Shogun Chapter 8 Podcast

[00:00:00] This is the Shogun Podcast on TV Podcast Industries and we're talking about Shogun Chapter

[00:00:04] 8, The Abyss of Life. I must say I am impressed. You have made your own way out here.

[00:00:13] Thank you for all now. Goi-oi wa, asunisite kudusabe.

[00:00:19] Except I seem to find Catholics in a big sort of corner of this country, like the Kakarouch.

[00:00:25] It was not you I came to Edo for. I have urgent business with Toranaga-sama.

[00:00:31] Strange that you are living out here. Typically a Hatamoto is given residence within the confines of his Lord's castle.

[00:00:40] What are your plans? Now he has cut you loose.

[00:00:45] Well, to start, I will reunite with my crew. Get back aboard my vessel.

[00:00:51] Then pay a visit to that black ship I have heard so much about.

[00:00:55] Welcome back fellow warriors to the Shogun Podcast on TV Podcast Industries. We are discussing

[00:01:23] all things around Shogun Chapter 8, The Abyss of Life. I am one of your hosts John.

[00:01:29] I'm your host Derek. Go back. Yes. What a title. Love it. What about the Abyss of Life?

[00:01:35] Yeah, absolutely. I think really good. When this whole thing starts, you kind of see how much toll

[00:01:42] the death of Nagakado has taken on everybody really. Yeah. Stars. So yeah, it gets worse

[00:01:49] from there really for the episode, doesn't it? Yeah. Oh, absolutely. This to me was just an amazing

[00:01:58] amazing episode. Absolutely loved it. Shocking, sort of manipulating. It's just really,

[00:02:08] really good. So nice. Weirdly a great little bit of humor at least for me. I've got one point

[00:02:16] to do with the quarters and the church. Of course, yes, it's a great one. Great.

[00:02:20] Really good. But I think before we get into our spoiler-filled discussion around Chapter 8

[00:02:29] of Shogun, first a quick reminder to join us over at tvpodcastindustries.com where you can

[00:02:36] subscribe to any good or evil podcast catcher of your choice. You can send in your thoughts,

[00:02:43] theories, observations, comments about all things Shogun, the two feedback at tvpodcastindustries.com

[00:02:51] or join us over on our Facebook group at facebook.com. Always slash groups,

[00:02:57] forward slash TV podcast industries where you can leave your thoughts, theories and comments on

[00:03:03] our spoiler-filled posts. Absolutely. If you haven't read the book, I want to know,

[00:03:07] did you expect all the twists and turns that are happening? It's the right show in the season because

[00:03:12] I certainly didn't. There's lots of things that are happening that I'm going. I would never have

[00:03:15] written that, never worth thoughts. This is the way it's going to go. So I'm excited to hear

[00:03:19] your thoughts with that. Great to hear them before the end of the season. Only two more episodes

[00:03:23] to go after this one. So how is it going to work out? Absolutely. It seems as though

[00:03:29] things are probably falling into place for Toronaga. But at great cost.

[00:03:36] Absolutely. Absolutely. But up first, fellow warriors, we just want to give a quick call out for

[00:03:42] a review from James Jazzy over on Apple Podcasts. They say, favorite Shogun podcast. James Jazzy

[00:03:50] says, I've listened to almost all the Shogun podcasts and this one is my favorite along with

[00:03:55] the official podcast from the show. The summary and analysis is concise and insightful. The hosts

[00:04:01] are smart, articulate and have a pleasant manner. Keep up the good work. Excellent. Thank you so

[00:04:08] much James Jazzy for that review. Love for the review. Getting in the reviews just help

[00:04:14] for people to find us and also to spread the word of the podcast because as we always say,

[00:04:21] sharing the podcast is of course sharing the love. Yes it is absolutely. Thanks so much James.

[00:04:26] It's really good to be excited to share your thoughts on the podcast. And I just want to say

[00:04:30] this great to leave a review for us over there. If anybody has wants to leave for us to review,

[00:04:34] please do so you can find the Shogun on TV Podcast Industries podcast on any of your favorite feeds

[00:04:39] or leave a review of course on the TV Podcast Industries main feed where we're also covering

[00:04:43] invincible and Star Wars The Bad Batch weekly at the moment just finished invincible this week.

[00:04:49] But still got a bit more to go with Star Wars The Bad Batch and of course,

[00:04:52] Shogun to cut more weeks to go with that as well. So I'm love to have you join us over there as well.

[00:04:56] Yes absolutely. But with that Derek, please tell us who gave us what when,

[00:05:02] where how and why well the show of course is based on James LaVille's 1975 novel of the same name Shogun

[00:05:10] the headwriters of the show are Rachel Kondo and Justin Marx this episode was written by Shannon

[00:05:14] Goss who also wrote episode three and this episode was directed by Emmanuel Ocelco for

[00:05:20] who also directed an episode of Mike Flanagan midnight club and will direct an episode of the

[00:05:25] fifth and final season of Star Trek Discovery which comes out which came out last week the first

[00:05:29] couple episodes came out last week so that's kind of cool having yeah I would still

[00:05:33] yeah I have a Shogun on one channel and having Star Trek Discovery something completely far

[00:05:38] distant in the future out of the other channel. Hickool is that.

[00:05:40] Yeah and having Mike Flanagan's midnight club of course homage to the breakfast club

[00:05:45] kind of kind of yes yeah I absolutely love the midnight club it's great but I also like

[00:05:52] most of Mike Flanagan's stuff yeah pretty much everything it was the only show that was intended

[00:05:56] to have two seasons and of course as these things happen when you intend to have two seasons

[00:06:00] is something they don't confer before second season so exactly so but it was very good though

[00:06:06] so those are the writers and director John do you want to tell us what they gave us with your

[00:06:10] synopsis for this episode of Shogun chapter eight the episode of Life. Sure.

[00:06:16] Toron Argers defeated clan Mooster Edo to mourn the death of his son for the traditional 49 days

[00:06:23] as Toron Arger and his trusted generals await their fate John Blackthorn must decide who he fights for

[00:06:29] the Lord who has turned his back on him all the ambition that brought into Japan in the first place

[00:06:36] very good very good and does he make his decision at the end or has he also been manipulated by

[00:06:42] Lord Toron Arger I think everyone has been manipulated by Lord Toron Arger by the looks of it

[00:06:48] potentially potentially or maybe I just miss frames that question maybe Lord Toron Arger is

[00:06:54] just someone that really knows people and what way they are going to act when put into a circumstance

[00:06:59] or a situation. Well that's it I think it's a bit Colony a bit Colony B because yeah he gets

[00:07:05] Maricot to go and travel with it as it is John Blackthorn to Osaka and of course with the Abishigae

[00:07:11] as well but I think it is Colony Colony B he absolutely has strategy and tactics but he is also

[00:07:20] a huge opportunist and uses events to his advantage but knows the long game and the past and

[00:07:29] the connection so just a good or rounder think you would say yeah definitely. But let us get into our

[00:07:39] top baschitos for this episode. Machito number one 49 days of morning in Edo. Yeah this is the

[00:07:48] aftermath of course of the death of Nagakaro the son of Tarnaga as they bring his body to their

[00:07:55] hometown of Edo and I think I kind of missed it when I was watching the episode the first time but

[00:08:02] it's his half-brothers army that are waiting on the borders of Edo for Tarnaga and his own army

[00:08:10] is own people to mourn the loss of his son so they stop at the borders this is what Maricot explains

[00:08:16] to John Blackthorn just before they cross into the city and everybody's dealing with the

[00:08:21] morning in a different way. Tarnaga we hear him coughing and unsplushering as he's coming into

[00:08:27] into Edo and then he disappears from slice. We see some very different reactions from some of his

[00:08:33] vassals some of them even though they're in mourning for Tarnaga's son are wearing their armor

[00:08:39] as a form of protest for the fact that Tarnaga is now going to give himself up to

[00:08:44] and to Shido they do not like that decision exactly and so but we also see that while

[00:08:52] Tarnaga has gone back to Edo to mourn he doesn't make his own son's cremation

[00:08:59] but seemingly because of the onset of this cough that he has picked up from the ride

[00:09:04] but I think what frames this really nicely is that the brief return to Asaka were we hear

[00:09:11] that the word of Tarnaga surrender has reached and Shido and Lady Achiba

[00:09:17] and because in a sense as Shido is kind of smirking happy it's almost like okay there's the

[00:09:26] fate of complete that's it's going to be that bloodless. He's so kind of as Richter there.

[00:09:30] Yeah whereas Lady Achiba is like until you know his face is pressed to the floor in sort of

[00:09:39] supplication to myself in surrender I don't trust it. Yes. And I think you know that is ultimately

[00:09:45] the setup for really how this progresses through and this episode with that final moment as well

[00:09:54] which we'll get to its own Peshido point. But you know it's just a really really good setup for

[00:10:02] this morning because you know in effect here there's extra time afforded to Tarnaga

[00:10:09] with this traditional 49 days of morning which has to be respected. Yeah it allows him to get back

[00:10:16] to his cease and base of power and Edo in a sense maybe you would think it's so they can do off

[00:10:24] you know regroup all this forces and an all out kind of frontal assault or some description.

[00:10:30] So it's really interesting how this goes but ultimately that this is all about the death

[00:10:37] of Nagakada as well you know with the cremation and the different morning that's happening.

[00:10:46] Exactly exactly it's interesting that you mentioned respect and you mentioned the idea

[00:10:51] that he could be gathering his forces here because while Tarnaga isn't really seen very much

[00:10:57] at the beginning of this episode we see a lot of his other vassals and I think there's a really

[00:11:03] really interesting scene as all the vassals are sitting around. It's almost like a wake that

[00:11:08] they're having for Nagakado and interestingly everybody is criticizing Nagakado even Hirematsu

[00:11:17] who's the closest to a member of family that Tarnaga has had and even he is saying he's a silly

[00:11:24] boy he's he he died exactly as he lived going into situations way too fast and it's only only

[00:11:30] who's a more recent friend of him who stands up and says he would love to have seen us here

[00:11:36] celebrating him he would love to have seen us here drinking to his memory and saying you know while

[00:11:42] he may have been rationed as actions at least he stood up for something that he believes in

[00:11:47] and while it may have ended badly at least he stood up for our country stood up for Japan so

[00:11:52] this is kind of so in the sea the rest of the vassals I'll take that on board as a lot of things

[00:11:57] that only says and they do take on board well he speaks a lot of sense yeah I know I I love this

[00:12:05] wake I mean I do think that they were the honoring Nagakado in their own way yeah just Tarnaga was

[00:12:12] absent from that as well that they talk about him being brave and that you know his his stories

[00:12:20] he loved listening to stories yes and his that his stories that would just continue and continue

[00:12:26] and as you say it is here inatsu it says but he was reckless in what he did and now we find ourselves

[00:12:31] in this predicament and that's the thing I really like on me here and standing up essentially

[00:12:38] for his friends yeah you know his his kind of ally in a sense you could almost see that if

[00:12:45] Nagakado had survived all this had inherited Tarnaga's uh fiefdom and so on then similarly it

[00:12:53] would be the partnership between them those two like with Tarnaga and yeah but you get in that sense

[00:13:01] you know I know what you mean but actually I think it would be even closer an even closer relationship

[00:13:05] between it might be closer to the way Tarnaga and Hiramatsu work together yeah no you're working

[00:13:10] together for yeah absolutely you know and like he he says as you say it gets all the um you know

[00:13:19] of Tarnaga's generals as well as Hiramatsu and Buntaro so there is prick up you know he said

[00:13:26] he's not here you know it's sad that his friend is dead um he would have as you say he would have

[00:13:32] loved us sharing these stories about him but he's not here because of his lord surrendering yes

[00:13:39] yeah and so it's immediately the onus is back on uh Tarnaga and you see the look as you say in the

[00:13:46] eyes and it is kind of taken on board here so it's really really interesting absolutely you know

[00:13:52] and also as they travel to um to the cremation of Nagakado uh there's the conversation between

[00:13:58] Hiramatsu and uh yeah but Shige who's kind of going we should get our forces together we should

[00:14:03] bring the cannons and guns um together and go and have our assault on Asaka have that crimson sky

[00:14:10] um that we talked about and I kind of like the twisted that here where a matter

[00:14:15] her a matter goes actually one of the conditions of our surrender is that you do bring the guns

[00:14:19] and cannons back to Asaka and as a gift to our new lord upon our surrender so yeah and he is also

[00:14:27] a condition of the surrender as she don't know that he effectively you know in a sense can't be

[00:14:35] trusted here yeah and all possibly is still on the cusp of being turned and because we certainly

[00:14:41] you know later on we see him um with John Blackthorn sort of pacing about what it is um he might do

[00:14:51] or what he might do with the time that he's got in Asaka away from uh the eyes of Tarnaga you know

[00:14:59] the many eyes of Tarnaga so yeah no I like that as well it's also the fact that in this moment

[00:15:07] of mourning you know in these discussions that uh they have with their lord who's still coughing looks

[00:15:16] much weaker um and uh you see Hiramatsu you have Mirako and you have uh Father Martin the Jesuit priest

[00:15:27] and you know he's trying to get a sense of what the talk is in Asaka again there's this end game here

[00:15:37] Tarnaga blatantly saying to Father Martin no you go back from here and you say exactly bit by bit

[00:15:44] what you have seen here um you know um and then you get your church in Edo you know I will give you

[00:15:52] that land as the reward for doing that if you do this one thing I should say for me because again

[00:16:00] I just feel Tarnaga the opportunistic bit is he he understands and learns that Father Martin is here

[00:16:08] on his own volition not being sent by um the head of the church in Japan yeah so you know he can see

[00:16:15] that agency there and wants to exploit it yeah so I love that and of course coming out of that

[00:16:21] Hiramatsu is like we are fighting you know there is a plan here yes he almost reinvigorates the

[00:16:28] generals again and for me and Yabashigeg as that you know this is part of a plan we are going to fight

[00:16:35] exactly because he's basically thinking there's no way the Tarnaga would be showing off his weakness

[00:16:40] to Asaka there must be a plan here show them that you're weak and then show them real strength

[00:16:44] yeah kind of thing there is a great moment in the conversation with Father Martin who generally

[00:16:50] speaks in Japanese to Tarnaga has been alleged in the past has worked with Mariko of course and

[00:16:55] has translated John Blackthorn in the past um here he's told because the church is not an ally to

[00:17:02] Tarnaga he's not even alleged used their Japanese language anymore he must speak in English and

[00:17:07] allow Mariko to translate so that his words aren't hidden at all I thought that was really

[00:17:13] a really good line being drawn in the sand between the church and Tarnaga's version of Japan

[00:17:21] well and it's interesting that you know with that discussion with Hiramatsu and Mariko

[00:17:29] is you know there's the discussion is around whether they can actually strangle Ashiba's

[00:17:36] ambition whether there is a way in you know a gap in lady Achibas defenses and that they can

[00:17:45] align with her in order to stifle and and and strangle Ashiba's ambition and power effectively so

[00:17:56] I kind of like that and ultimately it's kind of assumed that there is no way in here yeah because

[00:18:03] Mariko goes to me swiss lady rain who's who's just given birth to Tarnaga's grand daughter yeah

[00:18:09] and lady rain is the sister of Ashiba and Mariko is going to ask you know what's

[00:18:13] has your sister feel like at the moment is you know what's the what's the communication method

[00:18:17] that you're using and it's like well she's she's sent over her her her congratulations but that's

[00:18:22] kind of it there's no no more there you know what she's like and so no way in there through

[00:18:27] the sister effectively so it's the kind of exhaust at all options they've they've said Mariko had

[00:18:32] a relationship whether when they were younger but didn't doesn't know her very well lady rain

[00:18:36] her sister does still know her of course but there's no influence that lady rain would have on

[00:18:42] on Ashiba so that's that's shut down that's kind of option that they may have yeah it shut down

[00:18:46] there and the one other thing that you mentioned there um Father Martin is told that he's allowed

[00:18:50] to build his church in Edo on behalf of the Jesuit order um and then we have uh the other

[00:18:58] reward a lady gin is going to get her tea house district also in Edo um next to the church's plot

[00:19:05] of course I must say I just love that little sort of um disruptive sense of humor

[00:19:11] there in sort of 16th century Japan and so I really like that yeah and you see kind of

[00:19:17] uh Father Martin sort of going oh yeah you know his horse is out of order then he's gonna be

[00:19:22] crossed the way yeah yeah I mean I think the other thing about that is having lady gin and

[00:19:27] Kiku surveying their plot in Edo it's sort of realizing sort of imagining their dream or of this

[00:19:36] quarter of Edo that's dedicated to the Corsars and and again it's our army and Kiku having

[00:19:43] that conversation about um his loyalty and you know and her loyalty to gin and he's reflecting

[00:19:50] that mirroring it with his loyalty um to uh I think to his uncle actually or it might be

[00:19:59] the Lord Taranaga but in effect he's saying to Kiku is there a moment when loyalty becomes

[00:20:05] a disservice or a harm you know he sees his his favorite Corsars and loyalty to lady gin and

[00:20:12] he's there going but you brought this about because of your talent yeah and you know do you see

[00:20:20] that there is a moment where that loyalty is a disservice or a harm effectively to yourself and

[00:20:26] she's like no yeah and he's asking that in relation I think it's about Taranaga but I have in

[00:20:33] my notes that it's doubts about his uncle so I can't just I can't quite remember but it could

[00:20:40] be both it could be either of this because yeah and we've had that moment where John Blackthorn has

[00:20:47] been and sort of making propositions to and his uncle Yabashigate that's true yeah I did take it as

[00:20:56] a reflection of his thoughts about Taranaga again he's just lost his friend um who stood up for

[00:21:03] something he believed in as he as he said so uh so I take it that he's kind of going well everybody's

[00:21:08] blindly following Taranaga's lead here um and he sees Kiku following gin's lead here

[00:21:14] and just being still a course is on in her court even though she may get her own

[00:21:19] her own T House in the district because of her talents it's still lowly out by lady gin so I think

[00:21:25] he's kind of going hang on a second why you still loyal to her the way I'm loyal to Taranaga

[00:21:30] is there a point here where I should cut my ties and cut my loyalty because I think that's

[00:21:33] a lot of this episode as a base that loyalty to her and I think it equally works for both yes given

[00:21:39] the conversation beforehand so yeah but it's uh I must say he is my favorite kind of

[00:21:47] smaller part character because I just find the scenes that army has just at real points of

[00:21:57] influence yes so it feels like even though yes he's not a general he's just an effu to his uncle

[00:22:06] he's the head of a small wet fishing family you know he's actually become quite influential

[00:22:15] and part of that was through sort of um his conversations and manipulation of Taranaga's

[00:22:22] son yeah what you know it's quite an interesting character um absolutely but I think it's time to

[00:22:30] move on to our bachido point number two yes crew reunited yes smelly sailors absolutely absolutely

[00:22:42] it's hard to remember exactly what john's motivation has been throughout the show um John black torrent

[00:22:49] motivation has been throughout the show and he arrived at the beginning of the season on Japan with

[00:22:55] the mission um he was to go in find the trade routes take out possibly take out the Portuguese and

[00:23:02] begin new trade routes for the dutch and potentially for the English he had his mission getting into

[00:23:08] Japan he lost his crew he lost his uh his ship at the beginning of the season and his motivation

[00:23:14] for the whole season here was to get back to his crew potentially get a ship back and then maybe

[00:23:20] carry out the rest of the mission or maybe just sail back to England instead those those those were

[00:23:24] the options that we had there um so finally he is told when he gets to eddo his crew have actually

[00:23:30] been taken here this is where his crew have been resting their heads for the last while

[00:23:34] Taranaga never said that to him Taranaga never never gave them the information that his crew have

[00:23:39] been taken to a safe place in eddo yeah so I thought that was that was kind of interesting firstly

[00:23:45] because he's just told it as he crosses the border into the city uh he's told his crew are his

[00:23:49] crew are there for him and he's also released from a service yeah um he is no longer in service

[00:23:54] to Taranaga no longer has to do anything for him he's a completely free agent and he's given

[00:23:59] the journals that could have proved him a criminal and could have led to his death um they've been

[00:24:04] handed back to him by Mariko so he starts to set up his own household in uh in eddo he still has

[00:24:09] his household which is also mentioned um that his household is still being run back in the fishing

[00:24:15] village of a zero so whenever he does return there if he does um that that those lands title and

[00:24:22] monies are all still available to him uh Fuji's taken care of all of that for him but there is a

[00:24:27] moment when he bumps into further martin i just think it's a good setup point for what happens

[00:24:34] later when he meets up with this crew because not only is John speaking really good japanese to

[00:24:40] some of the people in eddo um when he bumps into further martin he's wearing the full outfit of a

[00:24:47] japanese person rather than any western clothes at all so martin comments on this uh to him kind

[00:24:53] of going you're gonna wear those things when you go and meet your crew because they're gonna think

[00:24:56] you've changed and you've been manipulated by the japanese he also tries to correct John's japanese

[00:25:02] as well John's looking for charcoal which burns brighter and will and will make us uh harsher and we'll

[00:25:09] make his uh new home much better and further martin thinks he's just looking for more wood so i like

[00:25:15] that because it's a it's a real challenge to john hang on a second the last time i saw you run your

[00:25:19] knees in front of tauranaga here you are with a title like at a mojo coming into the city wearing

[00:25:24] japanese clothes speaking japanese smelling fresh smelling fresh exactly so it's a good setup

[00:25:31] john wants nothing to do with further martin further martin's like the exact personification of what he

[00:25:37] hates most which is the church and and their hold they have on japan at the moment and that's

[00:25:42] developed over time so i thought that was really interesting to have the conversation between the two

[00:25:46] of them yeah no absolutely i think uh i think it's really good because i i like how it it gets john

[00:25:53] back from to almost question how he's going to reconnect with his crew and i mean ultimately

[00:26:00] you know he doesn't get that warm reception because he is the with his japanese clothes on and

[00:26:09] john blacklin is actually a bit repulsed by the smell and the stench of the one of the dutch

[00:26:15] crewman and probably as much from alcohol as well as everything else but you know the but really

[00:26:22] really important to point out that just so everybody remembers right back at the start of the

[00:26:26] season he was asked to bathe and he said no you know do you want me to die from from catching

[00:26:32] diseases from bathing too often was his idea in his head exactly and areas walking into an area that

[00:26:38] has alcohol has his his former crewmates that he would have known so well that he's holding his nose

[00:26:43] at the disgusting smells that he's smelling so yeah but he comes back to that whole thing where you

[00:26:49] know they had given up john blackthorn for dead and so you know they question what his purpose was

[00:26:58] what the purpose of this voyage was you know really you know that they could have turned around

[00:27:04] before the Magellan straights did they have to go past the you know what was this because like you say

[00:27:11] he hasn't you know a number of different roles here yes he was the pilot of the ship yes it was

[00:27:17] about a Dutch trade routes but it was also about breaking the monopoly of the Spanish and port

[00:27:24] juggies trade because at the time you had the Dutch fighting the spanish as well to be free

[00:27:33] of spanish rule and with England being an ally so it was about a bigger geopolitical sphere as well

[00:27:43] so you know again they're his journals so yeah you don't you know this that suspicion from the

[00:27:53] Dutch crew about well you know and now your here dressed in refined Japanese garment you haven't

[00:28:01] just been left to rot or to do your own thing even though he is also being prevented from leaving

[00:28:08] like they are yeah and it's that he has at least been given a title salary effectively and

[00:28:21] and lands in the house so they haven't so then it's that suspicion just immediately falls on him

[00:28:29] from this crew member yeah ends in in a fight it does it does and the other thing they're also he's

[00:28:35] also he questions is the ambition of John Blackthord it's not only that they could have turned

[00:28:40] around at some point and there wouldn't have been too bad a thing when they arrived on shores at

[00:28:43] least they got home safe in the live there are so questioning whether John Blackthorne did this

[00:28:48] just to be the first Englishman to cross the Magellan straight that ambition that's within John

[00:28:54] that he wants to be the brave adventurer traveling the world setting records which is part of the

[00:28:59] reason why the crewman's looking at him going you know is that what you've done here you know

[00:29:02] that ambition that you had to be the first to cross the Magellan straight is that the reason why

[00:29:06] you an Englishman are standing in front of me having learned Japanese wearing Japanese clothes

[00:29:10] having all your titles and finery have you just gone the ambitious route to make those connections

[00:29:16] and sort yourself out basically and not the rest of us yeah which is interesting yeah yeah so it's

[00:29:21] kind of less friends reunises and more friends who fight it yeah so that's the end I guess of the

[00:29:30] of the crew and John Blackthorne because it doesn't look like he's going to be gone back to them

[00:29:34] anytime soon and it doesn't look like they're going to be very interested in dealing with him he tries

[00:29:38] to say to them that he could have a full crew that he's worked with in Japan bring them along put

[00:29:43] them on their ship when they get that back and then they can make for the make for the horizon

[00:29:48] bush that doesn't seem what the what these guys want or this guy want to the represents the

[00:29:53] crew yeah exactly yeah but let us get on to bichido number three uh buntaro doesn't spill the tea

[00:30:02] but mariko does i'm sorry John that's my fault i know it is i couldn't think of anything better

[00:30:07] it's a great scene obviously um it is it is it is great scene and really in a way we've talked

[00:30:14] quite a bit about the relationship between buntaro and uh and mariko um we'll mention it again

[00:30:20] and i feedback because we've been continually getting feedback in since one of our piece of feedback

[00:30:25] mentioned uh just to mark the show runner saying that buntaro is truly in love with mariko and we

[00:30:30] were all as viewers watching the show going but he's never shown that he's in love with her he seems

[00:30:35] to despiser he seems to hate her he seems to want to keep her alive when she wants to die that kind

[00:30:39] of thing and and i think this might be the scene that just a marx is talking about yeah i think it

[00:30:44] is revealed here the buntaro in his mind feels like he does love mariko he has feelings for i mean

[00:30:52] i think just the whole act of the tea ceremony and being sort of so born out of a respect

[00:31:04] and a cure and attention i mean in some ways it almost shows a bit of that he has to show it through

[00:31:12] the tea ceremony rather than through his direct emotions and affections to her yeah but mariko

[00:31:19] ultimately does accept this um you know and it feels like it buntaro is a really difficult

[00:31:27] character um in terms of this relationship with mariko because you know it's kind of coming from

[00:31:35] a place of misogyny which was yeah it was i guess commonplace in those days the man being better

[00:31:42] than women um oh that's how i see it and that might just be a pure western i guess buntaro

[00:31:48] no i think as well no but i mean you also then even toranaga who understands the qualities that

[00:31:57] uh women can have it's for his purpose you know or he still pulls the the card of it's more he

[00:32:07] pulls the card of i am your lord rather than i am a man but do you know it's like it is a

[00:32:14] it's still a patriarchal society oh 100% 100% I'm sure i'm sure it is but buntaro in himself

[00:32:21] just taken on his own has not shown any love mariko throughout the season that we've seen on screen

[00:32:28] here he's using a ceremonial moment to show her that he loves her and he's telling her

[00:32:36] i'm trying to bring us back to those young days when we were once together at the beginning of

[00:32:40] our relationship where we were in love mariko says i don't remember those days and when you

[00:32:45] hear it the first time the way the she poses it to in the way she says it to him it sounds like

[00:32:50] i just don't have a memory of that she is saying to him there were no days like that that i loved you

[00:32:55] there may have been days that you love me back then but there were no days that i loved you

[00:32:59] and i wonder if it's partly that's what happened we didn't see their early years we only saw

[00:33:03] that moment when he saw her and then uh she was proposed to marriage and we knew that she wasn't happy

[00:33:09] with uh with the arranged marriage that was that was going on between the two families effectively

[00:33:13] with her at the at the center of it but it seems like maybe bluntaro wasn't love with her until she

[00:33:19] continually asked to enter life and then he realized that she has no love for him and now thinks by

[00:33:26] doing this before they die because he believes now toren ag is going to lose here and they are all

[00:33:32] gonna die if he does this reconciliation between the two of them then both of them can die

[00:33:38] honorably as well he says as a protest against toren ag are they both die together

[00:33:46] yeah and they can send a message to everybody else that they don't believe in toren ag are

[00:33:51] and i think that adds to how vitriolic the response from america is and it is it's like a dagger

[00:33:59] straight into his heart as she says to him you still don't understand the reason why i wanted to

[00:34:03] die was to get away from you if i have to die with you i'd rather live a thousand more years

[00:34:09] like that is brutal it is really brutal yeah come from person he's effectively declaring his love

[00:34:14] again exactly this this for me by a really difficult character with bluntaro because in that moment

[00:34:21] you're really conflicted because you're going wow that is hard that is the biggest burn i mean

[00:34:28] that's like proposing and um you know being basically told no yeah it's even more than that

[00:34:36] because i can't the engagement throwing back in your face or into the cc you can't retrieve

[00:34:40] any of the money back everything around it is so poetic i mean even the t ceremony in its own way

[00:34:46] it's so intimate and kind way of doing it but it is divorced from physical intimacy and in a sense

[00:34:57] emotional intimacy it's almost like it's done with the you know the three-level heart or the eight

[00:35:03] fold fence yeah it's almost that way of having to express it it is actually it's interesting you say

[00:35:09] that because he does say to her uh at the end of this of the ceremony she compliments them on his

[00:35:14] style of of doing the ceremony as well as he did and he says to her only for you as in i'm

[00:35:20] only doing it this brilliantly because i love you and i do feel that moment is where she

[00:35:26] breaks open her eightfold fence as we talked about back in that episode when she explains her

[00:35:31] most hidden deep thoughts the ones that could get you killed if you share them with anybody

[00:35:36] she shares them straight to punteras face and tells him i don't love you i'd rather live forever

[00:35:40] than die with you absolutely yeah and and that not back and essentially kind of on the one hand

[00:35:47] you're going you know totally justified from america to say this and yeah absolutely you know

[00:35:54] you're offering me death now you let alone the reasons for it yeah and but equally you kind of go

[00:36:03] oh well this and i guess ultimately by the end of the episode given what happens as well

[00:36:08] you go okay puntero how a bad return to edo yeah if you put it that way yes he did absolutely

[00:36:15] but i did think it was absolutely wonderful scene it's just superb it's the quiet power of marico

[00:36:21] after the quiet ceremony ceremony of the of the tea and i think that's it's the observation of the tea

[00:36:28] ceremony it's that observation of how they react to one another it reminded me of you know the

[00:36:37] veneered cups with gin with marico with fuzhi and the moment of kiku jambakso again it's just

[00:36:49] wonderfully observed really really um pitch perfect in how it's done and as i say i mean it's

[00:36:59] actually pure poetry just the the writing is so lovely yeah i think there's no other word

[00:37:07] i can say about it i mean even in even in the harshness just the way you know it's return to

[00:37:14] bonsaro okay it is a great sort of sense to it to have just power and marico spit in the tea yes

[00:37:22] exactly it's effectively the same thing so yeah really really good yeah scene i think for

[00:37:29] these two and it and it just adds to this really unfortunate relationship in a sense yeah yeah

[00:37:37] absolutely and but should we get on to bichido number four because things only get worse for

[00:37:44] all poor bonsaro i mean i have to say just spy everything i'm kind of like going yeah that's

[00:37:52] that's not a great few days in in edo absolutely as we have probably one of the more shocking

[00:38:01] parts of the series let alone this episode and with hiramatsu's sacrifice oh this is just

[00:38:10] incredible as a scene as as it's all staged as you see you know what looks like a sickly

[00:38:16] toronaga getting together all of his vassals um getting really aggressively angry about the fact that

[00:38:22] some of he's heard that some of them wore their arm or at the his son's funeral in protest and saying

[00:38:28] they are still dedicated to him and he has made the decision here they must follow what he tells

[00:38:35] them to do they must surrender um you know going against what hiramatsu had said earlier on

[00:38:40] yiramatsu thinking that um that he was actually just setting up for a battle and here he has them all

[00:38:46] lining up he's got a uh document written up for the malt assign agreeing that they will stay in line

[00:38:53] with toronaga they will surrender all of them um and you see as it goes down the line you see the

[00:38:59] faces of some of the vassals kind of going but is this still part of the plan is this you know is

[00:39:04] there gonna be a big twist here themselves and as a viewer absolutely you're watching it going

[00:39:08] where's the twist here toronaga is getting so aggressively forceful with the guys um you see

[00:39:14] the first two guys sign us and then they start to step back away from it they start to say they

[00:39:19] won't sign us well that's a challenge by um by his generals who have effectively say we are here

[00:39:27] to advise you not to just blindly follow orders you know this is an ascent his own um

[00:39:34] council of regents really within their clan you know his view is that this goes beyond his clan

[00:39:43] and the preservation of their clan this is about the preservation of Japan this is a more sort of

[00:39:54] holistic sort of national view of the best thing for Japan not his clan and I think you know

[00:40:02] it's it comes across as a surprise to Hiramatsu as well and so Hiramatsu's challenge ultimately is

[00:40:11] the the dead end the cul-de-sac challenge here of um challenging the

[00:40:19] ultimate clan power here of toronaga which is you know if you don't change your mind

[00:40:26] I will commit sepica you know and this is then that this kind of standoff between these two

[00:40:33] um you know his his trusted friend his influential advisor yeah his partner in crime in a lot

[00:40:40] of cases you know with Hiramatsu and and well I suppose last week seeing the flashback to

[00:40:48] the two of them side by side when toronaga was only what 13 wasn't on his first battle

[00:40:52] it was Hiramatsu that was standing by his side back then from his first battle to his last here um

[00:40:58] Hiramatsu what seems like totally unbelieving that his lord would um would stop here

[00:41:05] would um give up and would surrender and it's just it gets so stressful and gets so emotional when

[00:41:12] the two of them are are battling back and forth between each other and it's toronaga saying to him

[00:41:18] well then I guess we can't see any future time for sepica right um you know I guess we can't see

[00:41:22] an impasse here now you must kill yourself because that's what you said you'd do um and it's

[00:41:27] you can you can almost feel Hiramatsu pushing back against him both then sticking by his guns

[00:41:35] taking his sword making buntero be his second causing himself open and buntero taking his head

[00:41:41] yeah and the head rolling across the floor to the feet of toronaga in front of the rest of his

[00:41:45] generals the rest for the vessel it's well that's it as you say it's just really tense and

[00:41:51] the it's hugely charged hugely emotional it's even just you know the the responses of like army

[00:41:59] and you have a shiggy in uh in the in Lord toronaga's palace you know it's them they're kind of like

[00:42:07] is this for real is this really happening I love the fact that Hiramatsu says you know then this is

[00:42:13] for well um and I mean with buntero as I say you know what a few days for buntero because he has to

[00:42:21] be the second to and I fully decapitate uh his his father and but also he wants to follow his

[00:42:29] father into death and he his father refuses him to quote so he knows how it feels to be denied

[00:42:37] which feels like it's telling him well this is what you've been doing to mariko for all these years

[00:42:46] and this is the point where you kind of go is this just the ultimate sacrifice and I believe it is

[00:42:52] I believe that this is part of toronaga's plan because he says that you must not give up on your

[00:43:02] lord i.e. toronaga you ought to trust in him um oh and also because you see the effect of what's

[00:43:12] happened on toronaga with mariko again she's slaying on the poetry on the high q front

[00:43:19] it's absolutely yeah but you know he talks about his friend and his good friend so it feels like this is

[00:43:30] and some ways part of the plan i might be totally wrong but it just feels like that I don't think

[00:43:36] you're wrong or i think that's why it's such a shocking revelation when we have toronaga talking

[00:43:40] to mariko because not only is he talking about his friend he's saying that he remats who played

[00:43:44] his part yeah it's it's as if well it seems to me anyway toronaga saying this was the plan we came

[00:43:51] up with it was either everybody dies or we convince everybody that i'm going to surrender and in order

[00:44:00] to do that I had to sacrifice hit him at so and he was willing to make that sacrifice

[00:44:05] that i'm at my weakest because you see that it's he's lost his son he's effectively just lost

[00:44:12] his right hand advisor and you have him coughing splushing and looking a lot frailer over the course

[00:44:21] of this you have his conversation with father martin say you know tell them exactly what you saw

[00:44:27] here and it's interesting because when toronaga goes to his sons ashes um you know he goes thank you

[00:44:38] my son you earned me some extra time i will not waste it for you and here a matzu i will not waste it

[00:44:47] yeah you know and that's really it's a plan born out on the hoof of the opportunity that

[00:44:55] his son even though he thought he might do that he didn't necessarily know he would die yeah but

[00:45:03] he games everything and is opportunistic yeah and has a following that is

[00:45:13] absolutely loyal to the cause in what here and at so you don't and it's just kind of like that's also

[00:45:19] not just the shock of here on at so but it's just that scope of scenario gaming that toronaga is doing

[00:45:29] here absolutely and you know which is just like kind of so fantastic it's unbelievable yeah massively

[00:45:39] shocking massively shocking and but these scenes all end as we say when we get the reveal that this

[00:45:45] was the plan as he talks to marico and says to her now it's time are you ready to play your part

[00:45:51] he'd set her up and establish this with at marico that the reason she was almost hiding in plain sight

[00:45:57] in the total plan as married to bontero was because her father had left something for her to do

[00:46:03] a legacy for her to complete for their family when it comes to that point she will be brought in

[00:46:09] which is what toronaga is doing here he's telling her you need to go to a sakane um this is

[00:46:14] your play and so that will be interesting to see what happens there and we also get when we kind

[00:46:20] of mentioned it earlier on a little bit but we also get that john has aligned himself to the abashiga

[00:46:24] abashiga now accepted john coming on board because he does think toronaga is gone a bit crazy so

[00:46:29] he has to get himself out of there get himself to a sakane jones now being brought on board to

[00:46:34] to but I like how he discusses that with marico in that he kind of says have the abashiga

[00:46:42] and the engine have they aligned yes and they're like golf orks short wings you know

[00:46:49] that could only see so far in front of them um have only the notion of flying short distances

[00:46:58] not the long game um and you know and then chuck her into going to a sakane as part of a plan of

[00:47:07] one he he believes she can do for him in a sakane yeah and can execute it but also

[00:47:15] it's disruptive for john blackthorn the fact that she is there and you see it on their faces when

[00:47:21] she comes aboard the ship taking them to a sakane uh later at night you know unexpectedly and

[00:47:30] you can sense the disruption that she's just introduced onboard that ship not only with john

[00:47:36] blackthorn but with the abashiga yes absolutely although there is an interesting thing that I

[00:47:41] noticed watching this episode through a couple of times i'd mentioned before the john is starting to

[00:47:46] learn japanese it's quite good he's not not grace but it's quite good but it is quite interesting

[00:47:51] this that i wonder whether john has just been learning phrases that he needs in certain situations

[00:47:57] to make it seem like he's getting on better in japan than he is you know he easily is able to go up to

[00:48:04] lorternaga and tell him that he's a mourns the loss of his son which would be a phrase that

[00:48:08] would be something that maybe you would you would you would you would learn to say something you may

[00:48:13] have specifically asked marico how can i say this phrase and then set it over and over in his head

[00:48:17] and gone to lorternaga but there's a moment with yabashiga and john on their own on the ship when

[00:48:23] yabashiga comes to him and says that thing you said the other day i really appreciate it it's

[00:48:28] something like that roughly and john looks at him completely blankly and it's a very that would

[00:48:33] seem like a much more simple phrase if you're learning if you're learning a new language you would

[00:48:37] learn relatively simple phrases like that was a good thing you said you know yeah yeah so it's

[00:48:43] like as if if marico didn't come aboard john and yabashiga would be going all the way back to

[00:48:49] not maybe not being able to understand each other like they weren't able to understand each other

[00:48:53] at the beginning of the series you know so marico being a board at least she can help translate

[00:48:57] between the two of them as well so thought that was interesting and also speak it of that you know

[00:49:03] john being aligned to yabashiga at the end of the series here when the series started with

[00:49:09] one of his crewmen being boiled alive by this guy and his nephew peeing on john kicking him in

[00:49:15] the dursh you know and now he's aligned with that family of all the people that he could have been

[00:49:19] aligned with and all of japan here he is aboard this guy ship working with him that's a really

[00:49:24] interesting twist in the the long tail of john blackthrunner in japan no absolutely absolutely

[00:49:30] and and i think yeah it's a really interesting twist gained to that last episode but speaking of last

[00:49:38] let us get to our last boshido boshido number five yes mean well in the second

[00:49:45] in a second yes i mean we've already discussed about you know word reaching leader shiba and shido

[00:49:52] about tionaga surrender and effectively you know in in at least a shido's mind his capitulation

[00:50:00] would hear that you know there are a number of other things that happen over this episode which

[00:50:09] possibly has a bearing on how strong this alliance between lady shiba and shido is and possibly

[00:50:19] the amount of influence that mariko may have on lady shiba because we see the day in the lady

[00:50:28] day and dying from a stroke but before she passes away and she warns lady shiba of

[00:50:41] aligning with a shido and that he came from nothing and is effectively a man of nothing

[00:50:50] and that they've picked the wrong side to some extent yeah and this is after a shido proposing

[00:50:57] to strengthen this alliance that they have and with through marriage effectively between the two

[00:51:05] and she doesn't answer him immediately anyway well there's more to it earlier on yeah there's more to

[00:51:11] I will leave that with you to to to think about i think he gets the reaction that he didn't want

[00:51:17] because he's saying to her not only is he saying too strengthened to the world as more his

[00:51:23] his proposely saying to strengthen it to the rest of japan if we get married then they'll

[00:51:28] understand that our goals are aligned effectively but he's also saying i've always looked at you

[00:51:33] and looked upon you and and loved you since the moment i first saw you when you were brought in as

[00:51:39] as the uh bearer of the of the air to the throne i've always wanted to be with you i'm when he gets

[00:51:46] the reaction that he gets from a shiba it really looks like no no i'm here to get revenge that's why

[00:51:52] i'm here i'm not here to join you a shido in your plan i'm here to get revenge i'm not even thinking

[00:51:58] about my future relationship or anything like that and interestingly as the dayun is dying she's

[00:52:04] not only telling her they may have aligned to the wrong people but she's saying let the prisoners

[00:52:08] go ledgy a shiba you need to do something about this the people that you've pushed in prison here

[00:52:13] in a sacadu not see how bad that is you know um there's absolutely you know your your son is going

[00:52:19] to become the heir to the throne and this is what you're gonna this is the legacy you're gonna leave

[00:52:23] them with and the time that we saw tornaga in a sacadu he very much was

[00:52:30] friendly respectful to the lady uh dayun you know who was the wife of the tycoe so like it's

[00:52:39] really kind of interesting like development okay it kind of hangs in the air really there's no

[00:52:47] resolution here but it's kind of interesting sort of um plot lines just hanging the

[00:52:56] waiting for it to resolve later on where you can you can see that it poses more

[00:53:03] quandary for lady shiba than it does necessarily convince her to do something about it

[00:53:11] well i think what i do like a bit both scenes is exactly as you say both scenes are questions

[00:53:17] to lady shiba and both go unanswered exactly both of them are met with silence in a way

[00:53:25] almost you know lady shiba as we mentioned earlier on the season when she arrived the big villain

[00:53:29] of the series almost she is uh the other sides to tornaga she's exactly the same as him in some ways

[00:53:36] she's considering all the possibilities considering all the outcomes she's not a rash person

[00:53:41] she's not going to be giving her answer to anybody just because they're telling her what she should

[00:53:46] be doing she's going to be considering yes and also the audience or me as a member of the audience

[00:53:51] watching her i'm going i don't know which way she's gonna go here i have no idea whether she is

[00:53:55] going to make this decision of marriage and the series ends with her as the leader of japan

[00:54:01] with a shido at her side or will she go a completely different way will she take the advice

[00:54:07] of the dayun stop everything walk away from a shido you know i don't absolutely don't know and

[00:54:13] that's what i that's what i think is really interesting about both of those scenes and the character

[00:54:17] yourself i think is really really interested to watch yeah definitely i think we've come to the end

[00:54:21] of our top five baschitos any more notes Derek on this episode only just one thing that i forgot

[00:54:28] about why uh john blackthorn is choosing your baschiga to be the one to align with just because i

[00:54:33] thought it was quite important um john says he knows he doesn't belong in japan but that's kind of

[00:54:40] where fate's put him and he needs to make something out of his fate now that's what's left to him

[00:54:45] and from seeing yabashiga fall and be willing to commit sepaku back in the first time he met him

[00:54:53] he realizes yabashiga is also someone that follows his face and will be willing to do whatever it takes

[00:54:58] to uh realize his face so that's john's proposal to yabashiga to to join up with them so that was

[00:55:05] again interesting on their arc of a story yeah no absolutely and also to that point i think

[00:55:10] that initially encounter between john blackthorn you know looking to serve yabashiga on the ship

[00:55:18] but it's really good because effectively you can see yabashiga contemplating it probably wanting

[00:55:26] to accept it but refuses it because marico is essentially saying it's treachery that is being

[00:55:35] proposed true and army equally is looking at his uncle yes in terms of what his answer maybe so he

[00:55:44] does refuse it and i think there's even one point where marico says do you want me to translate that

[00:55:49] to yabashiga and she doesn't give yabashiga the exact um response of john blackthorn do i kind

[00:55:59] of really really enjoyed that yeah translation sort of scene there were john blackthorn is

[00:56:06] effectively looking to bail well no he has been made a free agent so he is looking to see where

[00:56:13] he can go but his reasoning is that taranaga has led them down to a cul-de-sac at the very end

[00:56:22] of the previous episode he says you're all going to die yes and so he sees that it's almost a

[00:56:29] hopeless situation for this clan this army yeah these generals or vassals you know yeah and i do

[00:56:39] wonder whether yabashiga is wondering whether there's another test from taranaga we're given

[00:56:45] everything he's gone through throughout the season he's kind of going to turn like a sen john blackthorn

[00:56:50] to test my loyalty with me as well with marico right by a side who marico is still very close to

[00:56:55] taranaga as we've seen you know at the two of them sitting in the room asking yabashiga where does

[00:56:59] it leach and slide you know at the proposal from john is that as soon as taranaga's dead because he's

[00:57:04] definitely going to die as soon as he's dead i want to be ban a man for you i want to be on your side

[00:57:09] i want to be uh i want to be working with you and um you have a shiga responding with well that's

[00:57:14] not gonna happen taranaga's gonna win this whatever way it works i'm still loyal to my lord so

[00:57:20] i do wonder if i would go in through his mind and all the possibilities that were there maybe this

[00:57:24] is a test from taranaga for me and my loyalty once again but he understands what it would mean

[00:57:30] for him to say yes you can i think yeah then i think suddenly from the reaction that marico

[00:57:38] is effectively uh saying to to john blackthorn and to yabashiga as well so yeah i just really like

[00:57:47] that scene oh absolutely absolutely well overall john we've got the end of chapter eight of

[00:57:53] shogun what did you think overall of the episode any final thoughts i absolutely love this episode

[00:57:58] and i just give five plans out of five nice and i just really like how this all kind of feels like

[00:58:08] it's fitted together through whether it's a long term strategy or plan whether it's tactical

[00:58:16] whether it's just taking the opportunity as it arises i love this kind of master of lord taranaga

[00:58:26] you know whether it is through all these different tricks and techniques that he is using it it

[00:58:34] almost feels you know that this is the japanese version of macaveli you know from isli and i really

[00:58:41] really are enjoying it and it just feels like it all feels so very kind of consistent even though i

[00:58:49] would say half the conversations that leads you to that point like for example you know that

[00:58:58] hiramatsu and taranaga had a conversation to come up with that and spectacle at his palace in front

[00:59:07] of his generals in front of his trusted advisors and you know they've had that conversation but

[00:59:13] the fact that it's not shown so it comes as a shock a great storytelling and i just love the whole

[00:59:20] sort of scale of this it's really good and i also just those kind of neat being an eddo which

[00:59:27] ultimately is tokyo it's the you know this so this is where the capital becomes and that's the

[00:59:33] other thing that's constantly in my sort of in my mind is just that you know taranaga's seat of

[00:59:41] power is effectively what becomes the capital of japan up so and you know whatever he does here

[00:59:48] lays the foundation and in terms of these plans machinations strategy and even that whole thing

[01:00:00] it's not about my clan it's not about this clan it's about for a path well absolutely loved it

[01:00:06] yet five plans out five great plans great plan yes meticulously planned plans

[01:00:12] yeah exactly because i do wonder you know if the plan itself just quickly to talk about that

[01:00:17] because i loved the episode as well and i'm thinking i'm constantly thinking about things that

[01:00:21] happened i'm wondering if his plan was set in motion with him saying i'm going to surrender and

[01:00:26] his mind he was going to take whatever chance he's going to take a next week's episode with marico

[01:00:31] that that was his plan then his son died and now he's been able to build on that plan let's say

[01:00:38] to expand upon it now he's been able to make sure that a second no he's at his weakest point

[01:00:43] make sure he's lost his greatest allies all of those efforts he's lost his greatest ally there's

[01:00:49] discord amongst all his his key generals yeah and he's surrounded by his half-brothers army waiting

[01:00:57] to bring him back it's smoke and mirrors it's there so that he's providing for them and i love

[01:01:02] that they the sheba is still not convinced until she's got his face pressed exactly in supplication

[01:01:08] you know so i really really am enjoying this absolutely absolutely but i do i do wonder if the original

[01:01:14] plan of surrender before any of this happened that was still the cogs were working in his mind that

[01:01:22] i will i will say i'm surrendering but i'm not really going to surrender in the future i have some

[01:01:25] plan there but it's now been expanded upon quite considerably because of his son's death yeah

[01:01:30] yeah and as as he said you've bought me time exactly you've earned me time yeah and speaking of time

[01:01:38] i think it's time to guess some of our feedback from our fellow warriors at base chapter seven

[01:01:44] last week's episode to cast your mind back in time yes first up we have an email from Hattomoto Von

[01:01:51] Dune yo warriors just a couple of random thoughts time nagas description of his brother was right

[01:01:58] on point what a jerk nagasado once again exercised poor judgment what a sad way to die

[01:02:07] he should have enlisted bun tarot against the kai how is mortician to make a living with all these

[01:02:13] heads being lost i'm surprised john blackthorn keeps his head after tossing insults to the vassals

[01:02:21] sayonara hattomoto Von Dune well absolutely that challenge at the end of episode seven from

[01:02:29] john blackthorn is literally that and but i guess their predicament with

[01:02:36] tarot nagas half brother sort of and his forces assembled in front of them it maybe just not the right

[01:02:42] time or place but ultimately it is a direct challenge and insulting a disrespectful challenge to

[01:02:50] and the vassals of lord tarot nagas so yeah interesting but again i wonder did tarot nagas take

[01:02:57] the opportunity to stick move there and just cuss john blackthorn loose because john blackthorn is

[01:03:02] the unknown quantity that uh tarot nagas on his side a sack of may fear what john blackthorn has

[01:03:09] been teaching uh tarot nagas forces about about western ways so now he's causing free he's kicked

[01:03:15] him out he sent him to the curb and there's a reason for it because he was so insulting to them so

[01:03:20] if the story gets back to them there's a story there for john blackthorn as well yeah exactly great

[01:03:24] still a layer of the cake yeah exactly thanks so much has commoto Von Dune yes thanks so much

[01:03:31] has motive on do we also got an email in from leesau says hi Derek and john thanks for the wonderful

[01:03:36] discussion of show gun i am a new listener of your show and happy to offend such a thoughtful podcast

[01:03:41] okay let's be clear but tarot does not love marico he is the classic abuser a cowardly weak man who

[01:03:48] seeks to feel important by destroying his partner he knew that she was marrying beneath her station

[01:03:53] as she pointed out he saw her practicing her samurai skills and knew she was more than worthy

[01:03:58] and that he was unworthy he said to tarot nagas that he thought she would be grateful when he saved

[01:04:03] her from death and has been waiting for it to be grateful he can only feel manly when his partners

[01:04:09] are broken he keeps her around hoping that he can break her and because of the lesbians to use his

[01:04:14] power over her but as she pointed out to blackthorn she won't give him anything what he feels is not

[01:04:20] it is also not about seeing her greater purpose for the cause and wanting her to live he wants to kill

[01:04:25] blackthorn because he is now being forced to see that she will never feel for him what he has been

[01:04:30] trying to make her feel but he has convinced himself it is her problem i am not his he now sees

[01:04:37] that she is in fact capable which only reinforces that it is he who is unworthy and unmanly thoughts

[01:04:45] thanks Lisa that's excellently put Lisa i couldn't i couldn't have said it better and didn't say

[01:04:50] it better when i was talking about it earlier on but that's absolutely who butaro is he is that

[01:04:55] plastic abuser who believes what he wants he should be getting he wants her to love him doesn't

[01:05:01] really love her he doesn't even know what it is and in this episode i think we get a great

[01:05:06] moment from a medical and then chapter eight and we got that great moment from marica where she

[01:05:11] reveals to him i've never loved you don't know what you're talking about i'd rather live forever

[01:05:15] than die with you and again he's trying to grant her what she's wanted from him which is death

[01:05:22] but for his reasons so it can be a protest against law of tyrannaga not because she wants death

[01:05:30] she's he's finally granting it he wants to do even his father sees that as well and denies

[01:05:37] him the chance to follow yeah his father in sepica exactly exactly brilliantly so thanks so much

[01:05:45] and great to hear your new listener of tv podcast industry absolutely thanks so much Lisa for the

[01:05:49] feedback really really grace yeah and on facebook jamey lawson says being a player of total war

[01:05:57] show gone too i was quite pleased to see that as she does ships were familiar to me oh very good so

[01:06:03] another massive detail again yeah the detail the show's incredible it's watching a video about the

[01:06:09] the actual tea ceremony from the person who taught them how to do the tea ceremony in this episode

[01:06:13] of the show and they were saying that tea ceremonies can last between 40 minutes to four hours

[01:06:18] depending and the whole purpose of it is to ensure you show trust between the two people that

[01:06:22] something that you do because everybody's involved that you're working together it's a really important

[01:06:26] service and that's the kind of level of authenticity they brought to the show so interesting that

[01:06:31] the same ships that were used in in a video game at all total war show going to are also being

[01:06:38] brought into the into the show here so you recognize them from there very cool very cool jamey absolutely

[01:06:43] thanks jamey also on facebook dr bob phillips says why shouldn't time be measured in alternative units

[01:06:50] i found myself asking as this episode started for example dollics mention time in rels and

[01:06:57] impolian did something unspeakable with clocks didn't he why not have a show that lasts 1.4

[01:07:04] candle inches oh my god what the hell is his brother doing essentially this episode had me mildly

[01:07:11] watching to full energy absorption in a heartbeat how we knocked over tyrannarga's peace in defeat

[01:07:18] did blackthorn really huff off or is it an engine cunning ruse how traumatic is that childhood

[01:07:26] is this the first authorised red light district this is why ponds need covers or close adult

[01:07:34] supervision because children can die in them why is there only one episode left well dr bob it will

[01:07:42] be very good for you to hear that there is another three episodes to go well and

[01:07:49] including this one absolutely and another two more remaining yeah ten episode series the perfect

[01:07:55] account for a tv share of 2.8 candle inches left to go after episode eight but no i love this running

[01:08:04] commentary from dr barbit does feel like he's watching and reacting to what's happening on the screen

[01:08:10] that exactly the same time i love what i got to got to dr bob talking about the time being measured

[01:08:16] in units and then suddenly going what the hell is this brother do because that's what it feels

[01:08:21] like sometimes pay attention to this show or it will come in bichor or shake you and wake you up

[01:08:27] very quickly what does well that's true i mean whether it is the tyrannarga peace on the chess

[01:08:33] board that has been knocked over in surrender or whether it is a ruse maybe the ruse includes old

[01:08:42] john backthorn having his little huff and puff and throwing a little hissy fit maybe maybe i'm not

[01:08:49] sure whether you trust john that much no i don't think it does yeah especially just that that

[01:08:54] comment that he made in this episode of of they do exactly what you expect them to do does to the

[01:08:58] upper shegan and john they may think they're really smart but they do exactly exactly well that's

[01:09:02] yeah i think the engine is a distraction for people yeah it allows an element of distraction yes

[01:09:09] yes why is this guy in his court why has he been given at a motor wise being given these honors me

[01:09:16] we've heard it from on me so yes you know i think there's a distraction element here to why he's

[01:09:22] brought on board not just getting tactics yeah yeah so interesting and dr bob i do want to know

[01:09:31] what it was that the polian did with clocks is it something like you created the 10 day working week

[01:09:37] i have no i like it's that's something the back of me mind i've just got caught none from south

[01:09:41] ball came my mind at this moment okay but i don't know i don't know what i push anyway thanks so much

[01:09:47] that to bob we have got some comments over on youtube first up sarah says oh my god this podcast

[01:09:53] of i show going just appeared on my recommendations and i heard nirah shaxan as an irish girl adoring

[01:09:57] this show it's amazing that that youtube finally shows me things i want fun fun fun to ask

[01:10:05] i hope you're i hope you're enjoyed the podcast as well actually i meant to mention google

[01:10:09] podcasts is shutting down so we're moving all over podcasts from google podcasts over to youtube

[01:10:13] at the moment so they are all audio podcasts of course just like all of our podcasts but you should

[01:10:18] be able to get most of them now over on youtube and a good function of that especially if you can't

[01:10:23] understand my irish accent occasionally is that there are of course subtitles on our youtube

[01:10:28] video so you can watch along with the subtitles hopefully the subtitles are translated correctly

[01:10:34] from our accents so but they are there so hopefully that'll help and our understanding of those

[01:10:39] words that were pronouncing correctly it will still be spelt incorrectly in the subtitles though

[01:10:44] yeah excellent welcome both sarah absolutely thanks sarah david says i haven't read the book so

[01:10:50] i don't know what will happen next but my guess is that toranaga and his half brother sakai have

[01:10:54] a secret plot to double cross shido toranaga is pretending to surrender to his half brother and

[01:11:00] allowed him to be escorted back to asaka castle this way toranaga is able to avoid the very

[01:11:05] dangerous task of trying to fight his way to asaka with a smaller army against a larger foe once

[01:11:11] asaka castle saki will reveal the double cross and side with toranaga with his full army at the

[01:11:17] gates of asaka that's my current theory so it's actually providence that causes toranaga sun's

[01:11:22] foot to slip and save saki from being killed by the sun who doesn't know the plan and was trying

[01:11:28] to murder sakai what do others think of my idea well david i think that is a fantastic idea and theory

[01:11:36] that's really honest yeah i think it's really good and actually you just wouldn't put it past toranaga

[01:11:42] doing that and who knows maybe there is something in that to call i mean it feels less so from

[01:11:49] episode eight it feels like he's it's much more contained but nonetheless i think that's a

[01:11:56] you know it's like the trojan horse approach effectively or but less hidden i guess well yeah

[01:12:04] yeah would actually hidden under the guise the trojan horse of surrender you know basically yes so

[01:12:10] i really really like that idea yeah that's great david thanks to that thank you so much david for

[01:12:16] that wonderful theory yeah that's really cool and finally we have john in asaka who says

[01:12:23] buntara actually loves mariko but he is too emotionally immature to deal with her lack of love for him

[01:12:32] i think there's probably you know a good amount of truth in that as well i think you know

[01:12:39] i know it's almost cliché to say but in his own weird way he probably does fix it does

[01:12:46] or he thinks he does exactly it is that immaturity and i think whilst there is probably great intimacy

[01:12:53] and so on around the tea ceremony and how you project feelings through that or you know yeah that

[01:12:59] as you say team you know working together to make this this cup of tea i guess from a modern

[01:13:07] perspective it's that emotional detachment of showing it through that that seems strange exactly but

[01:13:14] that's maybe what they did more so it's that emotional detachment still it's it's formalizing it

[01:13:22] yeah through the tea ceremony but there's not the intimacy or that in a sense mariko has

[01:13:30] experienced with with john blackthorn yes there's also so little behind the tea ceremony from

[01:13:38] buntara he's not calling on do you remember that day you remember that time i i don't know

[01:13:42] brought you talk but bought you chocolate so brought you to dinner and brought you to your favorite

[01:13:47] favorite play you know there's none of that stuff by i just all remember that time i got absolutely

[01:13:51] drunk with an engine and then fired arrows past you for exactly him yeah he has he has nothing

[01:13:59] to show here he's saying to remember that time when we met first when we were so in love and she's

[01:14:03] going out remember that though that didn't exist you're building it up in your mind and i think

[01:14:07] you know to go back to the point uh made early on at the classic abuser we often yeah

[01:14:12] are told that he does love her in his own way we're often told yeah that that idea that someone

[01:14:19] that would actually hiss their partner beat them for doing things that had nothing to do with them

[01:14:23] would beat anybody for doing things that had nothing to do with them but for beat the person

[01:14:27] they're supposed to love that they do love them in their own way and should stick with them he's okay

[01:14:31] that was just a bad moment you know this is this moment here in this episode proves to me

[01:14:35] but i have no idea what love is and is trying to use the classic trappings to convince marico that he

[01:14:42] does lover when actually there's nothing there not completely agree yeah that's why it's a

[01:14:48] cliche thing from his perspective exactly exactly he thinks he does in the way he does it yeah and it's

[01:14:55] not at all that's that love no excellent stuff thanks john for the feedback and thank you

[01:15:02] to all our fellow warriors and for your thoughts theories on episode seven of shogun can't wait

[01:15:11] to hear what you thought of this episode episode eight yes absolutely thanks so much for all of

[01:15:17] your feedback and thanks so much for joining us for this podcast about shogun has been great having

[01:15:21] all the new listeners that are listening to us just for shogun on our 10th anniversary year

[01:15:26] bringing in brand new listeners is always good fun so i'm really enjoying the show and

[01:15:30] looking forward to the last two chapters of shogun yes at the show i can't wait to see how this

[01:15:38] unfolds and remember fellow warriors that we will be back next Wednesday with our chat all about

[01:15:46] shogun chapter nine crimson sky yes the crimson sky finally comes to pass it's over a brief

[01:15:55] moment i thought i had said crimson ties in this episode already yeah it's not the time class

[01:16:00] you know i think so yeah that's the sun type like that i don't know that's a reluct over that's

[01:16:05] good but you're different it's late i'm starting to fade i totally understand totally understand

[01:16:11] all that thank you so much for joining us for speedticket next time yeah thank you so much fellow warriors

[01:16:16] until chapter nine of shogun remember keep watching and keep listening bye bye