[00:00:00] This is the Defenders Podcast on TV Podcast Industries and we're talking about the Season 3 finale of What If, Episode 8, What If.

[00:00:09] The winds blow, the birds sing, the water flows, and our eldest brother, the sun, rises.

[00:00:22] I only wish she could be here with us. I miss her.

[00:00:27] Perhaps she is. Someone, somewhere, is always watching. And ever since her sacrifice, for the first time in all time, it feels like someone is watching over me.

[00:01:07] Welcome back fellow Defenders and fellow Watchers.

[00:01:11] This is TV Podcast Industries and we are discussing the final episode of What If.

[00:01:19] This is Season 3, Episode 8, entitled What If. I am one of your hosts, John.

[00:01:25] I am your other host, Derek, for the finale of What If. I am no one.

[00:01:31] I am someone.

[00:01:32] Yes. It's better to be someone, no one, no one, and everyone someone, John.

[00:01:38] Yes. Indeed. Yes.

[00:01:40] You were getting quite confused by all the no ones and some ones going around. You were like going, but the Watcher's saying it and Peggy's just said it to him.

[00:01:49] Yeah.

[00:01:50] It's like, no, it's different.

[00:01:51] It's slightly different.

[00:01:52] Slightly different.

[00:01:52] Only marginally different.

[00:01:54] Peggy said, but no one's no one. That's what you taught me, Watcher, and later Watcher goes, but everyone's someone. That's what you taught me, Peggy.

[00:02:02] Hang on a second. You can't both give each other the same lesson. Can you? Well, no, that's true.

[00:02:08] But we are here to talk about the finale of What If Season 3 and the finale of the series overall.

[00:02:14] If you haven't subscribed to the podcast, we will, of course, be moving on from What If now.

[00:02:18] If you haven't subscribed to the podcast, make sure you pop on over to our website at tvpodcastindustries.com to subscribe to any mysterious podcast player in the multiverse and get access to all the other episodes of all the other shows that we're doing.

[00:02:30] I think this is our 891st episode of TV Podcast Industries overall.

[00:02:34] I feel we're higher than that.

[00:02:36] We're not. We're 891 on TV Podcast Industries, but we've had loads of other podcasts. We had Gotham TV Podcast as well.

[00:02:42] Oh, on TV Podcasts.

[00:02:44] Yes.

[00:02:44] I thought we'd done a thousand at one point.

[00:02:47] We have probably done about a thousand episodes or more at this stage.

[00:02:51] Yeah.

[00:02:52] Yeah.

[00:02:52] But I'm only counting.

[00:02:54] It feels like it.

[00:02:56] That's what happens when you've been a podcaster for 10 years.

[00:03:01] But we'd love to have you subscribe to us over there and join us for any of the other shows we'll be covering when we get into 2025.

[00:03:06] So we should just say, as we start out this podcast, a very happy new year to you, if you listen to us in 2025.

[00:03:12] Exactly. Indeed.

[00:03:12] Happy new year, fellow defenders.

[00:03:15] Good to have you on board.

[00:03:16] And in the new year, we will have the new Daredevil.

[00:03:20] Yes, we will.

[00:03:21] Yes, we will.

[00:03:22] With the same Charlie Cox in, squeezed into that suit.

[00:03:26] Mm-hmm.

[00:03:27] And Vincent D'Onofrio's back.

[00:03:28] Excellent stuff.

[00:03:29] And Eldon Henson's back.

[00:03:31] Fab.

[00:03:32] Yeah.

[00:03:32] Most of the cast pretty much are all that.

[00:03:34] So it's going to be basically Daredevil season four.

[00:03:37] And we can go foggy.

[00:03:39] Exactly.

[00:03:40] Exactly.

[00:03:41] But with that, let us get into our spoiler-filled discussion of episode eight of season three of What If.

[00:03:50] What If.

[00:03:51] Derek.

[00:03:53] What are some of the episode details here?

[00:03:55] Ditto?

[00:03:55] Is it Ditto?

[00:03:56] It is Ditto.

[00:03:57] But for the final time, I'm not going to not say it on the last episode.

[00:04:00] Maybe I should have given up in episode five and just said it was the same as the last one.

[00:04:03] But the executive producers for the show are Matthew Chauncey, Brian Andrews, and Brad Winterbaum with Kevin Feige.

[00:04:09] Head writer for this series was Matthew Chauncey.

[00:04:11] The story for this episode was written by Brian Andrews, Matthew Chauncey, and Ryan Little.

[00:04:15] And the teleplay by Matthew Chauncey and Ryan Little.

[00:04:18] And the episode was directed by Brian Andrews.

[00:04:20] John, do you want to tell us what they gave us with the synopsis for the finale of What If season three?

[00:04:55] Sure.

[00:05:12] It's a bit too.

[00:05:14] Well, it's a bit too.

[00:05:21] It's a bit too.

[00:05:23] It's a bit too.

[00:05:26] corner of the multiverse and he and the incarnate and the executioner should join together to improve

[00:05:34] the lives of all they survey as they mourn captain carter's death the watcher invites kohori birdie

[00:05:40] and storm to rejoice in her life and ponder the question what's next

[00:05:47] they do really and they have a great outro for this episode that i was pausing so good to see

[00:05:54] all the other possibilities that could be if we had a what if season four which we don't unfortunately

[00:05:59] sorcerer supreme hulk which looks cool very cool very cool um yeah we saw um the return of uh ghost

[00:06:06] rider in there as well yes ghost horse rider ghost horse rider yes that's quite cool loads and loads

[00:06:13] and there was really cool wolverine thanos i think there was yeah yeah as well absolutely yeah there

[00:06:19] was loads loads absolutely i'm sure we'll be able to see a list as the uh that's so cool

[00:06:25] just i think that's the concept art that was used for that uh seemed really good though to see all

[00:06:30] that yeah and i was i was pausing as i went through going i wonder what all these are and there's one

[00:06:35] that had deadpool on it i just couldn't catch what was behind deadpool and eventually i caught it right

[00:06:39] and it's just deadpool with lots and lots of weapons i thought it was like loads of characters

[00:06:43] behind them but it was just deadpool with lots and lots of weapons so uh so that is what is going to be

[00:06:48] next in the future but will we get into our discussion about this episode itself john yeah

[00:06:52] absolutely uh in a sense a lot of our structure is a bit like um that planet that was blown to

[00:07:02] smithereens when the eminence and the watcher uh literally went head to head yeah and i was kind

[00:07:08] of thinking it's captain carter's shield is our is our structure for this episode because i think it

[00:07:12] got broken in almost every episode that happened and got it gets broken a couple of times in this

[00:07:17] episode as well um so yes it is completely broken we normally start out with what if we'd seen it

[00:07:23] before and what cinematic universe movies have we seen this before i think we're gonna in some way

[00:07:28] sort of tentatively like holding on by a thread to our structure we'll try um you know what if we've

[00:07:38] seen this before and i mean and the answer to that question really is that well we haven't i mean this

[00:07:43] is now a sequential story happening and you can view both episode seven and eight ultimately as one

[00:07:52] episode here exactly but what i would say is that you know the cosmic epic scale of this you know is

[00:08:00] very reminiscent of being introduced to that cosmic um scale through the eternals with the celestials

[00:08:09] yeah and their galaxy built and universe building through the emergence like we've seen um through

[00:08:17] some of the uh episodes this season yeah but also um with thor love and thunder with you know the hugely

[00:08:25] powerful and infinite being of destiny uh being introduced there and here we have the watchers

[00:08:33] ultimately massively powerful uh looking over things at a multiversal cosmic scale yeah of um the known

[00:08:45] reality in that sense yes and yeah so it's that scale really i think yeah absolutely and it is

[00:08:51] interesting there's a moment where the eminence um trying to again get uh the watcher to atone for

[00:08:57] what they call in his sins they he says you've let destiny down and i was wondering is that destiny with a

[00:09:02] capital d or just lowercase destiny do they actually work for destiny is that is that what the watchers

[00:09:08] do in the marvel cinematic universe that they work for destiny i don't think so but it's hard to tell

[00:09:13] when it's on such a cosmic scale as to whether all these cosmic beings and entities interact with each

[00:09:17] other or not for sure um and i mean i think what's actually really quite nice here is i quite like the

[00:09:24] the start where you have the eminence effectively saying you know to uh the watcher um that you have now

[00:09:32] become a disciple of the order of the watchers and and you know that he has very high hopes for uatu as

[00:09:41] he takes uh the oath to become a watcher that he doesn't quite know that he's taking but it's basically

[00:09:47] to watch over everyone i must become no one yeah that's his oath um and i will say i was definitely

[00:09:55] getting flashbacks to um the third season of the second season of game of thrones um where aria stark's

[00:10:01] journey is to become no one and i remember being totally confused weekly when they were trying to

[00:10:07] explain what no one is to aria stark to have to leave everything behind your name doesn't exist your

[00:10:12] personality doesn't exist exactly and then embrace this new situation so in all honesty game of thrones

[00:10:19] probably helped me understand what they were saying to uatu here absolutely yeah and you know it's just

[00:10:25] it kind of sets out the stall you know with the eminence saying you know you make no judgments it's just

[00:10:30] observations but you i like that in this sort of eons earlier you see in a sense a bit of the

[00:10:38] curiosity of uatu and the watcher he says but what's the point yes you know um and i like the fact that

[00:10:45] the eminence's response to him is that you will come to your own conclusions as you watch yep is

[00:10:53] ultimately what the watcher has come to and why he's done the things he's done exactly and he reflects

[00:11:01] that right back at the eminence um after sort of the huge epic uh battle that they all have so i kind

[00:11:11] of like that um a lot i also do like the transition where he says uh what if i fail you and he says

[00:11:18] you won't and then the eminence is there and you have failed me i will never fail you you have

[00:11:25] failed yeah really good really like that as well um yeah i just wish the that concept had just been

[00:11:33] massaged a little better and um and worked a little better into the episode that concept that

[00:11:37] they're saying to the brand new watcher that you go out there and you will learn over time

[00:11:43] why it is you watch and don't interfere i wish they'd massage that a little better into the episode

[00:11:48] because i felt like that had gotten lost by the time we got to the end of the episode it was almost

[00:11:52] like look everybody's just a bit tired now we've been punching each other in the face for so long

[00:11:56] sit down there and i'll tell you maybe there's another way to do things i kind of wish we'd have

[00:12:01] an acceptance from the eminence to say oh actually that's an that's a different perspective and a

[00:12:06] different way of looking at what we've been doing for these eons maybe it's a better way to look at

[00:12:10] it there didn't seem to be any of that it just kind of seemed like you're here with no powers you

[00:12:14] might as well just listen to to us you know yeah i mean it was a massive battle and in the end it was

[00:12:19] like all i kept hearing was bang bang and the words were kind of being lost yeah and i do think that

[00:12:27] you know all of a sudden despite all of this um sort of fighting effectively the the eminence

[00:12:36] the incarnate and the executioner looking to kill all these people and and then as soon as they

[00:12:42] have new powers and it's kind of like let there be peace okay now i listen now i'll listen to you

[00:12:50] and i like okay like it didn't feel quite like the revelation like you say if it just been put in it

[00:12:57] that different way maybe that would have given it but i mean i think we understood what was happening

[00:13:02] here yeah again because of it being 30 minutes it just was like punch punch punch punch punch yeah and

[00:13:11] yeah no i do accept now everything you said now that i can't um sort of use my cosmic powers yeah

[00:13:17] yeah yeah yeah but that that can be the case in a lot of different shows absolutely you know

[00:13:23] absolutely like again i like the concept of it i liked the the idea that they were trying to get across

[00:13:28] and i think it's a good wrap up to the story of the watcher getting to this point it's interesting

[00:13:33] a couple episodes ago and again we recorded all of our episodes before we watched the next episode

[00:13:37] but it's interesting a couple of episodes i was going um he's never named himself as as i was in

[00:13:42] this show he's a different watcher he hasn't got that name he's different to the one that's in the

[00:13:46] comic books that one's always been named i was you and here at the end of the season that was the

[00:13:50] big revelation that he is actually i was you that is his name he takes his name he gives it to

[00:13:54] himself and the rest of the team are all calling it a really powerful name so it wasn't his name

[00:13:59] beforehand i don't think he'd ever mentioned it in the show before but here we have him

[00:14:03] taking a name and becoming a being in this multiverse yes it had never been mentioned in

[00:14:09] the show yeah but he was who are to exactly yeah exactly yeah so just interesting so i was wrong

[00:14:14] about that but he hadn't mentioned it in the show before that's all that's all yeah and but i think

[00:14:19] on to our second point you know what if there was a small change because um again and this is more

[00:14:26] about us talking through the episode i think really for this one uh but the the small change here is

[00:14:33] that the four mortals or heroes in in peggy carter gahori storm and birdie all take the watcher

[00:14:43] oath yes and and as they're being pulverized by the combined power of the emmonds i did like that

[00:14:50] i thought maybe it's just me but i've i felt there was something quite comedic in them kind of

[00:14:55] straining against the the wall yeah whilst they're being blasted by the three other watchers absolutely

[00:15:01] and trying to recount what uh uatu was was saying to them in order so that they take the oath yeah and

[00:15:11] become a watcher and eventually he's just like just say you accept and then we'll move on

[00:15:16] yeah yeah really good i thought that was really good uh but ultimately they become

[00:15:21] um sort of white-eyed wonders really um and i i like them all emerging through the dust of the

[00:15:29] pulverized sort of massive of rock yeah and i really love their brand new um uniforms that they

[00:15:37] have because we have um captain carter with the with the gold and white now yeah gold white and

[00:15:41] blue uh instead of the traditional uh red white and blue that she has as captain britain or captain

[00:15:46] carter and that that's kind of cool and her brand new shield as well is awesome and it's very hard to

[00:15:52] talk about all the rest of the episode though because in the middle there that middle patch of

[00:15:56] about 10-15 minutes which does feel like there's a lot of punching but there were some really cool

[00:16:00] moments in it i loved um when captain carter's shield gets split in half and she uses each side of

[00:16:07] itself and then joins back together to to fight against uh the eminence or against uh one of the

[00:16:12] the other watchers i loved all the watches just kind of going into battle mode and with all their

[00:16:19] uh different you know their weapons one has a blade one has a mace the other uh the eminence has

[00:16:25] kind of like uh the almost um power gloves almost like yeah power gloves almost like thanos gloves

[00:16:32] exactly yeah and i was wondering why i was who didn't uh put on some kind of weapon yeah but he

[00:16:37] had armor so they all went sort of got body armor as well but yes i was who didn't have any kind of

[00:16:43] weapon although in fairness in animation it did help him stand out uh when he was fighting with the

[00:16:47] others um there was another i caught the moment i read right when uh when uh captain carter grabbed the

[00:16:53] head of one of the uh of one of the watchers and was just like through his mouth and was smashing his

[00:16:57] face into the ground on either side of herself like she was a hulk which was quite cool absolutely i

[00:17:02] loved uh kohori's stuff as well where she takes one of them across the the rings of the planet that

[00:17:08] they're fighting on so across all the the the rock that is sort of circling this planet yeah and i

[00:17:15] like the one where she sends the the watcher's kind of power beam back into him and he holds it in

[00:17:21] his mouth as though he's about to fire it back and she vanishes and becomes as big as he does yeah

[00:17:27] and behind him and knocks him uh knocks him out kind of thing yeah it was almost like as they watched

[00:17:33] the watchers and they as they observed the watchers let's say um using their powers they went well we

[00:17:39] have the same powers of them so we can now use the same thing it's like that's what kohori was was

[00:17:44] learning yeah but this is absolutely a huge cosmic battle between uh all the watchers and then these

[00:17:54] uh the powered up um kohori birdie peggy and storm uh so it's huge and and the other thing as well

[00:18:03] with that then i love that storm becomes says you know i controlled nature now i am nature i can i'm

[00:18:13] you know this is mother nature here as she um sort of does this cosmic tornado that pulls in

[00:18:22] the incarnate and the executioner yeah and brings them together and they eventually have the three of

[00:18:28] them pinned down and they're all uh firing their watcher powers onto them and i like the struggle of the

[00:18:37] eminence as well where peggy's telling the three of them to to yield and

[00:18:43] and surrender effectively yeah and uh he's like never different forms of straining never as they're

[00:18:50] being pinned down yeah but oatu kind of stands in here to say no wait because actually this

[00:19:01] the use of violence i guess is very rare for for the watchers and and it's like i don't want you know

[00:19:08] he doesn't want it to go down like that but it gives them enough breathing room um and i do like

[00:19:14] the fact um that he says um you know you taught me well and he just goes i didn't teach you everything

[00:19:24] can they kind of shoot up and you know three become one as they spin and this this threat that they've

[00:19:33] become is not only to kill the four of them and uatu but that they will disintegrate and wipe out and

[00:19:41] erase every version of them uh in each of the universes of the multiverse and what they did

[00:19:50] every person they've interacted with so there will be no memory of them this is all extinction

[00:19:55] yeah uh at a multiverse level yeah and uh again it's another like i loved how it was portrayed with the

[00:20:03] almost like the the the watcher winds coming down from this spit these spinning uh watchers

[00:20:11] and you kind of see the different versions of them being knocked out of them yeah and so you

[00:20:19] pause moment it was like you saw kohori in uh captain america outfit um which was great absolutely

[00:20:26] see her as an x-man as well you see uh birdie looking much more like herod the duck's daughter

[00:20:31] than uh than a mix of herod and darcy which i thought was really interesting loads of different

[00:20:36] versions of captain carter you see her as saber tooth you see her in loads of different ways definitely

[00:20:40] go back pause each of those are very cool yeah and then and and ultimately then that sort of i guess

[00:20:47] that version starts to sort of disintegrate away so you see peggy's hand going and again call calling

[00:20:55] back to the previous episode about losing her friends again that's the resolve within her yeah is that

[00:21:04] you know she's in a way not always been it's not the only defining aspect of peggy carter but it is

[00:21:14] the lost love with um with captain america at least in the mcu and you you've had that sort of repeated

[00:21:23] as well through the multiverse where she never is able to have that relationship with um steve rogers

[00:21:32] and and it's just harks back to the conversation with storm about losing what she's lost exactly and not

[00:21:41] losing anyone anymore yeah and and is willing to pay that ultimate sacrifice as she goes within herself to

[00:21:51] use the watcher power to reverse that and destroy and the the three spinning watchers or at least

[00:22:01] to move them into steve and strange universe i love the fact that you see all the

[00:22:09] other versions of them that have been knocked out of them sort of returning to them very quickly

[00:22:13] yeah and they ultimately go into the steven strange universe and that's where they were trying to get

[00:22:19] to before the big battle yeah but ultimately ultron wasn't able to hold them off for as long and i

[00:22:26] kind of quite liked i know we're moving back a bit here but i liked how the eminents just walked

[00:22:31] through the power blast of ultron and basically took his head off yeah and plucked his head off

[00:22:38] exactly killed him yeah so almost the way the thanos pulled the infinity stone from uh from vision

[00:22:44] exactly but the plan was to get to and the steven strange universe where he had ultimate absolute

[00:22:52] control over what happened there because it was him yeah his essence is in every atom in this universe

[00:23:00] because he he recreated it from the universe that he lost yeah like i kind of loved that idea and

[00:23:04] because he was such a central character in season one and season two it's nice to end here in the

[00:23:10] the universe of of steven strange and of course i love that they had the touch of having his theme

[00:23:15] tune playing as you see uh the stars light up in the shape of of steven strange yeah exactly i thought

[00:23:21] that was a lovely little touch yeah good it was really cool yeah really enjoyed that yeah and but i

[00:23:26] think we can go into our third and final point what if the universe was changed forever yeah and because

[00:23:32] what would be so different well here we have you know the watchers the eminence the incarnate

[00:23:39] um the executioner as well as who are to the watcher uh that they no longer have their powers

[00:23:47] yeah to continue this battle yeah to continue this battle and you see the eminence wanting to yeah um but

[00:23:55] can't and doesn't um and again i think to that point where he then decides to listen to uatu and what he

[00:24:07] has learned in that callback to the when he started being a watcher you know after all those eons of

[00:24:14] watching yeah um that you know he he says to the eminence everyone is someone um and that there are

[00:24:21] lessons in every corner uh of the multiverse and i hope that i can share everything that i have learned

[00:24:30] with you and the others like you have taught and given me knowledge and he you know basically

[00:24:37] it's about hearing and listening but with watching and seeing it's not just watching and observing yeah

[00:24:45] um detached but it's about being able to see the meaning in things and being able to understand that

[00:24:52] difference uh between what is there and what it means yeah be there yeah i thought that was kind of

[00:25:01] quite nice i like how it just took back to the start and again mirrored with the handshake of

[00:25:08] reconciliation at the end yeah exactly exactly they've finally gotten through this idea that

[00:25:13] the watchers can be involved and the watchers can observe and also intervene when things uh when when

[00:25:20] you need to intervene uh one of the things i did love about the opening of the episode actually which we

[00:25:24] which we didn't mention is just um when when they're putting the charges forth for uh for oasoo and the

[00:25:32] eminence is saying to him um you saved reevee williams and the watcher goes but that was just one

[00:25:37] instance in eons of watching and then he goes how about quite a quite one fan uh reed richards nick

[00:25:43] fury madison king and of course the biggest one captain carter you know you've kept all of them

[00:25:48] around and you kept interfering and saving all of those people i just love that that was you know the

[00:25:53] watcher kind of going well actually maybe i have interviewed more than i thought i did you know

[00:25:57] i loved that madison was in was mentioned absolutely yes madison king from um from uh she-hulk of course

[00:26:05] and that the eminence is like with two n's and a y you know but not what you think yeah exactly

[00:26:12] yeah that was that was kind of cool to have that but another big one of course is reed richards you

[00:26:16] know we didn't see reed richards in the show at all um in any of the three seasons of of what if

[00:26:22] but here he is mentioned another character coming into the mcu uh next year you you do wonder because

[00:26:28] of how long it takes to do these animated shows and the fact that they're trying to take um inspiration

[00:26:33] from the mc movies and tv shows that have been released are there characters and are there plot

[00:26:38] lines are there even just moments from episodes that they've had to edit out or cut out as these

[00:26:43] uh release dates have changed for for the movies was there an episode that had reed richards featured

[00:26:48] in it because they knew fantastic four was coming out in a few years time uh when they originally

[00:26:53] wrote the episode and now that fantastic four hasn't come out uh they had to pull that episode or pull

[00:26:59] that moment you know you just wonder i think it's more that because of the way madison has been handled

[00:27:04] i think it's more that they've got their stories that they're going to tell yeah but they can add in

[00:27:11] another name yeah you know it's name dropping effectively yeah of course and to animate that

[00:27:17] i think changing the animation yeah would become a much bigger and a more costly uh process than saying

[00:27:25] you know if we just extend this scene so it in the animation i'm guessing but i don't know i i just feel

[00:27:31] because reed richards is known as one of the biggest founders of the of the modern uh marvel comics

[00:27:37] universe it's just such a big name job to have his name made yeah but the other thing that's obviously

[00:27:43] massively changed about this universe captain carter uh has been a character that has been with

[00:27:49] the show since the first ever episode uh very connected to the watcher and this sacrifice that

[00:27:54] she makes at the end of of this final episode in the finale um puts the end to her story really

[00:28:01] um yeah you know this is the same captain carter that we've seen since the beginning of the show

[00:28:06] uh traveling through the multiverse with the help of the watcher to save different uh different things

[00:28:11] setting up the team to go around through the multiverse and continuing that uh mission that

[00:28:15] she was on here at the end i think it was really interesting when you hear the watcher say in the

[00:28:19] past i've watched on but now ever since peggy sacrificed herself i can feel her watching on so

[00:28:25] she's almost now become a different type of watcher watching on yeah he says like for the first time i

[00:28:30] feel as though i'm being observed and watched um because there is the talk of well is there another plane

[00:28:35] like yes i was gonna talk about that yeah yeah yeah that's quite that's quite an interesting one so

[00:28:41] in the marvel universe this idea of having watchers looking on over everything that goes on throughout

[00:28:47] uh throughout all of the multiverses all the stories that are told in the comic books

[00:28:51] that's an established idea in an established concept they've always found it really difficult

[00:28:57] to talk about the afterlife in comic books because well firstly in comic books if someone dies they come

[00:29:03] back pretty often in comic books but because they've also brought in uh characters from every

[00:29:09] single religion uh have have appeared in comic books as characters just look at all the as guardian

[00:29:14] as guardians and the greek gods that are in there as characters so pondering the question of what comes

[00:29:20] after what is the afterlife for uh for them i love that it is uh left up and open for interpretation

[00:29:27] because they definitely don't want to put uh i don't know if it stamped uh that one and say this is what

[00:29:32] the belief is of the marvel cinematic universe and so they haven't seen that they can only look over

[00:29:37] the look over the multiverse as it stands they also do as well because they have mephisto which is

[00:29:43] effectively the death yeah but they but again they have thor you know they have exactly you know that

[00:29:47] there's there's different versions of every deity uh in the marvel universe because they take

[00:29:51] creative uh license with every story that's been out there so that they can create comics for

[00:29:56] 70 years so um they don't put a stamp on it even though they did have captain america saying there's

[00:30:01] only one god uh you know up there yeah that's his belief uh but everybody had their own beliefs in the

[00:30:06] marvel universe so they don't have uh what he was saying a definitive answer of what happens after we die

[00:30:12] so exactly yeah excellent stuff um derek any notes from this episode any final notes the only note for me

[00:30:20] that i'd written down was um how interesting those final uh animations were at the end of the final um

[00:30:27] concept art of all of those characters we could see if what if became a continuing show that went on for

[00:30:32] multiple seasons where it started to get stranger and stranger as it went into even more variation you

[00:30:38] know this season as we i think in our scoring and then we haven't scored this episode but i think in

[00:30:42] our scoring the highest rated episode that we had was 1872 the shang chi episode um which is

[00:30:48] something that stands completely apart from everything else it doesn't take a jumping off

[00:30:52] point from any other story so if they'd been allowed to do more of that in future seasons of

[00:30:57] what if that would have been so interesting and it felt like those uh those concept art designs at the

[00:31:01] end of the episode uh felt like something that isn't massively part of the universe there were

[00:31:06] there were character characters in there that we haven't seen at all yeah in the uh in the what

[00:31:10] series or in the mcu at all yet so uh so that was just my note i had it written down but we've

[00:31:15] talked about a lot of those uh that we saw in there excellent stuff uh yeah i've got no notes so

[00:31:20] derek do you defend episode eight what if i defend this as a finale for the show for for what if i

[00:31:26] kind of feel like the animators got their chance to do a really great animated final episode you know

[00:31:32] that i'd say they had a lot of fun designing the battles that were there between the characters

[00:31:36] and they looked amazing it looked like the best looking episode so far i just feel like a little

[00:31:42] bit on the writing uh should have been massaged a little bit more about the watcher learning what

[00:31:47] the true purpose is and encouraging the rest of the order of watchers that this is actually the way

[00:31:53] we should regard the galaxy regard the multiverse is by protecting and helping people not just watching

[00:31:59] over and watching their suffering and pain and i felt like that's that should have come across a

[00:32:04] little bit better not just oh i don't have any powers i can't fight you uh so now i'll listen to

[00:32:09] what your argument is um i thought that was a little odd as an ending for the episode but it is the

[00:32:14] ending of the episode it is the ending of the series it is the moment that yeah that uatu does convince

[00:32:18] them all that this is the way we should be uh going in the future yeah i mean it almost feels like um

[00:32:25] you know these two final episodes to me are one i think they could have just drawn a bit more

[00:32:33] of um those types of conversations and spread them across the two you know so and it culminating here

[00:32:41] yeah and rather than it kind of all being focused in this final one yeah and i'll be honest it could

[00:32:46] have been a 40 minute episode and cut out a lot of that fighting in the middle of the episode uh but

[00:32:51] again i do think that gave the animators who worked so hard in the show for three years that gave them

[00:32:54] an opportunity to absolutely use their animation muscles to do something really cool looking and it was

[00:32:59] yeah absolutely but equally for me i'd prefer that than you know kind of the previous episode with

[00:33:06] three ways to get to the observational plane you know just kind of um like no but that could have

[00:33:13] just happened quicker right yeah or something do you know but as i say i think given that ultimately

[00:33:19] you've got over an hour worth of time here yeah you could have peppered in more of that conversation

[00:33:26] between the watcher and the eminence and the others um with peggy as a host you know in episode seven

[00:33:36] and pulling into episode eight so that it it felt like there'd be more consideration of this because

[00:33:43] as you say it was um and i did feel like this oh well we're kind of mortal or we're depowered yeah um

[00:33:51] and i was just thinking well if if you're such an acolyte for this why don't you just do normal

[00:33:57] fisticuffs do you know what i mean like it could have punched him well absolutely didn't have to use

[00:34:04] like power yeah could have just punched him or choked him yeah or use one of the rocks on his head i mean

[00:34:10] there's a way to like destroy his heretical um sort of views on life well yes yeah but it it just um

[00:34:19] it seemed a little odd when it got to fighting and they just kept fighting and fighting and fighting

[00:34:23] until the powers were gone um they just didn't listen at all like i know they're called the watchers

[00:34:27] not the listeners of course so maybe that's what the that's what the underlying joke of it all is

[00:34:32] no no we just look on we don't we don't ever listen to what anybody has to say maybe that's it but

[00:34:37] i did like it though overall for those reasons that because the animation was was particularly

[00:34:41] brilliant epic in the episode i thought that was that was cool but um it's not just visuals

[00:34:46] sometimes when you're closing out a show i'd like to have a little bit more uh of that so it's it's

[00:34:51] high up uh you know it's higher than some of the other episodes this season certainly um but i

[00:34:56] definitely would defend it um as as the finale of the season how about yourself john do you defend

[00:35:00] the finale of uh what if yeah i do defend this episode of what if i would give this three and a

[00:35:06] half cosmic sacrifices out of five i think you know maybe pushing into four uh roughly um with both

[00:35:15] i like the structure of the opening of it seeing the eminence and uh the watcher you know as he

[00:35:24] starts his journey as a watcher and being sort of inducted into the order of the watchers and it

[00:35:30] it finishing on the watcher effectively you know calling out what the eminence had said to him to do

[00:35:37] when questioning the point of just observing and not interfering i thought that was really nice i

[00:35:44] thought the battle scenes were just epic they were great and i really like the kind of circle the dots

[00:35:51] look of their power um i think it's a real nice touch it's really distinctive it's like jack kirby's

[00:35:58] um yeah artwork and yeah it's really good and um you know i thought all that was great um

[00:36:06] as i say i think it could just with these two last episodes i think it could have possibly just

[00:36:13] the arc of it considered more integrated a bit over those two episodes yeah um so yeah three and a

[00:36:21] half cosmic sacrifices out of five for me maybe pushing into four four yes very good very good

[00:36:27] uh thanks so much uh for joining us for our podcast about what if we got some multiversal

[00:36:32] messages from our fellow defenders uh with their thoughts on the final episode as well absolutely

[00:36:38] uh first up uh an email from coffee and vodka who says greetings fellow final frontier defenders

[00:36:44] didn't have to dig too far down to mine irony out of this one with a watcher slugger palooza

[00:36:51] followed by a hail mary sacrifice and student to master teachable moment this show ender was as

[00:36:57] sparse as it was pure greased linearity the beef jerky version of a meaty episode probably good but

[00:37:05] went down too fast to tell at least the series was firmly capped by captain carter i'll take what i

[00:37:12] can get four ish recycled shields grinding oaths and watchers in a strange land out of five

[00:37:20] peace and take care coffee and vodka uh thanks so much coffee and vodka yeah i mean as i say i think

[00:37:25] you can view it as maybe a slugger palooza too far yeah um and they could have been a bit um a bit more

[00:37:34] meat on that uh beefy meal um but uh interestingly as you say uh the linearity of it given

[00:37:46] what we're been discussing since you know but but i guess it's more about space and time this um

[00:37:54] but i can get that but i i get what you're saying

[00:37:58] um to be honest and again as i say maybe a little

[00:38:03] interesting that a few of the other sort of team ups that we'd seen this season weren't around

[00:38:10] but we kind of mentioned that in the last episode as well yeah yeah but wouldn't it be cool if we

[00:38:14] had something like as a member of the team we had america chavez in there and they as they battle with

[00:38:20] the watchers they go through loads of other multiverse uh multiverses that we haven't seen

[00:38:24] or universes that we haven't seen in the multiverse like in you do feel america chavez

[00:38:28] would have been ideal for this story and it's interesting that she hasn't been used yeah yeah i think

[00:38:35] i think again that's partly to do with when she appeared in multiverse of madness that's only a

[00:38:39] couple of years ago now um at this stage so potentially the plan had already been in place

[00:38:44] for all these characters in uh in what if so yeah before the movie released so good stuff thanks

[00:38:49] coffee and vodka over on facebook more versus multiversal messages first up heather wallace says

[00:38:56] three seasons ago what if started with peggy becoming a hero and now it ends with her becoming

[00:39:00] so much more i've enjoyed all three seasons so much peggy was always at the heart for me

[00:39:05] and this was a fitting tribute i'd still really really like to see how peggy quixote storm and birdie

[00:39:11] the duck came together absolutely but i guess i can just imagine how it came to be all the what if

[00:39:16] scenarios possible and on a less reflective note i loved that madison got name checked

[00:39:20] how do i get to the multiverse with madison and wongers drinking bottomless gnts excellent stuff

[00:39:27] heather totally agree i really like the fact that madison got name checked as well um i i really want

[00:39:34] to see madison again with wong and i'm hoping that the next phase of the mcu will provide

[00:39:40] for that yeah and for sure i'd love to see shield back yeah see wong and i'd love to see madison

[00:39:46] back definitely definitely uh and yeah i totally agree i'd love to see how this team came together

[00:39:51] yeah really would be cool yeah yeah i feel like that would be great if the christmas episode had

[00:39:57] opened with um darcy in hospital going oh wow i've got this egg now and then it just had cut to a

[00:40:04] grown-up birdie and a different episode had taken place that might have been the way to do it yeah

[00:40:07] well for me anyway excellent thanks heather thanks heather also on facebook philippe says

[00:40:14] i really enjoyed the season except the first episode not because the premise was flawed but i

[00:40:20] didn't like its execution overall it was a fantastic season of a great show i loved how they took the

[00:40:27] bigger risks as the seasons progressed and created more intriguing worlds for us to explore as heather

[00:40:32] mentioned i would have loved to see more about how the final team came together how storm became

[00:40:38] to form and birdie's growth but that didn't negatively impact my overall experience sad to see it end but

[00:40:47] grateful for everything we got to experience excellent philippe uh yeah totally agree i am so glad

[00:40:53] that what if exists me too yeah because what if it didn't well exactly exactly yeah onto the question

[00:41:00] what if we didn't have the show i know i've really enjoyed what if overall i think it's been a really

[00:41:04] interesting experiment for marvel animation as well something very different from what we've seen

[00:41:08] from them in the past there's some very adult episodes in there uh episodes just that dealt with

[00:41:13] ideas that they haven't been able to put on screen in the mcu and probably will never be able to put on

[00:41:18] screen in the mcu so i like that they've been given the latitude to do that with uh the animated show

[00:41:23] here with uh what if hopefully we get something like it in the future uh what the or what next maybe

[00:41:30] absolutely thanks for the great stuff thanks for that philippe we also got a message in from paul

[00:41:35] chien chi lee who says this episode confused me i don't remember if breakdowns of previous seasons

[00:41:39] explained anything and i've never read any comics with the watcher or this watcher so my experience with

[00:41:45] the watchers outside of the what if show is in the end credit sequence from i actually forgot which

[00:41:50] movie it was where stanley is explaining how to be part of every mcu movie to a group of watchers

[00:41:54] this means that all the watcher lore in the opening flashback is completely new to me and i have

[00:41:58] questions i also agree with heather wallace and philippe philippe that having the peggie storm

[00:42:04] chiordi birdie team up is great and it would have been nice to see how they all mess we did get more of

[00:42:09] their dynamic in episode 7 which is something but episode 8 suffers from one of the classic criticisms

[00:42:14] of mcu movies the over reliance on the act 3 fight fight fight they were very cool fights but

[00:42:20] it's the same problem with many superheroes movies marvel not accepting if you have virtually

[00:42:25] indestructible beings fighting each other it's hard to get connected to the stakes deadpool and

[00:42:29] wolverine had got a good solution for this the peggie twist of pulling them all into the strange

[00:42:34] supreme universe was a great plot device and depowered our antagonist to the point where actual

[00:42:38] talking and convincing could take place but it was a bit of a letdown for me particularly because it

[00:42:43] was the literal end of the season and series i should note that peggy storm chihuly birdie team

[00:42:49] up is the second one in marvel this year after agatha and her coven there's also the odd parallel of

[00:42:54] having a male be a part of each team and having that male be the reason the team forms disney as a

[00:42:59] whole gave us a third grouping of women in the acolytes and i'm not even going to talk about mad and web

[00:43:04] 3.5 stars for this episode uh one bonus note for me from season three episode one i could swear they

[00:43:10] use the six million dollar man bionic woman sound effect of bionic movement and one of the punches

[00:43:15] from mighty avenger against the apex this was confirmed when i started watching reactions to

[00:43:19] the show on youtube and heard it again so there you go great stuff paul um and thanks for the old bonus

[00:43:25] note around episode one yeah i'll need to uh watch it again i mentioned it too yeah i actually thought

[00:43:30] when i when i heard at first that it was the jumping sound of uh of uh hulk when he used to

[00:43:35] oh it was that one yeah yeah but actually the second time i watched it i remembered that that's actually

[00:43:40] the six million dollar man uh noise uh probably because i haven't watched those shows uh for

[00:43:44] over 30 years gosh making me sound old there but yes you're right it is that sound definitely

[00:43:51] and as for yeah there isn't a huge amount of lore in the mcu about uh about the watchers just what

[00:43:58] we've seen here in what if and that's just coming from the voice of the watcher yeah that scene you're

[00:44:02] thinking of is the scene at the end of guardians of the galaxy volume two um it is just a joke scene

[00:44:07] where stanley is telling the watchers that he's basically one of them yeah and they all walk away

[00:44:11] and leave him behind yeah the one comic series i think which is really interesting uh that involves

[00:44:16] the watcher but it also involves nick fury is that someone has killed the watcher that's right

[00:44:21] has murdered him and nick fury is on the case and that's a nice uh that's a nice uh series of comics

[00:44:28] to get um a bit of lore and some background around the watcher absolutely series is called original sin

[00:44:36] yeah it's really good uh i think it's the last ever nick fury senior story in the marvel universe

[00:44:42] he has returned for for the ultimate universe though thankfully absolutely i'm not gonna cry anymore

[00:44:46] don't cry don't cry excellent stuff thanks paul uh thanks so much for the feedback uh really good

[00:44:53] uh as always uh lindsey lawis uh says bit of a bittersweet ending but what an epic way to go

[00:45:01] found myself very compelled particularly by the watcher uatu's arc for personal reasons that i'll

[00:45:08] spare you all from my ramblings about i agree with the others that seeing how this team came together

[00:45:14] would have been nice but i also don't mind its media in res nature either they managed to show the

[00:45:20] team dynamic pretty well i must give a special shout out to star lord t'challa making a brief cameo in

[00:45:26] the team photo excellent spot lindsey yes i remember that now that i i read your your feedback

[00:45:32] and really miss t'challa and chadwick boseman really hope to get another fun marvel animation project

[00:45:39] again or in any other projects that can allow any of these characters to continue their stories

[00:45:45] what if will be missed great coverage as always fellow defenders cheers uh great stuff lindsey and

[00:45:52] really pleased you enjoyed the what if series and me too um totally um as i say what if this didn't

[00:46:00] exist uh ponder that thought because i think it's given us some really really good stuff um

[00:46:07] in terms of you know with peggy carter i think with stephen strange you know um i think some

[00:46:13] like one-offs as well like the 1872 one like the 1602 you know something really different yeah um

[00:46:21] so yeah totally agree uh with that and yes uh miss old t'challa as well uh but hopefully we'll have a

[00:46:30] new outing of the new black panther soon yeah apparently uh black panther 3 is being uh is in production

[00:46:37] at the moment um in the writing room um not in not in the filming yet so it'll be a while away

[00:46:41] uh but yes apparently the third black panther movie is uh is in development that's that's the way you

[00:46:47] say it uh so hopefully we'll see that but yes uh absolutely miss chadwick boseman on screen was

[00:46:52] such a great presence in marvel movies and other movies as well he's always been a great actor and one

[00:46:57] final piece of feedback in from dr bob phillips who says after the echoes of vick and bob

[00:47:01] ranu wahoo died out of my mind it was okay here in the watcher's name i thought this was

[00:47:08] a neat rap on the peggy storyline i miss seeing agatha and red brought into the story again but

[00:47:13] have to keep reminding myself that what if was all about splintered stories that happened to have some

[00:47:18] splinters matching up satisfying overall but star stories were the unconnected 1872 and agatha

[00:47:24] thanks dr bob i think i totally agree with that 1872 um was definitely one of my favorites of the

[00:47:30] season yeah that agatha episode but king goat was really good yep no i'm the same um have i think

[00:47:35] they were absolutely uh the star stories and i think followed really much by the the buddy

[00:47:41] the buddy road trip movie of red guardian and winter soldier and really enjoyed that as well yeah thanks

[00:47:48] dr bob yeah thanks so much dr bob uh great stuff thanks again to everybody for all your feedback for

[00:47:53] our season three our final season it's always been great to hear your points of view uh it's expanded

[00:47:59] on our own thoughts about the episodes many times absolutely absolutely it's great to have you uh

[00:48:04] fellow defenders uh listening in to our coverage of what if thanks to everyone who has sent in their

[00:48:11] their feedback it's great to get your thoughts observations different perspectives you name it

[00:48:17] it's great stuff and it's also just for us to say uh thank you so much for joining us for this third

[00:48:24] and final season of what if yeah we'll absolutely be back with a bang in the new year in 2025 with lots

[00:48:32] more marvel podcasts including um in the very near future captain america brave new world uh in february

[00:48:41] yep and then the return of daredevil in mark so exciting yeah so lots of stuff there in the first uh

[00:48:50] quarter of next year yeah lots more mcu stuff uh not terrible marvel like uh madam web and um and

[00:48:59] craven and uh the terrible uh sony version of uh of what marvel do which is just i feel like it's just

[00:49:07] been damaging the brand of marvel uh even though marvel stepped back from putting movies out um because

[00:49:12] sony's been putting out these terrible movies it's it's hitting marvel harder i feel so they need to get

[00:49:17] some good stuff out there like daredevil like captain america brave new world which i'm really looking

[00:49:21] forward to and then we got fantastic four coming later in the year and ironheart finally coming

[00:49:26] out yeah absolutely cool great stuff yeah thanks so much for joining us we will talk to you again in

[00:49:31] 2025 yes absolutely fellow defenders i think my uh sign off takes on a different meaning uh with

[00:49:39] until next time keep watching keep listening and keep defending yes interfere defend exactly help the

[00:49:49] people yes yeah help the people yes yes bye see you now bye