Shogun Chapter 4 The Eightfold Fence Podcast

[00:00:00] This is the Shogun Podcast on TV Podcast Industries

[00:00:03] This time we're talking about Shogun Chapter 4, The Eightfold Fence

[00:00:06] You agreed to train these men you remember?

[00:00:09] I do yes, for the return of my men and my ship

[00:00:12] Please be patient, Uncle Ntsuma

[00:00:14] As Hatamoto, you have been given a home, a generous salary of 240 Kukus a year

[00:00:20] I don't want any generous Kukus

[00:00:22] And Fuji-sama has a consort

[00:00:25] Well I'm sure she's very nice but I don't want a woman

[00:00:29] I wish to pillow her, pillow on her, or near her

[00:00:31] Do any damn pillowing talk

[00:00:33] In any case, she will look after your house and your servants and all your financial matters

[00:00:39] To refuse would be a terrible insult to our Lord

[00:00:43] I do refuse

[00:00:46] I refuse all of this

[00:00:48] I came here on the clear terms with Toronaga

[00:00:51] Sorry

[00:00:53] Toronaga-sama, now he's bloody vanished

[00:00:57] And I'm bloody prisoner all over again

[00:00:59] Just for better living, Hortes

[00:01:22] Welcome back fellow warriors to TV Podcast Industries

[00:01:25] We're back talking about Shogun Chapter 4, The Eightfold Fence

[00:01:29] I'm one of your hosts Derek

[00:01:30] Hello there fellow warriors

[00:01:32] I am your other host John

[00:01:34] Welcome back

[00:01:36] Oh yes excited to talk about the fourth episode of Shogun

[00:01:40] Going to war potentially by the end of this one

[00:01:43] I think so, yes

[00:01:45] Don't leave your kids unattended by the pool

[00:01:47] I guess is the motto on this one

[00:01:49] Yeah, absolutely

[00:01:51] This obviously is going to be our spoiler filled discussion about episode 4 of Shogun

[00:01:54] So hopefully you've watched the episode before listening to the podcast

[00:01:57] Hopefully giving you enough notice

[00:01:59] But if you haven't subscribed to the podcast please go over to TVPodcastIndustries.com

[00:02:02] We can subscribe to Shogun on its own

[00:02:05] Or you can subscribe to our main feed on TV Podcast Industries

[00:02:08] Or to any of the other podcasts that we have been talking about over the last 10 years of podcasting

[00:02:13] We'd also love to hear your thoughts about the episodes of Shogun

[00:02:16] Or again, any of the shows that we're covering

[00:02:18] You can email us to feedback at TVPodcastIndustries.com

[00:02:22] Or you can join us over on our Facebook group at Facebook.com

[00:02:25] Slash groups slash TV Podcast Industries

[00:02:28] Spoiler post up there for each of the episodes of Shogun

[00:02:30] So you can send us your feedback as you go through the episodes

[00:02:33] John let's go straight into Shogun Chapter 4

[00:02:36] The Eightfold Fence

[00:02:38] Yes, Derek, what are some of the details for this episode?

[00:02:43] Well, of course, again the show based on James Clavel's 1975 novel of the same name

[00:02:48] This episode was written by Emily Yoshida

[00:02:50] She is a staff writer on the show

[00:02:52] And previously, interestingly, she appeared in the excellent poker face

[00:02:56] With Natasha Lyonne and Ryan Johnson

[00:02:58] As an actress in the episode

[00:03:00] In episode 4 of the one about the rock band

[00:03:02] Excellent, yeah, that's really good

[00:03:04] Really good episode of poker face as well

[00:03:06] I think I've watched that one quite a few times

[00:03:07] It made me laugh a lot

[00:03:09] Great show from last year

[00:03:11] Yeah, Emily, in the writer's room for the season

[00:03:14] And this is her episode

[00:03:15] Very good

[00:03:16] Good stuff

[00:03:17] Now, this episode was directed by Frederick E. O. Toy

[00:03:20] Again, another director we've talked about many times before

[00:03:23] He directed the finale of the excellent Watchman

[00:03:26] And also directed episodes of The Walking Dead

[00:03:28] Westworld, The American Gods

[00:03:29] And two episodes of The Boys so far

[00:03:31] With another episode coming in season 4

[00:03:33] Okay, excellent stuff, yeah

[00:03:35] Lots of our favorite shows there

[00:03:37] Yes, definitely

[00:03:38] Yeah, gosh, Watchman seems a long time ago

[00:03:41] So good to have Frederick Toy back behind the camera

[00:03:47] Directing for this episode

[00:03:49] I just rewatched Watchman over Christmas

[00:03:51] Loved it even the sixth or seventh time through

[00:03:54] Yeah, absolutely

[00:03:55] That show, really, really good

[00:03:56] Let's see what they gave us with this episode

[00:03:59] John, do you want to give us your synopsis for

[00:04:01] Chapter 4 of Shogun, The Eightfold Fence

[00:04:04] Sure

[00:04:05] John Blackthorne and Mariko test their new alliance

[00:04:08] As they train Tarnaga's gun regiment for war

[00:04:12] Yabashige must navigate his past promises with Ishido

[00:04:16] When an old friend comes to the village

[00:04:20] Yes

[00:04:21] Mm-hmm

[00:04:22] Yeah, this was building up to war

[00:04:28] And I guess, ultimately, at a timing that maybe Tarnaga

[00:04:36] Is not comfortable with

[00:04:38] You know, he would not have wanted to have declared war

[00:04:42] At this moment

[00:04:43] Very gosh

[00:04:44] So I like that element to this episode for sure

[00:04:48] And I think the other side of this that I really, really enjoy

[00:04:53] Is, I think Yabashige for me is just so, so good

[00:04:58] But equally having his nephew back on screen

[00:05:02] Oh, yes

[00:05:03] In Koshige Ami

[00:05:05] I think he's really, really good

[00:05:07] I just love the portrayal here of him

[00:05:11] I love just how, you know

[00:05:15] Yabashige is continually surprised at how clever

[00:05:19] His brother's son actually is

[00:05:22] And that his, you know, his brother never told him this

[00:05:25] You know, we have that from an episode one

[00:05:27] Yeah

[00:05:28] We kind of see this, he doesn't really say it

[00:05:31] But he kind of expresses it again

[00:05:33] You know, when his nephew was giving him

[00:05:37] Loads of different ways out of the predicament

[00:05:41] That I said there in the synopsis

[00:05:43] About having to navigate sort of past promises

[00:05:46] To these two lords of the Council of Regents

[00:05:51] In Ishido and Torinaga

[00:05:54] So I loved this, I thought

[00:05:57] It was great being back in the village of Ajiro

[00:06:02] So I think we should get on to our Brashido

[00:06:07] Number one

[00:06:08] Absolutely, yeah

[00:06:09] Which is Ajiro prepares for the arrival of their lord

[00:06:14] Yes

[00:06:15] Torinaga, yes

[00:06:16] Torinaga or Yabashige

[00:06:18] I love how this kind of almost sort of

[00:06:22] Spins on a dime here

[00:06:25] With the faithful soldiers

[00:06:29] That come out to greet their lord

[00:06:32] Yabashige

[00:06:33] This is very impressive as well

[00:06:36] It's really cool seeing it from the ocean

[00:06:39] As the ship comes in

[00:06:40] You see that everybody lined up

[00:06:42] There's been lots of preparation done

[00:06:44] Yabashige, he wants to make a huge impression

[00:06:47] On their lord Torinaga as he comes

[00:06:50] But you're right

[00:06:51] I do think he also wants to make an impression

[00:06:53] On his uncle Yabashige

[00:06:54] To show how good a leader he is

[00:06:57] Again, we learned earlier on in the season

[00:06:59] He's only had the leadership of this village for a year

[00:07:02] So he wants to make big impressions

[00:07:04] When he has the opportunity to do so

[00:07:06] But I thought this was really impressive

[00:07:08] Seeing these legions of the army

[00:07:11] All shoes polished

[00:07:13] Yeah, exactly

[00:07:14] Come out in their warring finest

[00:07:17] And all very vocal for their lord Yabashige

[00:07:22] I love the fact that

[00:07:27] Around this kind of ceremonial almost

[00:07:30] Triumphant arrival by ship to

[00:07:34] Yabashige's or this village in Yabashige's fief

[00:07:39] We have not only does Torinaga inform Yabashige

[00:07:44] That he's handed his letter of resignation

[00:07:48] Which really puts the cat among the pigeons

[00:07:52] With a picture

[00:07:53] Because of all his different promises

[00:07:55] And why his rationale for doing them all

[00:08:00] You have his son lord Nagakado

[00:08:05] Saying giving concern that an ally with ambitions

[00:08:09] Is no ally at all

[00:08:11] Like there is a sense that they're coming into the lion's den here

[00:08:15] Absolutely

[00:08:16] And yes, Torinaga has jumped out of the frying pan

[00:08:22] Into the fire to some degree

[00:08:25] And certainly when they see all these cheering soldiers

[00:08:31] Cheering their lord's name Yabashige

[00:08:34] I love then that Torinaga switches this round

[00:08:38] Almost at the discomfort of Yabashige

[00:08:42] Absolutely, yeah

[00:08:44] Yabashige is not happy

[00:08:46] How he is bowing to these soldiers for their loyalty

[00:08:49] And their defence of Japan

[00:08:52] You know, it's such a good moment here in this opening

[00:08:57] I absolutely loved it

[00:08:59] Totally

[00:09:01] I would guess that this is a very rare occurrence

[00:09:04] Certainly having your lord coming to your hometown

[00:09:08] That's very rare

[00:09:10] But I think him actually bowing to them

[00:09:13] Is something that none of them would have expected

[00:09:15] This show of deference almost

[00:09:17] To the army

[00:09:18] This show of respect to them

[00:09:21] You would expect them all to bow to him

[00:09:23] But him bowing to them is quite a major moment

[00:09:26] And it kind of calls back to episode three

[00:09:28] When we lost Bontaro, the husband of Mariko

[00:09:31] Him bowing to this soldier about to give his life

[00:09:35] To save his lord

[00:09:37] That's what he's doing with this army

[00:09:38] And they're taking that moment of respect

[00:09:39] And it turns them all into cheering his name

[00:09:42] So it really is so great

[00:09:44] But much longer than Yabashige

[00:09:46] And sort of you see the kind of

[00:09:48] Okay, he can stop now

[00:09:50] Almost look on his face

[00:09:52] And even with their loyalty

[00:09:53] Yeah, and also his nephew

[00:09:55] I love that's kind of what's intertwined in this

[00:09:58] Is also a sake joke

[00:10:02] By his nephew's mom

[00:10:05] Koshige's mother, I think

[00:10:07] Yeah, it is

[00:10:08] And I think, you know

[00:10:11] Like from episode one

[00:10:14] It's the first time in two years

[00:10:17] That lord Yabashige has come to this

[00:10:21] Fishing village

[00:10:23] Exactly

[00:10:24] Where his brother used to sort of look over

[00:10:26] And lead the village of Ajiro

[00:10:30] And now, you know

[00:10:32] They have the messenger to say that

[00:10:34] Not only is he coming back again

[00:10:36] After such a short period

[00:10:38] But he is bringing the lord's kanto

[00:10:41] Lord Taranaga

[00:10:43] And someone even higher up

[00:10:46] In the hierarchy

[00:10:48] And I love the fact that, you know

[00:10:51] As he arrives, he goes

[00:10:53] I should have gotten the better sake, you know

[00:10:56] And then as soon as he arrives

[00:10:58] He also leaves again

[00:11:00] Not telling Yabashige his exact plans

[00:11:04] And so heads off back on the boat

[00:11:08] And as everyone else is going back

[00:11:14] Into the village, he just goes

[00:11:16] I should have bought the cheap stuff

[00:11:18] I knew I should have bought the cheap stuff

[00:11:20] And so I like that little joke

[00:11:23] Growing through this moment

[00:11:25] Absolutely

[00:11:26] But it also smacks of a lot of those

[00:11:28] Kind of state visits or presidential visits

[00:11:30] If you're in Ireland or, I guess

[00:11:32] Royal visits when you're in countries

[00:11:34] People prepare for them for weeks

[00:11:36] In advance, making sure everything is

[00:11:38] Absolutely perfect

[00:11:39] You see them at the beginning of this episode

[00:11:41] Cleaning up everything in the entire village

[00:11:43] To make everything look spick and span

[00:11:45] And so he gets about three feet on to the beach

[00:11:48] And then before you know it

[00:11:49] He's already in the boat back out to his ship

[00:11:52] Before anybody knows

[00:11:53] Even John is completely surprised

[00:11:55] By this turnaround from Turanaga

[00:11:57] Leaving him behind, you know

[00:11:59] But I really like that moment

[00:12:01] It echoes something in me that I remember

[00:12:04] From all those kind of state visits

[00:12:06] That we've seen over the years

[00:12:09] And also around this on the ship

[00:12:11] We kind of get a little bit about

[00:12:13] John's new position as Hatemoto

[00:12:15] And the respect it's going to get

[00:12:17] The fact that he's arriving back at this village

[00:12:19] A Giro, which was where he landed first

[00:12:21] With his ship and he got his men taken from

[00:12:23] And the ship taken from was treated really poorly

[00:12:26] Was taken as a prisoner

[00:12:28] And now he's coming back almost in glory

[00:12:30] They're being told that he has to be treated

[00:12:32] With the utmost respect

[00:12:34] He has to have a house set up for him

[00:12:36] He has to have a whole entourage

[00:12:38] Of people around him

[00:12:39] A whole household set up around him

[00:12:42] We talk a little bit about that

[00:12:44] That's actually...

[00:12:45] That could be our Bushido number two

[00:12:47] Absolutely, I think the Hatemoto's household

[00:12:50] I have to say I loved Mariko

[00:12:54] And Fujiko's chat

[00:12:57] You know Fujiko

[00:12:59] Who is kind of asking

[00:13:02] Why does she deserve all this really bad look

[00:13:06] You know, she's lost her husband

[00:13:09] And her son

[00:13:11] And now she's being asked to be the consort

[00:13:15] To this barbarian

[00:13:17] And she's like, I just want to be a nun

[00:13:19] And we have Mariko saying

[00:13:22] This is how your lord sees you

[00:13:25] Of remaining in service

[00:13:28] And having a meaningful life

[00:13:33] And carrying on

[00:13:35] In a position of meaning

[00:13:37] And of elevation

[00:13:40] In service

[00:13:42] So you know, there's all of this

[00:13:44] As you say

[00:13:45] He's back at the same village where he had arrived

[00:13:48] And was locked in a cell

[00:13:52] Had fish guts poured over him

[00:13:55] Was effectively urinated on by Koshigi

[00:14:01] Only to now have a household

[00:14:05] And a house prepared for him

[00:14:08] That he now has to go and inspect

[00:14:11] It's in this moment of going to inspect the house

[00:14:14] That he actually realizes his place

[00:14:18] He feels he misunderstood

[00:14:21] In fact, Tori and I

[00:14:23] Doesn't actually answer him

[00:14:26] John Blackthorn is

[00:14:28] Yes, I will lead these

[00:14:30] But I want my ship back

[00:14:32] I want my sailors back

[00:14:34] But he gets new confirmation

[00:14:37] Of this side of the deal

[00:14:40] And he suddenly realizes

[00:14:42] That he's not allowed to just go out to his ship

[00:14:46] He has to inspect his household instead

[00:14:49] And he realizes that he is still controlled

[00:14:53] And his face is still determined by Taranaga

[00:14:57] Even though he's not there

[00:14:59] He is a prisoner again

[00:15:01] For this period of six months to train

[00:15:05] This new regiment

[00:15:07] But as he says, just with better living quarters

[00:15:10] Love that life from John

[00:15:12] Really good

[00:15:14] Description of a situation

[00:15:16] It is just being involved in these games

[00:15:19] That he feels like he's getting a handle on

[00:15:22] And then another curveball is being thrown at him

[00:15:25] And he doesn't want 240 cuckoos

[00:15:28] I like that too

[00:15:30] Mariko lays it out for him

[00:15:32] When he goes out to his ship

[00:15:34] She's the one that tells him

[00:15:36] No, no, your ship is Taranaga's

[00:15:39] Your men are Taranaga's

[00:15:41] And he will use them whatever way he wants

[00:15:43] There was no deal struck that you get them all back

[00:15:46] And you were now in control of them

[00:15:48] You were out of moto

[00:15:50] You get a household here

[00:15:52] In this village and you get treated with respect

[00:15:54] And you get better food effectively

[00:15:56] But yeah, he's right

[00:15:58] There was no deal struck that you get better

[00:16:01] And then the next day

[00:16:03] You get more and more

[00:16:05] And you get better

[00:16:07] This is the first time you're not getting enough

[00:16:10] To have a conversation with them

[00:16:12] And you get more and more

[00:16:14] And you get more and more

[00:16:16] And you get better

[00:16:18] And you get better

[00:16:20] And you get more and more

[00:16:22] And you get better

[00:16:24] And you get better

[00:16:26] Maybe she negotiated that with Mariko.

[00:16:28] Or is Mariko just going back up to Taranaga

[00:16:31] and saying as a polite way of giving Fuji less time,

[00:16:35] she's saying she'll give sex.

[00:16:37] I think it was a question of negotiating by both Mariko

[00:16:43] and Fuji in that Mariko possibly was saying one year

[00:16:49] in order to make sure that she got six months.

[00:16:52] But ultimately Fuji Ko was, no, I'll do six months.

[00:16:56] I actually kind of liked the jump where you will give him a year

[00:17:00] and then she goes to Taranaga, she'll give her six months.

[00:17:04] I don't care what you're saying.

[00:17:06] I will do six months with this barbarian.

[00:17:09] You know, you're getting the impression here

[00:17:12] that this household will not be one of peace.

[00:17:17] And that certainly Fuji is not relishing this role

[00:17:23] as his consort for this position of power.

[00:17:28] I think what I like about this is the ebb and flow

[00:17:31] of their relationship and how it develops

[00:17:34] over this episode actually.

[00:17:36] We have the moment where they're about to go

[00:17:39] to conduct the first set of training,

[00:17:45] foreign tactic training.

[00:17:47] And you have Yabashige's nephew, Kashegi,

[00:17:51] coming to the house and asking for John

[00:17:55] to give up his two pistol.

[00:17:58] And he will not do that.

[00:18:00] This is the guy that from his side

[00:18:05] insulted him, urinated on him, held him captive.

[00:18:10] So he's got no desire to be helpful with Kashegi.

[00:18:16] And I love the fact that you have with Fuji

[00:18:21] finding another way here where she will take,

[00:18:25] as his consort, his pistols off him so that

[00:18:29] effectively he's not taking them to the training.

[00:18:32] And then Kashegi looks to go and take them off her

[00:18:36] and she just points them at him and says,

[00:18:39] effectively no, you won't.

[00:18:41] Absolutely.

[00:18:42] It's such a great move from Fuji because

[00:18:46] she's saying, yes, it's almost a compromise here.

[00:18:49] John will not take his weapons,

[00:18:51] but you're not going to take them off me.

[00:18:53] That's what Mariko explains to John.

[00:18:55] She will protect them with her life

[00:18:58] because it's part of her contract effectively

[00:19:01] as consort for John that that's what she has to do.

[00:19:04] She will protect what needs to be protected

[00:19:06] in the household.

[00:19:08] And again, this is a great move

[00:19:11] and again, this kind of leads into the conversation

[00:19:13] that we're hearing throughout the episode

[00:19:15] between Mariko and John.

[00:19:17] All of these traditions, all of these things

[00:19:19] that you need to respect about our culture

[00:19:21] and how we interact with each other,

[00:19:26] they're all important.

[00:19:28] And in this moment here,

[00:19:29] Fuji is pretty much putting her foot down

[00:19:31] and saying, you have to respect this situation.

[00:19:33] Don't disrespect us.

[00:19:35] And exactly as you say, Kashegi is respecting that.

[00:19:38] Kashegi understands he can't take the guns off her.

[00:19:41] She knows the tradition.

[00:19:42] She knows that she has the right to keep them here.

[00:19:45] And they are still respecting his wishes

[00:19:47] that John doesn't carry guns with him to red the village.

[00:19:49] Yeah, exactly.

[00:19:51] And I think the really great thing is that

[00:19:55] these pistols become a moment of exchange

[00:19:58] between Fuji and John.

[00:20:01] John just says to Mariko,

[00:20:03] can you say to Fuji that I'm very grateful

[00:20:08] for what happened and that I have a gift for her?

[00:20:11] And he gives her one of his pistols.

[00:20:13] Yes, he does.

[00:20:14] As a present.

[00:20:16] And tells her trainer.

[00:20:18] And says she will train her.

[00:20:20] She's still looking at what am I going to do with this.

[00:20:22] And to reciprocate that,

[00:20:25] she goes off to get her family's katanas there

[00:20:31] because as a hatomoto,

[00:20:34] he should have swords at all times.

[00:20:37] And gives him those.

[00:20:41] Now again, he doesn't want those either

[00:20:44] but realizes that there is,

[00:20:47] you know, this is important for the honor of the household

[00:20:52] for her family.

[00:20:53] It's a gesture of respect,

[00:20:57] of reciprocating the gifts.

[00:21:00] And I just really like this moment.

[00:21:03] There's a few touches throughout here

[00:21:07] where John Blackville is only realizing that he's got a gardener

[00:21:11] or he stood on the moss

[00:21:14] and Mariko goes,

[00:21:17] you shouldn't stand on the moss,

[00:21:19] that's a sign of disrespect.

[00:21:21] Because it takes so long to grow

[00:21:23] and all these different cultural elements

[00:21:26] and then in the sort of reverse,

[00:21:28] he's there at breakfast with Fuji

[00:21:31] where he says,

[00:21:32] the rain is very beautiful today.

[00:21:35] I just thought it was a really funny line

[00:21:37] but you know, it's just kind of this polite conversation

[00:21:41] but he's almost trying to,

[00:21:43] because it's just literally rained

[00:21:45] all the time he's been there

[00:21:47] and it's in very wet this village.

[00:21:49] I thought it'd be reminding him of Britain.

[00:21:51] Yeah, exactly.

[00:21:52] And I think that's why, you know,

[00:21:54] just the phrase of the rain is very beautiful today

[00:21:57] and it seems like I don't know what else to say

[00:22:00] other than to say that the rain is very beautiful.

[00:22:03] And it's a very boring thing to do

[00:22:05] just to talk about the weather and the rain

[00:22:07] but I wonder if John is maybe trying to,

[00:22:09] trying to be a little bit more poetic

[00:22:11] when he talks.

[00:22:12] Maybe, yeah.

[00:22:13] Considering you know,

[00:22:14] the conversation they had about pillowing on the road

[00:22:16] when they were talking about pillowing on the road

[00:22:18] but the conversation they had about pillowing

[00:22:20] between him and Mariko,

[00:22:22] I wonder if he was just trying to,

[00:22:24] trying to add a little bit of poetic license

[00:22:26] to the description of the weather.

[00:22:27] Absolutely, absolutely.

[00:22:28] I think the other side of this household building

[00:22:31] for me is that Mariko is also has a room in his house.

[00:22:38] Yes, yep.

[00:22:39] And again, I think you know,

[00:22:42] there's some really interesting things here.

[00:22:44] Like it's a difficult situation for her

[00:22:47] because you know, I think she gives him

[00:22:50] certainly gifts of her wisdom.

[00:22:52] So I mean, the title of the episode

[00:22:54] where she describes to him the eight-fold fence,

[00:22:58] you know, that is built within themselves

[00:23:02] so that you can as an individual retreat behind it

[00:23:06] to protect yourself.

[00:23:07] This impenetrable wall, yeah.

[00:23:09] It's impenetrable so you don't give away things

[00:23:13] and anything that might compromise you.

[00:23:17] And I think this links to Rodriguez's conversation

[00:23:22] in episode one as they're coming into a Sarka harbour.

[00:23:26] As he says, you know, to John Blackthorne,

[00:23:30] what kind of man survives El Prosper's in this place

[00:23:34] and he talks about the three hearts.

[00:23:36] The one shows to the outside world

[00:23:39] but this eight-fold fence seems to be a development

[00:23:42] of that third heart that is only known to the person

[00:23:46] and this is the thing that hides it effectively.

[00:23:49] Exactly, yeah.

[00:23:50] And protects.

[00:23:52] So, you know, it was really well

[00:23:55] because it's like, you know, again, great line

[00:23:58] which says, you know, do not be fooled by our politeness

[00:24:01] or the bows or the maze of rituals.

[00:24:04] Behind it, we may be safe and alone

[00:24:07] so that we can do what we need to do for ourselves.

[00:24:11] Exactly.

[00:24:12] It links to Taranaga's philosophy

[00:24:15] of, you know, from what I said from the previous episode

[00:24:20] which he talks to his son, where, you know,

[00:24:22] in this life you only have yourself

[00:24:25] and all these kind of techniques

[00:24:27] are all around very much a personal protection

[00:24:32] of your thoughts, secrets, ideas, and so on.

[00:24:38] And I just thought really, really good

[00:24:40] this imparting of wisdom and yet at the same time,

[00:24:45] you know, there's that kind of intimacy of exchange

[00:24:49] but at the same time then she's very officious

[00:24:53] around recording everything that he teaches

[00:24:56] in the tactics for Taranaga

[00:24:59] and also in terms of how she approaches him

[00:25:03] knowing what he has written in his journals

[00:25:07] and what are his orders that have brought him to Japan

[00:25:11] and that presumably Taranaga has asked

[00:25:15] to get be translated to some degree by her

[00:25:20] but she knows about them, she's read them in his own hands.

[00:25:24] So there's this tension between them,

[00:25:26] there's also them both trying to understand the other better

[00:25:30] and it just plays out really, really nicely.

[00:25:35] I mean, even to the point where you have the hot pool scene

[00:25:40] and you have Blackthorn really trying to protect Mariko

[00:25:45] where she's trying to explain to him something of her past.

[00:25:51] It says, you know, I see a woman that does not owe me explanations

[00:25:55] about her family past and dishonour.

[00:25:58] I absolutely love this because he refers it back

[00:26:01] to a description she'd made about after a very smaller quake

[00:26:05] hit the town and she talks about, you know,

[00:26:07] the reason why we build our buildings the way they are

[00:26:09] is because we do need to take them down

[00:26:11] and put them back up very often

[00:26:13] and the way that he links that to the conversation with Mariko

[00:26:16] where he says, you know, if a house has been rebuilt

[00:26:19] many, many times and I come in and see it

[00:26:21] after it's been rebuilt 50 times

[00:26:23] I just see a rebuilt house.

[00:26:25] In other words, you don't need to tell me your past,

[00:26:27] you don't need to tell me how you get here.

[00:26:29] I see you as you, which is a really great moment.

[00:26:32] Absolutely.

[00:26:33] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:26:34] Yeah.

[00:26:35] And then he starts talking about London

[00:26:39] and what would happen if they were there

[00:26:42] and you can see when he starts saying about,

[00:26:46] you know, will you forget yourself,

[00:26:48] your troubles and your past

[00:26:49] and she is absolutely connecting into that notion

[00:26:53] that all her troubles can sort of add away

[00:26:57] away from this to some extent

[00:27:00] in terms of his description

[00:27:02] of what would happen if they were in London

[00:27:05] and what they would do.

[00:27:06] We're starting to see the start of their love story, really.

[00:27:08] Yeah, exactly.

[00:27:09] You know, we've seen, we've heard parts

[00:27:11] of the conversation you mentioned at earlier on

[00:27:13] about the, about his talk of his children

[00:27:16] that he hasn't seen them since they were born

[00:27:18] and the fact that he's been gone for over two years

[00:27:20] and that's because he wanted to get out into the world

[00:27:22] and see the freedom

[00:27:23] and he's showing her in this moment

[00:27:26] by the pool he's showing her the beauty of the horizon,

[00:27:29] beauty of what's out there.

[00:27:31] She's also, remember just lost her husband

[00:27:34] quite recently beforehand.

[00:27:35] Yeah, exactly.

[00:27:36] But a husband that didn't love her

[00:27:38] or at least treated her quite badly

[00:27:41] and here she is with John

[00:27:43] showing her a new world,

[00:27:45] giving her other options, other places,

[00:27:47] other things that she can see

[00:27:49] which I really enjoy.

[00:27:51] You know, this is part of the main story of Shogun.

[00:27:53] Not only is it about the battle of the five armies,

[00:27:55] but it's also this love story of John Blackthorn and Mariko.

[00:27:59] So, absolutely.

[00:28:01] Great to see the opening seeds of this I suppose.

[00:28:04] Yeah, and also that she seemingly,

[00:28:06] I mean again, it's something more to clarify

[00:28:10] with the podcast because it's that she gives him gifts

[00:28:15] of her wisdom, her company,

[00:28:18] but also this night visit.

[00:28:20] Yeah.

[00:28:21] Because it's kind of, to me it was her with him in his room

[00:28:26] but the next morning at breakfast with Fuji,

[00:28:29] it's almost pretending it's a courtesan

[00:28:33] and whether that's knowingly with Fuji

[00:28:36] that they're doing that.

[00:28:37] So, well nothing really happened.

[00:28:39] I sent a courtesan into your room as you know what she says.

[00:28:43] Yeah.

[00:28:44] But it certainly looked like it was her.

[00:28:47] Whether it's a throw Fuji off the scent,

[00:28:50] who knows, you know.

[00:28:52] Well, I'm guessing that we will know as the season goes on

[00:28:55] but as far as the end of, by the end of episode four,

[00:28:58] I was absolutely convinced with Mariko playing a night visit

[00:29:02] and then they have a conversation the following day

[00:29:04] and you can see on John's face he's kind of,

[00:29:06] he seems like he's going,

[00:29:08] but it was you last night and then catches himself.

[00:29:10] Yeah?

[00:29:11] So, we know the courtesan in Arjun is a very important character

[00:29:15] who we'll actually talk about her in a moment

[00:29:17] but it just didn't look like her

[00:29:19] and it seemed to play that it was Mariko

[00:29:22] and she's covering it up.

[00:29:24] But I just don't know, even after watching the episode

[00:29:26] a few times now, I just couldn't tell for definite

[00:29:29] was it, was it Mariko or not.

[00:29:31] Yeah.

[00:29:32] Part of that is because writing notes on the show

[00:29:34] that has lots of subtitles on it means we're looking away

[00:29:36] and we're trying to catch every single thing

[00:29:38] but we can't pause every single second.

[00:29:40] And so hopefully we'll be able to watch it one more time

[00:29:44] and just check and see if it would be Mariko or not.

[00:29:46] Well, I certainly thought it was.

[00:29:48] Yeah.

[00:29:49] I thought it was and then they described to the following day

[00:29:51] and I'm going, okay.

[00:29:52] But I think that's the way of deflecting,

[00:29:55] you know, and saying, no actually that didn't happen.

[00:30:00] We don't talk about that again, kind of thing

[00:30:04] or it's to throw Fuji off the scent say,

[00:30:08] no, I sent a courtesan in.

[00:30:10] And that's what I thought.

[00:30:11] Yeah, I thought they were just throwing her off the scent

[00:30:13] but the courtesan is a very important character

[00:30:15] in this village.

[00:30:17] Absolutely.

[00:30:18] Let's talk about her a bit in our Bushido number three,

[00:30:21] Yabushiga and his nephew, Koshiki and the courtesan.

[00:30:25] Yes.

[00:30:26] This is really good because I mean,

[00:30:29] for me, I really enjoyed this across this episode

[00:30:34] and at its heart is the fact that Yabushiga

[00:30:37] it finds himself in an impossible situation.

[00:30:42] You know, we get from Toranaga's son as mentioned earlier

[00:30:47] the concern that an ally with ambitions is no ally at all.

[00:30:52] But Yabushiga very quickly kind of realizing

[00:30:57] he's in an impossible situation.

[00:30:59] You know, in the same way as John Blackthorn,

[00:31:01] he is in some ways his face is being determined

[00:31:04] by a Toranaga here.

[00:31:06] But we have him and his nephew in a sense plotting.

[00:31:10] You know, Yabushiga is now going,

[00:31:12] I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place here

[00:31:15] in that Ishido thinks that I've betrayed him

[00:31:18] by having smuggled Toranaga out.

[00:31:22] And Toranaga is wary of him because of his knowledge

[00:31:27] that he effectively was allying himself with Ishizo.

[00:31:32] And you know, I'm now pledged to Toranaga's

[00:31:38] losing cause as he sees it.

[00:31:41] His nephew is almost like his rock.

[00:31:43] He is the one that can see how he can twist these things

[00:31:46] to his benefit or to his uncle's benefit.

[00:31:51] And in the way that he prepares for the big event

[00:31:55] of their arrival in the village

[00:31:58] and making sure that everyone is prepared,

[00:32:00] everything is cleaned, that shows off this village.

[00:32:03] He then begins to see how if they take control

[00:32:08] of the new regiment being taught these new tactics

[00:32:16] of the barbarian that that can ultimately belong,

[00:32:21] that knowledge, that power can belong to them.

[00:32:26] And weirdly, the reason why I put

[00:32:29] Koshigi's causes in this is that

[00:32:33] she's kind of there in the background

[00:32:36] and she's kind of really suspicious.

[00:32:38] I felt this from the first episode, Kiku.

[00:32:41] And we actually have this later were these,

[00:32:46] this plotting, this use of his ability to spot an advantage

[00:32:51] or to exploit a thin vein of opportunity

[00:32:57] for and on behalf of his lord and uncle,

[00:33:01] we're in Yabashigui.

[00:33:03] Suddenly she begins whispering ideas to him

[00:33:08] that he ultimately should be our leader

[00:33:13] and that he shouldn't be deferring to his uncle.

[00:33:18] That actually maybe he is the one

[00:33:21] that is clever enough to supersede him

[00:33:26] and should be using that for his own advantage,

[00:33:29] not for his uncle.

[00:33:31] And it should put him in a good light, not his uncle.

[00:33:34] And you get this lovely moment where Koshigi

[00:33:39] then is whispering and sowing doubt and division

[00:33:44] to an over-eager lord Nagakado,

[00:33:48] Toronaga's son who feels like he's not

[00:33:54] being brought into his father's world in a sense.

[00:34:00] He's been left at key decisions.

[00:34:02] He feels he should be there with the strategic

[00:34:05] tactical decision-making.

[00:34:08] And in some cases he has good ideas,

[00:34:13] but again it's just you have Koshigi then whispering

[00:34:19] this division and doubt to this young lord

[00:34:26] that we must act because we have Ishido's general has arrived

[00:34:32] which has put Yabashigui's position

[00:34:34] in an even more compromised position.

[00:34:37] He's absolutely worried.

[00:34:40] He can't believe he's in this impossible situation.

[00:34:44] It's either he's going to have to perform supeka

[00:34:48] or his belly is going to be slit anyway.

[00:34:51] Koshigi has this idea to help which is

[00:34:56] to put the danger on Yosem so he doesn't learn

[00:35:03] these new tactics.

[00:35:05] Absolutely and that's the important part about this really

[00:35:07] is that Koshigi is under the impression that effectively

[00:35:11] they were going to train up the army to potentially

[00:35:14] fight against Ishida in the future.

[00:35:17] If there was some kind of civil war they would have

[00:35:20] a trained army and with the arrival of his general

[00:35:23] to take back Yabashigui and Yabashigui offering

[00:35:26] to show him this army in training,

[00:35:29] the enemy is going to see all your plans.

[00:35:31] You need to take action right now is what he's saying

[00:35:34] to Nakakado.

[00:35:36] Exactly and Yabashigui though is saying this to Yosem

[00:35:41] in order to again try and undo

[00:35:47] what he feels Ishido thinks of him but he's

[00:35:50] betrayed Ishido so it's all become

[00:35:54] this kind of complex almost futile web

[00:35:59] for Yabashigui which Koshigi seemingly

[00:36:03] can cut through in terms of plans to kind of

[00:36:08] take him out of this impossible situation.

[00:36:12] Exactly, exactly saying to him effectively if

[00:36:14] Taranaga gets killed or now that he's given

[00:36:17] his resignation maybe you give them as a gift

[00:36:20] to Ishido.

[00:36:22] Maybe that's the way you seal your place

[00:36:24] and his in his court or below him the new

[00:36:27] Lord is by giving him the army as your gift

[00:36:31] but again seating it with Nakakado that this is

[00:36:34] your enemy you need to make sure your enemy

[00:36:36] doesn't see the tactics that you may be using

[00:36:38] against him.

[00:36:40] Now there's a feeling that if Taranaga was here

[00:36:44] he would have obviously made a very different

[00:36:46] decision than Nakakado makes in this episode

[00:36:50] and what's really been told to us about Nakakado

[00:36:53] is he doesn't have the experience and that's

[00:36:55] what Taranaga is trying to give him

[00:36:57] he's just trying to give him the experience

[00:36:59] who could possibly have the experience that

[00:37:01] Lord Taranaga has definitely not his very young

[00:37:04] son here really coming out for the first time

[00:37:07] on these types of missions.

[00:37:09] But as usual the youthful exuberance is there

[00:37:11] he wants to make a big impression on his father

[00:37:14] by making a big decision.

[00:37:16] Which Koshigi is exploiting and manipulating

[00:37:19] that vein you know where he says that

[00:37:22] the Lord should make this decision

[00:37:25] in place of Taranaga as he's not here

[00:37:28] and the interesting thing which

[00:37:31] you know

[00:37:33] which we'll certainly get to is

[00:37:35] there's a massive suggestion here that Koshigi

[00:37:38] given Kiku's whispers

[00:37:40] also hasn't told his uncle

[00:37:43] about how far he will

[00:37:46] will effectively take this.

[00:37:48] So I mean this is the case where

[00:37:51] has Japan gone to war

[00:37:54] over you know the ambition

[00:37:57] of two young men here.

[00:38:00] Over the next generation

[00:38:02] stepping up too early effectively yeah.

[00:38:04] One more thing we want to talk about before

[00:38:06] we get on to that final point about

[00:38:08] the war and what happens at the end of the episode

[00:38:11] is just talking about the warfare tactics

[00:38:14] so Bushido number four is our naval warfare tactics

[00:38:17] and yeah it's really interesting again

[00:38:20] following on from John's comment last episode

[00:38:22] where he was told that he was going to become

[00:38:25] the Hattamoto which is and he was going to train up the army

[00:38:28] for Taranaga and he's kind of gone well I'm a pilot

[00:38:30] I have no idea what tactics people use in war

[00:38:33] certainly not for grand armies

[00:38:35] and as he explains here you know he's

[00:38:37] there looking at this army in front of him going

[00:38:39] well I can teach them to

[00:38:41] I guess reload and clean their guns

[00:38:43] and target people using guns and they're going

[00:38:45] well the Portuguese brought us guns

[00:38:47] what seven or eight years ago was it something like that

[00:38:49] or seven or eight months ago?

[00:38:51] Yeah they know about.

[00:38:52] We know all about guns we've been using them

[00:38:54] so it's not about that it's tactics that the west might use

[00:38:56] that could allow us to get the edge on our

[00:38:59] and our opponents and they almost dismiss them

[00:39:02] until he tells them but you don't use

[00:39:05] your navy for warfare and maybe I could help you with that.

[00:39:08] Yeah it's effectively he's saying

[00:39:11] use the tactics of

[00:39:14] the navy for land based operations

[00:39:17] this idea of siege or bombardment from sea

[00:39:20] so he talks about the walls of Osaka

[00:39:23] and you know as many riflemen as it would take

[00:39:26] wouldn't be able to burst through those walls

[00:39:30] but my galley from the bay

[00:39:35] firing cannon would

[00:39:38] see to those walls.

[00:39:40] The other interesting thing that I think that you get here

[00:39:42] is that his cannons seem to be almost like

[00:39:46] a new model or an evolution of

[00:39:49] the technology of cannons that's happened

[00:39:52] and so they seem more accurate compared to

[00:39:56] the cannons that have been shown to them previously

[00:40:00] by the Portuguese.

[00:40:02] So we see here that they actually think he's mad

[00:40:06] putting the targets so far away

[00:40:12] but they're hitting them each time

[00:40:15] there's an accuracy there which they see then the potential of.

[00:40:19] Exactly I'm not too sure whether it's specifically the cannons

[00:40:23] or whether it's showing them how to use them properly

[00:40:26] because it feels like they disregarded the cannons.

[00:40:28] Yes absolutely.

[00:40:30] It's not something that in the past they've really used for warfare

[00:40:33] exactly as you said

[00:40:35] Yabashige says you know they're completely inaccurate

[00:40:38] they'll never hit a target and that's what

[00:40:41] John used to convince them he shows them him hitting

[00:40:44] three targets with no problem at all

[00:40:47] in fact hitting two targets straight through at one time

[00:40:50] with one cannonball so it really gets them going

[00:40:53] and gets them understanding this

[00:40:55] and throughout the passage of time here

[00:40:57] it seems like months go by as John trains up this army

[00:41:00] and using these naval tactics

[00:41:02] but I guess you know it's the real piece that he's underlining

[00:41:05] exactly as you say is the fact that they could go by sea

[00:41:08] and take out an entire fortress because

[00:41:11] fortresses aren't built to withstand these types of attacks

[00:41:14] because nobody's done it before right?

[00:41:16] So that's what he's going to give his benefit to them

[00:41:20] and you have the other type of shot being shown as well

[00:41:23] which causes wider damage

[00:41:25] the chains of between two cannonballs

[00:41:30] I can't remember the term that they use for them

[00:41:32] but it's a military one I think

[00:41:36] but I didn't see that damage should have looked up

[00:41:39] Yeah and I think ultimately I guess coming to our Bushido number five

[00:41:44] and that's what they use against Nabarra Yozm

[00:41:48] who has come here to bring Yabashige back to Osaka

[00:41:54] to face the consequence

[00:41:56] Yeah, yep

[00:41:58] Woof

[00:41:59] Interesting decision here

[00:42:01] and again I don't want to continually refer to Game of Thrones

[00:42:04] but I will

[00:42:05] This feels like the end of a Game of Thrones episode

[00:42:08] this moment when everything's looking okay

[00:42:11] you see Yabashige, you're not really on his side as much

[00:42:14] he's kind of a grey character

[00:42:16] he's a very charming charismatic kind of character in the show

[00:42:20] so you kind of want to see him succeed here

[00:42:22] and you think he might have got himself out of the situation

[00:42:25] showing off the new tactics that John has trained

[00:42:30] his army up with

[00:42:32] showing them off to Nabarra Yozm

[00:42:34] and Negikado is the one that's in charge of firing the cannons

[00:42:37] and he gets them turned around and fired straight on

[00:42:41] Nabarra Yozm's men

[00:42:43] and they are ripped apart completely

[00:42:45] the horses are ripped apart, the men are ripped apart

[00:42:47] and it's such a brutal moment I was saying before

[00:42:50] or just after we watched the episode I was saying

[00:42:52] you know I'm kind of not desensitized to this

[00:42:54] but I've seen a lot of things that are in TV shows

[00:42:58] a lot of battles, a lot of big brutal moments

[00:43:02] we've got the boys and covered on the podcast

[00:43:04] it's one of the most brutal shows out there

[00:43:06] but this moment when

[00:43:08] Negikado and his men come back up to kill all of Jozen's men

[00:43:12] who are lying on the ground and you see them

[00:43:14] cut in half, you see arms off, legs off

[00:43:17] they're absolutely decimated

[00:43:19] it's the flail shots that kind of rip through them

[00:43:22] I mean to an extent

[00:43:24] Negikado has shown Yozm

[00:43:27] the power of these tactics quite literally

[00:43:31] he has shown those tactics

[00:43:33] I don't think he's reporting anything back to a shoot at them

[00:43:35] well and Negikado finishes him off with his katana

[00:43:38] you know and Yozm says this is not the samurai way

[00:43:43] you know what have you done here

[00:43:47] like this is not how we would do it

[00:43:49] exactly

[00:43:50] and I love the fact that sort of smirking behind Yabashige

[00:43:54] is his nephew

[00:43:56] I love that shot

[00:43:58] yeah it's really good and you know his uncle is there

[00:44:01] again put back into an impossible situation

[00:44:05] in total shock about what's happened here

[00:44:07] and I don't think he knows that this is where it would go

[00:44:11] oh not at all

[00:44:12] don't think he knows about Koshige's poison in the air of Negikado

[00:44:19] exactly exactly

[00:44:21] so really really good

[00:44:23] and as Marika said this is war

[00:44:25] yeah exactly so they are a fantastic kind of ending

[00:44:29] really really puts everything on high alert

[00:44:33] can't wait for episode 5

[00:44:36] absolutely absolutely

[00:44:38] any notes from you Jon on the episode anything we haven't talked about that you wanted to mention

[00:44:42] no nothing from me Derek what about yourself

[00:44:45] just one thing that we didn't mention that I just thought was interesting

[00:44:48] and we talked a lot about Koshige trying to get a better position with his uncle

[00:44:52] Yabashige throughout the episode and you know

[00:44:54] obviously that's been one of our major points to talk about

[00:44:58] it was interesting in the arrival of Yabashige

[00:45:01] his discussion with his nephew

[00:45:03] first thing he asked him about was have you found that spy in the village

[00:45:06] that found out about the ship and about Jon Blackthorne

[00:45:09] and Koshige admits he hasn't been able to find the spy

[00:45:12] so I just thought it was interesting that again

[00:45:14] Yabashige is going if we're basically going to be hiding here training an army

[00:45:19] we don't want to have that spy here of Toranaga

[00:45:22] to get the information back to Toranaga

[00:45:24] so as you say playing lots of sides

[00:45:27] trying to find his best route through everything that's going on in his life here with Yabashige

[00:45:32] I don't know whether we'll find it especially after the way this episode ends

[00:45:36] well absolutely absolutely

[00:45:38] so as I say even Kiku

[00:45:40] while she's whispering these ideas to Koshige

[00:45:44] and like to what extent does that mean she's on his side

[00:45:49] or whether that is another plant here from one of the other lords on the council

[00:45:57] or even from Toranaga

[00:46:00] I mean this is really the web of disinformation

[00:46:07] it's huge or has potential to be huge here

[00:46:10] absolutely I'm really good

[00:46:12] she feels like a character we're definitely going to see a lot more of

[00:46:15] throughout the season

[00:46:17] but here to me that felt like her own whispers to Koshige

[00:46:21] being able to manipulate the leader of the village

[00:46:24] it's what it felt like to me I don't know whether she's working for anybody else

[00:46:27] it felt like she was working for herself

[00:46:29] there is a hint of that for sure definitely

[00:46:33] yeah excellent stuff yeah I mean for me as well

[00:46:36] this episode was five quality Saki's out of five

[00:46:43] I really enjoyed this

[00:46:45] not the cheap stuff

[00:46:47] I absolutely love Koshige his character here in this episode

[00:46:52] and his relationship with his uncle Yabashige

[00:46:55] I love that Nagakado

[00:46:59] and I guess his anxieties his fears of not being

[00:47:04] you know the great man

[00:47:06] being manipulated in this way

[00:47:09] I just loved all of that

[00:47:12] I love the development of Mariko and John's relationship

[00:47:18] as well as John's relationship with his unwilling consort

[00:47:22] at least to begin with in Fuji

[00:47:25] I really enjoyed seeing all these different elements come together in this episode

[00:47:33] so yeah five quality Saki's out of five

[00:47:37] fantastic let's get on some feedback about last week's chapter

[00:47:41] from our wonderful fellow warriors

[00:47:43] yes as I mentioned last week it's just me for the feedback sections

[00:47:47] for this couple of weeks because John's away

[00:47:49] but he will be back next week for the feedback

[00:47:51] and listening to the awesome thoughts of our wonderful fellow warriors as well

[00:47:55] but before we get into that just one bit of news about Shogun

[00:47:58] Disney has announced that the premiere had nine million views globally

[00:48:03] on Hulu and Disney Plus which you know is just such a huge number

[00:48:07] when myself and John thought about doing this in the podcast

[00:48:10] we were wondering whether this was going to be a niche show

[00:48:12] because obviously it's in Japanese and it's you know that's not always going to hit

[00:48:17] and land with an audience but it's effectively the biggest premiere on Hulu

[00:48:21] including the bear which is hugely critically acclaimed

[00:48:24] and has lots and lots of viewers as well as you may know

[00:48:27] but I just thought it was really interesting piece of news

[00:48:29] and hopefully everybody's tuning in for each episode

[00:48:32] and each episode of our podcast of course

[00:48:34] but let's get on to your feedback fellow warriors

[00:48:36] first up we have an email in from the wonderful Penny Ledox

[00:48:39] Penny says hi Derek and John and thank you for the podcast

[00:48:42] congratulations on a decade of podcasting

[00:48:45] like a lot of people our age I have fuzzy memories of the 1980 Shogun miniseries

[00:48:49] I remember my mother watching it in her bedroom

[00:48:51] and letting me watch with her until there was a hairy Kiri scene

[00:48:54] and she realised I was a tad young and sent me to bed

[00:48:57] the seat is of course permanently etched on my brain

[00:49:00] I picked the book up several times and read several chapters

[00:49:03] on various nice babysitting as a teenager but never finished it

[00:49:06] an artist one thing that really stood out for me in the 2024 production

[00:49:10] is the cinematography I'm not sure but it looks like they've been shooting on film

[00:49:13] not digital and using older lenses

[00:49:15] many scenes have a very 70s early 80s soft edged look

[00:49:19] this can be achieved by smearing Vaseline on the lens

[00:49:21] as long as you're okay with destroying your lens

[00:49:23] they're also using very shallow and precise steps of field

[00:49:26] such that often a character's face is in focus

[00:49:29] but their hair or clothing is soft and other characters are blurred

[00:49:32] I find the effect to be beautiful

[00:49:34] it also forces your eye to focus exactly where the director wants you to focus

[00:49:38] between that and the need to read subtitles

[00:49:40] this show is one of the only ones where I don't find myself fidgeting

[00:49:44] or playing with my phone when I watch

[00:49:46] I even found myself last night perched on the edge of my sofa

[00:49:49] leaning forward intently watching the escape from Osaka

[00:49:52] as a lawyer the political manoeuvring and technicalities are fascinating

[00:49:55] I have deep respect for Torinaga-sama

[00:49:58] and how thoughtful and measured he is

[00:50:00] his strategic use of the laws is brilliant

[00:50:03] and I think John Blackthorne agrees

[00:50:05] he seems extremely impressed

[00:50:07] keep up the amazing podcasting

[00:50:09] I always enjoy your coverage of the MCU and the boys etc

[00:50:11] looking forward to Invincible later this month

[00:50:13] Penny

[00:50:14] thank you so much Penny

[00:50:15] yeah, I think a lot of us of a certain age

[00:50:17] come to this with a little bit of knowledge of the 80s series

[00:50:20] interestingly there's a story about it recently

[00:50:22] that this is the reason why sushi restaurants are so popular in the US

[00:50:25] the viewership of Shogun was so high

[00:50:28] and the interest of Japanese culture after the original Shogun

[00:50:31] was so high that it led to a huge

[00:50:34] growth of Japanese restaurants all across the US

[00:50:37] I just thought that's fascinating as well

[00:50:40] but you're absolutely right, the cinematography

[00:50:42] the attention to detail in this show is just fabulous

[00:50:45] and what the directors are doing with the visuals

[00:50:48] on screen making your focus on every single moment

[00:50:51] that they want you to focus on

[00:50:52] you're totally right, this is absolutely a show

[00:50:54] that I can't pick up my phone during

[00:50:56] if anybody rings me during that time

[00:50:58] or if anybody sent me a text during that time

[00:51:00] and that's for at least an hour

[00:51:02] and yeah, one of the biggest things about the show

[00:51:04] definitely the political maneuvering

[00:51:06] it's one of the big things that makes this show so intriguing

[00:51:10] great stuff, thanks so much Penny for your email

[00:51:12] hopefully you'll hear from me later on in the season

[00:51:15] if you want to check out more from Penny

[00:51:16] she's currently doing a Buffy the Vampire Slayer

[00:51:19] rewatch podcast called Still Slaying

[00:51:21] over on our friends podcastica

[00:51:23] go check that out

[00:51:24] and I think she also should be kicking off her coverage

[00:51:27] of the excellent British comedy

[00:51:29] available on Hulu and Disney Plus

[00:51:31] called Extraordinary

[00:51:33] very funny adult comedy about a character

[00:51:36] that doesn't have superpowers

[00:51:37] when everybody around them has superpowers

[00:51:39] good laugh, really good coverage there

[00:51:41] from Penny and Greg as well

[00:51:43] so go check that out on podcastica too

[00:51:45] but thanks again Penny for your email

[00:51:47] next up we got an email in from Jimbo

[00:51:49] we're in again, thanks Jimbo

[00:51:50] he says hi Derek and John

[00:51:52] I'm really enjoying Shogun as well as your coverage

[00:51:54] which not only brings the usual mix of enthusiasm

[00:51:56] and insight about the show

[00:51:57] but also helps understand what is going on

[00:51:59] at a deeper level

[00:52:00] whilst the action and scenery is obviously fantastic

[00:52:03] this world is so layered

[00:52:05] it is great to really get inside the character

[00:52:07] minds and motivations

[00:52:08] and your podcast means I can get even more

[00:52:10] out of seeing the series on screen

[00:52:12] after the shipwrecks and world building

[00:52:14] of the first episode

[00:52:15] the second was slightly quieter

[00:52:17] but no less exciting

[00:52:18] with that stunning tracking shot

[00:52:20] of the assassination attempt

[00:52:21] a particular highlight

[00:52:22] and getting my hopes up for some full blown

[00:52:24] ninja iterations in future

[00:52:26] episode three though was breathless

[00:52:28] once it got going

[00:52:29] with that incredible fire arrow attack

[00:52:31] in the woods

[00:52:32] and particularly Mariko's kick ass work

[00:52:34] with Naginata

[00:52:35] followed by a nervy boat chase

[00:52:37] fully enough though

[00:52:38] my favourite bit was the

[00:52:39] lighter hearted diving scene at the end

[00:52:41] which added yet another layer of complexity

[00:52:43] to Torinaga's personality

[00:52:44] after so much seriousness

[00:52:46] a couple of other bits to mention

[00:52:48] firstly I love the attention to detail

[00:52:49] on how the Japanese ladies move

[00:52:51] with a sort of fast tiptoe

[00:52:53] that you can see in the wider shots

[00:52:55] but if you watch them in front of tracking shots

[00:52:57] and walking towards the camera

[00:52:58] they move so smoothly

[00:52:59] it almost looks like they're floating

[00:53:01] in a sort of Spike Lee dolly shot

[00:53:03] it is never mentioned yet in the show

[00:53:05] which makes me appreciate it

[00:53:06] even more as a background detail

[00:53:08] lastly a shout out to the great

[00:53:09] Yakuum Dalmeida

[00:53:11] who for me will always be the man

[00:53:13] who calls himself Bucco in Desperado

[00:53:15] although he has been in tons of films

[00:53:17] and shows for his cameo

[00:53:18] as the fellow presenter in episode two

[00:53:20] almost unrecognisable under that beard

[00:53:22] other than his distinctive voice

[00:53:24] I'm not sure if we will be back

[00:53:26] but great to see him there

[00:53:27] stealing the scene as always

[00:53:29] Sayonara Jimbo

[00:53:31] that's a funny one, yeah

[00:53:33] there's just so many character actors

[00:53:34] that are in this show

[00:53:35] that it's difficult to call them all

[00:53:36] later

[00:53:37] remember when we watched the episode

[00:53:38] first time

[00:53:39] it took me a while to pick up

[00:53:41] that it was Yakuum Dalmeida

[00:53:42] in that episode

[00:53:44] playing the priest

[00:53:46] in prison with John Blackthorn

[00:53:48] but yeah

[00:53:49] I had to go through

[00:53:50] hundreds of appearances on IMDB

[00:53:52] to find where I knew him from

[00:53:54] and of course Bucco in Desperado

[00:53:56] one of my favourite films in the 90s

[00:53:58] really really cool

[00:54:00] seeing him in here chewing up the scenery as always

[00:54:02] great stuff

[00:54:03] yeah a really good call out to that

[00:54:05] attention to detail about how the

[00:54:07] Japanese characters move

[00:54:09] there's been some great behind-the-scenes videos

[00:54:11] released on the Shogun channel

[00:54:13] one particularly goes into

[00:54:15] that walk that the ladies have to do

[00:54:17] wearing the kimono because it's so tight around them

[00:54:19] they only like they can only take small steps

[00:54:21] but it's fascinating some of the training

[00:54:23] that they had to go through to get everything

[00:54:25] period detailed to to the 1600s

[00:54:28] really really good stuff

[00:54:30] so much cool stuff in episode 3

[00:54:32] and the previous episodes as well

[00:54:34] but thanks so much for your email

[00:54:36] I'm glad you're liking the podcast too Jimbo

[00:54:37] this is absolutely something that we

[00:54:39] try and get as much detail as we can

[00:54:41] into every episode

[00:54:42] but of course getting your emails in

[00:54:44] about the episodes as well

[00:54:45] from our fellow warriors

[00:54:47] as a little more detail bits that we may not have picked up

[00:54:49] or made out of highlighted

[00:54:51] in our coverage of each episode

[00:54:53] let's hop on over to Facebook

[00:54:54] we got a message in from Jamie Lawton

[00:54:56] who says again blown away by this series

[00:54:58] by the scope and breath of the cinematic vision

[00:55:00] shown by the makers

[00:55:01] also in the original series and book

[00:55:03] the Black Ship captain is only the captain

[00:55:05] of the ship for one trip

[00:55:06] he is swayed into helping to run aga

[00:55:08] by the priests who excited by the offer

[00:55:10] of the church in Edo

[00:55:11] offer the captain the black ship captaincy

[00:55:13] and the prophets that come with that

[00:55:15] for the next year

[00:55:16] that's a really interesting change

[00:55:18] Jamie because the negotiation that goes on

[00:55:20] between Toro and aga and the black ship captain

[00:55:22] is that he going to invest in the silk trade

[00:55:25] and then he gets to keep 50% of the profit

[00:55:27] so I guess more proactive

[00:55:29] from Toro and aga and getting him more involved

[00:55:31] in convincing the black ship captain

[00:55:34] to help them out

[00:55:35] so that's quite an interesting change

[00:55:37] from the book isn't it

[00:55:38] I kind of like the change

[00:55:39] as I say it makes Toro and aga

[00:55:42] more active in his escape

[00:55:44] from the city

[00:55:46] and I guess it puts the church

[00:55:49] in a bit more shadow as to who side they're on

[00:55:52] we mentioned them saying they were going to pray

[00:55:54] on what could be the right decision

[00:55:56] rather than directly influencing the leaders

[00:55:58] on behalf of Toro and aga

[00:56:00] so that's an interesting change

[00:56:02] for the book thanks for that Jamie

[00:56:04] and finally Dr Bob Phillips

[00:56:05] sent in his thoughts on the last episode

[00:56:07] on episode 3 he says

[00:56:08] well didn't this have at all escaping in drag

[00:56:10] flaming arrow ambush

[00:56:12] flip-flopping on political alignments

[00:56:14] like a politician in the swing state

[00:56:16] lots of chicanery on the high seas

[00:56:18] well harbour and swimming bears

[00:56:20] wonder if we will find out next week

[00:56:22] who won the race

[00:56:23] and can we take a moment to appreciate

[00:56:25] the delightfully heroic act of Bontaro

[00:56:28] sacrificing himself for his lord

[00:56:30] Toro and aga and to allow the romantic

[00:56:32] B plot to move forward in an ethically easier way

[00:56:36] absolutely Dr Bob

[00:56:37] I think that scene with Bontaro

[00:56:39] at the docks is just absolutely fantastic

[00:56:42] as he holds off the

[00:56:44] oncoming army

[00:56:46] it's really really good and just seeing him

[00:56:48] go off into the distance battling on

[00:56:50] as his lord and his wife

[00:56:52] and the rest of

[00:56:54] Toro and aga's group get away from the docks

[00:56:56] I think it's just an absolutely amazingly

[00:56:58] shot scene really really good

[00:57:00] let it allow the romantic B plot

[00:57:02] move forward I guess so

[00:57:04] I guess we'll see how that plays out

[00:57:06] during the rest of the episodes

[00:57:08] to see how it may influence

[00:57:10] Mariko and John's

[00:57:12] possible romantic relationship as the episodes go on

[00:57:14] I guess that will be more clear

[00:57:16] later in the season

[00:57:18] Brilliant stuff thanks everybody for your feedback

[00:57:20] so far on Shogun I'm glad you're all enjoying it

[00:57:22] please keep emailing us into feedback

[00:57:24] at tvpodcastindustries.com

[00:57:26] or pop on over to our facebook group

[00:57:28] at facebook.com

[00:57:30] slash groups slash TV podcast industries

[00:57:32] you can share your thoughts on any of the

[00:57:34] spoiler posts that are up there

[00:57:36] for the episodes of Shogun

[00:57:38] just as the episode comes out

[00:57:40] so you can share your thoughts on there

[00:57:42] for the episodes

[00:57:44] we've got lots of other stuff up on TV podcast

[00:57:46] industries currently we're covering Star Wars

[00:57:48] The Bad Batch at the animated series

[00:57:50] it's set in the world of Star Wars of course

[00:57:52] which we've been covering each season

[00:57:54] one of the final season of The Bad Batch

[00:57:56] at the moment and also we'll be returning

[00:57:58] to much more adult animation

[00:58:00] with the return of Invincible Part 2

[00:58:02] which is coming this week

[00:58:04] on TV podcast industries

[00:58:06] really looking forward to that show

[00:58:08] if you've been watching things like The Boys with us

[00:58:10] on TV podcast industries and have them

[00:58:12] given Invincible a shot

[00:58:14] check it out it's from writer Robert Kirkman

[00:58:16] who is obviously behind the infamous now

[00:58:18] Walking Dead TV show

[00:58:20] this is his superhero animation show

[00:58:22] so very adult, very violent

[00:58:24] very brutal especially the second half

[00:58:26] of season 2

[00:58:28] so go check that out and hopefully you'll join us here

[00:58:30] on TV podcast industries for our coverage

[00:58:32] also to mention if you want to support the podcast

[00:58:34] you can of course support the podcast by sharing it

[00:58:36] with your friends

[00:58:38] just take that link and share it on any of your socials

[00:58:40] you can also support us by

[00:58:42] going over to patreon.com

[00:58:44] tvpodcastindustries

[00:58:46] every penny that you donate over there goes into

[00:58:48] the production of the podcast as well

[00:58:50] but you can also send us a one-off donation

[00:58:52] if you want to

[00:58:54] going through buymeacoffee.com

[00:58:56] tvpi

[00:58:58] but of course we absolutely appreciate

[00:59:00] every single one of you who's tuned in and listening into the podcast

[00:59:02] and sending in your feedback to us

[00:59:04] it's been great to hear from you

[00:59:06] but now back to myself and John on the past

[00:59:08] to say goodbye

[00:59:10] we will be back next week with our

[00:59:12] chat all about Shogun chapter

[00:59:14] 5 broken

[00:59:16] to the fist

[00:59:18] sounds painful

[00:59:20] it's going to be really interesting to see how this goes

[00:59:22] thanks so much for joining us

[00:59:24] talk to you next time

[00:59:26] yes thank you so much fellow warriors

[00:59:28] for joining us as always

[00:59:30] remember keep watching and

[00:59:32] keep listening bye