Echo Episode 4 Taloa

[00:00:00] This is the Defenders Podcast on TV Podcast Industries, we're back talking about Echo Season 1 Episode 4, T'Loah. Hello there, fellow Defenders, I am one of your other hosts, John. And stop! It's Hammer Time. I'm Chris. Welcome back, Chris. Thank you. Thank you.

[00:01:07] I'm struck like a hammer in the night or I was just like a fist father in the night. Too soon. Too soon, it's only been 30 years I think since that happened. But of course, yes we're going to be talking spoiler filled on this episode of Echo.

[00:01:25] I guess spoiler filled on Daredevil Season 1. Yeah. In case you haven't seen that, that's basically the entire story behind Season 1. What happened to Wilson Fisk's father? So I'll act on the table here in this episode of Echo. Yeah, it was a nice little touch back to be honest.

[00:01:40] Yeah, it was. Different hammer though. Oh yes, it was. Continuity. The ball peen hammer in this episode. Multiverse, multiverse. So the actors stay the same, the hammer's changed. That's it, that's the only thing different.

[00:01:55] You can see the watcher coming in going, what if the hammer that Wilson Fisk used was different? And this possibility is infinite universes. Great stuff. Yes, we are onto the penultimate episode of Echo on TV podcast industries.

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[00:03:00] maybe ready for Daredevil and his return of course. Yes, we have all three seasons of the Marvel Netflix Daredevil show. We do. And of course we as always love to get your feedback, thoughts, theories, observations,

[00:03:17] comments, you name it on all things to do with the shows that we cover. But shall we get into our spoiler filled discussion? Derek, what are some of the episode details here? Well of course Echo was created by David Mack and Joe Crosada.

[00:03:34] The head writer for this show is Marion Dyer. This episode was written by Ken Christensen and Josh Feldman along with Chantel M Wells. We mentioned Ken and Josh earlier on in the season as they wrote other episodes.

[00:03:45] Chantel wrote an episode of the excellent series Yellow Jackets as well. Ah very good. Yes. I really enjoyed that show. It was good. Returning in 2025 because of the because the writer strike has been delayed a bit but it's going to be away for a full year.

[00:03:59] But looking forward to the third season of Yellow Jackets. Absolutely. I really enjoyed that. Yeah. Still don't know what's going on with the spiritual stuff, but yes. It's good. Yeah, we'll see that. That's the mystery right?

[00:04:10] This episode again was directed by Sydney Freeland who directed the first two episodes as well so back again for the final two episodes. So yeah, really enjoyed having her as the overarching director for the series. Yeah, now you're getting that.

[00:04:22] Definitely a particular style that she's kind of brought to us. Exactly. Yeah, yeah. And John, do you want to tell us what they gave us with your synopsis for Echo Episode 4, Talola? Sure. In 2008 a young Maya is verbally abused by an ice cream vendor who fails to understand

[00:04:38] her request for ice cream. An enraged Fisk retaliates by brutally attacking the vendor. Although Maya witnesses this she kicks the vendor as payback. Several years later Maya is about to begin work for Fisk when he offers a final lesson. Only the two of them can trust one another.

[00:04:56] While they finish their shared dinner Fisk's ASL translator is dismissed and brutally killed. Back in Tamaha at Maya's family home Fisk and his men surround Maya, but Fisk gives Maya an augmented reality contact lens so that they can communicate without an ASL interpreter.

[00:05:14] Fisk tells her that he will give her his criminal empire if she agrees to return with him to New York, giving her one day to decide. Maya shares this with Henry who advises against it but she suddenly receives a vision of her ancestors.

[00:05:30] At the Choctaw Pow Wow festival grounds, Chula receives the same vision. Henry takes Maya to see Chula who tells her that their ancestors help them when they need it most, recounting a vision that she received when giving birth to Maya's mother Talola.

[00:05:46] Maya leaves in anger feeling abandoned by Chula as a child. Chula later begins to work on a special garment. That night Maya goes to Fisk's hotel with the intention of killing him. Revealing to her that he killed his father after seeing him beat his mother, Fisk tells

[00:06:03] her to make good on her threat if that is what she needs but she rejects this. He repeats his invitation to join her in New York but is enraged to find out the next morning that Maya has left Tamahart without him.

[00:06:16] Yes, I thought that jet plane was a goller. There's going to just smash through those flimsy politicians that you get in planes. It was a bad episode for the service industry whether you're an ice cream vendor or an ASL interpreter. Well, yeah.

[00:06:34] I have to say I don't think it was intentionally supposed to be for me but it was just the murder of the ASL interpreter. Sorry, translator. But just the fact that they were still eating away and because Maya can't hear what's going

[00:06:52] on just as the ASL translator is shepherded down a corridor to a load of plastic. I think she must have known quite soon. Exactly. I was like she was walking towards it and I'm like, ah honey. Oh, she does know. That is our five point number one.

[00:07:11] We are going to talk about the fist flashback really as part number one. So let's talk about the translator and her murder there as she gets on the door. I think she does know.

[00:07:20] She meets the security guard at the door and it seems like that's very unusual for her to meet him right there. She sees it and she does start to cry out. Oh no, she does exactly. She knows what's going to happen to her.

[00:07:31] She's probably seen it happen a lot. And you hear the comical thought. So I found it slightly, I mean, I know it's a bit dark but I kind of unintentionally found it slightly hilarious. I think for me it was an uncomfortable amusement. It was like whoa, okay.

[00:07:46] You didn't expect that to happen because is that a comical thought? That's her brains being splattered on the plastic behind her head. Maybe it was that. Yeah, maybe it was that. It's pretty brutal way to go.

[00:07:55] And it was also just, you know, it was the absurdity of them having their meal. It is that kind of absurd situation that happens when effectively mob bosses need to take someone out who they don't trust. You see, that's it.

[00:08:12] Having to buy in or pay in for external assistance, the fiscal, you know, has to sort of tie up the loose ends. Yeah, but that's it. I suppose that's kind of the interesting thing and it's kind of, it's been a joke

[00:08:23] in lots of comedy shows I suppose about this, this idea that, you know, your supervillain and James Bond movie, for example, will tell his henchmen to go and take care of someone and they have this ongoing joke in comedy shows about what does take care of the mean?

[00:08:36] Does the mean take them out to dinner? Does it mean like shoot them, you know? Pulp Fiction also made that as a bit of a bit as well. So when you have an ASL interpreter who has to interpret all of your missions to one

[00:08:47] of your effectively key lieutenants in Maya, she seems to have a pretty high role in his organization. They're finding out a lot of information about your operation and everything that's going on, right? So yeah, I think that's why Wilson had made this choice to kill you.

[00:09:03] Well, that's it. And certainly because it was the conversation of, you know, his final lesson that we can only trust each other, I guess it sort of connects into that, but there's also, I guess the other final lesson is always take care of loose ends. Yes.

[00:09:17] You know, so. And the other interesting thing here, because it was 2021, which you mentioned is that obviously Maya and Fisk were not snapped out of existence. They survived. So he could have really cleaned up in New York actually. I believe he did.

[00:09:38] It was always something that bugged me from the movies where all of a sudden, yes, I know half the population was snapped out of existence, but there was, you know, sort of shanty boatville round by the Statue of Liberty and so on.

[00:09:49] At least Fisk managed to keep, you know, his head about him as everyone else was losing it because he seems quite sort of as though nothing really much has happened. That's very much a trait of Wilson Fisk.

[00:10:01] And yeah, he could really cleaned up with in New York with all the superheroes blipped away. I am kind of surprised though. Now, I know not everything has to really be connected and Echo's sitting slightly outside. Yeah, exactly.

[00:10:15] You know, it's sitting in its own little bubble, I suppose. But I am quite surprised that Wilson Fisk wouldn't have made it onto Ronan's list. Clint Barton took on the persona of Ronan and went round the world killing

[00:10:29] leaders of organized crime who were still alive after the blip because he lost his family. That was his mission. I'm kind of surprised that Wilson Fisk in New York as Kingpin wouldn't be quite high on that list for Clint Barton since he goes to

[00:10:44] New York quite often, right? Because he was. Remember because Ronan did go to Fat Man Autos and obviously the whole thing that kicked off Echo, the death of Maya's father. Like so I'm assuming he was. He was just working his way up. Yeah.

[00:11:01] And if it hadn't of slowed down and other things hadn't happened, he would have made his way there slowly. Yeah. He was. Yeah, he probably was pretty high on this but didn't get to finally take him out. It was a long list, to be fair. That's true.

[00:11:16] That's very true. And the other thing really in the flashback here is the death of the ice cream seller in 2008. This was a pretty brutal scene as Wilson looks on as his niece. Maya gets turned away from an ice cream. Yeah.

[00:11:33] She's treated like crap because she can't speak to the ice cream seller. And yeah, I bet you regret not selling that ice cream to her. Absolutely. Can you imagine if he didn't put sprinkles on the ice cream or something like that? She wanted sprinkles. Maya wanted sprinkles.

[00:11:48] Yes, I can see it. Yeah. I mean, I thought, yeah, it was brutal. And it felt very kingpin that he would do that. Certainly for someone that, you know, because he doesn't have too many people close to him. Yeah. Maya is one of those.

[00:12:04] I do like the fact that, you know, he's worried about her seeing it. And then he sees that she's witnessed his sort of beating of this ice cream seller and she comes over and just kind of tries to finish him off with

[00:12:20] the two sort of kicks to the body as they walk off hand in hand, you know, with the ice cream seller, sort of pretty unbloodied and bruised and down on on the ground.

[00:12:34] So I kind of like that because it kind of just relates to that sort of very, you know, when we get back to the present, I like the fact that Maya says our language was always violence. Our language, our common language together, you know, it wasn't ASL,

[00:12:50] you know, I like the fact that she says you never thought about learning it. And never loved me enough to learn it. Our language was violence. So I kind of really enjoyed that. And it is that to that point, you know, to what extent Maya,

[00:13:05] even though her father wanted something different, but, you know, taken in mentored by Fisk, to what extent that embedded language of violence is with her despite all the attempts, you know, of her immediate family back in Tamahar to try and maybe have

[00:13:23] some sort of breakthrough to her in some way. At this moment, it's mainly Henry. But do you know what I mean? And Bonnie would if she was given the opportunity. So I like how that kind of sort of frames or sort of provides

[00:13:37] that baseline of where Maya is here. Yeah, for the flashbacks as a whole, I really enjoyed it. So the actual watcher in me loves these scenes. The dry cleaner in me is like, why wouldn't he just take a jacket off?

[00:13:53] He knows he's going to punch the hell out of this guy. It's just like it would have just been a bit more like scary where he just kind of like throws a guy in the ground, takes his jacket off,

[00:14:02] like shows his full Fisk physique and then beats the crap and then puts the jacket back on. That would be more. But again, it was just kind of like, why didn't you do that? There's an Indian University reason, Chris. Oh, why? Do you remember his suit is armoured?

[00:14:19] So in case the guy pulls a nice volume or something like that. I do. It's his protection. Well, there is that. Yes, same guy that made it for a for a day at all. Seemingly his eyeballs are armoured as well. Yeah, the strange thing. Yes, kind of.

[00:14:36] Or has he now got a glass eye? Is that that is the question? We will find out. We will find out. I'm sure you will. I look, I enjoyed this. I enjoyed how they bring it all together. I enjoyed how they have tightened that connection further.

[00:14:53] Throughout these four episodes, but also particularly with this episode, how yes, they have shown how. Tied Maya is too Fisk because the way it was built, say, in kind of Hawkeye was that she was a bit more of an enforcer for him.

[00:15:11] Yeah, like she was like now we are seeing no, no, no. He cared for her as a daughter very much so like he all you could argue this was Vanessa two point. Oh, yeah, this was almost like another family member for him.

[00:15:26] Yeah, it was like his wife almost. It's chosen family. Yeah, it tightens that. And again, then heightens what we can only assume is going to be from the end of this episode, a confrontation between them and the heightening that they

[00:15:42] the what's on the stakes and the emotions of that by giving us this flashback at the beginning to maybe hammer home. No, no, no, they're chosen by me. Yes, yes, I like your use of hammer home there, Chris. Thank you. Nice.

[00:15:55] I do also like just speaking of dry cleaning, I do also like that the that what Wilson is trying to do is just get somebody else to deliver him a new jacket so that Maya doesn't find it. He's beaten the crap out of the ice cream seller.

[00:16:06] Because he had blood everywhere else. Exactly. He could have just said it was the it was the raspberry sauce. Oh, there you go. Every time you punch an ice cream seller, it's just raspberry sauce that comes out. That's all that is good stuff.

[00:16:22] Let's go on to five point number two. Five point number two is is Wilson Fisk at Maya's home. I've just titled this one ASL in a work as I like acronyms. So American Sign Language in augmented reality, a new invention of Wilson Fisk because as Maya calls out,

[00:16:40] he's so lazy, he won't learn ASL himself. Yeah, I thought the actual this idea of the contacts, this augmented reality, I thought it was really cool. The only thing that took me slightly out of it was how on earth

[00:16:54] he was able to put that contact lens in to Maya's eyeball so effortlessly while she was struggling and being held down by, you know, his security. It's not like an earpiece to someone's ear. It's a contact lens into somebody else's eye.

[00:17:11] It's like he could have like completely missed and just poked her eye out or something. Eye for an eye. Exactly. I kind of thought that's what he was doing because it looked so forceful with like three of his men holding her down while he's pushing into her eyeball.

[00:17:25] You know, you kind of think he's using that violence. Like I'm a I'm a glasses where I went to Spec Savers to get myself a pair of contact lenses and they don't let you go until you've fitted them in front of the in front of the person there.

[00:17:36] I went 15 times to get lessons to put in contact lenses and could never do it. I eventually gave up and I think they were happy about it. They'd seen me so often in there. If Derek was a baby now, would he be able to learn to walk?

[00:17:51] No, we just don't know. It is hilarious. And that's terrible. But it is. It's you know, putting your finger so close to your eyeball is so weird. I mean, you know, hats off to Fisk. Bulky seemingly unagile, but he's as fleet footed as swift handed as a pickpocketer.

[00:18:12] You know, he's got skills to be able to chuck that contact lens into Maya's eyeball so deathly. Absolutely. You know, absolutely. But it is for me really cool because for me, it's that's giving her now a cool piece of tech for the future of Eken.

[00:18:29] Yeah, that is true. She doesn't she doesn't like now she has this contact lens so that she doesn't she can still hear then fully understand people going forward. And that's what seems like exactly. And ASL translators throughout the world can breathe a huge sigh of relief.

[00:18:44] They won't need to be sort of hired in by Fisk. And you know, they can sleep well at night. Yeah, the highest mortality. I'd say. Yeah, and oil rig workers. And oil rig workers. Don't be so. We've noticed a huge spike in deaths of ASL. So weird.

[00:19:05] They seem to be going down every year, particularly in New York. It's terrible. Yeah, let's let's go to so he is trying to save lives. This is Wilson Fisk's way of saving lives, I guess. And I really I did really like it. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:19:21] And then when they do, they have again, they have the sit down again, the whole aspect of the sitting there for this dinner. Yeah. You're like, oh, it's going to boil over. Like your way the tension.

[00:19:35] Why I it's why I love Vincent, not for your own so happy. He is back as Kingpin. Absolutely confirmed. He is the MCU Kingpin. That is what we're getting. He is that commanding presence, but also very much that sinister. It's like a coiled snake.

[00:19:57] Yeah, almost like you know, it's going to re-open like an attack. But you don't know when it could be now. It could be never. Exactly. And it's just that kind of he be he zooms tension in this.

[00:20:08] But behind a veneer of kind of high society and class and things like that. So he is kind of she pours down the wine and it's like a Chateau de Pouf, like 52. And you're like, I think that's enough to pop. Is that what? Yeah.

[00:20:26] I think it was a Chateau Lafette. Chateau Lafette. I mean, yeah, not certainly not de Pouf. That could be a de Pouf in the MCU. Was that your Pouf question, John? Yeah. No. OK, correct. We didn't do it. I'll just hold Pouf's question. It's a shocker. Shocker.

[00:20:44] OK, good. Good. It didn't spoil that one. Yeah. But her pouring away the wine, I was kind of offended by that too. I think she was like, look, if you're coming here to impress me, you are not going to impress me. So I thought it was more poison.

[00:20:56] She was worried that he was going to is that he was going to poison her. Yeah. Oh, my God. It could have been. Yeah. I mean, I took it as it was a little bit of defiance to say,

[00:21:04] you know, don't try and sort of sort of soft touch me with all these gifts. Because, you know, he had her favorite cookies and all this kind of stuff. And so it was like a little bit of defiance to say, look, you can drink out of a can.

[00:21:18] Yeah. Here's a can of wine. But I do I do like the kind of look on on a Lackrachox's face when he says to her, you know, are these your I brought your favorite cookies. And there is that look on her face.

[00:21:33] It kind of goes, I'll still keep the cookies after you leave. I'll pour the wine away, but I'm still going to keep those cookies there. Exactly. But the big offer from from Wilson Viscayre is literally what she had wanted

[00:21:44] in episode one, he's saying to her, you will get everything. Yeah. If you come back to her, you get the empire, you become Queenpin, which I just thought was quite interesting. So he knows exactly what she wants from him

[00:21:56] after the attack that she that she did on the ammunition. Yeah, it was quite, yeah, it was a surprise, this proposition, you know, to hand his empire to her in a sense, or maybe he's just taking a backseat, you know, ultimately,

[00:22:12] he's not going to stop the cash flows, could be named. But you know, it's quite a surprising proposition. But maybe that's, you know, I think in the end that the shot to the face, he could understand that from his own perspective.

[00:22:26] You know, he didn't as such take offense to it weirdly. Yeah. And I definitely take offense to a shot to the face. So would I, but I mean, that's that's the kind of mixed up sort of crazy reasoning, you know, that's ultimately what he has

[00:22:42] taught her to do would be to take out your threats in that moment. So he was her threat. He knows what he did. Although he does, you know, again, that's still her working assumption. He hasn't admitted to killing her father. That's true.

[00:23:00] And so in that wider sense, it could still have been a play by Ronan, by Hawkeye. Yeah. Yeah. You know, and maybe that's where her doubt is still. Was she used and manipulated by Hawkeye? Yeah, maybe. I am very interested to see how this series ends.

[00:23:20] And is she going to be Queenpin at the end? Because we do know that there is a female lead of the Ten Rings from like Shang-Chi sister has taken over the Ten Rings. So I was like, ooh, is this going to be Maya sitting down at

[00:23:35] the end of this series, like on the throne of Kingpin's empire? I may be born again is like Kingpin having to be born again and we built his empire, blah, blah, blah, blah. But in the meantime, is it going to be like, I mean, we are

[00:23:49] getting a Ten Rings series apparently. No. That was that in the works or film, I think it's a series. Some special presentation. I think it was just at the end of Shang-Chi, it said the Ten Rings will return, wasn't it?

[00:24:03] So yeah, so we will see the Ten Rings again. But I don't know whether anything's on the schedule right now, which has moved so many times. Yeah, it was in the schedule. I remember seeing a Ten Rings feature, not a film, but it was like a presentation.

[00:24:16] I mean, like one of the Disney-Pleuse type shows. But I was like, oh cool, they're going to kind of put them up against each other. And I think it's an interesting proposition. Like towards the end of this episode, that is not the case

[00:24:35] probably, but I think it would be something interesting to see. Yeah, it would be interesting. And the fact again that he is offering exactly what you wanted was quite an interesting point on this. On point number three, so he gives her a date to decide

[00:24:48] and she goes off and discusses it with Henry, who's said he's now working directly with her as we saw at the end of episode three. So she goes off and discusses it with him. And this is where she has her vision again of her ancestors.

[00:25:02] This time seems much more powerful. It seems like a massive warning from the ancestors, do not go and join Visk and lose yourself again almost. That's what it seemed like. Yeah, and I mean that echoes through as well from Henry even in the present.

[00:25:17] So I kind of like this how even those people not connected you know, to through this ancestral line that Chula has and so on and their family are effectively saying the same thing. I think this whole like shared vision between Maya and Chula

[00:25:39] was really, really good because it's the driving force that brings them together. So it's kind of you know, the spirits or the ancestors that power sort of working in mysterious ways to actually bring grandmother, granddaughter together for the first time.

[00:25:58] And I just loved how just really tense this was at that sort of emotional level. You know, in the sense of you have Chula effectively explaining to Maya about her ancestors of Chaffa, Loak and Tuklo and the ability to know when they are needed

[00:26:23] and this echoing of generations reaching out when they're needed most by people in the presence. But it's also then just the flip side of that of in a sense almost feeling like this ancestral link is broken through this abandonment that Chula did of Maya

[00:26:45] because of her father, you know, as Maya says, I was a child you disowned me. You chose yourself. It almost goes against the teachings that Chula has said. It does, yeah. And I like this because I really enjoyed it. Yeah, because it's just good writing, isn't it?

[00:27:04] It's someone that's telling you this is how you should live your life. And then you kind of reflect the mirror back at them and you go, but hang on a second, you left me behind. You're the one that chose not to come and visit me

[00:27:13] because of my father and nothing to do with Maya and what she was all about. It had everything to do with William. She had the opportunity, Chula, over the years to reach out to Maya and never did that, blaming her for what her father did. Yeah, absolutely.

[00:27:29] And I have to say, Tanju Cardinal, I just love her face. I think the expressions just in any sense how she was signing and mailing to Maya, but also, you know, that emotion when Maya has left angry at Chula

[00:27:48] for abandoning her and, you know, and she's there at the seamstresses mannequin. And I just thought it was really a great kind of sort of ending to that scene where, you know, she realizes what she's done because of her father and, you know, that abandonment in a sense.

[00:28:09] So I thought that was really, really kind of good. And I say, I think Tanju Cardinal just so, so good in this scene. Well, they both are. But I mean, I don't know, it's something about, you know, the lines on the face is just the expressiveness of it.

[00:28:27] And I think in particular, where she kind of breaks down at her sort of mannequin, where she does her seeming and so on. Is it seeming? Hailing. Maybe it's a bit of a letter. Seem to be distressing. Beating. Distressing for the band.

[00:28:44] I know, Chris, you'd mentioned earlier on in the season at the start of the season that we've never really watched that many shows that are that feature characters using ASL all the time in different situations.

[00:28:55] And this is a true representation of that in the show where you have two characters using ASL in a really dramatic scene. And it's a really weighty scene and really important scene. Sheila has supposed to have taken on board what Scully had said

[00:29:09] to her in the last episode about listening, not just speaking, not telling someone what you want them to do. And it doesn't seem like at the beginning of this scene, at least that she was taken on board.

[00:29:19] Maya comes to her for help and she tells her the story of her ancestors. She tells her the story of how her mother was born. But it's only when she gets to the end of that and tells Maya who she should be.

[00:29:31] And then Maya does react, Maya does come back to her and tell her, you know, I felt lost, I felt abandoned, those were your choices. And then she listens to the advice. She listens to what Scully had said to her and she hears it.

[00:29:42] You can tell from the reaction she has with the mannequin, as you say, John. So it's a very weighty scene to only be told through ASL subtitles and the faces of both actors in the parts.

[00:29:56] I love Alec Wilcox in this because of the emotions that she can deliver. And you can also see when she is, it's almost her version of shouting, which is when she is delivering the lines. She is signing, but then also almost mouthing and kind of breath.

[00:30:14] It's a breathly, a breathly shouting is the way I kind of describe it. You can hear her almost punctuates certain words. Now they're not fully form sentences. It's just certain words are kind of breathed out. Exactly.

[00:30:29] And it's her version of screaming and shouting while she signs the word. And it really just gives this, it's a strong, I think you use the word weighty, but it's a strong weighty scene, but almost just.

[00:30:49] It just, I don't know how to describe it like you're almost sucked in further to the scene because you are reading the subtitles, hearing this almost quiet ASM or breath scream of certain words. And then as you said, both of the actors are so expressive

[00:31:09] that you can feel this emotion coming through. And I loved it. The kickback on the words kind of and the pushback on how on the like from Maya is in my opinion, 100 percent right. When you actually do kind of get down, you're like, oh, yeah, no,

[00:31:29] no, she's right to be angry. Absolutely. She was eight year old kid and her grandmother abandoned her, you know? Effectively. I did want to celebrate about echoing through the generations. We called it. It's like, ah, that's where they got the name from. Exactly.

[00:31:45] We very much an episode too. We literally word for word. We had said that on this podcast. And so it's good to see that they are doing that. Their powers and skills throughout the generations are echoing down, flowing into Maya. Yeah.

[00:32:01] The only defense I'll give to Chula on this is that you do get this talk of Maya's father saying how Chula destroyed the family. And you do then wonder to what extent, at least until his death, I'm not saying they poisoned her against their grandmother, but, you know,

[00:32:20] at the start of this series, we see her saying, you know, you're a bad egg, bad influence, Lopez brothers and so on. So Chula. You want Chula to William. So I wonder just to what extent, you know, that separation as well was

[00:32:44] brought about by William as much as Chula, just in, you know, as another factor in here. Yeah. But ultimately, you know, not saying you're wrong. I'm not saying you're wrong. It's just another aspect to it.

[00:33:01] It is, but the balancing factor there is Bonnie, who has been able to at least reach out to Maya for the entire 20 years, regardless of whether or may a response to her at all. She's been able to do it. Chula could have posted a letter.

[00:33:13] She is a post master. So she would have been able to post a letter to her if Bonnie is able to get in contact with her. No, I agree. Chula should have been able to get in contact with her. But you're right.

[00:33:23] There's, of course, this happens in families all the time. They fall apart. They lose contact with each other. But Maya's point is if you wanted to, you could have. Absolutely. And it should have been on the grandmother, not the eight year old girl to keep in contact. Exactly.

[00:33:36] And so I was just saying. Yeah, there's the other aspect as well. Yeah. What did you think of the actual ancestor tale of this episode? Each episode that we've seen so far, we've had them opening up with the ancestors talking about the episodes called Tula named after

[00:33:53] Maya's mother, who we see is born with the help of the ancestors because Tula would have lost her as a child in a regular hospital. She's taken out into the woods with the rest of the Choctaw Nation

[00:34:04] helping her to give birth to Tula and with the help of the ancestors she's born. What did you think of that scene? I thought it was pretty beautifully shot. Yeah. I liked how it was kind of, you know, it was almost like that reconnect with nature.

[00:34:17] I loved how when Tula is looking sideways into the forest and it becomes the cave. Yes. Kind of like that kind of connection there. Yeah. But yeah, I mean, it is different because actually I don't think it's fully realized this ancestral element yet.

[00:34:39] I mean, at the moment we just know that, you know, what Maya is seeing is what Tula saw on the night of Tula's birth, you know? So we don't have that opening ancestral flashback like we've had in the others. Yeah. We do get that flashback of Viskamaya.

[00:34:57] So I think there's still, we still need to understand Tula here as well, you know? Yeah. Yeah. For me, I think the way you said it was beautifully shot. I feel it's a bit of a tough one because I don't fully, I suppose they culminated in

[00:35:23] the way that I'm like, okay, it makes sense. It's the person's time or the ultimate time of need. And I suppose because Tula was dying and so was the child. That is why the spirits passed on and gave her that additional strength. Yeah.

[00:35:44] It was just all the others have been about something a bit more weighty. I suppose that carrying on the bloodline. It's pretty weighty for Maya, she wouldn't exist if Tula hadn't given birth to Tula. It's pretty weighty for that as a family.

[00:36:04] I was like, if it was just, I suppose for me, it was just more like she was shot or something and then having the baby and things like that. Then I think it was just, but I think, yeah, it was beautifully shot.

[00:36:15] The scene where she is giving birth in labor against the tree while it is pouring rain. Yeah. And it was slowed slightly. No, it wasn't like a .5 slowdown, but it was definitely a .75 or something.

[00:36:32] Like it was just taken down like just slightly so you could see this other actress portraying Tula in kind of agony and then what would you would assume then is the kind of the ecstasy of the pain killer almost kicking in. There's the special help from my ancestors.

[00:36:51] From the ancestors, yeah, exactly. What I also kind of like about it though is that you would think this would be the story of the birth of Maya. That would be the traditional way to do this story, that it was Tula

[00:37:04] that was having problems giving birth to Maya and Maya was born under the help of the ancestors and that's why she's so special. But it's not that. It's that it's Tula getting the guidance through the ancestors, giving birth to Tula.

[00:37:20] I just thought that was interesting that it wasn't. It wasn't the you were born in these amazing circumstances and now you're a Jedi master. You know, it's not that story. It's that this is what happened to me when I was young.

[00:37:31] This is how I channeled the ancestors and because of that, your mother was born. I thought that was really interesting. So really the ancestor here that got the powers is Tula, despite the name of the episode being Tula. Yeah, no, I think it makes sense.

[00:37:45] Like you said, the continuation of the bloodline and it's an interesting choice. Like I said, like again, it's just like giving that now it does. I'm interested to see because the next episode is going to be Maya. It's called Maya. Yeah, that is it's called Maya. Yeah.

[00:38:05] So will they maybe they will show that there was another issue and the culmination is this child of. Can you imagine if they did it again? If they said if they have Tula unable to give birth to Maya,

[00:38:19] so she has to go out and have the ancestors get help her give birth. And it turns out the ancestors only just help members of their family give birth to the next generation. That's it. That's why I was saying how this episode was odd

[00:38:29] because it is entitled to lower yet at this moment in time, we see the ancestors coming to Tula and we don't know. We haven't yet seen what Tula brings. It's not really in this episode. Exactly. I'm expecting it relates to then how Maya is.

[00:38:51] Yeah, I think they've kind of changed the reasoning behind the name of the episode because Tula is the most important person in this episode. She's the reason why Maya is on the revenge street. She is it's the reason why Maya moved to New York.

[00:39:05] It's also the reason why Tula has separated from Maya and broken the family apart. It's all to do with Tula. That's why the name the episode is named that because it is about that most important character in all of their lives.

[00:39:18] So rather than it being just the ancestor story, but I just thought it was an interesting choice to talk about Tula. Great stuff. There was just a little moment there at the end, as John mentioned with with Tula looking at the mannequin

[00:39:33] with something honest and making making some kind of choice. I wonder will this be Maya's superhero uniform or superhero that she's looking at? Does she have her own seamstress at home going to make up Maya's outfit could be. Yeah.

[00:39:50] I'm going to I'm going to say like, unfortunately, it was ruined by pop. Literally before the show even came out because it was delayed. They showed imagery is one of the say New York Comic Con right last year. Or something.

[00:40:11] One of a show, one of the major kind of shows. It was Funko Pop and they showed Fisk and Maya and Maya was in that garb. Well, now I know what is that garb and Fisk was in his white, but with something on his eye.

[00:40:32] And you're like, oh, now now that I've seen it in live action, I'm like, OK, now like my understanding because it was just Maya. And I was like the whole time was like, wait, is this going to be a flashback

[00:40:43] is her hurrying a garter in her superhero uniform in a flashback or when she was a child or something now? Yes, I am pretty much assuming that is her ceremonial armor that will get imbued by magic that can suddenly deflect bullets. Leather can stop bullets type of thing.

[00:41:02] Maybe she's fast enough. She can get away with them. But I hope it matches up with her brand new leg. Yeah, that she got last week. Yeah, they're just like it's it is very much like Daredevil sees a wood.

[00:41:15] They're just getting bits of the armor over time until the end until then. We'll see her at the end of the series sitting on top of a building and her full uniform. I love it. It's that's another callback to Netflix Daredevil by this show.

[00:41:30] Yeah, she doesn't get her full outfit until the end of the series. The last episode of the series. So onto five points. Number four is a time or time. And may it does come back to fist the following day to make her decision

[00:41:43] on what she's going to do. I think you mentioned in the snops or you mentioned earlier on, John, that Maya is going here to kill Fisk anyway. And then when she hears the story and has the offer from Fisk

[00:41:56] where he hands over a ball peen hammer this time rather than the actual hammer used on his father, but tells her it's the hammer that he used. He gives the offer to her to effectively say if this is what you need to do, take it.

[00:42:10] Yeah, I mean, he says, you know, the hammer I killed him to be free and, you know, free yourself, free me effectively with with the hammer. I mean, so I think Maya does go there to kill Kingpin. And, you know, but I think she's massively conflated

[00:42:29] and that's what you get here. You know, she's just literally come from a fight with her grandmother. She she is a strange still from Bonnie and keeps everyone else at a distance unless, you know, she's effectively needing them.

[00:42:44] And the only person possibly that she is closer to is Henry. And that's because he's willing to be her backup for being Queenpin, effectively a criminal. So I mean, you know, I think she's it's the battle here and the confliction that she's got from her family,

[00:43:04] but also how that relates to Kingpin in that he became her family. He was her uncle, you know, that's how he describes her. You know, he says we only had each other. He reminds her of that lesson that he loved her even.

[00:43:19] And so I think there is that, yes, she wants to kill him to be Queenpin. She's a were now this new offer. And I guess with everything she decides against it. But I mean, I think the intention was to go there to kill him. The gun's out.

[00:43:37] She's going in, you know, literally the step of those guns blazing. Yeah. And in order to do it, but is turned around because she's in such a state of conflict around her personal relationships with me. Like their messy is what I mean.

[00:43:55] Yeah, I guess the step is a step below is safety on that. Yeah, I guess it goes in guns safety on. And so I kind of like I liked all this, you know, I like the overall symbolism of it. I think it's it's for the three of us

[00:44:13] and for any of the watches of the original Netflix stair level. It has way more weight and symbolism. Yeah, yeah, I think it is somewhat lost or less effective and be very kind of on those who haven't watched that episode. Those Netflix, my wife was a bit like,

[00:44:37] OK, that's a bit weird. I don't get the she didn't fully understand what was going like why it was so important. And it was just like, oh, he's just showing a word of weapon. But he does say that he killed his father.

[00:44:51] So would you not pick up from that? That he's telling a woman that he's calling his niece, that he's already killed a family member to release himself and now giving her the opportunity to kill her family member if she needs that to release himself.

[00:45:07] Like I know it's massively more weighty if you've watched the seven episodes. It took to reveal that in Daredevil Season One. But I think just the simplicity that's there where he's saying to her, I had to do this, I understand if you have to do this,

[00:45:22] he's almost freeing her from the blame that he should have for her for shooting him in the head and saying to her, if you still feel this is what's necessary, I'm telling you,

[00:45:33] I did it before I had to do it and I'm telling you, you have the right to do it. Yeah, I mean, I think it's also it's, you know, it goes back to an episode one where he is empathizing with Maya around, you know, that his father died.

[00:45:53] It's in this moment that she realizes that, you know, and he turned himself. I think she says, you know, you turned a monster into a hero, i.e. you were the monster that killed your father, even though your father was also a monster and but made it appear

[00:46:12] as though it was the same situation as with my father. That someone else killed him and you had to deal with it. And build yourself up into something that she's then looked up to. Yeah. And and felt that's, you know, a big point of trust with her.

[00:46:30] So it's that revelation here, at least for Maya, is the understanding that he killed his father. And you see that surprise on her. And then you see him talking about, you know, free yourself. If you're going to kill me, kill me with this hammer,

[00:46:49] you know, it's kind of poetic in that sense. And so I kind of really like that. I mean, the only thing I would say is with how indestructible Kingpin is if he went, if Maya went for cause of the hammer, it was just ping off him. Possibly.

[00:47:04] I mean, it seems like he's had that sort of armor fabric woven into his skin. Like skull. Yeah, exactly. You know, he's pretty indestructible. But I mean, that's his character as well. You know, he's that almost a superhero type strength to him.

[00:47:20] Yeah. And you know, or can be depending on the interpretation. So exactly. Comic books, certainly it is Kingpin's indestructible because he's massive. But but he doesn't have any specific power. But again, it's one of those ones he always comes back.

[00:47:35] So, you know, we see it here with with this show where he's been shot. That pretty close range through the eye and here he is alive. And asking Maya to hit him in the head with the hammer. So I think that's that element is there.

[00:47:48] But I would in terms of this story, but you know, I think Chris is right. The the the weightiness to this as such. You know, I mean, it doesn't necessarily have to be there, but there is a lot more to it from that level season one for sure.

[00:48:07] I think it works for both audiences, but it's a shame that that's Cal didn't pick, didn't wasn't able to pick it up from what was on on screen here between the two characters. Because I think that's it.

[00:48:18] You know, if you if you haven't seen it, hopefully it spurs you on to see it. And apparently the numbers are saying it absolutely is spurring people on to watch Daredevil season one to three again. So so hopefully it spurs people on to get that extra

[00:48:30] kind of jump from from watching that those seasons of Daredevil. I think there's enough here between these two characters after the episodes we spent with them to see what he's offering here. But it does kind of lead on to the final point.

[00:48:42] I did split these points out a little stretch them a little further that I normally do to get to get a fifth point. But the fifth point really is that Maya doesn't take up as offer. She walks away from him and then leaves Tamaha without him.

[00:48:55] So fist thinking he's done enough to get Maya to come back to New York with them sitting on his on his little lear jet waiting for her to arrive and she doesn't arrive. He gets a call in from his from his men saying they followed her

[00:49:12] and she's left Tamaha and not going to be coming to the plane. Yeah, but say they followed her then they lost her. Yes. And I'm like, wait, they lost her on a main road on her bike. It's like, how badly are they? Like he needs some new goons.

[00:49:30] He really does just like good. She is Chris. She can't. They are we don't know. We don't know what happened. She just kept going straight on this motorway that you could see for miles. Yeah. And we just at certain point, she just disappeared.

[00:49:43] I mean, she wasn't just further down the motorway. Maybe it's like the Simpsons one where they just turned off the lights on her motorbike and they're like, oh my god, a disappearing motorbike. Maybe it was that. But yeah, she's made her choice now.

[00:49:56] She's made her choice to leave and not go back to New York and also leave Tamaha, which I thought was interesting. So leaving the family behind effectively that she's just found. Yeah, yeah, she's going solo. Yeah. She's a single echo. Yes, that's a good one.

[00:50:11] Yes. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. I take that. She's not an echo echo echo echo. But she's an echo chamber. She's not even better. Well, there you go. There you go. But it does end off the app start with Fisk

[00:50:25] punching through his own his own jet, punching through the flimsy walls of his own jet. Hopefully he doesn't hit one of the outside walls, because I guess it couldn't fly with a hole in the side of it from a punch from Fisk.

[00:50:38] And is there any other notes, any other points from the episode you guys wanted to want to pull out or talk about that we haven't talked about? No, nothing major for me. No, I'm all good. Thanks. I just had two quick things to bring up.

[00:50:48] One was about the music in the episode. I really liked the use of Let's Go Down, a song that I remember really well from a brother where I thought he used really well in the episode here as Maya's going through the going through Tamaha was really good.

[00:51:02] We got Biscuits Back. He wasn't in last episode, but a really interesting moment because it kind of came out of nowhere. It's the other guy that he is working with, I think, effectively shows him to an entire junkyard field full of car parts,

[00:51:18] which given the ability to fix Chula's truck. Anything that the sun touches. Yeah. I thought it was I thought it was really nice. I like that. And why didn't you do that last time? I'm sure there's a reference to something else and I can't quite remember it.

[00:51:31] The Lion King. It is the Lion King. Yes, exactly. Very good. Yeah. Very good. But why didn't he do that before Biscuits put his PS4 into the pawn shop because he was sitting in the same room as he was calling out to all the

[00:51:44] truckers going, does anybody want a PS4? He might feel guilty that he had to do that. So in the end has gone. There you go. Here is your here is your kingdom of junk. Maybe that's it. Maybe that's it. Good stuff.

[00:51:59] That's it for a coverage of Echo Episode 4, Tala'a. John, what did you think overall? Do you defend this episode? Yeah, I really, really enjoyed it again. I just think it's really kind of nuanced stuff here and I'm really down for it.

[00:52:13] I give this four and a half Kingpin 99s with sprinkles out of five. I just really liked sort of. And. In a sense, it's just the messiness of Maya's life. And this is where it all comes up, whether it is, you know, that mess with

[00:52:33] Henry or with Chula and with Kingpin now, you know, the one thing were the bedrock and the person that actually who seemingly didn't abandon her. And. That's all up in the air now. That has questions over because of Hawkeye and remains so.

[00:52:58] And, you know, you have nothing resolved here with Chula, with Bonnie, where even with, you know, Henry apologizes for leaving her alone in New York. You know, he is kind of the one most connected back with Maya, but it's simply as what seemingly to help her become Queenpin.

[00:53:21] You know, he's willing to, you know, he gives her that advice. He's the one where the door is most ajar for reconciliation or at least that's already started. And I like how it's just all this mess and it's that contrast to the

[00:53:39] the stories that Chula gives, you know, the explanation around it. The, you know, these ancestors and their abilities and their their teachings and how they echo through those generations to help were needed. So I just really, really enjoy and enjoyed this episode.

[00:54:04] So yeah, four and a half Kingpin. Ninety-Nines with sprinkles. Ninety-Nines being an ice cream cone with vanilla ice cream and a big flake. Oh, it used to be a big flake. And you would either ask for raspberry sauce to be poured over it or maybe sprinkles.

[00:54:21] Or maybe just plain or both. Yeah. Yeah, or both. And you always got the chocolate stick in. Oh no, of course. No, no, no, but either sprinkles or raspberries. Yeah, exactly. You have to get flaking.

[00:54:32] Although the flake, it used to be actual flakes and now it must be, I think it's kind of like cast off flakes. They don't taste as good as a flake. There you go. The crumbliest flake used to chop those in. I hope so from Cadbury's is listing.

[00:54:46] Oh, they're just right at the corner, John. You can go and ask them. Bang on their door. Chris, how about yourself? Do you defer this episode of Echo? I do. I do. I think there's definitely, it sets up the overall series well in terms of the finale.

[00:55:02] And it sets up the potential future. That makes sense of what Echo can be or could be. But at the same point does also kind of, yeah, it feels rushed in places. Oh, okay.

[00:55:17] Again, just for me, I think these episodes range from this kind of 50 minutes down to like these 30 minutes. And just for me, it's weird. I was like, I could have done with another five or two. Actually, I don't know what it actually is.

[00:55:37] I think very much the Sima Chula and Maya, for me that I could have like in the next year, five minutes on that just really diving deep into them. The history of the echoing through time, that type of thing really just given that really its moment to breathe.

[00:55:55] It just felt sandwiched between these very kind of weighty took points kind of other scenes as well. So it just moved very quickly. But overall, I really, really enjoyed it and I defend it. What about yourself, Derek? Do you defend this episode of Echo?

[00:56:11] I absolutely defend this episode. Yeah, I really enjoyed it. I think that they're doing something really different here with Echo. And it's really part of her character. They have to have face-to-face scenes with Maya Lopez and her family or my kingpin in this case.

[00:56:26] So having to have that means that they have to do something different to all the other Marvel shows, all the other superhero shows that are out there. It means she has to be present in the room talking to her grandmother and have that face-to-face reaction.

[00:56:40] It means kingpin has to make an offer to her and she has to come back and discuss what's going on with kingpin. Those kind of things are really good because traditionally in a superhero show, what happens? You meet your bad guy, he beats her, she gets extra powers,

[00:56:56] comes back and beats him and that's it. That's your story for every single superhero show. Whereas here she has the conversations. They have the weight and meaning behind them of their connections. And in terms of her family, you have the weight and connections of the ancestors

[00:57:11] and what they're bringing to Maya, how the family connections have built out over generations. You know those stories, how they're told here and Echo makes this interesting and different as a show and I'm really enjoying how it's being presented. I think the cast are fantastic and really,

[00:57:27] I think they're all on the right game when they're all together and that scene, once again, that scene with Chula and Maya was probably the best in the episode because you had them explaining the history to each other of what should be happening

[00:57:42] from Chula's point of view and what really did happen from Maya's point of view. I thought that was really well played. So, like it. Good stuff. Like it. I think we need to go and grab a bottle of wine and not pour it down the sink, John.

[00:57:55] And most definitely, yes, fellow quizzes, fellow defenders. Welcome to the North American Bar Quiz. It is changing every week. I can't change the name every week. It's just a bar quiz. We are on to question four for this series. So here we go.

[00:58:13] What day of the week do Kingpin and Maya have their Sunday dinner while in Tamaha? Excellent. Excellent. Good one. I like that. So we didn't talk about, we didn't have the wine question, but we do have it about the Sunday dinner in Tamaha. Good stuff.

[00:58:27] That's the fourth question of five for our Echo Bar Quiz. All you need to do is put together all the answers, email us into feedback at tvpodcastindustries.com

[00:58:35] at the end of the series and we will be giving away some Echo goodies to the winner of the bar quiz. John, do you want to give the question one more time? Sure. What day of the week do Kingpin and Maya have their Sunday dinner in Tamaha?

[00:58:49] Remember, only six options for you. Absolutely. So not Sunday. There's another hint John. Spoiler. I like it. Good stuff. Let's see what our fellow defenders had to say. First up we've got an email in from Kofi and Vodka who says, Greetings fellow daddy dissing defenders.

[00:59:05] A deep one this was. A choice between two offers she can't refuse. The self-discovery in between and her seemingly denying both. He'd have had me at cookies. I wonder how much of this was inspired by the Buffy Mythos.

[00:59:17] One woman a generation to take up the mantle of hero. Finally it was great to see Willie for a full episode. Four dinners with Andre, the giant, Echo explanations and hammer times out of five peace and take care Kofi and Vodka. Great stuff.

[00:59:30] Yeah, really was good to see Wilson Fisk in for an entire episode. You know we mentioned at the end of episode three, Wilson Fisk coming in silently not saying anything just for that little moment at the end.

[00:59:42] Obviously the first episode we just saw him waking back up or still being alive from the bullet wound. But here this is absolutely an episode of Vincent and Afrio front and center, right? Yep definitely.

[00:59:55] I mean it's great having him in you know that Vincent and Afrio really superb here again. It's a character just made for him I think. Yeah I love as you say Kofi and Vodka.

[01:00:11] I think this episode is a real deep one with the choices, the conflict that occur in terms of you know how ultimately Maya sort of takes on both those offers really. Absolutely, absolutely.

[01:00:25] Excellent, yeah I like the idea that it's similar to the Buffy Mythos, the one slayer generation. So this idea that Maya could be the generational power and this current generation, I like that. Yeah excellent stuff. Thanks Kofi and Vodka.

[01:00:38] Over on Facebook we have some feedback from Patrick Lemke who had this to say, strange how they used a different hammer than the one Fisk used in the Daredevil show flashbacks.

[01:00:50] Since the back of the hammers don't match I guess he didn't hold on to that one after all those decades and just got a new one to set an example so that he'd give it to Maya. Continuity error or subtle context, you be the judge.

[01:01:03] I'm going not even continuity error or subtle context, I'm going multi-verse. I love that he like for Patrick's explanation all that has to happen is he just goes down to a local hardware store and picks up a different hammer for ours that has to be a new multi-verse

[01:01:16] creation. He was even keeping it in a lined box. Technically if it's a murder weapon there'll be some part of the DNA still on there these days would be extracted and link him to his father's murder.

[01:01:30] I was just trying to remember back because we you know we did say we've been watching season one of Daredevil but I was just trying to remember back as to whether he

[01:01:37] he did keep the murder weapon because I know they disposed of the body in the Hudson right that was the whole thing they cut the body up and over weeks the body was was dropped into the Hudson

[01:01:47] but I thought along with the murder weapon I don't remember the murder weapon might have come back in in season two or season three but I remember him keeping it so did he have it in pride of place in his office throughout all of these years or did

[01:02:00] he just buy a hammer to represent the hammer that he killed his father? Could be just like it was very clean let's just say he bought a new one because as you said representational exactly because as you say it on it does feel like keeping that weapon around

[01:02:13] since it caused him so much trouble keeping that weapon around might be a bit a bit of a bad idea maybe just symbolic you know ultimately the new Fisk family crest has just got a big mallet hammer on it. Just have a mallet hammer on it.

[01:02:27] Yes good stuff. Yep thanks Patrick. Also on Facebook Dr Bob Phillips says overall I think this episode tried to set the pieces clearly for the finale but somehow didn't knit as well for me. The flashbacks to Maya's childhood including her mystical birth in the woods didn't massively

[01:02:46] add to what we knew about her perhaps for some who have not been listening to your podcast they needed the echoing of generations to be stated felt a bit heavy-handed and the choice to

[01:02:56] reject rather than follow a pattern of violence may be too predictable on the other hand it could all be because the idea of an ASL contact lens AI system is just a sucker for raging

[01:03:08] corneal infections and blindness you've got to take the lenses out and clean them kids. Dr Bob thank you so much for that advice yes contact lenses curse or cure

[01:03:21] I have the disposable one so I just like whip him out to Allah Wilson Fisk and sort of bin him. But can you imagine if you had to put the ASL technology into each individual daily contact lens that would be quite expensive. Oh absolutely.

[01:03:38] So he created one gave it to me and no replacements no no It's just for billionaires. It's a solution to clean them or anything like that. Yeah just for billionaires. Yeah but still if you're a billionaire you don't want to have corneal infections right? Well I don't know.

[01:03:53] I guess it'd be better if it was specs you know exactly you've got the interface I guess that makes more sense. Oh sure you know I thought it was cool but yes a raging corneal infection wouldn't be

[01:04:06] and it's but thanks Dr Bob and also it's just to say so that those flashbacks in this on are for the birth of Maya's mother to lower not Maya herself and I think you're right it's I think it's setting it up but I still think in

[01:04:23] terms of how that story relates to her mother is not really finished here. I'm guessing it'll be in the final episode for sure. Yeah absolutely I'm sorry I didn't work for you Dr Bob I guess let's see how the finale works

[01:04:40] when all the pieces are actually tied back together in the end. I do feel like it was building towards this and then I probably did need an episode to say every this is how all the previous flashbacks relate to your main character you know I did

[01:04:55] I thought it was necessary but probably more necessary when you're watching it on a week to week basis than if you're watching it all back to back in a five episode

[01:05:03] dump the way that they the Disney Plus did it so I do think it was essential but I think the acting was probably what really made this a special episode for me. Who needs dumps when you can do weekly?

[01:05:14] Absolutely thanks so much Dr Bob but thanks everybody for your feedback for the episode. Yep you can email us with your thoughts on the finale of Echo to feedback at tvpodcastindustries.com

[01:05:24] or you can pop on over to our website and leave a voicemail there if you'd like to. You can also pop on over to our Facebook group at facebook.com slash groups slash TV podcast industries where you can leave your feedback on the spoiler post over there

[01:05:35] or head over and follow us on threads at tvpodcastindustries so we can make it Twitter our X. Still love that still love that I know I think it's getting worse unless of course TV podcast industries is really popular within the sex worker industry.

[01:05:52] Because that seems to be the only people that are following and liking on Twitter. I've got the yeah the random sort of followers back again. Which are just bots effectively. Every time I report something and then I just get botted. Exactly.

[01:06:08] Wait are you telling me George or Orr's born a 12, 5, a 3, 12 or 8 is not a real person? No weirdly. He loved all my posts and then told me about this amazing crypto piece. I was the only person because we're such good friends. Yeah yep. That's a disaster.

[01:06:27] Let's get rid of it. Good stuff. If you did enjoy what you hear and you want to support us don't forget and you can head on patreon.com slash TV podcast industries where you can support us for any ongoing monthly amount

[01:06:39] or if you want to do a one-off donation one head to buy make coffee dot com slash TV PI where you can support us for one off donation and just keep Derek in some caffeine as he toils away the way ours editing the show.

[01:06:54] Absolutely we've got lots and lots more stuff coming up this year on TV podcast industries we've been doing obviously echo on a weekly basis but we are going to be going into the

[01:07:05] bad batch season three the final season of Star Wars the bad batch which will be coming up later this month or later in February that starts off with three episodes and we are happy to announce we're also going to be doing another show myself and

[01:07:17] John are going to be taking on show gun from FX which starts with two massive epic episodes coming out on the 28th of February that is a huge show. Yeah absolutely and it's going to be really fun to talk about we have watched six episodes

[01:07:35] of the show and we can definitely say now we we highly recommend going to watch this if you're interested in any way in Japanese culture or if you're interested in history yeah absolutely

[01:07:44] and indeed like certainly off the back of the blue-eyed samurai then as well it's kind of you know in a sense similar era you say similar showgun sat in 1600 and blue-eyed samurai sat in 1603 so

[01:07:59] then it's the same era it's as close as possible you can get and yeah so looking forward to that I really enjoyed seeing these screeners yeah it's going to be cool. And if you enjoyed the mature rated tv podcast industries and the mature rated content that we

[01:08:16] follow well good news because of in principle season two part two is coming in March. Yes myself and Chris are back covering that in March as well yeah really looking forward to that

[01:08:28] and I'll be just watching it. Exactly enjoying it. We might sub you in again like we had to last time. Yeah exactly let's see. So you have to keep up to date with my point. I'm gonna do all the work without the reward. The work is the reward.

[01:08:45] Exactly exactly. Thank you so much for joining us. Talk to you next time. Thanks guys. Speak soon. Yeah thank you so much fellow defenders for joining us until the final episode of Echo. Keep watching keep listening and of course keep defending. Bye. Mind those contacts. Bye.