Shogun Chapter 7 Podcast

[00:00:00] This is the Shogun Podcast on TV Podcast Industries, we're back with Shogun Chapter 7, a stick of time.

[00:00:30] We're going to be able to help with stepping the spare bouts for it in the whole, I think

[00:00:37] to say all myself. Then we could be out of that channel and we could...

[00:00:44] What could we do, Anjinsama?

[00:00:48] Anything is better than standing here, pissing around.

[00:01:00] Welcome back fellow warriors, two TV Podcast Industries. We're talking about Shogun.

[00:01:17] Shogun Chapter 7, a stick of time. I'm one of your host Derrick. Hello there fellow warriors.

[00:01:22] I am one of your other hosts, John. Yes, a stick in time saves nine.

[00:01:28] I mean a stitch in time. That's right. Let's try to work out what a stick of time was for most of this episode.

[00:01:35] Yeah, and still we actually have it. I was like, is it a candle? Because a candle burns for quite a long time.

[00:01:40] It could be like six hours of your time.

[00:01:42] I like that. I don't think I ever have recalled that kind of process that you have a stick of my time.

[00:01:50] I like it though. Yeah, I do. Certainly for someone who's very busy. It's kind of like saying, right, you've got this long.

[00:01:57] Exactly. I've got a longer takes for that to burn down. That's all we have to talk about.

[00:02:01] But I think we'll be talking for a little longer than a stick of time here on this podcast because there is a loss that happens in this episode.

[00:02:08] Because it's very bad time this week in a zero village, isn't it? It certainly is. Yes, basically held hostage really even the surrounding troops of turnogas half mongrel brother old nobu tasu.

[00:02:22] Yes, yes, interesting to meet number tattoo and everything that's going on. But of course we're going to spoil all that as we go into our discussion about this episode of Shogun.

[00:02:29] Just make just a reminder to go and make sure that you've subscribed to the podcast over on TV podcast industries.

[00:02:34] You can find that many good or evil podcast player or pop on our website at TVpodcastindustry.com.

[00:02:40] You can subscribe to the main feed or any of the feeds. The reason why I say the main feed is because you can get access to all of the other shows that were podcasted which are three podcasts a week at the moment with Shogun.

[00:02:49] Star Wars at the bad batch, the final season of that animated Star Wars show.

[00:02:53] And also the end of the second season of invincible a hyper violent TV show over on prime videos.

[00:03:01] So go check does that if you have any interest in catching up with our animated discussions on those animated shows, but this one isn't animated and it's quite quite brittle and very adult.

[00:03:12] Yes, absolutely.

[00:03:14] And it's fantastic. It's great to be back after a break we did up to episode six through the screeners that we got.

[00:03:21] And now we are going episode by episode till the 10th and glorious episodes.

[00:03:29] Yes, but I'm still very lucky to have our screeners and vans so we're able to record ahead of time.

[00:03:34] We got them back again.

[00:03:35] We did get them back the last four episodes.

[00:03:37] So looking forward to talking about those.

[00:03:40] But we do still want to hear your feedback. We want to hear from you what your thoughts on Shogun and the big difference I suppose since the last time we recorded is it's all right there now people have been watching it and wow it's hitting hard people are loving.

[00:03:51] Yeah, they are absolutely.

[00:03:52] It's going down really well right this out. It's such a great show.

[00:03:55] Really, really exciting every week with everything that's going on all the movements and machinations in Japan.

[00:04:01] Well, that's is it's all that kind of.

[00:04:04] Cunning and the machinations all the kind of double speak the subtlety of it so good.

[00:04:11] I love the dialogue, I love all the kind of plotting and scheming that's going on.

[00:04:17] All these powerful individuals sort of butting up against one another really good.

[00:04:23] The dialogue is so good that John actually asked me to take a quote from this episode from the discussion between Jin and Tora Nagar.

[00:04:29] I had to point out to him that it's in Japanese and it wouldn't work very well at the start of our English speaking podcast so that is true.

[00:04:35] Maybe we put it at the end because even now it's just this lovely.

[00:04:38] It is, it is lovely.

[00:04:39] And I think it's really cornerstone of this episode.

[00:04:43] Well, we will talk about it.

[00:04:44] I think Jin with Tora Nagar and indeed Blackthulm kind of slightly different reasons but certainly the same element is that I think Jin says Cunning and the machinations are the same.

[00:04:58] Jin says Cunning and Blackthulm says Trickery.

[00:05:02] But really good observations from these two that are kind of outside of his inner circle.

[00:05:10] Well, yeah exactly or maybe have made it into his inner circle after this episode anyway.

[00:05:15] But let's get into our discussion at this episode of Shogun at the time.

[00:05:20] Yes Derek, who gave us what when were how and why?

[00:05:23] Well, the show of course is based on the James Lable 1975 novel of the same name.

[00:05:28] The show was created for television of course by Rachel Kondo and Justin Marx.

[00:05:32] The writer of this week's episode was Matt Lambrich.

[00:05:35] His second episode of Shogun had the Oscar-roach episode five broken to the fist and this episode was directed by Takeshi Fukunaga.

[00:05:41] He's directed two episodes of season two of Tokyo Vice, a series that's also getting some massive praise coming out of Japan at the moment.

[00:05:49] Really intrigued to see that when we got it available over here.

[00:05:52] I couldn't find this on TV over here so hopefully it's coming soon because I've heard great things about it.

[00:05:57] Definitely, yeah be really good.

[00:05:58] John, do you want to tell us what they gave us with this synopsis for Shogun Chapter 7?

[00:06:03] Sure.

[00:06:04] Outplayed by new alliances in Osaka,

[00:06:07] Taro Naga is forced to carve out a new deal with a long lost family member.

[00:06:13] I would say you could probably switch those two sentences around.

[00:06:16] I'd say Taro Naga's forced to carve out a new deal with a long lost family member and is still at play by alliances in Osaka.

[00:06:24] And this episode, yeah.

[00:06:25] Feels like it starts that way and ends by the end of the episode as he's been maneuvered once again by the new alliances that are in there.

[00:06:32] I guess so or easy.

[00:06:34] Or is he?

[00:06:35] Is the question is he isn't he?

[00:06:38] Because I think that's the importance of his sticking time with Jim.

[00:06:43] Yes.

[00:06:44] And also the kind of defiance of John Blackthorn as Taro Naga is submitting to Nobutatsu, his half-brother to go to Osaka.

[00:06:57] That outburst is one of the observation of John Blackthorn as to maybe what is really happening here.

[00:07:07] And I think it ultimately all spins on a top ring at the end with what happened.

[00:07:13] And because of that, you just know and looking forward to episode 8 then, he's held that plays out.

[00:07:21] So yeah, I think let us get into our top baschitos for episode 7 of Shogun a stick of time.

[00:07:30] Yes, let's start out with baschito one, the arrival of Sakai Nobutatsu, the half-brother.

[00:07:35] Yes, the mongrel indeed.

[00:07:38] Well yes, it does hold me up all this kind of disparaging remarks from Taro Naga to hear Ramanatsu around this half-brother.

[00:07:47] Obviously away from his face but yes, the arrival of his half-brother.

[00:07:52] Yeah, he's super polite to him as he arrives.

[00:07:55] This idea that obviously after losing so much of his army in the earthquake,

[00:08:00] that he has to reject to his half-brother who hasn't spoken to in a very long time as Ramanatsu says,

[00:08:05] probably too long to be calling on him for aid.

[00:08:08] But that opening moment does feel like he's extending this hand of potential friendship

[00:08:15] and trying to reignite their relationship between these two that don't seem to have gotten on very well

[00:08:21] as an interesting line from Nobutatsu who kind of sums up the situation saying things have gotten so bad

[00:08:26] that you summon the vast legions of your mediocre brother.

[00:08:29] So he knows or he feels he knows what Taro Naga actually thinks of him.

[00:08:33] Well that's it, I mean it's then complete charm offensive.

[00:08:37] You know that he gets Kiku hired for a week to be effectively Nabutatsu's quarters out for the week and to give him pleasure.

[00:08:49] He is, you know before the proposal, that official proposal they're going to share those stories,

[00:08:55] you know get good and drunk I think they say.

[00:08:58] You know can take in the hot springs of the area.

[00:09:01] It really is a charm offensive as to whether it's going to be wasted on him

[00:09:05] because I do feel as though Sakai is very clued in to see that this is a move

[00:09:13] that at least outwardly looks desperate because of the decimated army

[00:09:19] which you know he has noticed in riding in to the Agirra area

[00:09:24] and he's in no doubt that in some ways he is also being used here.

[00:09:31] Oh absolutely.

[00:09:32] I think he probably understands Taro Naga not say that he's breached that inner wall of his to know his exact thoughts.

[00:09:41] He doesn't know his third harsh I don't think no, but I think he understands the level of Taro Naga here in terms of how he plays the game.

[00:09:51] I agree absolutely, but I also think the charm offensive does slightly work because we do hear over dinner that Nabutatsu is looking for the offer

[00:09:59] and wondering what it could be could he met potentially be Lord of Isu

[00:10:03] because he likes this place so much and the springs seem to be quite good.

[00:10:07] Kiku's obviously doing her job quite well and he's kind of going oh well maybe I could take over this whole area.

[00:10:11] I do like the little look over us.

[00:10:15] The Abu Shiga who's sitting at the dinner table and he kind of gives this look of hang on a second

[00:10:21] and he's looking to take over my lands now for me.

[00:10:23] Yeah exactly.

[00:10:24] That was very interesting, but that dinner scene where we have him at the head of the table beside Taro Naga

[00:10:30] as brother as he's sharing these stories but they start to guess less respectful of Taro Naga

[00:10:36] and his achievements and more of the brotherly kind where it's do you remember that time you

[00:10:41] crapped your own pants and had to ride a horse for 10 miles

[00:10:45] and then realizing that he's surrendered by all of Taro Naga's men who are not laughing at the jokes

[00:10:51] out there in the words expense because it pulls it back and goes oh I mean just how far you've come since that time.

[00:10:57] That's the dinner, our balls of sacking kind of thing as they're swinging away.

[00:11:03] I love this. I kind of did like just the exchange of stories even with Naga Kado

[00:11:12] it's a long time since he's seen his nephew and it's like your chin was as hell as your balls

[00:11:18] the last time I saw you all this.

[00:11:21] Naga Kado thinks this is great, talk more Uncle, give us all these stories.

[00:11:28] He's really excited actually that his uncle is here.

[00:11:31] This alliance is absolutely going to go really, really well.

[00:11:36] It's also, it is again about Naga Kado, whatever about his failures and faults as we've seen throughout this season

[00:11:42] he is very proud of his father and he always wants to please his father.

[00:11:47] He always understands that his father is someone that's achieved so much

[00:11:51] and when he hears stories about him winning his first battle of 12 years old you can tell

[00:11:55] in his mind he's going oh I wish I was just like my dad tell me masterfully.

[00:11:59] Absolutely, absolutely and I mean this is the tragedy of this episode.

[00:12:03] The Naga Kado is his need, his desire to emulate his father

[00:12:10] or be seen in a positive way by his father by doing something honorable, heroic

[00:12:16] at whatever that may be but also he has real true faith in what his father can do

[00:12:24] how his father is playing or deciding on his options of what to do.

[00:12:31] I think he sees this master tactician as his father, he understands that

[00:12:36] he's probably being brought up in the quarter Edo in Osaka with these tales

[00:12:43] of you know as we do get that kind of flashback to 40 years ago

[00:12:48] as you know the boy warlord who is victorious in battle

[00:12:53] and this is the same thing that has kind of been projected by Naga Kado himself

[00:13:00] onto him that he wants to be this warlord boy

[00:13:06] to become a man, this idea to sort of fulfill manhood

[00:13:12] but with honor dignity like his father has always done.

[00:13:17] Effectively Taranage is the classic example of you know the graceful swan

[00:13:22] but he is peddling hard and fast underneath the waterline

[00:13:28] not showing his maneuvering, his and I just say the third heart element

[00:13:35] his true desire towards and intentions of what he's going to do so I really like that.

[00:13:41] Absolutely but the thing with Naga Kado while he respects everything that his father is doing

[00:13:45] and his father is trying to teach him and trying to train him

[00:13:48] he just has absolutely no patience at all.

[00:13:52] He's not willing to sit back and take the time that would be required to execute a well thought plan

[00:13:57] which is further continually tells him this is what you need to do.

[00:14:01] You can't act rashly, you can't jump on a moment, you have to make decisions

[00:14:06] that will pay off for yourself in the future, play the long game effectively

[00:14:10] and that is not Naga Kado's strong point. Absolutely, absolutely.

[00:14:13] I think over just quickly as well before we go on to how the dinner develops really

[00:14:19] I did like some of the one of the side conversations between Ami speaking with Buntaro

[00:14:26] sort of in effect playing devil's advocate really a little here

[00:14:30] we'll talk about Mariko's service to Blackthorn.

[00:14:36] He knows that Kiku is being hired for a week and Jin kind of goes in a little bit of a flavor

[00:14:44] that whilst Blackthorn's gift of Kiku's services was granted that night he had eyes for someone else

[00:14:55] and Ami knows that it was deducted, that it was Mariko given she was ordered to be there as well.

[00:15:04] So I kind of just like him playing that devil's advocate with Buntaro

[00:15:10] and of course that plays out over this episode as well.

[00:15:14] Again, I really like Ami.

[00:15:16] I like this look at sort of in a sense, you know, kind of low level,

[00:15:22] and chief of the village, you know, nephew to a much more powerful uncle who in his own right is in service to Taranaga

[00:15:32] and I like how he has machinations as well but it's just for a different reason to pull him up the ladder

[00:15:40] and there is that conversation between him and Naga Kado in the hot spring

[00:15:46] which I just really really enjoyed.

[00:15:48] I love that kind of roofaleness of what's transpired because of their own machinations to become more than what they were at the start of this story.

[00:16:01] Exactly, and they are really really good.

[00:16:04] Yeah, Ami is grasping with both hands the opportunity to add here to become more powerful like his uncle.

[00:16:09] Like the comment from Naga Kado in the hot springs when Ami saying I wish you could just return to some more simple times

[00:16:15] because they know that the bad is coming effectively and Ami is going to go and wish we could go back to simpler times

[00:16:20] and Naga Kado is going to go when you were an unknown fishing village and nothing ever happened here.

[00:16:24] Is that what you're looking for?

[00:16:25] Because you don't seem to want to go back to those times.

[00:16:28] So Naga Kado understanding that while Ami is saying it wishes it was simpler times, he probably just means

[00:16:33] I don't want the threat of death over my head anymore.

[00:16:35] Exactly.

[00:16:36] It's really what he's waiting for and looking for because that comes quite quickly in the dinner here.

[00:16:41] After these stories and after not settling very well with Tsunaga's men, Novotatsu asks to have the negotiation now.

[00:16:48] They've had their wine, they've had their food, he's not willing to wait for the next day.

[00:16:51] He's too excited by the offer that could be made.

[00:16:54] Yeah, and he's very impatient.

[00:16:56] I love the fact that he will...

[00:17:00] What will I get for this alliance and for the use of my army?

[00:17:04] But it's all in the reveal that he knows the offer he's already accepted.

[00:17:11] Exactly.

[00:17:12] And he absolutely believes that whatever the proposal that comes from Tsunaga is not going to match that because he has been given one of the top seats at the top table in Japan.

[00:17:28] Yes, so I really, really enjoyed this kind of sleuthing and in a sense a bit of misdirection from Tsunaga's half-brother as well.

[00:17:39] Yeah, absolutely but he not only comes armed with the knowledge of the fact that he's the new regent and he's now working for Asido and he's going to take out Tsunaga and his army.

[00:17:49] That's the first kind of element of it.

[00:17:51] Tsunaga must surrender and be brought back to Asaka with him to answer for his effectively, his crimes to Asido.

[00:17:59] Not only that, Nagakaro must also commit Sepaku for killing Joezen with the cannons and his men.

[00:18:06] He has to commit Sepaku, he will die because of a long course arrival.

[00:18:11] But I love that fear don't accept it from Tsunaga to his son.

[00:18:17] I really, really thought that was a fantastic little moment to him.

[00:18:22] Again, it's protecting his son from just rushing in like you say, no kind of...

[00:18:29] There's no quick calculation being done in Nagakaro's mind.

[00:18:35] It's hand is out for it and if I don't... it's almost don't touch it, don't accept that envelope.

[00:18:45] It's like when the bailiffs come to your door to repossess your house, don't accept the envelope until you know the detail behind it.

[00:18:50] Take a second to take a breath.

[00:18:52] And Tsunaga says that he's going to give them an answer the following morning at sunrise

[00:18:59] because he's going to take his time to think about exactly how he's going to surrender, I guess.

[00:19:04] He's going to take that time to ponder and think about exactly what he wants to respond to.

[00:19:10] In many cases you kind of go because he's been outmaneuvered here.

[00:19:15] But also again, I think to the quality of the discussion between Jin and Tsunaga

[00:19:23] he doesn't know exactly possibly what is happening or what he's going to do

[00:19:29] but I think he is a word that it could go this route.

[00:19:35] I think to the time I get someone who plays out all the different scenarios

[00:19:39] he's always prepared in some way and is willing to take hold of Lady Look

[00:19:46] if it ever comes his way as well.

[00:19:48] Absolutely, absolutely.

[00:19:49] We're about to get there.

[00:19:50] Is there anything else about Novitatu you want to talk about before we move on to our second bushyda?

[00:19:54] I think he is just... he is very confident with what he has been offered by the council

[00:20:01] for him to go strolling into the heartland of his brother.

[00:20:06] Even with the destiny he has done me, certainly with that phallic cast.

[00:20:11] That's a man with confidence.

[00:20:14] Absolutely.

[00:20:15] And to play it so calmly I think.

[00:20:24] Yeah, it feels like he's coming along going not only have I gotten your regency position

[00:20:29] and I've taken that cease from you, Toranaga.

[00:20:31] I'm now going to take every single other thing.

[00:20:34] I'm going to take your son.

[00:20:35] I'm going to bring you back to surrender to Shida which means you will die

[00:20:39] and I'm going to take these lands from you as well.

[00:20:42] I'm going to take everything.

[00:20:43] He has that power and confidence about him.

[00:20:45] He walks into the town and we learn it as the episode goes on.

[00:20:49] So yeah, it's an interesting character to bring in here definitely.

[00:20:53] Definitely.

[00:20:54] But let us get onto our bushyda number two.

[00:20:56] Yes.

[00:20:57] Which is that Jean meets Toranaga?

[00:21:00] Yeah, yeah, this is the one you've already mentioned a few times but it's a really interesting

[00:21:04] discussion.

[00:21:05] She gets this meeting with Toranaga in exchange for a slightly reduced rate for Kiku for

[00:21:12] the week which Mariko arranged so that's how she gets this stick of time with Toranaga.

[00:21:16] It's understood that Toranaga won't have had much opportunity to meet with Jean in

[00:21:21] the past but she's asking for just some time of his the request that she has is really

[00:21:26] interesting.

[00:21:27] She's effectively saying that she wants to run a tea room in an area and actual region

[00:21:32] reserved for tea rooms in Edo which will allow the ladies of the will world to live out

[00:21:36] their lives because in normal society they are there for the pleasure of the clients

[00:21:41] to come into the tea rooms, they give them everything they give them their life, their

[00:21:44] youth, their beauty, everything about themselves.

[00:21:48] And once they are empties then they go off to die effectively and she wants to have

[00:21:54] a place where they can all live and live their life in Edo in Newten, the Toranaga

[00:21:59] set up.

[00:22:00] I really enjoy that she asks him to bring the willow world under his protection.

[00:22:07] It's almost professionalizing and the quarter-zams.

[00:22:11] Yes.

[00:22:12] She wants to form a guild of quarter-zams here.

[00:22:16] And Toranaga ultimately is thinking this is all a massive distraction from what effectively

[00:22:21] has just taken place the night before with his brother and that his time is very short

[00:22:27] but I love that Jean in effect it almost feels like she brings him around by giving him

[00:22:33] a little bit of a pep talk in some way.

[00:22:39] And this is it.

[00:22:40] It's like she is outside of his inner circle but in terms of where she's gotten, she is

[00:22:48] in the quarter-zam world at least in this region.

[00:22:52] Equivalent to Toranaga in the political and military world of his circles.

[00:22:56] It's just there in different circles and yes, it's like a bird of a feather really.

[00:23:02] There's a shared kind of understanding of how they got there.

[00:23:09] Different ways, different means but ultimately she says I started off in the Gusset and

[00:23:13] I've made it to having this stick of time with a very powerful member of the Council

[00:23:21] of Regents or used to be speaking here.

[00:23:24] And your fate is not sealed until it's done because in Toranaga saying I've got

[00:23:32] very short time here and my fate is I need to think this through.

[00:23:38] She can see that in a sense he's just almost trying to fall over off.

[00:23:43] Kind of, I think there's an interesting moment with Nagakado when he's saying stop bothering

[00:23:47] us, Jean.

[00:23:49] Can't you see we've got much more important things on Toranaga saying we don't know

[00:23:53] how many sticks of time we have left.

[00:23:55] We've made a promise to give her a stick of time.

[00:23:57] Let's do it right now.

[00:23:59] I think he's under playing at the whole time.

[00:24:01] He's trying to tell her my face is sealed.

[00:24:04] I'm giving you this time because hey, I'm going to be dead tomorrow anyway.

[00:24:07] So maybe you're wasting your time by talking to me because I can't do anything for you.

[00:24:13] Exactly.

[00:24:14] I'm not going to be in power in the future and she's saying I'm going to say I don't

[00:24:16] believe that Toranaga that I know would be someone that would give up without a plan.

[00:24:20] I believe you're putting on this front for everybody to tell them all that you are beaten

[00:24:25] that you are broken and you're a Dan but you've got something else underneath there.

[00:24:28] That's it.

[00:24:29] She says you are cunning.

[00:24:31] She ultimately knows that he knows, not the exactness of it but she knows that there

[00:24:37] was a cunningness there.

[00:24:40] Why would someone so cunning, so well prepared with a network of spies make such a mistake

[00:24:48] not to see his army coming even in a depleted state, not to have that knowledge?

[00:24:53] I that you allowed him to come here for this to play out.

[00:24:59] Yeah, you made it look like he was the parafford one coming into your turn at the Eurobeaten

[00:25:03] and you need everything from him.

[00:25:06] You made that happen.

[00:25:07] There's a reason behind us.

[00:25:08] You didn't make this massive.

[00:25:10] Exactly.

[00:25:11] And I love this in effectively two very different social classes but they're at the top of

[00:25:16] those respective and yeah, I think she says she's now the most wealthy course on in

[00:25:23] the history.

[00:25:24] It's all of this too.

[00:25:27] Because these people have been stopping off, these very powerful people have been stopping

[00:25:30] off in this fishing village with the tea room there.

[00:25:32] She has become this very wealthy lady from all of the visits that they've been getting

[00:25:36] for these very powerful men.

[00:25:38] I think just through this it felt like whilst not social equals, an equal of intellect

[00:25:46] was being exchanged here between two.

[00:25:49] And I think in a sense when I say a pet target, it was kind of like that someone would recognize

[00:25:56] that.

[00:25:57] That someone would be still asking of this favor for a new area in this newly built Edo

[00:26:08] all this purpose which was really, really good but also that just still that social

[00:26:14] difference but what would an old hall know?

[00:26:17] Absolutely.

[00:26:18] Because Dr. Nark is almost saying I think you've spoken out of turn here to some extent.

[00:26:23] I mean, it doesn't say that directly but she wants to make sure that he doesn't say

[00:26:26] something like that.

[00:26:27] Yeah.

[00:26:28] Yeah, you're absolutely right.

[00:26:29] And I suppose I think he's very impressed that she's aware of it but again quite worried

[00:26:34] that somebody could see through that he does have a plan here because nobody else seems

[00:26:37] to be seeing that so potentially he's going well, I hope she doesn't spill that I have

[00:26:42] another plan if she's worked it out.

[00:26:45] But importantly, later on we do learn that Toronaga has granted the requests and will give

[00:26:51] her land in Edo to do with what she wants so no matter what happens that has been signed

[00:26:56] off.

[00:26:57] Absolutely.

[00:26:58] Yeah.

[00:26:59] It was really, really good.

[00:27:00] So good.

[00:27:01] Like say, my working theory is because she is both similar and very different to Toronaga

[00:27:07] and is outside of his inner circle, you know, of honor of deference and so on.

[00:27:13] Yes, she can still play that role if she needs to but she has also scrapped her way to

[00:27:19] the top of her social circle.

[00:27:21] And in a sense as I say, they are birds of a feather just in very different circles.

[00:27:28] Yes.

[00:27:29] Yeah, but that is such a great scene between two.

[00:27:31] Love it.

[00:27:32] Absolutely love it.

[00:27:33] The one of the best scenes and just little, it's just so softly done.

[00:27:38] I mean you can almost say this feels like some kind of weird side scene but I think it

[00:27:45] really goes to the heart of Toronaga.

[00:27:49] Absolutely.

[00:27:50] And with that let's get on to Bouchido 3, our third major point from the episode.

[00:27:55] Buntaro wants John's head.

[00:27:58] We talked a tiny bit about this with the discussion at the dinner table with Omi.

[00:28:03] But it plays quite a big way later on in the episode.

[00:28:07] On the beach we see that John is trying to work any way to get his ship back as he has

[00:28:13] been since the beginning of the season.

[00:28:15] He's trying to get some way to get his ship back.

[00:28:16] He has that whole discussion even with Mariko going, if I got my ship back then we'll

[00:28:21] be able to leave here and we'll do something about because he's going to go and we'll

[00:28:24] wash though.

[00:28:25] What can you possibly do with your ship in this harbor basically?

[00:28:28] And as he stands there looking at his ship he sees the flag being raised of a shido on

[00:28:33] the ship, somebody else now has taken over and taken over control of his ship.

[00:28:37] And he meets a pretty angry Yabashiga who has been made to work with and work for at

[00:28:45] times at the engine since working side by side with Toronaga.

[00:28:50] At this time he's just been told the third thing that Nobotatsu came to the village

[00:28:54] to say, which was your offer of peace with a shido has been rejected by returning the

[00:29:02] head of his lead general.

[00:29:04] So he goes down to the beach, looks over at John and goes, maybe it's time for you

[00:29:11] to give up the pretense that you are a member of the Japanese society just because you stand

[00:29:14] there wearing the swords pretending like you have this title of Hatomoto.

[00:29:19] Take out the swords and fight against me.

[00:29:21] And they have a small fight between the two of them with Buntaro looking on and Buntaro

[00:29:25] suddenly realizes he has a moment here that he may be able to take the head of John Black

[00:29:30] Thorne.

[00:29:31] That's a really brutal moment as he kicks to the ground by Yabashiga and then Buntaro

[00:29:37] sticks his sword to John Black Thorne's throat and John again frustrated that he doesn't

[00:29:42] find a way out here says to Buntaro, do it, take my head.

[00:29:48] No, absolutely.

[00:29:49] I really like the thing with Yabashiga and John Black Thorne here because all of Tornagas

[00:29:58] allies they've just seen these different titles, gifts being sort of poured onto this barbarian

[00:30:07] interloper in John Black Thorne.

[00:30:10] But equally at the start we have Black Thorne asking about his role in Crimson Sky with Tornagga

[00:30:17] who has no decision made and really is quite dismissive of him.

[00:30:21] And Black Thorne is like, I don't understand you do all these gifts effectively mean nothing

[00:30:27] and that could possibly be the case that Tornagga is so powerful, is so wealthy in terms

[00:30:35] of his lands and so on that he is giving them to elicit a response here.

[00:30:42] So he isn't willing to let him sort of just get his ship and be the artillery fire from

[00:30:50] the harbor on the side.

[00:30:52] And I think this is all kind of just these differences, even with him and Yabashiga on

[00:31:01] the beach.

[00:31:02] He's like, I'm a pilot of a ship, I don't know one end of the sword from another.

[00:31:08] Hold it properly.

[00:31:09] Oh, too hand it.

[00:31:10] Okay.

[00:31:11] And there's that balance of not understanding everything that Yabashiga is saying to him.

[00:31:16] He doesn't understand all Japanese here, but he's kind of being told enough to understand

[00:31:22] that Yabashiga wants to go mano a mano against him.

[00:31:26] Yabashiga is saying to him, another one that John doesn't understand about you wish

[00:31:30] you were killed just like your crewmate, Boyle and Burnt, the one that happened in the

[00:31:34] first episode.

[00:31:36] And then he just kind of goes, I don't even know why I'm talking to you.

[00:31:40] And then they have their fight, but it just bleed into Bontaro.

[00:31:43] Of course I said the sword to the throat, but later we see him going directly to Tornaga

[00:31:48] in absolute anger saying the big issue that he has here is how medical and John Blackthorn

[00:31:56] interact the way that John Blackthorn looks at his wife is why he wants to take his head

[00:32:01] and quite a conversation here with Tornaga worries where Tornaga is saying to him, but

[00:32:06] if you blame the engine then you must also blame Mariko.

[00:32:10] She must be a fault if you feel there's something happened between the two of us.

[00:32:13] And she is your wife and you are able to do whatever you want to your wife, you don't

[00:32:18] need permission.

[00:32:19] You know effectively saying if you want to take the head of the engine you must also take

[00:32:25] the head of your wife which he doesn't want to do here.

[00:32:28] And conversely if he takes her head he must take John's head as well.

[00:32:33] So it's but it's not something he is putting up on the plate as a justification to this

[00:32:40] request to Tornaga.

[00:32:43] And it's actually in a sense almost to put down them and Mariko says well I am in the

[00:32:48] service of my husband and will do whatever he asks.

[00:32:53] But he so he's kind of almost checkmate mated here a bit by Mariko saying well you can

[00:33:00] take my head if you want to because Buntaro knows that that is the one thing he can't

[00:33:07] do.

[00:33:08] That's why he has always denied her request to do that as part of the political maneuverings

[00:33:19] and machinations that has put her in this place as Buntaro's wife.

[00:33:27] And as a result of the death of her father and the sapaku of the rest of her family.

[00:33:34] So the one thing he wants to do which is to kill John Blackthorn is denied because he

[00:33:40] is bound not to take his wife's exact life.

[00:33:44] Until effectively her role in this jigsaw is is completed to some extent, you know however

[00:33:51] that plays out.

[00:33:52] So do you think that Buntaro has been denying her request to kill herself because she

[00:33:56] has a part to play in the future plan of Tornaga and that's the reason?

[00:34:00] I think so.

[00:34:01] I think that's partly it.

[00:34:03] Not to say that he knows the intricacies of that plan, he may have just been told you

[00:34:08] know she has to stay alive for as long as possible.

[00:34:12] And I think weirdly maybe there is some affection towards her underneath this gruff awful

[00:34:21] exterior of his.

[00:34:22] Yeah because that's what's going through my head.

[00:34:24] I know we had a piece of feedback in from Penny Lennox last week who was quoting the show

[00:34:28] on her Justin Marx where he made that comment about Buntaro truly loves Madako and we haven't

[00:34:34] seen that on screen.

[00:34:35] We were saying in our discussion last week in our feedback section that it's something

[00:34:39] you just don't see from him at all.

[00:34:40] He's brutal, he's angry, he's aggressive.

[00:34:43] But I do think this moment where he comes to Tornaga to tell him he wants John Blackthorn's

[00:34:48] hair is his absolute jealousy of the fact that he hasn't got that relationship with his wife

[00:34:53] and he believes that he should have that relationship with Marico.

[00:34:55] I do think in his really weird way now this is the first time we've seen on screen that

[00:35:01] Buntaro truly loves Marico.

[00:35:03] It's a creek in the door, you know, that's less than some lighting.

[00:35:07] And in a sense Marico in this moment has rejected it by saying but I am here to serve

[00:35:15] you I am yours and you can do effectively what you want.

[00:35:20] But that plays into what she wants.

[00:35:21] She wanted to die.

[00:35:22] I agree.

[00:35:23] It absolutely.

[00:35:24] That's the thing.

[00:35:25] But I think there is an element of the Harry Potter pig to slaughter here with Marico that

[00:35:29] Tornaga has, even though there is the affection there and so on and the trust and respect

[00:35:37] for her.

[00:35:38] I think there's that potential for that here because we know that he has something in mind

[00:35:45] for her.

[00:35:46] What that is?

[00:35:47] No, but you know in the sense of why he then asks for Marico to choose that loyalty, you

[00:35:55] know, between to him and trust what he is doing and what he is looking for and whether

[00:36:05] there is that loyalty to the barbarian of John Blackthulm and her feelings that have, you

[00:36:11] know, developed over this period.

[00:36:14] Yes, Tornaga is looking for absolute loyalty from her with that adage.

[00:36:17] But it should be said that Pataro walks away saying his words were just petty.

[00:36:22] He doesn't want Marico to die, but I suppose why I see his view of Marico is keeping her

[00:36:29] alive not allowing her to commit sapaku like she's wanted to since the moment they were

[00:36:33] married.

[00:36:34] To me, this feels like Buntaro saying if I keep her alive long enough, show her that I love

[00:36:38] her somehow whatever way that would be and he goes on the side of being a great warrior,

[00:36:43] a great member of Tornaga's court.

[00:36:46] If I show her that, then at some point we will be in love.

[00:36:49] Yeah.

[00:36:50] It's what it seems like.

[00:36:51] It's a completely wacko idea that he has.

[00:36:54] But I feel like this is the only moment I've seen so far of him believing that he loves

[00:36:59] his wife and wants to take away the person that is staring at her.

[00:37:04] But I don't know.

[00:37:05] Right.

[00:37:06] Well, it's also the fact that ultimately Marico here chooses Tornaga but she wants to

[00:37:11] be free.

[00:37:12] I mean, she pulls out a katana and effectively knocks it out of her hands like this is not

[00:37:16] the moment for this ritual and he won't allow it.

[00:37:22] It feels increasingly whatever he has planned as a result of the past histories between her

[00:37:31] father, Achieba's father and all the politics in between.

[00:37:36] There's a reason for Marico to have been paired with Buntaro, who is Hiromatsu's Sultana.

[00:37:44] There is a reason why he is denying this request for death each time in the same way that Tornaga

[00:37:50] has knocked out the katana from her hands.

[00:37:53] It's just really, really interesting here.

[00:37:56] It is and I just feel that Buntaro is probably not close enough to know Tornaga's plan

[00:38:01] and he's been chosen as her husband because he's the type of person that will make sure

[00:38:05] she stays alive, not allow herself or commit subcult.

[00:38:11] I think that's where this leads and that moment where he goes, oh, I'm sorry, I spoke to

[00:38:16] you soon, a word's repassy and steps away.

[00:38:18] He's embarrassed by the idea that he's just gone to Tornaga over jealousy effectively.

[00:38:23] So I think that's where that sits but you're absolutely right.

[00:38:25] That conversation that Tornaga had with Marico last episode where he said there is a plan

[00:38:30] and there is a future for you.

[00:38:31] There is a plan for you.

[00:38:32] Just being underlined by the scene here where he's frustrated that there could be something

[00:38:37] there where John Blackthorns wants and needs and desires may take precedence over Loretta

[00:38:43] and Aga because she has a part to play in his plan.

[00:38:47] So I'd be interesting to see how that plays out in the next episode.

[00:38:51] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:38:52] Yeah.

[00:38:53] It's gone to Boshido number four.

[00:38:55] A short one here but a massive moment, a huge moment.

[00:38:58] Tornaga's answer to the ultimation that has been brought to us, then by Nobutatsu.

[00:39:04] I just like the pageantry of this list as well as everything else.

[00:39:08] Tornaga says he will give the answer the following morning at sunrise.

[00:39:12] He lines up with all of his generals all in their full regalia, each one of them.

[00:39:17] Their full war outfits to sit and listen to the answer of Tornaga that he gives to his

[00:39:23] half-brother.

[00:39:25] The answer that he gives is that he will submiss to the Shido's orders.

[00:39:29] He will allow himself to be taken back to Asaka and effectively face death here once again.

[00:39:37] It's very likely Mariko explains to John Blackthorn really around that if he goes back,

[00:39:41] he will die and at least half of his men will have to commit Sepaku because of their Lord

[00:39:46] and Master.

[00:39:47] So him dying.

[00:39:50] This is a huge moment.

[00:39:51] It is absolutely.

[00:39:52] It feels like he is crumpling to the will of council that is now headed by Asido but it's

[00:39:59] also crucially controlled by Ashiba.

[00:40:04] It's very soft like we've seen.

[00:40:07] Very soft in her direction of Ashiba.

[00:40:14] You can see it comes as a shock to his generals, certainly to his son.

[00:40:19] Absolutely.

[00:40:20] There didn't mention it though, interestingly because again if he submits and his son has

[00:40:28] been told to commit Sepaku for the murder of Joseph, that means he's also allowing his

[00:40:33] son to commit Sepaku, doesn't it?

[00:40:35] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:40:36] He doesn't answer that though I thought there would be a mention of that but he's effectively

[00:40:40] saying it's a no-wins scenario.

[00:40:41] The idea of the Crimson Sky will not happen.

[00:40:44] The Crimson Sky was the attack they were going to have on Asaka.

[00:40:47] Massive outright fight using the armies that he was amassing together after the Asaka

[00:40:53] and Asaka to save the people in save Japan.

[00:40:56] That won't happen there.

[00:40:57] He's submitting to the will of Asido and he is going to bend the knee effectively.

[00:41:03] While there is bad reactions from his generals who didn't believe that this was a decision

[00:41:07] that Torenaga would make, they always feel that something in the back pocket for Torenaga

[00:41:11] John is the one that reacts so significantly.

[00:41:14] Again, I think this is equally significant from John's perspective as it is from and

[00:41:22] I think it's equal to the other realization that Jin has or knowledge that innate connection

[00:41:31] as to how Torenaga is playing this.

[00:41:36] I think again, because he is the outsider, having he is the classic outsider from another country

[00:41:43] appearing in through to these customs and so on, he doesn't have that lifelong family

[00:41:56] sort of connections here with the Torenaga's.

[00:42:03] I think this is where...

[00:42:04] As he says, of course no one other than Mariko can understand him really.

[00:42:11] In fact, we are in front of everyone.

[00:42:15] Behold the master of trickering who is willing to lead all his vassals to death, pointing

[00:42:22] at them.

[00:42:23] Well yeah.

[00:42:24] They can't understand the first part of that but John makes sure they understand the

[00:42:28] last part of that.

[00:42:29] He points at them all and says, in Japanese you will all die.

[00:42:32] Every one of you will die because of this decision.

[00:42:36] John knows he's only alive here because of his alliance with Torenaga and because of

[00:42:40] working with Torenaga.

[00:42:41] Torenaga is kept in alive in situations where he couldn't possibly have been kept alive,

[00:42:46] you know, remember back when he was in Osaka, Torenaga put him in prison and got him back

[00:42:51] out and they escaped from Osaka together.

[00:42:54] John would not have survived there if it was up to Ashido.

[00:42:57] We know Ashido wanted to kill him back when they were there so here he is nailing his flag

[00:43:03] to the mast saying, I am partial Torenaga's army.

[00:43:06] You use me whatever way you want to use me.

[00:43:09] I am here for whatever fate decides for ourselves and was told I haven't even thought of a plan

[00:43:14] for you by Torenaga and here he is having effectively laid down the offer to do anything

[00:43:21] for Torenaga and they have been told Torenaga is going to give up.

[00:43:25] He's going to walk away.

[00:43:26] Don't worry about it.

[00:43:27] All my men are going to die probably including you.

[00:43:30] I didn't even have a decision for what I wanted to use you for in the war.

[00:43:34] Well it seems like because as he walks away just under his breath or he says, you know,

[00:43:40] crimson bloody horseshit, my crimson sky is a pile of horseshit.

[00:43:47] It is like this red herring or my post, you know, potentially and this notion of this

[00:43:54] huge full frontal attack on the wall, Sissy or of a sack and its castle.

[00:44:00] You know, and the simple fact of it is that Torenaga lost more than half of his army so

[00:44:06] how could they have done crimson sky on their own?

[00:44:10] And then the only other option they had was bringing in the half brother to join up and

[00:44:13] bring in his armies so they would have a greater army and maybe with the remnants of Torenaga's

[00:44:18] army and as half brother's army, maybe with those two combined they could have still

[00:44:23] killed them crimson sky.

[00:44:24] Bush, his half brother as an item and said he has to go and give himself up to a shita.

[00:44:29] So John kind of going hang on a second here you had this great plan but how could you

[00:44:32] ever possibly be carrying it out and you let us all along to stand by your side?

[00:44:38] And he's the only one that really stands up and does it.

[00:44:40] I think this is massively brave of John to go all the ways.

[00:44:44] Well kept going through my head was Fuji's husband back from episode one who stood up and

[00:44:50] stepped into the room because of the disrespect he felt like Torenaga was getting from some

[00:44:54] of the regions and he ended off having to commit subacu and kill his child.

[00:44:58] Fuji's only just a bit alive because of being saved by here on Matsu.

[00:45:05] And kept thinking of that and going look at John here standing up in the middle of all

[00:45:09] of the warlords of the region and telling them all they're all going to die because they're

[00:45:14] following Torenaga, that's a massively disrespectful thing to say in front of all these people.

[00:45:18] I know he's looked at as the barbarians, they're probably not going to put him to death for

[00:45:21] the slice there but it seemed like a massively brave thing to do in that room because someone's

[00:45:27] going to take offense to that or someone. Absolutely I think so.

[00:45:31] Yeah could take it in John the future.

[00:45:34] And then we have almost a post credit.

[00:45:37] I thought that's where the episode would end with John's Crimson Sky bullshit but it goes on

[00:45:44] to what is our Boshido 5. Nagakado's last stand.

[00:45:48] Yeah it's really interesting I think two things in the lead up to this you know

[00:45:52] I mentioned earlier about Omi and Nagakado in the hot springs,

[00:45:57] you know Omi lamenting about what's been lost you know to reach for more effectively

[00:46:04] but Nagakado wants to act, wants to do more and you know for glory and honor kind of thing

[00:46:11] he's overheard by his uncle you know who this sort of race for war for an honorable death

[00:46:20] and he you know he just kind of says death is but a lonely walk in the woods. I mean even earlier

[00:46:27] you know Torenaga is why you know says to his son, why is it people who have never been to war

[00:46:34] are the ones that are almost lustful for going into warfare.

[00:46:39] Yeah and there's another moment where Nagakado says to his uncle when he's waiting in the

[00:46:47] the springs he says to him, I hear that your first kill is better than the first time you

[00:46:52] pillow with the woman. And I think it's a really good representation. I really like this character

[00:46:57] in the show but he is that representation of the 16 year olds who goes to war in an army that

[00:47:02] accepts 18 year olds and falsifies their documents so they can go to war because they've been told

[00:47:07] that such an honorable thing to do. Of course much respect to armed forces that go around the world

[00:47:12] but at 16 year old should not be running out to join the armed forces they should not be falsifying

[00:47:16] documents there's a reason why you need to be old enough to make those decisions and Nagakado

[00:47:20] is that one who's been looking at all of these adventures in his mind and no matter how many of

[00:47:26] those older representatives of wartime factions that people like his father and his uncle and

[00:47:34] Yabishiga no matter how many of them tell him it is not all the stories that you've been told there's

[00:47:39] much more to it. No matter how many of them tell him that Nagakado wants to go out there and get his

[00:47:45] press kill and get his glorious legacy started. It's his position and it's what I was saying before

[00:47:52] about you know the tragedy of him is this look to his father all the time but never taking on

[00:47:59] board the caution or the wise words of his father and you know with with Nagakado as well there's

[00:48:09] also a more personal note here when we see him with Fuji you know and he's saying it should have

[00:48:14] been him that stood up to Shido with the insult towards his father not her husband. Now I should

[00:48:21] have been braver and he he ruse that but ultimately I don't think he would wanted to have

[00:48:29] done that. He knew that overstepping the mark into that council would have been Seppaku so

[00:48:36] you know he he tampered it but there's still that regret that it wasn't him that had that honorable

[00:48:43] death you know it is willingness to read put his hand out to reach for the letter that tells him

[00:48:49] to do it you know this is all the tragedy of Nagakado really I think. Absolutely and as we said

[00:48:58] regardless whether he stood up to Shido at the beginning of the season the fact that he blew up

[00:49:03] Joseph and his army with cannonballs has also led them to the same place as Fuji's husband

[00:49:08] and but in that conversation she tells him we do what we can when we can it's not bravery you take

[00:49:15] those choices in the moments yeah that you take them because as you can at that moment but if

[00:49:21] the timing's not right effectively there's no point in doing well I have something different but

[00:49:25] I do think that spurs him on to his choice. Absolutely we do what we can when we can and hope

[00:49:31] that it's enough yes yes and in a sense yes I completely agree this kind of spurs in on to taking

[00:49:38] masters effectively into his own hands by leading then the attack on the tea house where

[00:49:45] Nabataatsu is with Fuji and even if it's like coordinated with Fuji it seems to leave to let you know

[00:49:53] so I feel like yeah I think she knows she says to him after their bondage sex I guess that she

[00:50:00] has loads more toys available I'm just gonna go ahead and get them now you stay here

[00:50:06] and ultimately this moment leads to tragedy as you know he's chasing down

[00:50:13] Nagakado's fallen into the pond as he goes to make the killing blow on his uncle you know he slips

[00:50:23] on a rock which he has his uncles dressing down all gown honest falls back and effectively

[00:50:33] cracks his head open and kills himself and you do have that kind of then reflection from

[00:50:39] that hot spring to where no Batatsu says and whereas the beauty in this you know

[00:50:45] and in a sense it's quite ruffle as to what's happened and I completely shocking I mean this is

[00:50:52] the thing this is like okay so effectively the heir to Torinaga has just

[00:51:00] clumsily killed himself yeah and I'm presumably with no sanction from his father absolutely

[00:51:07] so you know it was just really really shocking like how is this going to change things yeah exactly

[00:51:15] and also looking at Nagakado's plan once again it's not a very good strategic plan anyway going

[00:51:23] after no Batatsu and killing him wouldn't solve any of the things that Torinaga has to face

[00:51:32] it wouldn't solve the fact that Ashido is calling him back to Asaka to answer for his crimes

[00:51:36] it wouldn't solve the fact that Nagakado has been told to commit Sepaku it just kills another person

[00:51:43] that's all it does if he had been successful somebody else would have been sent so once again no

[00:51:49] thinking of the long term just thinking with that idea of the story he's heard of the child yeah

[00:51:54] and that's it it's an awful way to go really shocking really surprising even though we've kind of

[00:52:01] seen this is the rashness of Nagakado right from the start um he it's an awful way to go but it's

[00:52:08] that's why the reaction of No Batatsu is so interesting he's not I don't know a happy about the fact

[00:52:15] that he survived or anything like that he's just looking at his nephew lying dead going there's no

[00:52:21] beauty in this death yeah and really you know it says see his final breath yeah as well like it's

[00:52:27] really tragic um you know a life lost too soon too early in that sense so you know really sort of

[00:52:40] big ending uh shocking ending really not I mean even if he had succeeded and killed

[00:52:47] no Batatsu you know I that would have been shocking absolutely would have gone after him yeah

[00:52:52] and succeeded so like just really interesting I was just saying almost epilogue of all this

[00:52:59] episode um really really good absolutely absolutely just one other quick thing I want to

[00:53:05] talk about it's kind of a note from the episode but it is the story of Taronaga's first battle

[00:53:10] because of the kind of think it's important ties in a little bit with this uh with this last point

[00:53:14] but it's the battle 46 years earlier where here at Matsu and Taronaga um I proclaimed the winners

[00:53:20] of the war effectively that's his first battle at the age of about 12 yeah um and it's it goes in

[00:53:27] it goes throughout the episode I think the reason why they tie it in throughout the episode because

[00:53:33] it goes to that concept of the stories told of war and how true or untrue they are

[00:53:38] um there's an entire army involved in Taronaga's battle of course but it's Taronaga that is

[00:53:44] proclaimed the winner of this war yeah the boy wall yeah um by his beaten foe here

[00:53:50] exactly uh uh uh minza Gucci yeah um who formally surrenders and then asks this 12 year old

[00:53:57] to be his second while he commits sepaku and the story has gone down the generation now 46 years it's

[00:54:04] been told and the story being told by his brother his his half brother at the dinner table is that

[00:54:10] this amazing 12 year old warlord chopped off the head of his enemy with one strike yet

[00:54:16] and we hear later with Hurobatzu and uh Taronaga that actually it was more like nine there was blood

[00:54:22] everywhere he was hacking out of for ages how did these stories get out there how did this become

[00:54:27] the pervading story that everybody tells exactly and Taronaga says you know who would pick a 12 year old

[00:54:35] boy in their second what an idiot yeah you know um but you can tell him again the reason why I think

[00:54:40] that story is you see the flashbacks to it a few times you hear it being told in different ways

[00:54:46] um through ace the episode I think the reason why it's there is because these are the types of stories

[00:54:52] that inspire someone like Nagakata these are the things that make Nagakata who's 16 or 17 to this

[00:54:58] stage kind of go well I'm five years behind my father who was so amazing in war that he was able

[00:55:03] to chop off his enemies head one one fell swoop I should be doing things like this by now

[00:55:09] it's the history of events by the the winner as well you know I mean interestingly

[00:55:16] you know it's the same as a lot of William Shakespeare's plays and how it you know builds up

[00:55:23] the tutors or the House of Lancaster which they you know to give the legitimacy to tales and stories

[00:55:32] you know certainly in terms of the word roses you know or and anything that links into those

[00:55:39] types of plays that Shakespeare wrote it basically said the Lancaster is one it was the House of

[00:55:45] Tutor and is you know it from that line they are the legitimate monot I mean it's all that feeding

[00:55:53] into that history the propaganda create a gun more the creating a legend creating and something that

[00:56:01] can't be challenged and if it is you can claim well a traitor you know betrayal and it's just

[00:56:09] really but you know Shakespeare to the masses so I it's that kind of similar thing I totally agree

[00:56:16] that's why it's there it's it's the difference between reality and what is used for political

[00:56:23] purposes ultimately or you know the legend of Taranaga yeah exactly exactly the only thing I

[00:56:31] have from the episode is just a bit Fuji and who do Matsu's discussion yeah uh who do Matsu brings

[00:56:36] back the ashes of her her husband and son two Fuji and Fuji tells uh who do Matsu that she's delighted

[00:56:44] to be reunited with them and once this war is over effectively she says when Taranaga loses I'll be

[00:56:50] able to take my own life and be with them be ashes with them as well which is a bit of a surprise

[00:56:58] was a massive surprise really for her Matsu again she was spared by Taranaga in his mind um

[00:57:05] she didn't have to commit sepaku because of the slice of her husband which would be the standard

[00:57:09] practice uh she's been kept alive and her Matsu is shocked to find that she wants to take her own

[00:57:15] life afterwards yeah but also very surprised that she's thinking that Taranaga's not going to win

[00:57:20] this war uh her Matsu is absolutely convinced regardless of what's going on here he's convinced

[00:57:25] his lord will win the war he's worked with him for as we saw 46 years right since his first battle so

[00:57:31] he's standing right by his side and I think there's a moment there with Fuji when he says that to her

[00:57:36] when he says you know do you believe our lord won't win she goes uh oh hang on a second

[00:57:40] he that's that's the right hand man that's the amount of arms of Taranaga I probably said the

[00:57:44] wrong thing here no I will live in glory after our lord Taranaga wins you know she suddenly changes

[00:57:49] her tune quite well quite quite quickly there so I thought that was quite an important moment for

[00:57:54] absolutely yeah as we've seen he's sacrificed our last to be side by side with Taranaga

[00:58:01] through eight this season and uh the idea that Fuji would be another person that would take

[00:58:05] her own life um if Taranaga loses just seems like a shock to him yeah absolutely and I guess

[00:58:11] that's it for the episode Taranaga here in an unwinnable situation has uh declared that that's it

[00:58:16] he's he's submission to the game so yeah yeah so will uh Fuji be right I guess or will uh

[00:58:23] who don't have super righteous or something um that we haven't learned so far as this

[00:58:27] old part of Taranaga's plan I think there was a plan what is there a plan now after Naga had to

[00:58:33] uh say that that's died be interesting I think uh I think Jin was right um that he had a plan

[00:58:40] but um it's interesting it will his plan still be available I guess are still at play

[00:58:46] action now that is seen as uh has died the way he has overall John what did you think of this episode

[00:58:52] I really loved uh this episode give it five old clever insightful holes out of five and

[00:58:59] I absolutely loved the sticking time between Jin and Taranaga I got you know that meeting

[00:59:08] of in a sense intellectual equals uh despite being from very different social

[00:59:15] spectrums and that formal ceremonial answer uh to um his half brother uh you know calling out

[00:59:24] this master of trickery Jin calling out his cunning um and it he wouldn't just leave it open

[00:59:32] like this to be doing effectively what he does which is to surrender and submit to the council

[00:59:40] and a sheedeck so I think there's still something there absolutely yeah um and I think uh you

[00:59:47] know it's just really great those moments I loved all the different through lines here with

[00:59:53] Buntaro americo with um John blackthorns sort of what am I doing here or how am I going to help

[01:00:01] to him sort of storming off talking about you know this crimson bloody horses uh you know it's

[01:00:08] all just a ruse in a sense and I guess another English word would be you know it's bollocks this

[01:00:16] is what's happening here is bollocks it's what you think it is effectively yeah and I it is

[01:00:22] interesting we did mention it in the description itself but it is interesting that the episode starts

[01:00:25] with John being dragged out like uh like a puppy almost to say his phrase saying I'm really happy

[01:00:32] to me is the blood relative of my lord master tornaga at the introduction of no batatsu says it all

[01:00:38] on Japanese you know it's so it's he comes in does his party check effectively and then sent away

[01:00:42] and here at the end he's standing in front of no batatsu in front of Lord Tarnaga saying everybody here

[01:00:48] is going to die this uh this uh decision of of tornaga is the worst decision you know so interestingly

[01:00:55] it went from the stars where he was being called you know a tamed barbarian to the end when he

[01:00:59] is effectively shagging like a barbarian to everybody saying you're all gonna die so absolutely

[01:01:04] um and I really like you know the tragedy of Nagakado here um as well as the more sort of

[01:01:12] roofal mess lamenting of almost melancholic of omni um but you know Nagakado is the one where

[01:01:20] you know he looks up to his father he wants to be the boy warlord the flashback that we see we see

[01:01:27] that that flashback you know is in a sense a a purified one that has been sort of nuanced and

[01:01:37] sort of in a sense made bloodless out of a time uh to you know talk up the power the the

[01:01:46] tactical ability of tornaga even as a as a child and Nagakado's need to always seem to be

[01:01:54] rushing into to fight to the battle to war and never listening to those people that caution

[01:02:02] against it i mean in a sense you know the context of this is that with the taiko it's been many hundreds

[01:02:09] of years of civil war in Japan tons of blood has been shed what you see with tornaga tornaga

[01:02:17] every sage is trying to limit him going on the field of battle to face his enemies to to circumvent

[01:02:26] it to come through a maca valian type approach to win through more peaceful methods or to limit

[01:02:36] the amount of fighting that there will be exactly and this goes against um and and this is opposite

[01:02:43] to how nagakado thinks of him in a sense and yet you know the tragedy is that in rushing into fight

[01:02:53] he he dies yeah but in no honorable or glorious way he slips on a stone and cracks his head open

[01:03:00] they go um and you know that poetic sort of reflection from his his uncle no batatsu of where

[01:03:11] is the beauty of this it's just so good i loved how this all interlaced and in in this episode so

[01:03:19] for me i give this five old clever and insightful hauls out of five absolutely um go gin yeah

[01:03:28] yep definitely agree with it that's a fantastic episode another another one which is so well written

[01:03:34] so well actors um an entire episode of people uh sitting around talking and it is another it could

[01:03:42] have been an entire battle episode i thought that's exactly what was happening i didn't realize

[01:03:48] until you got you know 40 years ago yeah i thought lec you know something's happened here

[01:03:53] there's a massive battle coming up but i think there's no it's no lesser for that um the the

[01:03:59] writing is so unpoint that i'm i'm drawn into every scene i cannot wait for chapter eight next week

[01:04:05] we're really looking forward to it we do have a little bit of feedback in on the last week's

[01:04:07] episode on chapter six of uh shogun dr bob phillips sent us a message on facebook who says

[01:04:14] the world is being shook up all the tentative circling the great bears has been replaced with the

[01:04:18] swiping of claws and the gnashing of jaws it has to be that the honorable winzash but will turn aga

[01:04:24] manage to make crimson sky with diamonds well canondal from the docks work the deeply intimate story of

[01:04:30] manico builds beautifully here too the flashbacks on the perfectly linear positions set by the courses

[01:04:35] and after she signals her knowledge while black thorn is giving us the ability to see this world

[01:04:40] relegating him to mostly an excuse for us to observe balances of power in a way few shows about

[01:04:45] other cultures i've seen have ever done it's totally agree with you dr bob i think

[01:04:50] and the way they're using john black thorn thread this show it's just exceptional so it's so good

[01:04:56] to have him this way as himself trapped within a culture that he doesn't understand the times

[01:05:03] he's not our viewpoint character he's the one that we see in the background we get his experiences

[01:05:09] but we also get the experiences of all of the other characters we can see what's going on we can hear

[01:05:13] in their voices from what they're experiencing yeah it's not just john looking at them and explaining

[01:05:18] to us the audience at what's happening so i think it's really really good and the way they've

[01:05:23] used him in the show it's so different thankfully from so many other shows you take the exact same

[01:05:28] approach every time i'm the foreigner it's a fish out of a world story in another culture it's not

[01:05:34] it's not i'm here to save you yeah absolutely that's not going to happen with john when he's

[01:05:38] a he's calling the major to all all die under turonaga's rule absolutely i mean and totally agree

[01:05:45] dr bob it's the observation of japanese culture and i mean the whole scene in the tea room and

[01:05:52] i think you know when mariko and fuzhi are setting up the that deal with jinn for fuzhi to spend time

[01:06:03] with black thorn you know it's all just so well observed really interesting you know as i said at

[01:06:10] the time just like that close up of the kind of teacup you know and and the porcelain it's just like

[01:06:19] it's really fascinating and it's fantastically done absolutely absolutely thanks so much dr bob

[01:06:24] if you want to send any feedback into us you can email us to feedback at tvpodcastindustries.com or

[01:06:29] of course pop over to our facebook group at facebook.com slash groups slash tvpodcast industries

[01:06:35] join us there we have a spoiler post up for each episode as they come out each week

[01:06:40] we will be back next Tuesday without chat all about shogun chapter eight the abyss of life

[01:06:46] that's i'm already getting very deep yeah it does especially after of course turonaga

[01:06:50] listening to some of this episode sounds like it's going to be a tough watch i think so

[01:06:55] but cannot wait to see it as this series of shogun just keeps delivering and delivering so at

[01:07:05] thank you so much fellow warriors for joining us as always with our discussions around shogun

[01:07:11] until next week keep watching and of course keep listening speak to you next time bye bye