Shogun Chapter 8 Podcast

[00:00:00] This is the Shogun Podcast on TV Podcast Industries and we're talking about Shogun Chapter 8, The Abyss of Life.

[00:00:08] I must say I am impressed. You have made your own way out here.

[00:00:14] Thank you Father. Ah, Go yo I wa, asinisite kudasare.

[00:00:19] Except I seem to have found Catholics in every corner of this country. Like the Kakaruch.

[00:00:25] It was not you I came to Edo for. I have urgent business with Toranagasama.

[00:00:31] Strange that you are living out here. Typically, a hatamoto is given residence within the confines of his Lord's castle.

[00:00:39] What are your plans? Now he has cut you loose.

[00:00:45] Well to start I will reunite with my crew. Get back aboard my vessel.

[00:00:51] Then pay a visit to that black ship I have heard so much about.

[00:00:54] What are you talking about?

[00:00:56] Welcome back fellow warriors to the Shogun Podcast on TV Podcast Industries.

[00:01:22] We are discussing all things around Shogun Chapter 8, The Abyss of Life.

[00:01:28] I am one of your hosts John. I'm your other host Derek. Welcome back.

[00:01:32] Yes. What a title. Love it. The Abyss of Life.

[00:01:36] Yeah absolutely. I think when this whole thing starts to kind of see how much toll the death of Nagakado has taken on everybody really.

[00:01:46] It starts so yeah it gets worse from there really for the episode, doesn't it?

[00:01:52] Yeah absolutely. This to me was just an amazing, amazing episode. Absolutely loved it.

[00:02:02] Shocking, sort of manipulating. It's just really really good.

[00:02:08] So nice, weirdly a great little bit of humour at least for me.

[00:02:14] About one point to do with the courtesans and the church.

[00:02:20] Of course yes it's a great one. Really good but I think before we get into our spoiler filled discussion around Chapter 8 of Shogun.

[00:02:30] First a quick reminder to join us over at TVPodcastIndustries.com where you can subscribe to any good or evil podcast catcher of your choice.

[00:02:41] You can send in your thoughts, theories, observations, comments about all things Shogun-y to feedback at TVPodcastIndustries.com

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[00:03:00] where you can leave your thoughts, theories and comments on our spoiler filled posts.

[00:03:06] Absolutely if you haven't read the book I want to know did you expect all the twists and turns that are happening through our show in the season

[00:03:13] because I certainly didn't there's lots of things that are happening that I'm going I would never have written that never ever thought this is the way it's going to go so

[00:03:18] I'm excited to hear your thoughts about that. It'd be great to hear them before the end of the season.

[00:03:23] Only two more episodes to go after this one so how is it going to work out?

[00:03:27] Well absolutely it seems as though things are probably falling into place for Toranago but at great cost obviously.

[00:03:37] Absolutely.

[00:03:39] But up first fellow warriors we just want to give a quick call out for a review from James Jassy over on Apple Podcasts.

[00:03:48] A favourite Shogun podcast. James Jassy says I've listened to almost all the Shogun podcasts and this one is my favourite along with the official podcast from the show.

[00:03:58] The summary and analysis is concise and insightful. The hosts are smart, articulate and have a pleasant manner keep up the good work.

[00:04:07] Excellent thank you so much James Jassy for that review. Love getting in the reviews it does help for people to find us

[00:04:16] and also to spread the word of the podcast because as we always say sharing the podcast is of course sharing the love.

[00:04:25] Yes it is absolutely thanks so much James it's really good to send you your thoughts on the podcast and as John says great to leave a review for us over there.

[00:04:33] If anybody else wants to leave a review please do so you can find the Shogun on TV Podcast Industries podcast on any of your favourite feeds or leave a review of course on the TV Podcast Industries main feed where we're also covering Invincible and Star Wars the Bad Bad.

[00:04:46] The show is about to be a big batch weekly at the moment just finished Invincible this week but still got a bit more to go of Star Wars the Bad Bad and of course Shogun a couple more weeks to go of that as well.

[00:04:55] Love to have you join us over there as well. Yes absolutely but with that Derek please tell us who gave us what when, where, how and why.

[00:05:05] Well the show of course is based on James LaValle's 1975 novel of the same name Shogun.

[00:05:11] The head writers of the show are Rachel Kondo and Justin Marks this episode was written by Shannon Goss who also wrote Episode 3 and this episode was directed by Emmanuel Ocel Cofor

[00:05:21] who also directed an episode of Mike Flanagan's Midnight Club and will direct an episode of the fifth and final season of Star Trek Discovery which comes out which came out last week the first couple of weeks came out last week so that's kind of cool having.

[00:05:32] Yeah good stuff. Having Shogun on one channel and having Star Trek Discovery something completely far distant in the future on another channel, cool is that.

[00:05:41] Yeah and having Mike Flanagan's Midnight Club, homage to the Breakfast Club. Kind of. Kind of yes.

[00:05:48] Yeah I absolutely love the Midnight Club which was great but I also like most of Mike Flanagan's stuff.

[00:05:54] Yeah pretty much everything is the only show that was intended to have two seasons and of course as these things happen when you intend to have two seasons or something they don't confirm a first second season so.

[00:06:04] Exactly. But it was very good though. So those are the writers and director John do you want to tell us what they gave us with your synopsis for this episode of Shogun Chapter 8 The Abyss of Life.

[00:06:15] Sure.

[00:06:17] Torrenaga's defeated clan moves to Edo to mourn the death of his son for the traditional 49 days as Torrenaga and his trusted generals await their fate.

[00:06:27] John Blackthorn must decide who he fights for, the Lord who has turned his back on him or the ambition that brought him to Japan in the first place.

[00:06:37] Very good very good. And does he make his decision at the end or has he also been manipulated by Lord Torrenaga?

[00:06:43] I think everyone has been manipulated by Lord Torrenaga by the looks of it.

[00:06:49] Potentially potentially or maybe I just mis-framed that question maybe Lord Torrenaga is just someone that really knows people and what way they are going to act when put into a serious circumstance or situation.

[00:07:00] Well that's it I think it's a bit column A, bit column B because yeah he gets Mariko to go and travel with John Blackthorn to Osaka and of course with the Abishige as well.

[00:07:11] But I think it is column A, column B he absolutely has strategy and tactics but he is also a huge opportunist and uses events to his advantage but knows the long game and the past and the connection.

[00:07:31] So just a good all-rounder I think you would say.

[00:07:35] Yeah definitely.

[00:07:36] But let us get into our top Bushido's for this episode Bushido number one 49 days of morning in Edo.

[00:07:48] Yeah this is the aftermath of course of the death of Nagakalo, the son of Torrenaga as they bring his body to their hometown of Edo and I think I kind of missed it when I was watching the episode the first time but it's his half-brothers army that I'm going to be talking about.

[00:08:06] They are waiting on the borders of Edo for Torrenaga and his own army, his own people to mourn the loss of his son.

[00:08:14] So they stop at the borders this is what Mariko explains to John Blackthorn just before they cross into the city and everybody's dealing with the morning in a different way.

[00:08:23] Torrenaga we hear him coughing and spluttering as he's coming into Edo and then he disappears from sight.

[00:08:30] We see some very different reactions from some of his vassals, some of them even though they're in mourning for Torrenaga's son are wearing their armor as a form of protest for the fact that Torrenaga is now going to give himself up to...

[00:08:44] Yeah and surrender to Shido.

[00:08:47] They do not like that decision.

[00:08:50] Exactly.

[00:08:51] But we also see that whilst Torrenaga has gone back to Edo to mourn he doesn't make his own son's cremation but seemingly because of the onset of this cough that he has picked up from the ride.

[00:09:05] But I think what frames this really nicely is the brief return to Osaka where we hear that the word of Torrenaga's surrender has reached Ishido and Lady Achiiba

[00:09:18] because in a sense Ishido is kind of smirking happy.

[00:09:25] It's almost like okay there's the fate to complete that says it's going to be that bloodless.

[00:09:30] He's celebrating his victory there.

[00:09:32] Yeah whereas Lady Achiiba is like until you know his face is pressed to the floor in sort of supplication to myself in surrender I don't trust it.

[00:09:43] Yes and I think that is ultimately the set up for really how this progresses through this episode with that final moment as well which will get to its own Bushido point.

[00:09:57] Yeah.

[00:09:59] It's just a really, really good set up for this morning because in effect here there's extra time afforded to Torrenaga with this traditional 49 days of mourning which has to be respected.

[00:10:14] Yeah.

[00:10:16] It allows him to get back to his seat and base of power in Edo.

[00:10:20] In a sense maybe you would think it's so they can do off you know regroup all this forces and then all out kind of frontal assault or some description.

[00:10:31] So it's really interesting how this goes but ultimately that this is all about the death of Nagakada as well you know with the cremation and the different mourning that's happening.

[00:10:46] Exactly, exactly and it's interesting that you mention respect and you mentioned the idea that he could be gathering his forces here because while Torrenaga isn't really seen very much at the beginning of this episode we see a lot of his other vassals

[00:11:01] and I think there's a really, really interesting scene as all the vassals are sitting around.

[00:11:07] It's almost like a wake that they're having before for Nagakado and interestingly everybody is criticizing Nagakado even Hiromatsu who's the closest to a member of family that Torrenaga has had and even he is saying he's a silly boy.

[00:11:24] He died exactly as he lived going into situations way too fast and it's only Oney who's a more recent friend of him who stands up and says he would love to have seen us here celebrating him.

[00:11:37] He would love to have seen us here drinking to his memory and saying you know while he may have been rationed as actions at least he stood up for something that he believes in and while it may have ended badly at least he stood up for our country stood up for Japan.

[00:11:52] So this is kind of so in the sea the rest of the vassals all take that on board as a lot of things that only says they do take on board.

[00:12:01] Well he speaks a lot of sense.

[00:12:02] Yeah.

[00:12:03] I love this wake.

[00:12:06] I mean I do think that they were the honoring Nagakada in their own way.

[00:12:10] Yeah.

[00:12:11] Just Torrenaga was absent from that as well.

[00:12:14] They talk about him being brave and that you know his stories he loved listening to stories and his stories that would just continue and continue and continue.

[00:12:26] And as you say it is Hiramatsu who says but he was reckless in what he did and now we find ourselves in this predicament.

[00:12:32] That's the thing I really like Oni here and standing up essentially for his friend.

[00:12:39] Yeah.

[00:12:40] You know his kind of ally in a sense you could almost see that if Nagakada had survived all this had inherited Torrenaga's fiefdom and so on.

[00:12:52] Then similarly it would be the partnership between them those two like with Torrenaga and Yabashige in that sense you know.

[00:13:01] I know what you mean but actually I think it would be even closer and even closer relationship.

[00:13:05] It might be closer to the way Torrenaga and Hiramatsu work together.

[00:13:09] Yeah.

[00:13:10] They've been working together for decades.

[00:13:12] Yeah absolutely you know and like he says as you say it gets all the you know of Torrenaga's generals as well as Hiramatsu and Bontaro.

[00:13:23] So their ears prick up and you know he said he's not here.

[00:13:27] You know it's sad that his friend is dead.

[00:13:30] He would have as you say he would have loved us sharing these stories about him but he's not here because of his Lord surrendering.

[00:13:38] Yes.

[00:13:39] And so it's immediately the onus is back on Torrenaga there and you see the look as you say in the eyes and it is kind of taken on board here.

[00:13:48] So it's really really interesting.

[00:13:50] Absolutely.

[00:13:51] You know.

[00:13:52] And also as they travel to the cremation of Narukado there's the conversation between Hiramatsu and Yabashige who's kind of going we should get our forces together.

[00:14:03] We should bring the cannons and guns together and go and have our assault on Osaka have that crimson sky that we talked about.

[00:14:12] And I kind of like the twist in that here where a matter Hiramatsu goes actually one of the conditions of our surrender is that you do bring the guns and cannons back to Osaka as a gift to our new Lord upon our surrender.

[00:14:25] So.

[00:14:26] And he is also a condition of the surrender.

[00:14:30] And Ashido knows that he effectively you know in a sense can't be trusted here and all possibly is still on the cusp of being turned.

[00:14:40] And because we certainly later on we see him with John Blackthorn sort of debasing about what it is and he might do or what he might do with the time that he's got in Osaka away from the eyes of Torrenaga.

[00:14:58] You know the many eyes of Torrenaga.

[00:15:00] So yeah, no I like that as well.

[00:15:03] It's also the fact that in this moment of mourning you know in these discussions that they have with their Lord who's still coughing looks much weaker.

[00:15:18] And you see Hiramatsu you have Miriko and you have Father Martin the Jesuit priest.

[00:15:28] And you know he's trying to get a sense of what the talk is in Osaka.

[00:15:35] Again there's this end game here Torrenaga blatantly saying to Father Martin no you go back from here and you say exactly bit by bit what you have seen here.

[00:15:47] And you know and then you get your church in Edo.

[00:15:51] You know I will give you that land as the reward for doing that.

[00:15:56] If you do this one thing I should say for me because again I just feel Torrenaga the opportunistic bit is he understands and learns that Father Martin is here on his own volition not being sent by the head of the church in Japan.

[00:16:13] So you know he can see that agency there and wants to exploit it.

[00:16:19] I love that and of course coming out of that Hiramatsu is like we are fighting.

[00:16:24] You know there is a plan here.

[00:16:26] He almost reinvigorates the generals again and Romi and Yabashige as that this is part of a plan we are going to fight.

[00:16:35] Exactly because he's basically thinking there's no way that Torrenaga will be showing off his weakness to Osaka.

[00:16:41] There must be a plan here.

[00:16:43] Show them that you're weak and then show them real strength kind of thing.

[00:16:46] There is a great moment in the conversation with Father Martin who generally speaks in Japanese to Torrenaga has been allowed to in the past, has worked with Mariko of course and has translated John Blackthorn in the past.

[00:16:58] Here he's told because the church is not an ally to Torrenaga.

[00:17:03] He's not even allowed to use their Japanese language anymore.

[00:17:06] He must speak in English and allow Mariko to translate so that his words aren't hidden at all.

[00:17:12] I thought that was really a really good line being drawn in the sand between the church and Torrenaga's version of Japan.

[00:17:21] Well and it's interesting that you know with that discussion with Hiramatsu and Mariko is you know there's the discussion is around whether they can actually strangle a Shibos.

[00:17:35] Shibos ambition.

[00:17:37] Whether there is a way in you know a gap in Lady Achibe's defenses and that they can align with her in order to stifle and strangle Achibe's ambition and power effectively.

[00:17:56] So I kind of like that and ultimately it's kind of assumed that there is no way in here.

[00:18:02] Yeah Mariko goes to meet with Lady Rin who's just given birth to Torrenaga's granddaughter and Lady Rin is the sister of Ishida.

[00:18:11] And Mariko is going to ask her you know what's your sister feeling at the moment is you know what's the communication method that you're using.

[00:18:18] And it's like well she's sent over her congratulations but that's kind of it there's no more there you know what she's like.

[00:18:25] So no way in there through the sister effectively.

[00:18:28] So they've kind of exhausted all options that they've said Mariko had a relationship with her when they were younger but didn't doesn't know her very well.

[00:18:35] Lady Rin her sister does still know her of course but there's no influence that Lady Rin would have on on Ishida so that's that's shut down.

[00:18:44] That's kind of option that they may have is shut down there.

[00:18:47] And the one other thing that you mentioned there Father Martin is told that he's allowed to build his church in Edo on behalf of the Jesuit order.

[00:18:55] And then we have the other reward Lady Rin is going to get her tea house district also in Edo.

[00:19:03] Next to the church's plot of course I must say I just love that little sort of disruptive sense of humour there in sort of 16th century Japan and so I really like that.

[00:19:16] You see kind of Father Martin sort of going you know or to sound like a cross the way yeah.

[00:19:24] I think the other thing about that is having Lady Jin and Kiku surveying their plot in Edo as sort of realising sort of imagining their dream of this quarter of Edo that's dedicated to the quarters and again it's

[00:19:42] Lady Rin and Kiku having that conversation about his loyalty and you know and her loyalty to Jin and he's reflecting that and mirroring it with his loyalty to I think to his uncle actually or it might be Lord Taranaga

[00:20:01] And then in effect he's saying to Kiku is there a moment when loyalty becomes a disservice or a harm you know he sees his favourite quarter sounds loyalty to Lady Jin and he's going

[00:20:14] when you brought this about because of your talent and you know do you see that there is a moment where that loyalty is a disservice or a harm.

[00:20:24] Effectively to yourself and she's like no yeah and he's asking that in relation I think it's about Taranaga but I have in my notes that it's doubts about his uncle so I can't quite remember but it could be both it could be either of this because

[00:20:43] we've had that moment where John Blackthorn has been sort of making propositions to his uncle Yabashige anyway.

[00:20:54] That's true yeah I did take it as a reflection of his thoughts about Taranaga again he's just lost his friend who stood up for something he believed in as he said so I take it that he's kind of going well everybody's blindly following Taranaga's lead here

[00:21:11] and he sees Kiku following Jin's lead here and just being still a courtesan in her court even though she may get her own tea house in the district because of her talents it still will all be owned by Lady Jin so I think he's kind of going hang on a second

[00:21:27] why you're still loyal to her the way I'm loyal to Taranaga is there a point here where I should cut my ties and cut my loyalty because I think that's a lot of this episode is about that loyalty to Taranaga.

[00:21:36] I think it equally works for both given the conversation beforehand so yeah but it's I must say he is my favorite kind of smaller part character because I just find the scenes that Ami has are just at real points of influence

[00:21:58] yes so it feels like even though yes he's not a general he's just a nephew to his uncle he's the head of a small wet fishing village you know he's actually become quite influential and part of that was through sort of his conversations

[00:22:19] and manipulation of Taranaga's son yeah but you know it's quite an interesting character

[00:22:28] absolutely but I think it's time to move on to our Bushido point number two yes crew reunited the smelly sailors absolutely absolutely it's hard to remember exactly what John's motivation has been throughout the show

[00:22:48] John Blackthorn's motivation has been throughout the show and he arrived at the beginning of the season on Japan with a mission and he was to go in find the trade routes take out possibly take out the Portuguese

[00:23:03] and begin new trades routes for the Dutch and potentially for the English he had his mission getting into Japan he lost his crew he lost his his ship at the beginning of the season and his motivation for the whole season here was to get back to his crew

[00:23:17] potentially get a ship back and then maybe carry out the rest of his mission or maybe just sail back to England and so those were the options that we had there

[00:23:26] so finally he is told when he gets to Edo his crew have actually been taken here this is where his crew have been resting their heads for the last while

[00:23:35] Taranaga never said that to him Taranaga never gave them the information that his crew had been taken to a safe place in Edo yeah so I thought that was kind of interesting firstly because he's just told it as he crosses the border into the city

[00:23:48] he's told his crew are his crew are there for him and he's also released from a service yeah he is no longer in service to Taranaga no longer has to do anything for him

[00:23:57] he's a free agent completely free agent and he's given the journals that could have proved him a criminal and could have led to his death they've been handed back to him by Mariko

[00:24:06] so he starts to set up his own household in Edo he still has his household which is also mentioned that his household is still being run back in the fishing village of Azuro so whenever he does return there if he does

[00:24:19] those lands title and monies are all still available to him Fuji's taken care of all of that for him

[00:24:27] but there is a moment when he bumps into Father Martin I just think it's a good setup point for what happens later when he meets up with his crew because not only is John speaking really good Japanese to some of the people in Edo

[00:24:43] when he bumps into Father Martin he's wearing the full outfit of a Japanese person rather than any Western clothes at all so

[00:24:51] Martin comments on this to him kind of going to wear those things when you go meet your crew because they're gonna think you've changed and you've been manipulated by the Japanese

[00:24:59] he also tries to correct John's Japanese as well John's looking for charcoal which burns brighter and will make his new home much better and Father Martin thinks he's just looking for more wood so I like that because it's a real challenge to John

[00:25:17] hang on a second the last time I saw you on your knees in front of Taranaga here you are with a title like Kata Motto coming into the city wearing Japanese clothes speaking Japanese

[00:25:27] smelling fresh

[00:25:28] smelling fresh exactly so it's a good setup John wants nothing to do with Father Martin Father Martin is like the exact personification of what he hates most which is the church and their hold they have on Japan at the moment and that's developed over time

[00:25:43] so I thought that was really interesting to have the conversation between the two of them

[00:25:47] yeah no absolutely I think I think it's really good because I like how it gets John Blackthorn to almost question how he's going to reconnect with his crew and I mean ultimately you know he doesn't get that warm reception

[00:26:03] because he is there with his Japanese clothes on and John Blackthorn is actually a bit repulsed by the smell and the stench of the one of the Dutch crewman and probably as much from alcohol as well as everything else but you know the

[00:26:22] really important to point out that just so everybody remembers right back at the start of the season he was asked to bathe and he said no

[00:26:30] do you want me to die from catching diseases from bathing too often was his idea in his head

[00:26:35] yeah exactly

[00:26:36] and here he is walking into an area that has alcohol has his former crewmates that he would have known so well and he's holding his nose at the disgusting smells that he's smelling

[00:26:46] but it comes back to that whole thing where you know they had given up John Blackthorn for dead and so you know they question what his purpose was

[00:26:58] what the purpose of this voyage was you know really you know that they could have turned around before the Magellan straights did they have to go past the you know what was this because like you say he hasn't

[00:27:12] you know a number of different roles here yes he was the pilot of the ship yes it was about Dutch trade routes but it was also about

[00:27:22] breaking the monopoly of the Spanish and Portuguese trade because at the time you had the Dutch fighting the Spanish as well to be free of Spanish rule

[00:27:34] and with England being an ally so it was about a bigger geopolitical sphere as well so you know again they're his journals so you don't you know this that's suspicion from the Dutch crew about well you know and now you're here

[00:27:57] dressed in refined Japanese garment so you haven't just been left to rot or to do your own thing even though he is also being prevented from leaving like they are and it's that he has

[00:28:12] at least been given a title salary effectively and lands in the house so they haven't so then it's that suspicion just immediately falls on him from this crew member yeah and in a fight.

[00:28:33] It does and the other thing they're also he's also he questions is the ambition of John Blackthorne it's not only that they could have turned around at some point and it wouldn't have been too bad a thing when they arrived on shore at least they got home safe and alive

[00:28:46] they're also questioning whether John Blackthorne did this just to be the first Englishman to cross the Magellan straight that ambition that's within John that he wants to be the brave adventurer traveling the world setting records

[00:28:58] which is part of the reason why the crewman's looking at him going you know is that we've done here you know that ambition that you had to be the first to cross the Magellan straight is that the reason why you an Englishman are standing in front of me having learned Japanese wearing Japanese clothes having all your titles and finery

[00:29:12] have you just gone the ambitious route to make those connections and sort yourself out basically and not the rest of us which is interesting as well.

[00:29:21] Yeah so it's kind of less friends reunited and more friends who fight it.

[00:29:27] Yeah so that's the end I guess of the of the crew and John Blackthorne because it doesn't look like he's going to be going back to them anytime soon and it doesn't look like they're going to be very interested in dealing with him he tries to say to them that he could have a full crew that he's worked with in Japan bring them along put them on their ship when they get that back and then they can make for the make for the horizon but that doesn't seem what the.

[00:29:51] What these guys want or this guy wants the right.

[00:29:54] Yeah exactly yeah but let us get on to Bushido number three Bontaro doesn't spill the tea but Mariko does I'm sorry John that's my fault I know it is I couldn't think of anything better it's a great scene obviously.

[00:30:09] It is a great scene and really in a way we've talked quite a bit about the relationship between Bontaro and Mariko.

[00:30:19] We'll mention it again in our feedback because we've been continually getting feedback in since one of our pieces of feedback mentioned Justin marks the show winner saying that Bontaro is truly in love with Mariko and we were all as viewers watching the show going.

[00:30:32] But he's never shown that he's in love with her he seems to despise her he seems to hate her he seems to want to keep her keep her alive when she wants to die that kind of thing and I think this might be the scene that Justin marks is talking about.

[00:30:44] Yeah I think it is revealed here that Bontaro in his mind feels like he does love Mariko.

[00:30:50] He has feelings for her I mean I think just the whole act of the tea ceremony being sort of so born out of.

[00:31:03] A respect and a care and attention I mean in some ways it almost shows a bit of that he has to show it through the tea ceremony rather than through his direct emotions and affections to her.

[00:31:19] But Mariko ultimately does accept this and you know and it feels like.

[00:31:25] Bontaro is a really difficult character in terms of this relationship with Mariko because you know it's kind of coming from a place of misogyny which was I guess commonplace in those days of man being better than women.

[00:31:44] That's how I see it might just be a pure Western.

[00:31:48] I think you also then even Torin Aga who understands the qualities that women can have it's for his purpose you know or he still pulls the card of it's more he pulls the card of I am your Lord rather than I am a man but you know it's like.

[00:32:13] It is a it's still a patriarchal society.

[00:32:17] Oh 100% I'm sure I'm sure it is but Bontaro in himself just taken on his own.

[00:32:23] It has not shown any love Mariko throughout the season that we've seen on screen here he's using a ceremonial moment to show her that he loves her.

[00:32:34] And he's telling her I'm trying to bring us back to those young days where we were once together at the beginning of a relationship where we were in love.

[00:32:43] Mariko says I don't remember those days and when you hear it the first time the way that she poses it to him the way she says it to him it sounds like I just don't have a memory of that she is saying to him there were no days like that that I loved you.

[00:32:55] There may have been days that you love me back then but there were no days that I loved you and I wonder if it's partly that's what happened we didn't see their early days.

[00:33:03] We only saw that moment when he saw her and then she was proposed to marriage and we knew that she wasn't happy with with the arranged marriage that was that was going on between the two families effectively with her at the centre of it.

[00:33:16] But it seems like maybe Bontaro was in love with her until she continually asked to end her life and then he realised that she has no love for him and now thinks by doing this before they die because he believes now Toranaga is going to lose here and they are all going to die.

[00:33:33] He does this reconciliation between the two of them then both of them can die honourably as what he says as a protest against Toranaga they both die together and they can send a message to everybody else that they don't believe in Toranaga.

[00:33:51] And I think that adds to how vitriolic the response from America is and it's like a dagger straight into his heart as she says to him you still don't understand the reason why I wanted to die was to get away from you if I have to die with you I'd rather live a thousand more years like that is brutal.

[00:34:11] It is really brutal.

[00:34:12] Come from a person he's effectively declaring his love again exactly this this one me by really difficult character with Bontaro because in that moment you're really conflicted because you're going wow that is hot and that is the biggest burn I mean that's like proposing and.

[00:34:31] And you know being basically told no it's even more than that because I can't engage and we can throw him back in your face or into the sea so you can't retrieve and get the money back everything around it is so poetic and even the tea ceremony in its own way it's so intimate.

[00:34:48] And kind way of doing it but it is divorced from physical intimacy and in a sense emotional intimacy almost like it's done with the you know the three level half or the eight fold fence yeah it's almost that way of having to express it.

[00:35:07] It is actually interesting you say that because he does say to her at the end of this of the ceremony she compliments him on his style of doing the ceremony as well as he did and he says to her only for you as in I'm only doing it this.

[00:35:22] Because I love you and I do feel that moment is where she breaks open her eight fold fence as we talked about back in that episode when she explains her most hidden deep thoughts the ones that could get you killed if you share them with anybody.

[00:35:36] She shares them straight to Bontaro's face and tells him I don't love you I'd rather live forever than die with you absolutely and and that not back and in a sense you kind of on the one hand you're going.

[00:35:48] You know totally justified from Mariko say this and absolutely you know you're offering me death now you let alone the reasons for it and but equally you kind of go.

[00:36:03] Oh wow that and I guess ultimately by the end of the episode given what happens as well you go a bunch of how a bad return to Edo.

[00:36:12] Yes he did absolutely but I did think it was absolutely wonderful scene it's just it's superb it's the quiet power of Mariko after the quiet ceremony ceremony of the of the tea.

[00:36:25] I think that's it's the observation of the tea ceremony it's that observation of how they react to one another it reminded me of you know the veneered cups with and gin with Mariko with Fuji and the moment of Kiku John Blacks again it's just wonderfully observed really really.

[00:36:55] Pitch perfect in how it's done and as I say I mean it's actually.

[00:37:01] Pure poetry just the writing is so lovely yeah I think there's no other word I can say about I mean even in even in the harshness just the way you know it's return to Bontaro.

[00:37:14] There's a great sort of sense to it of just power and Mariko spit in the tea yes.

[00:37:23] Exactly effectively the same thing so yeah really really good scene I think for these two and it just adds to this really unfortunate relationship in a sense.

[00:37:36] Yeah yeah absolutely and but should we get on to Bushido number four because things only get worse for all poor Bontaro and I mean I have say despite everything I'm kind of like going.

[00:37:50] Yeah that's that's that's not a great few days in in Edo as we have probably one of the more shocking parts of the series let alone this episode.

[00:38:05] With Hiromatsu's sacrifice.

[00:38:09] This is just incredible as a scene as it's all staged as you see you know what looks like a sickly Toranaga getting together all of his vassals.

[00:38:20] Getting really aggressively angry about the fact that some of the he's heard that some of them wore their armor at the sun's funeral in protest and saying they are still.

[00:38:30] Dedicated to him and he has made the decision here they must follow what he tells them to do they must surrender.

[00:38:37] You know going against what Hiromatsu had said earlier on Hiromatsu thinking that and that he was actually just setting up for a battle and here he has them all lining up he's got a.

[00:38:48] Document written up for them all to sign agreeing that they will stay in line with Toranaga they will surrender all of them and you see as it goes down the line you see the faces of some of the vassals kind of going but is this still part of the plan is this you know is there gonna be a big twist here themselves and as a viewer.

[00:39:07] Absolutely you're watching it going where's the twist here Toranaga is getting so aggressively forceful with these guys and you see the first two guys sign us and then.

[00:39:17] They start to step back away from it they start to say they won't sign it well that's a challenge by and by his generals who have effectively say.

[00:39:26] We are here to advise you not to just blindly follow orders you know this is in a sense his own.

[00:39:34] Council of regents really within the clan you know his view is that this goes beyond his clan and that the preservation of their clan this is about the preservation of Japan exactly a more sort of.

[00:39:53] Holistic sort of national view of the best thing for Japan not his clan and I think you know it's it comes across as a surprise to Hiromatsu as well and so Hiromatsu's challenge ultimately is.

[00:40:11] The dead end the cul-de-sac challenge here of challenging the ultimate clan power here of Toranaga which is you know if you don't change your mind.

[00:40:26] I will commit sepica you know and this is then that this kind of standoff between these two.

[00:40:33] And you know his his trusted friend his influential advisor his partner in crime in a lot of cases you know with Hiromatsu and and.

[00:40:45] Well I suppose last week seeing the flashback to the two of them side by side when Toranaga was only what 13 wasn't it on his first battle and it was Hiromatsu that was standing by his side back then from his first battle to his last year.

[00:40:58] And Hiromatsu what seems like totally unbelieving that his lord would would stop here would would give up and would surrender and it's just.

[00:41:10] It's so stressful and get so emotional when the two of them are.

[00:41:14] Are battling back and forth between each other and it's Toranaga saying to him well then I guess we can't see any future time for sepica right.

[00:41:21] And you know I guess we can't see an impasse here now you must kill yourself because that's what he said you do and it's you can you can almost feel Hiromatsu.

[00:41:31] Pushing back against him but then sticking by his guns taking his sword making Bontaro be his second cutting himself open and Bontaro taking his head.

[00:41:41] And the head rolling across the floor to the feet of Toranaga in front of the rest of his generals the rest of the vessel it's.

[00:41:47] Well that's it as you say it's just really tense and it's hugely charged hugely emotional it's even just you know the the responses of like army.

[00:41:59] And you have a sugar in the in Lord Toranaga's palace you know it's them that they're kind of like is this for real is this really happening.

[00:42:10] I love the fact that Hiromatsu says you know then this is farewell and and I mean with Bontaro as I say you know what a few days for Bontaro because he's asked to be the second to actually decapitate his father.

[00:42:26] But also he wants to follow his father into death and he is father refuses him to quote so he knows how it feels to be denied which feels like.

[00:42:39] It's telling him well this is what you've been doing to Mariko for all these years and and this is the point where you kind of go is this just the ultimate sacrifice and I believe it is I believe that this.

[00:42:54] Is part of.

[00:42:57] Taranaga's plan because he says that you must not give up on your Lord I Toranaga you are to trust in him and.

[00:43:08] Oh and also because you see the effect of what's happened on Taranaga with Mariko where again she's slaying on the poetry on the high queue from yes.

[00:43:20] Yeah but you know he talks about his friend and his good friend so it feels like this is.

[00:43:30] And some ways part of the plan I might be totally wrong but it just feels like that I don't think you're wrong and I think that's why it's such a shocking revelation when we have to run like a talking to Mariko because.

[00:43:41] Not only is he talking about his friend he's saying that he or a matzo played his part yeah it's it's as if well it's it seems to me anyway Taranaga saying this was the plan we came up with it was either everybody dies.

[00:43:55] Or we convince everybody that I'm going to surrender and in order to do that I had to sacrifice her a matzo and he was willing to make that.

[00:44:05] I'm at my weakest because you see that it's he's lost his son he's effectively just lost his right hand advisor and.

[00:44:16] You have him coughing spluttering looking a lot frailer over the course of this you have his conversation with father Martin say you know tell them exactly what you saw here and.

[00:44:29] And it's interesting because when Taranaga goes to his son's ashes and you know he goes thank you my son you earned me some extra time I will not waste it for you and here a matzo I will not waste this yeah.

[00:44:47] And that's really it's a plan born out on the hoof of the opportunity that his son even though he thought he might do that he didn't necessarily know he would die yeah but.

[00:45:03] He games everything.

[00:45:06] And is opportunistic yeah and.

[00:45:10] Has a following that is absolutely loyal to the cause in what here I'm at you and it's just kind of like that's also not just the shock of here I'm at you but it's just that scope of scenario gaming that Taranaga is doing.

[00:45:29] Absolutely.

[00:45:31] You know which is just like.

[00:45:34] Kind of so fantastic yeah it's unbelievable yeah massively shocking massively shocking and but these scenes all end as we say when we get the reveal that this was the plan.

[00:45:47] Mariko and says to her now it's time are you ready to play your part he'd set her up and established this with Mariko that the reason she was almost hiding in plain sight in the total plan as marriage Ontario was because her father had left something for her to do.

[00:46:03] A legacy for her to complete for their family when it comes to that point she will be brought in which is what Taranaga is doing here he's telling her you need to go to a second and this is your play.

[00:46:16] So that will be interesting to see what happens there and we also get when we kind of mentioned it earlier on a little bit but we also get that John has aligned himself to the Abashige Abashige now accepted John coming on board because he does think Taranaga is gone a bit crazy so he has to get himself out of there get himself to a sack.

[00:46:32] John is now being brought on board to.

[00:46:35] But I like how he discusses that with Mariko in that he kind of says have the Abashige and the engine have they aligned yet and they're like golf course short wings you know could only see so far in front of them and have only.

[00:46:55] The notion of flying short distances not the long game and and you know and then chucks her into going to a soccer as part of a plan of what he believes she can do for him in a soccer and can execute it but also.

[00:47:15] It's disruptive for John Blackthorn the fact that she is there and you see it on their faces when she comes aboard the ship taking them to a soccer.

[00:47:26] Lace at night you know unexpectedly and you can sense the disruption that she's just introduced on board that ship not only with John Blackthorn but with the Abashige.

[00:47:38] Yes absolutely although there is an interesting thing that I noticed watching this episode through a couple of times I'd mentioned before the John is starting to learn Japanese is quite good it's not not grace but it's quite good.

[00:47:51] But it is quite interesting this that I wonder whether John has just been learning phrases that he needs in certain situations to make it seem like he's getting on better in Japan than he is you know he easily is able to go up to.

[00:48:04] Lord Terran Aga and tell him that he's a mourns the loss of his son which would be a phrase that would be something that maybe.

[00:48:10] You would you would you would learn to say something you may have specifically asked Mariko how can I say this phrase and then said it over and over his head and gone to Lord Terran Aga but there's a moment with the Abashige and John on their own on the ship when Abashige comes to him and says that thing you said the other day I really appreciate it is something like that roughly.

[00:48:30] And John looks at him completely blankly and it's a very that would seem like a much more simple phrase if you're learning if you're learning a new language you learn relatively simple phrases like.

[00:48:40] That was a good thing you said yeah yeah so it's like as if if Mariko didn't come aboard John and Abashige would be going all the way back to not maybe not being able to understand each other like they weren't able to understand each other at the beginning of the series you know so Mariko being aboard.

[00:48:55] At least she can help translate between the two of them as well so thought that was interesting and also speaking of that you know John being aligned to Abashige at the end of the series here when the series started with.

[00:49:09] One of his crew men being boiled alive by the sky and his nephew.

[00:49:14] Being on John kicking him in the dirt you know and now he's aligned with that family of all the people that he could have been aligned with an all of Japan here he is aboard this guy ship working with them that's a really interesting twist in the long tail of John Blackthorn in Japan.

[00:49:28] No absolutely absolutely and I think yeah it's a really interesting twist going into that last episode but speaking of last let us get to our last Bushido Bushido number five.

[00:49:43] Yes meanwhile in the mean while in a sack.

[00:49:46] Yes I mean we've we've already discussed about you know word reaching Lady Shiba and a Shido about Tarnaga surrender and effectively you know in at least a Shido's mind his capitulation but here that you know there are a number of other things that happen over.

[00:50:06] This episode which possibly has a bearing on.

[00:50:14] How strong this alliance between Lady Shiba and a Shido is and possibly the amount of influence that Mariko may have on Lady Shiba because we see the day in the lady day in.

[00:50:30] Dying from a stroke but before she passes away and she warns Lady Shiba of.

[00:50:41] Allying with a Shido and that he came from nothing and is effectively a man of nothing and and that they've picked the wrong side to some extent yeah and this is after a Shido proposing to strengthen this alliance.

[00:50:59] That they have and with through marriage effectively yes the two of them and she doesn't answer him immediately anyway.

[00:51:07] Well there's more to it earlier on yeah but I will leave that with you to think about I think he gets the reaction that he didn't want because he's saying to her not only is he saying.

[00:51:20] To strengthen it to the world is more his his proposal he's saying to strengthen it to the rest of Japan.

[00:51:26] If we get married then they'll understand that our goals are aligned effectively but he's also saying.

[00:51:32] I've always looked at you and looked upon you and loved you since the moment I first saw you when you were brought in as as the.

[00:51:40] Bear of the of the air to the throne of always wanted to be with you and when he gets the reaction that he gets from a shiba really looks like no no I'm here.

[00:51:50] To get revenge that's why I'm here I'm not here to join you the Shido in your plan I'm here to get revenge I'm not even thinking about my future relationship or anything like that and interestingly.

[00:52:03] As the day is dying she's not only telling her they may have aligned the wrong people but she's saying let the prisoners go let you shiba you need to do something about this the people that you've put in prison here in Osaka do not see how bad that is you know.

[00:52:16] Absolutely your your son is going to become the heir to the throne and this is what you're gonna this is the legacy you're gonna leave him with.

[00:52:23] And the time that we saw Toranaga in Osaka he very much was.

[00:52:30] Friendly respectful to the lady down you know who was the wife of the taiko yes like it's really kind of interesting like.

[00:52:43] Development okay it kind of hangs in the air really there's no resolution here but it's kind of interesting sort of.

[00:52:54] Plot lines just hanging there waiting for it to resolve later on where you can you can see that it poses more quandary for lady shiba than.

[00:53:06] It does necessarily convince her to do something about it well I think what I do like about.

[00:53:13] Both scenes is exactly to say both scenes are questions to lady shiba and both go unanswered exact both of them are met with silence in a way almost you know let us she was we mentioned around the season when she arrived the big villain of the series almost she is.

[00:53:31] The other side to Toranaga she's exactly the same as him in some ways she's considering all the possibilities considering all the outcomes she's not a rash person she's not going to be giving her answer to anybody just because they're telling her what she should be doing she's gonna be considering.

[00:53:49] And also the audience or me as a member of the audience watching her I'm going I know which way she's gonna go here I have no idea whether she is going to make.

[00:53:57] This decision of marriage and the series ends with her as the leader of Japan with a shido at her side or.

[00:54:04] Will she go a completely different way will she take the advice of the dayun stop everything walk away from a shido.

[00:54:11] You know I don't know and that's why that's what I think is really interesting about both of those scenes and the character itself things really really interesting to watch yeah definitely.

[00:54:20] I think we've come to the end of our top five bushido's any more notes Derek on this episode only just one thing that I forgot about why.

[00:54:29] John Blackthorne is choosing a bushiga to be the one to align with just because I thought it was quite important and.

[00:54:36] John says he knows he doesn't belong in Japan but that's kind of where fates put him and he needs to make something out of his fate now that's what's left to him.

[00:54:46] And from seeing yabashige fall and be willing to commit sepaku back in the first time he met him.

[00:54:53] He realizes yabashige is also someone that follows his face and will be willing to do whatever it takes to realize his face so that's John's proposal to yabashiga to join up with them so that was.

[00:55:05] Again interesting on their arc of a story yeah no absolutely and also to that point I think that initially encounter between John Blackthorne you know looking to serve yabashige.

[00:55:16] On the ship but it's really good because effectively you can see yabashige contemplating it probably wanting to accept it but refuses it because Mariko.

[00:55:31] Mariko is essentially saying it's treachery that is being proposed to you and army equally is looking at his uncle in terms of what his answer may be so he does refuse this and I think there's even one point where Mariko says do you want me to translate that to do yabashige and she doesn't give yabashige the exact.

[00:55:55] Response of John Blackthorne do I kind of really really enjoyed that yeah translation sort of seen there where John Blackthorne is effectively looking to bail.

[00:56:08] Well no he has been made a free agent so he is looking to see where he can go but his reasoning is that Toran Aga has led them down.

[00:56:20] To a cul-de-sac at the very end of the previous episode he says you're all going to die yes and so he sees that it's almost a hopeless situation for.

[00:56:32] This clan this army these generals or vassals you know yeah and I do wonder whether yabashige is.

[00:56:42] Wondering whether there's another test from Toran Aga we're given everything he's gone through throughout the season is kind of going.

[00:56:48] To turn like a Sen John Blackthorne to test my loyalty with me as well with Mariko right by his side who Mariko is still very close to Toran Aga as we've seen you know.

[00:56:57] The two of them sitting at the room asking yabashige where does the leech and sly you know the proposal from John is that as soon as Toran Aga is dead because he's definitely going to die as soon as he's dead.

[00:57:07] I want to be banned for you I want to be on your side I want to be I want to be working with you and.

[00:57:13] Yabashige responding with well that's not going to happen Toran Aga is going to win this whatever way it works I'm still loyal to my lord so.

[00:57:20] I do wonder if we're going through his mind and all the possibilities that were there maybe this is a test from Toran Aga for me and my loyalty once again.

[00:57:28] But he understands what it would mean for him to say yes you can I think yeah I think certainly from the reaction that Mariko is effectively.

[00:57:40] Saying to to John Blackthorne and to Yabashige as well so yeah I just really like that scene.

[00:57:47] Oh absolutely absolutely well overall John we've got the end of chapter eight of shogun what did you think over all of the episode any final thoughts.

[00:57:57] I absolutely love this episode and just give five plans out of five and I just really like.

[00:58:05] How this all kind of feels like it's fitted together through whether it's a long term strategy or plan whether it's tactical whether it's just.

[00:58:18] Taking the opportunity as it arises I love this kind of master of Lord Toran Aga you know whether it is through all these different.

[00:58:30] Tricks and techniques that he is using it almost feels you know that this is the Japanese version of Macaveli you know from Italy and I really really.

[00:58:43] And enjoying it and it just feels like it all feels so very kind of consistent even though I would say half the conversations that.

[00:58:52] Leads you to that point like for example you know that Hiramatsu and Toran Aga had a conversation to come up with that.

[00:59:04] And spectacle at his palace in front of his generals in front of his trusted advisors and you know they've had that conversation but the fact that it's not shown so it comes as a shock so great storytelling and I just love the whole sort of scale.

[00:59:22] Of this it's really good and I also just so it was kind of neat being in Edo which ultimately is Tokyo it's the you know this so this is where the capital becomes and that's the other thing that's constantly in my sort of in my mind is just that you know.

[00:59:39] Toran Aga's seat of power is effectively what becomes the capital of Japan absolutely so and you know whatever he does here lays the foundation and in terms of these.

[00:59:54] Plans machinations strategy and even that whole thing you know it's not about my clan it's not about this clan it's about for a car.

[01:00:04] Absolutely loved it yet five plans out five great plans great plan yes meticulously planned plans that actually because I do wonder you know if the plan itself just quickly to talk about that because I love the episode as well and I'm thinking I'm constantly thinking about things that happened to me.

[01:00:21] I'm wondering if his plan was set in motion with him saying I'm going to surrender and his mind he was going to take whatever chance you're gonna take in next week's episode with Mariko.

[01:00:31] That was his plan then his son died and now he's been able to build on that plan let's say to expand upon it now he's been able to make sure that a second know he's at his weakest point make sure he's lost his greatest allies all of those.

[01:00:46] Lost his greatest ally there's discord amongst all his his key generals and he's surrounded by his half brothers army waiting to bring him back.

[01:00:59] It's smoke and mirrors it's theater that he's providing for them and I love that they do she is still not convinced until she's got his face pressed in supplication you know so I really really enjoying this absolutely absolutely but I do I do wonder if the original plan.

[01:01:15] Surrender before any of this happened that was still the cogs were working in his mind that.

[01:01:22] I will I will say I'm surrounding but I'm not really going to surrender in the future I have some plan there but it's now been expanded upon quite considerably because of his son's death yeah yeah and as he said you bought me time exactly.

[01:01:34] You earned me time yeah and speaking of time I think it's time to get some other feedback from our fellow warriors about chapter seven last week's episode to cast your mind back in time yes at first up we have an email from a tomato Von do.

[01:01:52] Yo warriors just a couple of random thoughts turn aga's description of his brother was right on point what a jerk nag a car to once again exercised poor judgement what a sad way to die he should have enlisted bun Tara against a guy.

[01:02:10] How is the mortician to make a living with all these heads being lost I'm surprised John Blackthorn keeps his head after tossing insults to the vessels.

[01:02:21] Sayonara Hatamoto Von doom well absolutely that that challenge at the end of episode seven from John Blackthorn is literally that and but I guess they're predicament with.

[01:02:36] Tara naga's half brother sort of and his forces assembled in front of them it may be just not the right time or place but ultimately it is a direct challenge and an insulting or disrespectful challenge to and vessels of Lord Tara naga so yeah interesting.

[01:02:55] But again I wonder did turn aga take the opportunity to stick moves there and just cost John Blackthorn loose because John Blackthorn is the unknown quantity that.

[01:03:05] Turn aga has on his side a second may fear what John Blackthorn has been teaching turn aga and his forces about yeah about Western ways so now he's cut him free he's kicked him out he sent him to the curb.

[01:03:17] And there's a reason for it because he was so insulting to them so if the story gets back to them there's a story there for John Blackthorn as well.

[01:03:23] Yeah exactly great stuff.

[01:03:24] Another layer of the cake yeah exactly thanks so much has a motor von doom yes thanks so much has a motor von doom we also got an email in from Lisa says hi Derek and John thanks for the wonderful discussion of show gun I am a new listener of your show and happy to offend such a thoughtful podcast okay let's be clear but Tara does not love Marico he is the classic abuser a cowardly weak man who seeks to feel important by destroying his partner.

[01:03:50] He knew that she was marrying beneath her station.

[01:03:53] As she pointed out he saw her practicing her samurai skills and knew she was more than worthy and that he was unworthy.

[01:04:00] He said to turn aga that he thought she would be grateful when he saved her from death and has been waiting for her to be grateful.

[01:04:06] He can only feel manly when his partners are broken.

[01:04:09] He keeps her around hoping that he can break her and because it allows him to use his power over her but as she pointed out to Blackthorn she won't give him anything.

[01:04:18] What he feels is not love it is also not about seeing her greater purpose for the cause and wanting her to live.

[01:04:24] He wants to kill Blackthorn because he is now being forced to see that she will never feel for him what he has been trying to make her feel but he has convinced himself it is her problem and not his.

[01:04:36] He now sees that she is in fact capable which only reinforces that it is he who is unworthy and on manly thoughts thanks Lisa.

[01:04:46] That's excellently put Lisa couldn't I couldn't have said it better and didn't say it better when I was talking about it earlier on but that's absolutely who Buntero is.

[01:04:55] He is that classic abuser who believes what he wants he should be getting he wants her to love him doesn't really love her he doesn't even know what it is.

[01:05:04] And in this episode I think we get a great moment from Madako in chapter eight.

[01:05:09] We got that great moment from Marika where she reveals to him I've never loved you don't know what you're talking about.

[01:05:14] I'd rather live forever than die with you and again he's trying to grant her what she's wanted from him which is death but for his reasons so it can be a protest against Lord Taranaga not because she wants death she's he's finally granting it.

[01:05:31] He wants to do even his father sees that as well and denies him the chance to follow his father in sepica.

[01:05:42] Exactly exactly brilliantly so thanks so much and great to hear your new listener of TV podcast industry.

[01:05:47] Absolutely thanks so much Lisa for the feedback really really great and on Facebook Jamie Lawson says being a player of total war show gone to I was quite pleased to see that Ashida's ships were familiar to me.

[01:06:02] Oh very good so another massive detail again.

[01:06:06] The detail of the show is incredible.

[01:06:08] I was watching a video about the actual tea ceremony from the person who taught them how to do the tea ceremony in this episode of the show and they were saying that tea ceremonies can last between 40 minutes to four hours depending on the whole purpose of it is to ensure you show trust between the two people.

[01:06:23] That you do because everybody's involved that you're working together it's a really important service and that's the kind of level of authenticity they brought to the show so interesting that the same.

[01:06:33] Ships that were used in a video game total total war show going to are also being brought into the into the show here so you recognize them from there very cool very cool Jamie absolutely thanks Jamie.

[01:06:44] Also on Facebook Dr Bob Phillips says why shouldn't time be measured in alternative units I found myself asking as this episode started for example Daleks mentioned time in Wells and Napoleon did something unspeakable with clocks didn't he why not have a show that lasts 1.4 candle inches.

[01:07:06] Oh my God what the hell is his brother doing essentially this episode had me mildly watching to full energy absorption in a heartbeat.

[01:07:15] Have we knocked over Torin Argers peace in defeat did Blackthorn really huff off or is it an engine cunning ruse how traumatic is that childhood is this the first authorized red light district.

[01:07:30] This is why ponds need covers or close adult supervision because children can die in them why is there only one episode left.

[01:07:40] Well Dr Bob it will be very good for you to hear that there is another three episodes to go well including this one after eight and another two more remaining yet 10 episode series the perfect count for a TV show 2.8 candle inches.

[01:07:59] So I'm left to go after episode 8 but no I love this running commentary from Dr Bob it does feel like he's watching and and reacting to what's happening on the screen that exactly the same time I love what I got to got to Dr Bob talking about the time being measured in units and then suddenly going what the hell is his brother doing.

[01:08:20] Because that's what it feels like sometimes pay attention to the show or it will come and bite you or shake you and then wake you up very quickly what does well that's true and I mean whether it is the taranaga peace on the chess board that has been knocked over in surrender or whether.

[01:08:38] It is a ruse maybe the ruse includes old John Blackthorn having his little huff and puff and throwing a little hissy fit maybe I'm not sure.

[01:08:50] Whether you trust John that much no I don't think it does especially just that comment that he made in this episode of they do exactly what you expect them to do does to the other.

[01:08:59] John they may think they're really smart but they do exactly well that's it I think the engine is a distraction for people yeah it allows an element of distraction yes why is this guy in his court why has he been given.

[01:09:13] Given Hatter motto why is he been given these honors when we've heard it from on me so I think there's a distraction element here to why he's brought on board not just getting.

[01:09:26] Tactics yeah yeah so interesting and Dr Bob I do want to know what it was that Napoleon did with clocks is it something like you created the 10 day working week I have no idea like it's that's something in the back of my mind I've just got Cartman from South Park in my mind at this time.

[01:09:43] Okay but I don't know I don't know why but anyway thanks so much that Bob we have got some comments over on YouTube first up Sarah says oh my god this podcast about showgun just appeared on my recommendations and I heard an Irish accent as an Irish girl adoring the show it's amazing that you that YouTube.

[01:10:00] Finally shows me things I want.

[01:10:03] Fantastic Sarah hope you're hope you enjoyed the podcast as well actually I meant to mention and Google podcast is shutting down so we're moving all over podcast from Google podcasts over to YouTube at the moment so.

[01:10:14] They are audio podcast of course just like all of our podcasts but you should be able to get most of them now over on YouTube and a good function of that especially if you can't understand by Irish accent occasionally is that there are of course subtitles on our YouTube videos so you can watch along with the subtitles.

[01:10:31] Hopefully the subtitles are translated correctly from our accents so but they are there so hopefully I'll help in our understanding if there's words that were pronouncing correctly and.

[01:10:42] It will still be spelt incorrectly in the subtitles though.

[01:10:44] Yeah excellent.

[01:10:45] Welcome both Sarah absolutely thanks Sarah David says I haven't read the book so I don't know what will happen next but my guess is that Toran Aga and his half brother Sakai have a secret plot to double cross.

[01:10:57] She though Toran Aga is pretending to surrender to his half brother and allowed to be escorted back to a sack of castle this way Toran Aga is able to avoid the very dangerous task of trying to fight his way to a sack with a smaller army against a larger foe.

[01:11:11] Once at a sack of castle Sakai will reveal the double cross and side with Toran Aga with his full army at the gates of Osaka that's my current theory so it's actually providence that causes Toran Aga's son's foot to slip and save Sakai from being killed by the son who doesn't know the plan and was trying to murder Sakai.

[01:11:30] What do others think of my idea.

[01:11:32] Well David I think that is a fantastic idea and theory.

[01:11:36] That's cool.

[01:11:37] I think it's really good and actually you just wouldn't put it past Toran Aga doing that and who knows maybe there is something in that to come I mean it feels less so from episode eight it feels like he's it's much more contained but nonetheless I think that's a you know it's like the Trojan horse approach effectively but less hidden I guess.

[01:12:03] Well yeah yeah would actually hidden under the guise the Trojan horse of surrender you know basically yes so I really really like that idea yeah.

[01:12:14] That's great David thanks for that.

[01:12:15] Thank you so much David for that wonderful theory.

[01:12:19] Yeah it's really cool.

[01:12:20] And finally we have John in Osaka who says Bunteru actually loves Mariko but he is too emotionally immature to deal with her lack of love for him.

[01:12:32] I think there's probably you know a good amount of truth in that as well I think you know.

[01:12:39] I know it's almost cliche to say but in his own weird way he probably does thinks it does or he thinks he does exactly it is that immaturity and I think whilst there is probably great intimacy and so on around the tea ceremony and how you project feelings through that or you know that as you say teen.

[01:13:01] You know working together to make this this cup of tea I guess from a modern perspective it's that emotional detachment of showing it through that that seems strange exactly but that's maybe what they did more so it's that.

[01:13:18] Emotional detachment still it's formalizing it yeah through the tea ceremony yeah but there's not the intimacy or that in a sense Mariko has experienced.

[01:13:31] With with John Black thought yes there's also so little behind the tea ceremony from Bunteru he's not calling on no remember that day for about that time I brought you talk but bought your chocolate to brought you to dinner and brought you to your favorite favorite play you know there's none of that stuff.

[01:13:49] Remember that time I got absolutely drunk with an engine and then fired arrows pass exactly.

[01:13:58] Yeah he has he has nothing to show here he's saying to remember that time when we met first when we were so in love and she's going out remember that that didn't exist you're building it up in your mind and I think you know to go back to the point made earlier on of the classic abuser we often.

[01:14:12] Are told that he does love her in his own way we're often told yeah that idea that someone that would actually hit their partner.

[01:14:21] Beat them for doing things that had nothing to do with them would be anybody for doing things that have nothing to do with them but beat the person they're supposed to love that they do love them in their own way should stick with me so okay that was just a bad moment you know this is this moment here in the seps of proves to me.

[01:14:35] But I had no idea what love is and is trying to use the classic trappings to convince Mariko that he does lover when actually there's nothing there.

[01:14:45] I completely agree yeah that's why it's a cliche thing from his perspective exactly exactly thinks he does in the way he does it yeah and it's not.

[01:14:57] That's that love no no.

[01:14:59] Excellent stuff thanks John for the feedback and thank you to all our fellow warriors and for your thoughts theories on an episode seven of show gun can't wait to hear what you thought of this episode episode eight.

[01:15:15] Yes absolutely thanks so much for all of your feedback and thanks so much for joining us for this podcast about show gun has been great having all the new listeners that are listening to us just for show gun on our 10th anniversary year.

[01:15:26] Bringing in brand new listeners is always good fun so I'm really enjoying the show and looking forward to the last two chapters of show gun.

[01:15:34] Yes for sure can't wait to see how this unfolds and remember fellow warriors that we will be back next Wednesday with our chat all about show gun chapter nine crimson sky yes.

[01:15:52] The crimson sky finally comes to pass.

[01:15:54] A brief moment I thought I had said crimson tide in this episode already.

[01:15:59] It's not the time class you know I think so.

[01:16:02] I don't know that's right October that's completely different it's late.

[01:16:07] I'm starting to fade.

[01:16:10] I totally understand totally understand that thank you so much for joining us to speak to you next time.

[01:16:14] Yeah thank you so much fellow warriors until chapter nine of show gun.

[01:16:19] Remember keep watching and keep listening.

[01:16:22] Bye bye.