[00:00:00] This is the Defenders Podcast on TV Podcast Industries. We're back with What If Season 3, Episode 1, What If Hulk Fought the Mech Avengers.

[00:00:08] So that's it, huh? The rest of the world gets to fight your monsters while you just hide in fear?

[00:00:14] Fear? What do you know about fear, Sam? About being a threat? A living force of destruction?

[00:00:22] I know you can't get past the things that scare you if you don't face them.

[00:00:27] Why do you think I built this protocol? You built it to use against yourself?

[00:00:33] I built it to protect everyone from a monster no one can control.

[00:00:39] Look, I've never seen a monster when I look at you, Bruce. I've only ever seen my friend.

[00:00:45] I guess I hoped if you faced this thing, then maybe you'd see what I see too.

[00:01:12] Welcome back, fellow defenders, to our What If Podcast on TV Podcast Industries.

[00:01:17] We're onto the final season of What If, starting with Season 3, Episode 1, What If Hulk Fought the Mech Avengers.

[00:01:24] I'm one of your hosts, Derek.

[00:01:25] Yes, hello and a happy, festive, seasonal Christmas holiday season to you, fellow defenders.

[00:01:34] I am your other host, Jon.

[00:01:36] Yeah, yeah. Welcome back, fellow defenders. You probably hear, you might hear in our voices that we're teetering on the edge of flus and colds.

[00:01:43] There's no teetering about it.

[00:01:44] Jon's already been diagnosed with a flu.

[00:01:45] I am full on flu with antibiotics to prevent chest infection.

[00:01:51] So I wish you a pleasant non-green Christmas in this Hulk special.

[00:01:56] Absolutely.

[00:01:56] Yeah, that's gorgeous, Jon.

[00:01:59] But what better to cheer us up than a Saturday morning cartoon episode of What If, huh?

[00:02:05] Yes.

[00:02:08] A smorgasbord of references, dare I say it.

[00:02:11] Exactly.

[00:02:11] And we'll discuss it all, obviously, in spoiler-filled detail.

[00:02:13] Go out and check it out now.

[00:02:14] New episodes of What If are coming out every single day over the next eight days until the end of the season.

[00:02:19] Unfortunately, that does mean we're not going to be able to record every single day, but we did want to get the first episode out as soon as we could.

[00:02:23] And then we'll hopefully get the second episode out on the same day, and we'll probably take a break over those three Christmas days, because we're not going to be here.

[00:02:30] We're not going to be anywhere near our microphones for a couple of days, but we will catch up, I promise.

[00:02:34] Yes.

[00:02:35] And fellow defenders, whilst we are committed, we do have to take some Christmassy downtime with our families as well.

[00:02:43] Yeah, I still would have done it, but we're not going to.

[00:02:46] No, I wouldn't.

[00:02:47] We're not going to.

[00:02:47] But during that time, and any other time, you can always send us feedback on your thoughts of each of the episodes to feedback at tvpodcastindustries.com,

[00:02:54] or pop on over to our Facebook group at facebook.com slash groups slash tvpodcastindustries,

[00:02:59] where there will be a spoiler post appearing as the episodes air, so you can pop on your spoiler-filled thoughts and we'll discuss them on the podcast.

[00:03:05] Yes, and if you're joining us for the first time, remember there are another two seasons of What If podcasts that you have,

[00:03:12] so you can head on over to our website at tvpodcastindustries.com, where you can subscribe to any Mechagodzilla or non-Mechagodzilla podcast catcher of your choice.

[00:03:24] Yes, you can.

[00:03:25] Yes, you can.

[00:03:26] By Godzilla, of course.

[00:03:27] I mean Hulk.

[00:03:28] Yes, and we are wrapping up our 10th year of podcasting with TV Podcast Industries.

[00:03:33] We started out with Gotham TV Podcast 10 years ago, and leading into our 10th anniversary of Defenders TV Podcast next year, John.

[00:03:41] Indeed.

[00:03:42] Which was our Marvel Podcast which kicked off with Daredevil, and we're returning to Daredevil next year as a big celebration.

[00:03:47] Very, very cool.

[00:03:48] I believe Marvel Studios just were like, we should give them their anniversary gift here.

[00:03:53] If only.

[00:03:54] DC did it with the penguins, bringing us back to Gotham for our 10th anniversary of Gotham TV Podcast.

[00:03:59] That's true. The stars align.

[00:04:01] Yes, they do.

[00:04:02] Yes, they do.

[00:04:02] But that'll be good fun.

[00:04:03] I'll be looking forward to that.

[00:04:04] Before we get into this season of What If, I just want to do a quick wrap up of John's ratings for What If so far.

[00:04:10] It gives us a little kind of benchmark for where this may be sitting within the realm.

[00:04:15] I'm not going to go through all of these because it's obviously been two full seasons, but interestingly, there are five episodes of the show that you've given five for, John.

[00:04:23] Five shows got five out of five.

[00:04:25] There it is.

[00:04:26] Doctor Strange loses his heart.

[00:04:27] Of course.

[00:04:28] Ultron wins.

[00:04:28] Nebula joins the Nova Corps, which was the first episode of season two, a Kihori episode, and Hela with the Ten Rings, where she joins with Shang-Chi.

[00:04:37] So interesting choices there for your top listing episodes.

[00:04:41] Isn't it just really?

[00:04:41] Yeah, yeah.

[00:04:41] Absolutely.

[00:04:42] The Kihori episode, of course, was excellent.

[00:04:45] The opener for season two interestingly got you a five out of five.

[00:04:50] I loved it.

[00:04:51] It was kind of pure sort of detective noir.

[00:04:54] Exactly.

[00:04:55] Which was very, very cool.

[00:04:56] Kihori loved that kind of stuff, to be honest.

[00:04:59] I find it always so interesting.

[00:05:01] And in this case as well, the story was just really, really good.

[00:05:05] Yeah.

[00:05:06] And I've always had a soft spot for the Ten Rings because I'm kind of longing for Shang-Chi too.

[00:05:11] Absolutely.

[00:05:12] And I think, in a sense, Hela and the Ten Rings brought that little intermission.

[00:05:17] Exactly.

[00:05:18] You know, along where we could enjoy the Ten Rings once again.

[00:05:22] Yes, we could.

[00:05:22] And we will obviously talk a little bit more about Simu Liu and Shang-Chi in this episode as we get into it.

[00:05:28] But let's look at the other end of the scale, John, unless you want to look at any of the other areas of your ratings.

[00:05:33] I want to look at the bottoms and tops for this one.

[00:05:36] So the lowest scoring episodes that you had, I think unsurprisingly here.

[00:05:42] Season one, episode seven, Thor Only Child, which I think is my least favorite episode of the show as well so far.

[00:05:48] That's the groaning, grumpy party animal that is Thor.

[00:05:52] Didn't really like that episode.

[00:05:53] And then season two, episode four, which was the Grandmaster episode with Iron Man,

[00:05:58] where Iron Man goes to the same planet from Ragnarok with the Grandmaster in charge.

[00:06:03] Yeah.

[00:06:04] Didn't really like that one either.

[00:06:06] No, absolutely.

[00:06:07] I kind of just like, yeah, but good.

[00:06:10] Enjoyable.

[00:06:11] Dare I say it, not to put too many spoilers on it, but possibly depending on how this discussion goes,

[00:06:18] there could be another one joining the lower ranks of my ratings.

[00:06:24] Okay.

[00:06:24] Well, let's get into our discussion about this episode of What If, What If season three, episode one,

[00:06:29] What If Hulk battled the Mech Avengers?

[00:06:31] Absolutely.

[00:06:32] Derek, give us some of the episode details.

[00:06:34] Well, executive producers for the show.

[00:06:36] Once again, Matthew Chauncey, Brian Andrews and Brad Winterbaum with Kevin Feige.

[00:06:40] The head writer for this series is now Matthew Chauncey, who replaced the previous head writer for the show, AC Bradley.

[00:06:45] And this episode, though, has got AC Bradley as one of the story writers, along with Brian Andrews, one of the executive producers.

[00:06:52] The teleplay for the episode was written by Ryan Little.

[00:06:54] Previously, Ryan wrote two other episodes of What If.

[00:06:57] He wrote the Keohori Reshape the World episode, which is one of your top fives.

[00:07:01] And he also co-wrote The Avengers Assembled in 1602 episode as well.

[00:07:05] Which I also loved.

[00:07:06] It was a great episode.

[00:07:07] Great episode.

[00:07:08] And really recently, go check this out, he wrote the Marvel Comics introduction of Keohori Reshaper of the World in 2024.

[00:07:14] They released an issue which is about Keohori meeting up with other characters in the Marvel Comics universe as well.

[00:07:20] So she has now officially been introduced into canon in Marvel Comics.

[00:07:24] So go check that out.

[00:07:24] Excellent stuff.

[00:07:25] Yeah, looking all good so far.

[00:07:27] And I think the next one would suggest that it should be a great one for me.

[00:07:32] Yeah, yeah.

[00:07:32] The director of the episode is Stefan Frank, who directed the premiere of season two.

[00:07:36] What if Nebula joined the Nova Corps?

[00:07:38] So again, another one of your five out of five episodes, John.

[00:07:42] Interesting what they supplied in this episode and how they delivered.

[00:07:45] John, do you want to give us your synopsis for this first episode of the final season of What If?

[00:07:51] Sure.

[00:07:52] When Sam Wilson meets a broken Bruce Banner, he tries to help him control the monster inside him through his counseling sessions with war veterans.

[00:07:59] But on a fishing trip with Sam and his sister Sarah, Bruce loses control and the Hulk is released.

[00:08:05] Fleeing from the ship and his friend Sam Banner, partially inspired by his friend Sam, but also his own loathing of the Hulk tries to separate the beast from his human self, but inadvertently creates an apex gamma beast hellbent on destruction.

[00:08:21] The Avengers, Steve Rogers, Thor, Tony Stark, Clint Barton and Natasha Romanoff create giant Hulk busters to beat their enemy, but they are lost in battle.

[00:08:32] Their loss inspires the surviving heroes to win the first gamma war.

[00:08:37] Ten years later, the apex rises again, stronger, more powerful and with thousands of gamma beasts that are now an organized invasion force.

[00:08:48] Sam Wilson, now the leader of the new Avengers team, including Nakia, Moon Knight, the Red Guardian, Melina Vostkov, Bucky Barnes, Shang-Chi and Monica Rambeau, enlists his old friend Banner's help to win the fight when their mechs fail.

[00:09:04] While Bruce is reluctant to get involved, he has created a program for a mech avenger, combining all the other mechs into one supreme robot, the mighty avenger.

[00:09:15] While it's able to distract the apex's minions, it cannot handle the apex, but Bruce takes on the power of a gamma bomb, creating a mega Hulk, who kills and replaces the apex.

[00:09:28] Calm by the words of his friend Sam Wilson, mega Hulk leads the gamma beasts away from a destroyed New Yorkian civilization to their own island retreat.

[00:09:40] Yeah, I don't think they really saved New York very much in this episode, did they?

[00:09:42] Not at all.

[00:09:44] It was a little bit weird when Bruce arrives with the old bomber, the old sort of long-range bomber for sort of nuclear attack.

[00:09:56] And they're going to drop it over New York.

[00:09:59] Like, he can't do that.

[00:10:00] But no, he's going to absorb the gamma radiation.

[00:10:02] It will be fine as huge mushroom clouds goes over New York.

[00:10:08] Yeah.

[00:10:08] Seemingly destroying all of New York.

[00:10:11] So I don't think New York really got away from that fate, really.

[00:10:16] I don't think it did.

[00:10:16] We do see some buildings in the background, but they look in the far distance.

[00:10:19] So maybe he just destroyed Manhattan.

[00:10:20] But I presume he destroyed by radiation.

[00:10:23] Probably.

[00:10:23] Probably.

[00:10:24] But let's get into our top three for this episode.

[00:10:27] If you haven't joined us for the What If episodes before, we do have a slightly different structure for this,

[00:10:30] because What If is based on a central concept of what's been changed from the universe that we know in the Marvel Cinematic Universe.

[00:10:37] So our first point, as always, is what if we had seen this before?

[00:10:41] So name the cinematic universe movies that are the inspiration for this episode.

[00:10:45] The first one for me, I thought, was that the first Gamma War seems to be in place of the Battle of New York.

[00:10:51] So the arrival of Loki and the minions to New York that had all the Avengers uniting together to take on Thanos.

[00:11:00] Yeah, it seems like that, because at the head of it, it is Iron Man, Steve Rogers, Hawkeye, Natasha Romanoff, and so on.

[00:11:09] Yeah.

[00:11:09] So yeah, this seems to be the stand-in that's happened for the attack by Thanos on New York.

[00:11:15] Yeah.

[00:11:15] But it kind of links back to that, in a sense, the Winter Soldier connects with Banner on his morning jog around the Washington Memorial Monuments.

[00:11:30] And that on-your-left scene that we know from Captain America and the Winter Soldier.

[00:11:34] Yeah.

[00:11:34] Here, instead of Captain America, it's Sam.

[00:11:37] Yeah.

[00:11:38] It's the Falcon, who is connecting with Bruce Banner and make that connection here.

[00:11:45] Which does make me wonder whether that battle is the replacement for the Battle of New York.

[00:11:49] Because I suppose at the beginning of the episode, the Avengers are together as a group already,

[00:11:53] which is what the Battle of New York brought them together in the MCU.

[00:11:57] So they seem to have been together for a little while.

[00:11:59] So maybe it's not.

[00:12:00] Maybe it's just an additional battle after they went up against Ultron, maybe.

[00:12:03] Something like that.

[00:12:04] But, so they have been together for a while.

[00:12:06] But the on-your-left scene, you're right, it does seem to be similar to the Winter Soldier moment.

[00:12:11] But again, you know, we know that Sam was running around the park for many times before he meets up with Steve Rogers.

[00:12:18] But, I mean, it is difficult to place.

[00:12:20] And I think, actually, when you start having multiple branching timelines and multiple multiverses,

[00:12:26] then actually the placement of it becomes a bit difficult.

[00:12:29] And I guess, to some extent, is that important or not?

[00:12:32] I guess, to some degree, it is.

[00:12:37] If you're really mad into the continuity stuff of Marvel, I don't really have a problem with it.

[00:12:44] But nonetheless, knowing that they're kind of, you know, continuity, you know, the Marvel MCU,

[00:12:52] you sort of slightly OCD about it with Kevin Feige, it is difficult to place where this is.

[00:13:00] And it's not even really fully described by the Watcher, who is normally the person that just does that sort of couple of lines that sets that alternate.

[00:13:10] So I initially thought this was just in a random other part of the multiverse, in another universe.

[00:13:18] Because, you know, it's also about the mecha robots, you know, other than the Hulkbuster.

[00:13:25] I guess that's the evolution of these Transformers, robots in disguise kind of groupings.

[00:13:34] But, yeah.

[00:13:36] Voltron, Battle of the Planets, loads of other references there, of course, to what they're riffing off.

[00:13:41] But that's another good point.

[00:13:42] The Hulkbuster was created for Bruce Banner when he wasn't a Hulk.

[00:13:48] In here, they're saying that they're creating these mecha versions of the Hulkbuster armor

[00:13:53] to go up and battle against these Gamma.

[00:13:55] But they're bigger than the Hulkbuster as well.

[00:13:57] Much bigger because, of course, the Gamma monster is much bigger.

[00:13:59] It's like, what's it, Pacific Rim, those films?

[00:14:01] Yeah.

[00:14:01] It's almost like those kind of mecha, kaiju robots.

[00:14:07] I mean, as I say, this is like smorgasbord heavy.

[00:14:10] It is.

[00:14:10] On riffing off other properties and itself.

[00:14:14] Yeah.

[00:14:14] And I'm kind of like, I get it.

[00:14:17] But I'm like, please, like something original.

[00:14:22] I mean, I think the Gremlins are thrown in here at some point and Godzilla 2000, 2002,

[00:14:29] the one with Matthew Broderick.

[00:14:30] Okay.

[00:14:31] With like the first wave of the attack of the Apex Hulk.

[00:14:35] I'd love to know what the Gremlins are from.

[00:14:36] Where all the minions come out, popping out of his back.

[00:14:39] Yeah, of course.

[00:14:40] I just immediately thought Gremlins.

[00:14:42] And now I was thinking more Matthew Broderick Godzilla from like the early noughties where

[00:14:48] it lays eggs in New York.

[00:14:50] So that kind of thing.

[00:14:51] Yeah.

[00:14:52] So, yeah.

[00:14:52] I mean, there's tons of references to other movies as well as within the Marvel universe.

[00:14:58] There is absolutely lots of inspiration taken across the world of movies.

[00:15:02] One of the things I did like as well, though, we do see Sam's sister in here.

[00:15:05] Sam's sister, Sarah, from Falcon and Winter Soldier, somebody that we met and was on the

[00:15:10] journey with Sam after he came back from his snap.

[00:15:14] And their ship, which doesn't seem particularly seaward.

[00:15:17] Doesn't seem to go down very well when there's a slight storm.

[00:15:20] But then again, it did have a Hulk on board.

[00:15:21] That almost smashed the whole thing to pieces.

[00:15:23] Well, that was true as well.

[00:15:24] I was thinking, Hulk, you really are silly.

[00:15:27] Smashing through the deck of the ship.

[00:15:30] But I think in Falcon and the Winter Soldier, the ship needed repairing as well.

[00:15:35] But it looked quite repaired.

[00:15:36] So I think overall, the way I'd probably sum it up is Sam never had that meeting with Steve

[00:15:42] Rogers.

[00:15:42] So he hasn't become Falcon.

[00:15:43] Exactly.

[00:15:44] He eventually gets inspired to become an Avenger at a later stage.

[00:15:47] But at this point, he's still hanging out with his sister.

[00:15:49] He's still he's a friend of Bruce Banner's rather than of Steve Rogers.

[00:15:54] I suppose.

[00:15:54] Exactly.

[00:15:55] That's exactly the point that it comes to here.

[00:15:56] Yeah.

[00:15:57] And ultimately does become a new Avenger sort of later on as Captain America.

[00:16:03] Yeah.

[00:16:03] Yeah.

[00:16:04] So despite those sort of nuances and changes, he ends up being where he is as well.

[00:16:09] Exactly.

[00:16:09] In the current MCU.

[00:16:12] Exactly.

[00:16:12] And speaking of those new Avengers, they come from lots of different corners of the Marvel

[00:16:16] Universe now, whichever you like.

[00:16:17] You have Shang-Chi in there.

[00:16:18] We have the Red Guardian and his wife from Black Widow.

[00:16:22] Yeah.

[00:16:22] And we have Black Panther.

[00:16:23] This time, interestingly, it's Nakia, not Shuri.

[00:16:26] Yeah.

[00:16:26] Providing the inspiration for the character from the Black Panther Universe.

[00:16:30] We also have Mark Spector from Moonlight.

[00:16:32] Yeah.

[00:16:32] We have Oscar Isaac coming back.

[00:16:34] And I think the only real moment that he has in the episode is kind of going, oh, teaming

[00:16:38] up, who would have thought this would save the day?

[00:16:40] Because Moonlight is well known as a character that doesn't like to team up.

[00:16:43] No, absolutely.

[00:16:44] I did feel it wasn't totally obvious that that was Moonlight, to be honest.

[00:16:50] Except for the moon in his chest and the mention of country.

[00:16:52] No, I know.

[00:16:53] But you didn't really get a sense.

[00:16:55] Yeah.

[00:16:56] I didn't get a sense that that was Mark Spector and Moonlight from the excellent Moonlight

[00:17:03] series, which I loved.

[00:17:04] Yeah.

[00:17:05] And gave it fives across the board.

[00:17:07] Yeah.

[00:17:07] So I just felt that was a little underplayed, to be honest.

[00:17:09] Yeah.

[00:17:10] Yeah, I think so.

[00:17:10] But it does make me think that that means we're going to have Oscar Isaac back for another

[00:17:15] part of the season later on.

[00:17:16] We're going to see Mark Spector at some point later on in the season as well.

[00:17:19] The one really interesting one for me, and I know you've already talked about nitpicking

[00:17:23] of the MCU and nitpicking of the movies.

[00:17:26] This is the only nitpick I would have.

[00:17:28] Everybody here would still exist in the MCU to the point where this change happens, except

[00:17:34] for the other member of the team, and she's the kind of co-commander of the new Avengers,

[00:17:38] Monica Rambeau.

[00:17:39] She only got her powers in WandaVision when Scarlet Witch created Westview and she broke

[00:17:45] through the barrier to get her powers and become Spectrum, as she's known in the comic books.

[00:17:49] But in this universe, that wouldn't have happened because, well, Scarlet Witch isn't a member

[00:17:54] of the Avengers at all that we see, and Vision didn't die.

[00:17:58] So would Scarlet Witch have created Westview if Thanos hadn't come around and killed Vision?

[00:18:02] So everybody else was on their path to creation.

[00:18:04] Shang-Chi in his own way.

[00:18:06] The characters in Black Widow were already pre-existing in the Avengers, and Akea, of

[00:18:10] course, was pre-existing, and Moon Knight has no connection at all to any of the Avengers.

[00:18:13] Yeah, no, exactly.

[00:18:14] So, I mean, I'm guessing that all that stuff happened for Monica to be there.

[00:18:19] Yeah, interesting.

[00:18:19] It was even, I was thinking at it from the other side of the Marvels.

[00:18:24] I just kind of assumed that had happened.

[00:18:27] Right.

[00:18:27] I was thinking, oh, but didn't she have to go to another universe in the multiverse in

[00:18:33] order to seal up the boundaries between those two universes at the end of the Marvels?

[00:18:42] And so Monica Rambeau is actually lost to time.

[00:18:45] So unless that then never happens.

[00:18:48] Well, this story here takes place before that would have happened.

[00:18:51] But that's what I mean.

[00:18:52] I think the placing of it is a little hard to catch, I think.

[00:18:57] I mean, but as I say, I just don't know whether that's important because I think with the 1602

[00:19:02] one, last one, that in a sense was just out of its time.

[00:19:06] Like, do you know what I mean?

[00:19:08] It was within the story of What If rather than the story of the MCU.

[00:19:13] And I think here the intriguing point about it is this is the opener of season three where I don't expect it to be carrying through those tales of Strange Supreme.

[00:19:25] I might be wrong.

[00:19:27] I might totally be wrong.

[00:19:28] Like, I know there's a Kahori episode.

[00:19:31] Kahori will be back this season, yes.

[00:19:32] Will be back.

[00:19:33] Yeah.

[00:19:33] So maybe, but I'm not really expecting that.

[00:19:35] So to me, there's a whole kind of new sort of framework being built here.

[00:19:41] And I just, I guess that's what gave me hope with this episode was that it was very intriguing.

[00:19:47] What is happening?

[00:19:48] You know, and I feel it might be to do with what happens at the end to some degree.

[00:19:54] And of course, the new, you know, this new phase of the MCU, I think it might be leaning more in towards that.

[00:20:01] So it'd be interesting to see, you know?

[00:20:03] Yeah.

[00:20:04] Yeah.

[00:20:04] I know they've kind of pulled the rug out from under us in the past with these What If series where they put out an episode and you go, how is that going to possibly connect to the rest of the show?

[00:20:12] And then they pick up a character from it and put them into the Guardians of the Multiverse or something like that by the end of the series.

[00:20:17] So we absolutely could see this mega Hulk coming back at the end of the series, or we could see this version of Sam Wilson coming back at the end of the series.

[00:20:25] But really interesting to have all these characters coming together as the new Avengers in the episode.

[00:20:29] The only other one really, I guess, that's connected to an MCU movie, I think from the references, have we seen it before, is the arrival of Hulk is very like the Avengers Endgame on your left scene.

[00:20:41] So sparking out of the meeting of Sam and Bruce Banner, where they have the on your left scene in that final battle when Bruce arrives in and is playing, he calls out on your left, which is the same way that Falcon arrived in Endgame to battle against Thanos.

[00:20:58] So that's the only other little reference there.

[00:21:00] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:21:02] Shall we move on to our next point?

[00:21:04] What if there was a small change?

[00:21:06] Yeah.

[00:21:07] The premise of this episode.

[00:21:09] Yeah, and I think this is kind of an interesting one because it sounds really negative when I wrote it down.

[00:21:14] The small change that happens is Bruce makes a friend in Sam Wilson.

[00:21:18] Sam Wilson consoles him, creates this friendship with him.

[00:21:22] And because of Bruce not wanting to show that evil, dark side of himself, the Hulk, to Sam, his friend now, he tries to separate himself from the Hulk, creates the apex, killing the Avengers, destroying half the world, it seems.

[00:21:36] So to me, that sounds like a really dark premise of the episode.

[00:21:39] If you make a good friend, things can go really badly.

[00:21:43] And then I think the whole episode ends with sometimes the greatest heroes are the friends that accept you for who you really are, even if that is a gigantic mega beast.

[00:21:53] I wouldn't go in that way.

[00:21:54] I think it's more about Bruce being ashamed and, in a sense, dishonest with his friends about the extent to which, in a sense, I say embarrassed, that's not the right word, but hates the Hulk.

[00:22:08] You know, I think it leans into, I think, Bruce's psyche.

[00:22:13] You know, we were talking about this just after watching the episode.

[00:22:17] You know, it's almost the insanity of Bruce Banner.

[00:22:23] Yeah.

[00:22:23] That he goes to separate himself from the Hulk by doing exactly the same thing that created the Hulk and expecting something different.

[00:22:30] I think, you know, doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different outcome is sort of the definition of insanity, I think, is what kind of Einstein said.

[00:22:40] You know?

[00:22:41] Because he says, Gamma created the monster.

[00:22:43] I'm sure Gamma can stop the monster.

[00:22:46] I'll throw even more Gamma rays into myself.

[00:22:48] Exactly.

[00:22:48] And, I mean, so it's kind of, it's that Jekyll and Hyde.

[00:22:55] It's that classic Jekyll and Hyde.

[00:22:56] And he is ashamed, afraid, embarrassed, whatever it is, to show that secret side of himself.

[00:23:05] Or, you know, and there's many sort of parallels that you can play to that within normal life.

[00:23:11] You know?

[00:23:12] Absolutely.

[00:23:12] And here it's that he is still, despite the openness, the willingness of Sam Wilson, he, you know, in a brief lapse due to, you know, stormy weather, shows that side of him.

[00:23:29] Mm-hmm.

[00:23:29] And that's where he flees.

[00:23:32] That's where then the distance comes in between Bruce Banner and Sam Wilson.

[00:23:36] It's not because of the friendship.

[00:23:37] I think Bruce probably pines for that.

[00:23:40] Mm-hmm.

[00:23:41] But he's always tried to keep himself to himself because, yes, he's worried about what he does, but it's not just that outward effect of being the Hulk.

[00:23:53] Yeah.

[00:23:54] And causing damage or death and so on.

[00:23:57] That is part of it.

[00:23:58] But there is an internal element here because of what he's done to himself.

[00:24:02] Mm-hmm.

[00:24:03] Absolutely.

[00:24:03] And that and what he's got to live with.

[00:24:07] So it's that internalization of that, which Sam, through the, you know, the therapy sessions with the other war veterans that we see right at the start is what he's trying to do.

[00:24:16] I like the fact that they also kind of have battlefield therapy as well, where, you know, the voiceover as the new mega apex Hulk a la Bruce Banner is fighting the other apex.

[00:24:35] Mm-hmm.

[00:24:35] And doesn't really seem to be winning.

[00:24:38] And so it's kind of like needs a little bit of help from his Avenger friends here with the, you know, the convenient fist of Kaiju mecha Avenger.

[00:24:51] And, you know.

[00:24:52] A fist of Kaiju, not the fist of Kaiju.

[00:24:54] Yeah, exactly.

[00:24:55] So I kind of liked how you kind of get that little sort of parallel of this therapy session between Sam and Bruce just on the battlefield.

[00:25:06] Yeah.

[00:25:06] He needs a little bit of help from his friends kind of thing.

[00:25:09] He gets some help and is able to defeat the Kaiju.

[00:25:13] And equally, you kind of get that repeated again to some extent by the watcher right at the end.

[00:25:22] But also the watcher is making that point that it's knowing your, you know, your true friends are people who know, you know, you across the spectrum of you.

[00:25:35] Exactly.

[00:25:36] You know?

[00:25:36] Yeah.

[00:25:37] And accept you for that.

[00:25:38] Yeah.

[00:25:39] I guess to a limit.

[00:25:41] Well, yes.

[00:25:42] Hopefully not.

[00:25:42] But hopefully most of the friends' secrets aren't that they are a mega Hulk battling monster that will kill loads of people around them.

[00:25:51] I'm not too sure about that final line of the episode.

[00:25:53] The final line of the episode really reminded me of that, you know, sometimes it's the friends we make along the way kind of thing.

[00:25:59] That's not the destination.

[00:26:00] It's the friends we make along the way.

[00:26:01] I'm not too sure whether it was the best written line that What If have had.

[00:26:04] Probably not.

[00:26:05] In the past.

[00:26:06] But yes, it is summed up with the friendship, I suppose, between Bruce and Sam.

[00:26:11] And that's the big difference because they didn't have that friendship in the MCU before.

[00:26:15] And again, this whole testing that Bruce does on himself to try and eliminate the Hulk, it's something that we didn't see as much in the MCU.

[00:26:22] We saw it in the Incredible Hulk movie that Ed Norton was in.

[00:26:27] That's what he was trying to do.

[00:26:28] He was trying to do lots of experiments on himself to get rid of the Hulk.

[00:26:31] We definitely saw it throughout the 60 or so years of the comic books.

[00:26:35] That's something that often happens where Bruce tries to take the Hulk out of himself and it creates an even worse monster and even worse villain.

[00:26:44] And it was something that was used in the television show in the 70s.

[00:26:47] He was always trying to find an experiment that would get rid of the Hulk, David Banner, going around the country trying to find ways to rid himself of the Hulk.

[00:26:53] And I like that.

[00:26:55] I kind of like the throwback to the earlier cartoon style as well.

[00:26:59] That was good.

[00:27:00] I thought that was a really nice little touch.

[00:27:02] In Go Avengers Heroes of the Gamma War.

[00:27:04] Yes.

[00:27:05] Yeah.

[00:27:05] I thought that was pretty cool.

[00:27:07] Yeah.

[00:27:07] It was awesome.

[00:27:08] I think that probably as well because it reminded me of myself as a kid watching cartoons that were created 20 or 30 years beforehand because we had no access to anything at all.

[00:27:16] So we have this young girl at the beginning watching Go Avengers Heroes of the Gamma War on her iPad, a cartoon that was created in the 80s or the 70s for herself as well.

[00:27:27] So I thought that was kind of cool.

[00:27:28] Even though I think it's a bit weird that they were talking about the heroes of the Gamma War when in real life that was actually hadn't happened yet.

[00:27:37] But anyway, that doesn't matter.

[00:27:39] It's just a cartoon.

[00:27:39] It's art imitating life.

[00:27:41] It is.

[00:27:42] It's art in life.

[00:27:43] In art.

[00:27:44] In art.

[00:27:45] In life.

[00:27:45] That hasn't been written yet.

[00:27:46] Exactly.

[00:27:47] Exactly.

[00:27:47] Right.

[00:27:48] I think that's the small change.

[00:27:49] Right.

[00:27:49] Our final one of our top three points in What If is what if the universe was changed forever?

[00:27:55] This is always so difficult in the first episode of What If when we haven't seen anything else.

[00:28:00] So what would be so different about the world now that we've seen this big change?

[00:28:03] Well, that software updates can have a real powerful effect on the hardware.

[00:28:11] They certainly can.

[00:28:11] With the old Mighty Avengers Protocol creating Mighty Mecha Mega, not Transformers Avengers.

[00:28:24] Yes.

[00:28:24] Yeah.

[00:28:24] Yes.

[00:28:25] I loved it.

[00:28:26] It reminded me of Rick and Morty, actually, that we've just seen there recently.

[00:28:29] Exactly.

[00:28:30] With all the...

[00:28:31] Go, go, go, go bots.

[00:28:33] Yes, exactly.

[00:28:33] All the go, go, go bots coming together.

[00:28:36] So I was like, I guess there are only four stories that you can do.

[00:28:43] But nonetheless, yeah, I like this.

[00:28:45] I like the fact that, yes, it shows that at least in another world somewhere, software updates actually have a purpose.

[00:28:51] They have a positive impact.

[00:28:53] Yes.

[00:28:53] That you can see as an end user.

[00:28:55] Now, while I know you say it takes inspiration from the same thing as that Rick and Morty episode, I wouldn't suggest that a lot of people who watched this episode or the younger people who watched this episode watch that Rick and Morty episode because there's some things not meant for youngers.

[00:29:08] Probably not.

[00:29:08] Probably not in that one.

[00:29:08] But I think the major change that happens here in this particular universe and why it will be so different to all the other universes in the multiverse is that all the Avengers are dead.

[00:29:18] All the original Avengers, all five of them are dead by the end of the episode.

[00:29:22] Hulk is the only one that remains alive.

[00:29:24] And he is now Mega Hulk.

[00:29:25] That's pretty...

[00:29:26] That's very different to what we've seen in the other universes.

[00:29:29] They have their own version of the Avengers, which don't contain any of the original members.

[00:29:34] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:29:35] And dare I say it, it's like not only does...

[00:29:38] He kind of becomes like Mega Stegosaurus Dinosaur Hulk as well because he's kind of got the ribs a lot, the plates down his spine and on his tail.

[00:29:49] He does.

[00:29:49] He does.

[00:29:50] He shoots green gamma rays from his mouth.

[00:29:54] Very Godzilla-like.

[00:29:54] Very Godzilla-like.

[00:29:55] Yeah.

[00:29:56] Yeah, that is massively different.

[00:29:57] Very different.

[00:30:05] Combination of Bruce and Hulk when he realizes he shouldn't hate the other guy in this show's premise.

[00:30:11] He is hating the Hulk at the beginning.

[00:30:13] And by the end, he's no longer that.

[00:30:15] He's no longer separated into Bruce being in control of the monster.

[00:30:20] The monster is now in control.

[00:30:21] Yes.

[00:30:21] It's 90% Hulk.

[00:30:23] Exactly.

[00:30:24] And Mega Hulk.

[00:30:25] And Mega Hulk.

[00:30:27] Apex Hulk.

[00:30:28] But at least he remembers his friends.

[00:30:29] So it's okay.

[00:30:30] Well, that closed up.

[00:30:31] I was surprised you could see him.

[00:30:32] I know.

[00:30:33] I just assumed that that was sort of Sam's tactics that he wasn't seen actually by Mega

[00:30:38] Hulk because he was so close to his eyeball.

[00:30:41] I mean, it's a new definition of eyeballing.

[00:30:44] Yeah.

[00:30:44] He was so out of focus that close up that all Mega Hulk could hear was Sam's voice and that

[00:30:50] was all he was thinking about.

[00:30:51] Okay.

[00:30:52] Soothing tones.

[00:30:53] Well, shouldn't he have to run around the side to shake into his ear though?

[00:30:56] Because like it's massive.

[00:30:58] I was literally, while I was watching it at 8 o'clock in the morning, I was, when I

[00:31:01] came out, I was putting my finger up one eye to see if I could see it.

[00:31:05] And that would be the entire size of Sam's body because he's that close to the eyeball.

[00:31:10] But I couldn't.

[00:31:11] Well, it's very difficult.

[00:31:12] It makes your eyes go wobbly.

[00:31:14] The only other thing that I think is a big change for the universe as well, because that's

[00:31:18] massive enough in itself for this universe to stand alone in the multiverse to be completely

[00:31:22] different to the rest.

[00:31:23] But the one big thing is right at the end, Hulk taking the Gamma Beasts off to their

[00:31:28] own island.

[00:31:29] I wonder what this could mean in the future.

[00:31:31] I wonder if this could be a springboard into something that might happen later on.

[00:31:35] Well, that is true.

[00:31:36] It would be like holiday island Marvel.

[00:31:39] Well, I wouldn't go on a holiday there.

[00:31:41] Dress skirts, sort of cocktails.

[00:31:43] No.

[00:31:43] Although he did build his own cocktail bar in the MCU.

[00:31:47] Yeah.

[00:31:47] But I don't think this Hulk is going to be very good with tools somehow.

[00:31:50] But the reason why I say it is because in the comic books, there's the more recent Secret

[00:31:55] Wars storyline where an entire planet is built out of other elements of the multiverse.

[00:31:59] And one of those areas is Planet Hulk, effectively, which is a place in battle world.

[00:32:05] This world made up of various different multiverses, which only has Hulks there.

[00:32:10] Now, in this case, it's Hulk and no criticism of the animators at all, but a thousand replicas

[00:32:16] of exactly the same Gamma beasts.

[00:32:17] They all look exactly the same, which, again, is not a callback to old animated styles.

[00:32:22] But it is just Hulk and all the rest.

[00:32:24] It's not Hulk and the Red Hulk and Hulk and loads of different versions and abomination.

[00:32:28] All those different Hulks all being in one place.

[00:32:30] It's Hulk leading a group of Gamma monsters.

[00:32:35] But I do wonder if maybe that's something that could happen.

[00:32:37] If the multiverse in the what if, if that all breaks apart and forms back together,

[00:32:41] will we just see an area where it is just full of Hulks by the end of the season?

[00:32:44] Well, Secret Wars is the kind of thing that we're saying it's going towards.

[00:32:49] In the movies, yeah.

[00:32:50] Yeah.

[00:32:51] So Battle, and I have been wishing that at least since sort of the first Doctor Strange

[00:32:56] and so on.

[00:32:57] We talked about incursions.

[00:32:58] And incursions and all that kind of stuff.

[00:33:01] So, yeah.

[00:33:02] Who knows?

[00:33:03] I mean, that would be quite good.

[00:33:04] You've got, yeah, Battleworld, the Hulks on an island.

[00:33:07] I mean, I was even wondering whether there was a World War Hulk element here whereby, you know,

[00:33:13] you've now got mega, super strong Apex Hulk that's so powerful.

[00:33:22] Has, you know, I mean, not only did he get more gamma radiation again from the nuclear blast

[00:33:29] blast after he had tried to separate his two forms.

[00:33:35] And so that's like third dose.

[00:33:38] I mean, like he literally snorted the Apex Hulk that he destroyed.

[00:33:44] Yeah.

[00:33:44] So it's kind of like another dosing of, I mean, this is like drug Hulk effectively

[00:33:51] snorting the powdered remains of his.

[00:33:55] That's how you get the Apex in there.

[00:33:56] Of his adversary.

[00:33:58] So like, you know, he should be like massively overpowered.

[00:34:01] It was only because of the soothing words of Sam.

[00:34:04] Yeah.

[00:34:04] That he kind of turned around and left.

[00:34:07] Yeah.

[00:34:07] But that could change.

[00:34:08] And I'm just always thinking of, you know, World War Hulk, which I thought was.

[00:34:14] It was really, really good.

[00:34:15] I enjoyed that.

[00:34:16] And I love the fact that you had Doctor Strange being the only person that could actually control

[00:34:22] the Hulk through the magic.

[00:34:24] Yeah.

[00:34:25] And whether, but also the Hulk sort of being so powerful.

[00:34:29] Yeah.

[00:34:30] And like you say, like the bigger they get, the more powerful they are.

[00:34:34] That notion of size matters, I guess, in terms of the power of the Hulk.

[00:34:38] Yeah.

[00:34:38] And so, you know, it was, I was wondering whether that might, you might see some kind

[00:34:43] of battle royale there.

[00:34:45] Yeah.

[00:34:45] And I think as the Watcher says at the beginning of the episode, big things come from small

[00:34:49] beginnings.

[00:34:49] So yeah.

[00:34:50] So similar to the Hulk starting out small and becoming this monster.

[00:34:53] Yeah.

[00:34:54] Exactly.

[00:34:54] Yeah.

[00:34:55] Yeah.

[00:34:55] But I think those are the major things that change this universe.

[00:34:58] In comparison to other parts of the multiverse.

[00:35:01] Other areas of the universe.

[00:35:02] But as with all the other seasons, it's really likely that these episodes will build to some

[00:35:06] form of end.

[00:35:07] Given this is the final season, I think everything that's going to be on screen throughout this

[00:35:10] season is going to play into that final episode.

[00:35:13] I have no idea how it's going to, but I would say as we have more episodes released, we'll

[00:35:19] see how this plays out.

[00:35:20] Yeah.

[00:35:21] Yeah.

[00:35:21] Definitely.

[00:35:22] Any notes, anything else from the episode we haven't mentioned, John, that you wanted

[00:35:25] to mention?

[00:35:25] The only notes I've got really, I think are like, again, the animation is top notch.

[00:35:32] Really good.

[00:35:34] As I said, I loved the sort of 80s Marvel cartoon inspiration at the start as well.

[00:35:40] And you kind of get that sense of era from them.

[00:35:43] Yeah.

[00:35:44] You know?

[00:35:44] Yeah.

[00:35:44] I'm pleased that Similu was in there as Shang-Chi.

[00:35:49] Yeah.

[00:35:49] As well as Oscar Isaacs as Mark Spector.

[00:35:53] I just kind of wish they had stood out a bit more, but ultimately this was Sam and

[00:35:57] Bruce's story.

[00:35:59] Yeah.

[00:36:00] You know?

[00:36:00] And of the new Avengers, it was Monica and Sam really were the main protagonists.

[00:36:05] So like, that's fine, but it's nice to see them in there, I think.

[00:36:10] It's just one of those things, like in the comics, when you've got a cross out between

[00:36:13] characters, you really want to see them interact with each other more.

[00:36:16] I'd love to see Oscar Isaac on screen with Similu in the future.

[00:36:20] Hopefully we will.

[00:36:20] Hopefully we'll see that in live action at some point in the future.

[00:36:23] But this was kind of a good grouping of people.

[00:36:25] I really liked the cast they got together.

[00:36:28] There was a massive cast.

[00:36:29] Most of the actors were pleasing their roles from the MCU characters that they played as

[00:36:32] well, which is great.

[00:36:33] There's not very many actors that play the characters differently.

[00:36:38] One for me that I really liked, and again, you've already mentioned the animation style,

[00:36:41] but one that I really liked was the way they did the first Gamma War.

[00:36:44] And it looked like the static panels from a comic book really well.

[00:36:48] Really, really different artwork that was used for that and the animation for the Go Avengers.

[00:36:53] Here is the Gamma War thing at the beginning and the rest of the What If episode.

[00:36:57] All three stood out as being very different styles of animation throughout.

[00:37:00] But I kind of love the idea of having the Avengers style of animation as they're going

[00:37:05] through the first Gamma War being this much more detailed animation for static panels than

[00:37:10] we have for the kind of computer animated version that we have in What If.

[00:37:14] Yeah.

[00:37:14] I thought that was cool.

[00:37:15] Yeah.

[00:37:15] So that just leaves us with one question, John.

[00:37:17] Do you defend season three, episode one, What If Hulk Fought the Mech Avengers?

[00:37:22] Where would we be putting this on the ratings, John?

[00:37:25] I do defend this just.

[00:37:28] I'd give this three snorting apexes out of five.

[00:37:33] I thought this was weird fun, to be honest.

[00:37:36] Slightly incomprehensible fun.

[00:37:38] As I said, we have Bruce Banner deploying himself in an atomic bomb.

[00:37:43] We have a Kaiju battle that ends up with Bruce Banner Kaiju snorting the remains of his enemy.

[00:37:52] I think it is a bit of a smorgasbord of just references.

[00:37:56] I'm like, you know, don't I say it?

[00:37:59] Like, I know the premise of What If, that's the original side of it, but like something just

[00:38:05] a bit more original.

[00:38:06] Right.

[00:38:06] But like, I get it.

[00:38:08] They're Godzillas, but like, just do it a different, like have them as humans rather than like these

[00:38:14] creatures.

[00:38:15] Like they did in World War Hulk to an extent, you know, bigger hulks, just bigger hulks

[00:38:20] rather than with scales and horns and, you know, stegosaurus plates going down the back.

[00:38:27] A little bit like Abomination though, and we've seen that as one of the hulks.

[00:38:30] I know, I know, I know, I know.

[00:38:31] But I just like, I just kind of like, just do something different.

[00:38:36] Okay.

[00:38:37] Like, you know, as I say, because otherwise it just becomes a Russian doll of animations.

[00:38:40] Like someone did it before Rick and Morty and they do it, but they do it in a funny, like

[00:38:45] that's the original way.

[00:38:47] Here, it's just like, I just feel like Rick and Morty did it better.

[00:38:50] Yeah.

[00:38:50] Like, no, I mean, that's, that's my problem with it, but I do think this one to anybody

[00:38:55] under the age of 12.

[00:38:57] But I do think this is enjoyable and weird fun.

[00:39:00] If you just kind of let go with the flow of the river, I think really, where it's going,

[00:39:06] I think is the thing that is why I would defend it because it is the first episode of a new

[00:39:12] series.

[00:39:13] Yeah.

[00:39:13] I think the overarching plot has always been really good in What If?

[00:39:20] along with the central episodic What If?

[00:39:23] premise.

[00:39:24] I just think here, I just find it very difficult to kind of connect with it because it just

[00:39:31] felt like plagiarism on an animation.

[00:39:35] And like, I've just seen it, maybe I, yeah.

[00:39:39] I think it's probably because you only watched that episode of Rick and Morty this week.

[00:39:42] You've seen it like six or seven years ago, which you did originally when it was released,

[00:39:45] but, or five or six years ago, which you did originally, but I think it's probably fresh

[00:39:48] in your mind that it was just done recently in a very different way, of course.

[00:39:53] But there were some good elements in here.

[00:39:55] I liked the Sam and Bruce moment.

[00:39:58] Me too.

[00:39:59] And I liked how that played out.

[00:40:03] But yeah, it's one of those things that I'm not entirely sure where this is coming from.

[00:40:08] And maybe by the end of it, I will understand where it's placed and why it's placed like

[00:40:14] this.

[00:40:14] And I'm hoping ultimately that it is, as you theorized, similar to Battleworld in the Secret

[00:40:22] War comics.

[00:40:23] That the Hulks in the Hulk Island will come back.

[00:40:26] Yeah.

[00:40:26] You know, there is a meaning here.

[00:40:28] I'm sure there is, for sure.

[00:40:31] So yeah.

[00:40:32] And I think that the placement of it, again, you know, we talked about that a bit at the

[00:40:36] start.

[00:40:37] Like, that's fine.

[00:40:39] I'm happy for it to be loose, free and loose.

[00:40:42] But I do think, given the standard that Marvel puts on itself, maybe the Watcher could have

[00:40:49] just said where it came in a bit better.

[00:40:52] Right.

[00:40:53] Right.

[00:40:53] Okay.

[00:40:53] Yep.

[00:40:53] Gotcha.

[00:40:54] Yep.

[00:40:55] But so yet three snorting Kaijus out of five.

[00:41:00] Derek, do you defend this episode of What If?

[00:41:03] It was fine.

[00:41:04] And I suppose to your point, what makes it interesting for me is I've always wanted What If to be just

[00:41:10] one off stories.

[00:41:10] And if this was, if the series so far, the previous two seasons have just been one off

[00:41:14] stories and this was another one of those one off stories, I would have gone, this is

[00:41:17] great.

[00:41:18] The Avengers in really good animation style, just like a Saturday morning cartoon I used

[00:41:22] to watch in the 80s.

[00:41:23] And interestingly, I think those cartoons that they're referencing at the start, they're

[00:41:27] actually from the 60s, but we saw them in the 80s.

[00:41:29] Yeah, exactly.

[00:41:30] Exactly.

[00:41:30] That's why I think of them.

[00:41:31] But I was, honestly, I was watching it with a bowl of cereal because it comes out at

[00:41:35] eight o'clock.

[00:41:35] I was watching it with a bowl of cereal and cup of coffee and going, this is fun, Saturday

[00:41:38] morning cartoon.

[00:41:39] Awesome.

[00:41:40] It's enjoyable, but overall kind of meaningless.

[00:41:45] And I kind of used to feel that about the What If comics.

[00:41:48] You'd pick them up, you'd read them.

[00:41:49] There's only a pound at the time when you're reading them or a euro at the time when you're

[00:41:53] reading them.

[00:41:53] So they're throwaway comics, an interesting little story with your characters, which is

[00:41:57] the real positives I give it.

[00:41:58] I love the team that they've assembled here for the Avengers.

[00:42:02] I thought that was quite cool.

[00:42:02] I thought it was really interesting.

[00:42:04] They did the static panels for the first game of war with our original Avengers characters.

[00:42:09] We didn't give them any screen time.

[00:42:10] We didn't get any voice work to the actors who played the major roles we saw through

[00:42:15] the last two seasons.

[00:42:16] It was all given to the brand new Avengers team led by Sam Wilson.

[00:42:20] I thought that was really interesting to do.

[00:42:22] So we're almost setting up a brand new leaping off point.

[00:42:25] The last two seasons really have been so concerned with Peggy Carter and Steve Rogers' romance

[00:42:31] and Doctor Strange's romance in many ways that this feels brand new.

[00:42:37] It feels like you're starting off a new phase of Marvel, which is kind of what you need.

[00:42:41] But knowing that they're going to squeeze this into an overarching story for the season

[00:42:46] gives me a little bit more pause on it.

[00:42:49] I enjoyed it.

[00:42:49] It was fun.

[00:42:50] It is a three out of five.

[00:42:51] It's not the best episode of What If so far.

[00:42:53] And I don't know how they're going to squeeze it into the story.

[00:42:55] So maybe as I get later on in the season, it will feel better going, oh, I know what

[00:42:59] they were trying to do.

[00:42:59] Agreed.

[00:43:00] Agreed.

[00:43:00] But I think the thing is, like, the episodic element of it, like, I don't have a problem

[00:43:06] with.

[00:43:08] But even episodic episodes can be absolutely fantastic.

[00:43:15] I mean, even like the 1602 one.

[00:43:17] You know that's a riff and a reference to the 1602 comic done by Neil Gaiman.

[00:43:22] Okay, great.

[00:43:23] It's not, in that sense, original.

[00:43:25] But they do play around with it.

[00:43:27] And it goes into the...

[00:43:29] Exactly.

[00:43:30] And it goes into, obviously, the overarching storyline of season two.

[00:43:35] Really, really good.

[00:43:36] This, to me, is, I think, because there's been so many releases of Godzilla, the element of

[00:43:41] Kaiju, Pacific Rim, Transformers.

[00:43:45] Like, this, to me, just seems like overused now.

[00:43:48] Right.

[00:43:48] And so it's not even that the episodic thing, as I say, weirdly fun.

[00:43:53] Yeah.

[00:43:54] But probably unintentionally by the writers.

[00:43:58] But, you know, that's my kind of issue with it, is that it's just really kind of the premise

[00:44:07] of Kaiju's mecha this, mecha that, mega this, mega that.

[00:44:12] Yeah.

[00:44:12] It's a little bit overused at the moment.

[00:44:14] And this is the reason why we don't subscribe to Crunchyroll, which is 600 animes of robots

[00:44:20] that gather together to form bigger robots to fight off monsters and other robots.

[00:44:24] That is basically the premise of 90% of animes.

[00:44:27] Right.

[00:44:28] This is obviously the reason why we don't subscribe to that, John, because you would have no interest

[00:44:31] in watching that many.

[00:44:32] Because I get those other references, not the most recent ones, not the ones that we've

[00:44:36] seen in movies.

[00:44:37] I get those old references to Voltron and to Battle of the Planets, shows that I absolutely

[00:44:41] loved when I was a kid that weren't connected to comic books and weren't connected to other

[00:44:44] shows.

[00:44:45] They're riffing on that.

[00:44:46] So that's why I felt much more like a Saturday morning cartoon to me, I guess.

[00:44:49] That I love, you know.

[00:44:51] But as I say, it's still, I think, I recommend just...

[00:44:55] Yeah, I defend it as well, but it's not up there right now.

[00:44:57] Maybe again, it will increase as the series goes on.

[00:45:00] But that's it.

[00:45:01] That's our discussion for the first episode of season three.

[00:45:04] We're looking forward to the next episode, though.

[00:45:06] But before we get there, we're going to go into our multiversal messages, our feedback

[00:45:10] for this episode.

[00:45:11] And first up, we have an email in from Coffee and Vodka who says,

[00:45:14] Greetings, fellow assembling defenders.

[00:45:16] Not going to lie, this was one damned at the title.

[00:45:19] Voltron and the Avengers versus Godzilla and the Kaiju crew.

[00:45:22] I mean, I love Pacific Rim, but who asked for this?

[00:45:25] I viewed it through the lens of a spoiled child getting the wrong super expensive toy

[00:45:29] on Christmas morning.

[00:45:30] I dutifully, dolefully watched it through completion, turned it off, and tossed it in

[00:45:35] the million dollar one watcher bin.

[00:45:37] Made to the same excellent standards as every other What If production, from voicing to animation

[00:45:41] to all the other usual professional kudos, but all spent on an entry as forgettable as

[00:45:46] it was unnecessary.

[00:45:47] The bestest of holidays to you all, though.

[00:45:50] Two flying ferocious fists, Hawaiian hidey holes, and disassembling deus ex machina's

[00:45:55] out of five peace and take care coffee and vodka.

[00:45:58] Thank you, coffee and vodka.

[00:45:59] You have succinctly, I think, put into words my feelings on this.

[00:46:05] But I would, I've elevated it to the three because I do think there's a bit of intrigue

[00:46:11] of what's going on.

[00:46:12] And actually, in the end, I found it fun because Kaiju, Godzilla, Mega, Apex, Hulk effectively

[00:46:23] snorts his enemy as his defeated enemy.

[00:46:26] And I thought, that is something I can get behind.

[00:46:29] That's something I was not expecting.

[00:46:31] And maybe, just maybe, if you're on drugs, this is a five out of five.

[00:46:34] Oh, dear.

[00:46:35] I think everything's a five out of five if you're on drugs.

[00:46:37] So, it's not a recommendation at all.

[00:46:39] Certainly not to taking drugs and watching the show.

[00:46:41] No, exactly.

[00:46:42] But thank you so much, coffee and vodka.

[00:46:43] And best of holiday wishes to you, too.

[00:46:45] Yes, indeed.

[00:46:46] Best of holiday wishes, coffee and vodka.

[00:46:49] And thank you so much for the feedback, not only for this episode of Votif, but for

[00:46:56] 2024 as well.

[00:46:57] Absolutely.

[00:46:57] Great stuff.

[00:46:58] Over on our Facebook multiversal group, we got some more multiversal messages.

[00:47:04] First up, from Heather Wallace, who says,

[00:47:06] I really like What If?

[00:47:08] Because you get to see relationships between characters that don't interact much in the MCU.

[00:47:13] The Sam Bruce friendship was bittersweet.

[00:47:16] We even got to see Sam's sister again on the family boat.

[00:47:20] I also really like how different art styles are incorporated.

[00:47:24] And the 80s cartoon style was the perfect setup for the Voltron-like reveal.

[00:47:28] The first series of What If?

[00:47:30] Started off with some small twists on well-known stories.

[00:47:33] And now they're going in whole new directions.

[00:47:35] I'm looking forward to the rest of the series.

[00:47:38] It's three sleeps until Christmas.

[00:47:40] And I wish our hosts, Derek, John and Chris, and all fellow Defenders, a joyous Christmas.

[00:47:45] Your podcast and camaraderie has honestly got me through some tough times.

[00:47:49] And I'm so happy to be a part of this community.

[00:47:52] Merry Christmas, everyone.

[00:47:55] Thank you so much, Heather, for those Christmas wishes.

[00:47:58] And I think, actually, you've drawn all the positives from this episode that I actually really liked as well.

[00:48:04] So thank you.

[00:48:06] And I'm glad that we have been here for you this year and beyond with our chit-chat about all these TV shows that we like to watch.

[00:48:17] Even the ones where maybe I'm a little skeptical on the episode.

[00:48:22] Absolutely.

[00:48:22] Thanks so much, Heather, for your thoughts.

[00:48:24] And thanks very much for your well wishes for Christmas.

[00:48:26] Straight back at you as well.

[00:48:27] Hope you have a lovely Christmas.

[00:48:29] We will be here tomorrow, hopefully, for the next episode of What If?

[00:48:32] When there'll be two sleeps till Christmas.

[00:48:34] Exactly.

[00:48:34] Exactly.

[00:48:35] And also on Facebook, Richard Blaze says,

[00:48:37] Godzilla meets Power Rangers.

[00:48:39] I fully bought into the madness.

[00:48:41] Loved it.

[00:48:42] Thanks for that, Richard.

[00:48:43] I'm glad you enjoyed it as well.

[00:48:44] Yeah, excellent, Richard.

[00:48:45] I think that's exactly right.

[00:48:47] Weird fun.

[00:48:48] It's the way to go into it, isn't it?

[00:48:49] Just embrace the madness and just enjoy it.

[00:48:51] Yes, definitely.

[00:48:53] Great stuff.

[00:48:53] Thanks, Richard.

[00:48:54] Thanks so much for that feedback.

[00:48:55] If you want to get your feedback in, you can email us to feedback at tvpodcastindustries.com

[00:49:00] or pop an hour to our Facebook group at facebook.com slash groups slash TV Podcast Industries.

[00:49:05] If you want to support the podcast, you can go to patreon.com slash TV Podcast Industries.

[00:49:10] Support us over there for any monthly events,

[00:49:12] just like our wonderful fellow defender, Litsi Laws, who is supporting us over there.

[00:49:16] And you can also support us with a one-off donation as well,

[00:49:20] if you so choose, over on buymeacoffee.com forward slash TVPI.

[00:49:26] But of course, the best support we can receive from our fellow defenders and fellow listeners

[00:49:32] is to join the podcast, share the podcast,

[00:49:36] because of course sharing the podcast is sharing the love.

[00:49:40] Love, absolutely.

[00:49:41] Thanks so much for joining us.

[00:49:42] We'll be back next time to chat about What If Season 3, Episode 2,

[00:49:46] What If Agatha Went to Hollywood.

[00:49:49] Agatha Harkness returns to Defenders TV Podcast or Defenders on TV Podcast Industries.

[00:49:55] Can't wait for that one.

[00:49:55] Yes, lovely stuff.

[00:49:57] Fellow Defenders, thank you for joining us for this first discussion of the third series of What If.

[00:50:04] Until tomorrow, remember, keep watching, keep listening, and of course, keep defending.

[00:50:11] Bye.

[00:50:11] Bye.

[00:50:13] Bye.