Shogun Chapter 3 Tomorrow is Tomorrow Podcast

[00:00:00] This is TV Podcast Industries, and we're talking about Shogun Chapter 3. Tomorrow is tomorrow. To show your true heart is to risk your life. What happened to Peace Farm?

[00:00:27] He will be killed.

[00:00:29] And all of us. Welcome back fellow warriors to TV podcast industries.

[00:00:56] We're here talking about chapter three of Shogun.

[00:01:00] Tomorrow is tomorrow.

[00:01:02] I am one of your hosts, Jon.

[00:01:04] I'm one of your other hosts, Derek.

[00:01:05] Welcome back, Derek, to our third installment of, I guess, the Shogun podcast on TV podcast

[00:01:13] industries.

[00:01:14] After doing the first two episodes, which all came out on the first day, we'll now be

[00:01:20] going into our weekly rhythms of Shogun for this 10 chapter series.

[00:01:28] Absolutely.

[00:01:29] You know what?

[00:01:30] I'm really excited to hear some of the feedback and some of the thoughts of our fellow warriors

[00:01:34] on Shogun.

[00:01:35] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:01:36] We've been very lucky to be able to see these episodes before anybody else.

[00:01:39] Really, we've been able to get previews for the first eight episodes and we've been really

[00:01:43] excited about it because this feels, as we said in last episode, this feels like something brand new, but I have

[00:01:48] no idea what the reaction's going to be of our listeners. I know loads of people are

[00:01:52] excited about it, loads of people have read the book. It's a very, very famous book. But

[00:01:56] really have no idea. The epic scale of the show again is something that we haven't seen

[00:02:00] in such a long time. So I'm excited to hear what everybody has to think, has to say about it. I mean, I think at the moment for me anyway, I could just kind of absorb this stuff. I

[00:02:09] mean, it's interesting that we've just watched an animated series in Blue Eyed Samurai, like

[00:02:15] we've mentioned previously, effectively around the same kind of ideas, same kind of time

[00:02:20] periods.

[00:02:21] So much time periods, yeah.

[00:02:22] Yeah, and I could just take more of it. I mean, it feels to me as much a history as

[00:02:28] well as a cultural lesson. It's really, really interesting. It's really, really epic. It

[00:02:36] really kind of sheds a light on sort of boundaries that are continually smashed. You think of first cultures meeting one another.

[00:02:51] Did they come in peace? Did they come in with war as their aim? Was it territorial? Was

[00:02:59] it conquest? But all this period of different cultures being met by other cultures,

[00:03:07] I guess in this instance, you know, Sal is to say it is the West that is this kind of

[00:03:14] domineering culture and certainly that's what happened in sort of North and Southern Americas. And again, the same intentions to do this in the East, in

[00:03:29] Asia. And it's just really interesting that they came up against a culture that was somehow

[00:03:37] able to resist.

[00:03:38] ALICE Well, absolutely. Just indomitable culture,

[00:03:40] you know, I think.

[00:03:41] JUSTIN Yeah, more of the challenge and more of the

[00:03:42] story that we're gonna get throughout Shogun is about the civil wars that were going on during this

[00:03:46] period of Japan. And maybe that's an opening for the West to be able to come in and take

[00:03:51] what they want out of that culture, out of the society, take the things that they want

[00:03:56] back to the West, or maybe they'll be able to form up against the West and not be overtaken.

[00:04:03] So we obviously, you know we obviously understand the history of Japan

[00:04:07] overall, but this time period is a very tumultuous one and there's lots going on, even within

[00:04:12] Japan and the way in that we see here is through the eyes of Jana time. But what I'm really

[00:04:18] enjoying about this show is we're not being hand-held through everything that's going

[00:04:23] on between this nation. We're not having a-held through everything that's going on between this nation.

[00:04:25] You know, we're not having, you know, a translator coming along and just telling us what the

[00:04:30] impact of that person is. We're seeing it a little bit through John's eyes, but a lot of times we're

[00:04:34] spending time with the Japanese people, with these, you know, many factions, let's say,

[00:04:40] over the course of the story and then seeing their story.

[00:04:43] Yeah, and the fact that it's subtitled is perfect. I mean, it absolutely adds that sense

[00:04:48] of authenticity because, I mean, you know, we do have to be mindful that it is a novel about Japan,

[00:04:55] about the West's influence and insertion into Japan by an Australian-born British

[00:05:09] to Japan by an Australian-born British writer, as he later came to be, screenwriter and so on.

[00:05:10] And so, as I say, it's a book I always remember from my parents' bookshelves.

[00:05:15] Never read it because it looked so massive, and I was put off by it, and I've never gotten

[00:05:20] round to it.

[00:05:21] So I'm really intrigued with this adaptation of it because it feels really good.

[00:05:26] And, you know, if it's faithful to the book or if they're making, or if there are,

[00:05:33] you know, big or major changes from the book, I would be interested to know because so

[00:05:39] far I'm really enjoying this adaptation of the material of James Clouvelle.

[00:05:45] Absolutely. It's been really interesting seeing some of the press material coming out.

[00:05:49] As I say, we've seen a lot of the episodes now, but as people are seeing the names of

[00:05:54] characters have been marginally changed from the book, maybe to define them a bit better

[00:05:58] for the characters or seeing the costumes on screen for the first time and seeing fans

[00:06:03] of the book and fans of the 1980 Shogun series, hearing their comments about them. It's interesting to be interesting

[00:06:10] to get their take on how and how they find the show when it eventually does come out

[00:06:14] and they can see the episodes for themselves. So hopefully, later on in our feedback section,

[00:06:18] we'll have some feedback in from our fellow warriors. But of course, if you haven't subscribed

[00:06:23] to our podcast, we have been podcasting for 10 years this month, I think, as we're releasing this episode. But if you haven't

[00:06:31] subscribed yet, you can subscribe over on TV Podcast Industries dot com. But as I said,

[00:06:36] we do want to hear your feedback, so you can email us at any time on any of the shows that

[00:06:39] we're covering to feedback at TV Podcast Industries dot com. Yes. Or you can of course come on over to our Facebook group at Facebook dot com forward slash groups

[00:06:49] forward slash TV Podcast Industries, where we all have a spoiler post for each and every episode of

[00:06:57] this season of Shogun. I mean, interestingly as well, you know, James Clouvel wrote this sort of epic Asiatic series.

[00:07:09] So not just Shogun, but a load of other novels in the same form and connected.

[00:07:16] So you know, huge amount of material here.

[00:07:19] So you just wonder, you know, if there's more to come.

[00:07:25] Well, absolutely.

[00:07:26] Depending on ratings, I guess, and all the other stuff that needs to be proven before

[00:07:30] things sort of enter off into multiple seasons.

[00:07:34] Exactly.

[00:07:35] I'm hoping it's a big success given what we've seen so far.

[00:07:37] Yeah.

[00:07:38] Definitely.

[00:07:39] But let us get into our spoiler-filled discussion of chapter three of Shogun. Tomorrow is tomorrow. Derek,

[00:07:48] who gave us what, where, when, how and why.

[00:07:51] ALICE Well, as you mentioned, James LaVell is the

[00:07:53] writer of the original 1975 novel that this show is based on. This episode was written

[00:07:58] by Shannon Goss. She was actually an executive brief on The Walking Dead, Darryl Dixon, last

[00:08:02] year and wrote an episode for that series, El Dame de Faire.

[00:08:04] ALICE Interesting. ALICE Yeah, I really enjoyed the Darryl Dixon Walking Dead, Darrell Dixon last year and wrote episode four of that series, El D'Amne de Faire.

[00:08:05] Interesting.

[00:08:06] Yeah.

[00:08:07] I really enjoyed the Darrell Dixon Walking Dead show.

[00:08:08] It was great.

[00:08:09] Very different.

[00:08:10] Yeah.

[00:08:11] I kind of enjoyed that after sort of, I don't want to say it's migrating away, at least

[00:08:16] in my mind, from The Walking Dead series.

[00:08:19] Yeah.

[00:08:20] I think you watched every single episode with me, but you were kind of watching it on your

[00:08:23] phone for The

[00:08:25] Walking Dead. But Daryl Dixon was a very different show. Again, I was kind of exploring French

[00:08:29] culture at times throughout that show. Not the same way, of course, as Shogun, but interesting,

[00:08:35] I suppose, after spending so many years walking around the Georgia area with The Walking Dead,

[00:08:40] it felt like something very different. So great to have Shannon over here for it.

[00:08:45] Shogun.

[00:08:46] Yeah, definitely.

[00:08:47] The director of the episode is Charlotte Branstrom. We've talked about Charlotte many, many times

[00:08:52] of the podcast. Yeah, she's directed two episodes of The Witcher Season 1 and directed the two

[00:08:56] highest rated episodes of The Rings of Power Episode 6, Oudun, and Episode 7, The Eye,

[00:09:02] which I'm really, really happy to say those are just two excellent

[00:09:06] episodes of TV on Prime Video, really, really good. She'll be back to direct the first episode

[00:09:11] of the second season of Rings of Power, which we're hoping to get to see sometime this year,

[00:09:15] potentially.

[00:09:16] Excellent stuff. It's amazing, isn't it? Really, all this intertwining of really good directors

[00:09:22] on TV doing... You can see I mean, you can see, you

[00:09:26] know, as we said, for the first two episodes, you know, this is a real epic field.

[00:09:30] So did the Rings of Power.

[00:09:32] So does the witch.

[00:09:33] I mean, it's world building, which, you know, this needs to be because it's building the

[00:09:38] world of Japan being visited for the first time ever by, you know, the main protagonist

[00:09:44] in John Blackthorn.

[00:09:46] So, you know, it's really important.

[00:09:49] It's really interesting that they picked on who has had to build the world of these

[00:09:53] fantasy episodes as well.

[00:09:55] Yeah, exactly.

[00:09:55] Exactly.

[00:09:56] And you can see that connective tissue.

[00:09:58] You can see the idea of those transferable skills or how to do that.

[00:10:03] You know, what's important for it? What do they

[00:10:05] need to show that really gets to the crux of it? I think this is what you get here with

[00:10:13] the Shogun.

[00:10:14] Well, absolutely. Just great to see Charlotte and Bovart here. But if we do ever get to interview

[00:10:17] Charlotte about all the work that she's done, John, please don't ask her a question about

[00:10:21] her transferable skills. It will seem like a different type of interview than the interviews you usually do.

[00:10:26] Well that is true. But you know what I mean?

[00:10:28] I do, absolutely.

[00:10:29] Yeah, exactly. The director is directing all the different units of production throughout,

[00:10:36] as well as the artistic and so on.

[00:10:39] Absolutely.

[00:10:40] So it is about multitasking, transferable skills, however dull and boring that may sound.

[00:10:46] ALICE It just sounds like you're trying to interfere

[00:10:47] in a different way for a job, that's all. Great stuff. John, do you want to tell us

[00:10:52] what they gave us with your quick synopsis for Shogun Chapter 3 Tomorrow is Tomorrow?

[00:10:57] JUSTIN After John Blackthorn survives a brazen

[00:11:01] assassination attempt, Toranaga realises he must ferry his allies out of Osaka

[00:11:07] or risk certain defeat.

[00:11:10] Ooh, the escape episode.

[00:11:13] It is, but it's an escape episode that I really, really enjoy because it is kind of... you're

[00:11:23] damned if you stay and you're damned if you go.

[00:11:26] So you might as well go because at least you've got more chance of surviving once you've

[00:11:31] gone and you're in your own heartlands and area of power and influence.

[00:11:39] But staying behind in Osaka, it is kind of like the pig being reared and fattened for slaughter.

[00:11:49] There's nothing you can do.

[00:11:50] You're just waiting for the exit to fall.

[00:11:52] Exactly.

[00:11:53] Kind of what John heard last week from Rodriguez, the plans are theirs, the games are theirs,

[00:11:59] and you can't do anything at all.

[00:12:00] This is kind of the feeling that Toronaga has here.

[00:12:03] If he stays, he has no way of controlling

[00:12:05] his fate. If he leaves, but there's a potential opportunity here for him. And yeah, danger

[00:12:09] every turn throughout this episode.

[00:12:11] Exactly. And I think, you know, on the face of it, a very simple episode of one of Escape

[00:12:17] from Osaka. Underneath this is there are different levels of appreciation beginning to develop in both senses from John

[00:12:28] Blackthorn and from the barbarian to the savage, that kind of idea. But also equally, there

[00:12:39] is an appreciation of this kind of savage of John Blackthorn and his courage, or at least his actions

[00:12:48] in the face of diversity. It's building a bedrock or foundations of something between

[00:12:57] these two intrinsic protagonists of this epic. So I really like that. But shall we get into our top Bushidos of the episode?

[00:13:09] Absolutely. Absolutely. Let's go into the kind of opening escape. The Bushido one is

[00:13:14] Escape from Osaka. Yes. And it's a very interesting opening because we talk about the assassination

[00:13:20] attempt from the previous week that it was the society of the Amida, which are a very well-known society in this era, a group of people that always get their target.

[00:13:31] We hear from Mariko when she's explaining to John who the assassins were that this

[00:13:37] person was someone that was part of the court for many, many years and almost activated

[00:13:41] to kill John. She was there to be in a position where if

[00:13:45] they needed her, she would perform the assassination and only failed because of the exchange of

[00:13:52] John from his room by Toranaga.

[00:13:55] ALICE Yeah, absolutely. I think the other interesting

[00:13:58] thing here with this Escape from Osaka, I really like the intro of this episode with Toranaga and Yabushiga.

[00:14:08] And talking about these assassins and the society of Amida, as you say, and the talk

[00:14:17] of betrayal and what did Ashido offer to him, you know?

[00:14:25] And did it interest you?

[00:14:27] What is your price?

[00:14:28] All these kind of words coming from Toranaga to Yabushige.

[00:14:33] It's like, I think, you know, you get this sense here, Toranaga, this is almost like

[00:14:38] the purest form of better the devil you know than that I've seen in a show for quite a long time. I think Torin Aga absolutely understands

[00:14:50] that Yabushige is wholly ambitious and it is the pathway to that ambition that will dictate his

[00:14:58] decisions. And at the same time, he's clever enough to not necessarily be constrained by protocols

[00:15:09] and so on.

[00:15:10] But he's willing to weigh up the probabilities and to play both sides.

[00:15:17] So in a sense, I actually wonder whether Torin Agate sees a bit of himself in Yabushige.

[00:15:25] Oh yeah.

[00:15:26] And because we have a great line from Toronaga to his son later on in the episode, which

[00:15:34] I feel is exactly the philosophy of Toronaga.

[00:15:40] And I think that's Yabushige's as well.

[00:15:42] You know, Toronaga says, you're playing a game of friends and enemies when in this life you only have yourself.

[00:15:50] ALICE And I think that is exactly Yabushige as well.

[00:15:54] ALICE Yeah, yeah, totally agree. You know,

[00:15:56] we often talk about Game of Thrones, even though we didn't cover it in the podcast,

[00:16:00] and part of the reason why Game of Thrones is so well loved and is such an example of

[00:16:05] great television is because it was one of the first shows that properly brought to screen

[00:16:09] this ability to see characters trying to use everything around them to play the game right,

[00:16:15] to get themselves in the best position.

[00:16:18] Game of Thrones was not the first book to do that by any means.

[00:16:21] There are hundreds of examples of that.

[00:16:23] There's hundreds of examples of TV shows that have attempted to do characters who are trying to navigate themselves through

[00:16:29] really difficult situations. And I do think that Yabushiga is that type of character.

[00:16:34] He's basically trying to see a few steps ahead. If Torunaga loses his head at the hands of

[00:16:41] Bushido, which is very likely at this moment. And he's declared himself

[00:16:47] as Bannerman, for want of a better word, for Toranaga, then he's left with no other options.

[00:16:53] If he starts to play the game right, he could put himself in a prime position for an even

[00:16:58] better place within the new world after the death of Torinaga. That's kind of where he's positioning himself.

[00:17:06] So Torinaga understands that. Torinaga understands that he has to make the plan to keep himself

[00:17:11] alive, but he won't complain too much about somebody else making other plans in case something

[00:17:17] happens, but he wants to keep his people on side because they also get a mate of things. ALICE He does think he's going to lose his head. He feels he's being brought up there to be killed, executed for that betrayal.

[00:17:33] You even see Hiramatsu sort of slightly unclip his sword.

[00:17:37] He says, are you going to take my head?

[00:17:40] And in the end, Toronago is know, watch the sun rise with me. And, you know, and he says, I need to get the Anjin and Lady Kiri out of Saka to your

[00:17:51] village effect, or one of the villages in your fief.

[00:17:55] Yes, he's definitely a dulce.

[00:17:57] In Ejiro.

[00:17:58] So what do you want for that to happen?

[00:18:01] You know, if you didn't take up a shield as offer to replace him on

[00:18:06] the council of regents, he says, well, what is your price? You know, a really clever thing in that,

[00:18:13] okay, so you've been offered 100, here's 100, well, I'm going to ask you, what actually do you want?

[00:18:18] Exactly. Yeah.

[00:18:20] Grant, you can get Suruga Province to expand the boundaries of your

[00:18:27] fief and become more powerful if you do this.

[00:18:31] If you get a say.

[00:18:31] And of course, he agrees to do it because he's playing both sides of,

[00:18:35] he's in the middle here.

[00:18:37] Yes.

[00:18:38] He's still playing both sides.

[00:18:40] And I just really like this, you know, in terms of setting up this escape from Osaka

[00:18:46] between these two men, because I think that it's really, I think they're kind of the same

[00:18:52] side of the same coin almost.

[00:18:54] Well, I think anybody that's successful in these types of situations are similar. It's not even

[00:18:59] playing both sides because that wouldn't fair playing both sides against each other. It's

[00:19:04] trying to play the game to the best benefit of yourself effectively.

[00:19:07] And I do like the kind of running joke about Yabushiga and his, I guess his nervousness

[00:19:13] that he may lose his head at any time.

[00:19:15] It opens, the entire episode opens with him writing his will and he's talking to his aid,

[00:19:21] his advisor that we've seen throughout the series saying to him, I think this is the best one we've written so far. And then later on when they're going into another

[00:19:29] very dangerous situation, he actually says, no, I don't think I need to write another will. I think

[00:19:33] I'm okay in this situation. So he does genuinely think, potentially at any time, he could be losing

[00:19:38] his head. So I do like that little running joke. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And I-

[00:19:45] I like Gallo's humor.

[00:19:46] Yeah, exactly.

[00:19:47] And I think what, you know, this Escape from Osaka as well, I love the fact that there's

[00:19:51] an element of deception here, both to-

[00:19:53] Oh, yeah.

[00:19:54] Yabashiga, despite that deal being done, Yabashiga is unaware of the, you know, the switcheroo

[00:20:02] of the human cargo here in there. Yes, everyone knows the engine is going, but they

[00:20:09] all think, including Ashido, thinks it's Lady Kiri. What I love about this is that the switcheroo,

[00:20:15] where Toronago replaces Lady Kiri in the carriage, then it becomes quite clear that

[00:20:31] then it becomes quite clear that he has only told the women in his life, they remain in his life. There's the distraction of the lady who's pregnant,

[00:20:36] there's Lady Kiri in and of herself, you know, and no one else knows about this until the surprise attack

[00:20:48] on the road. And it's like, it's just all really good. I love this.

[00:20:53] But John does, of course, see it. So John Blackthorn aware of it.

[00:20:56] Yes, he becomes aware of it.

[00:20:58] Which I do really like. But you know, you are right in the synopsis that we've seen,

[00:21:02] you know, it's Teranaga realising that he has to take all of his allies out of Osaka because potentially, you know,

[00:21:09] he could lose one of them. One of them could be taken out as punishment almost for what he's done

[00:21:14] for him actually leaving. So we have Fuji being told by Hiramatsu that she must go after her

[00:21:20] husband and her child have died. That this is the way to honor their loss,

[00:21:28] is to go and work alongside Toronaga. So she's going to go out with him. And then we have

[00:21:36] Mariko being told by her husband, Bud Tarot, that she has to go to the fishing village. She must

[00:21:42] leave now. She has the role, she has to go. He seems

[00:21:45] very unhappy about the situation, but he is under orders to bring his wife and take her

[00:21:51] along with the Anjan to Anjira.

[00:21:54] Yeah, exactly. So, I mean, it's almost the full court going out. It's just Hiramatsu

[00:22:04] and then Lady Kiri who remains behind quietly.

[00:22:08] I do like that Lady Kiri got a little dig in though.

[00:22:10] She was able to say the reason she's leaving is because there's just too many assassins

[00:22:13] around here.

[00:22:14] Yeah, exactly.

[00:22:15] I really like that.

[00:22:16] It was really good.

[00:22:17] So, and again, the tension this builds up when there is the switcheroo and you have Ashido and his kind of main general, Joseon,

[00:22:28] and then also as they're leaving then Osaka, you've got the red tape of just the sentries

[00:22:39] on duty and the gatekeeper, I guess.

[00:22:42] Yeah.

[00:22:43] He was like, no, we need to verify it, even though it's

[00:22:45] just been verified by Ashido and his main general is there escorting them. Which it

[00:22:53] means John has to intervene in order to keep Turan Iker's presence a secret from their

[00:23:01] film. I have to say I really like this. I like John using his aggressive sound and his noise and

[00:23:09] his build to make it look like he's really angry about the treatment of the women within

[00:23:16] this group and how could they possibly do that. Knowing that they can't understand the

[00:23:20] words he's saying, but he'll be able to get across how angry he is and the barbarian kind of coming out and Mariko trying to talk them down enough to distract

[00:23:29] them from going to check this particular container that actually has Toronaga inside it.

[00:23:39] Just long enough.

[00:23:40] Yeah, exactly.

[00:23:41] It's the actrix, the distraction of it.

[00:23:45] And it's interesting because we hear a bit later about Toronago as a boy being put as

[00:23:54] a ransom with a competing family, you know, when he was a kid.

[00:24:01] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:24:02] He understood him.

[00:24:03] It was like a kid, he understood him and sort of the different approaches to warfare,

[00:24:09] almost like the, you know, the game of spies as well as the game of war and the game of diplomacy

[00:24:16] and politics. Like he comes across as a very rounded sort of individual that will use the appropriate kind of tactic at the right time. So

[00:24:27] this is really kind of, I just thought was really, really good.

[00:24:31] Absolutely. Absolutely.

[00:24:32] Yeah.

[00:24:33] Let's go on to a quick one for Bushido number two, the attack on the road.

[00:24:38] Yeah. I mean, well, this is where it all gets revealed in a sense with the again another attack on this convoy in order to kill the

[00:24:46] heretical Christian in John Blackthorn. And interestingly again you see here that Lord

[00:24:57] Kiamma is there at the scene of his dirty work for the priests,

[00:25:05] and as he ambushes them in a forest

[00:25:09] as they make their way to the harbor of Asaka.

[00:25:12] And this is, yeah, everything gets revealed here

[00:25:16] because there's that moment where he says,

[00:25:17] are they fighting amongst themselves down there?

[00:25:21] Are they attacking one another?

[00:25:23] When suddenly, Ashido's men who is escorting these

[00:25:27] honored guests to the harbor suddenly realize that it's Toronago in the carriage, not Lady

[00:25:36] Kiri? We heard earlier, the reason for Ashido being kind of panickety about this is because for high-level guests, they need a day's

[00:25:47] notice before they leave and so on. That's all about control and knowing where your friends

[00:25:55] and enemies are. So I like this how it all kind of went to pot really. The game was up, there was identified, you know, because Toronaga

[00:26:07] is risking everything to leaving Asaka. It is a risk for everyone that is an ally of his. So,

[00:26:17] this I thought was really good though, because we see Mirako getting involved in the fighting with some great skills with that kind of spear

[00:26:28] type weapon.

[00:26:29] Yes, yeah, absolutely. I have to take a note of this. The weapon is called the Naginata.

[00:26:35] They were originally used by Samurai, but it is the iconic weapon in Japan of the Onomusha,

[00:26:41] a female warrior of nobility. So it would be very accurate to the type of weapon that she'd use.

[00:26:48] Interestingly, the actress who plays Mariko, Anna Sawai, who we saw in Monarch, the Godzilla

[00:26:54] show job, she was talking about the fact that she had to learn how to do all this fighting

[00:26:58] and that women during this period would absolutely learn working with these types of weapons, but they

[00:27:05] always have to keep their legs closed at all times while fighting as they would at all

[00:27:10] other times because that's how they dress effectively. So that's the reason why they

[00:27:13] choose these type of longer weapons. That's the reason why they would use them because

[00:27:17] you don't have the same reach if you can't open your legs and swing around like a fighter.

[00:27:22] So interesting touch there at the fight, but very accurate to the period, very accurate at the time. But also it's great for the,

[00:27:29] for just as a, as a person watching the show and enjoying the show, it's great that we see

[00:27:33] Mirako stepping up and she's the one that saves Toronaga from what could potentially be his

[00:27:38] carriage going completely on fire and burning to death inside of it. So she's the one that

[00:27:42] actually saves him, which is really good because there's just that tendency when you have that Westerner

[00:27:47] perspective. You have John Blackthorn here. There's a tendency to have him be the one

[00:27:51] to save people at all times and nobody else be the owners of their story. So you know,

[00:27:57] you could have had that. The only instance in this episode where John really saves them,

[00:28:01] he gives some advice at times and they take the advice and do things with it, which we'll

[00:28:04] talk about in one of the other attacks, let's say, later on in

[00:28:08] the episode. But the only time really is that moment outside of Osaka when he just bellows

[00:28:13] and yells and gets people to avoid going and taking out Teranaga there or finding Teranaga

[00:28:20] there. But the rest of the episode is more a little bit of advice here and there from

[00:28:23] John as an ally to these people, as opposed to him being the saviour that comes in and has to

[00:28:30] win everything, has to be the one that frees everybody, saves everybody at all times.

[00:28:33] Exactly.

[00:28:34] I would agree with that.

[00:28:36] To me, I think John Blackthorn's, I guess, inserting himself into this world and into Torrenaiga's eye line really is because actually he's completely disposable.

[00:28:56] But at each point he survives it. So, I think it's that quality of survival that Torinaga is seeing, you know?

[00:29:06] Absolutely.

[00:29:07] But ultimately, you know, we saw Torinaga saying, yes, he can go to prison when there

[00:29:13] was potential for conflict, potential for his real plans being exposed to Ishido at

[00:29:22] his quarters in Osaka.

[00:29:24] Yeah. You know, yes, he can go to prison and almost get executed.

[00:29:28] Or in this case, and we'll come to this with the escape from the docks, is that he's left

[00:29:35] behind in Osaka for Taranaga to actually escape from Osaka on the Portuguese black ship. Exactly.

[00:29:45] And I suppose the point that I'm trying to make here at this time, or again, as it goes

[00:29:51] through the rest of the episode, the point I'm trying to make is if John wasn't here

[00:29:55] and this same situation happened, if Turinaga still had to escape from Osaka and still had

[00:29:58] to make his deal, everything would have still gone down pretty much the way it happened.

[00:30:03] John isn't the focus of every time people are saved throughout the episode, which would be a tendency of,

[00:30:09] well, let's say pretty poor writing from a decade or two ago. So I'm glad we're seeing

[00:30:14] John's story plus we're seeing Merikko's story and we're seeing Toronaga's story and they're

[00:30:19] all intertwining as opposed to being, hey look, it's John Blackthorne saving everybody

[00:30:23] as he busts

[00:30:25] his way through Japan.

[00:30:26] JS Exactly.

[00:30:27] Yeah.

[00:30:28] ALICE But finally, on the attack on the road piece,

[00:30:30] the actual fight itself, I thought was really, really well staged.

[00:30:33] I loved this idea of seeing the Christian samurais, effectively the samurais working

[00:30:38] for the Christians, attacking from one side, and then the two rival factions who were supposed

[00:30:43] to be together, Ashida's army

[00:30:46] and Yabushiga's army going at it on the road as well, because it felt like, who am I focusing

[00:30:51] on here?

[00:30:52] Who are the people that are supposed to focus on here?

[00:30:53] It felt like a really good battle.

[00:30:54] The confusion of that tight quarter battle, and I think the confusion from Kiyami was

[00:31:00] like, are they attacking one another?

[00:31:02] Because with Toronaga's cover being blown, you know, you've got Yabushige,

[00:31:07] who's like feeling there's a betrayal here.

[00:31:10] Once again, yeah.

[00:31:11] And there's Joseon, who's having to, you know, realizing that they've been tricked.

[00:31:19] And he needs to report back the truth of the matter back to Ashuze.

[00:31:24] Exactly. he needs to report back the truth of the matter back to Isuse. So, you know, it's really good.

[00:31:27] And this battle then, I think going on to Bushido number three, you know, continues

[00:31:32] through as they make their way to the docks in order to escape from Osaka.

[00:31:39] But what we hear is that, you know, we have the regent, Kiana, say that, you know, get the men ready in the harbour.

[00:31:50] And so again, the danger is not over, it's just that the battle has moved to the docks.

[00:31:56] And I think of note here is we see Mirakao's husband here, Toda Hirakatsu or Bun-Taro, as he's kind of affectionately known as, I

[00:32:10] think, in a sense.

[00:32:12] And-

[00:32:13] It feels like a title or a-

[00:32:14] Yeah, it's-

[00:32:15] Maybe a nickname.

[00:32:16] A title, yeah.

[00:32:17] I don't think he has much affection in them.

[00:32:18] That's not a respect to it, I'd say.

[00:32:19] No, he certainly doesn't give much affection, as we saw when they were leaving Toronaga's quarters. He feels his sauna is

[00:32:28] wet, I guess, ultimately. But we have him, first of all, sort of slowing down Kiyama's

[00:32:38] soldiers so that Toronaga and the rest of the group can make it to the docks in order to get on the ships. Yeah. But we see him left on the docks fighting as the samurai warrior, you know?

[00:32:53] Yeah.

[00:32:53] That classic thing that you see were Toranaga and him from a distance, exchanging customs and boughs of respect for him,

[00:33:08] effectively accepting that he may die in the service of his Lord here.

[00:33:16] And he's totally willing to, though.

[00:33:18] That's the honour of his position, the honour of what he's trying to do.

[00:33:22] He's allowing his lord escape, his wife

[00:33:25] to escape as well, which is, you know, also pretty important.

[00:33:27] There is a really nice moment though, I think, in his eyes where it's the realization that

[00:33:33] they aren't coming back to get him, or he can't get on a boat, whatever it is.

[00:33:41] And it's quite good because it kind of chimes with John Blackthorne saying, we must go back and get him, you know.

[00:33:46] And then he sees this kind of devoted sacrifice,

[00:33:50] and you know, this almost ceremonial sacrifice.

[00:33:53] And it's really interesting.

[00:33:55] And it also kind of harks back to the fact that, you know,

[00:33:58] Blackthorne has had interest in Bontaro, you know,

[00:34:01] asking Mariko about her husband, you know, or actually just putting

[00:34:06] two and two together that he is her husband and so on. And I, you know, I think in that

[00:34:13] moment it all kind of coalesces really nicely that here's the end of this character as he

[00:34:19] faces Kiana's troops.

[00:34:21] Exactly. Yeah, what a way to go. Yeah.

[00:34:23] Yeah, it seems like a proper warrior moment when you see him just from the docks

[00:34:27] as a few of them come down, and it almost seems like the rest of Kiamma's troops are

[00:34:33] standing away.

[00:34:34] It's almost like they're scared of Buntaro, because he's such a good warrior and has defeated

[00:34:38] so many of them.

[00:34:39] There's almost that moment.

[00:34:41] So he has a rush at them, and that's kind of last we see of Al Bontaro as the ship's pull out. Again, Mariko being very stoic in this loss of her

[00:34:53] husband. John is the one that's screaming. John's the one that's saying we should be

[00:34:57] going back for him. We can't leave him behind, you know, but realizes again, if they were,

[00:35:02] he'd be putting everybody else in danger. Yeah, absolutely.

[00:35:05] Pretty good.

[00:35:06] And then, as we say, the deal here with the captain of the Portuguese black ship.

[00:35:13] Interestingly, though, this captain really doesn't seem to give two Fs about whether

[00:35:18] he's allowed to leave or is being given permission to leave by anyone in the Japanese court, let alone Torinago.

[00:35:28] It's almost a soldier's response, whereas the priests are the diplomats, where he's

[00:35:35] like, you know, I work for the crown, not the church that we have earlier on.

[00:35:41] I'm leaving, otherwise we lose the wind, and I've got however much in the worth of

[00:35:48] trades in the holds of my ship.

[00:35:53] ALICE Because remember, we talked about it last

[00:35:54] week that Turinaga had already put a block on the Black Ship, and Turinaga expected that

[00:36:00] to be respected. That's what happens. If he chooses a boat doesn't leave the harbour,

[00:36:04] the boat doesn't leave the harbour, but this captain is not willing to take that at

[00:36:09] all. And when Torinaga offers that as his way of safe passage, he says, well, your ship

[00:36:13] can leave. He goes, no, well, my ship was always going to leave anyway. I want more

[00:36:17] than that. So, so he does make a trade with both the captain and also with the priests.

[00:36:23] He offers the priests the ability to build

[00:36:25] a church within his homeland. It's their first opportunity in Egypt.

[00:36:31] ALICE And also to, you know, he appeals, I guess,

[00:36:36] to the trader in the captain, where it's, I want 10,000 worth of investment in the silk trade, and you can have half the profit.

[00:36:46] Exactly.

[00:36:47] And so he's, you know, what I like about Toronaga is he absolutely has a goal, he has an aim,

[00:36:57] but the means to that is totally fluid. And when told he must leave the sailor, the pilot, John Blackthorne, he says,

[00:37:08] okay then, you know, I'm sorry, you're having to be left here. And I kind of really enjoy this

[00:37:18] deal. And it's not, even the church in Edo is so that the priests can turn Ono and Kiyama against

[00:37:30] the Shido.

[00:37:31] Like, it's the power play within the Council of Regents.

[00:37:36] It's his own wealth.

[00:37:38] It's effectively buying the church as well with the promise of the church in Edo.

[00:37:48] And I kind of like the response of the priest in that it seems like the chief

[00:37:53] priest is like, well we can't do that, you know, that's corrupt and so on.

[00:37:59] Yes, boss.

[00:38:00] Boss.

[00:38:01] Well, if we pray on it, you know, like it will just happen.

[00:38:05] But that's because you know it's going to happen because you've made a deal.

[00:38:08] Exactly.

[00:38:08] It's kind of like that fluffy, no, we're not corrupt. But if we pray on it and the Lord's

[00:38:14] guidance tells us to do it, you know, let's reflect on it. Let us convince ourselves that

[00:38:21] it's the right course of action. And it feels like

[00:38:26] a real sort of, you know, a missionary's purpose to convert, to bring the locals to the church.

[00:38:35] ALICE I could kind of see that, but I also see echoes

[00:38:38] of what we talked about earlier on with Yabbushikah. This is another group of very powerful people

[00:38:43] who need to navigate some quite dangerous

[00:38:45] waters here.

[00:38:46] You know, you would get that if they really underlined it to the members of the regions

[00:38:55] council that were allied to them, if they underlined it that they didn't want them

[00:39:01] to go after Turinaga, that they could lose their heads.

[00:39:05] So they need to balance their tactics and maintain their power.

[00:39:09] ALICE Absolutely.

[00:39:10] Yeah, I mean, even their dealings with the captain, it's like, you know, he's kind of

[00:39:13] going all, like, I'm going to go against Turinaga, I'm just going to leave the port

[00:39:18] anyway.

[00:39:19] And it's like, you know, they're trying to persuade even him.

[00:39:22] We are here with their permission, with their grace.

[00:39:28] If we upset them, if we seem to be disrespectful, that grace could be withdrawn.

[00:39:35] And we're goners.

[00:39:39] And so they're diplomatic treading of these, yeah, tough waters, like you're

[00:39:47] saying.

[00:39:48] Yeah.

[00:39:49] Yeah.

[00:39:50] But ultimately, I like the fact that despite John being kind of left high and dry, he decides

[00:39:54] to leave being high and dry with a good, you know, F this.

[00:39:59] I'm not staying here. here and uses the black ship as cover for the Japanese galley that he takes to escape

[00:40:10] the Osaka and to run the blockade of Kiyama's men in the harbour.

[00:40:17] ALICE It was John that noticed that, he's the one

[00:40:20] that kind of went, hang on a second, there's loads of very small ships out there.

[00:40:23] Do people around here fish it?

[00:40:24] Nice. No, they don't. Okay. So again, that was of went hang in a second. There's loads of very small ships out there. Do people around here fish it? Nice.

[00:40:25] No, they don't.

[00:40:26] Okay.

[00:40:27] So again, that was just a little nod from John.

[00:40:28] He's not saving everybody, but it is by things that he would notice that he's kind of giving

[00:40:33] them enough information to start their own plans, I suppose.

[00:40:36] But yeah, I love that.

[00:40:38] And again, you know, that echo of Bontaro and what he did to sacrifice himself to save

[00:40:44] his Lord. Yeah. That's not John Blackthorne. He what he did to sacrifice himself to save his lord. That's not John

[00:40:46] Blackthorn. He's not willing to sacrifice himself. He's going to be in the hands of

[00:40:50] Ashido if that happens, right? If he's left behind and stays there, he's going to be in

[00:40:54] the hands of Ashido. He's going to die, most likely, right? So he's going, not a chance,

[00:40:58] I'm going to try everything I get out of here. And once again, I love the banter between John and Rodriguez,

[00:41:05] who've just reunited here, kind of, as John's on one ship and Rodriguez on the other going,

[00:41:10] my God, that bastard's still alive. How is he making it out of here alive? And kind of

[00:41:16] giving it a good go, you know, between the two of them, he doesn't believe that John's

[00:41:20] going to survive very much longer, but he'll give him a little handout, a very small handout.

[00:41:24] John was good enough to be able to get himself almost around

[00:41:28] the coastline.

[00:41:29] It's the debt repaid.

[00:41:30] Exactly.

[00:41:31] He says, you know, like it's all high stakes, because effectively Rodriguez is being told

[00:41:37] by the captain to crash the Japanese ship onto the rocks, You force it onto the rocks. And Rodriguez just allows

[00:41:45] enough space for that ship that John is piloting to sort of creep in front and to get around

[00:41:55] the black ship. And as he whispers, that's my debt repaid for having rescued me. You're saving his life, yeah. And saving his life.

[00:42:05] So, you know, he doesn't crash him against the rocks like it's intended.

[00:42:09] So this was really good.

[00:42:11] And I hope Rodriguez pops up again somewhere.

[00:42:15] But I guess if they're on their way to Macau, unlikely for the next few episodes at least.

[00:42:22] Well, absolutely.

[00:42:23] Unless we see John Dela McKay.

[00:42:24] Well, yeah. At some point in the series. Well, absolutely, unless we see John Delameque. Well, yeah.

[00:42:25] At some point living the series.

[00:42:26] Yeah, that's true.

[00:42:27] You know, he has been such a good pirate of the show here in Estracabanel, just once again,

[00:42:33] just every time he's on screen, you know, even when he learns that John's still alive

[00:42:36] when the captain goes in and talks to the priest.

[00:42:40] He's kind of in awe of the fact that this man who is so brutish and so arrogant and

[00:42:44] doesn't understand the ways of the Japanese, how he could still be alive after this time.

[00:42:48] And he's probably right, and this is pretty early on in the story already. So really good,

[00:42:53] yeah, really liked this moment and just really well filmed as well, this battle on the ocean,

[00:42:59] or this escape on the ocean, I guess, really good stuff. Let's go on to Bushido number four.

[00:43:05] ALICE Yes, impeaching Toronaga, or not as the case

[00:43:10] may be. Because again, I think this is another arrow in the quiver of Toronaga, in terms

[00:43:15] of outmaneuvering his foes, in this case through pure bureaucracy and administration, in that he has whilst

[00:43:27] having tricked them with subterfuge to escape a sacker and then also rode his luck with

[00:43:36] deals with the devil effectively.

[00:43:40] Because I mean, this is the interesting thing, you know, Toronaga in the last episode found out

[00:43:45] that the people he's now making deals with are trying to carve up his home country.

[00:43:50] Well, exactly.

[00:43:51] You know, so he's kind of, as I say, he's hugely flexible and fluid in the means to

[00:43:59] the end.

[00:44:00] But I'd say what's hugely important to this character that he takes all of the information

[00:44:04] and doesn't make rash decisions about it say what's hugely important to this character that he takes all of the information and doesn't make rash decisions about it.

[00:44:06] It's really important to his character and that's the kind of advice that you were talking

[00:44:10] about earlier on that he gives to his son.

[00:44:11] That is exactly right.

[00:44:12] ALICE That is exactly right.

[00:44:14] ALICE Take all the information in.

[00:44:15] It may seem like the worst possible information you can have, but take it all in and make

[00:44:19] a decision on how you go.

[00:44:21] ALICE It's exactly that.

[00:44:23] And just to repeat what he says to his son, you are playing a game of friends and enemies

[00:44:29] when in this life you only have yourself.

[00:44:32] So in one sense, the Portuguese are his enemies, but he's not playing them as simply that or

[00:44:40] as friends. It's his life, his goals, what he wants to do, and they will serve their

[00:44:49] purpose. And similarly, he's left his right-hand man in Hiramatsu back at his quarters in Osaka,

[00:44:59] having tricked all the regents and escaped from Osaka, he asks his right-hand man to face all those

[00:45:09] lords of the council in order to give them this letter of resignation, which means that

[00:45:19] the council has one vote less now that is required for a vote to actually take place on this

[00:45:27] council. So, you know, he's just using these rules against them.

[00:45:31] Absolutely. And importantly, they would need five votes to impeach him and they don't have

[00:45:37] five votes. So traditionally, the way it would work is he votes obviously not to impeach and

[00:45:42] the other four vote to impeach. That's fine, but they need five votes to carry in past judgments. So he's effectively gotten

[00:45:49] himself out of it by-

[00:45:50] Yeah. So they need a new regent to be appointed to the council, which I guess has its own

[00:45:57] flourish of process and so on. So I really, really enjoy this.

[00:46:03] I did think that's the option. Yeah, they do need to find somebody else to sit on the council. Yes, that's the only way around it.

[00:46:09] But can they? I don't really know, because the council has only been appointed for this

[00:46:13] purpose to effectively stand guard until the heir comes of age. So have they got an idea

[00:46:22] of how they get somebody else on the council? Is there a way to do that? If they don't have five votes to get somebody on the council, can

[00:46:28] they appoint somebody? So, has he just put them in a holding pattern for the moment?

[00:46:32] No, maybe. I mean, I would think that, you know, if someone's resigned, they would be

[00:46:38] able to... I mean, I don't know, but I think we saw in the last episode of Shido looking to recruit Yabushigi to be on the council.

[00:46:49] Oh, okay.

[00:46:50] Yeah.

[00:46:50] You know, we have Taranaga ask what was Shido's offer, and it was to replace him on the council,

[00:46:56] which he refused to do.

[00:46:58] You know, maybe those motions were already being done. I think that's to the point. It's just to delay for, it might

[00:47:07] only be half an hour or an hour where she goes, well, the Taiko is dead, has been dead

[00:47:13] long ago. If their aim is ultimately to make sure his doesn't get on the throne, do you

[00:47:21] know what I mean? It ultimately becomes a coup situation, but

[00:47:32] what are they going to do? What's the judge of their character? And you can see the frustration because it's now

[00:47:39] right, we've got to go through whatever process it is to make sure that we impeach him. It's been

[00:47:43] in effect delayed some more. Not indefinitely, but for enough time for events to continue

[00:47:51] to unfold for Toranaka.

[00:47:52] ALICE I get the feeling that the fact that he's still alive out there and resigned potentially

[00:47:59] gives another bit of pause there, because, you know, again, this is a structure that is built specifically by the former Taiko to preserve the government or preserve Japan until his heir comes along

[00:48:11] to take over. So effectively, because Torinaga has walked away, that may instill some dissatisfaction,

[00:48:20] let's say, in the people of Japan in this situation. So would they be on the side of Toronaga walking away from this situation? And would it start a civil war if the other

[00:48:30] four members of the council decide to do something that may not be in the wishes of the Taiko?

[00:48:35] So there's a whole piece of navigation that this group now need to do. And it feels like

[00:48:40] Ishido's just about gotten everybody else in this group on side almost.

[00:48:45] They're not in control because as we see at the beginning before Hiramatsu comes in, they're

[00:48:50] all fighting about the attack on Turanaga.

[00:48:53] The fact that there was an assassin that went in to try and kill John Blackthorn and almost

[00:48:58] killed Turanaga, that is completely disrespectful.

[00:49:02] They could have had Turanaga already sentenced, impeached and killed by now, but because of

[00:49:08] the attack, it's caused this great rift that caused him to give in his resignation.

[00:49:14] So now everything's become even more complicated.

[00:49:16] Exactly.

[00:49:17] Everything.

[00:49:18] I've gave him enough information, enough to act, to understand that the Christian regents on the council were after the Anjan.

[00:49:29] We had information that was important to him. I think that's, he's fluid enough to adapt his

[00:49:39] plans and I think that's what's so, so good about him.

[00:49:46] Absolutely.

[00:49:47] So yeah, that'll be very interesting to see how the machinations play out for the next

[00:49:52] couple of episodes in Osaka, because it does feel like they have their own decisions to

[00:49:56] make now with that resignation decision from Tom Lager.

[00:50:00] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:50:01] Shall we get on to Bushido number five?

[00:50:04] Yes.

[00:50:05] Yes. From Anjin to Hatamoto.

[00:50:08] John Blackthorne, does he travel? Yes.

[00:50:12] Yes, he does.

[00:50:13] Basically, I think, you know, Torinaga is quite impressed that his pilot,

[00:50:20] this Anjin, has made it out of Osaka when everything was against him doing that. So,

[00:50:30] he in a sense gets promoted here, but for a reason, for a good reason. He's named

[00:50:37] Hatamoto. It's a great honour, but it's so that John Blackthorn can train a regiment, and they'll be overseen by

[00:50:47] Yabushigi in foreign tactics.

[00:50:51] And I thought that was really, really interesting to see this, you know.

[00:50:55] ALICE Yeah, and importantly, Taranaga's leaving his

[00:50:57] son behind with John Blackthorn to train this new army.

[00:51:02] That's where the discussion that you've been talking about between father

[00:51:06] and son about playing game of friends and enemies, that's where the discussion came

[00:51:11] from. But yes, it seems like Jahl is starting to kind of go up the ranks. I had to look

[00:51:16] up what Hashimoto meant. Hashimoto literally means those who stand under the flag, but

[00:51:22] the European equivalent of the English equivalent would be a banner man for Toranaga. So effectively he's agreed to become someone very important

[00:51:29] to Toranaga.

[00:51:30] I mean, it holds the banners of the house, you know, and because I mean always with war

[00:51:37] it was that, you know, they would be taken as a prize, you know, and the banners of other armies and so on.

[00:51:45] So yeah, very important.

[00:51:47] It's defending the honor by holding this and making sure it doesn't go into the hands

[00:51:53] of their enemies.

[00:51:54] So yeah, really interesting to see that he has been given this title and honor.

[00:52:01] I think the other thing that we get here is, talking about the Blackthorn

[00:52:07] when he was asking Mariko about her husband, and we got some information about his own

[00:52:14] that he has two children and so on. But we have just before this honour where Mariko is kind of asking John Blackthorn about his family. She's being inquisitive

[00:52:29] about him and he says, it was kind of a lie. She will only be two years. I've been away from

[00:52:37] England for two years. My aim was for the horizon more than the deep, he says, and it was freedom more than the horizon that

[00:52:45] this endeavour gave me. It was freedom. It was like, you know, he was this adventurer,

[00:52:51] this explorer, and that was what it was always about. So he hasn't actually ever met his

[00:52:57] daughter Elizabeth, who he has fathered, despite having said that previously, to Mariko.

[00:53:06] ALICE Yeah, exactly.

[00:53:08] But he has an opportunist, he will take the opportunity, even though, as he says himself,

[00:53:11] he doesn't really know much about tactics.

[00:53:13] He's a pilot, right?

[00:53:14] So he doesn't really know much about tactics, but he'll take the job, because it keeps him

[00:53:17] alive for a bit longer.

[00:53:18] Keeps him alive.

[00:53:19] Keeps him in the good graces of Turinaga as well.

[00:53:20] And he believes he's made a deal where he will get his shit and his men back as well. And he believes he's made a deal where he will get his shit and his men back

[00:53:27] as well.

[00:53:28] Yes, but importantly, Torinaga does show John that he has the journals, has the orders

[00:53:35] that he had been given by the Portuguese that could condemn John to death. But he's saying

[00:53:41] yeah, but he's saying it'll take a long time to translate, probably about

[00:53:45] as long as it will take to train an army for me.

[00:53:48] So I like that.

[00:53:49] That's a nice little extra bit of pressure from Terunaga.

[00:53:54] But John is going to take on the job as now Hasimoto.

[00:53:57] Absolutely.

[00:53:58] Yeah, good stuff.

[00:54:00] I think that brings us to an end to this episode.

[00:54:04] Are there any notes that you have at all, Derek?

[00:54:07] Just the only other thing is just the diving session at the end of the episode between

[00:54:10] Torinaga and John.

[00:54:12] It's after he's named him, the banner manor named him as Hatemos Hill, but it seems like

[00:54:18] there's a growing respect almost between the two of them.

[00:54:21] He's seen something in John that he wants to learn.

[00:54:24] And I just thought it was interesting that we had quite a bit of the episode dedicated

[00:54:28] to that towards the end. You know, there's five or six minutes of John diving into the

[00:54:31] sea, coming back up.

[00:54:33] And again.

[00:54:34] And again, and again. And then even at that point, Mariko, who generally wouldn't speak

[00:54:39] her mind to Torinage, certainly wouldn't go against his orders, kind of saying, you give

[00:54:43] John another day, but you learn again from Toranaga. He's a very determined person. He will learn

[00:54:49] how to dive today, one more dive, and then he'll take a go, and then they race to shore

[00:54:54] effectively. So I just liked that moment because again, you're having more character development

[00:55:01] between the two of them. It's not all about war. It's not all about machinations. It's

[00:55:04] also a bit about who they are as people as well.

[00:55:07] Yes, exactly.

[00:55:08] And how they're starting to connect in that way as well. So I thought that was a really

[00:55:11] good scene. Any other notes? Any other points from yourself, John?

[00:55:14] No, none from me. I think just in terms of the episode for me, I would give this four

[00:55:20] and a half high dives out of five. I think in essence a real simple story of

[00:55:27] escape, but a lot of relationship building happening here, a lot of trust, a lot of respect,

[00:55:35] both ways happening here, but still within this bubble of a lot of the members of Toronago's

[00:55:51] of a lot of the members of Toronago's company seeing John Blackthorn as a barbarian still. But I think Toronago seeing some qualities that can be useful to him. And I ultimately,

[00:55:58] is that not what a great leader does? Is able to identify those people who have qualities that in the service

[00:56:08] of whatever cause it is, is beneficial and gets results in some way.

[00:56:16] And I think he sees that here, this tenacity, this survival instinct.

[00:56:22] Absolutely.

[00:56:23] And I think the predicament that we know of Torinago is one that he needs to survive as well.

[00:56:29] So having all those survivors with him is a useful mindset given what is probably to come.

[00:56:38] We're there to do it.

[00:56:39] We're there to do it.

[00:56:39] So yeah, four and a half high dives out of five for me.

[00:56:43] Great stuff.

[00:56:44] Yeah, I really enjoyed the episode as well.

[00:56:46] So let's move on to some feedback.

[00:56:49] So it's over to me, Derek, for the feedback.

[00:56:51] I'm all alone.

[00:56:52] John's gone away for a couple of weeks.

[00:56:53] So I'll be here with your feedback each week on Shogun.

[00:56:56] We'd love to hear your thoughts about each of the episodes.

[00:56:58] Please keep emailing us into feedback at TV Podcast Industries.com or pop on over to our

[00:57:03] Facebook group at Facebook.com slash groups slash

[00:57:06] tv podcast industries. There's a spoiler post up there for each episode of Shogun as it comes out.

[00:57:12] Love to hear your thoughts to keep you company while John's got away. The feedback overall has

[00:57:16] been fantastic since the show came out. I think it was at 100% Rotten Tomatoes score at the moment

[00:57:22] of the review aggregator. So it seems to be going down very well with critics, but I'm also seeing lots and lots of feedback from people

[00:57:28] watching us, saying they're really, really enjoying the show, just like myself and John

[00:57:32] are. But we have some feedback directly from our fellow Warriors. First up, an email in

[00:57:36] from the wonderful Jimbo, orin, great to hear from you again, Jimbo. Jimbo says, hi guys.

[00:57:41] Firstly, congratulations on the 10 year anniversary. Wow Wow that makes me feel old too. As an old Gothamite it makes me feel even better

[00:57:49] that I managed to watch the first episode of Shogun last night so I can

[00:57:53] get back in touch to share my thoughts. I'm ashamed to admit that I owned the

[00:57:56] 80s show on DVD but never actually got around to watching it. Hopefully not a

[00:58:00] cause for Seppuku. Although I did read my dad's old copy of the book a long time ago and remember absolutely loving it, but also that it was hugely detailed and

[00:58:09] complex so I could only recall odd moments. Having seen the trailer I had high hopes for

[00:58:14] the series and so far they have been absolutely blown away. I would actually go as far as

[00:58:19] to saying this is the most impressive opening episodes of any TV show I can remember, particularly

[00:58:24] the cinematography which was absolutely stunning, rivalivalling epics like Lord of the Rings. The

[00:58:29] arrival to Osaka Castle was unbelievably filmed and made me wish I was watching this on a

[00:58:33] cinema screen with so much attention to detail and immaculate scene framing, even in shots

[00:58:38] lasting just a few seconds. The sound too was incredible and I can't wait to get further

[00:58:43] into the story to see how they deal with things like big battle scenes. As for the story, I remember

[00:58:49] it takes a while to get into the politics and so on, but based on this episode, they

[00:58:53] will take their time to build up properly as well as not shy away from some of the tougher

[00:58:57] scenes from the book either. I am also really glad they have characters actually speaking

[00:59:02] Japanese with subtitles, firstly to get away from everyone just speaking English, possibly with an awkward accent, but even

[00:59:08] more as it lets the show keep a bit more of its mystery. I really hope they can continue

[00:59:12] this level for the future episodes and looking forward to watching along with you all again,

[00:59:16] Jimbo. Ah great to hear from you Jimbo. I want to say a huge thank you to you and to

[00:59:20] everybody who's shared their thoughts about our 10th anniversary which just happened in

[00:59:24] the last couple of weeks.

[00:59:25] It's been really nice reconnecting

[00:59:27] with lots of our wonderful listeners

[00:59:29] who've been listening to us over those 10 years

[00:59:31] or joined us in the last year or joined us just for Shogun.

[00:59:33] It's been really nice hearing your thoughts

[00:59:35] and congratulations to us on our 10th anniversary.

[00:59:37] We're so delighted that we're covering Shogun

[00:59:39] as our 10th anniversary show.

[00:59:41] It's been really good so far.

[00:59:43] Lots and lots of great behind

[00:59:45] the scenes information out there, which kind of goes to some of the points you're making

[00:59:48] here, Jimbo. Things like the approach to the show that they wanted it to be in Japanese,

[00:59:54] wanted to make sure it was completely authentic to the Japanese experience much more than

[00:59:59] they could possibly have done in the past. And part of that comes to the subtitles. They

[01:00:03] created the show, knew the subtitles were going to be really important for the audience. They even framed the shots

[01:00:09] when they were filming, knowing that there was going to be subtitles on screen. So they made

[01:00:13] sure that how they'd framed the shots made the best use of the subtitles. That's fascinating to

[01:00:18] me. We may not be fascinating to everybody, but I found that fascinating. But you may notice when

[01:00:21] you're watching the subtitles on this show versus other shows, they're a bit closer to the middle of the screen and that was again

[01:00:27] another decision that they made to make sure that the audience could be involved in the

[01:00:31] show. You're not looking away to read the bottom line of the screen reading your subtitles.

[01:00:37] They're trying to make sure that you're able to take everything in, all the detail on screen,

[01:00:40] while also being able to read the extensive subtitles. Also on the writing,

[01:00:45] wow, this is a great story that the showrunners were talking about where they wrote the original

[01:00:50] script, then sent it off to be translated. Then it was translated into more dialect from

[01:00:55] the 1600s. A scriptwriter looked at that and reworked it. Then it was translated back to

[01:01:00] English to make sure that the original showrunners were able to make

[01:01:05] any adjustments that they felt they needed to, to keep the drama in each of the situations

[01:01:09] and then it was translated back into Japanese again for the actors to be able to interpret

[01:01:14] it on screen as well. And then they all worked together to adjust any lines that they felt

[01:01:19] would be out of place for the time. It's something like seven translations for the script for

[01:01:23] the show, which is incredible to think how much was put into this, but really shows on screen that attention

[01:01:28] to detail, even just at the script stuff. I already talked about the detail behind the scenes and the

[01:01:33] costuming and setups, the sets, everything is really, really detailed. This is a one-off from

[01:01:40] my understanding. This is going to be the story of the Shogun book in one season

[01:01:45] of the show so they are going to pour everything they can into us which is great to see and we are

[01:01:50] loving it so far. I'm really glad you are too Jimbo. We also have some Facebook feedback. First up,

[01:01:55] we got some thoughts in from Jamie Lawton who says, I also remember the 80s show with Richard

[01:02:00] Chamberlain living in Hong Kong at the time. I remember the books being almost required reading, especially Tai Pan and Noble House. I recently watched Noble House with

[01:02:09] Pierce Brosnan and the showrunners I believe were the same as the original Shogun TV series

[01:02:14] as well as same visuals, also few of the European actors showed up as well. I think Cosmo Jarvis

[01:02:19] is fantastic as Blackthorn and a shout out to Batman Well as Rodriguez. The show, even

[01:02:24] though a reboot,

[01:02:25] holds the interest of fans that they tell the story slightly differently and use different

[01:02:29] subplots from the book effectively to bring a fresh new aspect to the storytelling.

[01:02:34] Wow, that's fascinating Jamie. I actually never knew they did an adaptation of Noble

[01:02:38] House with Pierce Brosnan. That's interesting. I might have to seek that out once we're

[01:02:42] finished watching Shogun. And maybe that's an opportunity for the showrunners of this show maybe

[01:02:46] they'll move on and adapt another one of James Clavell's series of books after

[01:02:51] they finish completing Shogun. Batman Well as Rodriguez, for those of you

[01:02:56] unaware the actor that plays Rodriguez in the show, Nestor Cabernet, played

[01:03:01] Batman Well in The Tick. I probably know him much better for his work on Lost because he was always good on Lost, but I did see every episode

[01:03:09] of The Tick too, so it's great to see him out there. Thanks for reminding me of that

[01:03:12] one, Jimmy.

[01:03:13] Also over on Facebook, we had some feedback in from Adam Shimshak who says,

[01:03:17] I spent my entire life not knowing being boiled alive like a lobster was an option of ways

[01:03:22] to die, but it may have raced to the top of the nope, I don't want to die like that, list. Totally agree with you, Adam.

[01:03:30] It's a brutal scene and it's amazing with so much going on in the episode. I don't think

[01:03:33] we underlined as much how horrific that scene is, but it is. They certainly aren't avoiding

[01:03:39] doing those devastating things in the show to tone it down in any way. They're focusing

[01:03:45] on them as well. But yeah, really, really tough scene to watch.

[01:03:50] Also, Filipe Florencio gives his thoughts. He says, I am halfway through watching the

[01:03:54] first episode and I'm massively disappointed that when they speak Portuguese, it's actually

[01:03:58] in English. If everyone needs to read the subtitles from the Japanese, why haven't they

[01:04:02] committed to Portuguese as well? It's like Scorsese's Silence all over again. But getting over this language

[01:04:08] barrier, I really enjoyed the episode. I look forward to the rest of the season.

[01:04:12] Thanks for your thoughts, Philippe. Again, listening to the showrunners and some of the

[01:04:16] behind the scenes and on the official podcast, this was a choice they made. They actually

[01:04:20] referenced Scriss a US production there. So they came up with this idea of Cosmo Jarvis as a British actor

[01:04:46] playing the role through English. But when he's speaking in English, he's actually speaking

[01:04:50] Portuguese. And interestingly, they also pointed out that when he's aboard ship with all of

[01:04:55] the crewmen, they're all Dutch. So he's actually when he's speaking in English there, he's

[01:05:00] also speaking Dutch there. So he's speaking two languages through English. Pretty much

[01:05:06] they say it's because there would be no other opportunities for him to speak English because

[01:05:09] he's the only Englishman there, right? So that was the choice that they made. So they

[01:05:13] had their introductory character who's introducing the audience to Japan at the time, is speaking

[01:05:18] in English, and everybody else is speaking in Japanese for the most part. So that was

[01:05:23] their decision that they made. And I guess if that comes from them making the show through a US production company. But

[01:05:29] hopefully as you say if you're able to get over that language barrier you'll enjoy the

[01:05:33] rest of the season as much as you enjoyed that first episode.

[01:05:36] Also over on Facebook we got some feedback in from Dr. Bob Phillips who says,

[01:05:40] Scurvy, suicide, religious pillaging, slaughter of the innocents, lobster bats,

[01:05:45] showering in effluent, voyeurs, high politics and pigeons. Can't say they skint on anything in

[01:05:51] episode one and crikey. What amazing scenery. Totally agree with you Dr. Bob, it's just

[01:05:56] beautiful. Absolutely amazing to watch. Even as I say, there are some really brutal moments

[01:06:01] in the episode as well, but it is amazingly shot scenery. Amazing

[01:06:05] to think it was filmed in British Columbia as well in Canada, rather than being filmed

[01:06:09] in Japan just because of Covid at the time. They couldn't move the production over to

[01:06:14] Japan, so decided to film it in Canada. So amazing that they've been able to pick up

[01:06:18] the scenery and make it look like 16th century Japan.

[01:06:21] Thanks, Dr. Bob. Also on Facebook, we got some feedback in from Victor Von Doom who says,

[01:06:25] I really enjoy this story and the historical aspects of the time.

[01:06:29] The political intrigue is menacing.

[01:06:31] There are so many agendas cast against truths here.

[01:06:34] I look forward to Lord Turlaga getting his feet under him and exposing the council, Portuguese

[01:06:39] and the church.

[01:06:41] I find this version of the story so much more intense than the original. Thanks Victor, I really have been meaning to go and seek out the original and re-watch it.

[01:06:48] I watched a few clips a couple of weeks ago on YouTube just to kind of get a sense of how they

[01:06:52] were treating the characters in the show, but it's something that I think I'll go and watch in the

[01:06:59] future, but I'm really liking this version of it. This is a really contemporary version of a show of patience, 1600s Japan, of course, but it's great that they're able to have that

[01:07:10] view and have that accuracy of the experience of Japan on screen now with a huge budget

[01:07:17] behind it. It's great to see. As you say, the political intrigue in the show is one

[01:07:22] of the things that's most exciting and interesting to watch.

[01:07:25] So watch out for the next couple of weeks.

[01:07:27] It gets really, really intense.

[01:07:29] Thanks for that, Victor.

[01:07:31] Finally we have some feedback in just on episode two from Jamie Lawton who says, I find it

[01:07:36] interesting that they swapped Rodriguez from Portuguese to Spanish working for the Portuguese

[01:07:41] when originally in the book he was Portuguese working for the Spanish.

[01:07:44] That's interesting Jamie, having not read the book, I wouldn't have known that. But

[01:07:48] it's a really interesting idea that it was very different in the book. Here he also feels

[01:07:53] like an outsider. So he feels almost like someone that can be a confidant to John Blackthorne.

[01:07:59] But also they have a very uneasy alliance as you see in three episodes so far where we've seen

[01:08:06] them deal with each other. So they're really, really good on screen together and have and swap

[01:08:10] their barbs against each other really, really well. But I wonder what would have made it a bit more

[01:08:14] complicated if you introduced Spanish and Portuguese as two main groups here. We seem to be much more

[01:08:20] focused on the Portuguese in the show itself. But very interesting thoughts.

[01:08:29] Hopefully we'll get more of that from you as the season goes on as well. We'd love to hear the thoughts of anybody who's reading the books. Please send in the feedback that you have to

[01:08:33] feedback at TV Podcast Industries dot com. And anybody else, if you want to send any other

[01:08:38] feedback to keep me company while John's away for the next couple of weeks, you can also use that

[01:08:42] email address feedback at TV Podcast Industries dot com, of course, or you can pop on over to our Facebook group at Facebook

[01:08:47] dot com slash groups slash TV podcast industries, where there's a spoiler post up for Shogun

[01:08:53] every week. I'll send you back over to John and myself to say goodbye for this episode

[01:08:58] of Shogun chapter three. We'll be back next Wednesday with our chat all about Shogun chapter

[01:09:03] four, the Eightfold Fence. You can also head on over to patreon.com forward slash TV podcast industries or buy me a coffee

[01:09:28] dot com forward slash TV PI or head on over to our website where you can subscribe, rate us,

[01:09:35] leave a review of the podcast over on any good podcast catcher of your choice. Uh, but until chapter four, keep watching and keep listening.

[01:09:49] Bye.

[01:09:50] Bye. Thank you.