Agatha All Along Episode 7 Review

[00:00:00] This is the Defenders Podcast on TV Podcast Industries and we're talking about Agatha All Along. Episode 7, Death's Hand in Mine.

[00:00:11] Jen, I'm going to take this path toward my trial. Agatha and Billy need my help. I hope you'll join me. Why? Because you are my sister in the craft.

[00:00:59] Welcome back fellow witches. Welcome back fellow defenders to the Defenders Podcast on TV Podcast Industries.

[00:01:08] We're here talking about Episode 7 of Agatha All Along, Death's Hand in Mine. I'm one of your hosts, John.

[00:01:17] And round against the group, I'm Derek.

[00:01:19] Yes, we're getting very close to Halloween now. This is probably the penultimate podcast of this show before Halloween.

[00:01:28] Yes, it is. What a perfect way to do it. What an excellent episode as well. Wow.

[00:01:32] Oh, I love this. I love this. I know you and Chris really loved last week's...

[00:01:36] Yeah.

[00:01:37] ...I have to say this is by far my favorite episode of the show.

[00:01:42] Excellent. Absolutely excellent. Speaking of Chris though, Chris isn't joining us for this episode unfortunately. He's out at the Venom The Last Dance premiere tonight.

[00:01:51] Ah, yes he is.

[00:01:53] Oh, what a shame.

[00:01:54] Oh, fingers crossed it's good. I mean, I like Tom Hardy.

[00:01:58] I love Tom Hardy. I love his Venom. I think the two characters are great, but the amount of CGI that's just thrown at the screen in those movies that just ruins the fun of just seeing the two characters together.

[00:02:10] We do have a Venom horse, don't we, in this?

[00:02:15] I don't know. I don't know anything about this movie.

[00:02:17] No, I don't. I've just seen images of like a Venom steed or something like that.

[00:02:23] Well, I know you can go to the website and Venomize your pets because I've done that with our wonderful podcat Charlie.

[00:02:29] I've put loads of pictures up in there and turned them into a Venomized cat, which is hilarious.

[00:02:32] But that's where Chris is tonight. He might let us know what he thought of it next week.

[00:02:37] But what I'm seeing of the preview reviews, he may not even want to talk about his experience going to see in the cinema tonight.

[00:02:43] Ah, he'll love it.

[00:02:45] But we do have another couple of bits of news that came out because New York Comic Con was last weekend.

[00:02:49] A couple of really quick things, but really important for us on the podcast because it kind of takes care of our schedule coming up.

[00:02:55] Daredevil Born Again is coming out on the 4th of March.

[00:02:58] We have an official release date from Daredevil Born Again.

[00:03:00] That's really close.

[00:03:01] It is, yeah.

[00:03:02] They made a surprise appearance at New York Comic Con, Charlie Cox and Vince Tinoffio.

[00:03:06] And of course they should. Daredevil should only ever appear at New York Comic Con.

[00:03:12] It's its home.

[00:03:13] We saw them there three times, wasn't it?

[00:03:15] Or twice or three times we saw them at New York Comic Con.

[00:03:17] It just fits the bill perfectly.

[00:03:19] Yeah, definitely.

[00:03:20] But a cool announcement that the show's coming out on the 4th of March.

[00:03:23] We knew it was coming in March, but it was coming out on the 4th of March.

[00:03:25] That's really cool.

[00:03:26] Also announced this week, Tom Holland has signed on once again to play Spider-Man.

[00:03:30] He's read the script, says it's absolutely amazing, completely different to everything else that's been done.

[00:03:35] But of course he would.

[00:03:37] But Spider-Man 4 is going to be starring Tom Holland and will begin filming next summer.

[00:03:43] Yeah, I'm Tom Holland.

[00:03:44] I'm contractually obliged to say this will be the best film ever.

[00:03:47] Mm-hmm.

[00:03:48] Till he's 90, John.

[00:03:49] Till he's 90, just like Wolverine.

[00:03:52] Just like Tom Hardy.

[00:03:54] Yeah, yeah.

[00:03:55] But this is the last one of the Venom movies.

[00:03:57] Just by the way, Venom The Last Dance, that's the last time Tom Hardy will be starring as Venom.

[00:04:01] And just one final bit of news, just because it came out today.

[00:04:04] I thought it was pretty cool.

[00:04:06] Hawkeye, Loki season two, and Ahsoka season one, all shows that we covered here on TV Podcast Industries,

[00:04:10] are coming out on 4K Steelbook on the 4th of December.

[00:04:14] So they're coming out for you to own physically.

[00:04:16] If you ever want to cancel your Disney account, you will be able to have a physical copy of those.

[00:04:21] Yeah.

[00:04:22] Something that I think is really cool to have for your collection.

[00:04:24] Like, I'm a person that collects physical media, especially because pretty much all the streaming services have their streaming problems.

[00:04:30] Right.

[00:04:30] So I'm going to have an on live geriatric moment here and say, what is Steelbook?

[00:04:37] Steelbook is just a case that it comes to make.

[00:04:40] It's a cool image on the cover.

[00:04:42] I thought this was another, some kind of service that the shows were going to come out on.

[00:04:51] I guess like an iPod where you buy it and you actually have it, but it's still not physical.

[00:04:56] No, it is.

[00:04:56] It is physical.

[00:04:57] It's coming on discs.

[00:04:59] It's like Blu-ray, but better quality than Blu-ray.

[00:05:01] Yeah.

[00:05:01] And I know what 4K is.

[00:05:03] It was the Steelbook.

[00:05:04] Yes.

[00:05:04] So that's just the case that it comes in.

[00:05:05] Yes.

[00:05:06] Oh, okay.

[00:05:06] So it's just to distinguish it from a plastic Blu-ray box, basically.

[00:05:10] But I've got loads of those and I've never seen or heard them called that before.

[00:05:15] There you go.

[00:05:15] Steelbooks.

[00:05:16] That's what they're called.

[00:05:16] Because it's steel.

[00:05:17] The case is steel.

[00:05:18] So it doesn't get damaged.

[00:05:20] It has a lovely image on the outside.

[00:05:21] But I was like, Steelbook?

[00:05:24] Where's the disc?

[00:05:25] A disc.

[00:05:26] So it's a disc.

[00:05:26] A disc inside, yes.

[00:05:27] Yeah, exactly.

[00:05:28] Usually two, maybe even three for some of these shows with loads of extras on there.

[00:05:32] So that would be really cool.

[00:05:33] Put that on your holiday list if you want something to watch over the holidays.

[00:05:36] What's this newfangled thing called?

[00:05:39] Steelbook.

[00:05:40] There you go.

[00:05:41] There you go.

[00:05:41] Speaking of age, I should say, the other big thing that's happening is it's John's birthday

[00:05:47] today.

[00:05:47] Happy birthday to my wonderful husband, John.

[00:05:50] It certainly is.

[00:05:51] Yeah.

[00:05:51] Thank you so much.

[00:05:53] Although it does feel a little weird given that we are recording the day before.

[00:05:57] But I will take your happy birthdays and I will hug them.

[00:06:02] I promise you that I will wish you a happy birthday on your actual birthday as well.

[00:06:06] Absolutely.

[00:06:06] You better.

[00:06:07] But the good part about it is that gap in time when I'm two years older than you reduces

[00:06:12] tomorrow.

[00:06:13] So we're back to doing the same age.

[00:06:14] I know.

[00:06:14] At the moment, I am like two years younger.

[00:06:17] So if you think I have on Geriatric Moments, Derek has them all the time.

[00:06:24] But that's the benefit of being the editor of the podcast.

[00:06:26] I can edit out most of my Geriatric Moments.

[00:06:29] But I think that's enough talking about all the other things that are coming in the future.

[00:06:33] We've got to get on to this excellent episode of Agatha all along.

[00:06:35] But a reminder, if you do want to subscribe to the podcast and get access to all of the other

[00:06:39] things we cover, go over to tvpodcastindustries.com where you can subscribe to any Wiccan or Android

[00:06:45] loving podcast player to play any of the episodes that we have done in the past.

[00:06:49] And of course, the other show that we're covering at the moment, which is the Penguin season one.

[00:06:53] We're about almost to the end of that as well.

[00:06:55] We're about episode six on that too.

[00:06:56] So go check that out.

[00:06:58] It's a really, really good show also in the comic verse.

[00:07:01] We also want to hear your thoughts.

[00:07:02] You can email us into feedback at tvpodcastindustries.com.

[00:07:05] Only one more week of Agatha all along to go.

[00:07:08] So make sure you get in your thoughts about Agatha all along to us if you want to have us read them out and discuss them on the podcast.

[00:07:15] Absolutely.

[00:07:16] Yeah.

[00:07:17] I must say, I was really shocked that this was, I guess, another moment.

[00:07:23] I was just really shocked when it was like, oh, it's episode seven.

[00:07:26] I thought it was six or something.

[00:07:28] Yeah.

[00:07:29] Maybe I'm just blanking out last week's episode for some reason, even though I did enjoy it.

[00:07:34] But it seems like this penultimate episode has really just come rocketing through.

[00:07:41] And I think it's just because I enjoyed the show so much.

[00:07:44] Absolutely.

[00:07:44] And the fact that there's two episodes next week as well, which does shorten down the full nine episode experience, I guess, in nine weeks.

[00:07:50] So maybe that's partly it.

[00:07:52] But I will say I woke up in the middle of the night after putting up the spoiler post going, did I write episode six or episode seven on the spoiler post?

[00:07:59] Because I don't want to confuse anybody because I have spoiler posts up there for obviously every show that we've done.

[00:08:04] Yeah.

[00:08:04] I don't want to confuse anybody putting the wrong thing up.

[00:08:06] I did, of course, choose the wrong image, as I have done for the last four weeks for our spoiler post because I have no idea what's coming up in the episodes.

[00:08:13] And I definitely didn't expect this as our episode this week.

[00:08:15] Not at all.

[00:08:16] But it was a fantastic episode.

[00:08:19] It was.

[00:08:19] And I think with that, Derek, what are some of the episode details?

[00:08:23] Well, the showrunner for the show, of course, is Jack Schaefer, who was the showrunner for One Division.

[00:08:28] This episode was directed by Jack Schaefer as well.

[00:08:30] And it was written by Gaia King and Cameron Squires.

[00:08:33] This is Gaia's first episode of Agatha all along.

[00:08:35] Cameron Squires wrote episode three and was also a writer on a number of episodes of One Division as well.

[00:08:40] Well, well done, Gaia King and Cameron Squires, because I thought this was excellent.

[00:08:46] It was fantastic.

[00:08:47] So excellently written.

[00:08:49] I was concerned how I would write my notes.

[00:08:52] Yeah.

[00:08:53] And indeed, I can't say I necessarily have any logical order to my notes, given how we move around with Lilia in this episode.

[00:09:05] So excellent stuff.

[00:09:07] I totally agree with you.

[00:09:08] And I'm sure our fellow witches and fellow defenders will excuse us for going all over the place a little bit in this episode.

[00:09:15] I think the best thing is when Jen calls it Lilia's mental walkabout.

[00:09:22] Yes.

[00:09:23] I guess stumble about or bump in from things to things.

[00:09:27] But I loved it.

[00:09:29] I just think it's done so well.

[00:09:31] And I think that's the part of visually it's so good.

[00:09:37] And how to communicate that in writing.

[00:09:39] So, yeah, well done, Gaia King and Cameron Squires.

[00:09:43] Yeah.

[00:09:43] When I was watching it first, I honestly was getting about 10 minutes at the end of the episode and I was going, oh, how am I going to understand this by the end of the episode?

[00:09:50] But it's laid out so plainly and so clearly, given how complex the idea is that they're trying to get across.

[00:09:56] I think they do such a great job.

[00:09:57] And we're going to do the awful thing of putting a structure on an unstructured episode.

[00:10:01] So, John, do you want to give us your synopsis for Agatha All Along, Episode 7, Death's Hand in Mine?

[00:10:08] Sure.

[00:10:09] Agatha Harkness and Billy continue on the road together.

[00:10:13] He angrily disagrees with Agatha about his mother being Wanda Maximoff because he has a mother from when he was William Kaplan.

[00:10:20] But he wonders if Wanda is alive or dead with no help from Agatha, maybe.

[00:10:26] The pair come across a castle, the setting for their next challenge.

[00:10:31] As their new trial begins, the two are garbed as the Wicked Witch of the West and Maleficent, respectively, and are presented with tarot cards.

[00:10:40] The teen is inexperienced in tarot and Agatha has no belief in this type of con magic.

[00:10:46] But if they put a card in the wrong place, they may be killed by a sword from above.

[00:10:51] And if they don't complete the trial in 30 minutes, they will be crushed by the approaching sword-filled ceiling.

[00:10:58] Meanwhile, the pieces of Lillia's complicated life slowly fall into place as she reaches her end.

[00:11:05] Lillia has been experiencing her life out of order, creating gaps between what she knows and the conversations she has.

[00:11:13] After falling through the witch's road, Lillia discovered that Rio is actually the personification of death,

[00:11:20] something Agatha already knew, threatening that her time is coming.

[00:11:25] She awakens Jen and, after avoiding the Salem Seven, venture through the tunnels before reuniting with Agatha and Billy.

[00:11:33] Lillia is dressed as Glinda. Jen is dressed as a hag.

[00:11:38] As tarot is a speciality of Lillia's, she takes over the trial.

[00:11:41] Initially, she reads for the teen, confirming he is Billy Maximoff.

[00:11:46] But the reading doesn't slow the trial, and she realizes it is for her, not Billy.

[00:11:52] Lillia puts together the elements from her life, placing the proper cards in order, saving them all.

[00:11:58] As the exit opens, Lillia chooses to stay behind as the Salem Seven come down on her.

[00:12:04] She reverses the tower card, causing the entire room to flip, impaling the Salem Seven on the swords.

[00:12:11] As Lillia falls to her death following her unorthodox life, she arrives back at her first lesson with her mentor centuries before.

[00:12:21] Excellent.

[00:12:22] A well-structured version of what happened in the episode.

[00:12:25] Without the detail behind, I suppose.

[00:12:27] Lots of detail, and we're going to get into it in our top five spells as we go through them.

[00:12:31] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:12:32] So let's start at the start with our spell number one, I guess.

[00:12:34] Yes, spell number one on the road again.

[00:12:38] Yes, we have the teen reluctantly trotting along the road towards the next trial with Agatha.

[00:12:46] He's so frustrated and angry to have to be there beside Agatha.

[00:12:50] Absolutely.

[00:12:50] But I love that.

[00:12:51] I think the opening line of the episode between the two of them is you'll give yourself a nosebleed trying to read my mind.

[00:12:56] Yeah, exactly.

[00:12:58] Yeah, that's it.

[00:12:59] But some really interesting little kind of sort of snarky, bitey sort of back and forth between the two.

[00:13:05] But in particular, when Billy says, Wanda's not my mom, I have a mom.

[00:13:09] And I think that's really kind of took me aback a bit after the last episode.

[00:13:15] But I guess here he's still unsure as to whether he is actually Billy or William still, you know, and but is still inquisitive about Wanda.

[00:13:27] And I'm guessing the memories, the recollection of her that haven't returned to him.

[00:13:35] I actually just take it that he's trying to reconcile the idea that he is William Kaplan, who had a life till he was 13 years old.

[00:13:41] And he's also Billy Maximoff, who had a life till he was eight years old and is now in the body of eight or nine years old and is now in the body of William.

[00:13:49] And he's trying to get his head around it and go, well, who am I really?

[00:13:52] Because I remember all that time with my mom and the dad.

[00:13:55] And I remember all the time that I was in Westview.

[00:13:58] Again, he wasn't really in Westview that long, if you think about it, because they kind of time jumped the kids a few times, didn't they?

[00:14:04] Absolutely.

[00:14:04] Over the course of the series.

[00:14:05] So he was really only alive as a character for three or four weeks as Billy Maximoff.

[00:14:11] So when Agatha is talking to him as if she knows him really well, you know, I'm your former babysitter, she says to him, you know, open up to me.

[00:14:19] I'm your mom's best ex-neighbor.

[00:14:22] You know, kind of thing.

[00:14:24] But when she's doing that, it's like as if he's pulling back from her and going, no, no, don't treat me like that.

[00:14:30] Don't treat me like you know me.

[00:14:31] I have a whole family that you know nothing about.

[00:14:33] You know, it's almost like a reaction like that.

[00:14:36] But he is trying to work it out.

[00:14:37] But he does pose the question later on as to whether he is Billy or whether he is William.

[00:14:42] Yeah.

[00:14:42] You know, so.

[00:14:43] Absolutely.

[00:14:44] So I think he's trying to work that out in his head.

[00:14:46] But yeah, I love the conversation where Agatha says to him, just ask the questions.

[00:14:50] Just ask the questions that are in your mind.

[00:14:51] And he goes, where is Rio?

[00:14:53] A question we asked last week.

[00:14:54] And she goes, not that question.

[00:14:56] Ask another question.

[00:14:58] Is Wanda Maximoff alive?

[00:15:00] And she goes, no.

[00:15:02] Maybe.

[00:15:03] Not sure.

[00:15:04] You know.

[00:15:06] Absolutely.

[00:15:06] I like as well that the team calls out another vague answer from Agatha.

[00:15:14] Yeah.

[00:15:14] Because, yeah, this was infuriating.

[00:15:16] You know.

[00:15:17] I mean, it's great.

[00:15:18] Because now it's all open.

[00:15:20] Absolutely.

[00:15:21] Wanda could come back in the next movie.

[00:15:23] And here it is.

[00:15:25] You know, here's the reason why.

[00:15:26] Yeah.

[00:15:27] But it is.

[00:15:28] It was like she said yes.

[00:15:29] And I was like, oh, my goodness.

[00:15:30] That's really definitive.

[00:15:32] And then she was like, I don't know.

[00:15:34] Maybe.

[00:15:34] Yeah.

[00:15:35] And then Billy tries to get more clarity on it and asks, did you see a body?

[00:15:39] And Agatha goes, yes.

[00:15:40] And then he goes, oh, you're not very trustworthy in your memories.

[00:15:43] Right.

[00:15:43] So did anybody else see a body?

[00:15:45] And she goes, it's complicated.

[00:15:46] If you wanted a straight answer, ask a straight witch.

[00:15:49] Yeah.

[00:15:49] Really like that.

[00:15:50] Really like that.

[00:15:51] And he also posed that other question that I was asking last week in my theorizing kind

[00:15:54] of bit about what actually is going on here.

[00:15:57] He wonders whether Agatha has ever really been on the road before.

[00:16:00] He thought Agatha being there would be the key to passing the road, to getting to the end

[00:16:04] of the road, to getting what he wants.

[00:16:06] And she's done nothing to help.

[00:16:08] She hasn't provided any guidance.

[00:16:09] She hasn't really participated unless she absolutely had to.

[00:16:14] And he's looking at her kind of going, have you ever been here before at all?

[00:16:17] So still putting that question out there like we had last week, or at least I had last week.

[00:16:22] Yeah, no, absolutely.

[00:16:23] I think that sort of little moment of conversation between the two, it felt as though the road

[00:16:29] was real rather than being created by Billy here in this instant.

[00:16:34] I know that was one of your theories.

[00:16:36] Yep.

[00:16:36] But I still think it holds as to whether Agatha has ever experienced the road before.

[00:16:42] Yeah.

[00:16:43] But again, it's just very difficult to know because everything really is still very much

[00:16:49] up in the air.

[00:16:50] Exactly.

[00:16:50] We won't know until we get the last two episodes, which is only a week away.

[00:16:52] But they do come across a big fairy type castle.

[00:16:57] A fairy type castle, yes.

[00:16:59] On the top of a rock outcrop.

[00:17:01] I really enjoyed this, them going in and turning into the Wicked Witch of the West and Maleficent

[00:17:10] because they do reside in castle as well.

[00:17:14] Absolutely.

[00:17:14] I thought that was really good.

[00:17:16] I like it.

[00:17:16] The Wizard of Oz has been such an inspiration for the show.

[00:17:19] We talked about it many times in the past and Billy being there as Maleficent and being

[00:17:25] really happy with that look and seeing Agatha with the green skin.

[00:17:28] She says she was the inspiration for the Wicked Witch of the West.

[00:17:31] Both of them are quite happy.

[00:17:32] But he's very happy with it.

[00:17:34] And we talked about it last week.

[00:17:35] William's room was filled with memorabilia of Wizard of Oz.

[00:17:39] It'd be like you wake up tomorrow and you're suddenly dressed as Han Solo in the Millennium

[00:17:43] Falcon or something, you know?

[00:17:44] I guess, yeah.

[00:17:45] That'd be kind of cool.

[00:17:46] Yeah, it would.

[00:17:47] You'd be very happy with yourself.

[00:17:48] You've got the cheekbones for Han Solo.

[00:17:51] And also General Veers.

[00:17:53] Oh, well, yes, okay.

[00:17:54] You could also be a member of the...

[00:17:55] I could kind of go down into town on my ass ass.

[00:17:59] You're not supposed to want to be the back.

[00:18:00] Well, no, that's true.

[00:18:01] That's true.

[00:18:02] But to drive an ass out would be quite cool.

[00:18:04] So Agatha's pretty happy to be the Wicked Witch of the West.

[00:18:06] And you'd be very happy to be General Veers, the commander of an AT-AT.

[00:18:10] Okay.

[00:18:11] And Han Solo.

[00:18:12] And Han Solo.

[00:18:12] Both.

[00:18:13] I'd like to be both.

[00:18:15] But they are presented with the next challenge, effectively, which is a tarot reading.

[00:18:20] I really like this just to have a moment between just Agatha and Billy because we were wondering

[00:18:24] about this.

[00:18:25] How would the road progress if there's only two witches and they need a full coven of witches

[00:18:30] to go up against the tasks and challenges that are there on the road, you know?

[00:18:34] And the team kind of gets a little bit excited to begin with.

[00:18:36] He goes, well, I know tarot, kind of.

[00:18:39] But Agatha instantly is like, hang on a second.

[00:18:41] This is just crap.

[00:18:42] It's totally random.

[00:18:44] It means nothing.

[00:18:46] How could this possibly be the task?

[00:18:48] But just an interesting thing that's happened here is Billy once again starts the task.

[00:18:53] Agatha points to him and says, would this make sense?

[00:18:56] And he is, again, the person that picks up the item, kicking off the task, kicking off

[00:19:01] the timer.

[00:19:01] He's done that every single challenge, which I think is interesting.

[00:19:06] Agatha didn't start this challenge.

[00:19:07] She just pointed to Billy to get him to start it.

[00:19:10] He was the one that picked up the record and put it on in the studio for Alice's challenge.

[00:19:15] He's the one that found the Ouija board and started the task there.

[00:19:20] And he's the one that found the task on the invitation in Jen's task in the second or

[00:19:26] third episode.

[00:19:27] So he started every single task.

[00:19:29] It's just interesting that nobody else is the one that kicks it off.

[00:19:31] So again, it still kind of still plays into my theory that he's controlling it all.

[00:19:35] Yeah, no, I think there's still the chance of that for sure.

[00:19:39] I think it was just some of the way the conversation went earlier.

[00:19:43] It was like, and it was coming from Billy, but that doesn't mean to say, I guess that

[00:19:48] it still can't be that.

[00:19:50] So yeah, it could be either still, which is good.

[00:19:53] But I think you're right.

[00:19:54] This is really good.

[00:19:55] And I think part of the reason why I love this, and again, I do believe this is an episode

[00:20:01] that requires two viewings.

[00:20:03] And I think this is really good about this season.

[00:20:05] There's a number where I feel there's, it's good to get the second viewing of the actual

[00:20:11] episodes.

[00:20:12] And I think if you've been a fan of Lillia as well, like I have, I think you can watch

[00:20:17] the series again to see those moments where it looks like she has to read.

[00:20:21] Yes.

[00:20:22] To sort of begin to piece it back to or forward to this episode.

[00:20:28] And I think that's what I like about this is because ultimately what you have is you

[00:20:33] have Billy thinking that he can do this because it's easy.

[00:20:36] Yeah.

[00:20:36] And Agatha thinking that there's no skill to it at all.

[00:20:40] So she can just do it because she's this, you know, hugely powerful witch.

[00:20:45] Yeah.

[00:20:45] And is really skeptical about it, thinks it's a con magic being used.

[00:20:52] And so really it's beneath it so that she can really just do it without any thought to

[00:20:56] it.

[00:20:57] But with Billy doing it, you suddenly have these, you know, a bit of danger with the swords

[00:21:02] falling out of the ceiling and it comes to Agatha who's just chucking cards down on the

[00:21:10] table because she just wants to run the probability on the cards because the right ones must, you

[00:21:17] know, we must be able to get them eventually just by sheer probability.

[00:21:20] But they've only got the sand timer, which I presume is 30 minutes.

[00:21:24] I think it's 30 minutes.

[00:21:25] Yeah.

[00:21:25] Like, like everything else.

[00:21:27] And then you have the ceiling starting to close in as well.

[00:21:31] So I like the fact that in the end you have the teen wishing for Lillia to be there because

[00:21:39] this is ultimately a divination trial.

[00:21:42] Um, and both of them thought there wasn't any skill in it really.

[00:21:48] Yes.

[00:21:48] Um, and could just do it.

[00:21:52] Yeah.

[00:21:52] And I love how, as we go through this episode, you see, um, you know, various points, the

[00:22:01] different skill points being talked about it, you know, I think you get that from Billy in

[00:22:07] particular, you know, saying about it's about intuition picking and choosing the card and

[00:22:15] then being able to have the empathy and skill to assign meaning to it for that person.

[00:22:23] And it was really good because in this moment they're running around like headless chickens

[00:22:28] or could be because the sword's falling from the ceiling, the ceiling's closing in on them

[00:22:34] and they have no idea.

[00:22:36] In fact, the person who's, who should be there isn't.

[00:22:40] Exactly.

[00:22:40] And that's Lillia.

[00:22:41] Yeah.

[00:22:42] Yeah.

[00:22:42] I, I just, there's just that little moment that I really liked of Billy trying to read

[00:22:46] the card saying he kind of knows sort of what he's doing and he's, and he starts to read

[00:22:49] the first card and going, it's a horses and cards.

[00:22:54] And instantly Agatha's going, it's written on the card.

[00:22:56] It says chariot there.

[00:22:57] You are going to be terrible at this.

[00:22:59] So they're, they're backbiting against each other, but you're right.

[00:23:02] It finishes with him wishing for Lillia to be there.

[00:23:05] And as the episode progresses, you realize she arrives at that exact moment as well.

[00:23:08] So is there a little bit of magic in him saying the word Lillia and her arriving at the door

[00:23:13] or is it all again, coincidence and explainable?

[00:23:16] And I would pause it as again, as we go through the episode, I posit that even the tarot reading

[00:23:23] isn't necessarily the magic.

[00:23:25] It's that Lillia uses her experience and her knowledge over her centuries, puts it all together

[00:23:30] into the right order.

[00:23:31] And that's what makes the tarot reading, right?

[00:23:33] So there's an explanation that isn't necessarily magic for either of those two things.

[00:23:37] But you can also look at it and go, well, that was magic.

[00:23:39] She arrived instantly as he said the word.

[00:23:41] Well, there is a little bit of magic there, given that we see her in kind of Renaissance

[00:23:47] Italy.

[00:23:48] Yes, but it's not necessarily to do with the tarot reading itself.

[00:23:51] It's not that anybody else in the world could do this.

[00:23:53] It's only a person that's experiencing life the way Lillia experiences that was able to,

[00:23:58] would be able to solve this puzzle effectively because the puzzle is her life.

[00:24:01] Yeah, but it's like potions.

[00:24:02] That's just chefing.

[00:24:03] I mean, you know, you could argue.

[00:24:05] Exactly.

[00:24:06] You bring it together, it's just chefing.

[00:24:07] And I think that's the point that I'm seeing here because it's, again, this is all in

[00:24:11] the MCU.

[00:24:12] We've heard this thing of magic is only science we don't understand yet.

[00:24:16] And this is positing different options and different ideas in an MCU way, which I kind

[00:24:21] of like.

[00:24:21] But let's get onto it.

[00:24:22] Let's start talking about Lillia in our spell number two, Lillia's life at a time.

[00:24:27] And I think there's a certain sadness to this that I don't think you could have gotten

[00:24:30] from the previous episodes where you're going, oh, you know, you're kind of thinking of the

[00:24:34] exciting thing of maybe she's traveling forward and backwards through time and it's really

[00:24:37] exciting for her.

[00:24:38] And she's just pulling things from different times.

[00:24:42] But as things start to piece together and she says, you know, she spent her entire life

[00:24:46] falling out of time, you know, unbeknownst to her, suddenly she'd have gaps in what she

[00:24:52] was talking about.

[00:24:53] She says something.

[00:24:53] It doesn't know what it is connected to it all.

[00:24:56] So, yeah, no, I definitely I think actually I think that's the power of this episode for

[00:25:02] me is the kind of tragic element of Lillia's life.

[00:25:08] But it's hopeful at the end because she claims her destiny from the tarot cards, actually.

[00:25:14] And we see her bravery and her empathetic nature and everything that is in the tarot reading

[00:25:21] coming through.

[00:25:23] And in the same sense that her mentor from Sicily, from back in, you know, kind of Renaissance

[00:25:30] period, it looks, you know, that is saying you must remember yourself.

[00:25:35] You must be able to see it's not about controlling.

[00:25:39] Exactly.

[00:25:40] And I think it's that tragic element.

[00:25:42] And I would actually say that I think the three witches of Lillia, Alice and Jen all have

[00:25:49] an element of tragedy in them.

[00:25:51] Yes.

[00:25:52] I mean, you could argue all of them do.

[00:25:53] But I just mean in the sense that it's understated, but it's varying degrees of it.

[00:25:59] And I think Lillia's becomes the most tragic because of how you've seen her through the series

[00:26:05] so far where she's been having those moments and you kind of what's going on here.

[00:26:09] And this is her having kind of, in some ways, quite traumatic events happening where she is

[00:26:17] moving effectively through time and space.

[00:26:20] Yeah.

[00:26:21] And picking up on different conversations when being moved about to different places.

[00:26:29] Exactly.

[00:26:29] And I love that you get the examples of that being played out here from the previous episode.

[00:26:37] So I like the fact that you have, you know, I think Lillia's saying you're being wispy.

[00:26:42] Then suddenly you see Lillia saying to Alice, don't, don't.

[00:26:48] And then suddenly shifts to Agatha, try to save Agatha.

[00:26:54] Yeah.

[00:26:54] And you realize you're trying to warn Alice not to use her magic on Agatha.

[00:27:00] Exactly.

[00:27:00] Which ultimately killed her.

[00:27:01] So to stop her, to try and protect her and stop her from dying.

[00:27:08] But also to Agatha, it comes across as her saying, well, we should save her.

[00:27:14] Save Agatha.

[00:27:15] And I just thought it was a really nice way of doing it.

[00:27:17] And you get these few moments throughout this time.

[00:27:20] And I kind of just love this idea of, you know, that she is out of step of time.

[00:27:27] Exactly.

[00:27:28] She's not out of time.

[00:27:29] She's out of step with time.

[00:27:32] Yeah.

[00:27:32] And is moving between different times and spaces.

[00:27:37] And I like how that kind of comes crashing through in this episode.

[00:27:41] Without a doubt.

[00:27:42] Without a doubt.

[00:27:43] One of the other touches that I really love is her Sicilian mentor, who we keep returning to as Lilia at her current age and as Lilia as a child.

[00:27:52] But I love how unfazed she is when Lilia is talking to her about things from centuries ahead or things that happened in the near distant future.

[00:28:02] Or things about the actual lesson that she's having with the mentor at the time.

[00:28:08] She's completely unfazed by it.

[00:28:10] That she's telling her, you don't need to learn control.

[00:28:13] You need to learn to see.

[00:28:14] That is your power, you know.

[00:28:16] And Lilia must have spent centuries, effectively, except for the time that she blocked it out.

[00:28:22] But she must have spent centuries trying to work out how she can control and harness this ability that she thinks she has.

[00:28:28] When actually it is just her life running towards death in different directions.

[00:28:33] And different times at different times, I guess.

[00:28:36] Yeah, well, absolutely.

[00:28:37] And I mean, again, I like how this kind of comes to her relationship with these other witches.

[00:28:44] And that's the other thing that really kind of impacted me.

[00:28:48] You see it with, you know, that moment where she's trying to protect Alice, telling her not to use the magic on Agatha to save her.

[00:28:59] But it goes to Agatha, who in a sense, you know, I guess she's a bit agnostic about, you know, she knows she's a dangerous witch.

[00:29:11] But again, it's to one of those other readings around, you know, what's missing is community.

[00:29:18] And it's it's the coven.

[00:29:20] And I like that community of protecting Alice.

[00:29:23] But then also you have Jen basic, basically kind of wondering what the hell is going on.

[00:29:33] Yeah.

[00:29:34] And, you know, Lillia shows up and she goes, yes, it's Billy Maximoff.

[00:29:39] And you told me, you know, and she can't remember because of the way she's jumping through time and how her thoughts are distributed.

[00:29:49] Distributed through time.

[00:29:51] I love how those thoughts coalesce as you move through this episode into that coherent narrative.

[00:29:57] Absolutely.

[00:29:58] But those conversations between her and Jen are so well done.

[00:30:01] It is.

[00:30:02] Because, again, you know, Jen is having conversations with her after she's heard all the information.

[00:30:07] I love that line from her going five minutes ago, Lillia wouldn't have said that.

[00:30:10] Yeah, exactly.

[00:30:11] Exactly.

[00:30:12] And I love that Lillia says, you know, you think I'm batty, you know, straight up.

[00:30:16] You think I'm like crazy.

[00:30:17] But she explains it to her.

[00:30:19] Again, it's that notion of that community thing, you know, that the flow of time is an illusion.

[00:30:27] Love that.

[00:30:28] And I have experienced life out of sequence.

[00:30:32] I get these flashes or gaps as I did as a child.

[00:30:36] And it's happening again with more frequency.

[00:30:39] Exactly.

[00:30:40] This idea that she's out of sequence and that time in this linear construct is an illusion.

[00:30:47] And that's one of the things with time.

[00:30:49] You know, it can be.

[00:30:51] Yeah.

[00:30:51] And what is time?

[00:30:53] Is it linear?

[00:30:54] Is it cyclical?

[00:30:56] Is it?

[00:30:56] And it's both of those things.

[00:30:58] And that's the thing.

[00:30:58] And I love how that plays out here.

[00:31:01] It really reminded me of the structure of 12 Monkeys.

[00:31:05] Yeah.

[00:31:05] If you remember that, where they're chasing down something that caused the end of the world.

[00:31:10] And by chasing it down, they caused the end of the world.

[00:31:13] You know, that kind of idea because it's everything is going at a time.

[00:31:16] He doesn't know.

[00:31:16] The character doesn't know where he is in time at any given point.

[00:31:19] And suddenly he's creating the thing he's supposed to be ending.

[00:31:26] So that idea of linear time being a construct is just an illusion.

[00:31:29] It's really interesting.

[00:31:31] And you have Lilia and Jen in the tunnels as well.

[00:31:35] So the other important thing here is you still see, A, that they're alive, which is great.

[00:31:40] But B, that the Salem Seven are still making their way, tracking.

[00:31:46] And you have, you know, there's still this threat here, which plays out a bit later.

[00:31:52] And one other thing in there is there was a choice for them to leave.

[00:31:55] Effectively, yeah.

[00:31:56] They'd lost Alice.

[00:31:58] Billy turned on them and tried to kill them.

[00:31:59] They had no particular love for Agatha.

[00:32:01] So they could have just made a choice there to leave.

[00:32:04] And Jen could still make that choice.

[00:32:06] It is when Lilia says, they need me.

[00:32:09] I'm going.

[00:32:10] But I'd like you by my side because you're one of my coven, basically.

[00:32:14] Well, that's it.

[00:32:15] You know, she knows they need them.

[00:32:17] You know, they need her help.

[00:32:19] And I like that.

[00:32:21] Again, it's to that point of what's missing and trying to fill that gap.

[00:32:25] It was just so good.

[00:32:27] Yeah.

[00:32:27] Yeah.

[00:32:28] But I think on with spell number three where Jen and Lilia do come falling through the bookcase door.

[00:32:38] The classic bookcase door.

[00:32:40] Actually.

[00:32:40] Little Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe.

[00:32:41] Yeah.

[00:32:42] Into the trial where Agatha and Billy are.

[00:32:47] Just at the moment that he says, I wish Lilia was here.

[00:32:50] Yeah, exactly.

[00:32:51] So, yes.

[00:32:51] Our spell number three is the safe passage spread, which is the description of the tarot table.

[00:32:56] And that's kind of the culmination of Lilia's life, basically.

[00:33:00] Everything that she's done so far, all of the flashes that she's had have led to this moment where she needs to be here to put all the pieces in place, to put this puzzle in place.

[00:33:09] She instantly knows that this is her task.

[00:33:12] She knows she's the divination witch that was brought on board to do this task.

[00:33:15] And she tries to do a reading on the teen instantly.

[00:33:17] And I just want to repeat it again.

[00:33:20] At this point, he's still asking, is he William or is he Billy?

[00:33:24] And Lilia does that reading for him.

[00:33:26] And the first card she pulls is the magician card.

[00:33:30] I don't know whether she answers that question for him, whether he's William or Billy.

[00:33:34] But the question she answers is that he does have the potential to realize all of his dreams.

[00:33:38] It doesn't give that specific answer of you're Billy Maximoff or you're William Kaplan.

[00:33:43] It gives the answer you're the magician and you can realize your potential.

[00:33:46] You've got great potential.

[00:33:47] There's a little moment with Agatha, though, when she says you've got great potential that you can realize or you have so much power, so much potential.

[00:33:54] A little moment of, I don't know whether it's enviousness or a moment on Agatha's face where she's going, yeah, I thought he was powerful.

[00:34:01] You know, that's what it looked like to me.

[00:34:03] It looked like she was going, yeah, okay, he is powerful.

[00:34:06] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:34:07] And I like the moment that here she's really quite caring towards Billy.

[00:34:15] I like the fact that she kind of says, you know, I saw who you were.

[00:34:20] Yes.

[00:34:20] Put the sigil on you because I knew that you needed time.

[00:34:25] Yes.

[00:34:25] With what was going to happen to you.

[00:34:27] It was too much for you, you know, almost like very motherly.

[00:34:32] And yet previously she'd come in angry at Billy calling him the teenager.

[00:34:38] And Jen's like, they're going, oh, she's using his full name, which was really, really funny.

[00:34:44] You know, he doesn't know why.

[00:34:46] She doesn't know why she's angry.

[00:34:48] And like you said, Jen tells her, no, you're not angry with him.

[00:34:52] We're all fine with it.

[00:34:53] Yeah, we're all fine.

[00:34:54] It's fine.

[00:34:55] You're cool with the teen.

[00:34:56] So I really liked how that sort of fed into this reading on the teen.

[00:35:03] But ultimately the swords keep falling and there's the realization that this trial, which Lillia said was hers, it goes more than using her divination skill.

[00:35:19] It's hers in that it's about her as well.

[00:35:22] Exactly.

[00:35:22] And even the tarot table, the writing around the edge of it sort of reflects in a sense what Lillia had said to Jen as well about I have experienced life out of sequence.

[00:35:36] Yes, it does.

[00:35:37] It has a similar phrase to that on the side of the table.

[00:35:42] And so then we have this final reading, which is on herself as all these kind of pieces come falling into play.

[00:35:53] And the swords keep falling as well, as well as the ceiling.

[00:35:57] So I love that there's a bit of urgency from the other witches as these things that start to happen.

[00:36:06] Yeah, yeah.

[00:36:06] But there's also that little crystal maze moment as Lillia starts to get things right.

[00:36:12] Things are clicking into place quite literally when she puts the right card in the right place.

[00:36:16] You hear a clicking noise and it cements itself.

[00:36:18] And that does stop the swords from falling at least.

[00:36:22] It doesn't stop the ceiling from coming down.

[00:36:24] It's still under a timer.

[00:36:26] But I wanted to go through them.

[00:36:27] And I think this helped me to understand the episode well, to write out the kind of seven points, what they mean, who they are.

[00:36:33] Because this is all of the experience that Lillia has gone through over the centuries, all coming to the head.

[00:36:39] So there are seven elements that need to be completed on this table.

[00:36:43] They have the traveler, which is the central person that the reading is about.

[00:36:46] And I love the fact that that's about you.

[00:36:49] Yeah, it's about the person themselves.

[00:36:51] Yeah.

[00:36:51] So this was the queen of cups with the card that was put in that place.

[00:36:55] That's Lillia as the traveler.

[00:36:56] She's empathetic.

[00:36:57] She's intuitive.

[00:36:58] She's a trusted voice for the group.

[00:36:59] And then the second piece that has to be filled out effectively when you're doing this kind of checklist of items is what's missing.

[00:37:06] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:37:07] You know, what's the reason for this quest that you're on or the life that you have effectively?

[00:37:15] Yeah.

[00:37:15] And here she picks the three of pentacles.

[00:37:20] And again, there's a flashback to previous moments in her life beforehand where you have the three pentacles.

[00:37:28] And this is about the coven, the list of witches that she gave Agatha in episode two.

[00:37:36] But it's about what's missing here is collaboration, community, singular voices waiting to harmonize and come together.

[00:37:49] Yeah.

[00:37:49] And effectively needing, as she describes, you to those around her, my coven.

[00:37:57] She needs her coven community here to sing together like they did in Alice's trial, as well as the collaboration that her and Jen clearly have had in this episode.

[00:38:14] Absolutely.

[00:38:15] And again, if this is the culmination of Lillia's life, not just a trial, this is the end of her life.

[00:38:19] It's this moment of realization for her that she actually does need a coven.

[00:38:22] And she had that moment with her mentor earlier on where she said once she warned them all and her entire coven died that she never wanted a coven again.

[00:38:30] Yet here she is knowing that that's the thing that's always been missing to get to this point in her life, the end.

[00:38:36] The third element that needs to be filled out is the path behind.

[00:38:40] Yes.

[00:38:40] The wounds that have been suffered or the lessons learned.

[00:38:43] Yeah.

[00:38:44] And this is the Knight of Wands, kind of confirming that Alice, who is the Knight of Wands in this scenario, in this tarot reading, is gone.

[00:38:53] She was full of fire, fought bravely to save them all, saved them all and lost her life in that moment.

[00:39:00] So that is the path behind it is telling you, I think, Alice is gone.

[00:39:04] It is.

[00:39:05] And it's also about the lesson to be learned by Lillia.

[00:39:09] Yeah.

[00:39:10] In terms of how she deals with the Salem Seven.

[00:39:13] Yes.

[00:39:13] Yes.

[00:39:13] Yeah.

[00:39:14] Full of fire and bravely.

[00:39:17] That is the lesson learned from Alice ultimately dying at the hands of Agatha.

[00:39:25] Mm-hmm.

[00:39:26] Yeah.

[00:39:27] Yeah.

[00:39:27] I think the fourth one then, the flip side of that is the path ahead, which is this space then for growth and discovery.

[00:39:37] Yeah.

[00:39:38] And you have here the card that's turned as the High Priestess.

[00:39:42] Yes.

[00:39:42] And that's linked then to Jennifer.

[00:39:44] Mm-hmm.

[00:39:44] And I think that's what I was saying before about these three witches.

[00:39:47] Yeah.

[00:39:47] They've had this real intimacy between them.

[00:39:50] Mm-hmm.

[00:39:50] Mm-hmm.

[00:39:51] And to varying degrees.

[00:39:53] And that's what I really enjoyed about those three.

[00:39:58] Yeah.

[00:40:00] Yeah.

[00:40:02] Yeah.

[00:40:02] She says, we once hated each other.

[00:40:05] Now I love you all.

[00:40:06] Yeah.

[00:40:06] Exactly.

[00:40:06] Those three particularly, their combination of her being the traveler, Alice being the path behind, and then the High Priestess, which is the card that she picks here, is for Jennifer being the path ahead.

[00:40:19] She's the future.

[00:40:21] Yeah.

[00:40:21] She's this.

[00:40:22] Alice is the path.

[00:40:22] Gotham to this point.

[00:40:24] Lily is the present, taking care of everything now.

[00:40:27] And Jennifer is the future.

[00:40:29] Yes.

[00:40:29] This immense spiritual power who's either been unable or unwilling to use it.

[00:40:36] Yeah.

[00:40:36] I do think there's a good little pep talk just before, you know?

[00:40:41] Yeah.

[00:40:41] So it's interesting that that happens.

[00:40:44] Yeah.

[00:40:44] And I do wonder, you know, we said that this episode makes you feel a lot of pain about Lily's past.

[00:40:50] And there's a great sadness in the life that she's lived so far.

[00:40:54] And I still think there's a lot there with Jen.

[00:40:57] When we do find out why she's been unable or why she's unwilling to use her power, and that will most likely be in the penultimate episode next week, we will get Jennifer because she is the future.

[00:41:07] Why is she not able to use this great power, this massive spiritual power that she has?

[00:41:12] So I think that's just signposting there for you.

[00:41:15] If you thought the story of Lily was bad, maybe there's something even harder to watch coming up with Jen.

[00:41:21] Yeah.

[00:41:22] Then there's the obstacle, which are the obstacles to overcome, effectively.

[00:41:27] They are.

[00:41:27] And here we have the three of swords, which is ultimately Agatha.

[00:41:33] Yeah.

[00:41:33] Relating to Agatha, heartbreak, sorrow, and grief.

[00:41:37] Yeah.

[00:41:37] And again, these are Lily's obstacles to overcome, right?

[00:41:41] Because it's her reading.

[00:41:42] So she has to overcome the obstacle that is Agatha being in her way.

[00:41:46] Yes, exactly.

[00:41:46] To get to her final destination.

[00:41:49] Number six, the sixth element then is the windfall.

[00:41:52] Yeah.

[00:41:53] And interestingly, this is the potential windfall.

[00:41:55] That's how she kind of clarifies it.

[00:41:58] It's the potential windfall that you might get along the way.

[00:42:03] Yes.

[00:42:03] You know?

[00:42:04] Yeah.

[00:42:04] And in this moment, it is the tower, which she initially says is about great destruction or to destroy, which doesn't sound like a great windfall.

[00:42:17] But then it's the tower reversed.

[00:42:20] So it's more about miraculous transformation.

[00:42:25] Yeah.

[00:42:26] And specifically in this case, it's William Kaplan or Billy Maximoff.

[00:42:31] He is the tower reversed in this case because it's exactly the card she saw at William Kaplan's bar mitzvah.

[00:42:38] It means miraculous transformation, which she saw that he was going to be going through.

[00:42:42] And that's what's centered on this path.

[00:42:43] This is her linking up with him, which is kind of the piece in the puzzle that she needed to get to her destination, her final point.

[00:42:51] And that's the final card.

[00:42:52] The destination for Lilia is, well, I guess the destination for us all because all roads lead to it.

[00:42:58] The destination is death.

[00:42:59] Yes, it is.

[00:43:01] And when she puts down this card of death, which we'll talk about in a second, when she places that, the trial is passed and she's saved them all.

[00:43:09] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:43:10] She's achieved the goal.

[00:43:11] Well, and you have the torture device, the Iron Maiden, open up to reveal the exit from the trial.

[00:43:19] Yeah.

[00:43:19] Really good.

[00:43:20] Very cool.

[00:43:20] Very cool.

[00:43:21] And she places them inside it and closes it behind them.

[00:43:25] But as things start to get a bit complicated towards the end of the episode, as everything starts to come together, move on to spell number four because we put it as its own point.

[00:43:33] Spell number four is Lilia is falling.

[00:43:35] Lilia will fall.

[00:43:37] This is the moment of realization that she has when she's talking to her mentor and she's saying, all I see is myself falling.

[00:43:44] I am falling.

[00:43:45] Oh, no, I will fall.

[00:43:47] It's that moment where she has that recognition, I suppose, of this could be any time in my future.

[00:43:54] But it is my future.

[00:43:56] It's always still going to be my future.

[00:43:57] I will fall.

[00:43:58] So how do I get to that point?

[00:44:00] And then the jigsaw puzzle starts to come together.

[00:44:03] Yeah.

[00:44:03] The one thing I liked about this actually is just slightly after where the mentor says that death is what we all have in common.

[00:44:09] Mm-hmm.

[00:44:10] And it's what will you do with your remaining time.

[00:44:13] And I think that's so, so true.

[00:44:15] I think that's really poignant.

[00:44:18] I think it's something that I think is kind of a bit of a universal truth.

[00:44:24] Absolutely.

[00:44:25] And it will, I mean, self-evidently, I guess.

[00:44:28] Yeah.

[00:44:28] But it's when you see it sort of interwoven into the story here.

[00:44:34] And I just thought it was really, really well done.

[00:44:37] Because in a sense, it's what Lilia has been kind of running from.

[00:44:42] It's been, you know, the gaps.

[00:44:45] She tells Jen, well, I ignored it because all I saw was death.

[00:44:49] Exactly.

[00:44:49] You know, she tried to sort of take her out from it.

[00:44:52] Yeah.

[00:44:52] And I mean, even to the point where you could argue Agatha didn't think she was a real witch when they went initially into the crystal ball, tarot reading, palm reading, bougie business that Lilia was running.

[00:45:11] Exactly.

[00:45:11] So I really like this.

[00:45:13] It is just the absolute key to unlocking everything for Lilia.

[00:45:16] She'd been avoiding death for this many years, that moment from her mentor saying death comes for us all.

[00:45:21] It's what we all have in common.

[00:45:22] Why are you running from it, basically?

[00:45:25] That's our destination.

[00:45:26] That's where we're all going to get to.

[00:45:28] So when she realizes that, when she has that moment of realization that she has to die, but what will she do before she reaches her death?

[00:45:39] That's where she becomes the savior.

[00:45:41] That's why she is able to complete the task.

[00:45:43] It kind of leads into her decision as to how she gets to her death, I suppose.

[00:45:49] So our spell five is the big one, I suppose, the big reveal for the episode.

[00:45:53] Rio is death.

[00:45:54] And that's what Lilia has been avoiding for this many centuries so far.

[00:45:59] Yes.

[00:45:59] She is the original green witch, which Agatha always knew.

[00:46:05] She knew it all along.

[00:46:06] Very interesting.

[00:46:08] And you have Agatha saying, what can I say?

[00:46:11] I like bad boys.

[00:46:12] You know, she's got the ultimate bad boy here in Rio as death.

[00:46:18] But I think interesting as, you know, and again, it linked into Lilia's falling.

[00:46:25] You see then how Lilia's death plays out effectively for Rio to come and take her.

[00:46:32] You know, and I just, I liked how as they left through the Iron Maiden, you know, she almost gives Agatha a warning.

[00:46:44] She gives Jen a pep talk.

[00:46:47] And she gives the teen his magic notebook again that she had found in the passages under the witch's road.

[00:46:55] Yes.

[00:46:56] And calls that magic.

[00:46:57] Yes.

[00:46:58] Interestingly.

[00:46:59] But I suppose when you think about this, that Rio is death, and I'm going to go back to my theory from last week.

[00:47:04] I'm sorry.

[00:47:04] I'm still harping on about it.

[00:47:06] But we said the teen had never seen Rio before in the stuff that we'd seen leading up to him bringing all the witches to the road.

[00:47:14] He'd seen each of the other witches in different situations.

[00:47:17] Right.

[00:47:17] That was what we, what we'd said.

[00:47:18] Yeah.

[00:47:18] Yeah.

[00:47:19] Well, he wouldn't see Rio.

[00:47:20] Rio's death.

[00:47:20] Rio's there because people are going to die.

[00:47:23] She arrives when Mrs. Hart dies.

[00:47:25] So we saw that in the episode as them calling on a green witch, and she calls herself the green witch when she arrives.

[00:47:33] But she came because Mrs. Hart is dead to take her body.

[00:47:37] The next task, the teen should have died there, but they saved him.

[00:47:42] They got him back.

[00:47:43] Jen saved him with her power, effectively.

[00:47:45] And he came out and everybody thought he was dead because he was stabbed in the stomach at Alice's trial.

[00:47:51] Yeah.

[00:47:51] So they saved him.

[00:47:52] They saved him there.

[00:47:53] Then it went on.

[00:47:55] She followed along because death was imminent again.

[00:47:57] In the next trial, Alice was going to die.

[00:48:00] And then she stayed with Alice because nobody was going to die afterwards.

[00:48:04] Billy comes out.

[00:48:05] He knocks Agatha off the road.

[00:48:07] Agatha's still alive.

[00:48:08] And Jen and Lilia have fallen through the road.

[00:48:11] And none of the three of them died.

[00:48:13] So that's why Rio's not there.

[00:48:14] Right?

[00:48:15] Yeah.

[00:48:15] But Rio does appear when Lilia's going towards the next trial because Rio's following death, effectively.

[00:48:22] She's following the next victim on the road.

[00:48:25] Yes.

[00:48:25] I think.

[00:48:26] That's my theory, anyway.

[00:48:27] Yeah.

[00:48:27] No, I think so.

[00:48:28] I think probably if you look at it, there'll be this thing whereby, yeah, she's only there for that, absolutely.

[00:48:36] Or even something to do with the teen.

[00:48:38] And I think that's right.

[00:48:40] That's why she's been missing.

[00:48:41] Because actually, this is the next trial after Alice's death.

[00:48:46] So, yeah, I think you're right in that.

[00:48:48] She's just there for death.

[00:48:49] But she just tagged along.

[00:48:52] Quite literally, we saw in the flashback to the two of them having that conversation in the recording studio, Rio saying to Agatha, you take the power, I'll take the bodies.

[00:49:00] And that's what she's here for.

[00:49:01] She's taken each of the bodies as we've been going along.

[00:49:05] So Lilia's the next body.

[00:49:06] Yeah.

[00:49:07] That's why she was there to follow Lilia into the trial.

[00:49:10] Or that's how Lilia found out that Rio's death.

[00:49:12] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:49:13] But I also love, you know, her final line to Jen saying, you have to go ahead.

[00:49:19] Jen trying to get Lilia to leave the trial.

[00:49:22] She says to Jen, but you're the way forward.

[00:49:24] You're the future, effectively.

[00:49:26] So you have to go.

[00:49:27] My space is here.

[00:49:28] And then tells her, I love being a witch.

[00:49:30] I just think that's a lovely final moment for her.

[00:49:32] It is. It's really good.

[00:49:34] I mean, I found this actually really emotional.

[00:49:36] Yeah.

[00:49:36] I think Patti LuPan, like, is just amazing.

[00:49:40] She is truly fantastic.

[00:49:43] And I think they all are in terms of how they deal.

[00:49:46] But I think there's really quite sort of epic, emotionally epic feel to this story.

[00:49:53] I think certainly with Jennifer and Lilia.

[00:49:56] Yeah.

[00:49:56] I love the fact that, you know, in all these cases, elements of that tarot reading, maybe not all of them are coming into play.

[00:50:03] As I say, yes, you have death happening there.

[00:50:06] You have those moments with Agatha, the teen, and with Jen.

[00:50:13] And, you know, in a sense, his notebook is the thing that will make him truly transform, you know?

[00:50:19] Yeah.

[00:50:19] It's understanding who she actually is.

[00:50:24] As that traveler.

[00:50:26] I love the fact that then it's also her going in bravely to fight the Salem Seven here.

[00:50:33] You know, as she says, as she closes the door behind Jen, she says, you know, when you complete a trial, you shouldn't overstay.

[00:50:40] You're welcome.

[00:50:40] Or something terrible happens.

[00:50:42] The tower upright.

[00:50:45] And you get the disaster and destruction and upheaval that she had initially said on the tower.

[00:50:53] And you have this fantastic moment where she's hanging on to the edge of the tarot table whilst the Salem Seven fall onto the sword-studded ceiling.

[00:51:09] And then you have Lilia falling as well, as she knew she would.

[00:51:14] And then it kind of almost comes full circle to back with her mentor right at the start as they're about to read the tea leaves.

[00:51:25] I think it's fabulous just to have that final almost silent moment as she approaches the table for what we now know as we've seen the episode.

[00:51:33] It was her first lesson with her mentor.

[00:51:36] Really cool.

[00:51:36] Really, really good.

[00:51:37] Really, really good.

[00:51:39] It was cool to have the Salem Seven come in here.

[00:51:41] Interesting that she's taken them all out.

[00:51:42] Now, I will say just a quick note.

[00:51:45] There's only five of them that we see dying.

[00:51:47] There are seven of them in the room.

[00:51:49] But I did watch it a couple of times today.

[00:51:52] There's only five of them that died.

[00:51:53] I don't know whether it means anything at all or whether there's two that escaped or not or whether it's just simply having seven bodies smacking into swords might be a bit much for the show itself.

[00:52:02] The noise is only five sort of as they're impaled.

[00:52:35] Yes, exactly.

[00:52:36] The Salem Seven.

[00:52:37] Is it Rio?

[00:52:38] Who knows?

[00:52:39] I'm guessing it's Rio.

[00:52:41] Well, yeah.

[00:52:42] It could be the Salem Seven if some of them survived.

[00:52:46] Yeah, because there are some that aren't animals.

[00:52:49] So maybe that's something different.

[00:52:51] There's the raven, isn't there?

[00:52:52] There's also the raven that could just presumably transform back to the raven and fly.

[00:52:57] Yeah.

[00:52:57] Which would be quite useful in that situation.

[00:53:01] But I think it's more the fact that you absolutely see seven in the room.

[00:53:06] You see seven falling.

[00:53:08] But you only see five at the end.

[00:53:10] And you only get five noises of the impaling.

[00:53:12] So who knows?

[00:53:14] But, yeah.

[00:53:15] It's just to mention it.

[00:53:16] A couple of little notes at the end of the episode.

[00:53:18] A couple of things we didn't talk about.

[00:53:20] One that just popped into my head there as well.

[00:53:23] William Kaplan has actually avoided death.

[00:53:26] Just to point that out.

[00:53:27] William Kaplan was killed in the car crash.

[00:53:30] And I would guess that because in this world here we're saying Rio's a witch, right?

[00:53:36] So he would have been protected from being taken by death.

[00:53:41] Then Billy Maximoff went into the body.

[00:53:44] So for three years he maybe has been hiding from death because of the sigil that Lillia put on him.

[00:53:49] So maybe that's part of it.

[00:53:52] Maybe that's part of the story.

[00:53:54] Yeah, it almost sounds a bit like Dead Boy Detectives.

[00:53:57] Yeah.

[00:53:57] In that sense.

[00:53:58] Yeah.

[00:53:59] Because I had the same idea with Billy as well.

[00:54:02] Because, and this is why Rio's there sort of licking her lips.

[00:54:06] Because it's all just so tantalizing that, you know, she'll be able to finally sort of take the body of William Kaplan.

[00:54:15] But equally, I was just wondering like the spirit.

[00:54:18] Yeah.

[00:54:18] I know, you know, of Billy inside him.

[00:54:21] Yeah.

[00:54:21] Exactly.

[00:54:21] There's almost like a two for one deal here for death.

[00:54:24] Because there's one conversation that Billy has with Lillia.

[00:54:27] And, you know, we know that part of his power is that he reads minds.

[00:54:29] But we don't hear Lillia's side of the conversation.

[00:54:32] We just hear him, you know, picking up on the thing, questions she's asking.

[00:54:36] Yeah.

[00:54:36] And what he says to her is, I wasn't hiding my power when Alice died.

[00:54:39] If I had known that I had this power, I would have absolutely used it to save Alice's life.

[00:54:44] So, up until that point, the point that Alice died, Billy Maximoff didn't know he was Billy Maximoff, didn't know he had the power, and didn't know whether he was Billy Maximoff or William Kaplan himself.

[00:54:56] You know?

[00:54:56] So, I just think, yes, the kind of side effect of the sigil that Lillia put on William Kaplan was that he was hidden from death.

[00:55:06] And as you say, maybe both of them are hidden from death for that.

[00:55:09] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:55:10] And if the next two episodes of The Big Story is Rio's death, which I think it is, we now have our big bad.

[00:55:14] The big bad is the personification of death.

[00:55:17] A bigger bad you don't really get, right?

[00:55:19] Yeah, no, you're absolutely right, yeah.

[00:55:21] Yeah, yeah.

[00:55:22] I only have one more note, just because I really like the insult from Agatha.

[00:55:25] Yes.

[00:55:25] She's been flying with insults throughout the episode.

[00:55:28] She has.

[00:55:28] But I really liked where she calls Lillia Dory after Dory from Finding Nemo, and Finding Dory, because she's a forgetful fish.

[00:55:37] Yeah.

[00:55:37] Yeah, I thought that was a good little joke.

[00:55:38] No, that was a good little joke.

[00:55:40] Yeah, I like that.

[00:55:41] If you're going to keep Catherine Han off screen or not central to the episode, give her a couple of lines like that to keep us excited for.

[00:55:48] Absolutely.

[00:55:49] Absolutely.

[00:55:50] Yeah, I have no more notes for the episode.

[00:55:54] Derek, do you defend Agatha all along episode seven?

[00:56:00] Absolutely.

[00:56:01] This episode was fantastic.

[00:56:02] Yeah, I think you're right, best of the season.

[00:56:04] And that's a really positive thing for me, because I loved episode six, and I really liked episode five.

[00:56:08] And I thought the episodes leading up to it were really good before that, were good and fun each week.

[00:56:13] But if the episodes are getting better and better each week, with two more episodes to go, what a great way to lay up the finale, the two-episode finale next week.

[00:56:24] So I am really excited to see how they're going to tell this final story of Jen, the final witch, what's going to happen with her.

[00:56:31] But this episode was so well written, was so well directed, was beautiful to watch, and was structured so well that from the start, I thought I was going to be confused.

[00:56:40] But by the end, I had everything pieced together and understood all of it.

[00:56:43] There was no missing scenes for me now.

[00:56:45] And everything in the past with Lilia had been explained really well all the previous episodes.

[00:56:48] So I think they did a brilliant job with this episode.

[00:56:51] Absolutely loved it.

[00:56:52] We'll definitely be watching the whole season again.

[00:56:55] After watching this episode, I want to watch the whole season again.

[00:56:57] So I'll wait one week, and then I can watch the full nine episodes.

[00:57:01] How about yourself, John?

[00:57:02] Do you defend Agatha all along episode seven?

[00:57:04] I really do defend episode seven of Agatha all along.

[00:57:09] I love this.

[00:57:09] I'd give it five wispy witches out of five.

[00:57:13] I think Patti LuPont is tour de force here.

[00:57:16] I just loved her story.

[00:57:18] Yeah.

[00:57:19] Tragic, hopeful, memorable, just really good.

[00:57:24] I just loved how it connected in with the previous episodes.

[00:57:27] I love how it connected in with the team, with Jen, with Agatha, with Alice as well.

[00:57:34] Yeah.

[00:57:34] You know, I was kind of a bit bummed out that Alice died along the way, and even Mrs. Hart.

[00:57:41] But I think as time goes on, it's Alice's one that kind of resonates with me, and now Lillia's as well.

[00:57:49] But I think it's just, you know, so many shows try and avoid death.

[00:57:53] This one has death stalking the witches on the road.

[00:57:58] Absolutely.

[00:57:59] I really, really like it.

[00:58:00] I think it's really good.

[00:58:01] And I just think this is great, great story writing, how it connects in.

[00:58:10] And as I said up front at the start, you know, fur juice to the two writers of this episode,

[00:58:18] Gaia King and Cameron Squires, because I just loved how the cadence of this episode,

[00:58:28] I loved how it moved between Lillia's present, her past, her random jumps in time throughout.

[00:58:36] And I think there's so many good quotes in this episode.

[00:58:40] And, you know, the tarot motif of understanding Lillia, I just thought was exceptionally done in this episode.

[00:58:50] And I do think, I think this has been the best episode of the show so far.

[00:58:56] So hats off.

[00:58:58] Yeah, for me, this is like five wispy witches out of five.

[00:59:01] You know, the story fitted, was like fitted cheekbones.

[00:59:07] Absolutely.

[00:59:08] High cheekbones.

[00:59:09] Yes.

[00:59:10] We should also say definitely a lot of praise should be going to Jack Schaefer here as a showrunner for this show,

[00:59:15] the showrunner for WandaVision.

[00:59:16] Think she's done it again.

[00:59:18] I didn't think it was possible.

[00:59:19] She's delivered an incredible episode of the show as the director of this specific episode,

[00:59:23] but as the guiding hand behind it all, you know, putting those pieces in place throughout the last six episodes

[00:59:29] so that this episode can, you know, burst out of the doors.

[00:59:33] Done a great job as well.

[00:59:34] So good.

[00:59:35] Really good.

[00:59:36] Oh, let's go for raised toast.

[00:59:38] Oh, Lilia.

[00:59:39] Let's go to the local cauldron, John.

[00:59:41] Yes, let's do that indeed.

[00:59:44] Fellow defenders, fellow quizzers.

[00:59:46] Yes, it is the cauldron quiz for Agatha all along.

[00:59:51] It's episode seven.

[00:59:52] And in the spirit of Halloween, boo.

[00:59:55] It's question seven.

[00:59:57] Here we go.

[00:59:58] In the divination trial, what does the writing on the edge of the tarot tabletop say?

[01:00:06] I thought you were avoiding saying that when we went through your points.

[01:00:08] I did.

[01:00:09] Well done.

[01:00:10] Well done.

[01:00:11] Do you want to give the question another time there?

[01:00:13] Yes.

[01:00:14] In the divination trial, what does the writing on the edge of the tarot tabletop say?

[01:00:20] Very cool.

[01:00:21] That's question seven of nine questions.

[01:00:24] Two more to go.

[01:00:25] All you need to do at the end of the season, if you gather together all the correct answers,

[01:00:29] email us into feedback at tvpodcastindustries.com with all the correct answers.

[01:00:33] And you can be able to chance of getting your hands on some Agatha goodies.

[01:00:36] Oh, I saw a very cool Agatha all along hoodie, which is available from the Disney store.

[01:00:42] So that's one I'm circling at the moment.

[01:00:44] It will depend on whether that's something that can go out to the person who does get all the questions right

[01:00:49] and does come out of the hat as the winner of our Agatha all along Colton quiz questions as to what I can get.

[01:00:55] But it's a cool hoodie.

[01:00:57] Absolutely.

[01:00:58] Yeah.

[01:00:58] It looks really good.

[01:00:59] Yeah.

[01:00:59] But if you have missed any of the questions so far, pop on over to our website at tvpodcastindustries.com.

[01:01:04] There's a pub quiz section there that has all the questions of the pub quizzes going on at the moment.

[01:01:09] Good stuff.

[01:01:10] Let us get into our feedback section, fellow defenders.

[01:01:15] First up, we received a few pieces of feedback after we had recorded episode six.

[01:01:21] First up, Matt Schmidt, who says,

[01:01:24] Hello, all.

[01:01:25] Love the podcast.

[01:01:26] While I was combing through episode six of Agatha all along,

[01:01:29] I noticed that Billy's left earring appears to be a tiny black heart.

[01:01:34] I love the idea that it has been hiding in plain sight all along.

[01:01:39] Keep up the good work.

[01:01:40] Looking forward to hearing your thoughts on the rest of the series, Matt.

[01:01:46] Well, I like that.

[01:01:47] That's very cool.

[01:01:48] That could be a gift from Eddie, maybe, the black heart,

[01:01:50] because that's what he texts to Billy on the text.

[01:01:53] Yeah, absolutely.

[01:01:53] Maybe that was a little gift.

[01:01:54] He gave him a little earring.

[01:01:56] That's a great spot, Matt, for sure.

[01:01:58] You have been combing the episode.

[01:02:00] It's very impressive.

[01:02:01] You have, indeed.

[01:02:02] Thanks, Matt.

[01:02:02] And thanks for your email.

[01:02:03] Good stuff.

[01:02:04] Thanks, Matt.

[01:02:05] We also got an email in from The Joyful Baker, who said,

[01:02:08] Hey there, guys.

[01:02:08] I just found your podcast with the release of Agatha all along,

[01:02:11] and I enjoy all your hopeful opinions and insights into the Marvel universe and beyond.

[01:02:15] I started re-watching WandaVision today so that I can follow along with your earlier episodes.

[01:02:19] The Marvel magic verse is my jam.

[01:02:22] I have a few questions for you, and I would like to preempt by saying that I did not grow up reading comic books.

[01:02:27] The only brush at Marvel I had growing up prior to all the movies was the occasional cartoon and pop reference.

[01:02:32] So Wanda is the Scarlet Witch, and Rio is the Green Witch.

[01:02:36] Are these honorific titles based on their power, achievement of power, or a type of lineage title?

[01:02:42] Or are they just a superhero type name?

[01:02:44] Was there a Scarlet Witch before Wanda was the Scarlet Witch?

[01:02:47] Is there any sort of history alluded to in the comics or other sources?

[01:02:51] Thank you, The Joyful Baker.

[01:02:52] Thanks very much for the email.

[01:02:53] Thank you so much, Joyful Baker.

[01:02:56] I love the handle.

[01:02:58] That's a cool handle.

[01:02:59] Very cool handle.

[01:03:00] And it's a bit complicated in the comics.

[01:03:02] They've streamlined it for the MCU.

[01:03:04] And in the MCU, it's almost like they're saying that Wanda Maximoff is the prophesied Scarlet Witch.

[01:03:12] Yes.

[01:03:13] The Green Witch that's referred to here from Rio, that's actually a bit of a joke as we learn in this.

[01:03:18] Rio's actually death.

[01:03:19] So I think she arrived to take the body of Mrs. Hart, and then when they all said,

[01:03:25] are you the Green Witch we've been calling on?

[01:03:27] She jokingly went, yes, I'm the Green Witch.

[01:03:29] You know, the emblem of death.

[01:03:31] Everything returns to the earth, basically.

[01:03:33] So I think that was the joke.

[01:03:35] But there's not a title of the Green Witch in the comic books.

[01:03:37] That's not a title.

[01:03:39] Unless there's something in sort of, I guess, the law of magic or witches, I'm not entirely sure.

[01:03:47] It's certainly not a comic book thing as such.

[01:03:49] I'm kind of thinking, yeah, exactly.

[01:03:51] Like, I'm kind of thinking a bit like with Tolkien, you have like the Grey Wizards and the Blue Wizards and the White Wizards.

[01:03:59] And it's a bit like here where you've got the Protector Witch, you've got the Divination Witch, and you've got the Green Witch.

[01:04:07] So whether it's along those, but yeah, certainly, yeah, in terms of the comics, it's not a comic character as far as I'm aware.

[01:04:16] And it's like you say, it's almost a bit like there's, you know, in some ways maybe it's a bit multiple meanings in that,

[01:04:23] like with Agatha's appearance in Episode 7 today, that sort of Wizard of Oz, the Wicked Witch of the West with the green skin.

[01:04:36] Yeah, it can be exactly like that.

[01:04:38] But I suppose in the comic books, as I say, it's much more complicated because the character of the Scarlet Witch, for example,

[01:04:44] was created back in the 60s, a really early comic book character around the time of the X-Men being created.

[01:04:49] So she's been around for absolutely decades.

[01:04:52] Her origin story's changed multiple, multiple times, including the fact that the Scarlet Witch is kind of part of the Maximoff family and it runs down her family line.

[01:05:01] So there have been Scarlet Wiccans or Scarlet Wizards.

[01:05:04] And her mother was a Scarlet Witch before she took on the mantle of being a Scarlet Witch.

[01:05:09] It's all quite complicated and has been going on for many, many years.

[01:05:12] And Marvel just released a run of comic books where they had all of these characters that were legacy characters,

[01:05:18] characters that have been around for hundreds of thousands of years from the dawn of man that have similar titles to their current existing heroes.

[01:05:25] So Scarlet Witch wasn't one of them.

[01:05:28] We had characters like the Black Panther going back thousands and thousands and thousands of years.

[01:05:33] We had Iron Fist going back thousands and thousands of years.

[01:05:36] But it doesn't mean that they can't put a Scarlet Witch going back thousands and thousands of years.

[01:05:41] So that's how comic books worked.

[01:05:43] It depends on when you pick up your run and when you start it and who's writing it as to what backstory they take.

[01:05:49] So it's a bit more complicated, much more streamlined in the MCU.

[01:05:52] In the MCU, there is one Scarlet Witch and that Scarlet Witch is Wanda Maximoff at the moment.

[01:05:57] But Billy Maximoff could have the power of a Scarlet Witch because he's part of her family.

[01:06:01] There you go.

[01:06:02] That's what I'd say.

[01:06:04] I like that.

[01:06:05] Yeah, no, good stuff, I think.

[01:06:06] And great question, the joyful bacon.

[01:06:09] Absolutely.

[01:06:09] I'm delighted you're going back on our WandaVision coverage as well.

[01:06:12] Absolutely.

[01:06:12] Great show, WandaVision.

[01:06:14] Yeah.

[01:06:15] Yeah.

[01:06:15] Thanks so much, the joyful baker.

[01:06:18] Absolutely.

[01:06:18] Thank you.

[01:06:19] We also got an email from Coffee and Vodka for episode 7 saying,

[01:06:23] Greetings, fellow death-dealing defenders.

[01:06:27] So many feels.

[01:06:28] Lillia's life lesson in an end of time, out of mind cycle, complete with her hero's moment.

[01:06:35] Agatha seemed to be properly put on a back burner as Patti Lupeau and own this with not just the characters, but the actors behind the roles.

[01:06:44] Mm-hmm.

[01:06:45] Respectfully giving her her due.

[01:06:47] As much as I miss Deborah Jo, this one makes me hope that the finale doesn't have the coven return to life, cheapening Lillia's sacrifice.

[01:06:56] Easily my favorite episode so far.

[01:06:59] Five Sish Kebab sisters, wicked witches of Westview, patient patrons, and Maleficent Billy's out of five.

[01:07:09] Peace and take care, coffee and vodka.

[01:07:12] Oh, I do like a good Sish Kebab.

[01:07:14] Sish Kebab sisters.

[01:07:16] I'm getting the taste now.

[01:07:17] You know, I think if Coffee and Vodka could give us seven out of seven for this episode, so it'd be seven Sish Kebab sisters out of seven.

[01:07:26] But maybe he's referring to the fact that only five times.

[01:07:28] Exactly.

[01:07:29] There you go.

[01:07:30] I like it.

[01:07:30] I like it.

[01:07:32] That's really good.

[01:07:32] No, I totally agree with you.

[01:07:34] It felt like this was the episode that you give to Patti Lupeau and have her anchor it.

[01:07:38] She's such a good actress and has been in a number of shows we talked about right at the start.

[01:07:43] She's been in a number of shows that we've watched in the past and had so many great episodes like Penny Dreadful.

[01:07:48] Absolutely fantastic in that.

[01:07:50] And my most memorable ones of her is where she's been a witch.

[01:07:53] Yeah, there you go.

[01:07:54] There we go.

[01:07:55] Yes.

[01:07:55] Yes.

[01:07:55] Penny Dreadful in this.

[01:07:57] Yeah.

[01:07:57] Exactly.

[01:07:58] Great stuff.

[01:07:58] Thanks, Coffee and Vodka.

[01:07:59] Let's pop on over to our Facebook group at facebook.com slash groups slash TV podcast industries.

[01:08:04] First up, Courtney McLean says,

[01:08:06] Pure Shakespeare, Coup de Grace, Chef's Kiss, Olé, Olé, Olé.

[01:08:11] The writers outdid themselves an absolutely exquisite piece of art.

[01:08:15] How there are still two episodes to go is beyond me.

[01:08:17] Absolutely, Courtney.

[01:08:19] Great points, Courtney.

[01:08:20] Yeah.

[01:08:20] I completely agree.

[01:08:22] Such a great episode.

[01:08:24] Totally with you.

[01:08:25] Also up, Paul Qian Shi Li says,

[01:08:29] I guess we don't need to cut out all the bits in the previous episodes where Lillia gets weird and try to piece them together in coherent sentences.

[01:08:38] Amazingly, the second shortest episode of the season, but stuffed so full of character details.

[01:08:43] I'm slightly miffed that we don't get a full fight, fight, fight with The Seven,

[01:08:48] but it very much tracks with the show's intent of focusing on the traumas of each of the main characters.

[01:08:54] Yes.

[01:08:55] Totally agree.

[01:08:57] And totally agree, Paul.

[01:08:59] I love that idea.

[01:09:01] And I do think like, I think that's why I've been drawn into Jen, Alice and Lillia.

[01:09:07] The mystery around it.

[01:09:08] I mean, in a sense, you know, for better or for worse, with Agatha, you've had WandaVision.

[01:09:14] WandaVision, you know, that kind of journey and the reason why she's on this road.

[01:09:20] And in some cases you kind of go, well, Agatha, is she just doing it for selfish reasons?

[01:09:25] Even though we've got the thing around her son.

[01:09:29] And then with the teen, it's like, it's a self-discovery moment, but it's still early on.

[01:09:37] He can make his life, you know?

[01:09:39] And I think here we have three very ancient witches in Alice, Lillia and Jen.

[01:09:44] Yeah.

[01:09:45] And it's just, it's been the intrigue to begin with as to why they've been brought along on the road,

[01:09:51] their own trials.

[01:09:53] Yeah.

[01:09:53] And how they have played out.

[01:09:56] And I think really in this, you know, Lillia has been given the full trial,

[01:10:01] like the full episode to deal with the trauma.

[01:10:05] And it was just so good.

[01:10:07] So, yeah, absolutely.

[01:10:09] Totally agree with you, Paul.

[01:10:11] Yeah, I agree with you as well, Paul.

[01:10:12] Great points.

[01:10:13] Something that's just popped into my head there.

[01:10:15] I wonder if, you know, Agatha kind of covers up her backstory.

[01:10:19] We don't really know much about her.

[01:10:20] I presume we're going to get an episode about Agatha and why she's really here and her history.

[01:10:26] That's why we have two episodes left.

[01:10:27] One for Jen, one for Agatha.

[01:10:28] That's what I think.

[01:10:29] Do you think it's true that she had a relationship with death, now that we know that Rio is death,

[01:10:35] that she had a relationship with death?

[01:10:37] Or is that covering up what really happened, that her son was taken, Nicholas Scratch,

[01:10:42] her son was taken by death?

[01:10:44] Did she make a deal with death?

[01:10:46] I think, yeah.

[01:10:46] And the deal is she would give them bodies.

[01:10:49] She would give death bodies.

[01:10:51] She would give them powerful bodies and maybe have Nicholas Scratch return to her

[01:10:55] and have her son return to her.

[01:10:57] Is that what's really going on with Agatha?

[01:10:59] And she has to cover all that up so that she can bring them to their death.

[01:11:03] Yeah, maybe.

[01:11:04] You know, we've talked about it before that maybe she hasn't gone on the road before

[01:11:07] and has just been encouraging other witches in the past and taking their powers and taking them.

[01:11:11] I just wonder if that's Agatha's story that we might see at the end of the season.

[01:11:16] Because while we did see her in WandaVision, she was a fun presence and she was mischievous and mysterious.

[01:11:21] And she was there to take Wanda's powers.

[01:11:24] But that's kind of all we knew about her.

[01:11:26] And they've changed the little bit that we did know.

[01:11:28] The bit about killing her coven.

[01:11:29] They've kind of changed that and given a new perspective on that.

[01:11:32] That she isn't really in control of her powers as we've chatted about before.

[01:11:36] So I wonder if her son died because of something to do with her not being able to control her powers

[01:11:42] and she's made some kind of bargain with death to give her son back if she feeds it with death.

[01:11:47] Yeah, maybe.

[01:11:48] Maybe.

[01:11:49] Yeah.

[01:11:49] Especially the ones that avoided death like Lilia for hundreds of years.

[01:11:53] Yeah.

[01:11:53] You know?

[01:11:54] Great stuff.

[01:11:55] Yeah.

[01:11:55] Thanks, Paul.

[01:11:56] Absolutely.

[01:11:56] Thanks, Paul.

[01:11:57] Harvey Locus says,

[01:11:58] Joe Locke, who plays the teen, was right when he said in an interview episode seven is the best episode.

[01:12:03] What a great lead into our two-part finale next week.

[01:12:06] My favorite part?

[01:12:07] Teenager.

[01:12:08] Damn.

[01:12:08] She used his full name.

[01:12:10] Oh, and the end reminding us more of Evan Peter's Quicksilver.

[01:12:14] However, this will go down as one of the best episodes of TV ever.

[01:12:18] Oh, I like that, Harvey.

[01:12:19] So the idea of Lilia flipping the room around and all going in slow motion is quite similar to how Evan Peter's Quicksilver moved in the X-Men movies.

[01:12:27] Yeah, yeah.

[01:12:28] Did you hear the theory about why Ralph Boner came back, Evan Peter's character, and what's going to happen with him?

[01:12:33] That because he played Quicksilver, that maybe Billy's inside of his body.

[01:12:39] Oh, interesting.

[01:12:40] Yeah, that is a good theory.

[01:12:41] So Evan Peter's will suddenly be the speedster of this universe.

[01:12:45] Excellent.

[01:12:46] I like that idea a lot.

[01:12:47] I think it's a fun theory, but I don't think it's going to happen.

[01:12:50] No, I don't.

[01:12:50] But it would be a good.

[01:12:51] Evan Peter's is right up there in terms of projects he wants to work on.

[01:12:56] He has so many options.

[01:12:57] So I don't think he's going to come back and play a speedster.

[01:12:59] But I love the theory.

[01:13:00] I think it's a fun one.

[01:13:01] Yeah, definitely.

[01:13:02] Definitely.

[01:13:03] Thanks, Harvey.

[01:13:04] Also, Michael Carrier says,

[01:13:12] Hear, hear.

[01:13:20] Speaking of Mrs. Hart's death, Agatha dropped a line.

[01:13:23] I didn't think you had it in you.

[01:13:25] I assume she meant that to Billy when he had killed Mrs. Hart.

[01:13:30] Did I overthink this or will the line get paid off in the final two episodes?

[01:13:35] I'll be cruising back to the US from Spain for the next two weeks.

[01:13:39] So I'm going to have to wait until November the 7th for the finale.

[01:13:44] Oh, Michael.

[01:13:45] Yes.

[01:13:45] Oh, tantalizing waste whilst you travel back.

[01:13:49] I hope there's no internet access on the cruise.

[01:13:53] Because if there is, you may be spoiled by what happened in the last two episodes.

[01:13:56] Yeah, absolutely.

[01:13:58] But I'm completely with you here, both in terms of this being a great episode.

[01:14:04] And I know exactly what you mean.

[01:14:07] For me, I do sometimes think that Alice could have had a, it's not so much a better death, but a bigger episode.

[01:14:16] But I mean, I guess she's still got her trial ultimately.

[01:14:19] I think with Mrs. Hart, that's just a nice red herring.

[01:14:23] But I'm kind of, I do know what you mean about that.

[01:14:27] But I, you know, I'm guessing it's the power of Passio La Ponte, really.

[01:14:32] Yes, she's absolutely wonderful here.

[01:14:34] Really, really good.

[01:14:35] As for the line from Agatha, the one about, I didn't think you had it in you towards the teen.

[01:14:40] I think you're right.

[01:14:41] I think she directed at the teen, but I'm not sure if it's true that he killed Mrs. Hart.

[01:14:46] I thought Mrs. Hart died the way they said she died.

[01:14:50] Especially because Billy didn't know who he was back then, as we've learned in this episode.

[01:14:53] He didn't know he had the power.

[01:14:55] He was just going along actually being the normal teen.

[01:14:58] But I'm intrigued to find out.

[01:15:00] And, you know, dare I say it, all tarot cards are on the table.

[01:15:04] Almost.

[01:15:05] We will find it more in the last two episodes, I guess.

[01:15:08] Yeah, good stuff, Michael.

[01:15:09] And safe journey back to the US.

[01:15:13] Absolutely.

[01:15:14] Absolutely.

[01:15:14] Enjoy Halloween aboard the cruise ship.

[01:15:17] Should be fun.

[01:15:18] Heather Wallace says, oh, what a wonderful episode.

[01:15:21] I want to go back already and watch the entire series from the perspective of Lily as seemingly non sequiturs again, knowing where they are leading.

[01:15:28] Lily is joyful and loving acceptance of her death hit hard, but was so beautiful.

[01:15:32] This episode had such great visuals and narrative grace.

[01:15:36] Yeah, completely agree, Heather.

[01:15:40] Everyone seems to be really sort of vibing on this episode.

[01:15:46] Absolutely.

[01:15:47] And I think rightly so, to be honest.

[01:15:48] Yeah.

[01:15:49] We got a message in from Adrian Johnson who said, I wasn't going to comment until the end of the series, but simply, wow, what an amazing episode.

[01:15:57] Absolutely.

[01:15:57] Great stuff.

[01:15:58] Thanks, Heather.

[01:15:59] And thanks, Adrian.

[01:16:00] Absolutely.

[01:16:00] Finally, we have from Dr. Bob Phillips.

[01:16:02] He says, superb performances, visually stunning, perfect plotting, and just the right balance of humor against dread and commentary on inherent misogyny.

[01:16:14] Glinda, we forgive you for the slaughter of the seven orphaned children.

[01:16:20] Indeed, we do, Dr. Bob.

[01:16:23] I mean, they needed to be put out of their misery.

[01:16:28] I think the old grown-up adults.

[01:16:33] Yeah.

[01:16:33] Yeah.

[01:16:34] Their trauma had played on their minds for way too long.

[01:16:38] It genuinely took me a second to work that without Dr. Bob.

[01:16:41] It does happen sometimes.

[01:16:42] I'm not as fast as I used to be.

[01:16:44] So that's because Lilia was dressed as Glinda and the seven slaughtered off orphans are the Salem seven.

[01:16:50] Yeah, absolutely.

[01:16:51] Very good.

[01:16:51] I like it.

[01:16:52] I like it.

[01:16:52] I have to explain that out loud to myself, John, so it stays in my head.

[01:16:56] Good old Glinda.

[01:16:58] Love it.

[01:16:59] Thank you so much to everybody for your feedback.

[01:17:01] If you want to keep sending us feedback, you can email us to feedback at tvpodcastindustries.com.

[01:17:05] We do, as I said, just have two more episodes of Agatha all along left to go next week.

[01:17:09] So get your thoughts in to us for any of the episodes so far, and we'll chat about them on the podcast.

[01:17:14] Yes.

[01:17:15] And, of course, fellow defenders, if you enjoy the podcast, you can support us over at patreon.com or buymeacoffee.com and just search TV Podcast Industries.

[01:17:26] And, of course, you can support us by subscribing to the podcast and sharing it with loved witches, wizards, elves, orcs, and you name it.

[01:17:36] Because, of course, sharing the podcast is sharing the love.

[01:17:41] Did you get that line from our Rings of Power podcast?

[01:17:43] I think I may have done.

[01:17:44] I think you might have.

[01:17:44] I might have just left it in the document.

[01:17:45] Sorry about that.

[01:17:46] It's merged.

[01:17:48] But, yes, we will be back next week with the final two episodes of Agatha all along.

[01:17:54] Agatha all along episodes eight and nine, which air on the 30th of October.

[01:18:02] I say that, but it's the 31st of October for us on Halloween when we wake up in the morning.

[01:18:07] That'll be the first thing we'll be doing is watching that.

[01:18:10] I'm not ready, John.

[01:18:11] Boo.

[01:18:12] I am.

[01:18:13] Thanks so much for joining us.

[01:18:14] See you later, witches.

[01:18:15] Yes.

[01:18:15] Thank you so much, fellow defenders, for joining us until the witching hour next week.

[01:18:22] Keep watching.

[01:18:23] Keep listening.

[01:18:23] And, of course, keep defending.

[01:18:26] Bye.

[01:18:26] Bye.