[00:00:00] This is the Defenders Podcast on TV Podcast Industries. We're talking about Season 3 of What If, Episode 5, What If the Emergence Destroyed the Earth?

[00:00:09] Riri Williams always thinks she can build her way out of her problems. And with this latest invention, you wouldn't blame her for believing she can. More than a suit of armor, it's a fusion of human and machine, elevating her to new levels of consciousness no living person has ever known.

[00:00:30] Riri Williams, You'll be a human Synthozoid. There's no telling how that power will change you, or if you can ever turn back.

[00:00:37] Riri Williams, Growing up I lost a lot. And then the world ended and I lost everyone else. If this will help me take the fight to Beck, I have to do it. Because this fight is all I have left.

[00:01:11] Riri Williams, Welcome back fellow Defenders to TV Podcast Industries. We're on to the fifth episode of the third and final season of What If this time with What If the Emergence Destroyed the Earth? I'm one of your host Derek.

[00:01:24] Derek ONeill

[00:01:24] Hello there, fellow Defenders. I am your other host, John. Welcome to the podcast.

[00:01:29] I knew this one was going to be a good one, especially after the low point of the season that was the Howard the Duck episode.

[00:01:36] I'm delighted to say they are very much back on form with this episode.

[00:01:40] Yeah, really like this episode as well.

[00:01:42] I kind of was thinking back to the Howard the Duck episode.

[00:01:46] I think the fact Chris wasn't there, he may have offered a slightly different perspective.

[00:01:51] So I do wonder whether we were our own worst enemies sort of pulling the episode down.

[00:01:58] But nonetheless, just not my cup of tea or coffee or gin and tonic, I guess.

[00:02:05] But yeah, really enjoyed this episode of What If?

[00:02:10] And a kind of interesting little sub element of these next two episodes threaded in under the story, which is around the Watchers themselves.

[00:02:22] Yeah, yeah, it's going to be really interesting to dig deep into that one.

[00:02:25] And once again, as we see throughout this season, we're seeing many more characters that we haven't seen in the big screen in quite a long time.

[00:02:33] So kind of cool to have some light shine on those types of characters as well.

[00:02:37] Definitely.

[00:02:38] I'm really good to have Riri Williams here as kind of the focal point of this episode.

[00:02:44] So just great to get her, you know, get this character sort of a bit more airtime in the Marvel MCU, really.

[00:02:57] And especially since Wakanda Forever.

[00:03:00] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:03:01] And her show, Ironheart, was supposed to be out in 2024.

[00:03:04] So it was supposed to be out ahead of this episode of What If?

[00:03:06] So this would have been a return to Riri Williams, but actually it turns out this is the first time we're seeing her since Wakanda Forever.

[00:03:13] Yeah.

[00:03:13] But it was good to have her front and center for the episode.

[00:03:17] Just a reminder, if you haven't subscribed to the podcast yet, make sure you pop on over to our website at tvpodcastindustries.com.

[00:03:22] You can subscribe to the podcast and any mysterious podcast player in the multiverse over there.

[00:03:27] And we do want to hear your thoughts on the rest of the episodes of What If?

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[00:03:40] So far.

[00:03:41] Indeed.

[00:03:42] Maybe, fellow defenders, you can subscribe through any Mysterio podcast catcher of your choice.

[00:03:48] Yes, you could.

[00:03:49] You could.

[00:03:50] Given this episode.

[00:03:51] Absolutely.

[00:03:53] Derek, but let us get into episode five of What If?

[00:03:58] What are some of the episode details?

[00:04:00] Well, executive producers, of course, are Matthew Chauncey, Brian Andrews and Brad Winderbaum with Kevin Feige.

[00:04:05] The head writer for the series is Matthew Chauncey.

[00:04:08] Once again, the story in this episode was written by Brian Andrews, Matthew Chauncey and Ryan Little with the teleplay written by Matthew Chauncey and Ryan Little and the episode directed once again by Stephen Frog.

[00:04:16] So why I'm saying once again is they all did exactly the same roles for the Hair of the Duck episode.

[00:04:22] No, absolutely.

[00:04:23] Interesting.

[00:04:24] It's a real core of writers here.

[00:04:27] And yeah, I mean, they're doing a good job, you know, but it's amazing how you can, as an individual, sort of watching these shows or any show, just to have that difference in the output of, in effect, the same group of people.

[00:04:45] Exactly.

[00:04:45] It's really weird. And it's probably just down to the character as much as anything else.

[00:04:50] Or maybe they just can't write comedy. Maybe that's all it is.

[00:04:53] Maybe.

[00:04:54] But John, do you want to tell us what they gave us with your synopsis for this episode of What If? What If 305? What If the Emergence destroyed the Earth?

[00:05:03] Sure.

[00:05:04] After the Earth was split apart by the Emergence, Quentin Beck overtook Stark Industries, creating an army of drones called the Iron Federation to subjugate the survivors.

[00:05:14] In the present, Riri Williams is recruited by Wong, Okoye, Valkyrie, and Yin Nan to join their alliance.

[00:05:22] After defeating Beck's lieutenant, Vision, Williams uses Vision's components to become a human-synthozoid hybrid.

[00:05:28] While the alliance holds off the Federation, she infiltrates Beck's base to destroy the nanites powering his illusion.

[00:05:35] However, her suit fails and she loses the ability to see through Beck's illusions and is lured into a prison cell,

[00:05:42] where Beck explains that he uploaded the nanites into himself, meaning he can control illusions with his mind.

[00:05:49] But the nanites are killing him, so he intends to merge with Vision to live longer.

[00:05:55] Williams breaks free, only to learn that her comrades are dead and everything since Vision's defeat has been an illusion.

[00:06:02] The Watcher intervenes by encouraging Williams to fight back, so she siphons the nanites off Beck's body, killing him and destroying the Federation.

[00:06:11] Williams then projects the Avengers logo into the sky to give the survivors hope.

[00:06:16] Elsewhere, three of the Watchers are displeased by the Watcher's continued interference.

[00:06:23] Mm.

[00:06:24] Yes.

[00:06:25] Yeah, we do see a bit of interference from the Watcher here to make sure that Riri Williams' plan succeeds.

[00:06:31] Yeah.

[00:06:32] Yeah, interesting as well, because the other three are the Eminence, the Incarnate, and the Executioner.

[00:06:40] That's right.

[00:06:41] So, nice sort of titles there.

[00:06:44] Absolutely.

[00:06:45] For sure.

[00:06:46] Yeah, because we've never actually heard the Watcher's name in the show.

[00:06:50] He's not Uatu, he's the one in the comic books that is the one that looks over all of the adventures and sets up all the adventures in the What If comic books.

[00:06:59] He's a different Watcher, just called the Watcher that we see here.

[00:07:02] Yeah.

[00:07:03] Absolutely.

[00:07:04] So, yeah, interesting.

[00:07:05] And, of course, I think the Eminence is voiced by Jason Isaac.

[00:07:08] That's right.

[00:07:08] So, if you've seen his name cropping up throughout this season of What If?

[00:07:14] That is because he is the Eminent.

[00:07:16] Yeah.

[00:07:18] Your Eminence.

[00:07:18] I would guess by that title he's the leader of this group.

[00:07:21] Yes, I think so.

[00:07:22] And given that it's Jason Isaacs, it's probably the major role.

[00:07:24] It sounds like it for sure.

[00:07:26] So, let's get into our top three about this episode, as we said before, on What If?

[00:07:31] We do a different type of top three.

[00:07:33] Our first What If is What If we'd seen this before?

[00:07:36] So, what are the Marvel Cinematic Universe's movies that the premise of this is taken from?

[00:07:42] Now, really, the big one, of course, is The Eternals with the emergence of Tiamat.

[00:07:49] In this case, the emergence is happening much earlier and it explodes the world.

[00:07:54] But that's the kind of kickoff point.

[00:07:55] Tiamat the Celestial in The Eternals was still within the Earth's core for a much longer period of time.

[00:08:02] So, that's where the big kickoff is, right?

[00:08:04] Yeah, that's the main movie for this episode is the emergence of the Celestials as it's portrayed in The Eternals and what they do.

[00:08:17] And this is where we have seen the emergence and Tiamat in particular before.

[00:08:22] Although we don't see him in this episode, as you say.

[00:08:25] We just see the after effects of the emergence on planet Earth.

[00:08:30] And I'm surprised to see that there are still survivors, actually.

[00:08:33] I find that kind of interesting.

[00:08:36] I like the thought that you could actually survive a world-destroying event where it's effectively the gravity is kind of keeping it, the split elements of the Earth together.

[00:08:48] And I guess you've survived that shake-up.

[00:08:53] Yeah.

[00:08:54] I don't really know how that works.

[00:08:55] I say shake-up.

[00:08:55] I mean sort of earth-shattering event.

[00:08:58] Yeah.

[00:08:58] Like it's in the title of the episode, the Earth is destroyed.

[00:09:02] And so, how they're staying alive I don't really know.

[00:09:04] But I do love the visual of all the pieces of Earth, of the Earth that's gone now or floating past them.

[00:09:12] Yeah, definitely.

[00:09:13] That's quite interesting.

[00:09:14] Yeah, it is quite interesting.

[00:09:15] Yeah.

[00:09:15] But there isn't really a mention of why they're all still able to breathe and live.

[00:09:20] Yeah, how the atmosphere has been kept on Earth.

[00:09:25] But maybe there's enough gravity, you know, for the atmosphere to have been retained.

[00:09:32] But I don't think so.

[00:09:32] If you are a nuclear physicist or if you're someone that would know more about that, a scientist that would know more about that, let us know.

[00:09:38] I think they would just say it was impossible.

[00:09:40] Yeah.

[00:09:40] I think we're probably just saying this is a comic book show.

[00:09:43] Exactly.

[00:09:43] You have to just go with this.

[00:09:44] It was cool.

[00:09:45] I thought it was a cool visual.

[00:09:46] I like that kind of notion of that kind of fragmented planet but still being functional and livable.

[00:09:53] So that was kind of quite cool.

[00:09:55] The other movie we've seen where we've seen this before is Spider-Man Far From Home with the illusion powers of Quentin Beck, a.k.a. Mysterio.

[00:10:08] Yes.

[00:10:08] And so that's quite good as well because, you know, this is kind of an evolved state of his illusion making.

[00:10:18] Rather than with drones, it's kind of gone down to the micro or nano level with the nanites.

[00:10:24] Exactly.

[00:10:25] And that's another element where we've seen where he was conjuring up those sort of the elemental monsters there in Far From Home.

[00:10:36] Yeah.

[00:10:36] Yeah.

[00:10:37] A couple of the other characters that are introduced here, I suppose, is where the other cinematic universes come from.

[00:10:42] We've mentioned already Riri Williams coming in from Black Panther, Wakanda Forever, and should have been her own series, Iron Hat, which will be coming out in 2025, but was supposed to be coming out before.

[00:10:52] What if?

[00:10:53] Before the time change there.

[00:10:55] Yeah.

[00:10:55] And that's, we see definitely, you know, her inventor mode, her Tony Stark-like drive to creation and invention.

[00:11:06] Yeah.

[00:11:07] In record timing as well.

[00:11:09] Well, absolutely.

[00:11:09] Seven minutes, in fact.

[00:11:10] Seven and a half minutes.

[00:11:11] I need 12 hours.

[00:11:12] You have seven and a half minutes.

[00:11:13] Yeah.

[00:11:15] And then some of the other ones, we see Sharon Carter back here in this episode.

[00:11:19] We see a meeting between Riri Williams and Sharon Carter early on in the episode, and she's in her power broker state.

[00:11:26] Power broker we met in Falcon and the Winter Soldier, the TV series.

[00:11:31] So nice to see them use that for the first time since Falcon and the Winter Soldier.

[00:11:36] We're seeing that character in the power broker state, I suppose, or in that kind of position where she's trying to do some deal with Riri Williams.

[00:11:44] I thought that was kind of cool to see her in there.

[00:11:46] And Ying Nan, one of the members of the Alliance that we may not have seen very often, was played by Michelle Yeoh in Shang-Chi.

[00:11:52] So kind of cool to see her in there as well.

[00:11:54] Yeah, exactly.

[00:11:55] And Akoya and also Black Panther 2.

[00:11:58] Wong from the Doctor Strange movies, but also She-Hulk as well with Wongers.

[00:12:05] Yep, Wongers and Madison.

[00:12:08] And Madison.

[00:12:08] Yeah.

[00:12:11] Which definitely check that out.

[00:12:12] Absolutely.

[00:12:13] She's also appeared in the comics now as well.

[00:12:15] Yeah, she has, which is great.

[00:12:17] Yeah.

[00:12:18] The only other one that I think we should be mentioned really, I suppose, is White Vision, because he comes from the final episode of WandaVision.

[00:12:27] That's where we see White Vision for the first time.

[00:12:29] And that's the character we're going to see go on to his own series coming up, hopefully in 2025, 2026.

[00:12:35] Yeah, the more Vision is on the screen, the more he is truly terrifying.

[00:12:41] He is here.

[00:12:41] It certainly is here, but even like White Vision at the end of WandaVision is so uncompromising.

[00:12:48] Mm-hmm.

[00:12:49] And I don't know whether Vision, you know, he could easily become an Ultron Mark II very quickly, you know, that kind of switch.

[00:12:59] Yeah.

[00:13:00] So, yeah, kind of interesting seeing White Vision being so uncompromisingly evil, but technically a lapdog for Quentin Beck here.

[00:13:14] Yeah.

[00:13:14] Yeah.

[00:13:15] So, yeah, really good.

[00:13:16] So, loads of different elements here that kind of combine into this What If episode.

[00:13:22] Yeah.

[00:13:22] Yeah.

[00:13:22] And I think one of the things that the showrunners had said, that Brian Andrews had said, he wanted to make sure in this final season that they were doing something a bit bigger than just, you know, jumping into the Avengers and slightly changing the premise.

[00:13:35] And he wanted to look at it and see how we could do something really different with the show.

[00:13:40] So, on our usual point of What If there was a small change, the small change here is that Tiamat emerged before the Eternals could even get together to stop it.

[00:13:49] So, the idea in the MCU was that Tiamat was waiting for a point when the Earth got enough sustenance to raise him from his position.

[00:13:58] But here he raises way before the Eternals were able to even form as a group to stop him from rising.

[00:14:05] So, he comes out, explodes the planet.

[00:14:08] So, this happens way beforehand.

[00:14:10] And again, I kind of like that they've taken this as the idea for the episode.

[00:14:13] What if the emergence destroyed the Earth?

[00:14:15] We don't even see that on screen.

[00:14:16] That's not 15 minutes into the episode.

[00:14:18] That's prior to the episode starting almost.

[00:14:20] Yeah, I mean, I kind of take it more that in this universe, the Eternals are not trying to stop the emergence.

[00:14:32] Because the Eternals have been there for thousands of years.

[00:14:35] They've been placed on there to look after.

[00:14:37] Yeah.

[00:14:38] With the sort of lead, the apex eternal.

[00:14:42] So, it's not that the Eternals haven't formed.

[00:14:45] They are there.

[00:14:46] But it's that they don't look to stop the emergence.

[00:14:51] Or if they do, it doesn't work.

[00:14:53] And the emergence emerges.

[00:14:56] Yeah, that's probably my misunderstanding of the dialogue from the Watcher then.

[00:14:59] Because what the Watcher says is the emergence occurred years before the Eternals rose to stop it.

[00:15:05] So, yeah, the rise of them to actually stop it, which was a choice they made.

[00:15:08] So, in this case, they may have actually joined together and led it to happen.

[00:15:12] Thousands of years beforehand.

[00:15:14] Yeah.

[00:15:14] Yeah.

[00:15:14] Or hundreds of years beforehand, whichever way you want to say it.

[00:15:17] So, it seems to be that, really.

[00:15:19] And interestingly, that change is not the center of the episode.

[00:15:23] You know, the world has been destroyed.

[00:15:25] The Earth has been destroyed.

[00:15:26] But there's still a whole adventure happening afterwards, almost.

[00:15:29] You know, we still have this group forming together.

[00:15:32] The Alliance going up against the Iron Federation, which is led by Quentin Beck.

[00:15:38] Formed from his takeover of Stark Industries.

[00:15:41] White Vision here being his right-hand man as well.

[00:15:44] Being the enforcer, really, for Quentin Beck.

[00:15:48] Which is interesting.

[00:15:49] I think his purpose is to ensure that he gets rid of the Alliance before he dies himself.

[00:15:55] Which is his push, I suppose.

[00:15:59] Anything else that you think has changed for this episode overall, John?

[00:16:04] Yeah.

[00:16:05] Yeah.

[00:16:05] No, I mean, for me, the central premise, I think, that comes out from Riri is that, you know,

[00:16:10] the problem in this world is knowing who is real and who is fake.

[00:16:15] Yeah.

[00:16:16] And as formed from Quentin's illusion.

[00:16:17] So it's more that, you know, that Quentin is subjugating the people with a perception of reality that he is projecting here.

[00:16:30] And so you see that in a lot of the battles where a number of the robots of the Iron Federation,

[00:16:36] that the Stark Industries, Iron Man lookalike robots, you know, actually just aren't real.

[00:16:43] There's not that many of them.

[00:16:45] It's like when the Alliance attacks his sort of main base on one of the splintered pieces of Earth.

[00:16:54] There's not that many gun turrets.

[00:16:57] But it's trying to work out what is real and what isn't.

[00:17:01] So I kind of like all that.

[00:17:03] And I like just this idea of the Alliance.

[00:17:05] Because obviously this is pulling in other people.

[00:17:08] But actually it's really just come down to Wong, Yingnan, Valkyrie and Akoya.

[00:17:16] And they're the four that are remaining.

[00:17:17] It's effectively been whittled down over time.

[00:17:21] So all these people, in a sense, that's the new mission for the Avengers I took.

[00:17:26] And that's why she puts the Avengers.

[00:17:29] But it actually could be the A for the Alliance.

[00:17:32] Yeah, true.

[00:17:33] Rather than the Avengers here.

[00:17:36] And that's to give hope.

[00:17:38] Because maybe the Avengers never formed.

[00:17:42] Yeah.

[00:17:42] If the emergence came earlier.

[00:17:45] Again, it's a bit more what was changed forever.

[00:17:49] But I kind of took maybe it does mean for the Alliance.

[00:17:54] Because that ultimately was this universe's Avengers.

[00:17:58] Because it was all formed to stop and combat the rule of Quentin Beck.

[00:18:06] Yeah.

[00:18:07] Yeah, exactly.

[00:18:08] Exactly.

[00:18:08] So I thought that was really good.

[00:18:09] Yeah.

[00:18:10] Even with the trade-off with Sharon Carter and Riri Williams.

[00:18:15] They're just wanting to get the analog tech so that it doesn't fall foul of the vision.

[00:18:23] And the nanites.

[00:18:26] So everything is sort of super tech here.

[00:18:29] And Riri is trying to develop her tech through analog means.

[00:18:35] And just so that it doesn't fall foul of the power of vision.

[00:18:41] Yeah.

[00:18:42] Because what we see even, again, Wong's sort of Vashanti spell to protect Riri.

[00:18:50] While she's trying to construct this bit of tech in under seven minutes.

[00:18:55] It will only keep him for five.

[00:18:58] Yeah.

[00:18:58] Like he's pretty powered as vision.

[00:19:02] Or white vision.

[00:19:03] And I guess that's the other small change here.

[00:19:07] Yeah.

[00:19:07] Is you have white vision.

[00:19:11] Yeah.

[00:19:11] Whether that's something that was formed from vision.

[00:19:14] I don't really know the comic sort of history of vision as opposed to white vision.

[00:19:21] I don't really understand it through wonder vision.

[00:19:23] Exactly.

[00:19:23] So whether it formed through that way or this is the vision that formed from Quentin Beck's kind of takeover of Stark Industries.

[00:19:34] And how he effectively maybe corrupts or develops Jarvis.

[00:19:39] Yeah.

[00:19:40] So yeah, I thought it was really, really cool.

[00:19:42] Absolutely.

[00:19:43] Absolutely.

[00:19:43] It just had me thinking there about the analog tech versus the tech of Quentin Beck being very like Battlestar Galactica.

[00:19:49] Where they use the analog tech versus the Cylons.

[00:19:52] And so interesting little idea there as well.

[00:19:55] On our final point, in our final point of our top three, we have what if the universe was changed forever.

[00:20:00] So usually this is, you know, what is it about this universe that makes it so different from all the rest of the multiverse?

[00:20:04] The big difference here has to be kind of explained and voiceover from The Watcher.

[00:20:09] Because we haven't seen this type of world before where the emergence has happened.

[00:20:14] And he says over and over again that he's seen this happen with Riri Williams being the best and only hope for all of these universes in the multiverse.

[00:20:22] But in this universe, he helps her win.

[00:20:25] And that's the only universe where that happens.

[00:20:27] Yeah.

[00:20:27] It's interesting, isn't it?

[00:20:28] Because you get it right at the start.

[00:20:29] You know, where The Watcher is explaining, as you say, that Riri Williams is Earth's best hope.

[00:20:36] But despite everything, however many times she gets close, she fails.

[00:20:43] It always fails.

[00:20:44] This is an infinity loop of failure.

[00:20:49] And you feel the desperation in The Watcher's voice.

[00:20:54] And then it comes again as we progress through this story where the showdown between Quentin Beck and Riri Williams.

[00:21:05] And you have, you know, The Watcher effectively saying, I just can't bear to watch it one last time.

[00:21:13] And ultimately kind of, in a sense, stamps his foot and says no.

[00:21:18] You know, and then intervenes as he speaks to her to encourage her to fight back and be this kind of voice of encouragement.

[00:21:28] It's like the only other person we've seen who's kind of heard or sensed the presence of The Watcher has been Strange Supreme.

[00:21:37] I think Kaori has as well.

[00:21:40] Yes, I think Kaori did, yeah.

[00:21:41] Yeah, it only, like, she kind of more sensed it.

[00:21:45] And Peggy Carter as well.

[00:21:48] Like, will you ever shut up?

[00:21:50] I think she says to him when she hears you.

[00:21:51] Will you stop talking?

[00:21:52] So, you know, this is where he actively looks to make sure that she can hear his words of encouragement

[00:22:02] so that he doesn't have to watch her losing again and again.

[00:22:08] You know, he's seen this so many times.

[00:22:10] Yeah.

[00:22:11] Like, it must be its own form of torture in and of itself for The Watcher.

[00:22:15] So, I kind of like that idea that in a sense, you know, whilst we have the eminence and his two other colleagues or watchers

[00:22:29] talking about this as though, you know, what has he done kind of thing, we must, we can't allow this to stand.

[00:22:37] And then we must now keep an eye on him and watch him closely to make sure that he is not interfering.

[00:22:46] Yes.

[00:22:47] But, like, it must be torture just to watch the same thing over and over again, know the outcome.

[00:22:55] And when you hear that they are all watching, like, they can see everything.

[00:23:00] So, yeah, I kind of thought this was really, really cool.

[00:23:05] I like that his little bit of dabbling with the puppet strings was being noticed.

[00:23:12] Absolutely.

[00:23:12] I suppose it's an interesting little answer to that question of who watches The Watchmen from The Watchmen comic book and TV show.

[00:23:19] Who watches The Watchmen?

[00:23:20] Here it's who watches The Watcher.

[00:23:22] And now we found the people who are watching him to make sure he doesn't interfere.

[00:23:25] Just because he has an oath and swore an oath, he's already intervened in the episode, What If The Watcher Intervened?

[00:23:31] So, there are other people watching to see that.

[00:23:35] So, that's quite interesting.

[00:23:36] Also, the other thing about this episode is the darkness of it.

[00:23:39] You've mentioned part of it there with The Watcher has seen this happen over and over again, has seen Riri Williams die.

[00:23:45] And this universe lose its hero, Quentin Beck, win over and over again in many different multiverses.

[00:23:53] But that moment when Quentin explains to Riri that everything that's happened after the first battle where she killed Vision, everything that's happened after that is all an illusion of his and all of her friends are dead and shows her the death of each of the members of the Alliance.

[00:24:09] That's pretty dark for this episode.

[00:24:11] So, not only do you have The Watcher having seen this multiple times, but Riri is the only hero left.

[00:24:16] The entire Alliance has been broken apart and killed.

[00:24:20] They mentioned it earlier on to Riri when they come in to help her and she's going, well, let's make sure we get all the rest of them in here.

[00:24:27] And they go, no, Quentin's killed everybody else.

[00:24:29] So, there's only four of them left anyway.

[00:24:31] And now she finds out that all of them are dead as well.

[00:24:33] So, despite her win at the end of this and that sign of hope going up to any of the rest of the survivors that are out there, this is a completely different universe from anywhere else in the MCU.

[00:24:45] It's left with just Riri Williams being the only surviving hero of everybody that was up against Quentin Beck.

[00:24:51] She is the last survivor, really.

[00:24:53] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:24:54] Like, it is.

[00:24:54] It is really quite dark.

[00:24:57] And in a sense, that darkness weighs on The Watcher in sort of watching this endless darkness, you know, play out.

[00:25:09] Despite the power that she has created here, this fusion of human and synthesoid, you know, The Watcher effectively knows that this is still the end for her, even though she doesn't.

[00:25:22] You know, that this end approaches for her.

[00:25:25] So, yeah, it is quite dark, really.

[00:25:27] So, yeah.

[00:25:28] I kind of like that, though.

[00:25:30] I like that kind of tone for this because I think it matches well given the emergence, which is pretty dark in and of itself.

[00:25:41] And also then just how that makes The Watcher intervene in order to sort of bring that hope, which we get at the end.

[00:25:51] Exactly.

[00:25:51] Yeah.

[00:25:52] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:25:53] Any other notes?

[00:25:54] Anything else from the episode that you wanted to mention, John?

[00:25:55] No, nothing from myself.

[00:25:58] The only other thing for me that I wanted to mention was just I think it was I did like that idea of the illusions being put out there by Mysterio, him being in control of how everybody's seeing everything.

[00:26:09] But I was a little bit confused because it comes after the line with Sharon Carter or the power broker when she pulls the gun on Riri.

[00:26:15] And Riri says, after taking her out, says, you just don't know what's real and what isn't.

[00:26:22] Yeah.

[00:26:22] But the body of Sharon Carter is lying on the ground.

[00:26:25] And I was going, but if she wasn't real, wouldn't she have turned into nanites?

[00:26:28] So was the power broker real?

[00:26:30] Was Sharon Carter really there in the scene with Riri?

[00:26:34] Or was she just another illusion of Quentin Beck's?

[00:26:37] I just wasn't sure from the way that conversation played out.

[00:26:40] But it was great to see the character back there.

[00:26:43] Yeah, I assumed she was real and she was working for or had been persuaded to come on board to Quentin Beck, at least just for that mission.

[00:26:52] I guess so.

[00:26:53] And that's how I had thought about it.

[00:26:56] But yeah, exactly.

[00:26:56] What was real?

[00:26:57] What isn't?

[00:26:58] You know?

[00:26:58] Yeah.

[00:26:59] So, yeah.

[00:27:00] So that just leads us to one thing then, John.

[00:27:02] Do you defend season three, episode five?

[00:27:04] What if the emergence destroyed the earth?

[00:27:06] I do defend this episode.

[00:27:08] I give this four use your illusions out of five.

[00:27:11] I really kind of enjoyed this.

[00:27:16] I liked how it's the enormity of despair and watching it over and over again that effectively forces the hand of the watcher to give words of encouragement.

[00:27:32] And in order to make a change that brings hope to the world.

[00:27:37] And I think that, to me, was really, really good.

[00:27:40] I like the fact you have that kind of ending within then the three other watchers, the eminence, the incarnate and the executioner, sort of watching on and having noticed that and judging the watcher for doing that.

[00:27:58] So it'll be interesting to see what happens in the next episode as well.

[00:28:02] Yeah, I definitely defend this.

[00:28:04] As I say, four use your illusions out of five.

[00:28:08] Very good.

[00:28:08] Derek, do you defend this episode of What If?

[00:28:12] Definitely, yeah.

[00:28:13] This is definitely my type of What If episode.

[00:28:15] I love how they took this jumping off point that's really different from anything we've seen in the MCU before.

[00:28:21] Starting out with the destruction of the world and bringing in loads of characters that we haven't seen in anything else since their time in the MCU.

[00:28:29] Characters like Quentin Beck and Rui Williams and even seeing Ying Nan in there and seeing Sharon Carter in there.

[00:28:37] I think that's all really cool to have, to use those characters, not like the characters we normally would see in here.

[00:28:43] You'd expect that the episode was going to be the Avengers try and stop Quentin Beck, whereas none of these characters are in the Avengers, except for Wong maybe.

[00:28:51] I know he was invited to Tony's wedding in Endgame, but maybe he made the Avengers as well.

[00:28:58] But here, just having those different characters is great and having a really dark episode worked really well.

[00:29:04] Back on track for me for What If?

[00:29:06] No longer Derek out.

[00:29:09] Excellent stuff.

[00:29:11] Let us move on to our multiversal messages of feedback to see what our fellow defenders thought of this episode.

[00:29:21] First up from Coffin Vodka.

[00:29:23] He says, greetings fellow shattered world defenders.

[00:29:27] I can see why they showed the episodes in the order they did.

[00:29:30] Howard and Darcy with their miracle baby on Christmas, followed by the end of the world the next day.

[00:29:36] Art imitating life.

[00:29:37] Seems like Heather has got the right of it, though.

[00:29:41] This season does feel though it's been underwritten by Hallmark, although they seem to be joined by the Enlightened with this dark entry.

[00:29:48] Replace Mysterio with he who shall not be named in a socially, politically, and ecologically sundered world.

[00:29:55] Bring in a too little, too late message of hope, and you've got the night time yang to the comparative daylight yin of the rest of the season thus far.

[00:30:05] It's almost as if Disney got the gift of prophecy.

[00:30:08] I guess that's what happens when you've got Loki on your team.

[00:30:12] An excellent plotted and scripted episode with shades of old man Logan levels of dark drama.

[00:30:18] Ill-fated heroes on a no-win mission with a desperate Riri constantly trying to keep it sharp as she finds herself the tip of the spear.

[00:30:29] This until she finds herself broken and beaten.

[00:30:32] When the Watcher breaks his vow again, she wins the day and we finally get to the reason for this season.

[00:30:38] One, Uatu's End, heady stuff kids, another great one.

[00:30:43] Five power broker toaster ovens, re-re-revisions, and Mysterio's ways out of five.

[00:30:51] Peace and take care, coffee and vodka.

[00:30:53] Excellent stuff, coffee and vodka.

[00:30:55] Yeah, I think you're totally right.

[00:30:57] This would have been a little bit of a downer if this had come out on Christmas Day for sure.

[00:31:03] I think the interspecies Christmas surrogate of Howard and Darcy probably made sense in the scheme of things.

[00:31:17] All the kids crying over their presents on Christmas Day would have been like,

[00:31:21] what the hell is he watching from all the family?

[00:31:25] Yeah, doesn't normally work.

[00:31:26] I love your thought there that this is similar to the old man Logan idea,

[00:31:31] so very similar to the Logan movie, which was an excellent entry into the X-Men franchise.

[00:31:36] So I could see that as well.

[00:31:38] Great stuff.

[00:31:38] Thanks, coffee and vodka.

[00:31:39] We also got an email in from the Joyful Baker who had some thoughts on episode three and four.

[00:31:43] They sent an email in to us saying,

[00:31:45] Hi guys, hope you all had great holidays and have recovered from your colds.

[00:31:48] I wanted to wish you all a happy new year.

[00:31:50] I'm so glad I found your podcast this year.

[00:31:52] It's been great to listen to your backlog of episodes during the great holiday marathon of all the things at the restaurant.

[00:31:58] So many rolls, too many tiny desserts.

[00:32:00] This fall, I went back and watched the Marvel movies in chronological order up to the end game

[00:32:05] and listened along to your reviews.

[00:32:06] It was just so wonderful.

[00:32:08] Watching and listening along with you guys for the new What If? season,

[00:32:11] I have made it through episode four.

[00:32:13] Toss up between three and four on which is my favorite so far.

[00:32:16] Both made me laugh and the character relationships in each are different enough yet equally heartwarming.

[00:32:20] Don't you just want to give Bucky a hug?

[00:32:22] Murder arm and all.

[00:32:23] I think Howard and Darcy are going to be stellar parents.

[00:32:26] The hubby has agreed to a post-Christmas craziness relaxing Wi-Fi free vacation,

[00:32:30] so I will catch up with watching and listening to you guys next week.

[00:32:33] Hope you all have a great start to the new year.

[00:32:35] Cheers, the joyful Baker.

[00:32:37] Thank you so much for the email.

[00:32:39] Yeah, thank you so much, joyful Baker.

[00:32:42] Glad you've enjoyed the podcast that we've been doing to help you along with the Marvel movies

[00:32:50] as well as this What If?

[00:32:52] And apologies if you're coming across a rather downbeat.

[00:32:56] I'm so self-conscious because I really don't not defend very often.

[00:33:03] That's true, yeah.

[00:33:03] And I'm always conscious like, oh, did I get it right?

[00:33:06] And suddenly when I hear positive feedback, but look, hey, it's my own kind of view on it really.

[00:33:11] But I hope that's not been too despondent, but absolutely with you.

[00:33:18] I think there will be stellar parents.

[00:33:19] And of course, I think having a big hug from Bookie, I'd probably just pop like a pod of peas.

[00:33:29] Yeah, I'd rather hug Bookie than have Bookie hug me probably.

[00:33:33] Absolutely.

[00:33:34] Thanks so much, joyful Baker.

[00:33:35] Let's pop on over to Facebook for our Facebook feedback, for our Facebook multiversal messages as well.

[00:33:41] Yes.

[00:33:42] First up, Victor Von Doom who says,

[00:33:44] Riri, I said dismantle the vision, not recycle him.

[00:33:48] Don't you remember?

[00:33:48] He's got Ultron tech in him.

[00:33:51] Uatu agrees.

[00:33:52] He is really getting into his feelings and trouble again.

[00:33:56] Season's greetings all.

[00:33:58] Thanks so much, Victor.

[00:33:59] Season's greetings back, of course.

[00:34:01] And yeah, he is, Uatu or The Watcher is certainly getting back into his old interfering ways.

[00:34:11] And this time, it hasn't gone unnoticed.

[00:34:14] Maybe I was wrong.

[00:34:15] Maybe the character was named Desi Water in the TV series.

[00:34:18] In what a series series.

[00:34:19] I just don't remember.

[00:34:20] I thought he's just always been called The Watcher.

[00:34:22] I know it's that in the comics.

[00:34:24] So if I'm wrong, I'm really sorry about that.

[00:34:26] But I thought The Watcher.

[00:34:28] But yeah, I like that.

[00:34:29] But you're not supposed to recycle him.

[00:34:30] He's got Ultron tech inside.

[00:34:32] Absolutely.

[00:34:33] Thanks, Victor.

[00:34:34] Thanks, Victor.

[00:34:35] Also on Facebook, Patrick Lemke says,

[00:34:38] That got darker than I thought it would get towards the end.

[00:34:41] Yes, it certainly did, Patrick.

[00:34:44] It did.

[00:34:44] Yeah, yeah.

[00:34:44] All your friends are dead.

[00:34:46] You might as well give up now.

[00:34:47] Riri, I'll break your spirit.

[00:34:48] Yeah, that was pretty dark.

[00:34:50] But again, you know, The Watcher stepping in and helping out here

[00:34:54] and making sure that she wins and gives hope at the end,

[00:34:56] I think is really positive.

[00:34:57] But knowing in his mind that he's seen this multiple times

[00:35:01] across multiple universes makes it even darker, I think,

[00:35:04] because he has seen her give up and die.

[00:35:07] Yeah, definitely.

[00:35:08] You know.

[00:35:08] Definitely.

[00:35:09] And finally on Facebook, Joe Herber says,

[00:35:12] It's odd they didn't give even a hand-wavy explanation

[00:35:14] for how people could live on fragments of a broken planet.

[00:35:17] Maybe atmosphere, gravity, et cetera.

[00:35:20] Exactly.

[00:35:20] It appears they got fewer of the original actors to be in this one.

[00:35:23] However, Jason Isaacs was in the credit, which is interesting.

[00:35:26] As John mentioned, yeah, thanks, Joe.

[00:35:28] As John mentioned, Jason Isaacs playing The Eminence.

[00:35:31] But yeah, there weren't as many of the major cast that we would get in the show here.

[00:35:35] But we had Dominic Thorne coming back as Riri Williams,

[00:35:38] Emily van Kamp coming back as Sharon Carter, which is cool.

[00:35:40] Tessa Thompson coming back as Valkyrie.

[00:35:42] And as you said, Jason Isaacs in there.

[00:35:45] But for example, we didn't get Jake Gyllenhaal coming back to play Quentin Beck.

[00:35:48] No.

[00:35:48] To voice Quentin Beck, I suppose.

[00:35:50] And we didn't get Michelle Yeoh coming back to voice Ying-Nan either.

[00:35:54] So yeah, they aren't involved in this.

[00:35:57] But again, great to just see the characters back.

[00:36:00] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:36:01] Absolutely.

[00:36:01] Good stuff.

[00:36:03] Thanks so much, Joe and Patrick and Victor on Facebook.

[00:36:07] Really good to get your thoughts.

[00:36:09] Remember, fellow Defenders,

[00:36:11] you can email us through feedback at tvpodcastindustries.com

[00:36:15] or join us on our Facebook page and group over on facebook.com

[00:36:20] forward slash groups forward slash TV podcast industries.

[00:36:25] Absolutely.

[00:36:26] We'll be back next time with what I'm really looking forward to.

[00:36:29] What if season three, episode six?

[00:36:30] What if 1872?

[00:36:32] A brand new adventure with Shang-Chi, John.

[00:36:34] Very cool.

[00:36:35] Yeah, very much looking forward to that.

[00:36:37] Thanks so much for joining us.

[00:36:38] Speak to you next time.

[00:36:39] Yeah, thanks so much, fellow Defenders.

[00:36:40] Until the year 1872.

[00:36:44] Keep watching, keep listening, and of course, keep defending.

[00:36:47] Bye.

[00:36:47] Bye.