Shogun Chapter 5 Broken To The Fist Podcast

[00:00:00] This is the Shogun Podcast on TV Podcast Industries and we're talking about Shogun Chapter 5,

[00:00:06] broken to the fist. He would like to know about it while you have what in.

[00:00:12] Ah, well my war story's a sort of hole.

[00:00:16] Please listen, my husband is tired and has had a lot to drink, you must have it for story.

[00:00:24] But choose your words carefully.

[00:00:30] Welcome back fellow warriors. This is TV Podcast Industries, this is the Shogun Podcast and we are

[00:00:55] talking about Chapter 5 of the first season of Shogun, broken to the fist. I am one of your host

[00:01:02] John and I'm your other host Derek. Welcome back. Yes indeed it is moving on a pace now but it's not

[00:01:10] going quite as I guess Torinago would hope for. Yeah, no interesting developments here.

[00:01:19] It's seemingly going from a place of power to one where he is being undermined by

[00:01:26] natural forces as much as the machinations of what's going on in Asaka. Yeah, so yeah really

[00:01:34] good stuff. But fellow warriors if you are joining us for the first time, welcome and of course

[00:01:41] you can head on over to our website at tvpodcastindustries.com where you can subscribe to any good or evil

[00:01:47] podcast player of your choice. We also have our feedback section for each and every episode of Shogun.

[00:01:55] So if you want to give any thoughts, theories, observations or comments or indeed chastises over

[00:02:02] our pronunciation of these the names. And of course please don't do that. Please forgive us

[00:02:10] if you think we aren't pronouncing them right. But yes, you can send in any feedback to

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[00:02:25] can leave a message as well on our spoiler filled posts. Just go to facebook.com forward slash

[00:02:32] groups forward slash tv podcast industries. But I think we should get into our spoiler filled

[00:02:40] discussion of chapter five of Shogun broken to the fist. Derek, what are some of the episode details?

[00:02:48] Well, of course the show is based on the James Tervell 1975 novel of the same name Shogun

[00:02:54] and brought to the screen by Rachel Kondo and Justin Marx. Excellent stuff. Yeah, this episode was

[00:02:59] written by Matt Lambers who's written lots and lots of stuff. But important for our podcast because

[00:03:05] we always like to call things that they've done before. Matt Lambers wrote an episode of season two of

[00:03:09] invincible. Excellent stuff. Guess which one you wrote down? I don't know. He wrote in a bed six

[00:03:14] hours. I'm going to lose my virginity to a fish. The best named episode. That's invincible.

[00:03:19] Interesting. Which interestingly, the self-across are also covering on this very podcast right now.

[00:03:24] So I think this week actually we should be starting our coverage of invincible. It's amazing

[00:03:29] the talent and diversity of treatments that writers can get up to going from you know,

[00:03:36] 16th century or 17th century Japan through two and animated comic book series that's being

[00:03:45] treated. And certainly one with such irreference as well. Yes, both very ultra-violent I would say

[00:03:50] as a big connection between the two. I guess so. And just the difference in reverence. Very

[00:03:55] reverent here in the time of showroom. Yes, but less so very important. Yeah, it's all

[00:04:03] invincible. Particularly that episode. Good stuff. We talked about the director before.

[00:04:07] Frederic Toi who directed last week's episode and directed lots of shows that we've covered here

[00:04:11] on TV podcast industries including The Watchmen. Yeah, excellent stuff. So yes, another great line up

[00:04:20] behind the scenes here. Absolutely. Absolutely, John. Do you want to tell us what the game is with

[00:04:23] the Snops is for this episode of Shogun chapter five broken to the fist? Sure. Black Thorn and

[00:04:30] Mariko's struggles who contain the secret that could get them both killed while the Abyssinus

[00:04:36] searches for the spy who has betrayed his intentions to Lord Taurinaga. Short and sweet. It is

[00:04:43] that as they always are these are the official Snopsies from FX Nulu and not very representative

[00:04:49] of the episode either, I think. There's a lot happening in this for sure and it goes beyond just

[00:04:57] what the official Snopsies happens there but certainly in terms of the personal relationships

[00:05:04] happening in this wider political and conflict. Certainly they are two of the main ones. Where does

[00:05:12] Yabashigiri lie in all of this given his previous associations with Ashido and of course the rules

[00:05:21] and customs of court being thrown into doubt and indeed marriage in Japan being thrown into doubt

[00:05:29] by the arrival of Black Thorn and this relationship that he is cultivating or both him and Mariko are

[00:05:38] cultivating. I also think it might be a little simpler than Ash. I think the people who were at the

[00:05:42] Snopsies didn't want to reveal that Buntaro is still alive and returns in this episode because

[00:05:47] that's a bit of a shocking surprise if you haven't read the books. Indeed.

[00:05:50] Still alive because that throws the cat amongst the pigeons for everything that's been happening

[00:05:54] with Black Thorn and Mariko as well so I suppose you want to hide that right?

[00:06:00] That is the opening of this episode is the arrival of Lord Tornaga to a Giro and he

[00:06:09] happens to have this surprise guest with Buntaro still being alive and escaped the saga.

[00:06:16] Yeah, but one thing obviously what I confirm we were talking about on the last episode that we

[00:06:20] weren't 100% sure whether Mariko and John Black Thorn had slept together after we watched it back

[00:06:25] again one more time. I think it's pretty clear that that was Mariko and John Black Thorn that

[00:06:30] slept together and she was covering it up the following day saying a court has been sent over

[00:06:35] to take care of him. Yeah, but we were kind of going 100% sure. I know John was a little more

[00:06:41] sure than I was but it was just the way the scene played out that we just weren't sure when we

[00:06:45] came to record the podcast but it was pretty clear the next time we watched it.

[00:06:49] Yes, sir. I said the royal we is being employed here. It was yes. Yes.

[00:06:53] Well, what I feel you failed John that's where I last said.

[00:06:58] Well, let us get into our top Bishido's 4 chapter 5 of Shogun.

[00:07:06] On to Bishido number one it is the fallout of Yosen's murder, the general Bishido's general.

[00:07:15] We have the arrival back of Tornaga. We also have Buntaro joining him but there is

[00:07:21] the fallout of the killing and attack on Ashido's representative in general Yosen.

[00:07:32] This is kind of interesting I think on a number of different levels for me because

[00:07:38] I think in particular just the certainty from Tornaga that his son could not have come up with this

[00:07:47] idea. And it plays out with the Abashige as well and I just really enjoy these scenes

[00:07:56] where Tornaga is basically saying my son is not Lord Nagakado is not clever enough to think

[00:08:05] of such a plan. In a sense, the Abashige's game is up but not in a bad way. It's just Tornaga knows

[00:08:17] in a sense that his nephew was at play here. He can see that Yosen's nephew is actually quite an

[00:08:26] astute individual. And Tornaga can it's almost like he kind of understands Yosen's game

[00:08:34] just to play both sides. He still wants that out and while Yosen's nephew almost flows

[00:08:41] his nephew on me under the bus. Do you want him disciplined effectively asks.

[00:08:48] Tornaga says no because ultimately his nephew is engineered a situation where it could force

[00:08:57] his enemies to attack, to draw them out of the fortress that is a sacca. I just like the way

[00:09:06] Yosen is I was thinking the same thing. I'm immediately trying to save his own neck really here.

[00:09:15] So this fall out for Yosen is significant but also for Lord Nagakado as well who's reassigned

[00:09:26] from that canon regiment. Yeah, absolutely. He loses the control that he got in the last couple

[00:09:33] of episodes. So I don't understand. I guess but I think you're right. One of the best things about

[00:09:37] these scenes is that Tornaga once he is given a moment to just consider what's happening.

[00:09:42] What's happening? He's very easily put able to put the pieces together. He's like a very good

[00:09:48] detective in the situation. He's going to go. Okay, my son couldn't possibly do it. Who would be

[00:09:54] the person that would influence most yet? That's definitely the right person. Bush, how can I take

[00:09:59] this to my advantage? Maybe if it draws out a sheet of his army, it will actually make it easier

[00:10:04] for us to win against them because they won't be able to send their full forces because their full

[00:10:08] force has to protect a sacca. So really interesting conversation there. I also love to discussion

[00:10:14] about all men can be broken or really liked his description of that where he's saying all men can

[00:10:20] be broken just learn to fly them at the right game and they'll sometimes be the ones that will do

[00:10:25] the hunting for you, which I thought was a really interesting observation from Tornaga as well.

[00:10:31] Yeah, I mean this is where Tornaga's effectively having his annoyed conversation and

[00:10:38] discipling his son. I just kind of like how he uses that analogy of falconry. So I might easily

[00:10:48] attract it to the lure, such as his son. He easily fell into their trap.

[00:10:57] They're bidding. Yeah, yeah, yeah, Bashirga and his eager nephew, they're bidding. And yeah,

[00:11:04] as you say then this idea that the falcon has broken to an ultimate man's face in this case,

[00:11:11] Nagakado to Yabashiga's plans. Well, exactly. Yeah, really good.

[00:11:16] I'm what Tornaga is saying to him as if you learn these ways correctly, you could break anybody

[00:11:21] and make them do your hunting. Exactly. It's really good.

[00:11:25] Ami is given command of the artillery regiment. There is a part of me here that I feel that Tornaga

[00:11:32] has some respect here for Yabashiga's nephew. It might be a little bit of keeping friends close

[00:11:39] so you're adding. I think there was work. But it is kind of interesting and it's the

[00:11:44] political game of keeping him close, like you say, by giving him this command. So again,

[00:11:50] it's really a good aspect to it. Absolutely. You know, with Tornaga, he is saying to Yabashiga that

[00:12:00] you must return to Osaka that has been an order here. And what are you going to do?

[00:12:07] So Tornaga is saying you can go to Osaka if you want. But we've heard from Yabashiga about

[00:12:13] this idea that he's almost feels... And he's got no agency almost. He's trying to find it by doing

[00:12:21] all these different things. He feels like he's stuck in the middle and none of it is ever going to be

[00:12:27] sort of fruitful for him in any way. He's trying really hard, though. And the point is he feels like

[00:12:34] Tornaga's on the precipice here. If he falls, he doesn't want to be the one that falls with him.

[00:12:39] So he wants to have the backup plan. But the backup plan is regularly becoming the surface plan

[00:12:44] and getting him into trouble with Tornaga. So he has to reiterate that he is not going back to

[00:12:48] Osaka because he's fully aligned with Tornaga. And as he says, from that sunrise scene from

[00:12:54] the previous episodes, since that sunrise we're bound by faith. I kind of like that. It's

[00:13:02] that destiny element to it, all that faithfulness. And so this is really interesting kind of the fall

[00:13:09] out from Yoseph's murder effect. Absolutely. I also like and I know you mentioned that as NFU gets

[00:13:16] the control of the canon regiment. But I do like that Yabashiga goes, it's still my army. You're in

[00:13:22] control of it. You're my NFU. I'm a control of you basically. Yeah, exactly totally pulls the rug

[00:13:27] from under his feet. It doesn't really allow any sense of achievement to sort of wash over him.

[00:13:34] And interesting as well, Yoseph's head is sent back in a box to Osaka to a Shido. So

[00:13:41] with everything going on back in Osaka, there was a timely reminder here with this

[00:13:48] sort of box being returned. Yes, I mean, ultimately it's all very seven going on.

[00:13:53] Absolutely, absolutely. The head returned to its master. Yeah. So well wrapped as well with the

[00:14:00] cloth or the silks. With no trace of blood on it. It's all very well packaged.

[00:14:07] Well, you get to feel the may have done a couple of times before. But do you want to talk a

[00:14:14] little bit about what's going on in this area? In this point, do you want to hold an arm for a later

[00:14:18] point John? I think we can hold that on a little bit later for the episode. Because we do have

[00:14:26] a big return here from Edo back to Osaka. It's the dynamic here from it just being men talking

[00:14:35] about how the fate of Japan will go to the insertion of Lady Achiba as well as she's returned back

[00:14:45] from being hostage. Okay, let's hold that for another another Boshido. So is there anything else

[00:14:49] in the fallout of Joseph and his murder then? No, not for me. I just think it was really good.

[00:14:54] You know, it's just that it's the politics but in this group that's so interesting here.

[00:15:02] It was also must say that opening scene when they're picking up the pieces of the bodies and

[00:15:07] putting them in boxes basically it was pretty brutal as well. Yeah, definitely because all the

[00:15:12] the locals in the town are kind of going, we weren't really meant to be doing this. I didn't think this

[00:15:17] was part of our job. Yeah, it's like, so let's go on to Boshido number two, the other big return

[00:15:22] for the episode. Absolutely. Boris Buntaro returns and is inserted into John Blackphones household.

[00:15:31] So I mean, it immediately sort of smacks of pure awkwardness. Oh, absolutely. Yeah, really,

[00:15:40] really tough. There's some really interesting stuff that's going on as well around. We get the

[00:15:44] whole Feson story, which we'll probably talk about a little bit here, but John being gifted

[00:15:48] the Fesons from the Tornaga's hunting trip. So that must be the most prized Feson to know all

[00:15:53] of the land effectively as he says. So he's going to make something specialised where he's going

[00:15:56] to make a stew for everybody. Well, that's it. I mean, this food to the Japanese. Exactly. I mean,

[00:16:02] I actually love this little kind of jockey through threat, which ultimately had an ended with a

[00:16:08] serious outcome from it. But I really kind of liked at least initially the jokiness of the Feson

[00:16:17] to where you know, it's been strong up just to sort of age. But it's just getting more and

[00:16:24] more smelly at flies, you know, maggots and everyone who's not John Blackthorn is kind of like,

[00:16:34] we need to get rid of this. What's he doing? This is like, this is a travesty. What is happening here?

[00:16:41] And they talk about, I can't remember the name, but almost like there is a curse upon us.

[00:16:48] And we have this as well within the conversations between Mariko and Fujigas.

[00:16:55] And I love that perspective of these two talking about how we're both cursed. Fujigas,

[00:17:01] I have the barbarian and your husband is back from the dead to Mariko. So it kind of plays

[00:17:08] into this, I guess the Feson's is almost a symbol of that it's almost like an evil curse on

[00:17:14] the household. And it's all leading towards this big dinner for Lord Toda for Bontaro that John's

[00:17:24] household is doing. And you know, again, you just have the flies buzzing around Bontaro and he's

[00:17:32] kind of getting more and more agitated by these buzzing flies as he sort of is, you know, like

[00:17:38] picks them off and kills them. But you see the irritation from these flies buzzing around him from

[00:17:46] sort of decaying fettin. Oh, absolutely. Yeah, out from it. But I think that's one of the other

[00:17:52] really good points here. Mariko is the one that's doing all the translation for John. She understands

[00:17:58] his language perfectly. She got really good Portuguese studies still speaking Russian. Yeah.

[00:18:02] And so she's able to discuss everything with him, but she might understand the language,

[00:18:06] but the intention of why you would hang up a perfectly good, freshly hunted fettin

[00:18:12] outside to age is completely lost on her and everybody else in the household. They all believe

[00:18:18] that something bad's going to happen. And John lays down the line because this is what he wants,

[00:18:22] this is his big deal. He's actually going to be able to cook for himself and maybe something that

[00:18:27] tastes like home. So he lays down the line if anybody touches that they're dead, right? Just

[00:18:31] make sure everybody's clear in there. So touch us and you die basically. Yeah. Which I think he

[00:18:36] means there's a little bit of a joke. I don't think he meant us that anybody would die if they

[00:18:40] take that all fresh. So that's interesting. But also the other element that comes out of this,

[00:18:46] Botaro having to live in the household of John, he knows something's going on between Mariko and John,

[00:18:51] he doesn't like John at all, he doesn't like the grace he's been given by Toranaga. And interestingly,

[00:18:57] Fuji feels that John's life is in danger by Botaro being here as well. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

[00:19:03] And I mean it's everything you know, it goes to the rabbit stew that's been proposed,

[00:19:08] whereas not to any of their tastes, you know, again it's all connecting into this is just a barbarian's

[00:19:15] feast effectively. And then I love that he's like, well, I couldn't get all the ingredients that

[00:19:19] I needed. We wouldn't have to get any wine. So I had to get some saki into the mix instead of wine.

[00:19:26] Kind of guy, this is not going to taste pretty good. Exactly. But it's all gravy in the end.

[00:19:30] Exactly. Yeah, kind of like that term of phrase. But absolutely. Especially because at the end of the

[00:19:36] meal Fuji gives the instructions to throw it in the river. Yeah, so nobody wants it anymore.

[00:19:41] Exactly. And you know, but again, it's that back and forth where then all of a sudden

[00:19:49] it's almost like John is trying to sort of get into Botaro's good books by copying him eating

[00:19:54] the noodles. So you have this noodle-eating competition and making the sort of the noise as you take

[00:20:01] it up. And that's kind of morphs ultimately into, you know, as it does between men I guess.

[00:20:08] And so you know, a drinking competition between Botaro and Blackthorn with saki being the

[00:20:16] the drink being used here to kind of prove themselves. Because they actually come from the

[00:20:22] standard saki drinking glasses which is kind of the size of egg cups or shot glasses basically

[00:20:27] to using the bowls for their food and drinking great swats of this of this saki which is

[00:20:34] massively strong. We've never had a saki knife and we're prepared for it. It leads to massive

[00:20:39] hangovers the next day. And very drunken ideas coming out here. Yeah, John does a couple of things

[00:20:45] to offend Botaro. Yeah. Initially welcome me into his home and not calling him Lord Toto went

[00:20:51] in really badly with him. Definitely. Then secondly the way he eats as you say not only is John

[00:20:56] trying to copy him, that offends Lord Toto and that he wouldn't eat the same way that Japanese people

[00:21:03] would. And then he asks him to tell him about his great escapades that he's had at war which again

[00:21:10] highly offends Botaro. He's gone through a massive amount of effectively it's kind of PTSD

[00:21:17] that they're talking about. He said it took him 20 days to fight his way back to

[00:21:22] Torenaga's army after the last time they saw him standing on the docks thinking he was facing

[00:21:27] down death. Well, that's it. It's he asks him about the heroism of escaping a saki which is not

[00:21:35] how Botaro sees it. That was a failure of his duty in some respects to sort of go down

[00:21:42] and fighting. To some extent it's that effectively he had to flee to live rather than face death

[00:21:55] and maybe come out of that with honor by being kept alive but ultimately it was a no-win situation

[00:22:03] but in the end you hear from Torenaga that the number of Ronin helped him and there were 20 of them

[00:22:11] by the end of it by the time they got back and escaped to Edo and there was him and Tulth.

[00:22:17] So I think it's that kind of it's that miscalculation from John about fully understanding the rituals

[00:22:26] and culture that he's in. He still doesn't. I think Botaro is also quite an unusual character who's

[00:22:34] very different from a lot of the other characters. He's a great warrior but doesn't see himself

[00:22:39] as a hero, doesn't want to tell those stories over a pint. He doesn't want to brag about

[00:22:46] the situations that he's been in and when John tries to engage him in that conversation it comes

[00:22:50] across highly offensive to Botaro because of what he's done. That's the way it comes across to me

[00:22:55] anyway but I get what you mean that he may have felt he was disrespectful by surviving.

[00:23:01] Well, I think it's both. I think it's the manner in which he survived. But this turns I suppose

[00:23:09] a dime into some pretty brutal moments here. We have his demo with a bow where he effectively

[00:23:18] shoots out into the garden through the door past Maricose face with an arrow while after

[00:23:27] drinking a gallon of sack it goes to just that brilliantly caught shot of the arrow going past

[00:23:34] the face of Maricose. I'm presuming it's CGI, I presume they didn't ask the actress to sit there

[00:23:39] while they shot a couple of hours faster but it looks fantastic just to see it go by her face.

[00:23:44] You know he's got that level of leg a last skill with a bow and arrow really. Botaro, doesn't he?

[00:23:50] Yeah definitely definitely. But I love and it's just a touch. I noticed the second time I

[00:23:54] watched the episode and I know whether I noticed it the first time but he shoots two arrows out onto

[00:23:58] the right post that John has indicated and later on when John comes back you see the two arrows outside

[00:24:04] but they don't show you during the moment, they don't show you that those two arrows land exactly

[00:24:08] where he placed them. They show the arrow going past her face but they show you at the end of

[00:24:12] the episode. Yeah exactly. They hit their mark which I thought was quite interesting. But also then

[00:24:18] it leads to him instructing Maricose to tell John of her past and who she really is and why

[00:24:25] effectively why he treats her the way he does. Well exactly and in his mind it's okay to do that.

[00:24:31] But it's more than that because I mean in a sense you know John Blackbone is

[00:24:35] kept from exactly what Botaro is saying to his wife which is you know in that he's

[00:24:41] instructed her or forcing her to tell him tell John her sorted history and her filthy line with

[00:24:51] family line of Lord Akeshi Jinsai and his treachery. You know Botaro's view is he was treacherous

[00:24:59] you know he calls it a treacherous assassin killing the former Japanese ruler before the the

[00:25:06] taiko and and that as a result of this all her family were killed and it was her father who had to

[00:25:15] behead all his family except for her because she had been married to to Botaro. And after that

[00:25:24] has to do sepica so you know in Maricose and we've heard this before her armor is not served by

[00:25:35] being kept alive it's that she wants to end her own life and in honor of what happened to the rest

[00:25:44] of her family but it is it needs totes Lord totes courtesy and permission for her to do that and

[00:25:53] each year and Botaro affects we orders her to live and that she cannot do the thing that she wants

[00:26:02] to do most of all. So you know it's really kind of brutal absolutely the whole of this you know

[00:26:09] is brutal and then you see that you know his violence towards her as well and how that spills out

[00:26:16] and so but as he as he's pushing and pushing her to tell this story he's you know not only is she

[00:26:23] ashamed of the history because he's made her ashamed of it as well as everybody else you know

[00:26:28] she understood that her father was hunted down and then had to kill her entire family you know

[00:26:33] for what he did she leaves the table because of her embarrassment and because of that then he

[00:26:38] takes that as a slice and beats her claiming that it's the saki that made him do it you know okay

[00:26:44] I don't I don't feel like this is the first time she's been she's been treated like this by

[00:26:48] Pintaro to be honest I think she was expecting it but we learn again in the conversation later on with

[00:26:54] with Mariko and John when he's trying to say to her you know don't ever feel bad about

[00:27:00] this kind of stuff she's saying to him I give him nothing she's showing this is how she

[00:27:05] employs her eightfold fence she keeps all of this back she gives him nothing she gives him no

[00:27:11] reaction to all of the treatment that he lays upon her but quite a quite a major moment

[00:27:18] and John throws Bontaro out and Bontaro pleads for forgiveness from John for this he falls

[00:27:26] to his knees apologizing saying it was the saki yeah I just stir the harmony of your your home

[00:27:32] yeah you know so yeah exactly it's em it's all really kind of messed up it's really it is but I

[00:27:39] really like it because there's a tendency in these kind of situations if you're telling the story

[00:27:44] about you know this horrible thing of a husband beating his wife the tendency would make it would be

[00:27:49] to have him being really aggressive towards John not for him to be immediately carried an apologetic

[00:27:54] for ruining the honor of the household and ruining the harmony of the household it's not to do that

[00:27:59] so the writing here once again really strong and shogun where it's showing this absolute aehole

[00:28:05] what he's done and then how immediately he flips in a dime when he realizes what are you

[00:28:10] done as well I thought that was a really good choice to do here because it's a horrible horrible guy

[00:28:15] yeah no absolutely I mean the thing is though this whole situation comes to a head as well for

[00:28:23] Mariko and for for John Blackstone as well you know as you say you know she says I'll not give

[00:28:30] my husband my hatred because that is what he merits but John Blackstone has kind of been

[00:28:35] really insistent here and he wants her to be free of this prison almost insults her and

[00:28:42] the idea of using their rules and she says you know you will also never be free of yourself if

[00:28:47] you feel if you're constantly trying to find freedom and it's kind of harking back to his tale

[00:28:52] of why he wanted to be on the open ocean in a sense yeah and you know she as she says it is you

[00:29:00] who are imprisoned because you'll never find freedom and when you're constantly trying to look for

[00:29:07] it and you'll never be free of yourself and so he as she then says I will only be your translator

[00:29:14] from now now we will only speak words spoken through other people effectively yeah so and I mean

[00:29:21] it's also you know it's to the interesting point that in this moment this is John Blackstone it's a

[00:29:26] personal thing as well I think we have to be sort of mindful of that in the sense that you know

[00:29:31] this kind of crap was happening in Europe as well absolutely you know so it like the the thing is

[00:29:39] is maybe you know John Blackstone had being free seeing women with agency he sees that that's what

[00:29:49] she should have he can see her strength but she is doing what she is doing and she is happy with that

[00:29:58] you know and as she retorts it's like you also are imprisoned yes and this is not just about me

[00:30:05] absolutely you can't judge me for this and I think that's really important that that kind of comes out

[00:30:10] which is absolutely absolutely and again you know John caused the stars of their to kick off really

[00:30:17] from Bontaro because he effectively requested that Bontaro treats his wife with more respect and

[00:30:24] the minute he did that that's when Bontaro turned and told her to tell her story to John so

[00:30:30] again he was he was at the forefront of that as well and it's quite a big scene and quite

[00:30:36] a quite a central moment of the episode as he said it's got comedy in it it's got real danger

[00:30:42] in there for what's going on in this household with a return of Bontaro I thought it was

[00:30:46] absolutely done uh Paris of the episode really really good oh absolutely yeah no it's really

[00:30:51] tense and really good um but I think shall we get onto Bushido number three because yeah

[00:30:58] quick one here yeah because one of the other things that is happening in the village of Agero is

[00:31:04] you know they're searching Yabashighi and uh Ami are looking for this spy they're still trying

[00:31:12] to search for it but we actually now we see Toronaga going to speak with his spy down in between

[00:31:20] the rocks uh by the coast close to the the town or to the village and where all the pigeons are being

[00:31:29] kept hidden and you know it is one of Toronaga's long serving samurai who we find out is the

[00:31:37] spy it is the fairly sort of genuine reflect kind of fisherman who first saw a black thorn

[00:31:44] ship and but is his his faithful samurai Toronaga but as Toronaga says no you are still to be known

[00:31:54] as Miraji and he has you know his his spy name effectively has embedded into this village and

[00:32:03] importantly he's telling him here that they're effectively on his trail because they're going to put

[00:32:07] to get a two and two together that every time something happens that he's a rat and so he needs to

[00:32:11] find somebody else to take the blame somebody else to be seen as the spy in the village and this

[00:32:17] is where the stench of the pheasant that's causing huge consternation sort of plot with not now not

[00:32:24] only within the household but the village it's outside of the household gates that they can smell this

[00:32:30] so you know the the tale has gone round of this like grim fest happening and so weird isn't it like

[00:32:37] we used aged me quite often like we need to carry a aged b-fold the time you know put this this

[00:32:43] idea that's not something that they would ever do in Japan the entire town would be affected by

[00:32:48] the stench of the rusting pheasant is just is it just that John's not good at a curing me so

[00:32:54] that's not the thing or at ageing me so is that the well I guess so I guess so and it's outside

[00:32:59] normally it would have to be in a dry place and I get it rains and awful lot and it's not a dry

[00:33:05] place no it's not so it might be to do with that really but ultimately um it ends up with

[00:33:13] John's gardener being killed because he is the one that took the pheasant and for that he died

[00:33:22] because of John Blackthorns orders or if anyone touches this they die yeah and he's kind of like

[00:33:28] in total shock around this I love the fact that Mariko says to him because your words have meaning

[00:33:35] no it's because John Blackthorns is like gobsmacks he cannot believe any of this yeah it kind of

[00:33:43] confirms to him that he just needs to get out of this situation in some respects um and his troubles

[00:33:51] you know as he um he says to Taronaga when he says he believes he fulfills his duty you know

[00:33:58] I'm troubled by your whole country I want to to leave and be rid of this country of Japan and

[00:34:05] this is all spurred on by his gardener's death and and this is all ultimately used as a foil

[00:34:13] to throw the scent off the real spy by Miraji yeah yeah absolutely absolutely but just a small point

[00:34:20] but it's interesting that that's in the background the whole time they know there's a spy in the

[00:34:24] village and they're trying to find two things but uh but an interesting one um we go on to bouchida

[00:34:28] number four the biggest surprise uh of the episode you have lots of people returning in this episode

[00:34:34] there should be big surprise moments but I was absolutely unprepared after last week when we had

[00:34:40] the very small earthquake yet that should have been an idea that were in for a bigger earthquake

[00:34:45] coming but this was a shocking moment but she didn't have a four earthquake and mudslide

[00:34:51] and this is massive absolutely I mean ultimately Lord Taronaga could have been killed here

[00:34:59] he's totally swept away yep um as the the ground beneath him gives gives out from the earthquake

[00:35:08] and he's you know he's swept away ultimately being saved by uh by John Blackthorn and again you know

[00:35:17] the second time that Blackthorn has saved uh Taronaga firstly getting him out of a sacka but then now

[00:35:26] digging him out of the ground that he's been consumed by from the mudslides so but I mean what's really

[00:35:34] I think interesting here is that he not only saves him but by being buried Taronaga has lost his

[00:35:44] katana's and he doesn't have them to hand this is you know a status symbol absolutely this is a

[00:35:51] symbol of power of of a range of different things yeah no and but like we Blackthorn gives him his

[00:35:59] katana's yes like we saw how important it is because when when Blackthorn became Hathamoto they won't

[00:36:04] let him walk around with eight some swords on because that is part of the designation part of your

[00:36:08] position so he gives him those katanas um so that Taronaga still has swords at his size and in his

[00:36:16] hands so this was really um you know you can see that there was a deep meaning there and but then

[00:36:24] it's it's almost quite so briefly done because then it pulls back and you see that

[00:36:32] Taronaga's army where is being where it's been camping a loss of it is currently being consumed by

[00:36:40] these mudslides oh let's the second that happened you turned around to me after after the scene

[00:36:44] happened on screen you just kind of went uh what the hell this happened there we have to rewind it

[00:36:48] because it's literally this massive mudslide that takes it like about half or maybe a quarter of

[00:36:53] this massive army that's just arrived in a zero uh the army that's supposed to support Taronaga's

[00:36:58] play and and supposed to take on these armies in Asaka and here we are in the background this massive

[00:37:05] mudslides coming down just wiping them all out and we saw how violent it is by seeing Taronaga being

[00:37:12] taken by it so you can imagine what's going on in the distance you know I think it's again amazingly

[00:37:17] filmed moment in the episode really really good you know I'm sure they were they were thinking about all

[00:37:22] the horrible uh worldwide events that have happened with uh with these type of natural disasters

[00:37:29] and we're putting it on screen at that moment when you're not really expecting there's so much personal

[00:37:34] dynamics going on in this episode I wasn't expecting something as massive as this as the earth

[00:37:39] to literally shake and everybody and to lose so many people yeah and it's one of those interesting

[00:37:44] things to do because I mean you know you get the sense of everything being quite carefully planned

[00:37:49] and crafted certainly by Taronaga you know and in some cases some quite sort of long established

[00:37:55] plans and strategies being sort of being active out here and and yet it's

[00:38:05] it's the abruptness of an intervention wholly unexpected wholly on planned

[00:38:11] of a natural disaster through the earthquake in the mudslides and you know now we'll see that the

[00:38:17] metal here or of Taronaga and his allies because you know significant proportion of his army has

[00:38:25] probably been consumed in the mud and he's got to try and rebound from that and so it's really kind

[00:38:34] of that great sort of element here within the story of you know best laid plans you know can always

[00:38:42] sort of go awry through to something completely out of your control like an earthquake so I really

[00:38:49] enjoyed that element to it. What a way to put your main character on the back foot? Absolutely

[00:38:54] I think the other thing just the little touch I really liked here and I think this is why I really

[00:38:59] like about the show you know because they go back to the village and the village has also been

[00:39:03] in effect is yeah this is obviously over a significantly larger area and the buildings have

[00:39:09] collapsed fully or partially but I like that you know as they're sort of trying to deal with that

[00:39:16] mess from the earthquake back at Johns household that he honors his gardener by setting up

[00:39:25] the stones in in the garden after the earthquake and because we have that moment where

[00:39:31] the gardener tells him why he places the stones so specifically and the sand garden and so on

[00:39:38] and I kind of like that little touch absolutely given you know maybe Maricose words just came

[00:39:46] through to John that well your words have meaning you're a hatter moto. Absolutely. You have status

[00:39:53] in our world, in our culture and if you say that then that means something. Yes.

[00:40:01] And you've got to be careful about the words you say. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And it was also

[00:40:07] important as well to have John check in on Fuji and make sure she was okay you know it's again

[00:40:11] he's part of her household and he does care and want to make sure that she's alive. He may not be

[00:40:17] wanting to pillow with her but he is trying to take care of her right? Yeah I thought that was

[00:40:21] important as well. How about our last Bushido for the episode John? Absolutely. Onto Bushido

[00:40:28] number five, the return of Lady Ashiba. Yes now we said earlier on that we were going to hold off

[00:40:34] what was happening in Osaka until we talked about this point because the return of Lady Ashiba

[00:40:38] is a massive point bush. There are other things that are going on in the saga amongst the

[00:40:44] ruling council. And it starts out with the return of the head of of Joseph to Ashido.

[00:40:53] But there's an interesting element that's playing out where we have conversations among each

[00:40:58] of them about who the fifth member of the the council is going to be now that they're trying to

[00:41:04] impeach Toronaga and they need somebody that will vote alongside them and impeach Toronaga

[00:41:10] they can't be anybody but I really like the conversation where you have them some of the suggestions

[00:41:16] that are in there so they're suggesting one of the one of the lords be Akida and their response

[00:41:22] from Ashido saying he'll smell of countryside and then they mention Eriza and he goes

[00:41:28] it will smell of Christianity and then it was it was Ohno's cousin Maido and they say well he's

[00:41:34] syphiletic and then they look over at Ohno who's got leprosy. Exactly no offense kind of thing but we

[00:41:39] don't need so much that but I love that each of them are picking off all of the possible and other

[00:41:47] the fifth member I guess at the council. And then there's a really interesting piece that plays out

[00:41:51] of the episode goes on they all eat meals together while they discuss their plans and while they

[00:41:57] discuss their machinations and it was really interesting to see different members of the group making

[00:42:03] excuses and not appearing until eventually is just Ashido on his own eating his food on his own.

[00:42:09] It was something I didn't really notice the first time it was the episode but I guess that's what

[00:42:13] happening they are fracturing and separating they aren't as unified as they were. Absolutely it was

[00:42:18] a really great way of just showing how this this council of regents was beginning to fracture

[00:42:25] and become disunited really and I think it then plays into Lady Ashiba coming back because she

[00:42:33] arrives back in Osaka and it's Ashido who is pleased that she is back here and she is the

[00:42:42] mother but it's also the way she comes back here because she fears for her son the air and as she says

[00:42:54] I'm alarmed that the council was outmaneuvered. It's a real diplomatic way you know she

[00:43:01] she realizes that she was the air's consort not not um not is wife but consort because she bought

[00:43:11] the sun the air so it has a very special place it's very important because of that but she's also

[00:43:19] knows she's living in a world of a full email council and the supremacy of the paternal air

[00:43:30] in a sense so you know it's just the phrasing of it you know that outmaneuvered

[00:43:37] that there is threats to her son the obvious ones from Tyranaga but also she's kind of hinting

[00:43:44] at that maybe internal within within a saga from the council and I just love the line that the

[00:43:52] time for politics has come to an end the council will answer to me so I mean it's like oh yeah

[00:44:00] hello Ashiba yeah absolutely I like this character yeah really really good I love how she just does

[00:44:06] that with Ashido as well and it's kind of like you know is this the threat to him or she just

[00:44:14] really in this way bringing him into her council because she sees him as a point of power or the

[00:44:24] most easily manipulators because I think that's the wonderful character here that we have with

[00:44:30] lady Ashiba yes I think it is I think it is and I also wonder if she does feel there's any real

[00:44:36] threat to the air or well I guess she knows there's a threat to the air I think she thinks it's from

[00:44:41] to an aga no but I think it's hang on a second I'm coming back time for politics is over everybody's

[00:44:48] reporting to me I get the power in now and even though technically she was not the wife of the

[00:44:54] type of she has an opportunity here is what it feels like absolutely actually going to take that

[00:44:59] opportunity right there she can play Tarenaga as the external threat and also that the council has

[00:45:05] allowed this to develop absolutely the air is threatened yeah you know and something needs to be

[00:45:12] done I can't really really enjoy and enjoy that to be honest absolutely absolutely great stuff yeah

[00:45:19] we're looking forward to seeing how it plays out there in a second but some interesting movements

[00:45:23] there again it's it's just intriguing to see this council of regents are so misaligned you know they

[00:45:28] have this idea of taking out Tarenaga he's over on one side go and oh god how do I get myself out of

[00:45:35] this head away head away sorry they're not like he's it's not like he's panicking but he must be

[00:45:39] a bit worried losing a significant part of his army to a mostly like thinking this was going to be

[00:45:44] you know the stand there we're gonna have against the army from Osaka and here they are in

[00:45:50] Osaka all fighting amongst themselves all unable to sit down for a meal together let alone decide

[00:45:55] on what the actual plan for the future is and in steps lady a chi bat yeah absolutely to throw

[00:46:01] another cat amongst the pigeons in the second great stuff oh I absolutely love watching the show

[00:46:08] I have no idea what's coming around the quarter every week we turn it on you get about halfway

[00:46:12] through the episode never written you know two pages of notes of the episode and then I still have

[00:46:17] another two pages to write before we get to the end of the episode so much going on it's so exciting

[00:46:23] yeah just not knowing what's gonna happen would you have predicted that we're gonna get an earthquake

[00:46:26] in a mudslide knowing how to not no but it's so rich it's so multi layers and it's really really

[00:46:34] good so yeah it's just the fact that they can do you know those small moments like Bontaro and John

[00:46:39] and Marie co and Fuji in a room and making it really really tense and then they can also have these

[00:46:45] massive moments like even just the arrival of the massive army that alone the earthquake I mean for

[00:46:50] me the show is absolutely excellent and I think I mean you know watch the episodes a number of times

[00:46:58] because with the subtitles sometimes you just miss certain things you know you need to watch them

[00:47:03] through and then you watch it through almost to to be able to get the the full meaning yeah

[00:47:10] what and to make sure that the notes are complete you know because otherwise you miss something

[00:47:15] and and so and each time I could just keep watching this show again and again it's really really epic

[00:47:23] and at the same time kind of quite deep and personal and I mean that's always great with epic

[00:47:30] you know whether it's movies or shows it is that epic sweep that grandness but at the same time

[00:47:36] the intimate moments the the fact that these moments of greatness that these epic moments hinge on

[00:47:45] interpersonal relationships and the machinations that go on you know so it's absolutely superb

[00:47:51] yeah and any notes Derek for this episode I think I think I think we talked about everything I

[00:47:56] want to talk about in the episode and I mean Bushido points today to hear from you John no nothing

[00:48:00] for me but I would give this five stinky fessence how five and I really loved this episode

[00:48:08] if one fessing can stink at 10 five stink five would be a disaster how about five well freshly

[00:48:16] aged fessence that's much to stinky fessence we don't want stinky fessence but it was it was the thing

[00:48:22] is the thing I loved about the fessing is the it was this gag ultimately it's about what is the bar

[00:48:30] burying doing yeah why is he doing it the consternation it causes initially with Fuji

[00:48:38] marico and the household and then into the wider village and then ultimately ends with a real

[00:48:45] sort of sad moment because all this stuff being lost between them even though John Blackthorn

[00:48:52] has been there for some time now has been given the position of Hata moto he is still

[00:49:01] hasn't understood that position and the meaning his words even though they were off the

[00:49:08] cough around if anyone touches that they die yeah and it was probably because it was the only way he

[00:49:14] could push it across with his dare I say it pigeon um Japanese yeah so it kind of ends off with this

[00:49:23] actually really sort of tragedy of the gardener being the one to take it and taking the rap

[00:49:33] and at the same time being used then by Toranaga and his spy as the full guy you know so yeah

[00:49:40] I just thought it was a really great little thing going through this and through this episode

[00:49:46] absolutely absolutely absolutely but let us move on to our feedback for last week's episode

[00:49:54] yes and John's back with me for feedback the way we've been recording it last couple weeks

[00:49:59] I've been on my own for feedback yes our wonderful fellow warriors have been keeping me company

[00:50:04] every week excellent stuff yeah excellent so you missed days on the announcement that's nine

[00:50:08] million people watch the premiere episode which is massive apparently 1.8 million homes in the

[00:50:13] U.S. tuned in that first week to watch it so massive massive viewership and confirmation that

[00:50:18] we're only getting one season because the show is sticking close to the book and we'll end exactly

[00:50:23] the same put away as the that's the book ended and they said they've wrote nothing for a second season

[00:50:28] I'm all so good to know and so this is a big one-off show yeah now we know it now yeah which is good

[00:50:33] at least chips all in yeah exactly right but let's get on to our feedback first up over on Facebook

[00:50:39] we got some food back in from Jamie Loughton who says again this series still holds my undivided

[00:50:45] attention to storyline diverges and then convergesable what was written in the novel and what has been

[00:50:49] seen in the 80s TV series the writers have managed to bring fresh interpretations to an already

[00:50:53] well-known at least to me tale I'd also like to add that I am literally on the edge of my seat

[00:50:58] watching the series there again that could be due to my age and eyesight as I don't want to miss

[00:51:03] anything while reading the subtitles which as you pointed out before are brilliantly edited

[00:51:07] so is enough to be missed by being shown on a lightbacker and as sometimes happens on other

[00:51:11] movies or shows excellent stuff Jamie yes I mean it is undivided attention absolutely the right way

[00:51:19] to describe it and I think for book readers people who watch the 80s series but also those coming

[00:51:27] fresh in it it really is such a brilliantly sort of woven show yeah that just builds intrigue

[00:51:38] attention trepidation you name it it's that high stakes political gamble and maneuvering which

[00:51:45] is just so good and just the backdrop of just a beautifully rendered Japan and all the design

[00:51:56] the costumes everything really really good yeah totally agree absolutely Jamie I've completely

[00:52:01] agree with you it's just have no idea what's coming next but it's interesting having read the book

[00:52:05] as you have it's interesting that they're still able to keep your attention as well until you're

[00:52:09] not expecting what's coming next as well good stuff thanks Jamie yeah thanks Jamie Victor on Doomsay is

[00:52:15] this series continues to impress it truly belongs on the big screen the mafia Kosa Nostra

[00:52:21] et al have nothing on what's going on in 1600s Japan the beginning of marico and john black

[00:52:28] thorns low sorry against the coming war is gripping I look forward to it really hitting the fan

[00:52:34] when toron aga returns with love to have seen sunny chiba rip in the role of yabushigi that's an

[00:52:41] interesting idea sunny chiba in the role of yabushigi yeah I really only know sunny chiba from

[00:52:48] his western work he was in kill bill and he spoke to the bride he was he played the sushi chef

[00:52:54] yeah and eventually he was the the maker of her sword in kill bill so I remember something cheaper

[00:52:59] for that I know he was a big action star in the seventies I think he featured in in true romance as

[00:53:03] well if I remember my my Tarantino movies so I haven't seen a huge amount of movies but that would

[00:53:09] be an interesting choice I do love the actor playing yabushigi in in in show then it's one of

[00:53:15] those ones think think back to the first episode what the way we're introduced to him he was a

[00:53:19] character who was burning someone alive to find out their last words before they died and now as

[00:53:24] the episodes go on you're kind of rooting for him to navigate and survive what's going on

[00:53:29] around him you know and so how you go from someone that will boil someone alive in the first

[00:53:34] episode someone that you're kind of source of rooting for by the fifth episode is really interesting

[00:53:39] so not many actors can pull that off yeah excellent stuff thanks victor thanks victor doctor

[00:53:44] Bob Phillips says beautifully shot again and the beauty of the shooting was certainly the main

[00:53:48] storyline here with cannon, consorts and carnage the baby earthquake I think is the very grand

[00:53:54] under their feet signaling the oncoming doom the acting of marico is superb her tortured solely

[00:54:00] icy flashbacks and the burgeoning romance she's such an interesting character much more so than

[00:54:05] black thrown at the moment yeah absolutely I mean I can really see that I mean in some ways as well

[00:54:11] I guess for Europeans or Westerners John Blackthorn is that typical point of view almost swash

[00:54:18] bookling you know from that period in terms of what we already know and I think certainly it's

[00:54:24] the two of those positions as well and it amplifies marico yeah in terms of her wisdom

[00:54:32] and everything that she has with dealing with John Blackthorn yeah yeah I think it's an interesting

[00:54:39] three-hander really in the show you know John Blackthorn is obviously a central character as you say

[00:54:43] you meet him first he's the first major character you meet but it really is marico toranaga and

[00:54:49] john blackthorn story learning about each of those and that the supported characters around them

[00:54:53] think each episode you can kind of pick which is your favorite character I suppose as the show is

[00:54:58] going on but marico is so interesting to watch especially this discussion in this episode of the

[00:55:03] at the eightfold fence and last week's episodes are of the eightfold fence I thought that was

[00:55:07] the most interesting insight to her as a character because on the surface she will not let you know

[00:55:12] what's going on but underneath she has her own plans which is her own ideas and what how she will

[00:55:17] survive this world well so yeah she's fascinating really really good thanks dr. bob yeah thanks dr.

[00:55:23] bob joe herbys says great show but I do have a question nitpick about the episode I can't

[00:55:29] remember if this came up in the discussion of the last episode but how would marico be able to

[00:55:34] translate blackthorns logbook he's an Englishman piloting a dutch ship so he's not going to record

[00:55:41] things in portuguese language of his enemies which is what he uses to speak with marico no one in

[00:55:47] Japan knows english or dutch yeah this is an interesting one I was having to have a think about

[00:55:53] this and I was talking to you as well about after his comment and so what happens if you remember

[00:55:59] rudderie guys takes the logbooks and gives them to the portuguese and then they get given back to

[00:56:05] toranaga so I feel like they've done some translation on us she's reading some notations that are

[00:56:11] in the logbook she's not reading the logbook directly so they may have translated it into portuguese

[00:56:15] potentially or into some of the language that she that marico reads i think joe was saying that

[00:56:22] it's potentially they're written in Latin and because she's Catholic and studying Latin which you

[00:56:27] would at the time when you're when you're learning how to how to do a worship and Catholicism

[00:56:32] of all would have been Latin so I think they've already translated some of them so she's

[00:56:37] getting their translation of the logbook which in itself could be quite dangerous because remember

[00:56:42] again john blackthorn is an enemy of the portuguese so they may have translated it to make

[00:56:47] what he's actually doing even worse than what the logbooks are saying maybe you know so potentially

[00:56:52] marico's reading of the books is influenced by the portuguese which i think is an interesting

[00:56:56] choice as well and but i don't think she's translating english i think it is such she's

[00:57:01] getting some idea of the books from what yeah and i think it will be in Latin absolutely yeah yeah

[00:57:09] but an interesting idea isn't that yeah something that i didn't think about at the time

[00:57:12] no i didn't actually so good good pull there joe yeah excellent good stuff joe good sposs

[00:57:18] thanks so much fellow warriors for your feedback great to hear your thoughts about this epic show

[00:57:25] and i can keep them coming in of course yeah i'll go i'll get john up speed on the the feedback

[00:57:29] that you've been sending in over the last couple episodes so you can see your wonderful thoughts

[00:57:32] keep sending them in you can email us to feedback at tvpodcastindustries.com with any thoughts you

[00:57:36] might have about show them or any of the other shows that we cover of course and you can join us

[00:57:41] over on our facebook group at facebook.com slash groups slash tv podcast industries there's a spoiler

[00:57:46] post up there for each episode as it's released and we of course talk about your feedback on the next

[00:57:50] episode back to Derek and john in the past to say goodbye for the episode bye bye that's it for

[00:57:57] this episode of our chat about shogun chapter five oh i cannot wait for a next week when we can

[00:58:03] talk about chapter six. Yeah absolutely cannot wait for the next episode we will be back for

[00:58:10] our chat all things shogun chapter six ladies of the willow world yes absolutely thanks so much for

[00:58:19] joining us let's talk to you next time yeah thank you so much fellow warriors for joining us remember

[00:58:24] in the meantime and until chapter six keep watching and keep listening bye bye