,

[00:11:31] and under-showrunner Lauren LaFrancq.

[00:11:33] This episode was written by Brianna Gibson

[00:11:35] and Shea Ogubana.

[00:11:36] Brianna used to work as a script coordinator

[00:11:38] on The Walking Dead and Fear the Walking Dead.

[00:11:40] Interesting.

[00:11:41] Yeah, it's an interesting one.

[00:11:42] I like one of those.

[00:11:43] Yes, me too.

[00:11:44] I liked the first three seasons of Fear the Walking Dead

[00:11:46] and liked all seasons of The Walking Dead.

[00:11:49] I like The Walking Dead.

[00:11:50] There you go.

[00:11:52] And Shea Ogubana is the creator and lead writer

[00:11:54] on the Samuel L. Jackson miniseries Fight Night

[00:11:56] that came out just in the last couple of months.

[00:11:58] It's called Fight Night, The Million Dollar Heist.

[00:12:00] I have to check that out.

[00:12:01] It's on Peacock over in the US,

[00:12:03] which takes a lot longer to get over to European tours.

[00:12:07] But it has an amazing cast,

[00:12:08] and I'll watch anything with Samuel L. Jackson in it.

[00:12:11] Definitely.

[00:12:12] Interesting.

[00:12:12] Yeah, good stuff.

[00:12:13] And this episode was once again directed by Helen Shaver,

[00:12:16] who directed episode four as well.

[00:12:17] Good stuff.

[00:12:19] John, do you want to tell us what they gave us

[00:12:20] through this synopsis for The Penguin episode five,

[00:12:23] Homecoming?

[00:12:24] Sure.

[00:12:25] Annoyed that Salvatore Moroni's wife, Nadia,

[00:12:27] stole his drug business out from under him,

[00:12:30] Oz Cobb and his crew kidnapped their son, Taj.

[00:12:33] Oz issues an ultimatum to the Moronis,

[00:12:36] offering to return Taj to them

[00:12:37] in exchange for the mushrooms used for the drug Bliss.

[00:12:41] During the exchange,

[00:12:43] Oz, who has bribed a prison guard to assassinate Sal Moroni

[00:12:45] and covered Taj with gasoline,

[00:12:48] kills Taj and Nadia by setting them on fire.

[00:12:51] But the fire activates the chemical fire extinguisher,

[00:12:54] destroying most of the Bliss mushrooms.

[00:12:57] However, his plot against Sal Moroni doesn't go as planned,

[00:13:01] as Sal survives the attempt on his life, escaping prison.

[00:13:05] Meanwhile, Victor is tasked with bringing Oz's mother,

[00:13:08] Frances, to safety while he deals with the failure of his great plan.

[00:13:12] Vic chooses to hide her in the one place no one would suspect,

[00:13:16] the flood-damaged ruins of Crown Point.

[00:13:19] When Oz finally arrives to lay low with them

[00:13:22] after being shunned by his girlfriend Eve,

[00:13:24] he's left with nothing.

[00:13:25] But it sparks a memory in Oz of when he and his brothers

[00:13:29] used to have the city as their playground.

[00:13:31] He brings Vic to a hidden, abandoned underground trolley station

[00:13:35] where he plans to set up his brand new base of operations.

[00:13:39] Meanwhile, after the death of all her family,

[00:13:42] Gia Vitti is sent to a children's home,

[00:13:45] and following hours of torture,

[00:13:47] Johnny Vitti decides to support Sofia's bid to head the family

[00:13:51] after they reminisce about her mother, Isabel Gigante.

[00:13:56] Joined by Dr. Julian Rush, who has fallen in love with her,

[00:13:59] Sofia rebrands the family under her mother's name

[00:14:03] and earns the loyalty of Carmine's men

[00:14:05] by arguing how they were similarly mistreated

[00:14:08] and neglected under Carmine's rule.

[00:14:11] When Johnny objects to her plans to make peace with Sal Moroni,

[00:14:14] Sofia executes him, severing the last tie to the Falcone crime family.

[00:14:20] To cement her new place in Gotham,

[00:14:23] she meets with Salvatore Moroni to form an alliance of their families

[00:14:26] and take over the city.

[00:14:28] But first they're going to kill Oz Cobb,

[00:14:31] the common source of their problems.

[00:14:33] I have to say that's one of the moments I really loved in this episode

[00:14:36] when Sofia turned around to Sal Moroni and was like,

[00:14:39] I'm not going to kill you because that's what Oz wants.

[00:14:41] We're going to team up and we're going to kill him.

[00:14:42] I don't know why, but it just really struck me as a great moment

[00:14:45] when the bad guys who are being played suddenly realize

[00:14:48] they're not the bad guys.

[00:14:49] The bad guy is the guy that's manipulating them.

[00:14:51] But the thing is, and then take over the city

[00:14:53] and then probably kill Sal after that.

[00:14:56] Probably.

[00:14:57] Yeah, exactly.

[00:14:58] Let's get rid of our common problem first.

[00:15:01] Exactly.

[00:15:01] You know, the enemy of my enemy is my friend.

[00:15:04] Mm-hmm.

[00:15:04] Yep, yep.

[00:15:05] They do say they're going to team up,

[00:15:06] but we'll talk about it, of course,

[00:15:07] as we get into our top five case notes for the episode.

[00:15:11] Let's start out with Case Note 1 and Oz making his play.

[00:15:15] So this follows on directly from the end of the previous week's episode

[00:15:19] where Victor had come to save Oz as Maserati,

[00:15:22] crashed the car, killing one of Sofia's men.

[00:15:25] And now we see the Maserati right at the beginning of the episode

[00:15:28] being burnt out by Oz as he's walking away.

[00:15:31] And I love to have the conversation again about Rex Calabrese,

[00:15:36] the conversation that was had between Oz and Alberto Falcone

[00:15:40] in the first episode where he was laughed at by Alberto

[00:15:43] and it led to his death.

[00:15:44] This time he's having the conversation with Vic

[00:15:46] and Vic gets it instantly.

[00:15:48] He goes, oh, I understand what you're talking about.

[00:15:50] I understand this guy must have been so influential

[00:15:53] in your local neighborhood when you were growing up.

[00:15:55] He instantly gets it and you can tell because of Vic being really apologetic

[00:16:00] about what happened to the Maserati.

[00:16:01] And he goes, I'm sorry we destroyed your chariot.

[00:16:05] So he knows exactly what Oz is getting at.

[00:16:08] Absolutely.

[00:16:09] I mean, this is really good.

[00:16:10] I love the fact that in a sense it's almost a bit like

[00:16:15] them proclaiming their love for one another

[00:16:18] at the start of the marriage

[00:16:19] where you just have Oz saying you and me to the end.

[00:16:23] I mean, this is basically the play now plays out

[00:16:27] and it's success or it's failure and it's to the end.

[00:16:34] And I really like that because it's kind of like this marriage

[00:16:38] where then, as you say, Oz has always kind of understood it.

[00:16:42] Victor now understands what's happening.

[00:16:45] You know, Oz is the, he's really praising Victor here.

[00:16:49] You know, he stepped up for Oz and he's kind of thankful.

[00:16:53] For that loyalty that's been shown.

[00:16:56] And as he says, it's worth a hundred Maseratis.

[00:16:59] Yeah, that's worth a lot.

[00:17:01] You know?

[00:17:01] So I really thought this was just really good

[00:17:06] how then he calls in his men as well.

[00:17:08] This is really right.

[00:17:10] Fight or flight here.

[00:17:11] Either I'm going underground, which ultimately he does,

[00:17:15] but he's making the fight play to begin with,

[00:17:19] which is this whole sequence of capturing the son of Sal and Nadia Maroney,

[00:17:30] Taj, in order to make an exchange for the mushrooms,

[00:17:35] which create the bliss drug.

[00:17:37] I mean, what an idiot.

[00:17:39] Taj on TikTok saying that the Maroney's are going to take out

[00:17:42] their vengeance on the one that wronged them on TikTok

[00:17:46] from the tattoo parlor where he's getting his tattoo done.

[00:17:49] Like, you know, I know Oz isn't the smartest person in the world,

[00:17:54] but he doesn't need to be to take someone like Taj Maroney.

[00:17:58] Taj Maroney's an absolute idiot here.

[00:18:01] The only guess I have, to give him a little bit of credit,

[00:18:04] is that he must have been doing the tattoo in a few segments

[00:18:09] because you don't always get your full back tattoos that he's getting done.

[00:18:13] It's probably a few visits that he has to do.

[00:18:15] So maybe they're staking the place out.

[00:18:17] They decided to edit that for time because otherwise it looks like

[00:18:20] he's live on TikTok and then Oz drives over there

[00:18:23] and kills everybody in place five minutes after he's done it.

[00:18:26] So I think it might be keep an eye out on the tattoo parlor.

[00:18:30] The next time he goes back, we're taking everybody out.

[00:18:32] It must be something like that.

[00:18:33] Absolutely.

[00:18:34] I must say I really thought that scene was great.

[00:18:37] Brilliant.

[00:18:38] You have Taj with his earphones on

[00:18:42] and you just see his protection getting taken out, shot down,

[00:18:48] and including the poor tattoo artist as well.

[00:18:52] And he's just kind of left there.

[00:18:54] I love that scene.

[00:18:55] I love the fact that when the sound does come through,

[00:18:59] you have Victor who's the one that grabs him,

[00:19:02] throws a few punches in order to effectively subdue him

[00:19:08] as then you get Oz giving him a foot to the face.

[00:19:12] I'm hoping it's not the foot with the metal bar across the bottom

[00:19:16] that supports his club foot because otherwise that really would have hurt.

[00:19:20] It certainly knocks him out.

[00:19:22] I do like this as well because I think it plays a little bit into

[00:19:25] sort of a bit later with Victor as well.

[00:19:28] You know, he's kind of done the raced in, thrown a few punches,

[00:19:32] gotten the target, and he's kind of pleased as punch.

[00:19:36] And ultimately Oz wants him to babysit his mother.

[00:19:40] Absolutely.

[00:19:41] Weirdly, he sees that as a disappointment to begin with,

[00:19:43] but it's actually the more prestigious thing because it's Oz's mother.

[00:19:51] It's the most trusted position you can be in.

[00:19:53] Exactly.

[00:19:54] So he's not going to put Vic in any danger,

[00:19:56] and he's going to make sure that his mother's taken care of

[00:19:58] by the only person that he trusts to do that.

[00:20:00] Yeah.

[00:20:01] Yeah.

[00:20:01] And then it's really interesting.

[00:20:02] We see Oz going to the Moronies to tell them that they've kidnapped Taj.

[00:20:08] The confidence of the Penguin here to walk into the prison

[00:20:11] where Sal and his wife are.

[00:20:14] Sal's the one in prison.

[00:20:15] His wife can get out at any time and has access to all of the Moronies' men.

[00:20:19] He's walking in there going,

[00:20:20] we've kidnapped your son, you know?

[00:20:23] I love the conversation between the two of them

[00:20:25] as Nadia gets really aggressive with them and goes,

[00:20:28] there are rules here, you know?

[00:20:29] This is a member of our family.

[00:20:31] He's not a member of the crime family.

[00:20:32] He's one of our kids.

[00:20:34] You can't threaten to kill him.

[00:20:36] And Oz's response is,

[00:20:37] maybe I kidnapped the wrong one,

[00:20:39] meaning I could have just kidnapped you, Nadia, you know?

[00:20:42] Well, that's it.

[00:20:42] I mean, I kind of feel like it's almost the equivalent of social media

[00:20:46] disrupting everyone's life with all its crap.

[00:20:49] It's like, here we have Oz just disrupting the sort of old age

[00:20:58] and honored traditions of being a crime family.

[00:21:03] Yeah.

[00:21:03] Like, there's rules here.

[00:21:04] And Oz is going against the rules.

[00:21:07] Exactly.

[00:21:07] And I think it's like only later in this episode with Sophia

[00:21:12] do you realize that she's also coming at it from a similar position

[00:21:17] of the rules changing?

[00:21:19] Absolutely.

[00:21:20] Even just in terms of the drug of choice and what it's doing, you know?

[00:21:23] So it's kind of really interesting.

[00:21:25] I love how, as you say,

[00:21:28] like massive kahuna is really there for the Penguin

[00:21:31] in terms of going in face-to-face with Sal.

[00:21:36] And I guess this is where he's tricking them really

[00:21:39] into thinking that it may well be a rules-based order

[00:21:44] whereby, look, we'll make the exchange.

[00:21:47] It is, you get your son back.

[00:21:50] I want my plants back.

[00:21:52] You know, that's the exchange.

[00:21:54] And I love how Nadia speaks with Sal in her own tongue,

[00:22:00] saying like she doesn't trust him.

[00:22:03] You know he's just going to turn on us.

[00:22:04] He's going to turn on us.

[00:22:06] And, I mean, ultimately as well,

[00:22:09] she does think she is playing it safe

[00:22:13] when she goes to actually do the exchange.

[00:22:15] And I think this is where, you know,

[00:22:17] you underestimate Oz Cobb at your peril.

[00:22:20] Absolutely.

[00:22:21] I think she thinks bringing in just three or four extra men

[00:22:25] will be enough.

[00:22:26] Yeah.

[00:22:27] And in the end,

[00:22:30] Oz is just sort of a way more elaborate

[00:22:35] or inventive way of killing Taj and her in that.

[00:22:40] What's the first thing a mother will do

[00:22:42] if her son has been kidnapped and is brought back to her?

[00:22:45] It's to hug him.

[00:22:46] Yeah.

[00:22:48] And Oz just lays a trail of gasoline

[00:22:51] from where he stood and lights her.

[00:22:53] Like there's no doubt the second he got out of that car,

[00:22:58] there was no doubt in my mind he was covered in gasoline.

[00:23:00] That has to be what it was.

[00:23:02] Yeah, well, you see the cans in the back.

[00:23:04] Exactly.

[00:23:04] But the second he walked out,

[00:23:05] you're kind of going,

[00:23:06] okay, Nadia's in a bad place right here.

[00:23:08] But I kind of expected that

[00:23:10] there would be some shots fired off

[00:23:12] and Oz would maybe escape there with his life, basically.

[00:23:16] I didn't think it was going to go down the way it did

[00:23:18] where they actually do take out all of Moroni's men,

[00:23:20] just the two of them.

[00:23:21] Oz and the one guy he brought with him.

[00:23:23] Yeah.

[00:23:23] They take out all of her men

[00:23:25] and as you say,

[00:23:28] set fire to Taj and Nadia.

[00:23:29] That's a really brutal way to kill them.

[00:23:31] And exactly as you were saying a moment ago,

[00:23:33] the big thing about Oz here

[00:23:35] is he is switching up the rule.

[00:23:36] This is the changeover from the old guard of Gotham

[00:23:39] to the people that were subservient to them in the past,

[00:23:43] now rising up and throwing out all the old rules

[00:23:46] because they want to be in charge now.

[00:23:48] In the past, over the course of the many years,

[00:23:50] the Moroni's and the Falconi's have been in power.

[00:23:53] There's been people overthrowing, yeah?

[00:23:55] So there's always been people within the family

[00:23:58] getting into higher positions,

[00:23:59] but they have had the stranglehold on Gotham

[00:24:02] and it's like this moment in Gotham history

[00:24:04] where everybody else is going,

[00:24:06] hang on a second,

[00:24:07] we're not going to give it to these five or ten people

[00:24:09] having control of this city.

[00:24:11] We're going to overthrow it.

[00:24:12] So there's a great conversation

[00:24:13] as Oz has already seen

[00:24:16] that Sophia's killed the Falconis.

[00:24:19] You saw the news report

[00:24:19] and he arrives back to his men

[00:24:21] who are guarding Taj in Eve's apartment

[00:24:25] and he says to them,

[00:24:26] why do you care about any of those people?

[00:24:27] They never paid you well.

[00:24:29] None of you were made men.

[00:24:30] None of you were really part of the family.

[00:24:32] They never gave you the money you deserved.

[00:24:34] None of them deserve any of your tears at all.

[00:24:37] We are now setting up a new crime family

[00:24:39] effectively with Penguin at the head.

[00:24:42] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:24:43] Absolutely.

[00:24:43] And also sort of concurrent to all of this,

[00:24:46] you have Oz after going to face Sal at Blank Gate

[00:24:51] to organize and set up this exchange with Nadia.

[00:24:57] He's paid one of the prison guards

[00:25:00] to sort of shiv Sal at some point.

[00:25:04] I love how it's like proper old school,

[00:25:08] you know, this was from Oz as the guard goes in.

[00:25:11] But Sal does survive this

[00:25:13] and you see him phoning up.

[00:25:15] In a sense, quite gleeful

[00:25:17] because he's survived it

[00:25:19] and, you know, him giving Oz a piece of his mind.

[00:25:22] I mean, this is kind of where it slightly falls apart

[00:25:27] for Oz now

[00:25:27] because not only are the mushrooms destroyed

[00:25:32] from the sprinkler and the fire system

[00:25:36] that's set off with the death of Taj and Nadia,

[00:25:42] it's also that when he's realizing

[00:25:45] that all his mushrooms are dead,

[00:25:47] he gets the call from Sal Roney to say that,

[00:25:52] look, I survived your assassination attempt here.

[00:25:55] I just really liked how it was played.

[00:25:58] It's almost like Oz is angry

[00:26:00] and so he just bites back and he goes,

[00:26:03] well, it's funny you should say that,

[00:26:04] you know, try calling your wife and son.

[00:26:09] And it's just like, that's so brutal.

[00:26:10] Like, but really, really well done.

[00:26:15] Just the delivery of it, I really enjoyed.

[00:26:19] Califarro had some great moments in these seats.

[00:26:21] There's also the one where he's bringing Taj out

[00:26:23] and Taj has got the tape on his mouth

[00:26:26] and Nadia's going,

[00:26:28] remove the tape from my son's mouth.

[00:26:30] And he's going, he's a bit of a talker,

[00:26:31] I'm doing you a favor here.

[00:26:33] I really like that.

[00:26:34] But you're right,

[00:26:35] the kind of threat back to Salvatore there

[00:26:37] where he's telling, effectively,

[00:26:39] he is telling him that he killed his wife.

[00:26:41] There's no moments from these scenes

[00:26:45] where Penguin is trying to cover it up

[00:26:46] or throw the blame on somebody else.

[00:26:48] He walked in there,

[00:26:50] told them, I've kidnapped your son.

[00:26:52] And now he's on the phone to Sal saying,

[00:26:54] I killed your wife and your son.

[00:26:56] So there's no moments

[00:26:56] where he's hiding behind anybody else.

[00:26:58] Not at all.

[00:26:58] You know, like he kind of did

[00:27:00] with the death of Alberto.

[00:27:01] Not anymore.

[00:27:01] It's all out in the open.

[00:27:02] It's playing in real time out in the open.

[00:27:05] But when he killed Alberto,

[00:27:06] he was trying to put it on somebody else.

[00:27:07] He was trying to put it on the Moroni family

[00:27:09] at that time.

[00:27:09] Now it's him going,

[00:27:10] no, I did it.

[00:27:11] And I don't care.

[00:27:12] You know, Sal does say to him

[00:27:14] he wouldn't have gotten out of prison

[00:27:15] if it wasn't for Oz

[00:27:17] because that's how he got access to the keys

[00:27:19] and got himself out of prison.

[00:27:20] Yeah.

[00:27:20] So I thought that was really interesting.

[00:27:22] But his grand plan,

[00:27:24] which was to get all the bliss plants back,

[00:27:26] him to set up the drug operation

[00:27:27] and kill all of the Moronis

[00:27:28] in one fell swoop,

[00:27:29] doesn't work actually

[00:27:30] because now he doesn't have the bliss plants.

[00:27:33] He only has two of them.

[00:27:34] And Sal Moroni is still alive

[00:27:36] and very angry at me.

[00:27:37] Well, interestingly as well is

[00:27:39] I think he's looking at taking out the Moronis

[00:27:43] because he thinks, to my mind,

[00:27:46] that they have also taken care of Sophia.

[00:27:48] But he sees on the TV in Blackgate

[00:27:51] that Sophia has survived.

[00:27:53] Yes.

[00:27:54] So again, it's another little dent

[00:27:55] to actually his plan,

[00:27:57] but he's taken it too far now

[00:27:59] because he's set up the exchange.

[00:28:01] He's paid the guard, you know?

[00:28:04] And yet he sees that

[00:28:06] there is still a Falcone crime family here

[00:28:10] despite having seen that they have died.

[00:28:13] Yes, exactly.

[00:28:14] You know?

[00:28:14] Exactly.

[00:28:15] Anything else about Oz's play at this point?

[00:28:18] No, I just really liked it.

[00:28:20] I like that he went for it.

[00:28:22] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:28:23] Ultimately.

[00:28:23] All out.

[00:28:24] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:28:25] And that's the thing,

[00:28:26] as he says to Victor,

[00:28:27] you and me to the end.

[00:28:28] So this is like all the cards being pushed in.

[00:28:31] This is the big white meringue wedding

[00:28:36] that they're having.

[00:28:37] Yes.

[00:28:38] You know?

[00:28:38] They're all in.

[00:28:39] And Victor now understands it.

[00:28:42] Oz gets it because he's got no other choice.

[00:28:45] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:28:46] Well, then let's get on to case note number two,

[00:28:48] Sophia's chat with Johnny Vitti

[00:28:50] because that's exactly how last week's episode ended

[00:28:52] with only one member of the Falcone family alive,

[00:28:55] Johnny Vitti.

[00:28:56] And Sophia saying that she needed to talk to him.

[00:28:59] The only other member of the family that's alive

[00:29:01] is Gaia,

[00:29:04] who Sophia had taken out of the house

[00:29:07] while she gassed everybody else other than Johnny.

[00:29:09] Interesting opening to the scene, though,

[00:29:11] where we see Gaia being sent off to a children's home.

[00:29:14] And Sophia doesn't seem massively perturbed

[00:29:17] by what she's just sent her cousin's child off to.

[00:29:22] No, not really.

[00:29:23] It doesn't seem to be comforting her or saying she can stay with me

[00:29:26] or anything like that.

[00:29:27] It's just off she goes to the children's home, you know?

[00:29:29] Which is pretty, you know, again, Sophia, as we can see,

[00:29:32] has had a plan.

[00:29:33] But I don't think she was ever going to suddenly adopt her.

[00:29:36] And I think this is the kind of dividing line with Sophia.

[00:29:41] Yes, it may have been brutal what she did,

[00:29:44] but in a sense, if there's any justification,

[00:29:48] she spelled it out at the dinner table.

[00:29:51] And Gaia has no kind of input into that

[00:29:54] because it was 10 years ago.

[00:29:56] You know, she is innocent.

[00:29:58] Absolutely.

[00:29:59] Absolutely.

[00:29:59] I just more meant her being sent off to the children's home.

[00:30:02] Seemed a bit of a harsh thing to happen to the poor kid

[00:30:04] when she came from a very rich family up until this morning.

[00:30:08] But I think if you're planning,

[00:30:09] it might be something where that's where she's going to

[00:30:12] in the meantime.

[00:30:13] Because I think if you're looking to establish yourself

[00:30:16] as a crime leader in the city,

[00:30:19] that's probably where she's got to focus her time.

[00:30:21] Oh, absolutely.

[00:30:21] Yes, a kid wouldn't be great around there.

[00:30:23] No, I wouldn't have thought so.

[00:30:25] But we do have Police Chief Mackenzie Brock coming back.

[00:30:28] There's a character played by Con O'Neill in the Batman movie.

[00:30:31] Kind of cool to see him back on screen here.

[00:30:33] And it's interesting that as the conversation goes on,

[00:30:36] you realize he's not really there to investigate

[00:30:38] the Falconning murder.

[00:30:39] He's there to just kind of taunt Sophia

[00:30:42] about all her family being dead

[00:30:43] and kind of let her into the idea

[00:30:46] that he probably knows it's her that did it as well.

[00:30:49] But I love the pushback from Sophia.

[00:30:51] Is it just that you're worried about all the kickbacks

[00:30:53] that you're not going to be able to do more?

[00:30:55] Are you going to be sitting around with all your buddies later on

[00:30:57] looking over the crime scene photographs of my family

[00:31:00] and then selling them on to replace that money that you've lost?

[00:31:03] It was just a real good pushback on the Chief.

[00:31:07] It was really good.

[00:31:09] I must say it was really good.

[00:31:10] It's funny though.

[00:31:11] I didn't know whether I fully understood

[00:31:14] the Chief of Police Brock here.

[00:31:18] The voice seemed so strained.

[00:31:20] But I remember that's what it was like in the Batman as well.

[00:31:24] But it just took a while for my ear to tune into the kind of rasp.

[00:31:29] It's more of a rasp.

[00:31:31] It's kind of like he's had surgery on his voice box or something like that.

[00:31:35] I'd have to look that up.

[00:31:36] I know Conor Neal is most well known as an actor in musical theatre.

[00:31:40] He was in Blood Brothers for years.

[00:31:42] That's where he got his first award.

[00:31:44] I think he's a British.

[00:31:46] A British actor, yeah.

[00:31:47] In Blood Brothers, which is a musical.

[00:31:49] So I would presume he may have had some damage to his vocal cords from there.

[00:31:55] But I don't know.

[00:31:56] So I don't want to say that.

[00:31:58] But the choice at least that he's made for this character

[00:32:01] does make it quite difficult to understand.

[00:32:03] And we don't have subtitles on our version of the episode.

[00:32:08] So I couldn't see it there.

[00:32:09] I'd say it was more tuning into it, actually.

[00:32:11] Just because it's so raspy by the nature of the character.

[00:32:18] So, yeah.

[00:32:19] No, I really enjoyed that.

[00:32:21] I love the fact then that kind of transitions

[00:32:23] to going down to the Falcon family crypt

[00:32:28] where he's chained up as Johnny VT.

[00:32:31] So he has survived.

[00:32:33] Yeah.

[00:32:33] It's interesting.

[00:32:34] A bit like Victor Von Doom in the feedback,

[00:32:38] I definitely thought that Johnny VT was going to be there

[00:32:43] to kind of, yeah, like hunt, track Oswald

[00:32:49] because he hated Oswald as much as Sophia now does.

[00:32:55] Yeah.

[00:32:56] So it was interesting then seeing him kind of stuffed down

[00:32:59] in the mausoleum and, in a sense,

[00:33:03] trying to sort of plead for his life here.

[00:33:06] I mean, yeah, you know, he's been drenched with water,

[00:33:10] ice-cold water, down in a crypt,

[00:33:13] and, you know, chained up.

[00:33:17] And Sophia is really,

[00:33:20] she's not going to take no for an answer, basically.

[00:33:22] I mean, like Johnny VT is basically saying just kill me

[00:33:26] because obviously I can't say anything

[00:33:28] that's going to make you forgive me.

[00:33:31] After a while, he starts talking to her

[00:33:33] about how he tried to help Isabella escape,

[00:33:37] and that was the time when Falcone had basically killed her.

[00:33:43] He got wind of it, I presume,

[00:33:45] but that Johnny VT had a car,

[00:33:47] and both Alberto and Sophia were going to be taken with her.

[00:33:54] She was going to leave with her,

[00:33:55] and that she'd done this before,

[00:33:57] but she'd always come back because of Alberto and Sophia.

[00:34:01] And so this time she was going to take them,

[00:34:03] but it didn't play out.

[00:34:05] And I do really, really like the fact

[00:34:09] that Sophia called it out immediately,

[00:34:11] yet you kept on working for him for years.

[00:34:15] You were his underboss, you know?

[00:34:19] Oh, you felt so sorry for her

[00:34:21] that you worked for him for another 10 years,

[00:34:23] 20 years afterwards, yeah.

[00:34:25] And I just really liked this

[00:34:28] because it was just so tense.

[00:34:29] And then as it plays out,

[00:34:31] you realize that the whole thing

[00:34:34] in the mausoleum from Sophia

[00:34:35] was that literally what she needed

[00:34:40] was untraceable money.

[00:34:41] That is what Johnny could help her with.

[00:34:44] That's what she wanted from him.

[00:34:46] Actually, in the end,

[00:34:47] she took a bit of his advice in that.

[00:34:50] Not only did he get the untraceable money for it,

[00:34:52] but he was able to bring in

[00:34:57] those members of the Falcone cartel

[00:35:00] that he would have led and ordered around

[00:35:05] because you need more than just money.

[00:35:08] Johnny, you need reputation and muscle.

[00:35:11] And he brings that,

[00:35:13] but then is dispatched really, really quickly.

[00:35:17] Absolutely.

[00:35:18] And I'm just like going,

[00:35:20] that wasn't a smart play, Johnny,

[00:35:22] what you did there.

[00:35:23] I don't think he had any way out of this.

[00:35:24] No, I don't.

[00:35:25] And what I liked about it,

[00:35:26] you know, when he's talking about

[00:35:27] those stories of Isabella Giganti to Sophia,

[00:35:32] he's still very harsh about it.

[00:35:34] Like he's telling the stories to her

[00:35:35] and then he's going,

[00:35:36] she tried to get away once before.

[00:35:38] If it wasn't for you stupid kids,

[00:35:39] she would have basically.

[00:35:40] So he's not,

[00:35:41] he doesn't seem like he's trying very hard

[00:35:43] to get on Sophia's good side.

[00:35:45] He knows he's dead.

[00:35:46] Either he dies in a horrible way here

[00:35:49] by pneumonia or by freezing to death

[00:35:52] where she leaves him in the mausoleum

[00:35:54] or she'll kill him at some point later

[00:35:56] because when he gives her what she wants,

[00:35:58] she'll kill him is what he believes anyway,

[00:36:01] which turns out to be true.

[00:36:03] So he kind of knew,

[00:36:05] I think that the death was coming at some point,

[00:36:08] but he felt if he offered to bring respect to her

[00:36:12] and bring the family towards her with his help,

[00:36:15] that maybe he could do what he did with Carmine

[00:36:17] and stay at the underboss for a bit longer under Sophia.

[00:36:20] Yeah.

[00:36:21] And to be honest,

[00:36:22] he may have been permitted to do that possibly,

[00:36:27] but I think Sophia is smarter than that.

[00:36:29] Yeah, I don't think so.

[00:36:30] I think she always would have just seen him as a threat

[00:36:34] given he threatened to kill her a few episodes ago.

[00:36:38] I think Sophia hates him.

[00:36:40] And we kind of have this split into two different case notes.

[00:36:43] Our case note number three is goodbye,

[00:36:45] Falcone, hello, Gigante.

[00:36:48] And this is about what happens with Sophia

[00:36:50] after she frees Johnny.

[00:36:54] We don't see how this resolves.

[00:36:56] We see the end of the conversation

[00:36:57] before it goes into the ad break, basically,

[00:36:59] where Johnny Vitti says to her,

[00:37:03] I couldn't save your mother.

[00:37:04] Maybe I can save you.

[00:37:06] And we don't hear her answer to this.

[00:37:08] We just see her going around the house.

[00:37:11] She finds her mother's coat,

[00:37:13] sees her mother's real name on there,

[00:37:16] her maiden name as Gigante.

[00:37:17] And she chooses to take that as her new name for the family.

[00:37:22] And Dr. Julian Rush joins her.

[00:37:25] C.R. Ross' character comes in and joins her,

[00:37:27] saying that he knew instantly when he watched the TV news

[00:37:30] that she's the one that had done the murder.

[00:37:32] And he can feel that she has found her freedom.

[00:37:35] She's finally found the thing that she's been looking for

[00:37:37] for all of those years,

[00:37:38] even when she was in Arkham.

[00:37:39] She's had her revenge.

[00:37:41] She's had her moment.

[00:37:42] And he tells her, effectively,

[00:37:44] that it was never the conversations

[00:37:47] or never the therapy and the treatment of Sophia

[00:37:50] that kept him coming back.

[00:37:51] It's his love for her.

[00:37:52] And he wants to stand by her side

[00:37:54] when she makes this new move.

[00:37:56] So here he is standing by her side.

[00:37:58] By her side for the things to come.

[00:38:01] Like he looks on perfectly fine

[00:38:03] for a medical professional

[00:38:05] after she's put a bullet in Johnny's head.

[00:38:08] And so, yes, I'm wondering if we'll see

[00:38:12] a bit of another side from Julian Rush.

[00:38:14] I don't recognize her name within the Batman canon,

[00:38:17] so I don't know quite how this character will play out.

[00:38:22] But it's almost, as I say,

[00:38:24] it's almost like this reverse Harley Quinn and Joker

[00:38:28] to some extent.

[00:38:29] It's entirely possible.

[00:38:30] Entirely possible, yeah.

[00:38:31] I say reverse, but it's probably the same thing.

[00:38:33] It's the same, yeah.

[00:38:34] It is.

[00:38:35] You know, it's the psychiatrist

[00:38:38] falling in love with the patient, effectively.

[00:38:41] Yeah.

[00:38:42] But I absolutely adored Sofia making her play as leader

[00:38:46] of the Gigante cartel.

[00:38:50] In many respects as well, it's just like,

[00:38:52] she's a real, real good character.

[00:38:56] As I say, like, yes, she's still crime lord.

[00:38:59] She will kill.

[00:39:01] Not many redeeming features in that sense.

[00:39:04] But you sense how she's been wronged.

[00:39:07] And she, you know, she talks about

[00:39:09] how her mother has been wronged,

[00:39:12] how she was wronged.

[00:39:14] And ultimately, then with the assembled

[00:39:17] sort of underlings or underbosses

[00:39:21] that would report into Johnny Vesey,

[00:39:23] how ultimately they were wronged as well.

[00:39:26] Absolutely.

[00:39:26] And that is a big, important point here

[00:39:28] that she's making.

[00:39:29] And again, it ties into exactly the point

[00:39:31] that Oz made with his men.

[00:39:32] Yeah.

[00:39:32] None of these people are made men.

[00:39:34] All of them were called in by their boss,

[00:39:37] by Johnny Vesey.

[00:39:38] And she's saying to them,

[00:39:39] You're not made men.

[00:39:41] You're not, yeah.

[00:39:42] You know, not like Johnny Vesey here.

[00:39:44] Exactly.

[00:39:45] And I love that.

[00:39:46] Well, there's two elements to it.

[00:39:47] First of all, I'm going to address

[00:39:49] the elephant in the room.

[00:39:51] I gas the family, you know.

[00:39:52] And they're all there kind of like, okay.

[00:39:54] And then she kind of just tells them,

[00:39:58] you know, they dispense with my mother

[00:40:00] and they treated her as,

[00:40:02] they treated you as pawns.

[00:40:05] You were overlooked.

[00:40:06] You were expendable.

[00:40:07] I'm going to stop this war

[00:40:11] between the new Gigante cartel

[00:40:15] and the Moronis.

[00:40:18] And, you know,

[00:40:19] you just see Johnny

[00:40:21] just not really getting it.

[00:40:23] He's like, hang on a second.

[00:40:25] Hang on, wait a second.

[00:40:26] It's again what we were saying about Oz,

[00:40:28] this idea of Sophia coming in

[00:40:30] and throwing out all the old rules.

[00:40:32] The idea that you would throw away

[00:40:33] the family name,

[00:40:34] this one that struck fear

[00:40:36] into the heart of everybody

[00:40:37] and has controlled

[00:40:38] the lawmakers,

[00:40:40] controlled the police service,

[00:40:41] controlled everything in the city

[00:40:43] and throw that name out

[00:40:44] for the name of

[00:40:45] a woman who died 20 years ago,

[00:40:47] effectively.

[00:40:48] And it was strangled to death

[00:40:49] by Falcone.

[00:40:51] Instantly, you see Johnny's going,

[00:40:53] you can't do this.

[00:40:53] And she's absolutely standing up

[00:40:56] in front of all of these people

[00:40:57] and going, it's a new time.

[00:40:59] You will get paid more money

[00:41:00] than you ever thought

[00:41:01] and you will get paid

[00:41:02] what you're worth as well.

[00:41:03] So she hands over

[00:41:04] all of that money,

[00:41:06] the clean money

[00:41:06] that has no connection

[00:41:07] to the family.

[00:41:08] She hands it all over to them.

[00:41:10] They have to come

[00:41:10] and take it to join her.

[00:41:11] And turns it into blood money

[00:41:13] because she pulls it

[00:41:13] into the blood

[00:41:14] that spilled out

[00:41:15] from Johnny's brains

[00:41:17] onto the table.

[00:41:18] I really, you know,

[00:41:19] it is.

[00:41:20] It's not just that he interrupts

[00:41:22] her about the family name,

[00:41:23] but it's almost a protest

[00:41:24] that, as you say,

[00:41:25] the new direction.

[00:41:27] Yeah.

[00:41:27] That she's going to stop

[00:41:28] and make peace

[00:41:29] with the Moronis.

[00:41:30] It's like,

[00:41:30] well, we wouldn't do that.

[00:41:32] Absolutely.

[00:41:32] You know, we finished them off

[00:41:34] and I think it links in really well

[00:41:36] with her conversation then

[00:41:38] with Moroni.

[00:41:39] Mm-hmm.

[00:41:40] Which I think is really superb.

[00:41:42] But, yeah,

[00:41:43] she gives them the money

[00:41:44] and they're there, you know,

[00:41:46] to go and work for her.

[00:41:48] And you have Julian Rush

[00:41:50] looking on

[00:41:50] all quite pleased as punt.

[00:41:52] Absolutely.

[00:41:52] He knows what's going to happen,

[00:41:54] I think,

[00:41:55] at that point.

[00:41:56] But I almost got the feeling

[00:41:58] that she was,

[00:41:59] this was her big thing

[00:42:01] that she was going to do.

[00:42:03] Regardless of whether

[00:42:03] Johnny gave her the money or not,

[00:42:06] I felt like she was going

[00:42:07] to kill him

[00:42:07] in front of everybody

[00:42:08] to prove

[00:42:10] that she was willing to do it.

[00:42:12] It's easy to walk into a room

[00:42:13] and I don't think anybody

[00:42:14] doubted that she was responsible,

[00:42:16] but it's easy to walk into a room

[00:42:17] and go,

[00:42:17] yep,

[00:42:17] I killed all of my family,

[00:42:19] but much more difficult

[00:42:20] and much more underlying

[00:42:21] of your position

[00:42:22] if you walk into the room

[00:42:23] with your uncle

[00:42:24] and kill him

[00:42:25] in front of everybody else

[00:42:25] and go,

[00:42:26] a new family is starting now.

[00:42:28] You know,

[00:42:29] that is

[00:42:30] a much more definitive

[00:42:31] moment for everybody

[00:42:33] in the room

[00:42:33] to realize

[00:42:34] that you actually mean

[00:42:35] what you say, right?

[00:42:36] Yeah, definitely.

[00:42:37] It could have been

[00:42:37] just an accidental

[00:42:39] ghastly

[00:42:39] that killed all of her family

[00:42:40] and she's taken credit for it.

[00:42:41] Here, right now,

[00:42:42] you can see her

[00:42:43] with a gun

[00:42:43] putting a bullet

[00:42:44] in her uncle's head.

[00:42:45] Yeah,

[00:42:45] you know exactly

[00:42:46] who she is

[00:42:47] from that moment onwards

[00:42:48] and again,

[00:42:48] she joins the ranks

[00:42:50] of the new villains

[00:42:52] of Gotham,

[00:42:53] I think,

[00:42:53] here.

[00:42:53] The only old villain

[00:42:55] of Gotham we have now

[00:42:55] left is Sal Moroni.

[00:42:58] Yeah,

[00:42:59] absolutely.

[00:43:00] And I think

[00:43:00] onto our case note

[00:43:02] number four.

[00:43:03] Yes,

[00:43:04] Sal Moroni,

[00:43:04] like a stuck pig,

[00:43:06] is hanging out

[00:43:07] in a safe house

[00:43:08] ordering in Italian food

[00:43:10] from New Jersey

[00:43:11] and New York City.

[00:43:12] No,

[00:43:13] he's hanging out

[00:43:14] at his funky hideout.

[00:43:16] Yes.

[00:43:17] And I love how she says,

[00:43:20] I see you're fond of wood

[00:43:22] because it's a log cabin

[00:43:25] covered in wood,

[00:43:27] wood,

[00:43:27] wood,

[00:43:28] wood,

[00:43:28] wood.

[00:43:28] But,

[00:43:29] yeah,

[00:43:30] I mean,

[00:43:30] this is really good

[00:43:31] because immediately

[00:43:31] one of the new underbosses,

[00:43:34] you know,

[00:43:34] he sticks his head in.

[00:43:36] He's the one

[00:43:37] that shot the two

[00:43:38] guards.

[00:43:39] Yeah.

[00:43:40] As she walks in

[00:43:41] with her revolver

[00:43:42] in her hand,

[00:43:43] but it's a really

[00:43:44] great entrance.

[00:43:45] But I love how,

[00:43:46] you know,

[00:43:47] she comes in

[00:43:48] and first of all

[00:43:49] just says,

[00:43:49] I'm here to put an end

[00:43:51] to,

[00:43:51] you know,

[00:43:52] our family war.

[00:43:54] And of which

[00:43:55] to Sal,

[00:43:56] that would immediately be,

[00:43:57] I'm getting a bullet

[00:43:58] in the head.

[00:43:58] Absolutely.

[00:43:59] And I like how then

[00:44:00] she kind of brings this

[00:44:02] around about

[00:44:03] the,

[00:44:04] effectively,

[00:44:05] you know,

[00:44:05] the reason for being

[00:44:06] of the Moronies

[00:44:07] versus the Falcons.

[00:44:09] You know,

[00:44:10] Sal says the Falcone family,

[00:44:11] they just eat each other.

[00:44:13] And,

[00:44:13] you know,

[00:44:15] Sophia's kind of saying,

[00:44:16] but I see the Moronies,

[00:44:17] you know,

[00:44:18] you care too much

[00:44:20] about your family.

[00:44:21] Yes.

[00:44:22] And Carmine

[00:44:23] always says

[00:44:24] you were sentimental.

[00:44:26] But then she brings it

[00:44:28] back to Oz

[00:44:28] to say,

[00:44:29] with my family,

[00:44:31] I had a driver

[00:44:32] who ratted me out

[00:44:33] hinting that it's Oz Cobb

[00:44:36] and he was rewarded.

[00:44:38] I was the one

[00:44:39] that was punished

[00:44:39] for over 10 years

[00:44:41] at Arkham

[00:44:42] with the family

[00:44:43] lying against me,

[00:44:45] you know,

[00:44:45] spinning against me.

[00:44:47] And effectively,

[00:44:49] Sal Moroni turns around

[00:44:50] and says,

[00:44:51] I would have cut out

[00:44:52] his tongue.

[00:44:53] And that's the thing.

[00:44:55] She tells him,

[00:44:57] I'm not a Falcone

[00:44:58] because he is.

[00:44:59] He's kind of like,

[00:45:00] but you're a Falcone.

[00:45:01] And so she goes,

[00:45:02] no,

[00:45:03] I'm a Gigante.

[00:45:04] You know,

[00:45:05] and she offers

[00:45:05] this alliance to Sal

[00:45:07] to merge the families,

[00:45:08] kill Oz Cobb

[00:45:10] and take over

[00:45:11] the city together.

[00:45:13] And I just loved

[00:45:14] how this played out.

[00:45:16] Absolutely.

[00:45:17] Yeah.

[00:45:17] Really,

[00:45:18] really good.

[00:45:18] And such a great scene

[00:45:20] between these two.

[00:45:21] Yeah.

[00:45:21] Yeah.

[00:45:22] And another one

[00:45:22] of those rules

[00:45:22] you don't break

[00:45:23] when you're in

[00:45:23] the two biggest crime families.

[00:45:25] You don't merge

[00:45:25] the two families together

[00:45:26] to take over the city.

[00:45:27] The battle was always

[00:45:28] between those two families.

[00:45:30] And her going,

[00:45:31] nope,

[00:45:31] that's not what it's about

[00:45:32] this time.

[00:45:33] It's about us getting together

[00:45:34] and we will run the city

[00:45:36] with the new drug effectively.

[00:45:37] So,

[00:45:39] but as I say,

[00:45:40] putting it at the top of the list

[00:45:41] that it's Oz's fault,

[00:45:42] I'm not going to kill you

[00:45:43] because that's what Oz

[00:45:43] has been trying to manipulate us into.

[00:45:45] The amount of people

[00:45:46] who have looked at Oz Cobb

[00:45:48] in this show

[00:45:49] and underestimated him

[00:45:51] and he has been manipulating

[00:45:53] behind the scenes.

[00:45:54] He does believe

[00:45:55] that he's getting what he wants

[00:45:56] by sitting back in the darkness

[00:45:57] in the shadows

[00:45:58] and pulling all the strings.

[00:46:00] And he's been doing it,

[00:46:01] you know,

[00:46:02] he has been getting

[00:46:02] what he wants.

[00:46:04] But she's saying,

[00:46:05] enough of that.

[00:46:06] I don't care what

[00:46:07] anybody tells me.

[00:46:09] The two of us

[00:46:09] are ganging up together

[00:46:10] and we're taking out Oz Cobb

[00:46:11] together.

[00:46:12] He's been manipulating us

[00:46:13] from behind the scenes.

[00:46:13] Yeah,

[00:46:13] he's our common enemy.

[00:46:15] He's the common threat.

[00:46:17] He's the one that has you

[00:46:19] with a wound in your stomach

[00:46:21] that has meant

[00:46:22] the death of your wife

[00:46:24] and so on.

[00:46:25] And it is to the point

[00:46:26] Sal's response

[00:46:27] is hugely emotional

[00:46:31] and,

[00:46:32] you know,

[00:46:33] revenge,

[00:46:35] vengeance orientated.

[00:46:36] You know,

[00:46:36] when,

[00:46:38] you know,

[00:46:38] when he calls Oz,

[00:46:40] after he survived

[00:46:41] that knife attack,

[00:46:42] you know,

[00:46:42] he's the,

[00:46:43] I'll hunt you down.

[00:46:44] There's nowhere

[00:46:45] you can hide.

[00:46:46] That's what Sophia

[00:46:49] has been saying

[00:46:50] should have happened

[00:46:51] to the killers

[00:46:52] of Alberto.

[00:46:53] Yes.

[00:46:53] Nothing happened.

[00:46:55] Yes, exactly.

[00:46:55] Just allowed to be

[00:46:57] the casualty

[00:46:58] of criminal war

[00:47:01] and

[00:47:03] let's not upset

[00:47:04] the boat.

[00:47:04] We can't start

[00:47:05] doing that.

[00:47:06] You know,

[00:47:07] Sal is,

[00:47:08] I'm going after

[00:47:09] Oz.

[00:47:10] Yeah.

[00:47:10] And that's what

[00:47:11] she offers to him.

[00:47:12] Exactly.

[00:47:13] And it's just

[00:47:14] really,

[00:47:15] really good.

[00:47:15] It is.

[00:47:16] It is.

[00:47:17] Love it.

[00:47:18] Let's get on to our

[00:47:18] final case note then.

[00:47:20] Case note number five,

[00:47:20] Oz in exile.

[00:47:21] As you mentioned earlier

[00:47:22] on,

[00:47:22] Oz saying that his choice

[00:47:23] was kind of a fight

[00:47:24] or flight.

[00:47:25] He did the fight

[00:47:25] and now he has to do

[00:47:26] the fight.

[00:47:27] Exactly.

[00:47:28] But it does,

[00:47:29] it does start off

[00:47:30] with Oz sending

[00:47:31] Victor to go and

[00:47:32] pick up Francis Cobb,

[00:47:34] his mom,

[00:47:35] from her home.

[00:47:36] So Victor goes out

[00:47:38] on his own.

[00:47:39] It's an interesting

[00:47:39] moment again with

[00:47:40] Francis where she

[00:47:41] thinks that Victor

[00:47:42] is her son coming

[00:47:43] back,

[00:47:44] showing him the

[00:47:45] baseball glove.

[00:47:46] But I love how her

[00:47:48] sense comes back to

[00:47:49] her at times.

[00:47:50] She's so well played

[00:47:51] when she suddenly

[00:47:52] comes back to

[00:47:53] herself and you

[00:47:54] expect she's just

[00:47:55] going to be,

[00:47:55] you know,

[00:47:55] a nice old lady

[00:47:56] basically,

[00:47:57] you know,

[00:47:57] but suddenly she's

[00:47:59] asking Victor what's

[00:48:01] happening because

[00:48:01] she recognizes him

[00:48:02] and it's very unusual

[00:48:04] that Oz would send

[00:48:04] someone that he

[00:48:05] recognizes.

[00:48:06] So something must

[00:48:06] have gone really

[00:48:08] wrong.

[00:48:09] And Victor's going,

[00:48:10] well actually,

[00:48:11] this is how

[00:48:12] everything's playing

[00:48:12] out.

[00:48:13] The Falcones are

[00:48:14] dead.

[00:48:15] Oz was responsible

[00:48:16] for that.

[00:48:16] That was part of his

[00:48:17] plan and now he's

[00:48:18] taken out the

[00:48:18] Moronis.

[00:48:20] This is all the

[00:48:21] plan coming together

[00:48:22] until the Moronis

[00:48:23] are taken out.

[00:48:24] I'll be here to

[00:48:25] take care of you

[00:48:26] basically.

[00:48:27] But that's it.

[00:48:27] It's like there's a

[00:48:28] lot of heat on Oz

[00:48:29] at the moment.

[00:48:30] You know,

[00:48:30] you need to be

[00:48:31] looked after.

[00:48:32] And that's the

[00:48:32] thing.

[00:48:33] It seems really

[00:48:34] good until it's

[00:48:36] not because it's

[00:48:37] gone south.

[00:48:38] But the pride that

[00:48:39] comes out in

[00:48:39] France is when she

[00:48:40] hears that the

[00:48:41] Falcones have been

[00:48:42] taken out by Oz

[00:48:43] because she's

[00:48:44] thinking of the

[00:48:44] Falcones as being

[00:48:45] the much bigger

[00:48:46] crime family.

[00:48:47] There's no way Oz

[00:48:47] could get to them

[00:48:48] and he worked for

[00:48:49] them.

[00:48:50] And equally,

[00:48:51] it's the

[00:48:51] disappointment of

[00:48:53] being brought

[00:48:54] back to Crown

[00:48:55] Point.

[00:48:57] So we'd heard

[00:48:58] that Oz had

[00:49:00] grown up in the

[00:49:00] same area,

[00:49:03] area, slightly

[00:49:03] different.

[00:49:03] goes by.

[00:49:04] Yeah.

[00:49:06] As Victor.

[00:49:08] And I just

[00:49:09] really enjoy

[00:49:10] her conversation

[00:49:13] with Victor.

[00:49:15] She just said

[00:49:16] how it reminded

[00:49:18] her of her

[00:49:18] apartment, that

[00:49:19] she had the

[00:49:21] kids brought

[00:49:24] up and that

[00:49:25] the place is

[00:49:26] cursed.

[00:49:26] You realize she

[00:49:28] has no love for

[00:49:29] this neighborhood.

[00:49:30] Absolutely.

[00:49:30] what it did,

[00:49:31] what happened

[00:49:32] here.

[00:49:33] And it's kind

[00:49:34] of alluded to a

[00:49:35] bit when Victor

[00:49:36] asks Oz what

[00:49:37] happened to his

[00:49:38] brothers and

[00:49:39] kind of non-committally

[00:49:41] just says the

[00:49:43] city took them

[00:49:44] in the same way

[00:49:45] that it took your

[00:49:46] parents and your

[00:49:47] sister.

[00:49:48] It was the city

[00:49:50] that killed them,

[00:49:51] that took them.

[00:49:52] And you get that

[00:49:53] sense a bit from

[00:49:54] Francis.

[00:49:55] I still think

[00:49:55] there's more to

[00:49:56] find out there.

[00:49:57] But I just like

[00:50:00] how her

[00:50:02] disappointment here,

[00:50:03] you know, as Oz

[00:50:04] comes back, that

[00:50:08] scene with Oz

[00:50:10] kind of cradling

[00:50:11] his mom is so

[00:50:13] utterly fantastic

[00:50:14] as he's trying to

[00:50:15] apologize to her,

[00:50:16] saying that he's

[00:50:17] going to fix it.

[00:50:19] you know,

[00:50:22] he's still got his

[00:50:22] big dreams and

[00:50:24] she's like, you

[00:50:25] know, like your

[00:50:25] father.

[00:50:26] So, and then

[00:50:27] she's just like,

[00:50:28] are you trying to

[00:50:29] kill me?

[00:50:29] Bringing me back

[00:50:30] here, reminding

[00:50:31] me who I lost,

[00:50:34] you know, as

[00:50:34] those, because

[00:50:35] she's really

[00:50:36] like, get off

[00:50:37] me.

[00:50:38] Yeah.

[00:50:38] So it suggests

[00:50:40] something really

[00:50:41] traumatic here that

[00:50:42] in a sense is being

[00:50:45] masked really with

[00:50:46] the dementia.

[00:50:47] Well, absolutely.

[00:50:48] Yeah.

[00:50:48] Potentially.

[00:50:50] Yeah, definitely.

[00:50:51] And I suppose that

[00:50:52] the plan in her mind

[00:50:53] when she does have

[00:50:54] her faculties about

[00:50:55] her, the plan in

[00:50:55] her mind has been

[00:50:57] Oz will get her

[00:50:58] out of the

[00:51:00] squalor that she

[00:51:01] lived in almost,

[00:51:02] the apartment that

[00:51:02] she lived in.

[00:51:03] He did that.

[00:51:03] He moved her to

[00:51:04] the suburbs.

[00:51:05] And then the next

[00:51:06] stage after that,

[00:51:08] because we've

[00:51:08] already heard her

[00:51:08] complain about the

[00:51:09] house that she

[00:51:09] lives in in the

[00:51:10] suburbs, the next

[00:51:11] stage after that

[00:51:11] was that Oz was

[00:51:12] going to set her up

[00:51:13] for life in a

[00:51:13] beautiful apartment,

[00:51:14] a beautiful home.

[00:51:16] And Oz has never

[00:51:17] achieved that and

[00:51:17] now he's in fact

[00:51:18] going backwards.

[00:51:19] So even when he

[00:51:20] achieves his goals,

[00:51:21] even when she hears

[00:51:22] everything from

[00:51:22] Victor about what

[00:51:23] he's done, she's

[00:51:25] still not getting

[00:51:26] out of there.

[00:51:26] So she again says,

[00:51:27] I think she said

[00:51:28] to him before,

[00:51:28] what kind of kid

[00:51:29] can't take care of

[00:51:30] their mom?

[00:51:31] This is the second

[00:51:31] time she's said that

[00:51:32] to Oz.

[00:51:33] So she's holding

[00:51:34] that over him

[00:51:34] constantly.

[00:51:35] And it does feel

[00:51:36] like we're going

[00:51:36] to see that

[00:51:36] backstory at some

[00:51:37] point this season.

[00:51:38] If you're telling

[00:51:39] the story about

[00:51:40] Oz, you've got to

[00:51:40] see what happened

[00:51:42] to his brothers and

[00:51:42] what happened to

[00:51:43] his dad.

[00:51:43] Yeah.

[00:51:43] So I wonder if

[00:51:45] they either worked

[00:51:46] for the Moronies

[00:51:48] or the Falcones

[00:51:48] and died because

[00:51:49] of it.

[00:51:49] And that's what

[00:51:50] Oz's plan has

[00:51:50] always been to

[00:51:51] get that revenge

[00:51:52] from the position

[00:51:54] that he was in.

[00:51:54] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:51:55] It feels a bit

[00:51:56] like that.

[00:51:57] But I think the

[00:51:58] other side of it

[00:51:59] then is even in

[00:52:01] his lowest moment

[00:52:01] then with him in

[00:52:04] exile, he's managed

[00:52:07] to salvage two of

[00:52:08] the mushroom sort

[00:52:09] of buckets that

[00:52:11] Nadia had

[00:52:12] exchanged.

[00:52:13] Yes, but he

[00:52:13] couldn't salvage

[00:52:14] his relationship

[00:52:15] with Eve though.

[00:52:16] Eve got really

[00:52:17] stressed out when

[00:52:18] he arrived there

[00:52:19] with Taj at the

[00:52:20] beginning, earlier

[00:52:21] on in the episode.

[00:52:22] And when he comes

[00:52:22] back to say he

[00:52:23] needs to go

[00:52:24] underground, he

[00:52:24] needs to go and

[00:52:26] lay low for a

[00:52:26] while, she needs

[00:52:27] to come with

[00:52:28] him.

[00:52:28] And Eve's like,

[00:52:29] I am out.

[00:52:30] I cannot go

[00:52:31] with you.

[00:52:32] And he absolutely

[00:52:33] freaks out.

[00:52:34] We haven't seen

[00:52:35] Oz this angry, I

[00:52:35] think, for most of

[00:52:37] the season.

[00:52:37] We've seen him get

[00:52:38] stressed out.

[00:52:39] But certainly with

[00:52:39] Eve, he's not lost

[00:52:40] his temper like

[00:52:41] this before.

[00:52:42] She does calm

[00:52:43] him down though.

[00:52:44] Yeah, she does.

[00:52:45] I'm sure you'll be

[00:52:46] back on top.

[00:52:46] And when you're

[00:52:47] back on top, come

[00:52:47] back to me,

[00:52:48] basically.

[00:52:49] Yeah, I mean, I

[00:52:49] think it's going

[00:52:51] to be a complicated

[00:52:54] relationship, if

[00:52:55] any, there.

[00:52:56] Because I felt as

[00:52:57] though she salvaged

[00:52:58] it.

[00:52:59] I think whether

[00:53:00] Oz accepts that

[00:53:01] or whether he just

[00:53:02] uses that again at

[00:53:03] some later date.

[00:53:04] But, you know,

[00:53:05] and it's also

[00:53:06] because she calms

[00:53:08] him down, the way

[00:53:09] she says it, like,

[00:53:10] you know, we

[00:53:10] had a deal.

[00:53:11] Me and my

[00:53:12] girls wouldn't

[00:53:13] get heat.

[00:53:14] Yeah.

[00:53:14] And that's what

[00:53:15] he's brought on

[00:53:16] her.

[00:53:16] So he calms

[00:53:17] down.

[00:53:18] And I wonder if

[00:53:18] it's the

[00:53:19] realization that,

[00:53:20] well, I have

[00:53:22] brought heat

[00:53:22] here.

[00:53:23] He has.

[00:53:23] On to her

[00:53:25] and to her

[00:53:26] apartment, both

[00:53:27] with Sophia, but

[00:53:28] also with the

[00:53:29] fact of bringing

[00:53:31] Maroney's son

[00:53:32] to the house.

[00:53:33] But Sophia's one

[00:53:34] probably is more

[00:53:35] scary for her

[00:53:36] because she's

[00:53:36] just seen on the

[00:53:37] news that she's

[00:53:37] killed all of her

[00:53:38] family in their home

[00:53:39] and she was in

[00:53:39] the room with

[00:53:40] Eve and the

[00:53:41] girls selling the

[00:53:41] drugs.

[00:53:42] So that's a

[00:53:43] direct connection

[00:53:44] to find out

[00:53:45] where Oz is.

[00:53:45] If Sophia's

[00:53:46] looking for him,

[00:53:47] she's going to be

[00:53:47] coming back to the

[00:53:48] house.

[00:53:48] And yes, Taj

[00:53:49] was there, but

[00:53:50] Maroney probably

[00:53:51] wouldn't know that

[00:53:52] Taj was there.

[00:53:52] No.

[00:53:53] But she's angry

[00:53:53] about being

[00:53:54] involved in it

[00:53:55] overall and him

[00:53:55] using her place

[00:53:56] as kind of a

[00:53:57] hideout.

[00:53:58] So that's probably

[00:53:59] where it goes.

[00:54:00] But yeah, you're

[00:54:01] right.

[00:54:09] So whether he

[00:54:10] salvaged things

[00:54:11] with Eve is still

[00:54:12] to be seen or

[00:54:13] whether she in

[00:54:14] fact survives Oz

[00:54:16] at all.

[00:54:17] I have a feeling

[00:54:18] that's number

[00:54:19] one for the

[00:54:20] Maroney.

[00:54:20] I would say so.

[00:54:21] But he does

[00:54:22] manage to salvage

[00:54:24] two buckets of

[00:54:26] mushrooms.

[00:54:27] And, you know,

[00:54:29] I like the fact

[00:54:30] that the box of

[00:54:32] memories that

[00:54:33] Frances has brought

[00:54:34] with her to

[00:54:35] Crown Point.

[00:54:35] I love the fact

[00:54:36] that she arrives

[00:54:37] in Crown Point

[00:54:38] with a bejeweled

[00:54:39] lamp, bedside

[00:54:40] lamp that she's

[00:54:42] holding.

[00:54:43] Like it just

[00:54:44] looks so sort

[00:54:45] of tacky.

[00:54:46] But I just love

[00:54:47] the fact that

[00:54:47] that's what she's

[00:54:48] holding on to.

[00:54:49] Of course.

[00:54:49] As kind of you

[00:54:50] have Victor

[00:54:53] trying to sort

[00:54:53] of usher her

[00:54:54] into the sort

[00:54:57] of abandoned

[00:54:58] apartment so

[00:54:59] that he's not

[00:55:00] spotted by squid.

[00:55:02] Yes.

[00:55:03] But he is

[00:55:03] spotted by squid.

[00:55:04] And whilst that's

[00:55:05] to be played

[00:55:06] out, like it's

[00:55:08] kind of left

[00:55:08] in this episode,

[00:55:10] squid does see

[00:55:12] him going into

[00:55:13] the building.

[00:55:14] And just a

[00:55:14] reminder, squid

[00:55:15] is the cousin

[00:55:17] of the kid who

[00:55:17] was murdered by

[00:55:18] Sophia, who

[00:55:19] was out with

[00:55:20] Victor trying to

[00:55:21] steal the

[00:55:21] hope caps off

[00:55:22] of Oz's

[00:55:24] Maserati.

[00:55:26] But also he

[00:55:27] was on the

[00:55:27] rooftop then out

[00:55:28] of the fireworks

[00:55:29] that what they

[00:55:29] thought was going

[00:55:30] to be the

[00:55:30] fireworks but

[00:55:31] turned out to

[00:55:31] be the flood

[00:55:32] into Crown

[00:55:32] Point.

[00:55:33] So he knows

[00:55:34] Vic very well.

[00:55:35] Vic doesn't get

[00:55:35] on with him.

[00:55:36] And he was

[00:55:37] called a drug

[00:55:38] dealer as well.

[00:55:38] So which family

[00:55:39] is he connected

[00:55:40] to?

[00:55:40] Does he have

[00:55:41] a connection?

[00:55:42] Has that

[00:55:42] connection gotten

[00:55:43] closer since the

[00:55:44] Crown Point

[00:55:46] flooding a couple

[00:55:47] of weeks

[00:55:47] beforehand?

[00:55:48] So he seems to

[00:55:49] have his own

[00:55:49] gang that he's

[00:55:51] sending into all

[00:55:52] the houses of

[00:55:52] Crown Point,

[00:55:53] stealing all the

[00:55:53] stuff inside.

[00:55:54] And he definitely

[00:55:55] sees Victor

[00:55:56] going into the

[00:55:57] house with

[00:55:57] Francis.

[00:55:58] So will this be

[00:55:59] the way that

[00:55:59] they find Oz

[00:56:00] and hit where

[00:56:01] his mom is?

[00:56:02] Well that's

[00:56:03] it.

[00:56:03] It depends how

[00:56:04] this plays out.

[00:56:04] It depends how

[00:56:05] they kind of

[00:56:06] what direction

[00:56:07] they take it

[00:56:07] because it

[00:56:09] could equally

[00:56:09] be that Oz

[00:56:11] manipulates

[00:56:12] squid and I

[00:56:14] guess an

[00:56:15] aquatic animal.

[00:56:17] So maybe

[00:56:17] that's where

[00:56:18] the penguin

[00:56:20] and the squid.

[00:56:21] But just

[00:56:22] because she

[00:56:23] has killed

[00:56:24] his cousin.

[00:56:25] And you can

[00:56:26] see in some

[00:56:27] respects,

[00:56:28] yeah he doesn't

[00:56:29] necessarily get

[00:56:31] on with Victor

[00:56:32] but it wasn't

[00:56:32] so much that

[00:56:33] they were

[00:56:33] fighting,

[00:56:34] it was more

[00:56:34] because Victor

[00:56:35] got a lot of

[00:56:36] hassle from his

[00:56:37] dad because it

[00:56:38] was his dad who

[00:56:39] didn't like squid.

[00:56:40] It was about that

[00:56:41] it felt to me.

[00:56:43] And I feel as

[00:56:44] though squid is

[00:56:45] looking at Victor

[00:56:46] along the lines

[00:56:47] of oh there's

[00:56:49] Victor, he might

[00:56:50] know where my

[00:56:50] cousin is.

[00:56:51] Well maybe,

[00:56:51] yeah.

[00:56:52] Yeah, maybe it's

[00:56:52] that.

[00:56:54] He doesn't.

[00:56:55] But it was just

[00:56:55] when Victor was

[00:56:56] talking with his

[00:56:56] girlfriend and

[00:56:57] they were on the

[00:56:57] rooftop he says to

[00:56:58] her I didn't even

[00:56:59] know he was going

[00:56:59] to be here,

[00:57:00] I can't believe

[00:57:00] he's here.

[00:57:01] He lied to his

[00:57:01] father saying he

[00:57:02] definitely wouldn't

[00:57:03] be there,

[00:57:03] he's hardly ever

[00:57:04] around and then

[00:57:05] he turns out to

[00:57:05] be there and he

[00:57:06] apologizes to his

[00:57:07] girlfriend on the

[00:57:08] roof.

[00:57:10] I don't think

[00:57:11] they're firm

[00:57:11] friends but I

[00:57:12] think he knows

[00:57:14] how to play

[00:57:16] squid but I

[00:57:18] think the good

[00:57:19] thing here is

[00:57:20] that's something

[00:57:20] that hopefully

[00:57:21] we'll see in

[00:57:22] the next few

[00:57:22] episodes as to

[00:57:23] how that plays

[00:57:24] out because

[00:57:24] with salvaging

[00:57:26] the two plants

[00:57:27] and having a

[00:57:28] spark of

[00:57:29] inspiration from

[00:57:29] the memory box

[00:57:30] that has been

[00:57:31] brought over

[00:57:34] he goes to

[00:57:36] all these

[00:57:36] underground

[00:57:37] passageways from

[00:57:39] the old trolley

[00:57:40] lines that are

[00:57:42] beneath Gotham

[00:57:43] in order to

[00:57:45] use that

[00:57:46] humid

[00:57:47] atmosphere in

[00:57:49] order to grow

[00:57:50] the shrooms and

[00:57:51] for it to be his

[00:57:52] base of operation

[00:57:53] again.

[00:57:54] I absolutely

[00:57:55] adored this

[00:57:56] outcome because

[00:57:58] it just reminded

[00:58:00] me of just how

[00:58:02] you can freshen

[00:58:03] up the

[00:58:06] character's journey

[00:58:07] of the penguin

[00:58:08] this idea that

[00:58:09] there'd be

[00:58:10] and it kind of

[00:58:11] freshen up what

[00:58:12] was done in

[00:58:13] Batman returns

[00:58:14] this idea of being

[00:58:16] in the

[00:58:17] the sewers and

[00:58:18] underground Gotham

[00:58:19] and you've seen

[00:58:20] that previously

[00:58:22] in comics with the

[00:58:24] penguin but this is

[00:58:25] about still being

[00:58:26] underground in

[00:58:27] Gotham and but

[00:58:29] it's on the trolley

[00:58:30] line it's got the

[00:58:31] the water works

[00:58:33] as well you see

[00:58:34] that and I just

[00:58:35] love this this means

[00:58:36] that Oz can move

[00:58:38] about Gotham

[00:58:41] undetected using

[00:58:42] the tunnels

[00:58:43] yeah and and

[00:58:44] he's also in a

[00:58:45] relatively unexpected

[00:58:47] location yeah so

[00:58:48] I thought this was

[00:58:50] really really good

[00:58:51] and I liked how

[00:58:52] both Oz and

[00:58:54] Victor sort of

[00:58:55] respond to one

[00:58:56] another as you

[00:58:57] know Oz says

[00:58:58] it's warm and

[00:58:59] moist here which

[00:59:00] is good for what

[00:59:01] and you know

[00:59:02] Victor answers

[00:59:02] with mushrooms

[00:59:04] and there's just

[00:59:05] this kind of like

[00:59:07] almost gleeful

[00:59:10] like laughter

[00:59:11] and realizing

[00:59:12] that they've got

[00:59:13] this new base of

[00:59:14] operation

[00:59:15] absolutely it's

[00:59:16] cool just just

[00:59:16] finding the super

[00:59:17] villains hide out

[00:59:18] yeah absolutely

[00:59:19] I think one of the

[00:59:20] cool things about

[00:59:21] being a Batman fan

[00:59:22] and Batman universe

[00:59:23] fan now and

[00:59:24] having watched

[00:59:25] Gotham and having

[00:59:26] watched the Nolan

[00:59:27] movies and the

[00:59:28] Tim Burton movies

[00:59:29] you know we've

[00:59:30] lived long enough

[00:59:32] now to have three

[00:59:32] or four massive

[00:59:34] reinventions of

[00:59:35] this world of

[00:59:36] this of yeah how

[00:59:38] you make it more

[00:59:39] grounded more

[00:59:39] realistic when the

[00:59:40] Christopher Nolan

[00:59:40] movies came out

[00:59:41] they were going

[00:59:42] this is going to

[00:59:42] be much more

[00:59:43] grounded and

[00:59:43] realistic than

[00:59:44] Tim Burton's

[00:59:44] one and when

[00:59:45] Tim Burton's

[00:59:45] one was coming

[00:59:46] out this is going

[00:59:47] to be much

[00:59:47] more grounded

[00:59:47] and realistic

[00:59:48] than the 60s

[00:59:49] Batman that you

[00:59:49] all remember

[00:59:50] and here we are

[00:59:51] 10 years later

[00:59:52] on from Gotham

[00:59:53] which was the

[00:59:54] reimagining of a

[00:59:54] grounded Gotham

[00:59:55] around the GCPDs

[00:59:57] as the center of

[00:59:58] it and here we are

[00:59:59] reimagining once

[01:00:05] man when they're

[01:00:06] reimagining the

[01:00:07] villains and how

[01:00:07] they find their

[01:00:08] villain hangouts

[01:00:09] which we've never

[01:00:09] really gotten in

[01:00:10] any of the other

[01:00:11] ones people just

[01:00:12] moved into mansions

[01:00:14] and yeah absolutely

[01:00:15] we've never really

[01:00:16] gotten one of our

[01:00:18] supervillains getting

[01:00:19] their base of

[01:00:20] operations in a

[01:00:21] realistic world and

[01:00:22] this makes total

[01:00:23] sense here and for

[01:00:24] a realistic reason

[01:00:25] which is I need to

[01:00:26] grow a crop of

[01:00:27] mushroom this is

[01:00:28] warm and moist it's

[01:00:30] also for the time

[01:00:31] being I'm hidden you

[01:00:32] know like he always

[01:00:33] when he arrives in

[01:00:34] Crown Point is you

[01:00:36] know again he's

[01:00:37] saying to Victor

[01:00:38] yeah you know you

[01:00:40] did good kid it was

[01:00:41] a smart thing to do

[01:00:42] now bring in a

[01:00:43] here no one will

[01:00:44] expect that so

[01:00:45] again it's like you

[01:00:46] know it's a good

[01:00:48] outcome for for

[01:00:49] Victor yeah and

[01:00:50] so yeah absolutely

[01:00:51] love this that

[01:00:53] whilst yes in a

[01:00:54] sense he's in exile

[01:00:56] I think he's got a

[01:00:57] good springboard

[01:00:58] definitely definitely

[01:01:00] and what a great use

[01:01:01] of music finding

[01:01:02] that finding the

[01:01:03] base of operations

[01:01:04] are using the

[01:01:04] cure of forest

[01:01:05] the the instrumental

[01:01:07] part of one of my

[01:01:08] favorite cure songs

[01:01:09] it's just got that

[01:01:10] real good tension

[01:01:11] to it and a real

[01:01:12] a real good darkness

[01:01:13] to the song itself

[01:01:14] so and interesting

[01:01:15] it's called the

[01:01:15] forest and they're

[01:01:16] going to be growing

[01:01:16] mushrooms there

[01:01:17] so and so

[01:01:18] obviously intended

[01:01:19] as well any other

[01:01:21] notes any other

[01:01:22] points about the

[01:01:22] episode you want

[01:01:23] to talk about

[01:01:23] that we haven't

[01:01:23] mentioned at all

[01:01:24] the only note I've

[01:01:26] got is that Isabella

[01:01:27] was Johnny's cousin

[01:01:28] don't know if we

[01:01:29] said that don't

[01:01:30] think so we said

[01:01:31] he was related

[01:01:32] but he was her

[01:01:33] cousin

[01:01:34] no we didn't

[01:01:34] mention that and

[01:01:35] he says he's the

[01:01:35] one that introduced

[01:01:36] um Carmine Falcon

[01:01:37] to uh to her

[01:01:38] so almost saying

[01:01:40] this is entirely

[01:01:41] my fault if I

[01:01:42] hadn't introduced

[01:01:43] the two of them

[01:01:43] together they

[01:01:44] wouldn't have fallen

[01:01:44] in love and she

[01:01:45] wouldn't have died

[01:01:45] at his hands so

[01:01:46] that's why he's

[01:01:48] trying to say to

[01:01:48] Sophia that he's

[01:01:49] the right person to

[01:01:50] help her race I

[01:01:51] think in Sophia's

[01:01:52] head it almost

[01:01:52] guarantees he's

[01:01:53] she's going to

[01:01:54] kill her by her

[01:01:55] own hand because

[01:01:56] he's she's kind of

[01:01:57] going oh hang on

[01:01:58] a second so you're

[01:01:58] actually responsible for

[01:01:59] everything then uh

[01:02:00] uncle Johnny I hate

[01:02:01] you even more now

[01:02:02] um so uh yeah

[01:02:04] good good good point

[01:02:05] to mention that as

[01:02:06] well I just want to

[01:02:07] mention how terrible

[01:02:08] security guard uh

[01:02:09] Victor is he's

[01:02:09] supposed to be taking

[01:02:10] care of the boss's

[01:02:11] uh mother uh the

[01:02:12] only most trusted

[01:02:13] person for that and

[01:02:15] um Oz walks into

[01:02:17] the apartment um and

[01:02:19] Oz I would say makes

[01:02:20] quite a lot of noise um

[01:02:21] with his leg the way it

[01:02:22] is and walking

[01:02:23] through in the

[01:02:24] darkness oh yeah

[01:02:25] no movement from

[01:02:25] Victor at all he

[01:02:26] doesn't wake up at

[01:02:27] all uh he is very

[01:02:28] apologetic when he

[01:02:29] does wake up of

[01:02:30] course but yeah

[01:02:30] absolutely but yeah

[01:02:31] not a very good

[01:02:32] security guard yeah

[01:02:34] uh John overall how

[01:02:35] would you rate this

[01:02:36] episode of the

[01:02:37] penguin episode five

[01:02:38] homecoming and I

[01:02:39] love this again um

[01:02:41] this is really um an

[01:02:43] excellent series for me

[01:02:44] um I'd give this

[01:02:46] five subterranean

[01:02:47] shrooms out of five

[01:02:49] um I absolutely loved

[01:02:51] the new base of

[01:02:52] operations I love the

[01:02:54] fact you know

[01:02:54] forced out into the

[01:02:55] open Oz makes a

[01:02:57] play and to some

[01:02:58] extent is mildly

[01:03:00] successful at least

[01:03:01] in taking out or one

[01:03:04] half of the Moroni

[01:03:05] uh crime syndicate

[01:03:06] unfortunately his um

[01:03:08] assassination attempt

[01:03:10] in Blackgate doesn't

[01:03:11] work out and the

[01:03:13] Moronis have failed to

[01:03:14] deal with Sophia

[01:03:16] previously yeah but

[01:03:17] effectively again you

[01:03:19] know yes it doesn't

[01:03:20] play out for him he

[01:03:21] has to make the

[01:03:22] flight he has to go

[01:03:23] into exile but he's

[01:03:27] down the majority of

[01:03:29] the Falcone crime

[01:03:31] syndicate and at

[01:03:32] least their leadership

[01:03:33] yes there are others

[01:03:35] there around but it'll

[01:03:40] be interesting to see

[01:03:40] how that plays out and

[01:03:42] half of the Moroni

[01:03:44] head honchos are gone

[01:03:46] effectively well yeah

[01:03:47] Nadia and Taj so I

[01:03:51] think there's positives

[01:03:52] there for all there

[01:03:53] could be you know I

[01:03:55] feel like he's just

[01:03:56] refined the two

[01:03:57] families to their

[01:03:58] most lethal he's got

[01:03:59] Sal who's willing to

[01:04:00] kill him in revenge

[01:04:02] for the death of his

[01:04:02] wife and child and

[01:04:03] he's got Sophia that's

[01:04:04] willing to kill him

[01:04:04] for being in Arkham

[01:04:06] for 10 years and

[01:04:07] nobody else around to

[01:04:08] hold them back or

[01:04:09] calm them down or

[01:04:10] talk about business to

[01:04:11] them maybe we won't be

[01:04:12] making money if there's

[01:04:12] a big battle going on

[01:04:13] the streets the two of

[01:04:14] them are now out for

[01:04:15] blood against

[01:04:16] Oz and it just feels

[01:04:18] like the refined

[01:04:19] version of evil

[01:04:20] for sure yeah

[01:04:22] love it it's brilliant

[01:04:23] yeah definitely but I

[01:04:25] mean and for me I

[01:04:25] think this whole episode

[01:04:27] is just with like

[01:04:28] there's three scenes for

[01:04:30] me that I absolutely

[01:04:33] think are amazing in

[01:04:35] fact for I think the

[01:04:36] kidnapping of Taj that

[01:04:37] play I just think how

[01:04:39] that shot really really

[01:04:40] well done I love Sophia

[01:04:43] announcing that this is a

[01:04:45] new family this is the

[01:04:47] gigante cartel not the

[01:04:49] falcone and and taking

[01:04:52] out Johnny VT really

[01:04:54] good I love Sophia and

[01:04:59] Salvatore in the log cabin

[01:05:02] such a great scene and

[01:05:04] Oz and his mom Francis

[01:05:06] yeah and I think coupled to

[01:05:09] that the the sort of the

[01:05:11] ending it's just played so

[01:05:13] well I just thought this was

[01:05:15] a great episode so five

[01:05:17] subterranean shrooms out

[01:05:19] of five for me fantastic

[01:05:21] yeah really enjoyed it as

[01:05:22] well um I think we need to

[01:05:24] have a drink John let's head

[01:05:25] on down to the iceberg

[01:05:26] lounge and see if it's open

[01:05:28] this time yes fellow

[01:05:29] Gothamites fellow quizzes

[01:05:31] welcome to the iceberg

[01:05:33] lounge and welcome to the

[01:05:35] fifth question in our iceberg

[01:05:38] lounge quiz for this series

[01:05:40] of penguin at question five

[01:05:44] what are the two line

[01:05:47] numbers shown on the trolley

[01:05:49] carriages in the station

[01:05:51] that Oz and Victor make as

[01:05:53] their base of operations at

[01:05:55] crown point very good line

[01:05:58] numbers okay yes cool one do

[01:06:00] you want to get the question

[01:06:00] one more time yeah what are

[01:06:02] the two line numbers shown on

[01:06:05] the trolley carriages in the

[01:06:06] station that Oz and Victor

[01:06:08] make as their base of

[01:06:09] operations at crown point

[01:06:11] they're the big numbers you'd

[01:06:12] get on the side of the the

[01:06:15] train carriages effectively

[01:06:16] all the trolley carriages

[01:06:18] trolley carriages excellent

[01:06:19] stuff that's great that's our

[01:06:20] fifth question of eight at the

[01:06:22] end of the series email us to

[01:06:23] feedback at tv podcast

[01:06:25] industries dot com with your

[01:06:27] answers to all eight questions

[01:06:28] you can be having the chance of

[01:06:29] getting your hands on some

[01:06:30] penguin goodies and good

[01:06:32] luck fellow quizzes and

[01:06:34] gothamites absolutely excellent

[01:06:36] we do have a little bit of

[01:06:38] feedback in from coffee and

[01:06:40] vodka on this episode he says

[01:06:42] greetings fellow battle

[01:06:43] prepping defenders everyone's

[01:06:45] back for the gathering and

[01:06:46] calling and for once Victor

[01:06:47] wasn't one of those with a gun

[01:06:49] to his head Sophia's doing

[01:06:50] everything right including

[01:06:51] waiting to waste Johnny until he

[01:06:53] gathered the forces and put her

[01:06:55] at the head of the table we

[01:06:56] finally got an uncaged if

[01:06:57] shaved Sal and Oz got his full

[01:07:00] name Oz's poor mother it looks

[01:07:02] like she had to go home again

[01:07:03] you really don't want to push

[01:07:04] anyone in the series too far

[01:07:06] the look of pengi in the family

[01:07:07] firelight was ironically

[01:07:08] chilling looking forward to

[01:07:10] the battle royale after all

[01:07:12] this priming so far so HBO

[01:07:14] four little giants mother

[01:07:16] huggers barbecued moronies with

[01:07:18] mushrooms and underground

[01:07:19] railroads out of five peace

[01:07:21] and take care coffee and vodka

[01:07:22] excellent stuff coffee and vodka

[01:07:25] I know exactly the scene you're

[01:07:27] talking about there of the

[01:07:30] penguin in the family firelight

[01:07:31] yeah it really did look uh

[01:07:35] chilling um and looked as

[01:07:37] chilling as feathers mcgraw as

[01:07:39] well a little more chilling than

[01:07:40] feathers mcgraw it was really

[01:07:42] well captured yeah it's that's

[01:07:44] the thing that some scenes some

[01:07:46] shots just so well done in this

[01:07:49] show really really classy yeah

[01:07:51] absolutely absolutely so thanks so

[01:07:54] much coffee and vodka absolutely

[01:07:55] thanks coffee vodka the feedback

[01:07:57] and one final announcement

[01:07:59] fellow gothamites uh for uh this

[01:08:02] episode it is my co-host's

[01:08:05] birthday today he is a bajillion

[01:08:08] years old happy birthday derek

[01:08:10] thank you very much john yeah

[01:08:12] thanks very much i i feel about a

[01:08:14] billion years old at the moment but

[01:08:15] i've had a good weekend at least uh

[01:08:17] before we uh before we recorded the

[01:08:18] podcast but yes thank you very much

[01:08:20] another happy birthday absolutely

[01:08:22] another orbit around the sun another

[01:08:25] cake day yeah yeah absolutely yeah

[01:08:28] we all have them every year

[01:08:29] hopefully yeah absolutely so i'm i'm

[01:08:31] really enjoying it uh to be honest so

[01:08:33] thank you very much and thanks

[01:08:34] everybody for your messages and we

[01:08:36] will be back next week for the next

[01:08:38] episode of the penguin gold summit

[01:08:39] which will be out on hbo now tv and

[01:08:41] sky atlantic on sunday evening into

[01:08:43] monday morning

[01:08:44] yes thank you for subscribing to the

[01:08:46] podcast fellow gothamites of course as

[01:08:48] well you can support us over on

[01:08:51] patreon and buymeacoffee.com just

[01:08:53] search tv podcast industries but

[01:08:55] importantly you can also support the

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[01:09:05] course sharing the podcast is sharing

[01:09:08] the love yes excellent stuff thanks so

[01:09:10] much for joining us tatia next time

[01:09:12] yeah thanks for joining us fellow

[01:09:13] gothamites as always a pleasure

[01:09:16] chatting all things penggy with you but

[01:09:19] in the meantime keep watching keep

[01:09:22] listening and keep waddling bye bye

[01:09:25] you

[01:09:26] you