Echo Episode 5 Maya Review

[00:00:00] This is the Defenders Podcast on TV Podcast Industries and we're talking about the finale of Echo Season 1 Episode 5, Maya. It's a good thing you got here early. I didn't realize there'd be so many people. Oh, there always are. People come from all over for our Choctaw Nation powwows.

[00:00:18] Is that right? Yes. You're a necklace. It's American Sign Language. It says I love you. Oh, you sign? I try for my niece. Oh, I learned from my daughter. She's passed on now.

[00:00:35] So I've lost someone who I love. It's the kind of thing you never quite get over. Yeah, thank you. Yeah. I keep it up now for my granddaughter. Really? Yeah. Well, tell me about her. Welcome back, fellow Defenders, to the finale episode on the Defenders Podcast,

[00:01:10] where we are going to be talking all about Episode 5 from Season 1 of Echo, Maya. I am one of your hosts, John. I'm one of your other hosts, Derek. And rounding out this trio for this very

[00:01:22] special episode, I am Chris. Excellent stuff. Yes, we are into the end game of what happens in Echo. The start game of what happens in Daredevil Born Again. Well, that's true. Just in case you didn't get the chance to watch it because we will, of course,

[00:01:38] spoil everything that happens in this episode. There is a post-credits scene in this episode. I did notice on Disney Plus that the minute it comes up to the credits, it goes,

[00:01:46] do you want to skip the credits? And I didn't. But I wonder if that takes you directly to the scene or does it skip past the post-credits scene? So if you did that, make sure you watch the most credits. For sure. Yeah, definitely. Definitely. Mid-credits. Sorry, mid-credits,

[00:02:00] isn't it? I guess so. Yeah. It's credit-savvy. It's a good technique because it's Disney Plus, there's always the additional credits for all the other regions. But yes, we are going to be getting into our spoiler filled discussion of Episode 5 of Echo. Before we do, remember

[00:02:17] fellow Defenders to pop on over to our website at tvpodcastindustries.com where you can subscribe to the podcast if you're new to us, or you can check out all the other podcasts that we have done,

[00:02:30] including those over on the Defenders podcast, in particular the Marvel Netflix stuff around Daredevil seasons 1 to 3. So yes, you can listen back as you watch those on Disney Plus. We also love to get your thoughts, feedback and theories, observations, comments so you can send in

[00:02:51] emails to feedback at tvpodcastindustries.com or you can head on over to our Facebook group at facebook.com forward slash groups forward slash tvpodcastindustries. And without further ado, shall we get into our episode details for Episode 5 of Echo. Maya. Derek,

[00:03:12] who gave us what, when, how and why? Well of course Echo the character was created by David Mack and Joe Cosata. The head writer for this show is Marion Dare. The writers for this episode are

[00:03:22] Amy Rardon, Stephen P. Jullad, Alan Morton and Chantal M. Wells. We mentioned Stephen, Alan and Chantal in previous episodes but this is the first episode that Amy is a writer on. She is an executive producer on this show and previously worked on Jane

[00:03:35] the Virgin and The Charmed Reboot, interestingly. Interesting. Yeah, interesting. I didn't even know there was a Charmed Reboot. No, I think it came out 2018 to 2020 so it went for about three seasons. Okay. Yeah, so there you go. And the director for this episode once again is Sydney

[00:03:52] Freeland who directed four of the five episodes of Echo. Excellent stuff, yes. Maintaining her work as the director here for this season of Echo. Exactly. John, do you want to tell

[00:04:04] us what they gave us with your synopsis for Echo episode five, Maya? Sure. In a flashback to her childhood, Maya hits a woodpecker with a slingshot to lower reprimands Maya for hurting an innocent

[00:04:17] life and with her hands glowing heals the woodpecker. Later the two release it back into the wild. Having left Tamahar and on the road, Maya stops off at services unaware that back in

[00:04:29] Tamahar her family are in danger as Fisk plans retribution for her rejection of his offer to return to New York as his partner. In Tamahar, as the community gets ready for the Chokhtor Nation powwow, biscuits messages Maya that Chula and Bonnie are missing as she returns to Tamahar.

[00:04:49] She quickly visits Chula's home and is met by a vision of her mother, T'Loa. T'Loa tells her that she is the embodiment of their people's legacy and that this legacy will echo through her actions. The vision ends revealing Chula's Finnish garment. At the Chokhtor

[00:05:06] powwow festival, Maya locates Fisk who has kidnapped Chula and Bonnie and threatens to kill her entire family for betraying him. While biscuits incapacitates Fisk's men with a monster truck and Henry takes out Zane, Maya shares her Chokhtor powers with Chula and Bonnie who overpower Fisk's

[00:05:26] men. Using her powers, Maya takes Fisk to the memory of his father beating his mother in an effort to heal his trauma and help him let go of his anger. Returning to reality, an outraged

[00:05:38] Fisk demands to know what she did to him and leaves the festival before the police arrive. The next day, Maya joins her family at a eat-out at Chula's home while in a mid-credit scene,

[00:05:51] Fisk is on his airplane watching with interest a new story that talks about the lack of front runners in the New York Merrill elections and sparks an unexpected idea in the kingpin. Well, that's what I'm assuming anyway. That an idea is forming within the mind

[00:06:10] closely around the bullet hole area of Fisk's brain. Or the former bullet hole area, we'll talk about as the episode goes on. But yeah, do you think Fisk is born again potentially in this moment? I think so. Or in this episode at least.

[00:06:28] I think you might be thinking of some kind of rain as in R.E.I.G.N. Oh, very good. Very good. Yes. A bit of rain to come for Fisk, which will be very cool. But only if someone is born again. Who might that be?

[00:06:47] I don't know. Will it be the Iron Fist? Wait, actually, wait, rumor is there is apparently a new Iron Fist show in development at Marvel. Interesting. With Danny Rand to return. Ooh, but they're not in the Iron Fist. But he will not be the main... No, it could.

[00:07:10] Well yes, because Iron Fist is regenerators and takes over that mantle. Well, that'd be really interesting. And yeah, we did see at the end of the second season of Iron Fist if you did get there,

[00:07:20] the Cullinan wing was the Iron Fist and Danny Rand also had Iron Fist powers at the end of that season. And you could have too. Yeah, absolutely could if they decided to move on.

[00:07:30] But I don't know about any of these rumors at the moment because I think everybody's just going, it's not like everybody's now watching the shows for the first time and all of their theories are

[00:07:37] just the theories that they published six or seven years ago about how the shows would continue. And then they're saying, ooh, new rumors suggests when they were just their theories. Yeah. Back to the beginning. Well, if we don't guess an Iron Fist, we've always got Iron Fisk.

[00:07:48] We do have Iron Fisk, Iron Headed Fisk, I think. Exactly. But shall we get into our top five fight points for this final episode of Echo? First off, fight point number one, Maya already a crack shot. Yes.

[00:08:06] Yes, the flashback here at the beginning where we have Maya coming out of the shadows, coming out of the trees to take out the woodpecker that we've seen is very much connected to the Choctaw Nation. And she takes it out with a catapult just like Dennis the Manus.

[00:08:24] Yeah, absolutely. Toloe calls the woodpecker biskinic and that the woodpecker taps out messages or warnings. There was a symbol of warning effectively. Yeah, a crack shot at an early age. Again, in this immediate moment I was thinking, is this suggestive of the child that pulls the

[00:08:52] wings off a butterfly and hence, that's why her language is violence as we talked about in the previous episode. Or ultimately we do learn that she was just trying to be able to touch it. So she was trying to kind of scare it or something.

[00:09:11] Trying to see if she could hit it. Yeah, I guess. So it is definitely a child's thing. I remember this from being a kid. You know, will we try and see if we can break that not thinking what would happen after you break the thing?

[00:09:23] Yeah, or if we break it. Exactly. No, exactly. So probably in that wheelhouse but I think interestingly here with this flashback we see Toloe has this kind of power of healing as she uses it on the sort of knocked out woodpecker.

[00:09:45] Which is interesting because they aren't giving Echo a new power set, new ability. It's basically right at the end every superhero film, wait here's a new power you might need in the future which you're going to need in this.

[00:10:00] And it's interesting that it's told to us through the flashback isn't it? Because you'd understand there that Maya had known this from when she was a child that her mom was able to heal things.

[00:10:10] But this experience of having this connection to the ancestors over the course of these episodes of this time that she's been at home at Tamaha probably connects it much more to now understanding what that power was that she saw her mother use once when she was a child.

[00:10:23] Exactly, it's kind of it's that thing as a kid where something happens within the family and you don't think it's necessary special or different until you get context to it whenever that comes to you. Exactly.

[00:10:36] And in this case, I mean even we have heard that Maya's mom has been described as a healer and that has different connotations as well. Exactly. Whether it's a doctor or a shaman or something like that.

[00:10:53] But here we see that this is through the power coming through from the ancestors and the intrinsic link that T'Loa has with that. I do like as well that you suddenly get that jolt as she's doing this

[00:11:10] which takes Maya back to the car crash and you get that great aspect with the heart beats again as Maya hears her mother's heartbeat fade. And there's another heartbeat element in this episode which I think is really, really good. Absolutely.

[00:11:26] And so I think which we'll come to a bit later but I kind of like that sort of jolt back to this moment you know she's just seeing her mom healing and you see that in this crash she's unable to

[00:11:40] do that to herself because she's been knocked unconscious. Absolutely, there was a moment in that that I was wondering whether we'd see T'Loa reach over and bring Maya back to life before she died.

[00:11:52] I also thought that was the way they may have gone but as we mentioned last episode those are what you would expect to see in these flashbacks. You'd have that moment where our superhero gets created by a big moment in their past

[00:12:04] that they may not remember and it's being brought out here but last episode we mentioned that episode really even though it was cold T'Loa was actually about the moment of power that Tula had this episode here we're seeing T'Loa's power coming out as a healer.

[00:12:19] What Maya was young? Yeah for me the fact that they didn't go down that route which was the very paint by numbers origin. Exactly. I was sitting there going oh okay they didn't do it or maybe it's going to be this like right

[00:12:35] at the end of the fight midway through the fight scene at the end or something where there's a big massive moment it's going to flash back again and it will turn out that her mother did

[00:12:44] it or it will turn out that Maya had this power all along because she tried to heal her mum and type it like I was 100% expecting that so actually hats off that they didn't.

[00:12:58] I'm actually kind of proud it was the easier route it would have been easier route it was the more cliche route and they didn't touch it so I was like okay so where are they going

[00:13:09] with this so her mum now has healing powers is that's what's going to additionally move forward through and into Maya and how is he going to be used in the future to save like essentially

[00:13:24] her people to say like what is this culmination what are they building towards with this power set with these people with the things so yeah it was interesting. Yeah it's a great way to open the episodes you have those questions as you go into the

[00:13:38] opening credits also want to give a huge shout out once again to the subtitles people here specifically on those heartbeats as you as we thought we would be seeing T'Loa save Maya

[00:13:51] and then had two heartbeats going to one heart piece alone showing the death of T'Loa there I thought that was really good adding adding extra context with subtitles which they've done throughout the season and I think it's on purpose and that they're adding the context

[00:14:06] through subtitles so you should be watching it that way that's the optimal way to watch the show I think will we go on to point number two because it is intrinsically connected to this opening scene

[00:14:16] really. Yeah T'Loa the healer and I mean just to give some context here you know Maya is on the road and we see Fisk bumping into a Chula and we have biscuits sort of directing

[00:14:31] vendor vehicles and all that realizing Chula has not turned up yet and so we have Maya coming back to Tamahar I'd like the fact that we do get a Roxanne garage in here yes I always like it when

[00:14:48] you know these random sort of in a sense Roxanne's never been a massive organization but they've you know if it's a service station or a gas station they've always kind of chucked Roxanne on there you know the evil corporation and I particularly remember during

[00:15:04] the defender's era on Netflix that Roxanne was mentioned very often at that time definitely so I kind of like that but we have her coming back to Chula's house to try and and save Chula

[00:15:16] at least at this moment I don't think she knows or they don't think that Bonnie is missing the text from biscuits actually said Chula and Bonnie you haven't turned up yet yes that

[00:15:26] that's true yeah absolutely and so you know she goes in gun cocked uh into Chula's house I mean you just it sets up this um really great scene with Maya having this visit from her mother uh to Loa

[00:15:44] before we get to a mother there's one thing I want to call out okay she throws away the contact yes she does she does yeah I was like what why include that because essentially you gave her an ability

[00:15:58] now that Maya could have used going forward which is that she can essentially just see she gets a translation of ASL of what people are talking to her like that's just that's there

[00:16:09] it's tech now it's she should have just used maybe she was starting to get an irritated cornea as Dr Bob said in and the previous podcast yeah and it was either that or she didn't want to

[00:16:21] be tethered to having updates coming into her every week you know maybe she's probably tracking device and thinking maybe yeah she didn't have the docking station to charge it again and so I

[00:16:32] would just run out of juice I guess and no it's a definite decision to sever herself from this control that that kingpin had over her effectively this this change in her um I suppose

[00:16:46] you know the connection she talked about is with Fisk saying you don't even love me enough to learn ASL and he effectively washed over that with technology I think she's kind of going well

[00:16:56] you know what if nobody's gonna learn ASL I don't care what they're saying basically yeah so I wonder if it was something like that but I did expect to see Fisk on the other side

[00:17:06] of that door as as Maya walked into the house where they're going I did not expect to have this visitation from from T'Lila I thought that was a really great choice given that throughout the

[00:17:16] series we actually see the ancestors connecting with Maya um through these visions they're not just her seeing bits of their past she's hearing them call to her so her mother is actually visiting her here actually having a discussion with her and talking to her about her ancestors

[00:17:32] which I thought was really appropriate for the show worked really well for her for this absolutely and even just having the kind of the sort of the different elements that these ancestors

[00:17:42] bring as well that will help her um you know as T'Lila says you're not alone and and these these gifts will echo through through her and as they did through her mom and you know

[00:17:57] through her ancestors previously yeah you know and which we've seen in those openings you know we we saw Loac seeing Shaffer we saw T'Loa seeing Loac so uh you know we have Shaffer representing

[00:18:11] ferocity Loac strategy T'Loa cunning and then T'Loa is love you know um and to bring all these elements together you know um so this was really great all that context sort of being

[00:18:28] provided here as to how they echo through what they bring to um to to Maya yeah and the way that T'Loa says to her these are your gifts these are the gifts that you're getting from your

[00:18:41] ancestors um and importantly it's also tying back to what has been the creation of Maya as the villainous character as the hench person for for kingpin or as the new queenpin it's all stemming

[00:18:55] from the death of her mother the pain that that caused the separation that it caused from her from her family and uh T'Loa is taking this opportunity to going you've been lost you've

[00:19:05] had this pain being in control of everything that you've been doing for the last 20 odd years since you left Tamaha um let it go it's time to put that in the past where it belongs

[00:19:17] and you're not alone even though I'm gone your father's gone yeah you've separated up from from kingpin you're not alone you have your ancestors behind you and we will always be

[00:19:28] there with you I thought that was a really good moment to have uh to have her brought back in a guest to the fold yeah definitely because this echoes really through the decisions that Maya makes

[00:19:39] throughout the rest of the episode the decisions that who she's going to be and how she'll use these powers so I think it's a really important moment to have this uh with her mother

[00:19:47] talking her away from her pain and then also revealing her superhero outfit we were kind of right last week that's uh that um that was being made for her by T'Loa yeah but we have

[00:20:01] Maya's new outfit which looks cool it does it's very old school it is very appropriate to the culture um it doesn't look very bulletproof or anything like that but I'm assuming a certain

[00:20:16] tailor's in New York can probably add some titanium weave to it and maybe it'll be fine well that's it and it's it's the symbolism of it as well because I think is it T'Loa says how

[00:20:28] you know each seam represents sort of their ancestors the ancestors so um and they you know it's what Maya ultimately was um when she goes to the pow wow and there so I think if we move on to

[00:20:46] fight point number three the pow wow showdown yeah and uh loved this opening scene as we have the music and we have the entrance of uh of the the group coming into the pow wow and Maya's in

[00:21:00] the center of them all wearing this uh this outfit that she's just been gifted from her ancestors from her mom from uh from made by T'Loa um it's really cool and just as we as again the use the

[00:21:12] use of sound throughout the series works so well as you see the sound dropping out from the music that's being played only to the the baseline drum and then you see Maya is aligning with that um

[00:21:23] as she focuses and it's only at that point that she sees the woodpecker once again this representation of danger guiding her to where uh T'Loa and Bonnie are being held by Fisk you know it's aligning with her ancestors aligning with her history and her people gives her all

[00:21:40] access to these powers is what it seems like from that scene and just represented so well I loved how it was done you know that synchronizing of the heartbeat of Maya's heartbeat with the

[00:21:50] drum beats that kind of rhythm and you see with the stepping and that she's doing to the rhythm of the the drum as well I just thought it was like fantastic and you know this is to help her

[00:22:03] actually infiltrate this power out because all of Fisk's men are on the lookout for her and this is where Fisk has decided that you know the the battleground is going to be here in terms of this

[00:22:17] retribution yeah we've got Zane here um sort of basically you know in biscuits around Vendekar parking and you know there's a couple of vans filled with heavies and their guns and at the center of it

[00:22:33] there this this fantastic spectacle of dress and rhythm music and the music throughout this I thought you know the the the ceremonial music as much as then the likes of Samantha Crane's vocals yeah playing through this episode was really really cool it felt really

[00:22:57] um great to me it really added again that on another underlying sense of emotion to it all but um I like this you know you have this introduction to the power out and you know

[00:23:14] I'm just gonna say it there as well power out I forgot about this word power out it's one of the few words maybe from Native American language that has been adopted and permeated into

[00:23:29] um sort of at least the English language because I always remember my dad's kind of saying well we're gonna have a family power out yeah you know uh it's just really weird and I kind of

[00:23:39] forgotten that you know um and yeah such a great word anyway isn't that sure it feels it's and sounds as to what it is yeah you know it's really good I really like it yeah it's the

[00:23:54] it's the community get together effectively where everybody can come and join and and experience the culture as well it feels togetherness in words you know it's really good and one of the

[00:24:05] things I did really like about it was the way they brought in Zane in his campervan um because we mentioned earlier on in the season Zane being a weltsman uh in in North America here he really

[00:24:16] seemed like a tourist not specifically welts but really felt like a tourist arriving at this uh at this community event you see him with the tamaha I love tamaha kind of heart on his hedge you know but again massively rude because it's uh because it's Zane telling Biscuits

[00:24:32] he's going to be barking in the uh in the um the vendor spot I don't care what you say to me kind of thing yeah whatever thumbs up as he just drives on to this parking spot and he even says he's not

[00:24:45] gonna take part in the bow out he's not gonna be close he's just gonna watch the your cultural from afar your cultural day from afar basically so uh so I like that as well but um nice little

[00:24:55] touches yeah no I look for this this is cool this over every aspect of this uh from the cultural bit I remember speaking about something very similar with um Miss Marvel mm-hmm when we watch

[00:25:08] Miss Marvel again these windows into other cultures that I have absolutely no notion about outside of other western based tv shows or films which usually are somewhat kind of I'm going to use the term whitewashed oh yeah even culturally whitewashed um this seems authentic

[00:25:32] this seems like something if we were to go to tamaha we would see this we would see and straight at the end of this episode there is a thank you to the the Choctaw Nation in

[00:25:44] Oklahoma for the support because obviously they consulted they obviously were very close on this absolutely so I'm pretty sure the next pow wow next year or this year in 2024 is gonna be massive

[00:26:03] and actually on the word pow wow I always thought that was a word you couldn't use like I thought it was like I know what you mean I thought it was a word that was used

[00:26:14] to belittle Native Americans uh indigenous people I did think it was like very much a word like oh you just it's a pow wow so I completely removed it from my lexicon right

[00:26:27] for it because I always thought it was that and then I'm like oh no no it's like it's a thing they use it everyone use it it's it's it is what it is and I'm like oh cool I'm the more you know

[00:26:39] interested our wipes into this episode I always just thought it was two punches from Batman in the 60s series pow and pow and pow and pow and both no but no it is it is really cool seeing this and

[00:26:56] part of the show then that's happening here and it goes it stretches across the day you know as you've said you know there are the moments of uh of the dancing going on um I like that we see

[00:27:06] the camera pan across um some of the some of the women that are waiting to waiting for their performance are waiting for their moment during the day and again you know it's tying in you know it

[00:27:14] is a current culture it's not people dressing up in in ancient gear they're also people with literary boots on as part of their of their effort for the day you know it's it's showing

[00:27:25] that it is still a living festival for this community and with this community well and you know the some of the the dresses in the traditional style but using sequence and very

[00:27:36] modern stuff you know yeah in there and I I love the the pan the the aerial pan down and you see the different kind of movements happening because I think there were two guys very much with the

[00:27:49] the feather head dresses just doing the spinning and so on really really good and I love the rhythm and the rhythmic nature of of this it was really kind of cool and sort of that's the circular element with the the there's that ceremonial drone in the middle

[00:28:08] just doing that beat and the ceremonial sort of music and chance happening yeah absolutely also love the hype man DJ it feels like he's probably the the mc of of this particular event I

[00:28:24] wonder if they got the actual guy that does it in from from Oklahoma yeah maybe I wonder if that's who they got because he said it seemed really comfortable just shouting out and calling out

[00:28:36] when big moments were happening but part of this is supposed because we're going to talk about Maya separately in her own point because that's really the big culmination of the episode but

[00:28:46] I do like that Henry and biscuits both get a moment in this because they have been so involved in the series you know but I like that biscuits goes off to get himself a monster truck and there is a part

[00:28:59] of the event itself has a monster truck element but he goes and steals a monster truck or takes a monster truck to take out some of zamed men who are waiting in the trucks well that's it

[00:29:07] and I like how Henry is saying well if you got yourself a gun you know it's going to be dangerous because I've got something better and it's yeah just the monster truck yeah um very cool

[00:29:17] was that shadowed anyway in the in the earlier episode was it anyway put like was there because I can't remember and I'm but then I now in my head I'm like wait was that kind of gonna be like

[00:29:29] because that scene where we saw him go to the junkyard yeah as they're a monster truck in there in the background or something that we just missed I think they just mentioned in this

[00:29:38] episode that there are monsters there's a monster truck rally that goes on so he takes one of those but you're absolutely right given what had happened earlier on the season with the way

[00:29:47] Maya broke out of the bowling alley by building herself her own weapon from scratch and the way we had um Skully build the leg for for Maya like an 18 type moment you'd also probably

[00:29:59] have biscuits building his own car from scratch if he had time but here he just goes okay well I could use the junkyard but I have about 10 but that's I'm just gonna take the keys

[00:30:07] from from the monster truck and drive it over the top of Zane's men um but it's Henry that gets to take out Zane um which I like because of that coming full circle from when Zane came to to

[00:30:21] take back Maya he didn't think Maya was there looked at Henry and kind of went well that's the prize that everybody wants anyway this is the guy that escaped from New York escaped from Kingpin's Clutches as we heard in the conversation between Maya and Henry last episode

[00:30:35] he's the one that escaped and got back at Tamaha so that was going to be Zane's prize since he couldn't get Maya didn't think he could back in the bowling alley and here we have Henry

[00:30:44] taking him out with uh with one shot to the heart yes well absolutely and also just the look on Zane's face as well as he has an RPG I mean this is like everyone at the power has no idea

[00:31:00] what's going on except for biscuits Henry and Maya so classic oh the fireworks are starstaffs but I you know I thought it was really good yeah I enjoyed this I thought it was I thought it was a an interesting

[00:31:18] like you said a way to bring it all full circle with um the depth of Zane but I was kind of hoping he survived really I actually I actually enjoyed his character first in episode three yeah so I'm just

[00:31:33] like hmm he would have been good and dare that were born again the guy has what a fist operatives kind of just as a low life new thing and you just make him a bit more wacky and crazy as it goes on

[00:31:45] so the fact he's gone I'm like okay you've just killed another one I was interested in but Hey Chris all I can say is this entire series was built on the premise of Wilson Fisk getting a

[00:31:57] bullet point blank to the head and Henry shot this guy from across across the way took him out stopped the RPG from going but doesn't necessarily mean that he's dead true it could be could literally just be kind of lying down then arrested as the cops come in

[00:32:15] yeah I think you need like a walking dead style headshot to be the only way that people are got Henry needs to see the expected Henry needs to walk over and double tap yeah oh

[00:32:28] but I guess that's it for the the payway show down the beginning of that yeah I think we can move on to our fight point number four the echo of the ancestor here through Maya as she goes

[00:32:41] to confront Fisk and and save to learn Bonnie yeah really yeah this is the culmination of of the series really isn't it absolutely so I'm gonna go negative because I want to end on a positive

[00:32:55] for this okay this went by so quickly this was a short piece it felt like a like five minutes that's all it felt like and then I understand it probably was a bit longer but it was just

[00:33:12] for the finale for the culmination for the everything we had a longer fighting in the roller rink yes we do and I was just like I was expecting a bit more of it now that she was

[00:33:28] fully powered if you want to call it that like she had she had and off of the bit she shared her powers oh I was expecting like adding another 20 men 10 men whatever a bit more

[00:33:42] because all we had all the men in the in the fans exactly but I was expecting like another van or something a man just coming in and then giving us a bit more I want to say razzmatazz okay a bit

[00:33:55] more finale a bit more just I know this is like the street level yeah like and I understand it's not trying to be that over the top cinematic battles to end all battles yeah but I just expected

[00:34:10] a bit more because that's criticism that the mcu gets all the time and even did themselves in she hook that we we get to the final episode so all that's going to be is your main character

[00:34:20] punching people in the face for yeah for 60 minutes right exactly so they didn't do that and the choice makes sense because it's to do with the theme of the entire series here I agree

[00:34:32] and look that's so the criticism was I just wanted more a few more minutes of it that being said what we got was fantastic this confrontation between Maya and Fisk and how it is resolved

[00:34:47] and that that that way that was like perfectly thematically for this show yeah the echoing of ages the the bloodline the the empowerment of this generation of women different generations of women um or actually body and Maya the same but you understand it's just that kind of

[00:35:10] that the piece and then how and what it ends with yeah in terms of the is the interesting piece yeah and there's a bit of punchy punchy in there so it's great but I wanted more punchy

[00:35:22] just say that yeah I I love this I loved how it was shot as well her was I was put together this that scene where you see each of her ancestors sitting in Maya's position just

[00:35:32] as she's taken that punch love each of them they're all forming together and then separating out to be standing right by her side exactly as T'Loah had said to her um that she was not alone

[00:35:43] she is surrounded by ancestors I thought it was just so excellently executed yeah it was really good I love that too and just having that representation um was so good of seeing them

[00:35:55] sort of in place where Maya is and then separated out I love that T'Loah and Bonnie get to sort of kick ass on their captors as well and and I like that ultimately yeah there's the

[00:36:11] fights and so on but I like that as Fisk decides or needs to to get in to sort of the action to control Maya because and see all these men are being taken down I love the fact that yeah

[00:36:28] with with his arms raised it's Maya going in with the the the symbol that her mom uses to heal and in order to sort of make Fisk confront his own demons absolutely which was

[00:36:45] really good I just I just thought it was different again you know it's the upending of the expectations because you know you you've heard from Tula's house you know these different elements around

[00:36:57] ferocity strategy culling all this and in the end it's healing and you know in a sense love that Maya is trying is using here yeah and you know she's used the ferocity the strategy

[00:37:11] and the cunning in terms of to get to this moment you know to infiltrate into the power out to get to the barn all this and I like that you know all these gifts are being used

[00:37:24] in this moment yeah I'm calling back to that initial moment at the beginning of the episode where her mother tells her we don't harm living things and part of the pair that she has

[00:37:33] is this power of love and healing so to use it that way was was really cool to see Fisk coming at her with his full force and her able to stop him using that healing that that healing way just worked so

[00:37:45] well for the themes for me and I do have a theory as well as she passes the power to Tula and to and to Bonnie because Tula we heard is one of the ancestors that this power has passed

[00:37:56] through right so she already has it she's tapping into it there with the help of Maya but we didn't see that with Bonnie Bonnie's a cousin she's not direct bloodline back to Chafa as we heard Maya is but we did talk about the fact that Deverey Jacobs played

[00:38:12] Kehori in in what if I wonder if she has the connection back through her bloodline separately to Kehori yeah possibly it's a possibility isn't it oh that could be that could be what Maya doing I took it in that like because it was basing Maya's Bonnie's mother is

[00:38:29] Maya's mother sister yeah there's still a connection to that bloodline it's still all the way so just the women on but again I'm just trying to give them an out to write a Kehori series

[00:38:43] with Bonnie starring in it or just turns out Kehori is Kehori's daughter went on to marry someone in the the Choctaw Nation and that's that's how you bleed them together maybe it's

[00:38:56] yeah because it's as well Kehori is much later around the Spanish sort of invasion of the Americas so she's 1800s and she's in a different a different nation of the of the

[00:39:09] Native Americans yeah and then going into you know Maya trying to sort of connect Fisk back to his pain and trauma you know I guess there's a little bit more sort of background around that you

[00:39:23] have the wall that you saw in Daredevil season one with you know when hearing the sounds of his mother being beaten by his father and that trauma so you know a bit like you were saying Chris

[00:39:34] that you know not having that context a little bit more leaking in not entirely you know seven or eight episodes of a season but again it's just referencing those touch points to Fisk's

[00:39:51] I guess origin story in a sense and Rabid and Snowstorm yeah which is kind of like as the wall was called Rabid and a snowstorm where he's watching that white wall with the flex on it

[00:40:01] while his mama dad are having that fight outside which did lead to Fisk murdering his father so so she takes him all the way back to that moment in time to do what her mother did for her

[00:40:12] try and heal the pain try and heal this pivotal moment in his life not having to be the only thing that has power over Fisk right so she's kind of taken away that connection or trying to take

[00:40:24] away that connection in the moment here yeah no absolutely again it's the other you know string to the guitar I guess and of my I think the other interesting thing here before that power of the

[00:40:39] ancestors flowing through Maya is Fisk does admit to killing her father here as well and you you have from Maya following the vision of her mom saying I'm their legacy and a part of them

[00:40:58] I'm not your legacy so it's like really you know she's kind of made that choice here and I kind of really like the idea that in the same way of what echoes through Maya's life

[00:41:15] she is effect through this healing trying to see what has echoed through Fisk's life to make him who he is as well so it's a really good use of this kind of motif really yeah it's massive as well

[00:41:30] and you know we talked about the offer last week from from Fisk to say come back to New York you become the queenpin she turned him down and now it's I'm going to murder all of your family

[00:41:40] you know I can see how close you are with the family you've shown me that you've told me that now I know how much pain I'm going to cause you when I murder them all you know it's it's

[00:41:49] the brutality of Fisk we've seen that right back to as we talked about the Robin the headlights the murdering of his father we've seen his brutality when he switches he switches to full brutal killing nature and that's what's happened with Maya she has made that choice she's

[00:42:05] said to him I'm not going to do what you want me to do and that's not something you say to Wilson Fisk and his choices violence yeah and what does she heal this is the question I was like what did she do

[00:42:18] to him what does she take or heal or take away because I can guess but it's not specifically called out I think you know that the reaction from Fisk is what did you do to me exactly you

[00:42:30] know but what's happening here is as I say exactly what Taloa did for Maya the death of her mother is the connection that Maya has to her past and has led her into the position that she's in the

[00:42:42] pain that she felt the separation from her family all of those things that led Maya to lead the life that she did working for Kingpin thinking it's okay to harm other living things

[00:42:52] all of that came from the pain she had from losing Taloa Taloa used that pair healed Maya separated her from that it is something that happened absolutely but it can't define the rest

[00:43:03] of your life is basically the the point from what happened with Taloa and now Maya's doing the same she's paying it forward she's passing that on to Fisk yes a massively painful moment in your life

[00:43:13] your father was beating your mother you killed him you took that pair and killed him but that shouldn't be the defining point for your entire life so she's taken away or at least helped to heal that wound that has defined Fisk's life for his entirety the only connection

[00:43:32] that's similar to this is in the comic books this is how Fisk becomes mayor this is the storyline of Devil's Reign where in the comics anyway the children of Kilgrave which was one of the

[00:43:45] characters who could bend people's mind um the children of Kilgrave were used by Daredevil to take away Wilson Fisk's knowledge of his past violent crimes making him think that he is

[00:43:58] a good person and making him run for mayor of New York so there is a comic book connection to the fact that Maya's gone in there messed with his past and effectively maybe cured him and healed him

[00:44:09] of that past history yeah i'd be interesting to see because i want to know because that kill that that brutality is what made Fisk Fisk and yeah it's interesting to see that we know he

[00:44:25] isn't born again the Daredevil so is it a different Fisk now a different you know what i mean is it Fisk born again he's no longer actually the bad guy i'm not Murdoch is going after him

[00:44:37] kind of going you're a king being he's like no no no i'm reformed i'm good type of thing is it going to be interesting to see absolutely it may not have gone that deep i guess it could just

[00:44:48] be more the you know this is this has put a wedge in the door for Fisk and maybe you know i think with our fight point five around Fisk for Murdoch i think it's you know he's looking

[00:45:03] at that news story just in a different way um you know i mean i i think what is happening here is that power of healing but it's not necessarily saying it's instant in this case like with kill

[00:45:15] grave which is almost a blocking yeah this is this is saying this is uh Maya saying you need to confront what you've done and that's what she's she's making him relive it confront it and as she says

[00:45:28] you know this can't then define you you have to um move on so i i think it's it's not as such that he is a changed man in the same way that in devil's reign it happened i think this is saying

[00:45:42] that a seed has been planted here in the same way that we've seen through the whole of this season for echo with the visions sporadically coming to her there's there's an evolution to it and

[00:45:57] maybe that's what ultimately um is a way for um devil devil born again in terms of that role that fisk plays and how that story will unfold but i guess it's we'll have to wait and see

[00:46:13] yeah yeah like i absolutely love Vincent and Afri on the role of wilson fisk but you know we've seen it for three seasons and now for echo and for hawkeye we've seen him he's the bad guy go beat him

[00:46:23] up go kill him he's the leader um so a change to his character might be quite interesting to explore um he's a fantastic actor very versatile so having a change in his character for the next time we see him

[00:46:34] and the impact that has on everybody that just assumes he's the bad guy right um we saw a little bit of that in devil season three but he was pretending uh in that season but the idea that

[00:46:44] he may have changed and this this um encounter with echo has had that massive impact on his life i think would be really interesting yeah and it's like classic thing that we've seen in the comics

[00:46:56] like with lex luther in dc world you know what happens if he becomes president and norman osborn as well where they get into positions of democratically elected power and what that happens

[00:47:07] and guys we're seeing it with trump so it might be along that analogy that they play it um and who knows he might actually be in there um i hope maya would heal whatever pain is causing

[00:47:20] that before he gets into a position higher again well i didn't want to take it down that line yeah yeah um but it is a really interesting concept to take it this way and again it turns common book

[00:47:30] origin stories on its head in a way i think um i think there's a really really important message in its own way there's lots of people pretty much everybody has said something in their past

[00:47:42] that could have defined them and set them up in a way for the rest of their life you can say i was born into poverty that has had an impact on me and that can make you make choices to go down a

[00:47:54] path of criminality or to go down a path of making sure that your whole family are taken care of in the future by whatever path you choose to go down but that can't be the only thing that defines

[00:48:05] you for your entire life and a lot of people who have really bad moments in the life choose that to define them and what we're saying here this is what happens in comic books all the

[00:48:14] time they go well this character is created in 1963 when this moment happened to them and then for the next 70 years they act as exactly the same character over and over again and what's happening here with

[00:48:24] Maya is going it doesn't have to be that way she's calling out and the show is calling out you can overcome trauma you can overcome your past get a bit of health get a family around

[00:48:36] you get people to take care of you get people to work it through with you and you may be able to overcome that here it's a magical power that she's severed that link for fisk or at least started

[00:48:47] to sever that link to that one defining moment that has led him into this massive life of violence but i think it's a really interesting exploration of that in a really short moment really interesting

[00:48:57] idea it sparks at least in me thoughts for the discussion about the impact of echo as a show yeah and we see with her own pain that Maya is further down that healing journey in the way that

[00:49:12] then you know she goes to Chula's house to connect back with her her family yeah that she is not seen in 20 years pretty much yeah they do set it up to make it look like she is leaving

[00:49:25] like that's and i was like very much i was like oh okay so they're just gonna have her as this kind of wondering but and then she stops off okay so she's staying yeah yeah like the other

[00:49:35] the other big question that it sparked in me this moment and the ending of this episode is is there anything else for Maya the character to do in the marvel cinematic universe because what has effectively led to these powers and what we've learned from Chula and everything

[00:49:51] that we have here is that she is now the protector of the Choctaw nation she's the protector of her people so unless they do i don't know home alone to the Choctaw nation go on a trip

[00:50:03] to new york and then she's she's the protector of them from fisk's men who attack them when they're in new york it seems that her powers are ancestral and to do with the people that are around or the

[00:50:15] family that are around her that she will protect the family and then we'll use the violence because if she's not doing that then she's on the dark side then she's on the side of fisk she's

[00:50:23] fighting and killing people that aren't attacking her family attacking her Choctaw nation but i think it's i think it's more than just that because i think it's also about what she brings to the powers

[00:50:35] or the power set that has echoed through a frosty strategy cunning and love so what is Maya bringing to that then all the people and you know the the future generations will be able to tap into

[00:50:48] because we've seen that you know all these people tapping into it along the timeline that's been presented here so it is about that but i think it's a collective thing it you know

[00:51:01] this is about all the people then being able to draw upon it and so it doesn't mean to say that she now has to reside in Tamaha i don't think which i think is the important thing and in

[00:51:14] in fairness like you say it does look like she's leaving and it could be that she's just stopping off we don't yeah i mean we just don't know i feel like that's a that's her returning to her family

[00:51:26] i feel like that's she's got everything with her because she was going to leave remember before she went to before she went to the powwow she had everything with her um but i think that's her

[00:51:35] reconnecting with her family yeah exactly that's her not saying i'm leaving tomorrow that's her saying i'm coming back and staying here because now i feel part of the community i feel part of

[00:51:45] the generations i feel part of this family i think the important thing is they left it open ended yes exactly they have they did not they did not fully set and say yeah that's the end of echo

[00:51:56] echo will not return in a great marvel cinematic universe yes because they didn't say one way or the other because to be fair usually when they want to when they have a definitive plan

[00:52:07] call it definitive loosely they they do put the bumper at the end echo will return hop guy will return blah blah blah will return miss marvel will return like that's they will say those

[00:52:19] words on a black screen with white text that's usually what they do yeah they didn't on this but they also left it somewhat they they didn't say like she's no longer has her powers they

[00:52:31] haven't like done anything like that so in the new avengers film we probably will see Maya there probably as a background character fighting in the big battle at the end potentially

[00:52:44] that's one thing or the next street level build up when they have iron fist and dare level and blah blah hot guy and everyone's back they could potentially bring her back yeah when they

[00:52:56] need to they have that character available to them yeah um i i found it interesting that they didn't directly say because i'm like interesting so you do don't have a definitive plan with this character

[00:53:12] so like this seems more now to me like where we'll find out a month which is they now have these reserved characters from these special presentations from the premiere kind of that

[00:53:24] they can't dip into and pull when they really want to and if it's big enough it's such a draw they may expand upon it but they didn't and i think this is again just going to be a wait and see yeah

[00:53:38] there was a massive risk for disney plus to do a tvma show right that's the that's the big risk here and way before daredevil's coming out they haven't done one since the netflix shows and

[00:53:47] those reported over after most fans had watched them on netflix right so um so they can't test the waters unless they do a tvma show and you know all of their movies have been

[00:53:58] general audience pg movies so bringing in the character of echo or committing to bring her into the wider marvel universe when most of their audience wouldn't have been able to see

[00:54:07] who the character was before that's a big commitment for them to do so i'm glad to hear it seems the ratings have been really good overall the viewership has been really good at least if not

[00:54:17] specifically the usual kind of ratings that marvel get for everything it's pretty pretty average in there it's pretty much pretty standard in there from the kind of ratings that marvel get for anything they put out there but the viewership has been reasonably high and there

[00:54:30] are conversations about bringing the character back in future but they couldn't have committed to it because they were testing something brand new here with the violence level for disney plus so but speaking of bringing back

[00:54:44] existing characters let's move to briefly to our fight point five which we've kind of already kind of discussed to some degree but that is fisk for me because you know the likelihood that here sort of drawing off the devil's reign arc and leading into the devil born again

[00:55:05] yeah yeah absolutely this is a massive storyline in the comic books of the time one of those really surprising ones because front covers of comic books had fisk for mayor written on them you know

[00:55:16] showing that wilson fisk became mayor of new york quite a big quite a big comic book arc so interesting to see it coming in at the end of the episode in the in this post credit scene

[00:55:27] and again you know it's interesting that it's almost inspired by echo so there will be this lasting impact from the show into leading into daredevil born again and it's again as i mentioned

[00:55:39] earlier on it is similar to the ark and season three of daredevil where everybody thought that maybe wilson fisk had turned over a new leaf and become a good guy right yeah so um so it's

[00:55:48] all connected in that way to uh to this story going forward yeah and i look i i'm really interested to see where they go with this because for me it's they are building what i can

[00:55:59] only assume is going to be the marvel netflix kind of mini universe in that is that more mature aspects it's these showcases it's these ones that are for your adults and are going to be just more

[00:56:14] kind of a bit more violent bit more mature themes and it will be his own pocket universe i want to say pocket because just they'll sprinkle in these characters later into the other movies and

[00:56:25] shows but not as much what you don't want is the kids the the young ones going well i wouldn't know about fisk what's that hammer there for like they're gonna try and separate they're gonna try and do as

[00:56:40] much of uh this is actually apt for daredevil a separation between church and state if they're gonna try maybe maybe it gives them options i suppose that's the that's the big point you

[00:56:51] know um their their shows can't aim us everybody over 35 to watch them they have to have a wide audience for uh for most of the major productions that they do but it's great that they have these

[00:57:02] kind of side projects that can aim at a smaller audience uh great stuff i only have one note from the episode just interesting that we saw bonnie at the end of the episode um with her

[00:57:11] braided like tuclo um as a chock-tower warrior as well i thought that was quite interesting that you see her with her changed hairstyle it's the one big shame though for me about the

[00:57:20] season of echo the one big drawback um not having devor jacob's on screen more um bonnie's supposed to be a massively important character to mea and i felt that she wasn't on screen enough to show

[00:57:31] the importance chula certainly was you could absolutely see that connecting moment but you felt i felt like there was only you know that one scene in the in the roller rink and then the conversation afterwards with with bonnie saying i'll take care of you i promise and

[00:57:44] then she feels like she's been out of the season i just wonder if it was something to do with the filming on the last season of reservation dogs that meant that devor jacob's couldn't

[00:57:51] commit to being in the roll more maybe but it felt like she was she just wasn't present in the season enough to make it as important at the end but i do wonder because she got the power from

[00:58:01] and she has her braided hair at the end has she now seen the visions of the ancestors and will the two of them fight side by side in the future possibly yeah you know maybe even if my

[00:58:11] theory of of kihori coming into live action is incorrect maybe that's a possibility in the future that two of them will fight side by side yeah absolutely and the only note i've got is

[00:58:22] possibly the you know uh the spark between chula and skully is back there after the sewing machine and scene in in the pawn shop i kind of like that little moment you know these i think these

[00:58:35] two characters have been really sort of well used and just that the gravitas that they bring as well as you know the the some elements of the light heartedness certainly from skully

[00:58:47] so i like that there was a you know a promise by chula that she would see skully soon at least come back and visit him occasionally yeah like that i like that um oh just just one thing on the

[00:59:01] on the discussion that's going on on the tv um just the reference that's in there that they make where they say uh what voters really want right now in new york is a bare knuckle boxer just

[00:59:11] thought that was interesting because uh matt murdoch's father of course being a boxer and matt murdoch being a good fighter as well so maybe it's fisk versus matt murdoch for for the role

[00:59:21] of of mayor of new york see not just a not just a a law procedural type show we're gonna have a battle for for office in new york again yeah there you go any of the notes christ no nothing

[00:59:35] from my set excellent well then in which case uh chris do you defend episode five of echo yes i do um as i said like there was that small brief negative if you want to call it that is just

[00:59:50] basically i wanted more of a fighting i wanted more of a kind of kicky punchy aspect as well as the the ending that we got i feel it was apt it was fitting it just wanted a bit more

[01:00:03] kind of action to it this was one of the shorter episodes so it just feels like you were tied to a time which we know they don't and disney plus so an extra couple of minutes of just

[01:00:14] bonnie kicking ass chula kicking ass uh it would have been great to see that's all that's that's my major negative um and then it's just outside of uh fisk and the teaser we get

[01:00:28] we don't know much more about what's going to happen to the character of echo and these characters that we've been introduced to and this nation and culture which i want more of

[01:00:38] so i we got same the miss marvels um we got that furthered on in the marvels so i would love something similar i would love to see more of all of echo in future projects just to see how it

[01:00:55] kind of turns out but overall really enjoyed it and it yeah overall yeah great excellent stuff derrick do you defend this episode yeah absolutely defend this episode i thought this is a really

[01:01:08] interesting and really good end to the show the way it was presented i wasn't i wasn't expecting it i think exactly as you said chris you know we've been the show had been advertised i suppose as the

[01:01:19] the show that takes over from netflix deredevil takes over from the netflix shows it is ultra violent they've got the they've got the fight scenes uh as good as the netflix shows so

[01:01:29] i guess you almost lay up the show that it's going to be a show down at the end of the season between wilson fisk's men and uh and maya and she's gonna be going fighting all her way through

[01:01:38] them to get there but it did exactly what the show has been telling us it was going to do um she learns from her history she learns from her ancestors she learns a way to properly embody them as her power

[01:01:54] to take out uh to take out fisk and the the choice that they made here that it would be with love and with healing that's easier way to really defeat wilson fisk rather than what she already

[01:02:05] did which was put a bullet in his head you know she's already tried that it didn't work so why would she try it again that's the that's the essence of madness isn't it so um so to make that choice and

[01:02:14] to build it up the way that they did um i think worked really really well i think the performances throughout the series have been great the um the insight into the chopton nation has been

[01:02:22] really fascinating throughout the series and ending it in this massive pow wow was was really really good and yeah i'm very impressed with what they delivered in this series i don't see a way

[01:02:34] forward for echo as a character but hey i'm not a writer at marvel so um let's see how they let's see how they use uh they use myelopas in the future um she absolutely could just turn up uh in new york

[01:02:44] in the future but um i see this as being a way of bringing her back to her roots and giving her a good um a good ending a positive happy ending almost as she gets back and reconnects with

[01:02:57] her family that she's been missing for so many years so uh so i liked that as the as the close out to the story of echo that we've seen over these two seasons i suppose with hawkeye

[01:03:06] and with uh with this show now so um happy to see her again those who's fantastic i'd love to see more of the character in some way in the future so but really good how about yourself john do you

[01:03:16] defend the finale of echo episode five mya yeah i do defend this episode i'll give it four rpg fireworks out of five and i did think it was short i have to say um and you know dare i

[01:03:30] say rushed i mean i think there is the suggestion that there was a sixth episode there so i think you know some of these deep moments i think could have been sort of just given space to

[01:03:45] air and breathe a bit more and possibly that would include more with with bonnie um you know and so on but nonetheless i really enjoyed it i loved um i thought the heart beat element

[01:03:58] through here like getting the information around to lower and how that fed into you know effectively the echoes are of of mya's life coming through from her ancestors to fisk's echoes from his

[01:04:16] childhood trauma and from the beatings at the hands of his father and and him uh you know the the abuse towards his mother and him killing his father so i love that kind of parallel that

[01:04:30] brought through here um and everything that you guys have said as well i think and you know the intriguing element of uh what's coming up with and dare devil born again and uh the

[01:04:44] possibility of fisk for me but i have and do um hold out hope that we have echo in that show so i really hope that they do i think that would be really intriguing certainly as we saw

[01:04:59] dare devil and echo meet um in in episode one of the season so i liked how this sort of brought everything together um at the end and um yeah so i'd give this four rpg fireworks out of five

[01:05:14] very good hey john i think it's time to go to the pub well kind of uh last time for the pub quiz or the bar quiz for echo john not only beer but also

[01:05:29] fellow quizzes and of course fellow defenders yes welcome to the american bar quiz it is question five of the echo series and relates to episode five if you're newly joining us um question five who does biscuits tell zane is looking after general parking very good very good

[01:05:53] loved this yeah good little gag in there yes nice to end on a gag with our final question for the echo pub quiz so all you need to do is get together all the answers for all the questions

[01:06:02] email us to feedback ask tv podcast industries dot com with each of the correct answers and you'll be able to chance of getting your hands on some echo goodies if you've missed any of the questions

[01:06:10] throughout the season you can just pop on over to the website at tvpodcastindustries.com and all the questions that built there too john do you want to give them the question one more time absolutely question five who does biscuits tell zane is looking after general parking

[01:06:26] excellent best of luck we'll be announcing the winner of the echo american bar quiz on our wrap up episode for echo and the making of echo is now available on disney plus right now go watch that

[01:06:36] we'll be talking about that on the final episode as well excellent stuff good luck fellow quizzes and defenders uh in the echo quiz exactly hope you had a bit of fun yeah absolutely very good

[01:06:48] will we see what our fellow defenders had to say about the finale yeah let's do it yes first up and we got an email through from coffin vodka says greetings fellow foul warned four armed defenders

[01:06:59] if ever the editor had someplace to be it was during the processing of this episode approximately 27 minutes of story sandwiched between opening and closing credits despite the general time to service echo story was wrapped up well the modern day light riders worked well together

[01:07:16] and the bird brought a tender tear to the eye end of the day not out of the park home run i thought it would be but a good tale with a few brilliant scenes uh two and a half inexplicable

[01:07:29] monster trucks maternal voltrons and trumpy kingpins out of five for the season for echoes echoes echoes out of five peace and take care coffin vodka very good yeah thanks so much coffin vodka

[01:07:44] and yep it's i i think it's certainly short um i i think you know it could have been really good just being at that hour mark possibly it just again it would just be building layering up

[01:07:59] i think what we saw in this episode but tend repetitions you know it could have well it could have been a longer fight scene you know more um sort of punches for chris it could have been

[01:08:13] you know more of the power out and seeing that ceremony take place more you know could have been 10 minutes of biscuits trying to find the keys for that monster truck exactly where did i

[01:08:22] put the key in a whole host of things but i mean just filtering through you know i say we do know there is a lost episode of um well that's how doctor of echo that's how dr who always puts

[01:08:35] it except the last episode of social such oh we found it wasn't produced there was originally commissioned for six and they made five so it's not uh it's not that there's a lost episode they

[01:08:45] may they made five episodes i don't know i get it i understand that the complaint that the episode might feel short but i think it had the story that it had to tell in the biggest complaint

[01:08:54] people used to have when we watched the 13 episodes of daredevil it was always like oh there's three episodes too many here oh i wish it was eight episodes and then they make eight

[01:09:01] and they go oh i wish it was five episodes and then they make five and it's like oh i wish it was seven episodes so you know if it didn't jibe i totally get it if the story of the series

[01:09:10] didn't jibe um absolutely get it but if they made the show that they wanted to make within the five episodes and i hope they did i think i think connected quite well with it quite well with me

[01:09:19] i'm sure there's other things that they could have done within the series i think the one thing that absolutely is missing is bonnie's character uh that felt like they may have cut that storyline eight of the series there may have that may have formed a majority of the

[01:09:31] extra episode that they may have gotten if they've done six and i do feel it suffers for not seeing uh the actress every Jacobs are not seeing and not seeing the character of bonnie

[01:09:40] um but that's that's just my opinion i guess yeah no absolutely and i think it comes through from from uh for the season though as well you know it's a really good story absolutely thanks

[01:09:51] kaffee vodka yeah thanks so much kaffee and vodka over on twitter we got feedback from matt murdergood this to say i really enjoyed echo hats off to porter for scoring music making already big emotion feel even bigger surprising an amazing set of climaxes for the finish

[01:10:07] and insightful post credit scene felt very netflix marvel as it probably should thanks matt yeah i think we kind of talked about the music like even in the last episode um how it kind of really just

[01:10:21] reset the tone in a lot of the show and it was well it was well chosen for each episode in particular last episode where he did have down in the river about which

[01:10:32] we saw how that was delivered so yeah no overall agree that the music is really well done yeah absolutely some really good choices from the from the music supervisor some great moments in this episode particularly uh in the finale as we as we talked about her your

[01:10:46] arm uh thanks so much matt for your feedback yeah thanks matt over on threads yeah you got some feedback on threads it's moving it's moving uh it's johnny million says we finished this few days ago what a delightful series i'm all for marvel shining spotlights on more diverse

[01:11:01] perspectives love it that's why it's called marvel spotlight exactly that was the time i couldn't think of her saying showcase everything at spotlight marvel spotlight yeah makes sense now i don't i totally agree johnny it's a really good show really enjoyed having something

[01:11:17] um completely different for the mcu and this is you know this is what we've said before you can't put out the same content every every time you do a movie or a tv show it should

[01:11:25] least target a specific audience with an idea and tell a good story for that audience so and i think they did a good job with that yeah excellent stuff thanks johnny million

[01:11:35] over on facebook dan lee says like most of the marvel stuff for the last few years this felt a bit of a mess to me i miss the days of being excited to see that title card and hear that

[01:11:43] iconic music that's a shame that it didn't didn't connect with you dan for for the series it's interesting isn't that marvel are no longer using the same music as the rincho we're not

[01:11:53] hearing the marvel logo music as they as they had for for the mcu movies and it's changing quite often yeah that's true actually and this is probably one of the first series i think if i'm right this

[01:12:05] is one of the first series that's used a piece of music from a recognizable artist i suppose so the aa is doing the theme tune for this show rather than it being the composer doing a theme

[01:12:15] for echo so this really does stand alone and separate from from a lot of the other shows definitely definitely yeah but let's see if the uh if the marvel music playing before madame web

[01:12:25] next month gets it adjusted dan i suspect not i suspect it won't that's so going to be online within like oh i'd bow five weeks less yeah yeah we're gonna release that will this though

[01:12:38] or will it just will it just disappear at least we're gonna actually get to see us unlike what hbo has been doing with their dc content uh well that is true that is true

[01:12:46] thanks so much dan for the feedback also on facebook we had jeff childs who says wow i really enjoyed that here are my random thoughts about the series great fight choreography the cox versus

[01:12:58] cox fight really good and it whets my appetite for more daredevil casting a lack where cox's cousin to play young maya was great casting they look like they could be the same person it's hard to

[01:13:11] believe that this is the first role for each of them they did an outstanding job king pain may be the best villain in the mcu i have to admit that i got misty during the last episode when maya

[01:13:24] encountered her mother then later stood with her ancestors i loved it while i loved the series five episodes felt rushed another episode or two would have helped with that enjoyed seeing maya's hero journey from villain to hero it sort of reminds me of black widow going from

[01:13:41] soviet agents to avenger now that she has her superhero suit i hope we see more of her in the mcu yes darryk so do i hope she's so darryk is uh is ready to sort of retire her off to

[01:13:58] tamaha um whereas i'm totally with you the uh jeff that i hope we see her um sort of in daredevil born again let's just face this little saunthe back to new york city

[01:14:11] yeah all i'm saying is and all it would take is you know a ravager appearing outside tamaha you know causing some kind of problems for the chakta nation and that brings echo back into

[01:14:23] the universe that's all it is it's just the fact they leave it with her being the protector of the nation so there are absolute ways to do it as i say echo two lost in new york is coming

[01:14:32] soon thanks so much of course jeff for your thoughts though as well i love the catch there on the uh the fight the fight between cox versus cox so it's charlie cox versus alakwakox so i don't

[01:14:44] need to think about that yes two cox's head to head exactly cox fighting if you will yeah absolutely thanks jeff and yeah no i do agree i see the similarities with the black widow versus

[01:14:58] kind of echo the similarities that they do have in inside the soviet versus um kind of yeah that's a nice touch tamaha um but overall like really glad that you enjoyed it as much and i

[01:15:12] think we're all i think a lot of people do feel that they could have done one more but some people are quite happy with the others so i suppose it's just a fair mix but i've enjoyed what they've

[01:15:22] gotten so i like it's it's yeah it's it's just i think it's because people have enjoyed it it's almost like they want more exactly and so you know it's the same when the marvel netflix

[01:15:33] shows came to an end it was like all of a sudden after time it's like oh yeah i want a bit more of that yeah absolutely you know so um yep great stuff thanks jeff we also have some feedback in

[01:15:45] from philly pay florencio uh philly says i really enjoyed the series i found the portrayal of native americans respectful even though i'm not from that community maya and her family in tamaha were highlights for me however the series felt rushed especially because it seems they combined

[01:16:03] trueless and slow as episodes it would have been nice if they had more room to breathe and to be with these characters maya's relationship with bonnie also seemed underdeveloped in the end the inclusion of kingpin der devil and the series darker tone along with the exciting casting

[01:16:20] and crew news made me optimistic for der devil born again good stuff for the pair yeah yeah i think they are really valid points around uh tula and to loa's episode and indeed as you say about

[01:16:33] bonnie i think that was something we'd sort of picked out as well just you know seemed like it didn't develop in the same almost in the same way that henry's um you know uh relationship with

[01:16:45] maya as her uncle yeah you know so it would have been nice to have seen that develop a bit better yeah i think i think because she's so central to the final episode as well with uh bonnie

[01:16:55] being saved by maya that you would have expected to see more during the series so yeah it seemed like there was some reason why a major storyline was cut out there you saw from

[01:17:05] the first episode onwards and didn't seem to get many scenes throughout the season and perhaps that might have been what formed that extra episode if they got in the sixth episode definitely but yeah i'm glad to see you enjoyed the episode of the series absolutely yeah and

[01:17:17] completely with you i love the portrayal of the the native american community nations the culture and so on i think it really just so interesting great to see that point into different stories like this yeah absolutely thanks for the fake absolutely thanks for the

[01:17:33] doctor bob philip says five out of five binned contact lenses for this episode just about everything this time worked for me the full asl rather than science supported american conversation between to loa and maya the crinkly love story the phalanx of history

[01:17:46] the beauty of echo's suit the gift of healing from a traumatic child of monster biscuit and grandma going full engrute as she battered the baddies i do hope we see more of my and

[01:17:56] explore her and body a bit deeper tempted to watch with the audio mute next time though i suspect it'd be one of those few shows where it could be as good as with send

[01:18:05] yeah that's a really good point and as i said throughout the podcast we always watch these part of these shows with uh with subtitles and there's definitely some nods in the subtitles

[01:18:12] yeah for just kind of a little bit more detail behind what's happening because they do a little bit of description of what's going on or just little lines that are said and give a little

[01:18:21] more clarity so definitely i think part of that would be the the importance of the heart beat in at least a couple of the episodes here with echo that you know it just makes it a bit clearer

[01:18:34] yeah just added that bit more you know with than having the subtitles off really yeah exactly yeah very good yeah great stuff and speaking of making things clearer i was actually going to

[01:18:45] put this into the main podcast when i was listening back at our edit i realized we missed a major thing that happened in the episode and we joked about it earlier on in the podcast

[01:18:53] we are recording this a little bit later chris isn't here as you can probably tell um but we had completely missed the fact that biscus has transformed chula's truck into a monster truck that's what he'd done with the stuff that he got from the junkyard absolutely it's

[01:19:07] only on screen for a split second it's on screen for a split second and it's just i think to filipe's point it's something that there's a bit of a leap of faith here that you're borrowing your

[01:19:20] your grandmother's uh and truck yeah you damage it and you don't repair it back to how it was well instead go for a monster truck because it was like this was her work van well yeah or work

[01:19:35] pickup or like yeah because she's delivering posts from a different car wasn't that under the broken down yeah so i was kind of like like it's not that you would drive a monster truck around so it

[01:19:46] so it just feels a little bit difficult to sort of immediately just absorb that without having seen it sort of explained you know i mean the whole scene where biscus friend says you know

[01:19:59] anything the sun touches is yours you kind of go grand that means he can repair the car create a monster truck yeah that's exactly what i thought yeah it's an odd one isn't it and the fact

[01:20:11] they didn't dwell on it yeah like you know yeah don't get it but the fact that we missed it as well i was quite surprised that we that we'd missed that that's what he done but it does seem like a

[01:20:19] weird choice from from biscus so they kind of cutting out the storyline and having just having him just drive a monster truck made us think that he just stolen a monster truck yeah but that's it i don't even think we had missed it just it had not been

[01:20:31] signposted particularly well that biscus had created a monster truck out of his grand's pickup truck exactly and like given the pow wow where the different things going on i kind of just assumed part of it was a monster truck demonstration or where they you know crush

[01:20:50] all the smaller lesser cars there with the monster truck and so but he had just kind of said look i need to borrow this or something exactly i just hopped into a monster truck to take

[01:21:00] one you know exactly but it's only when you look at it if you pause it for a second you see the color scheme of chula's chula's truck underneath and it's still the same okay the same dark brown

[01:21:09] and light brown color scheme so so we missed that and you'll probably have heard that earlier on the episode and be shouting at your podcast going what the hell they're talking about stealing

[01:21:17] monster truck yeah good stuff thanks bob thanks bob yeah thank you and finally harvey loka says wow what a fun and interesting show i was so glad she threw away the contact lenses which

[01:21:30] she should have done right after she'd done talking to fisk i mean if there is enough technology in it to do what it did it would obviously have a tracking device in this as well true the fact

[01:21:41] that they made arms and hands to do asl was silly why not just have text it's not like she can't read at the end of the last episode i was still hoping for her to be a baddie at the

[01:21:54] end of the series what they did in the intro of mum's healing power and the way they closed it with all the ancestors standing behind her had me change my mind when she shared her powers with her family

[01:22:06] members i couldn't help but cheer the look on chula's face was priceless same with zane's face when he caught the eye of henry the only thing in my opinion that could have made this better

[01:22:18] is if they didn't need kingpin for the daredevil series i thought daredevil was the worst of the netflix marvel shows with the exception of caron page james wedesley seen as far as tying it into

[01:22:32] the netflix shows i think they did a good job with the intro music i don't remember if turk died but it would have been fun to see him too all in all i give the show 4.95 out of five

[01:22:45] modified monster trucks excellent stuff there harvey thank you for that really good to get the old out of fire from you there and glad you enjoyed this the series as well yeah absolutely

[01:23:02] and yeah that's a good point about the asl hands that you can just on subtitles below someone that's talking couldn't you yeah which would have made more sense but he was

[01:23:10] he was creating the technology it's like that old story about you know we want to we want to be able to write in space so nasa spent millions creating a pen to write in space and then the

[01:23:20] russians just use the pencil and the old story and you know he wanted to show off that he was he wasn't going to learn asl but he could create technology that gave him asl arms it's like we

[01:23:32] forget the good stuff that we have other stuff we already have just the simple stuff exactly so yeah but yeah really glad that you enjoyed this glad as well that it kind of changed your mind

[01:23:44] around echo and that she ended off you know sort of absorbing the good of her ancestors and using that for her present relatives to fight off fisk yet and the whole look on zane's face as he

[01:23:59] captures henry really good henry a very good shot he was he was absolutely and with the silencer which i was i don't know whether it's just something random that i know but i always

[01:24:11] thought silences kind of make it harder oh really to use a gun i don't know i would say it might be completely wrong i know very very small amount of my guns no me too i must admit i must admit

[01:24:24] and but we are big fans here as you know harvey of the daredevil series i know it's probably the biggest of all the series probably because it was the first as well um jessica jones huge

[01:24:34] fans of that as well and i'm also quite partial to uh to luke cage as well so it's hard for me to pick one of the series that is the best series um some of them have ups and downs and i think the second

[01:24:46] series of daredevil is okay and the third series is really good uh first season jessica jones is probably my favorite of all of them and yeah as i say i also love uh luke cage too but we're

[01:24:56] excited to see them return absolutely and uh certainly um yes that scene between caron page and james wisley is absolutely that was fantastic um like james wisley was one of my favorite

[01:25:09] characters to have him uh bumped off there like i know i know he was great wasn't he really really good yeah excellent stuff thanks to all of you for your feedback and thanks to everybody for

[01:25:20] feedback throughout the season absolutely good stuff thanks everyone back to the uh close out with myself christian john if you want to email us and tell us any further thoughts you have

[01:25:30] you can always email us to feedback at tvpodcastindustries.com or alternatively you can pop on over to our facebook group at facebook.com slash groups slash tv podcast industries nest you can also support tv podcast industries uh by subscribing over tv podcast industries for all the new stuff

[01:25:47] coming down the tracks such as star wars the bad batch which begins on february 24th now there is also uh our coverage of the epic 10 episode series of shogun the adapted tv show from

[01:26:04] james clavell's book of the same name it's the new one not the 80s one yes it's the new one brand new one brand new epic show coming out on from fx which will be on disney plus weekly from

[01:26:16] february 28th indeed and of course the dulcet tones of chris and derrick will be there for the remaining episodes of uh the season two of invincible that's right as well so march yes so please

[01:26:31] subscribe to the podcast and of course share the podcast with people that you know because sharing the podcast is of course sharing the love first off thanks so much for joining us we'll be back

[01:26:43] to you back with you again really soon yes thank you so much i will speak to you in a couple weeks bye yes thanks so much fellow defenders for echoing with us through this series of echo uh in

[01:26:55] the meantime of course though keep watching keep listening and of course keep defending me bye bye