Punisher Episode 1 Review

The Punisher, season 1, episode 1, "3AM" Transcript

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[DEREK]This is Defenders TV Podcast, episode 122 about the Punisher, season 1, episode 1, 3AM.

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[DEREK]That was our new theme tune from Tri-Tachyon, thanks for that, guys.

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[DEREK]Welcome back, fellow Defenders.

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[DEREK]This is episode 122 of Defenders TV Podcast, and we're here to start our Punisher coverage with season one, episode one, 3AM.

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[DEREK]I say start, but if you are on our podcast feed over at defenderstvpodcast.com/itunes or any of the other podcast catchers, you've already heard my preview podcast, my spoiler-free preview podcast for this season.

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[JOHN]Yes, we did.

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[JOHN]There was a shocking revelation in that, I think, wasn't there?

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[DEREK]There was.

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[DEREK]I kind of watched ahead, something I've never done for any of the Defenders shows.

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[JOHN]We're still tied, bound, and gagged, yeah, from looking and watching ahead.

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[DEREK]Well, the whole point of Defenders TV Podcast is we do episode by episode coverage of these shows.

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[DEREK]Plus, Netflix were good enough to give us the first 13 episodes of the show, which is all episodes of the show.

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[DEREK]So I kind of watched ahead and thought, you know, it's a good idea at this point, watching this show, getting a bit of a head start on it, because I was really nervous coming into this one.

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[DEREK]Plus, we'll talk about the reasons why, and we'll talk about all of the episode as we go into it.

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[DEREK]This is a spoiler-filled podcast.

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[DEREK]Do not listen to this until you've watched the episode of the show.

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[DEREK]But I'm your host, Derek.

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[JOHN]Hi, I'm one of your other hosts, John.

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[CHRIS]And rounding out the group, I'm not the Punisher, but I am Chris Jones.

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[DEREK]Yes, he is Chris Jones, and he's Chris Jones in New York, Chris.

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[CHRIS]I am currently sitting in West 16th, between 7th Avenue and 8th Avenue.

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[DEREK]Don't give him the address, Chris.

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[CHRIS]That's not the address, it's just the road, it's fine.

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[CHRIS]Yes, I am the roving reporter for the first few episodes of this.

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[CHRIS]I am recording in New York.

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[CHRIS]I have yet to make it down to Hell's Kitchen.

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[CHRIS]Actually, no, I lie.

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[CHRIS]I was actually in Hell's Kitchen last night.

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[JOHN]Were you there with your billy clubs?

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[CHRIS]I wasn't.

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[JOHN]Swinging through the skyscrapers?

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[CHRIS]I wasn't.

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[CHRIS]I was sitting pensively on a rooftop with a glowing face, just looking out, slightly shadowed.

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[DEREK]I thought it'd be much more likely that you'd be down there drinking whiskey.

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[CHRIS]Yeah.

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[DEREK]So we can't take credit for sending Chris to Hell's Kitchen or to New York for the Defenders, but it is great that you're able to come and join us for the podcast, obviously, as we go, Chris.

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[DEREK]It's really cool.

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[DEREK]Let's get in to our spoiler-filled discussion about this episode.

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[DEREK]I don't want to hold back anymore.

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[DEREK]This show has been pushed a few times from release.

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[DEREK]It's only been about three weeks since we knew when these episodes were coming.

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[DEREK]So I think we can't hold off any more, really, can we?

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[CHRIS]But before we just get into that, over on our Facebook group at facebook.com for such groups for slash Defenders TV Podcast, I posited a theory when that I actually got right that since they're pushing the episodes, do we think it would come out on November 17th up against the one and only Justice League that Friday on a worldwide release?

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[CHRIS]And we were like, don't think so, maybe.

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[CHRIS]And I said it would.

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[CHRIS]And I got another one right.

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[CHRIS]In Defenders, I may not have got the idea of a massive hand coming out of a massive hole in the ground, but I did get this theory right.

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[CHRIS]But if you do like listening to random theories, not just on our podcast, but want to posit your own, make sure you come over to our Facebook group at facebook.com, four slash groups, four slash Defenders TV Podcast.

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[DEREK]Absolutely, yeah, we'll have our spoiler posts as usual for each of the episodes of Punisher, so you can watch it whatever way you want to and leave your thoughts about each of the episodes and discussion points for us to talk about on the podcast.

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[JOHN]And of course, all 13 episodes of The Punisher, as we release our reviews on Defenders TV Podcasts, will be available from Apple Podcasts, Google Play, or any other good or evil podcast catcher.

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[JOHN]Please go on over to our website, defenderstvpodcast.com, and go to our subscribe section there.

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[JOHN]And you can choose whatever podcast catcher you want to listen to us on.

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[JOHN]And whilst you're over there as well, you can also rate us or leave a review.

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[JOHN]The more we get, the more people that can find us.

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[JOHN]And of course, it helps our little old podcast.

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[JOHN]So I think with that, Derek, what are some of the episode details for 3AM?

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[DEREK]A brand new show runner has come along with a brand new show.

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[DEREK]We've got Steve Lightfoot as the full show runner for The Punisher.

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[DEREK]And as usual, he gets to write the first two episodes of his brand new show.

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[DEREK]Steve Lightfoot, we probably know from being a producer and writer over on Hannibal.

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[JOHN]Absolutely.

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[DEREK]Yeah, he wrote 20 episodes of that show.

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[DEREK]So an interesting guy to bring on board for The Punisher.

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[JOHN]Do you think there'll be blood?

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[JOHN]Do you think there might be gruesome blood given the Hannibal?

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[DEREK]Yeah, I think it's pretty likely that he's got a gruesome mindset to bring on board.

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[JOHN]Yeah, it's an interesting choice and probably one I think that might marry quite nicely into the show.

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[JOHN]One that probably, yes, doesn't shy away from the gore, but does it in a way that is probably quite realistic or classy, shall we say.

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[JOHN]Hannibal certainly had a lot of classy, bloody deaths.

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[DEREK]Certainly did, certainly did.

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[CHRIS]Classy, that's one way of putting it.

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[JOHN]Well, they had a cello stick coming out of his throat on one of them, so that was fairly classical music.

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[CHRIS]That's more magicive, less classy.

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[DEREK]Yeah, some very interesting ideas over on Hannibal.

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[DEREK]Hopefully he can bring them to the rest of the season over here.

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[JOHN]I suspect the Punisher will be a bit more direct with his acts of violence.

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[DEREK]Possibly, yeah, possibly.

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[DEREK]This episode was directed by Tom Shankland.

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[DEREK]One of the other good things that they're doing with all of the Defenders shows, they've been bringing on directors who've worked on the previous shows.

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[DEREK]Tom Shankland worked on Iron Fist.

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[DEREK]He did Rolling Thunder Dragon Punch, which was episode three.

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[DEREK]He did Luke Cage, Dwyck, my favorite named episode of that season of Luke Cage.

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[DEREK]And he also did three episodes of House of Cards, so a guy that's known over on the Netflix platform.

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[DEREK]Jon, do you want to tell us what they gave us with your synopsis for the episode?

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[JOHN]Sure.

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[JOHN]Six months after completing his punishment of the Kitchen Irish and the Dogs of Hell, Frank Castle is back in New York and taking out his anger on a building site.

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[JOHN]Living under his original name, Pete Castiglione, he spends his days trying to avoid forming friendships and his nights reliving his family's murder.

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[JOHN]At the same time, tenacious agent Diana Modini is transferred to New York's Homeland Security Office from Afghanistan after her investigation into a local police officer's death is squashed.

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[JOHN]But back in New York, she can't shake off her investigation and despite being warned away from the case, she enrolls her partner, Agent Sam Stein, to continue the investigation of the incident in Kandahar, involving the blacksmith and connected to Frank Castle.

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[JOHN]Meanwhile, at the building site, new worker Donny Chavez is desperate to make an impression and falls in with four other workers on the site, Lance, Paulie, Leo and Scut.

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[JOHN]When Scut gets injured in a work accident, the rest of the crew bring Donny into the team for a snatch and grab on the Gnucci crime family's weekly card game.

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[JOHN]But Donny messes up, exposing the group to the Nucci's and himself to the wrath of his work buddies.

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[JOHN]When Frank hears the gang attempting to kill Donny for his mistake, he stands up for the little guy, killing the group and taking out every member of the Gnucci card game.

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[JOHN]But, as Castle leaves the Gnucci murder scene, a watcher in waiting picks him out from a security footage.

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[JOHN]Welcome back, Frank.

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[DEREK]The familiar line for any comic book readers there.

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[DEREK]Welcome back, Frank.

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[DEREK]That's one of the awesome series from Punisher.

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[DEREK]Well known to comic book fans.

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[DEREK]So, I think we need to get into the episode details.

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[DEREK]Now, thanks for your synopsis, Jon, as always.

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[DEREK]Chris, let's start off the way we always do when we start a brand new series of Defenders.

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[DEREK]What is the think of the theme and opening credits for the show?

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[DEREK]This is something we're going to be seeing every time for the next 13 episodes.

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[DEREK]What do you think they kind of write?

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[CHRIS]So, music-wise, I really feel they've managed to hit the nail on the head amazingly.

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[CHRIS]And I'm going to use a lot of graphic imagery as I just make my descriptions off throughout these podcasts because I thought it would only fit in based on what it is.

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[CHRIS]So, taking the trailer, the trailer theme, they had the Metallica and what they managed to do was sync the gunshots to the drums and it was like...

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[DEREK]Yes, from Metallica 1, yeah.

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[CHRIS]Yeah, amazingly done, beautiful.

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[CHRIS]So, from that point, I knew this was going to be...

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[CHRIS]Music-wise, it was always going to be very interesting.

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[CHRIS]Similar to the way that we had Luke Cage.

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[CHRIS]Luke Cage was steeped in music.

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[CHRIS]This is going to be quite similar.

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[CHRIS]But it's going to be a different style of music.

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[CHRIS]It's going to be slightly country, not even country, folky.

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[CHRIS]Let's say folky with a very hard, heavy tone.

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[DEREK]I think what we see in this episode with Frank playing the guitar with his daughter at the start of this episode, I think that's kind of an indication that it needs to be kind of an acoustic style for the music.

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[DEREK]Music for the show was written by Tyler Bates, who's done soundtracks for loads of films.

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[DEREK]Most notably, probably, for this show, he's done John Wick, volume one and volume two, which is a similar type of character as we thought we were going to get with Frank Castle or we think we're going to get with the show.

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[DEREK]But he also did the soundtracks for Marvel for Guardians of the Galaxy, volume one and two, including that David Hasselhoff song, Chris, one of your favorites.

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[DEREK]And he's recently been collaborating with Marilyn Manson, which kind of has that metal side of things, probably a reason why he was picking up on something like Metallica for the show as well.

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[JOHN]Yeah, it's interesting.

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[JOHN]I must say the theme tune came as a surprise to me.

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[JOHN]I wasn't expecting it to have that kind of country, folksy edge to it, as you say, Chris.

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[JOHN]But I loved how it was really beefed up and made more rocky.

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[JOHN]So I really liked that and actually I find it really works.

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[JOHN]And I think, yeah, the opening credits as well.

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[JOHN]It just reminds me of Daredevil actually, to some extent.

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[JOHN]I like the gun imagery going into the skull just towards the end of the credits.

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[JOHN]I think that's really good.

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[JOHN]And I like the black and white association here.

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[JOHN]I think it works.

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[JOHN]Obviously, it mirrors his classic black and white costume from the comics with the black t-shirt and the white skull.

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[JOHN]So yeah, I really liked it, but certainly the opening theme came as a little bit of a surprise to me.

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[JOHN]I wasn't expecting them to go down that route.

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[JOHN]But then I've never really associated a type of music with the Punisher other than the sound of gunfire in that sense.

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[DEREK]What I did like about the theme, one I think they picked up really well on in the theme is the whistling that's going on in the background.

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[DEREK]That really does sound like an army force whistling together as they go on their march, kind of that really old school armed forces thing that you see in training and basic training in movies and TV shows.

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[DEREK]I think that was a really nice touch.

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[DEREK]Yeah, open credits I think worked really well for me.

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[DEREK]They're very simple, they're very plain, they're very straightforward, which is exactly what Frank Castle is.

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[DEREK]He's very simple, he's very plain, he's very straightforward about his attitude.

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[DEREK]So yeah, I think a really good touch.

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[CHRIS]Yeah, so on that note, guys, we've chatted about the theme, we've chatted about the opening credits.

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[CHRIS]Let's move over now to the main topic at hand.

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[CHRIS]Our top five points on the opening episode 3AM.

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[CHRIS]So for those of you who are just joining us on the podcast for the first time, just for the Punisher, welcome aboard.

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[CHRIS]You've joined us for an interesting show.

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[CHRIS]The way that we cover our shows on each episode is that we each take our top five points, we merge them together and we choose one, one consensus of top five.

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[CHRIS]So what we think that these are the, between the three of us are top five points.

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[CHRIS]We discuss those points and then at the end of the episode, we decide whether we defend or choose not to defend each of these episodes.

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[CHRIS]So on that note, gentlemen, let's do it.

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[CHRIS]We are here for The Punisher Season 1, Episode 1, 3AM.

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[CHRIS]Derek, would you like to take away our first point?

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[DEREK]Yes, yes.

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[DEREK]Point one, I think it's really important here.

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[DEREK]This is slightly tied into Daredevil.

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[DEREK]So it kind of finishes off the Punisher storyline from Daredevil.

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[DEREK]We have him still on his vengeance trip at the beginning of the episode, the cold open, I guess, you call it before the credits roll.

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[DEREK]Is Frank finally finishing off the final two members of the Dogs of Hell, who we've seen in Agents of SHIELD and we saw in Daredevil, and The Kitchen Irish, where he finishes the two of them off.

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[DEREK]What do you think of these seeds?

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[DEREK]The first one is where Frank takes the thousand yard shot from across the city of El Paso, taking out his final victim, who is being welcomed home after escaping from New York, but not from Frank Castle.

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[JOHN]Yeah, no, that's a funny moment.

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[JOHN]I mean, even just with the two guys as they're walking into that house or that club, I should say, where they're saying, he's not gonna get anywhere near us here because he doesn't need to be.

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[JOHN]And then it just pans back to, yeah, however thousands of meters he is as he's using his sniper skills.

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[JOHN]Yeah, I love that.

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[CHRIS]Yeah, I really have to say that I loved this thousand yard shot.

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[CHRIS]I didn't know where it was going.

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[DEREK]I know.

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[CHRIS]I was like, okay, they're gonna get, like we're gonna get a graphic love scene and Frank's gonna bust in.

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[CHRIS]And it was like, so he's not going to Mexico.

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[CHRIS]I don't get it.

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[CHRIS]And then you see this like pan back and it was just him then at the periscope.

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[CHRIS]Is that scope?

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[CHRIS]Scope, periscope, scope, excuse me.

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[CHRIS]And then we hear the click and nothing happens.

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[CHRIS]I'm like, what, what, what's going on?

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[CHRIS]And then you get that delay and it's just amazing.

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[CHRIS]The obviously computer generated pan back.

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[CHRIS]I just thought was, it was fantastic.

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[CHRIS]It was this, you're very, you're setting up at the very beginning that this man is an expert marksman.

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[CHRIS]He's well trained.

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[CHRIS]And then of course we move off to the bathroom killing.

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[DEREK]Which has its own hilarity in it.

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[DEREK]As the final member of the Hell's Kitchen gang is hearing his call out to go back to Dublin where he's running away from Hell's Kitchen as well because he doesn't want to be killed by the Punisher.

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[DEREK]He's hearing the call out, he's kind of saying that he's going to get a party when he gets home to Ireland from everybody welcoming him home, but he's never going to make it as Frank joins him in that cubicle.

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[JOHN]I actually found this even funnier than the 1,000 yard shot because to begin with, it sounded as though he was trying to squeeze out a really difficult number two.

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[JOHN]So with the guys in the bathroom, I thought it was more that they were going, oh gosh, you must have had a really bad curry or something like that.

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[JOHN]And then obviously it was that they could see the four feet at the bottom of the cubicle.

00:15:30.573 --> 00:15:32.873
[JOHN]I was like, okay lads, give it a rest.

00:15:32.893 --> 00:15:34.153
[JOHN]That was really funny.

00:15:34.773 --> 00:15:38.413
[JOHN]Just put the sounds coming out of there, it really sounded painful.

00:15:38.433 --> 00:15:40.093
[DEREK]Yeah, they did.

00:15:40.293 --> 00:15:51.273
[CHRIS]I was reminded of the Austin Powers scene and it was literally that, which is where, in that old film, Austin Powers is old now.

00:15:52.073 --> 00:15:53.493
[DEREK]God, he sounds like Tom Holland.

00:15:53.853 --> 00:15:54.513
[CHRIS]I know.

00:15:54.653 --> 00:15:58.653
[CHRIS]It's like, you know, back like, the Empire, that one.

00:15:58.993 --> 00:16:01.533
[CHRIS]I'm like, oh, now I feel old.

00:16:01.553 --> 00:16:03.053
[CHRIS]Anyway, back to my point.

00:16:04.333 --> 00:16:12.013
[CHRIS]In the Austin Powers, there is an assassin that kills someone by coming from behind the stall, a panel behind the stall.

00:16:12.013 --> 00:16:13.053
[CHRIS]That joke is made.

00:16:13.373 --> 00:16:14.453
[CHRIS]Buddy, we can do this.

00:16:14.473 --> 00:16:15.533
[CHRIS]We can be there together.

00:16:15.593 --> 00:16:17.993
[CHRIS]I was very much expecting something like that.

00:16:18.013 --> 00:16:19.413
[CHRIS]And I thought it was quite funny.

00:16:19.553 --> 00:16:21.633
[CHRIS]I think it was more because I knew that scene.

00:16:21.733 --> 00:16:22.233
[DEREK]Right, yeah.

00:16:22.313 --> 00:16:23.333
[JOHN]Yeah, definitely.

00:16:23.453 --> 00:16:28.653
[DEREK]But with the death of those two characters, that does put the end to the Punisher's punishment.

00:16:28.773 --> 00:16:36.833
[DEREK]And I like that we have Frank back in New York, now kind of going into the phase after being the Punisher.

00:16:36.853 --> 00:16:37.973
[DEREK]He's taken back his old name.

00:16:37.993 --> 00:16:39.713
[DEREK]He's become Pete Castiglione.

00:16:40.013 --> 00:16:42.973
[DEREK]So our point number two is the rehab of Pete Castiglione.

00:16:42.993 --> 00:16:50.233
[DEREK]So he, I don't know, he's not doing as well as he probably thought he was gonna be doing after taking vengeance on the people who killed his family.

00:16:50.613 --> 00:16:53.193
[JOHN]Yeah, I mean, this is really good, actually.

00:16:53.273 --> 00:16:58.973
[JOHN]I think, you know, it's that idea that he still has that loss.

00:16:58.993 --> 00:17:05.833
[JOHN]He's still having the nightmares and the flashbacks of his wife and children.

00:17:05.853 --> 00:17:12.053
[JOHN]You know, this vengeance hasn't led to him being able to move on.

00:17:12.073 --> 00:17:20.993
[JOHN]He's kind of taken this job effectively with a massive hammer, just destroying concrete walls.

00:17:21.293 --> 00:17:28.233
[JOHN]You know, again, it's the frustration, it's the pent up anger that he's able to release.

00:17:28.813 --> 00:17:32.333
[JOHN]In this job, but the vengeance has been done.

00:17:32.573 --> 00:17:43.893
[JOHN]It's been completed and he is still deep within himself emotionally and still unable to sort of reconcile the events that have happened.

00:17:44.193 --> 00:17:57.933
[JOHN]And I think as well, it's a really good look at how certain decisions, actions that you take ultimately may not result in freeing you from what you thought they would do in the end.

00:17:58.473 --> 00:18:00.653
[JOHN]I really enjoyed that.

00:18:00.853 --> 00:18:01.953
[JOHN]He's very silent.

00:18:01.973 --> 00:18:04.253
[JOHN]I think Donny Chavez says, you don't speak a lot.

00:18:04.273 --> 00:18:07.713
[JOHN]I think they share lunch up on the top of the building site.

00:18:07.713 --> 00:18:10.413
[DEREK]It doesn't say a word for most of this episode.

00:18:10.513 --> 00:18:11.053
[JOHN]Exactly.

00:18:11.073 --> 00:18:24.533
[JOHN]And you have that moment where he's trying to share part of his lunch with him and all this become, get some work friends and all that, Donny Chavez.

00:18:25.753 --> 00:18:31.793
[JOHN]And Frank's first thought is immediately to avoid that, to push that away.

00:18:31.813 --> 00:18:34.993
[JOHN]He says, I'm not here to make friends, basically.

00:18:35.093 --> 00:18:36.593
[JOHN]He's still within himself.

00:18:36.853 --> 00:18:39.853
[JOHN]He's very distrustful as well.

00:18:39.913 --> 00:18:41.333
[JOHN]So I like that.

00:18:41.353 --> 00:18:49.153
[JOHN]And I liked how that sort of fairly soberness of him working on that building site.

00:18:49.333 --> 00:18:56.873
[JOHN]Sort of, it does slightly contrast with the finishing off of The Kitchen Irish and The Dogs of Hell.

00:18:57.113 --> 00:19:04.673
[JOHN]You know, all that kind of slightly lighthearted approach to him finishing his job on the vengeance trail.

00:19:05.333 --> 00:19:11.593
[JOHN]Suddenly kind of like comes crashing down to him chipping away at that concrete wall.

00:19:11.673 --> 00:19:13.613
[JOHN]I suppose it's a bit of a metaphor.

00:19:14.173 --> 00:19:14.853
[DEREK]Well, absolutely.

00:19:14.873 --> 00:19:17.973
[DEREK]I think the opening segment of this does feel like comic book Punisher.

00:19:17.993 --> 00:19:21.933
[DEREK]It feels like Punisher going out on his mission to kill the people that he wants to take vengeance on.

00:19:22.193 --> 00:19:25.833
[DEREK]What I love about this scene is really he lost his family, he lost his children.

00:19:26.293 --> 00:19:28.173
[DEREK]Back in Daredevil, we saw that storyline.

00:19:28.633 --> 00:19:29.993
[DEREK]But now he's truly alone.

00:19:30.833 --> 00:19:38.833
[DEREK]For the last period of time that he's been killing off the kitchen Irish and killing off the dogs of hell, he's not been alone because he's been there with his vengeance.

00:19:38.893 --> 00:19:39.673
[DEREK]That's now gone.

00:19:39.693 --> 00:19:42.013
[DEREK]So where does that leave Pete Castiglione?

00:19:42.233 --> 00:19:43.133
[DEREK]Where does it leave him?

00:19:43.153 --> 00:19:43.953
[DEREK]How is he now?

00:19:44.273 --> 00:19:45.613
[DEREK]And he's not doing well, as you say.

00:19:45.773 --> 00:19:47.833
[DEREK]This thing here of him breaking down the wall.

00:19:47.853 --> 00:19:56.473
[DEREK]This was used for one of the trailers for the Punisher, if you remember, where they had the Punisher smashing into the ground with a sledgehammer, and that created the Punisher symbol on the ground.

00:19:56.633 --> 00:20:04.953
[DEREK]I remember even the person who did that scene, the stunt man who was working on it, saying after a day of doing that, his arms were shaking from the vibrations of it.

00:20:05.133 --> 00:20:12.493
[DEREK]And what we have here with Pete Castiglione in here knocking down the wall, he's doing it day and night, from 7AM to midnight some nights, into the middle of the morning.

00:20:12.693 --> 00:20:16.193
[DEREK]He's doing it every single day over and over again for months, it seems like.

00:20:16.213 --> 00:20:21.573
[DEREK]So this has taken a toll on him, but this is the only thing he's able to do to get his mind off what's going on.

00:20:21.593 --> 00:20:27.853
[DEREK]This repetition of he has a job to do and he goes and does it whenever he needs to get his mind off where he is in his life.

00:20:28.013 --> 00:20:33.293
[CHRIS]Yeah, from my own personal view, this rehab scene, I really enjoy it.

00:20:33.333 --> 00:20:43.713
[CHRIS]And I think they call it out very much with the young gentleman in the veterans group session, where he's like, we fought our war and we came back to nothing.

00:20:44.073 --> 00:20:52.353
[CHRIS]So what we're seeing here is Frank, Pete, he did his war, he got his war, he got his vengeance.

00:20:52.773 --> 00:20:57.133
[CHRIS]And now he's come back to nothing because he doesn't have his family.

00:20:57.393 --> 00:20:57.753
[DEREK]Yeah.

00:20:57.773 --> 00:20:59.513
[CHRIS]Like he doesn't have friends.

00:21:00.093 --> 00:21:06.493
[CHRIS]He does have a friend in the gentleman who's running the group session.

00:21:06.513 --> 00:21:07.193
[DEREK]Yes, Kurt.

00:21:07.853 --> 00:21:16.393
[CHRIS]Kurt, who is, we assume was one of his team members because he does say, Lieutenant, I would have been there with you.

00:21:16.813 --> 00:21:17.953
[CHRIS]So he does have a friend.

00:21:18.673 --> 00:21:23.413
[CHRIS]If like he says to Frank, he would have helped out, which is very interesting.

00:21:23.773 --> 00:21:24.033
[DEREK]Yeah.

00:21:24.233 --> 00:21:39.773
[CHRIS]The one thing I have to say, the writer here who's Steve Lightfoot, Lightfoot in name and Lightfoot by nature, I mean, if you follow what I mean is that these are some very deep, deep kind of emotional parts.

00:21:40.773 --> 00:21:59.333
[CHRIS]Basically, he's got PTSD and like he's seeing the imagery of his family, but then and having this very then in this very deep conversation in a group session, and then he'll make a joke about Kurt's one leg and kicking Frank's ass.

00:21:59.533 --> 00:21:59.813
[DEREK]Yeah.

00:22:00.213 --> 00:22:03.873
[CHRIS]And I found that just the position really, really good.

00:22:04.153 --> 00:22:06.553
[DEREK]Well, that works really well for these former soldiers.

00:22:06.633 --> 00:22:08.073
[DEREK]That is the kind of humor that they use.

00:22:08.093 --> 00:22:10.193
[DEREK]It's very gallows humor that they use with each other.

00:22:10.313 --> 00:22:22.813
[DEREK]What I do again, like about this part of the rehab for Frank is that while he's not in the sessions, he doesn't sit in the sessions, he sits outside the circle and is listening to some of the experiences these other former vets are going through.

00:22:22.833 --> 00:22:29.253
[DEREK]So while Frank won't let himself sit in a room and be analyzed by anybody, he will hear what other people are going through.

00:22:29.273 --> 00:22:36.293
[DEREK]So he probably takes some solace from what's going on with under Kurt, he's taking some experiences from other people and then just using them himself.

00:22:36.433 --> 00:22:41.933
[JOHN]Yeah, I like that treatment of Frank Castle, where he's stood outside the room.

00:22:42.413 --> 00:22:52.273
[JOHN]Because, I mean, as well for him, yeah, as you say, Chris, he's going through PTSD as much as any of the other people in that circle.

00:22:52.713 --> 00:23:05.333
[JOHN]Yet he's had his family taken away, which presumably was his hope whilst he was in Afghanistan and out in the field conducting the war, that he would come back to them.

00:23:05.613 --> 00:23:07.333
[JOHN]And then that's ripped away as well.

00:23:07.353 --> 00:23:19.333
[JOHN]So it's this double trauma for Frank of having been and fought in a conflict such as Afghanistan, as well as then having his family taken away.

00:23:19.553 --> 00:23:20.713
[JOHN]And I really liked that.

00:23:20.733 --> 00:23:38.573
[JOHN]And I really hope that this seems to be covering as much the veteran story of being in a conflict and how Frank fits into that as much as the Punisher and the stuff that he does.

00:23:38.593 --> 00:23:49.233
[JOHN]And I'm really intrigued by that because, I mean, we talked about PTSD for Iron Fist as well, but I don't think that really got pulled off by the showrunner at all.

00:23:49.253 --> 00:24:05.933
[JOHN]Whereas here, this already feels a really interesting look at the Punisher from a sort of military perspective and that kind of look at and story of military coming back from war.

00:24:06.053 --> 00:24:18.573
[JOHN]And as you say, Chris, that idea of being everything out there, believing that they're fighting for the country, but then the country back in America maybe is less supportive of what they were doing.

00:24:18.913 --> 00:24:21.453
[JOHN]It's almost like Vietnam as well, in a sense.

00:24:21.553 --> 00:24:40.953
[JOHN]So I think there's some really interesting connections here that are just starting to pop their heads out from behind the trench, so to speak, for the Punisher story and what maybe we get to see over the next 12 episodes as well and the themes that it brings in, definitely.

00:24:40.973 --> 00:24:41.913
[DEREK]Absolutely, absolutely.

00:24:42.053 --> 00:24:44.673
[CHRIS]Yeah, I'm really interested to see where they take this.

00:24:45.353 --> 00:24:59.233
[CHRIS]For the longest time, I had no idea how they were going to do a Punisher show about the Punisher when we saw his story slightly wrapped up in Daredevil, his origin story, if you will.

00:25:00.033 --> 00:25:04.853
[CHRIS]And I was like, but they've taken away the thing that he does, the reason he's the Punisher.

00:25:05.513 --> 00:25:19.793
[CHRIS]So I was very interested to see where they take this in terms of they're now taking into, he's a, they're rehabbing him as Pete Castiglione, but I want to see when will Frank Castle come back?

00:25:20.933 --> 00:25:23.473
[CHRIS]What causes Frank to come back?

00:25:24.373 --> 00:25:25.753
[CHRIS]What brings him out of the woodwork?

00:25:26.173 --> 00:25:29.413
[CHRIS]But we are episode one of 13 Down.

00:25:29.433 --> 00:25:34.193
[CHRIS]I am just speculating now, so I know it will come at some point.

00:25:35.093 --> 00:25:37.153
[CHRIS]But Derek, do you want to take us on to our next point?

00:25:37.173 --> 00:25:42.113
[CHRIS]Because otherwise I could sit here and talk about poor old Pete quite a lot.

00:25:42.433 --> 00:25:43.273
[DEREK]Yes, absolutely.

00:25:43.293 --> 00:25:45.313
[DEREK]I think it's one of the best moments in the episode.

00:25:45.773 --> 00:25:53.753
[DEREK]I think our next point is Donny's bad decision, which is kind of, I think this could have been the template for a lesser Punisher show.

00:25:53.833 --> 00:26:07.333
[DEREK]It really gave me vibes of The Incredible Hulk from the 70s, 80s TV shows where effectively Frank has come into town, he's taken a job, minding his own business, and without doing anything, he's suddenly falling into the situation for somebody else.

00:26:07.553 --> 00:26:10.293
[DEREK]And by using his special skills, he has to save the person.

00:26:10.313 --> 00:26:16.053
[DEREK]But we have Donny here, who's the new kid on the block, joining up with the builders effectively.

00:26:16.113 --> 00:26:19.313
[DEREK]And we see how desperate this kid is to find a friend.

00:26:19.493 --> 00:26:21.773
[DEREK]He seems to be going around to everybody going, please take me to lunch.

00:26:21.973 --> 00:26:23.433
[DEREK]Please involve me in your conversations.

00:26:23.453 --> 00:26:23.973
[DEREK]Come on, please.

00:26:24.133 --> 00:26:28.293
[DEREK]He's like a little puppy trying to be involved with everybody on the building site.

00:26:28.313 --> 00:26:29.313
[JOHN]He's a good networker.

00:26:29.473 --> 00:26:30.673
[DEREK]He's a good networker.

00:26:30.693 --> 00:26:31.793
[DEREK]That's a good way of putting it.

00:26:31.813 --> 00:26:36.153
[DEREK]But he just seems so nervous and so alone in himself.

00:26:36.173 --> 00:26:40.593
[DEREK]And he's looking for other people, whereas Frank is the kind of person that's completely stay back from everybody.

00:26:40.733 --> 00:26:46.653
[DEREK]But because of his needs to get close to people and need to be around people, he makes a terrible decision by hooking up with these other four guys.

00:26:46.753 --> 00:26:47.313
[JOHN]Definitely.

00:26:47.333 --> 00:26:50.613
[JOHN]I mean, I really felt the same way.

00:26:50.633 --> 00:26:54.753
[JOHN]It could have been this kind of mission of the week from Frank.

00:26:54.953 --> 00:27:01.133
[JOHN]And I mean, to an extent, I think this episode is that in its broadest possible sense.

00:27:01.473 --> 00:27:01.753
[DEREK]Yeah.

00:27:01.773 --> 00:27:10.513
[JOHN]You know, our point too being an exception, I think to that, which I hope that that runs through the rest of the series.

00:27:10.713 --> 00:27:14.473
[JOHN]But certainly, you know, it really could have been mission of the week.

00:27:14.593 --> 00:27:19.873
[JOHN]Which bad guys is the Punisher, is Frank Castle going to take out in each episode?

00:27:20.213 --> 00:27:32.393
[JOHN]But having said that, I think it's a nice introduction for the Punisher because that is also an element of his history in the comics in terms of the weekly or monthly issues of comics, you know?

00:27:32.413 --> 00:27:34.053
[JOHN]So I like that.

00:27:34.073 --> 00:27:39.133
[JOHN]I felt it more as an homage to that kind of storytelling as well.

00:27:39.873 --> 00:27:45.713
[JOHN]And I think, yeah, Donny is, it's an interesting character because he is, he's eager to find friends.

00:27:46.053 --> 00:27:50.393
[JOHN]And Frank Castle, Pete Castiglione isn't.

00:27:50.573 --> 00:27:51.533
[JOHN]He doesn't want that.

00:27:51.553 --> 00:27:52.853
[JOHN]He doesn't want that attention.

00:27:53.033 --> 00:27:54.133
[JOHN]Donny seeks it out.

00:27:54.333 --> 00:27:57.113
[JOHN]And in the end, he seeks out bad attention.

00:27:57.733 --> 00:28:07.813
[JOHN]You know, this is really where, you know, I mean, Scott, he would not want to necessarily become friends with a person called Scott.

00:28:07.873 --> 00:28:11.953
[JOHN]It sounds dark and dangerous to say at the very least.

00:28:12.333 --> 00:28:22.053
[JOHN]But yeah, he gets in with Scott, there's Lance, and this foursome of people who ultimately then, you know, have also done bad stuff.

00:28:22.073 --> 00:28:23.893
[JOHN]They're on the wrong side of the tracks, they owe money.

00:28:24.093 --> 00:28:37.573
[JOHN]And so in the end, they're having to do this, you know, grab and snatch this robbery of some very powerful, very dangerous people in the Gnucci family, this Italian crime family there in New York.

00:28:37.613 --> 00:28:53.753
[JOHN]And so I have to say, when he's taking all the money off the card table, I really enjoyed that whole scene because I thought like he had that, you know, deer caught in the headlights look with his eyes and he is fumbling around.

00:28:53.773 --> 00:28:57.773
[JOHN]And I was just there going, that would be exactly what happens to me.

00:28:57.933 --> 00:29:10.333
[JOHN]I would get the bag handles caught on the chair, I would drop my wallet, my ID would show and I would basically, because of the nerves and all this, I really kind of felt for him there.

00:29:10.353 --> 00:29:20.673
[JOHN]And then certainly when he goes back to the building site with the other guys and they just turn on him, that they have to finish him off and kill him.

00:29:20.733 --> 00:29:26.233
[JOHN]And I thought the turn in that character was really good.

00:29:26.253 --> 00:29:32.493
[JOHN]This kind of innocent naivety, trying to find friends, trying to fit in with the crowd.

00:29:32.893 --> 00:29:37.813
[JOHN]And then all of a sudden in doing so has put himself ultimately in great jeopardy.

00:29:38.453 --> 00:29:42.173
[JOHN]And him turning into this frightened kid.

00:29:42.193 --> 00:29:56.313
[JOHN]And I thought the way he, I thought actually the acting in the scene as he's kind of being dragged and how he's trying to stop them from killing him, the desperation in it, I thought he really got that down to a T here.

00:29:56.333 --> 00:29:58.093
[JOHN]I thought it was some really good acting.

00:29:58.333 --> 00:30:07.373
[JOHN]And I kind of enjoyed then obviously seeing Frank swoop in with his hammer.

00:30:07.773 --> 00:30:08.173
[DEREK]Absolutely.

00:30:08.193 --> 00:30:09.493
[DEREK]But this was the four guys' fault, right?

00:30:09.553 --> 00:30:15.713
[DEREK]You don't bring a kid like that on his first job into the Gnucci family and make him go around the table picking up all the money.

00:30:15.733 --> 00:30:20.013
[DEREK]You make him hold the gun while somebody else does that, someone competent who can get them out quickly.

00:30:20.233 --> 00:30:22.533
[DEREK]They keep telling him, come on, let's go, come on, let's go.

00:30:23.013 --> 00:30:24.193
[DEREK]Get more money, get more money.

00:30:24.193 --> 00:30:25.473
[DEREK]Come on, let's go, come on, let's go.

00:30:25.493 --> 00:30:26.613
[DEREK]Get more money, get more money.

00:30:26.873 --> 00:30:28.753
[DEREK]They keep getting wrong directions from everybody.

00:30:28.993 --> 00:30:30.813
[DEREK]That's what's making him fumble all the time.

00:30:30.953 --> 00:30:39.653
[DEREK]This isn't really his fault, but yeah, carrying your photo ID in the pocket of your jacket while you're walking around, probably not the greatest of choices either.

00:30:40.373 --> 00:30:47.733
[CHRIS]So Donny's mission at the end, as soon as you saw the shot of his wallet, I was like, oh.

00:30:48.213 --> 00:30:49.093
[DEREK]Stupid Donny.

00:30:49.173 --> 00:30:53.193
[CHRIS]It was just signposted a mile off.

00:30:53.233 --> 00:30:56.733
[CHRIS]And I was like, okay, I can see where they're gonna go with this.

00:30:57.453 --> 00:31:14.593
[CHRIS]I honestly believe up until that last two seconds where we see another character, that Jon mentioned in the synopsis, I honestly believed that this was going to be a procedural.

00:31:15.453 --> 00:31:21.853
[CHRIS]I was pretty sure, like Derek, you have watched slightly ahead, so I'm taking your word at it.

00:31:22.293 --> 00:31:27.393
[CHRIS]But if they had have gone down that route, I think it would have been a huge mistake.

00:31:27.973 --> 00:31:38.893
[CHRIS]Because I can see an incredible Hulk, a Castle version of Frank Castle, where he comes in, he writes the wrong, and there's just a larger thread to it.

00:31:39.053 --> 00:31:40.273
[CHRIS]It wouldn't have been bad.

00:31:40.833 --> 00:31:44.413
[DEREK]Absolutely, it's the 18th of the 80s, except he kills people.

00:31:44.433 --> 00:31:50.273
[DEREK]That's the way you absolutely could have done this show if it was done on any other time, any other year, and not on Netflix.

00:31:50.873 --> 00:31:56.953
[DEREK]It would have been a show where it's just Castle going around finding villains and killing them in the most brutal ways he can every week.

00:31:57.173 --> 00:31:58.413
[DEREK]There was a video game like that.

00:31:58.433 --> 00:32:00.433
[DEREK]I'm sure you remember that, Chris, the Punisher video game.

00:32:00.453 --> 00:32:01.833
[DEREK]That's exactly all that game was.

00:32:01.953 --> 00:32:03.373
[DEREK]It was just him killing loads of people.

00:32:03.833 --> 00:32:04.653
[DEREK]It would have been boring.

00:32:04.953 --> 00:32:06.453
[DEREK]And I'm glad they're not gonna do it that way.

00:32:06.613 --> 00:32:14.393
[DEREK]But I like this kind of nod to the possibility that this is what they could have done if they didn't have a good showrunner in charge.

00:32:14.593 --> 00:32:22.733
[CHRIS]My kind of thing in my head regarding this is, so the Punisher first made its appearance in what, Amazing Spider-Man?

00:32:23.053 --> 00:32:29.993
[CHRIS]129, which is 1974, I'm going in the top of my head.

00:32:30.193 --> 00:32:31.333
[CHRIS]I could be completely wrong.

00:32:31.353 --> 00:32:35.653
[CHRIS]If you're wrong, I will check it and get Derek to edit it in post-production.

00:32:35.673 --> 00:32:37.833
[DEREK]There was numbers and dates in there, Chris, and I wouldn't have gotten it.

00:32:37.913 --> 00:32:41.253
[CHRIS]Yeah, so he was going to be a minor second-string character, right?

00:32:42.313 --> 00:32:51.613
[CHRIS]He was always going to be, but then popularity kind of ended up shoehorning into the larger Marvel universe as a whole.

00:32:52.733 --> 00:32:53.833
[CHRIS]That's what it was going to be.

00:32:54.713 --> 00:33:00.053
[CHRIS]It's very much the same story for Punisher now in Netflix.

00:33:00.753 --> 00:33:06.353
[CHRIS]In my opinion, I don't think this character was going to be given his own show.

00:33:08.233 --> 00:33:16.713
[CHRIS]Basically, they saw the popularity and saw the amazing reception that the character got in Daredevil.

00:33:17.413 --> 00:33:23.713
[CHRIS]And they decided, okay, let's kind of jump on that and let's decide how we're going to move this.

00:33:24.213 --> 00:33:27.633
[CHRIS]So as you say, they could have made a show like that.

00:33:28.553 --> 00:33:35.073
[CHRIS]If it was on any other network at any other time at any other year, probably would have done Mission of the Week idea.

00:33:35.753 --> 00:33:36.833
[CHRIS]And do you know what?

00:33:37.033 --> 00:33:37.973
[CHRIS]We all would have watched it.

00:33:38.093 --> 00:33:41.733
[CHRIS]Well, we would have watched at least the first couple of episodes and maybe still.

00:33:41.773 --> 00:33:47.833
[CHRIS]The fact that they haven't, I'm very happy because the Donny storyline didn't click with me.

00:33:49.733 --> 00:33:55.713
[CHRIS]Because he was such a flawed character, in my opinion.

00:33:55.813 --> 00:33:59.713
[CHRIS]His character was very much one dimensional and it was a plot point.

00:34:00.473 --> 00:34:01.513
[CHRIS]That's what Donny was.

00:34:01.733 --> 00:34:03.113
[JOHN]Definitely, absolutely.

00:34:03.133 --> 00:34:09.433
[DEREK]It's certainly made there to bring people on board who haven't watched Punisher over on Daredevil or who didn't watch Daredevil at all.

00:34:09.653 --> 00:34:12.753
[DEREK]If you missed that, this is how to catch up really quickly.

00:34:12.993 --> 00:34:16.293
[DEREK]This is a guy, he doesn't just kill people, he kills the wrong sort of people.

00:34:16.313 --> 00:34:19.033
[DEREK]He kills the people that he knows are bad and have done bad things.

00:34:19.253 --> 00:34:22.553
[DEREK]I like the fact that it takes Frank a bit of time to step up.

00:34:22.893 --> 00:34:24.493
[DEREK]He hears that conversation with the kid.

00:34:24.533 --> 00:34:29.793
[DEREK]He hears the trouble the kid's in right from the start, but he doesn't go straight out there and start killing these guys.

00:34:29.973 --> 00:34:37.593
[DEREK]It's only when he hears these guys are gonna kill him, like they are going to actually destroy this child, or this kid, I'm now gonna step in.

00:34:37.613 --> 00:34:43.413
[DEREK]I have to step in, I can't in all good conscience stay away from this violence that's happening here.

00:34:43.413 --> 00:34:46.253
[DEREK]I like that they made that decision, but you're absolutely right, Chris.

00:34:46.273 --> 00:35:00.753
[DEREK]This is a very straightforward story for The Punisher, and I absolutely think there are some fans out there that wanted that show every week, where we'd be doing not the top five points, we'd be doing what are the top five Frank Castle kills in this episode, and that would be a terrible thing to do.

00:35:01.133 --> 00:35:02.573
[CHRIS]We can still do that if you want.

00:35:02.813 --> 00:35:04.493
[CHRIS]We can just embed it into the notes.

00:35:04.813 --> 00:35:05.273
[DEREK]I hope not.

00:35:05.793 --> 00:35:09.453
[CHRIS]No, so this is the fixation in my head at this point.

00:35:09.673 --> 00:35:16.573
[CHRIS]Oh, my father was in the Marine Corps too, which Donny says, so that makes the connection for Frank.

00:35:17.493 --> 00:35:24.593
[CHRIS]We never get a rationale as to why Donny does the heist, except for wanting to be liked.

00:35:25.113 --> 00:35:26.833
[CHRIS]Like he spent $300.

00:35:27.473 --> 00:35:36.873
[CHRIS]We know that was a bad idea, and you see the kind of slightly pained look on his face at the bar when he's given the $300, $400.

00:35:37.393 --> 00:35:38.493
[DEREK]Well, these guys are bullies.

00:35:38.573 --> 00:35:41.013
[DEREK]Like we realize that they bully him into joining.

00:35:41.033 --> 00:35:43.713
[DEREK]It's not that he wants to, not even that he maybe needs to.

00:35:43.733 --> 00:35:45.013
[DEREK]He lives with his grandmother, they say.

00:35:45.033 --> 00:35:46.793
[DEREK]He says he doesn't have much money of his own.

00:35:46.813 --> 00:35:50.833
[DEREK]Like he's there working on the building site because he can't find a job anywhere else.

00:35:51.093 --> 00:35:52.453
[DEREK]But he's bullied into it, definitely.

00:35:52.813 --> 00:36:02.793
[JOHN]And it's Donny's bad decision all the way through in that he's trying to get in with the crowd who really aren't treating him pretty good anyway.

00:36:02.993 --> 00:36:07.793
[JOHN]That he pays for $300 for the entire night at the bar.

00:36:08.013 --> 00:36:21.793
[JOHN]That he ultimately comes on to this sort of, this snatch and grab mission that they do to get money so that the other guy can effectively pay off his debts.

00:36:22.173 --> 00:36:43.993
[JOHN]So yeah, I mean, Donny's just got bad decisions littered, but I don't think he, I agree, he's not necessarily the best character at all, Chris, but I think he is the character for episode one, and I think episode one only, and we won't, we may not see him regularly through the rest of this show.

00:36:44.253 --> 00:37:05.153
[JOHN]I think this is just a one-off character, and it's a nod to this kind of storytelling that is associated with certain storylines of The Punisher, and I think it just eases people in to The Punisher and Frank Castle as we move forward.

00:37:05.933 --> 00:37:07.913
[JOHN]Or that's what I'm hoping, so yeah.

00:37:08.313 --> 00:37:19.293
[CHRIS]I think, look, it was an interesting overall, it's not gonna be Mission of the Week, Derek, we're trusting in you, if you are lying to us, we know The Punisher, we know where to send them.

00:37:19.313 --> 00:37:19.893
[DEREK]No spoilers.

00:37:20.533 --> 00:37:31.213
[CHRIS]Exactly, so let's move on to the actual part of the episode that really cocked my ear if I was a dog, it piqued my interest, if you will, the Homeland Security investigation.

00:37:31.313 --> 00:37:33.853
[JOHN]At least it cocks your ear and not your leg.

00:37:34.693 --> 00:37:50.073
[CHRIS]Exactly, we're introduced to the character of Dinah, now I will hold my hands up, I haven't had a time to see, is there a backstory in this character, is she a comic book equivalent, etc.

00:37:50.333 --> 00:37:52.753
[CHRIS]So I'll know more for the coming weeks.

00:37:52.873 --> 00:38:11.093
[CHRIS]Basically we're led to believe that she's been in Afghanistan, she had a partner, a country agent, who was part of the Afghani police force or something like that, task force, and he was killed in Kandahar.

00:38:12.633 --> 00:38:23.373
[CHRIS]We're given all the devices that you would expect for a show like this.

00:38:25.073 --> 00:38:31.233
[CHRIS]We are given the comedic, bumbling, sidekick partner.

00:38:32.153 --> 00:38:39.193
[CHRIS]We are given this, which I was happy about that, but it's still a bit of a trope.

00:38:40.473 --> 00:38:57.853
[CHRIS]We're given the strong, determined lead on a mission, and then we're given the boss who tells them to come in and go, you're going to give this up, you're not going to look after this, you're not going to go after and investigate this.

00:38:58.813 --> 00:38:59.673
[CHRIS]And they still do.

00:38:59.913 --> 00:39:22.233
[DEREK]I know, but I have to say, can I just mention about Wolf, her boss, I really think just the despicable moment when he says what he says to her, and she turns around and goes, okay, you've just been racist to sex, straight off the bat with me, that's the first thing I've heard you say, you're cutting me down to nothing and going, you're pretty, you tick all the boxes, that's the only reason you got the job here kind of thing.

00:39:22.373 --> 00:39:23.733
[DEREK]I do like that moment, Wolf.

00:39:23.753 --> 00:39:26.973
[DEREK]I think that's a really, it's a nice set up for the character.

00:39:27.433 --> 00:39:29.153
[DEREK]Again, this episode's all about set up.

00:39:29.173 --> 00:39:30.493
[DEREK]You do need to set the characters up.

00:39:30.513 --> 00:39:31.613
[DEREK]You need to know exactly who they are.

00:39:31.773 --> 00:39:36.033
[DEREK]And you're right, Chris, they paint with a very broad brush, so you know exactly where you are with these guys.

00:39:36.473 --> 00:39:39.493
[DEREK]What's really important here about though is Kandahar has come back.

00:39:39.773 --> 00:39:45.013
[DEREK]Kandahar is where everything happened that set off the Punisher in Daredevil season two.

00:39:45.033 --> 00:39:52.453
[DEREK]That's why he was on this killing mission to kill his former compatriot from the war.

00:39:52.473 --> 00:39:54.513
[DEREK]That's why the blacksmith was so heavily involved.

00:39:54.533 --> 00:39:56.233
[DEREK]That's why all his family were killed.

00:39:56.473 --> 00:39:58.153
[DEREK]So now we're bringing Kandahar back into it.

00:39:58.173 --> 00:40:02.193
[DEREK]So now we have a set up through other characters so we don't have to relive it through Frank.

00:40:02.653 --> 00:40:09.273
[DEREK]We're getting an idea that somebody else is on this investigation as well, which is why I really like these moments with Dinah.

00:40:09.533 --> 00:40:14.033
[JOHN]Yeah, I really want to Dinah as a character here.

00:40:14.353 --> 00:40:21.693
[JOHN]I'm really interested to see how this links in with Kandahar, with the death of this police officer.

00:40:22.253 --> 00:40:34.473
[JOHN]I really want to see how it connects in with Frank Castle and the heroin smuggling that ultimately led to the death of his wife and family as well.

00:40:34.653 --> 00:40:48.973
[JOHN]You know, it's really interesting that Frank, before the Punisher, is being investigated as potentially being involved in something rotten in Afghanistan, in the military.

00:40:49.213 --> 00:40:52.213
[JOHN]So I'm interested to see how that plays out.

00:40:52.233 --> 00:40:54.273
[JOHN]It is, it's really intriguing, I think.

00:40:54.553 --> 00:41:12.253
[JOHN]The other really nice point here is Diana's mother is played by the Iranian actress, and I'll probably not get this name right at all, Sohra Agadashlu, who also played the president in The Expanse, which I watched recently.

00:41:12.513 --> 00:41:17.093
[JOHN]And that has another former Punisher, Thomas Jane, in it as well.

00:41:18.233 --> 00:41:24.693
[JOHN]Yeah, I was really surprised to see her in this because of just having watched The Expanse.

00:41:24.933 --> 00:41:28.773
[JOHN]She's got a really interesting way in her speech pattern.

00:41:28.793 --> 00:41:30.853
[JOHN]I think it's really interesting.

00:41:32.533 --> 00:41:34.413
[DEREK]It sounds like she smokes about 200 a day.

00:41:34.433 --> 00:41:36.093
[DEREK]She's got this really gravelly voice.

00:41:36.733 --> 00:41:40.713
[DEREK]And she's got a very different turn of phrase because she's not a native English speaker.

00:41:40.913 --> 00:41:42.633
[DEREK]She's able to speak English really well, obviously.

00:41:42.653 --> 00:41:48.813
[DEREK]But I mean, the tone of voice that comes out when she says words, you can see why she plays a president on another TV show.

00:41:48.833 --> 00:41:52.193
[DEREK]She's got a really strong character, something very interesting about her.

00:41:52.393 --> 00:41:54.153
[DEREK]And I can't take my eyes off her in The Expanse.

00:41:54.173 --> 00:41:56.113
[DEREK]I think she's fabulous on that show.

00:41:56.413 --> 00:41:57.433
[DEREK]Really cool to see her over here.

00:41:57.453 --> 00:41:58.813
[JOHN]Yeah, definitely.

00:41:59.053 --> 00:42:05.733
[JOHN]And again, yes, a little Punisher connection back to the original film with Thomas Jane.

00:42:06.013 --> 00:42:07.133
[DEREK]Well, one of the films.

00:42:07.453 --> 00:42:08.473
[JOHN]Well, yeah, one of the films.

00:42:08.493 --> 00:42:09.213
[DEREK]The second one, wasn't it?

00:42:09.633 --> 00:42:15.513
[DEREK]Delph Lundgren was the original Punisher in the 80s, and then we had Thomas Jane, and then we had Ray Stevenson.

00:42:15.753 --> 00:42:16.093
[JOHN]Yes.

00:42:16.133 --> 00:42:16.413
[JOHN]Yes.

00:42:16.793 --> 00:42:17.593
[JOHN]Disaster.

00:42:18.573 --> 00:42:20.673
[CHRIS]Riddle me this, Derek, do we see more of her?

00:42:21.893 --> 00:42:24.773
[CHRIS]Or is she just a one-off character at the very beginning?

00:42:25.253 --> 00:42:27.953
[DEREK]Not until I ask questions like that, Chris, you're going to have to watch your head.

00:42:28.053 --> 00:42:31.333
[JOHN]Oh, my goodness, Derek, that's so harsh.

00:42:31.913 --> 00:42:33.113
[CHRIS]That is fair, that is fair.

00:42:33.293 --> 00:42:40.453
[CHRIS]So just on Shobby, I love her on recommendation by my other Cut 2 co-hosts.

00:42:41.113 --> 00:42:44.733
[CHRIS]I started watching The Expanse as well, so I finished season 1, and I love it.

00:42:45.053 --> 00:42:46.213
[CHRIS]Absolutely love it.

00:42:46.493 --> 00:42:58.753
[CHRIS]So I was lying here on the couch watching this episode, and as soon as I heard the voice before I even saw the actress, I was like, that's her, I know it, and it was brilliant.

00:42:58.773 --> 00:43:09.493
[CHRIS]The one bit I'm going to go back slightly, Jon, is the part, I actually should say Derek, you both mentioned this, the connection to the heroin smuggling around Frank.

00:43:10.313 --> 00:43:14.193
[CHRIS]I like that at the end because that makes it slightly different.

00:43:14.813 --> 00:43:22.953
[CHRIS]It's not just the trope of an agent trying to get vengeance or justice for her ex-partner.

00:43:23.273 --> 00:43:24.633
[CHRIS]Who died in a tragic way.

00:43:24.713 --> 00:43:27.573
[CHRIS]This is a deeper link.

00:43:27.893 --> 00:43:29.953
[CHRIS]And again, I understand what they're trying to do.

00:43:29.973 --> 00:43:36.193
[CHRIS]They're trying to set everything up for those people who do not or have not watched Daredevil Season 2.

00:43:36.853 --> 00:43:38.433
[CHRIS]I'm interested to see where this goes.

00:43:39.073 --> 00:43:40.993
[CHRIS]I thought this storyline was dead.

00:43:41.953 --> 00:43:46.913
[CHRIS]I very much thought that there's no further avenues.

00:43:47.153 --> 00:43:51.473
[CHRIS]As far as I'm aware, there's only probably 2 or 3 surviving members of this group.

00:43:52.373 --> 00:44:06.013
[CHRIS]But the line that we haven't mentioned, the one part where I think they're going to go, and I think is going to be more interesting, is when Frank is in the group counselling session, he's talking to his friend.

00:44:06.333 --> 00:44:08.893
[CHRIS]He goes, do you ever think about Afghanistan?

00:44:10.053 --> 00:44:13.433
[CHRIS]Do you ever think about what we did over there?

00:44:14.773 --> 00:44:16.433
[CHRIS]I could be completely wrong here.

00:44:16.713 --> 00:44:18.773
[CHRIS]I know due to the trailers, we get flashbacks.

00:44:19.673 --> 00:44:26.933
[CHRIS]I think what we're going to find out is the heroin smuggling was the tip of the iceberg.

00:44:27.733 --> 00:44:29.213
[CHRIS]I think that's what it's going to be.

00:44:29.613 --> 00:44:30.473
[JOHN]Yeah, I agree.

00:44:30.633 --> 00:44:34.673
[JOHN]I'm really interested to see where does this go?

00:44:34.773 --> 00:44:37.333
[JOHN]Is this, as you say, is it the tip of the iceberg?

00:44:37.553 --> 00:44:48.053
[JOHN]Was this work that he was doing in Afghanistan part of a bigger thing, a more secretive covert type of operation?

00:44:48.073 --> 00:44:51.133
[JOHN]It'll be really, really interesting to see.

00:44:51.493 --> 00:45:11.573
[JOHN]I like that idea because, again, this makes Frank more dubious as a character in that, is it a question of he's following orders, but how far does he go following those orders if he knows what the goal of the operation that he's involved in in Afghanistan is?

00:45:11.753 --> 00:45:18.573
[JOHN]So this really kind of throws light back on to Frank Castle with regards to his position as well.

00:45:18.733 --> 00:45:26.053
[JOHN]And I'm really interested to see how far and which way does that go in the upcoming episodes.

00:45:26.093 --> 00:45:27.593
[JOHN]It should be really interesting.

00:45:27.613 --> 00:45:28.073
[DEREK]Definitely.

00:45:28.093 --> 00:45:30.153
[DEREK]Definitely looking forward to more of that.

00:45:30.173 --> 00:45:33.293
[DEREK]Onto point number five, our final point of this discussion.

00:45:33.973 --> 00:45:40.593
[DEREK]It's really because this is what the Punisher is known for in the comic books is these type of setup situations, I suppose.

00:45:41.153 --> 00:45:43.753
[DEREK]So Frank really does some overkill here.

00:45:44.233 --> 00:45:57.313
[DEREK]So he finds that Donny is about to be killed and takes out the three guys that are the ones that are going to kill Donny and then goes back and kills all of the members of the Gannucci card game, gives all the money to Donny and sends him out of town.

00:45:57.653 --> 00:45:58.133
[DEREK]What do you think?

00:45:58.153 --> 00:46:03.893
[DEREK]Is this a bit too much of overkill or is this just Frank kind of ears perking up going, great, I have another gang to kill?

00:46:04.113 --> 00:46:06.213
[JOHN]Yeah, well, it's interesting, isn't it?

00:46:06.213 --> 00:46:20.353
[JOHN]Because for me, I'm kind of like going, okay, Scott, Lance and the rest of them, okay, they weren't particularly nice and so on, but they were still construction workers.

00:46:21.473 --> 00:46:33.913
[JOHN]I didn't really get a sense that they went any deeper into being bad guys, like being drug runners or human traffickers or members of crime, a crime family or gang.

00:46:34.173 --> 00:46:35.993
[DEREK]They definitely mentioned that that's not the first job.

00:46:36.013 --> 00:46:38.793
[DEREK]They're looking for another job to pay back money.

00:46:38.813 --> 00:46:43.493
[JOHN]Yeah, so they're kind of doing, you know, they're doing robberies and thefts and so on.

00:46:43.693 --> 00:46:47.513
[JOHN]And this one was more about so that he could pay his bill.

00:46:47.833 --> 00:46:50.173
[JOHN]So they're still construction workers.

00:46:50.253 --> 00:47:05.333
[JOHN]And then, okay, then you have, you know, level up, level up again, and you have the Gnucci crime family who are probably much more violent, but Frank actually doesn't distinguish between either of those.

00:47:05.353 --> 00:47:09.913
[JOHN]So I think this adds a really interesting dynamic to Frank.

00:47:09.993 --> 00:47:20.833
[JOHN]And another dimension is that to what point does he go, okay, you're doing something bad, but you're not a serial killer.

00:47:20.833 --> 00:47:25.533
[JOHN]You're not involved in drug trafficking, human trafficking.

00:47:25.773 --> 00:47:32.393
[JOHN]You're not into, you know, however many awful things you could do, at what point does he distinguish?

00:47:32.553 --> 00:47:37.613
[JOHN]You know, where does his stop button on vengeance happen?

00:47:38.293 --> 00:47:43.653
[JOHN]At this moment, it doesn't stop at construction workers who, yes, they're doing a bad thing.

00:47:43.893 --> 00:47:45.813
[JOHN]Yes, they were going to do a bad thing.

00:47:46.893 --> 00:47:52.153
[JOHN]But did they need to have multiple limbs broken, sledgehammers in the face?

00:47:52.153 --> 00:48:02.013
[JOHN]That made me want to turn away from the screen, just seeing that sledgehammer swing into their face and then obviously getting dumped into the concrete.

00:48:02.193 --> 00:48:03.333
[DEREK]Yeah, I know what you mean.

00:48:03.353 --> 00:48:10.153
[DEREK]These guys were so intent on killing Donny, though, I think they, in Punisher's mind, if he was going to save Donny's life, he had to kill them.

00:48:10.173 --> 00:48:10.993
[DEREK]That's the point.

00:48:11.213 --> 00:48:16.073
[DEREK]I think the surprise to me was that he went after all of the Genichi card game.

00:48:16.153 --> 00:48:25.013
[DEREK]Everybody that was still there tooling up to go after Donny, he went straight after them and killed every single one of them as well in a classic Punisher moment, I suppose.

00:48:25.493 --> 00:48:33.993
[DEREK]In the darkness, he comes out like the Vengeance Demon, taking out everybody in the room and then pulls one guy's gun into his own face, killing him.

00:48:34.913 --> 00:48:38.633
[JOHN]That was a pretty nice move in that sense.

00:48:39.053 --> 00:48:47.053
[CHRIS]Cinematography wise, the action was beautifully done, beautifully directed, beautifully choreographed.

00:48:47.373 --> 00:48:59.213
[CHRIS]The sledgehammer scene, the bone crunching sound effects, the slightly slow-mo, they slowed it down slightly as the sledgehammer impacts.

00:49:00.033 --> 00:49:01.673
[CHRIS]I had to rewind it to catch it.

00:49:02.293 --> 00:49:03.193
[DEREK]I couldn't rewind that.

00:49:03.273 --> 00:49:20.993
[CHRIS]This was about, again, showing people who have not seen Daredevil, what the Punisher is about, his over-the-top nature of how he deals with his punishment, his vengeance, his justice, his form of justice.

00:49:21.693 --> 00:49:35.473
[CHRIS]They also wanted to show that he's not just an excellent marksman, which we see at the beginning of the episode, that he is a war machine in his own right.

00:49:35.753 --> 00:49:36.973
[JOHN]He's a baffler.

00:49:37.233 --> 00:49:37.593
[CHRIS]Yes.

00:49:38.133 --> 00:49:38.833
[JOHN]A slugger.

00:49:39.373 --> 00:49:39.933
[CHRIS]If you will.

00:49:40.013 --> 00:49:43.333
[CHRIS]So he takes out the three members for trying to kill Donny.

00:49:43.933 --> 00:49:45.393
[CHRIS]Yes, he had to kind of do it.

00:49:45.893 --> 00:49:48.413
[CHRIS]I liked when he actually saves Donny.

00:49:49.433 --> 00:49:52.893
[CHRIS]He saves Donny and leaves him with the cash and says, get out of town, or leave town.

00:49:53.713 --> 00:49:54.413
[CHRIS]That was nice.

00:49:54.813 --> 00:49:56.253
[DEREK]Written in Johnny's blood, yeah.

00:49:56.653 --> 00:49:57.113
[CHRIS]Yeah.

00:49:57.653 --> 00:50:02.853
[CHRIS]The new G-Card players, when he takes them out, I actually thought he went in Guns of Blazing.

00:50:03.853 --> 00:50:08.973
[CHRIS]And it was only actually that when we discussed it just before going and recording this, that actually, no, he was right.

00:50:08.993 --> 00:50:09.513
[CHRIS]He didn't.

00:50:09.533 --> 00:50:14.493
[CHRIS]He slips and slides between them all with knives and makes them kill each other.

00:50:14.973 --> 00:50:17.193
[CHRIS]He kills some with the can, takes them out as well.

00:50:18.313 --> 00:50:27.373
[CHRIS]And then the only shot he fires is when he twists a guy's arm while and shoots him while he's still holding his own gun.

00:50:27.653 --> 00:50:29.773
[CHRIS]Which was, it was excellent.

00:50:30.713 --> 00:50:40.173
[CHRIS]It basically sets about how Frank will always side with the innocent and he will bring his own form of justice.

00:50:40.813 --> 00:50:43.073
[JOHN]And how compromising he is as well.

00:50:43.093 --> 00:50:43.393
[CHRIS]Yes.

00:50:43.413 --> 00:50:44.553
[CHRIS]I think that's it.

00:50:44.873 --> 00:50:53.933
[CHRIS]He is a, he's a trained soldier who when you give him a mission, when you give him a target, nothing stands in his way.

00:50:54.413 --> 00:50:55.493
[CHRIS]And we learned about this.

00:50:55.513 --> 00:51:04.393
[CHRIS]And again, I'm trying to put myself into the mindset of a viewer who hasn't watched Daredevil Season 2.

00:51:05.433 --> 00:51:08.073
[CHRIS]And that's what we are getting in a lot of this episode, I feel.

00:51:08.393 --> 00:51:11.673
[CHRIS]Because we've seen him for a large amount of episodes.

00:51:12.073 --> 00:51:14.393
[CHRIS]We know that he is uncompromising.

00:51:14.413 --> 00:51:18.493
[CHRIS]We know that he does not care about radial damage.

00:51:19.473 --> 00:51:24.613
[CHRIS]He will take out everything connected to an incident.

00:51:25.493 --> 00:51:27.793
[CHRIS]Methodically, he is very trained like that.

00:51:27.813 --> 00:51:28.613
[CHRIS]He's methodical.

00:51:28.853 --> 00:51:33.593
[CHRIS]He will take out each individual head of the Hydra, if you will.

00:51:34.813 --> 00:51:38.933
[JOHN]It's like his muscle memory kicks in and it's like all his army training.

00:51:40.613 --> 00:51:43.333
[JOHN]This suddenly becomes a campaign.

00:51:43.393 --> 00:51:45.293
[JOHN]It's a war in its own little way.

00:51:46.233 --> 00:51:49.753
[JOHN]And he's out to destroy the enemy of that moment.

00:51:50.093 --> 00:51:50.613
[CHRIS]Exactly.

00:51:50.633 --> 00:51:52.373
[CHRIS]That is actually a fantastic way of putting it.

00:51:52.513 --> 00:51:54.113
[CHRIS]Each mission is a war.

00:51:54.533 --> 00:51:56.493
[CHRIS]And then each war has its enemy.

00:51:56.673 --> 00:51:58.913
[CHRIS]And he has to single-handedly take them all.

00:51:59.053 --> 00:52:06.113
[DEREK]And I think it's important here that this is the first mission that we've seen Frank on outside of killing people involved in the death of his family.

00:52:06.133 --> 00:52:12.673
[DEREK]So while we have talked about him in Daredevil season 2 being completely uncompromising and killing everybody around us, this isn't that mission.

00:52:12.693 --> 00:52:17.793
[DEREK]This is to do with a kid he's only known for a couple of days who sidled up beside him at lunch and gave him a sandwich.

00:52:18.033 --> 00:52:25.073
[DEREK]So he's going to protect him, but not only protect him, he's going to kill everybody that's a threat to this kid and then get out of town or sorry, send the kid out of town.

00:52:25.393 --> 00:52:29.653
[DEREK]And that's quite, that is what I thought was interesting about this storyline.

00:52:29.773 --> 00:52:32.813
[DEREK]I didn't like the idea of having this mission of the week thing.

00:52:33.253 --> 00:52:36.313
[DEREK]What I thought was interesting about it is what it's saying about Frank.

00:52:36.613 --> 00:52:39.933
[DEREK]He is still completely uncompromising, even though this isn't his fight to have.

00:52:40.533 --> 00:52:41.773
[DEREK]He told the kid to get out of town.

00:52:41.793 --> 00:52:43.393
[DEREK]The Nucci's were never going to go after the kid.

00:52:43.413 --> 00:52:44.653
[DEREK]He's killed the other three guys.

00:52:44.673 --> 00:52:46.473
[DEREK]So they were never going to find them.

00:52:46.513 --> 00:52:50.073
[DEREK]But he's kind of going, well, while it matters, I might as well take out the Nucci's too.

00:52:50.173 --> 00:52:53.073
[JOHN]It's what did President Bush Jr.

00:52:53.133 --> 00:52:53.493
[JOHN]say?

00:52:53.873 --> 00:52:55.293
[JOHN]Shock and awe tactics.

00:52:55.393 --> 00:52:57.073
[JOHN]It is kind of that.

00:52:57.093 --> 00:53:00.733
[JOHN]And I think that comes back to his military training.

00:53:01.073 --> 00:53:22.773
[JOHN]And ultimately, that kind of PTSD element, both in terms of the loss of his family and his experience of war, were you're trying to relive that previous life as a soldier because that makes you feel comfortable.

00:53:22.953 --> 00:53:30.333
[JOHN]Or it's the moment where it gives you the ease within yourself because you knew what to do.

00:53:30.353 --> 00:53:33.313
[JOHN]It was all because of hours and hours of training.

00:53:33.333 --> 00:53:34.353
[JOHN]It came naturally.

00:53:34.353 --> 00:53:36.293
[JOHN]It felt comfortable, that kind of thing.

00:53:36.853 --> 00:53:42.313
[JOHN]So I wonder as well, there's that element to Frank's character.

00:53:42.473 --> 00:53:42.973
[DEREK]Absolutely.

00:53:42.993 --> 00:53:49.173
[CHRIS]Yeah, and I think the interesting thing, Jon, that you said is the Punisher is being unleashed.

00:53:49.373 --> 00:53:53.973
[CHRIS]He's, at this point now, basically all his training is kicked back in.

00:53:54.433 --> 00:53:55.853
[CHRIS]And I think that's the interesting part.

00:53:56.413 --> 00:54:01.053
[CHRIS]We've seen a character who's tried to turn his back on who he is.

00:54:01.133 --> 00:54:01.893
[CHRIS]He's a soldier.

00:54:01.913 --> 00:54:02.793
[CHRIS]He's a war machine.

00:54:03.153 --> 00:54:06.693
[CHRIS]He is that spirit of vengeance.

00:54:06.793 --> 00:54:07.773
[CHRIS]He is the Punisher.

00:54:09.013 --> 00:54:09.893
[CHRIS]We've seen that.

00:54:10.053 --> 00:54:12.913
[CHRIS]And he's been trying to, with the long hair and the beard, he's trying to hide it.

00:54:13.533 --> 00:54:15.833
[CHRIS]Now the devil has been unleashed.

00:54:15.913 --> 00:54:16.873
[CHRIS]And that is a great thing.

00:54:16.873 --> 00:54:18.433
[CHRIS]We're going into episode two now.

00:54:18.793 --> 00:54:23.653
[CHRIS]The Punisher is back after six months of being and hiding and pushing it all down.

00:54:23.813 --> 00:54:25.113
[CHRIS]The devil is out of the bottle.

00:54:26.093 --> 00:54:30.653
[DEREK]And just obviously for our fellow Defenders, yes, we do know that Spirit of Vengeance is Ghost Rider.

00:54:31.433 --> 00:54:33.113
[DEREK]We do know that it's a different Marvel character.

00:54:33.433 --> 00:54:36.433
[DEREK]A war machine is also another Marvel character.

00:54:36.453 --> 00:54:36.953
[DEREK]We do know that.

00:54:37.053 --> 00:54:39.093
[DEREK]They're just really good descriptions of the Punisher.

00:54:40.193 --> 00:54:45.253
[CHRIS]Also, Punisher has been the spirit of vengeance in some crossover one shots.

00:54:45.533 --> 00:54:46.713
[CHRIS]So, I will put that out there.

00:54:46.733 --> 00:54:48.713
[CHRIS]So, yes, he can be also Punisher.

00:54:48.733 --> 00:54:55.253
[CHRIS]He's obviously not Ghost Rider Punisher, but anyway, before anyone writes back to me with feedback going, well, you're wrong.

00:54:55.673 --> 00:55:02.353
[CHRIS]And he also has been, I think he is now or will be in upcoming arcs, a war machine as well.

00:55:02.813 --> 00:55:04.653
[JOHN]Well, upcoming, you can't.

00:55:05.773 --> 00:55:08.793
[JOHN]Sometime in the future, he will also be Dr.

00:55:12.733 --> 00:55:15.113
[JOHN]Strange and he will be Little Red Riding Hood.

00:55:15.693 --> 00:55:19.933
[CHRIS]Can you imagine the Eye of Agamotto on Frank Castle?

00:55:20.233 --> 00:55:29.893
[DEREK]No, I don't even have the patience to do the spells, to be honest, but there is just one tiny little point at the end of this, which is part of Frank protecting the innocent because he's under the watchful eye.

00:55:30.813 --> 00:55:31.613
[DEREK]Love this moment.

00:55:31.693 --> 00:55:32.613
[DEREK]Love this moment.

00:55:32.633 --> 00:55:33.993
[DEREK]We know exactly who this character is.

00:55:34.013 --> 00:55:38.773
[DEREK]I don't think we should spoil it if you haven't watched Episode 2, but we know who this character is.

00:55:39.153 --> 00:55:40.713
[DEREK]We know he's watching over Frank.

00:55:41.093 --> 00:55:47.473
[DEREK]I love the fact that he picks out Frank as he walks away from the new team rehearsing and calls out, Welcome back, Frank.

00:55:47.493 --> 00:55:52.953
[DEREK]He knows exactly who this character is, despite the beard, despite the long hair.

00:55:53.253 --> 00:55:54.153
[DEREK]He knows exactly who he is.

00:55:54.173 --> 00:55:54.953
[DEREK]It's quite interesting.

00:55:54.973 --> 00:55:56.533
[DEREK]I wonder connections between those two.

00:55:56.553 --> 00:55:57.513
[JOHN]And we know who that.

00:55:57.533 --> 00:55:59.913
[DEREK]I wonder who the connection is here.

00:56:00.553 --> 00:56:04.553
[JOHN]Well, we can postulate, speculate and ruminate micro.

00:56:04.993 --> 00:56:07.393
[DEREK]Or we can read IMDB and know that it's micro.

00:56:09.393 --> 00:56:10.113
[JOHN]We knew that.

00:56:10.313 --> 00:56:11.713
[CHRIS]It was in the subtitles again.

00:56:12.053 --> 00:56:13.273
[DEREK]Always is.

00:56:13.913 --> 00:56:15.553
[DEREK]That's the top five points of the episode.

00:56:15.593 --> 00:56:17.333
[DEREK]A couple of quick notes about the episode.

00:56:17.833 --> 00:56:22.633
[DEREK]One for me, you've already mentioned about Diana's mother, Jon obviously, but the other big player that's in this episode.

00:56:22.653 --> 00:56:24.473
[DEREK]For me, because I'm a kid of the 80s, C.

00:56:24.493 --> 00:56:28.073
[DEREK]Thomas Hale back in a big production is wonderful to see.

00:56:28.093 --> 00:56:28.233
[DEREK]C.

00:56:28.253 --> 00:56:33.393
[DEREK]Thomas Hale was a member of the Brat Pack from the 80s, along with Rob Lowe and all those.

00:56:33.693 --> 00:56:35.973
[DEREK]Emilio Estevez, Charlie Sheen, all those characters.

00:56:36.213 --> 00:56:43.153
[DEREK]His star kind of fell a lot faster than those other actors who went all the way through the 90s with great movies.

00:56:43.693 --> 00:56:45.693
[DEREK]He's been in productions on sci-fi.

00:56:45.713 --> 00:56:52.453
[DEREK]I think he owns one of the production companies who makes all those really cheap sci-fi knockoffs of really big budget films.

00:56:52.473 --> 00:56:58.913
[DEREK]So I've seen him in a few of those because, hey, I'll watch a lot of strange movies, but it's great to see him back in this show.

00:56:59.693 --> 00:57:07.013
[DEREK]My favorite film of his is Red Dawn, an 80s movie about kids who have to fight against an attacking force.

00:57:07.033 --> 00:57:09.333
[DEREK]They take up arms and become an army themselves.

00:57:09.353 --> 00:57:13.373
[DEREK]So a little bit of a connection there for Steve Thomas to this type of material.

00:57:13.393 --> 00:57:14.793
[DEREK]So quite cool to see him in there.

00:57:14.853 --> 00:57:15.993
[DEREK]Chris, do you have a note?

00:57:16.353 --> 00:57:17.893
[CHRIS]Yeah, where's Karen?

00:57:18.193 --> 00:57:22.133
[CHRIS]We know that she is a large player in this series.

00:57:22.453 --> 00:57:23.653
[CHRIS]She's been at the premiere.

00:57:24.953 --> 00:57:28.413
[CHRIS]She has a deep connection to...

00:57:28.593 --> 00:57:30.333
[CHRIS]Sorry, Karen hasn't been at the premiere.

00:57:30.533 --> 00:57:32.233
[CHRIS]Deborah and Wal have been at the premiere.

00:57:32.433 --> 00:57:35.753
[CHRIS]But we do know that Karen has quite a deep connection to the Punisher.

00:57:36.573 --> 00:57:39.933
[CHRIS]I'm assuming that she no longer has any contact with Frank.

00:57:40.513 --> 00:57:43.313
[CHRIS]Just based on the episode, he probably has gone full into hiding.

00:57:43.713 --> 00:57:57.493
[CHRIS]But I thought potentially, similar to the scene we got with when he went to the group scene, I was expecting her to have tried and constantly coaxed him into maybe a coffee or something so we get introduced to her.

00:57:58.113 --> 00:57:59.373
[CHRIS]It's just an interesting note.

00:57:59.453 --> 00:57:59.993
[CHRIS]Where is she?

00:58:01.033 --> 00:58:02.233
[CHRIS]She better come in episode 2.

00:58:03.033 --> 00:58:03.353
[DEREK]Okay.

00:58:04.213 --> 00:58:06.813
[DEREK]No, I'm not saying nothing.

00:58:07.013 --> 00:58:08.853
[DEREK]Other note for this episode.

00:58:08.933 --> 00:58:11.213
[DEREK]We have Bookwatch back again for this season.

00:58:11.233 --> 00:58:18.913
[DEREK]We had Bookwatch back in Luke Cage about various books that Luke Cage and the other characters were reading that were connected to the character of Luke Cage.

00:58:19.073 --> 00:58:20.653
[DEREK]Bookwatch has started up for the Punisher.

00:58:20.853 --> 00:58:27.493
[DEREK]Episode 1 here, he has the book that he brings back to Kurt that he's been reading to bide his time when he's not knocking down a wall with a sledgehammer.

00:58:27.733 --> 00:58:33.533
[DEREK]Books Moby Dick, obviously a very, very sledgehammer type connection to Frank Castle.

00:58:33.553 --> 00:58:36.053
[DEREK]He's been hunting his Moby Dick for so long.

00:58:36.073 --> 00:58:41.113
[DEREK]He's been trying to deal with the death of his family and hunting down every single person involved in that.

00:58:41.413 --> 00:58:42.853
[DEREK]Quite a specific.

00:58:42.913 --> 00:58:45.213
[DEREK]I think Bookwatch is on for this season.

00:58:45.233 --> 00:58:48.873
[DEREK]Let's see if we can pick out a book each episode that represents what's going on in the story.

00:58:49.013 --> 00:58:56.473
[CHRIS]Yeah, just a final note from myself here, which is on addendum to Derek C.

00:58:56.753 --> 00:59:02.173
[CHRIS]Thomas Howell playing the lead or the head of Homeland Security Division Wolf.

00:59:02.613 --> 00:59:12.273
[CHRIS]Strangely enough, he's not down on IMDB, which is quite an interesting one.

00:59:12.693 --> 00:59:25.593
[CHRIS]So I'm wondering now, typically, sometimes this happens for maybe just himself or his agent didn't update it yet, or maybe they're hiding something.

00:59:26.313 --> 00:59:34.713
[CHRIS]And this is sometimes done just as a way to misdirect people ahead of time so that they don't know that he was going to be in it.

00:59:35.493 --> 00:59:36.893
[CHRIS]And there's a reason for that.

00:59:36.913 --> 00:59:38.913
[CHRIS]He's a major player, etc, etc.

00:59:38.993 --> 00:59:40.373
[CHRIS]So let's see how that plans out.

00:59:40.733 --> 00:59:44.393
[DEREK]As I say, as a big 80s movie fan, it was a nice, pleasant surprise to see him in the show.

00:59:44.413 --> 00:59:47.113
[DEREK]I hadn't known he was going to be in the show in advance.

00:59:47.533 --> 00:59:59.973
[DEREK]Yeah, I think they have played this definitely in the past with, for example, Kingpin in season two of Daredevil, where he appeared without being in any credits before the show aired on the season.

00:59:59.993 --> 01:00:09.073
[DEREK]So yeah, there's been a lot of surprises in Marvel in the past, but it was definitely a pleasant surprise just to see him in the show doing something big as opposed to some sci-fi late night movies.

01:00:09.613 --> 01:00:10.413
[JOHN]Absolutely.

01:00:10.513 --> 01:00:15.133
[JOHN]But I think with that final note, we are on to our defend.

01:00:15.533 --> 01:00:23.933
[JOHN]So typically we will ask one another whether we defend the episode of the show that we're looking at.

01:00:23.933 --> 01:00:31.633
[JOHN]So for this, Derek, this first episode of The Punisher 3AM, do you defend this episode?

01:00:32.133 --> 01:00:33.553
[DEREK]I definitely defend this episode.

01:00:33.573 --> 01:00:49.013
[DEREK]And for one very specific reason, because the first episode of a show, if you remember back to Iron Fist, that first episode was the first time of all of the Defenders series that I didn't defend the first episode for a simple reason, which was that it didn't set up the rest of the series.

01:00:49.413 --> 01:00:54.733
[DEREK]It put an episode out there and just assumed that the audience were just going to click ahead and watch the next episode.

01:00:55.053 --> 01:00:56.553
[DEREK]This brings back Frank really well.

01:00:56.773 --> 01:00:57.873
[DEREK]It sets up who he is.

01:00:58.073 --> 01:01:00.573
[DEREK]It sets up the dynamic that he has with other characters around him.

01:01:01.673 --> 01:01:09.593
[DEREK]It sets up some intrigue for the rest of the season and it ends with a lovely cliffhanger, the perfect cliffhanger for you to go, oh, I'm watching episode two, I'm watching episode two.

01:01:09.693 --> 01:01:17.173
[DEREK]That's all I want from the opening episode to give us some interesting characters, give us some interesting ideas of what's going to happen and to set up a storyline for the future.

01:01:17.193 --> 01:01:19.893
[DEREK]And I think they did this really well in this first episode.

01:01:19.913 --> 01:01:23.873
[DEREK]So yes, I absolutely defend the first episode of The Punisher 3AM.

01:01:24.153 --> 01:01:26.833
[DEREK]Chris, do you defend this episode of The Punisher?

01:01:27.393 --> 01:01:28.353
[CHRIS]Guys, I'm on the fence.

01:01:29.473 --> 01:01:31.653
[CHRIS]I mean this in the nicest possible way.

01:01:32.113 --> 01:01:32.893
[DEREK]You like fences?

01:01:33.733 --> 01:01:34.173
[CHRIS]I do.

01:01:34.193 --> 01:01:35.113
[CHRIS]I love fences.

01:01:35.793 --> 01:01:36.873
[CHRIS]They're great borders.

01:01:40.153 --> 01:01:41.713
[CHRIS]So I'm a bit...

01:01:42.073 --> 01:01:42.693
[JOHN]On the fence?

01:01:43.213 --> 01:01:46.013
[CHRIS]Yeah, I'm a bit on the fence about this episode.

01:01:46.513 --> 01:01:49.913
[CHRIS]So essentially what they've done is, yes, they're reintroducing the character.

01:01:49.993 --> 01:01:50.633
[CHRIS]I get that.

01:01:51.693 --> 01:01:55.813
[CHRIS]But they've done it in such a way that it feels like a mission of the week procedural.

01:01:56.313 --> 01:02:00.093
[CHRIS]They've given the impression of that in this first episode.

01:02:00.393 --> 01:02:13.113
[CHRIS]So what you're going to get is a loss of people when, if episode 2, that changes the premise, then that's, you're going to get people going, well, this is not what I signed on for.

01:02:14.073 --> 01:02:26.673
[CHRIS]Whereas basically people like ourselves who know the character, know that this, know the Marvel Cinematic Netflix Universe, we know that that's not how they're going to play this.

01:02:27.173 --> 01:02:29.533
[CHRIS]We know this is not going to be a procedural mission of the week.

01:02:29.933 --> 01:02:31.773
[CHRIS]So that's one element.

01:02:32.033 --> 01:02:33.573
[CHRIS]A good element, Frank is back.

01:02:33.993 --> 01:02:43.653
[CHRIS]We're given this broken character again, and we're given a character on trying to get redemption, who's failing miserably, who's suffering from that.

01:02:43.873 --> 01:02:54.813
[CHRIS]Jon Bernthal's portrayal of Frank, and I haven't mentioned that actually in this whole episode, his portrayal is still as tortured, still as fantastic.

01:02:54.833 --> 01:02:57.633
[CHRIS]This is an Emmy, again, suggestion.

01:02:57.693 --> 01:03:00.113
[CHRIS]I will never remember him for The Walking Dead anymore.

01:03:00.253 --> 01:03:04.653
[CHRIS]I will forever remember him now as Frank Castle, as a stoic, tortured character.

01:03:05.313 --> 01:03:06.673
[CHRIS]So I love that.

01:03:06.993 --> 01:03:09.913
[CHRIS]My interest is piqued by Homeland Security.

01:03:10.533 --> 01:03:11.653
[CHRIS]Where are they going to go with that?

01:03:11.733 --> 01:03:13.173
[CHRIS]What is the introduction?

01:03:13.473 --> 01:03:16.493
[CHRIS]It's even more piqued by the fact that C.

01:03:16.513 --> 01:03:18.253
[CHRIS]Thomas Howell is not an IMDb.

01:03:19.353 --> 01:03:21.013
[CHRIS]So I really want to know why.

01:03:22.193 --> 01:03:22.553
[CHRIS]Yeah.

01:03:22.573 --> 01:03:23.433
[CHRIS]I'm going to wrap up.

01:03:23.873 --> 01:03:27.193
[CHRIS]And this is slightly one of the reasons I'm still on the fence.

01:03:27.613 --> 01:03:33.213
[CHRIS]We did not get your typical Episode 1 cliffhanger for Netflix.

01:03:34.213 --> 01:03:37.933
[CHRIS]We were given a beautiful ending action shots.

01:03:38.913 --> 01:03:41.573
[CHRIS]So we got the Punisher being the Punisher.

01:03:42.633 --> 01:03:48.833
[CHRIS]We're given someone clicking on a computer using a GATT recognition.

01:03:49.353 --> 01:03:52.353
[CHRIS]I thought it was GATE, but it was GATT.

01:03:52.633 --> 01:03:53.193
[DEREK]It is GATE.

01:03:53.793 --> 01:03:54.913
[DEREK]He's checking his walk.

01:03:55.213 --> 01:03:55.473
[CHRIS]Yeah.

01:03:55.493 --> 01:03:56.093
[CHRIS]So it was GATE.

01:03:56.733 --> 01:03:57.373
[CHRIS]Apologies.

01:03:57.373 --> 01:04:00.273
[CHRIS]I thought I said GATT and I was going to go, what the hell's a GATT?

01:04:00.293 --> 01:04:00.633
[CHRIS]But this...

01:04:00.813 --> 01:04:03.253
[CHRIS]So this setup did not make me go...

01:04:03.273 --> 01:04:06.493
[CHRIS]I was not...

01:04:07.373 --> 01:04:15.213
[CHRIS]As I have been in majority of episodes and seasons before, I was not like, I need to watch Episode 2.

01:04:15.613 --> 01:04:15.893
[DEREK]Well.

01:04:15.913 --> 01:04:17.373
[CHRIS]I need to know what happens next.

01:04:18.093 --> 01:04:18.453
[CHRIS]Yeah.

01:04:18.473 --> 01:04:19.073
[CHRIS]I don't know.

01:04:19.213 --> 01:04:20.133
[CHRIS]And guys, I'm really...

01:04:20.153 --> 01:04:20.893
[CHRIS]I'm sorry.

01:04:20.913 --> 01:04:22.553
[CHRIS]I don't like seeing the negative.

01:04:22.573 --> 01:04:25.793
[CHRIS]We always look for the positive in all of our episodes.

01:04:26.053 --> 01:04:27.813
[CHRIS]But for me, this is kind of like...

01:04:28.093 --> 01:04:29.073
[CHRIS]It felt me lukewarm.

01:04:29.593 --> 01:04:32.213
[CHRIS]I'm like, yeah, I could watch Episode 2 now.

01:04:32.573 --> 01:04:34.613
[CHRIS]Well, actually, I want to go to bed.

01:04:35.013 --> 01:04:37.493
[CHRIS]Whereas with Daredevil, I always...

01:04:37.513 --> 01:04:39.313
[CHRIS]It's just like, gimme, gimme, gimme, gimme.

01:04:39.333 --> 01:04:40.873
[CHRIS]I was like, okay, just one more.

01:04:40.893 --> 01:04:42.513
[CHRIS]And it was suddenly 4AM.

01:04:43.173 --> 01:04:44.113
[CHRIS]Like that's how...

01:04:44.133 --> 01:04:46.933
[CHRIS]When I do rewatches, I still was like, gimme, gimme, gimme, gimme.

01:04:47.113 --> 01:04:50.053
[DEREK]Well, I'm gonna have to push you, Chris, as the producer of the show.

01:04:50.093 --> 01:04:52.173
[DEREK]You do not have the option of I'm on the fence.

01:04:52.173 --> 01:04:53.973
[DEREK]It's either you defend or don't defend.

01:04:53.993 --> 01:04:54.853
[DEREK]We only have two options.

01:04:56.953 --> 01:04:59.373
[CHRIS]So right now, I do not defend.

01:05:02.413 --> 01:05:02.893
[CHRIS]Sorry.

01:05:03.533 --> 01:05:04.333
[JOHN]That's so funny.

01:05:04.593 --> 01:05:05.353
[DEREK]Interesting.

01:05:05.913 --> 01:05:10.773
[DEREK]Well, Jon, do you defend the first episode of The Punisher?

01:05:11.113 --> 01:05:14.853
[JOHN]I do defend this episode of The Punisher.

01:05:15.133 --> 01:05:15.453
[JOHN]Yes.

01:05:15.773 --> 01:05:21.013
[JOHN]I give this three flying molars after a sledgehammer to the face out of five.

01:05:21.253 --> 01:05:21.473
[JOHN]Ooh.

01:05:21.673 --> 01:05:21.993
[DEREK]Well.

01:05:22.273 --> 01:05:35.213
[JOHN]But I do defend it, but only just because I do kind of agree with a lot of what Chris has said about it seeming quite Mission of the Week, but I don't expect that to last.

01:05:35.593 --> 01:05:44.073
[JOHN]And I think in that sense, I do think it's a really nice nod to the comic stories that can be like that.

01:05:44.773 --> 01:05:58.193
[JOHN]Certainly from past comic stories, I think it ultimately helps people introduce Frank Castle back into the world, and especially people who maybe have never watched Daredevil.

01:05:58.313 --> 01:06:00.933
[JOHN]And I think every character needs that.

01:06:00.953 --> 01:06:04.433
[JOHN]I think, you know, we do a podcast on the Marvel Netflix shows.

01:06:04.633 --> 01:06:05.453
[JOHN]We know that.

01:06:05.453 --> 01:06:17.873
[JOHN]I wonder, Chris, whether the reason why it's not a bombshell for you is because we know Micro because that bombshell was left at the end of Daredevil season two.

01:06:18.213 --> 01:06:19.813
[JOHN]So you already know that.

01:06:19.833 --> 01:06:24.333
[JOHN]Whereas if that was the first time we were seeing it, you would be like, oh, wow, there's Micro.

01:06:24.373 --> 01:06:25.593
[DEREK]Who's that guy, Press Play?

01:06:27.433 --> 01:06:35.653
[JOHN]So I kind of I get your point on that, that it's not necessarily that kind of, oh, wow, what's going to happen next?

01:06:35.673 --> 01:06:36.633
[JOHN]Let's go on to the next one.

01:06:36.753 --> 01:06:40.153
[JOHN]But for other people, I think that could be.

01:06:40.633 --> 01:06:44.193
[JOHN]And I liked the fact that he was being followed by Micro.

01:06:44.213 --> 01:06:50.273
[JOHN]I thought that was a nice sort of creepy move from the show's part.

01:06:50.673 --> 01:06:54.673
[JOHN]I really liked the fact that they connected it back into Daredevil at the start.

01:06:54.773 --> 01:07:08.793
[JOHN]I really am definitely intrigued and piqued by the whole army veterans and their circle of trust and the PTSD element and how Frank fits into that.

01:07:09.173 --> 01:07:23.493
[JOHN]I'm also really intrigued by the Homeland Security and about Kandahar and about Frank's involvement in all of that in terms of the smuggling of heroin and whether there's any more of that.

01:07:23.953 --> 01:07:30.433
[JOHN]But I thought this was a solid introduction into The Punisher and I really enjoyed it for that.

01:07:30.613 --> 01:07:36.633
[JOHN]Yeah, so for me, I did enjoy it and that's why I do defend this episode for sure.

01:07:37.113 --> 01:07:48.713
[JOHN]I thought it was a nice introduction to Frank Castle just to reconnect with that character and I'm really intrigued to see his vengeance story, his classic origin has gone.

01:07:49.013 --> 01:07:52.553
[JOHN]What are we getting with this series of The Punisher?

01:07:52.573 --> 01:07:57.393
[JOHN]So I think that's what makes this episode really good for me.

01:07:57.433 --> 01:07:59.673
[DEREK]Bit of a mixed bag for the first episode of The Punisher.

01:07:59.693 --> 01:08:02.053
[DEREK]I guess we'll see how we continue on the episode.

01:08:02.653 --> 01:08:13.813
[DEREK]Please make sure you subscribe to the podcast over at defenderstvpodcast.com/itunes if you're an Apple user or go over to the website at defenderstvpodcast.com and choose any of the ways of subscribing to the podcast.

01:08:14.273 --> 01:08:19.013
[DEREK]If you want to send us your feedback at the moment, obviously we're recording ahead of time so we have no feedback for this episode.

01:08:19.213 --> 01:08:31.553
[DEREK]But if you want to send in your feedback, just email us at feedback at defenderstvpodcast.com or pop on over to our Facebook group at facebook.com/groups/defenderstv Podcast and find the spoiler post related to the episode you want to discuss.

01:08:31.773 --> 01:08:34.513
[DEREK]Pop in your notes on there and we'll discuss them in the next episode.

01:08:34.833 --> 01:08:35.593
[CHRIS]Yes, of course.

01:08:35.593 --> 01:08:42.393
[CHRIS]And you can also follow us over on Twitter at Defenderscast where we tweet all the latest news, some of our thoughts.

01:08:43.073 --> 01:08:44.673
[CHRIS]You'll always find one of us there.

01:08:45.013 --> 01:08:54.393
[CHRIS]Or why not run over to Apple Podcasts or Google Play Podcasts, Podcast Addict, subscribe, tell your friends.

01:08:55.353 --> 01:09:00.733
[CHRIS]We used to talk about grandmothers, but I think I'll shake things up until tell your granddad this season.

01:09:00.953 --> 01:09:09.473
[CHRIS]Why not tell your granddad about Defenders TV Podcast every episode and go, hey, granddad, these three Irish guys chatting about this.

01:09:09.713 --> 01:09:10.373
[JOHN]Absolutely.

01:09:10.393 --> 01:09:13.593
[JOHN]Like a Werther's Original, share the love with your granddad.

01:09:14.093 --> 01:09:14.753
[CHRIS]Exactly.

01:09:14.773 --> 01:09:22.753
[CHRIS]But don't forget, please write a review as well, because the more people that hear about us, the more people that know about us, the better.

01:09:23.473 --> 01:09:23.993
[DEREK]Absolutely.

01:09:24.133 --> 01:09:25.153
[DEREK]Thanks so much for joining us.

01:09:25.173 --> 01:09:27.773
[DEREK]I hope you're enjoying your watch of The Punisher and our podcast.

01:09:27.833 --> 01:09:36.973
[DEREK]We'll be back on Monday with our review of Episode 2, Two Dead Men, and we'll be back next Friday and every Friday from then on with our review of each of the episodes as we go through the series.

01:09:37.193 --> 01:09:38.153
[DEREK]Thanks so much for joining us.

01:09:38.273 --> 01:09:40.893
[CHRIS]Thank you so much, guys, and we'll speak to you next episode.

01:09:41.713 --> 01:09:43.133
[JOHN]Thanks so much for listening.

01:09:43.593 --> 01:09:45.133
[JOHN]We'll speak with you next time.

01:09:45.733 --> 01:09:46.333
[DEREK]What was that?

01:09:46.353 --> 01:09:47.633
[JOHN]I was trying to do my Punisher.

01:09:48.053 --> 01:09:51.073
[JOHN]I was trying to do my gruff Punisher.

01:09:51.093 --> 01:09:51.933
[DEREK]You're Jon Bernthal.

01:09:52.673 --> 01:09:53.053
[JOHN]Bye.