[00:00:00] This is the Pennyworth Podcast on TV Podcast Industries, we're talking about Season 2 Episode 7 The Bloody Mary A brand new weapon of mass destruction is likely going to be used on civilians. That's not America's business? No
[00:00:14] Can we at least brief Prime Minister Aziz on this situation? The League have no idea what they're facing. The people of London are- Absolutely not! The League leadership and the London public will find out about Storm Cloud soon enough. It's not our job to inform them.
[00:00:27] The US government doesn't officially know about Storm Cloud and we don't need to know. We need deniability. But you do know. I'll deny that. Ma'am, surely now is the time for the US government to intervene forcefully to forbid the use of Storm Cloud under international laws.
[00:00:45] If Storm Cloud is used, it'll end the war pretty damn quick, right? Well yes, I guess it would. Well your president thinks ending wars quickly is good. My god. You sons of bitches want them to use Storm Cloud?
[00:01:09] Dr. Fox, you've been through a harrowing experience. Emotional feelings are only to be expected. You'll both be on the embassy flight tomorrow without fail. Now until then, you speak to no one. Silence. Clear? Clear, Chief. Very clear. Wait a minute! You- You caught me off!
[00:01:32] I had so much more to say to her! That is precisely why I cut you off. I was doing you a favour. Welcome back, governors. We're back with Pettyworth. Season two, episode seven, The Bloody Mary on TV podcast industries. I'm one of your hosts, Derek.
[00:02:05] Hello there, fellow governors and Gothamites. I am one of your other hosts, John. Fancy a morning drink? Yeah, Bloody Mary. Possibly a reference to the hangover cure that sorts everybody out from the night before. Maybe, maybe.
[00:02:21] My other reference for it was Bloody Mary used to be what Queen Mary, the first of England, was called. And she's the one that tried to reverse the English Reformation, which is kind of what's going on with the Raven League trying to take over
[00:02:34] everywhere in England and trying to overthrow the throne basically. Because the Queen is a member of the English League. So potentially that's the reference? It could be, yeah. Or it could be just in the cold light of warning you regret your decisions of maybe moving to America.
[00:02:51] Yes, exactly. It's a little bit of that. Yes, we're going to talk spoiler filled all about season two, episode seven of Pennyworth. Still not sure if this is the penultimate episode of Pennyworth. Unfortunately nobody's been able to confirm it for me.
[00:03:04] Still, I am to be listing the show as 10 episodes in the season. We have one more episode to go for DeFrit. And we're just not sure if there's two more after that or if this is the end.
[00:03:13] But this does feel a little bit like the penultimate episode of the series. So I can see how they get another couple of episodes out of it, of course. But it does feel like an ultimate episode. Yeah, it does.
[00:03:22] I mean, you can really see that this would wrap up the events happening in England for sure. And yeah, it'd be interesting. Hopefully we get another couple after episode eight. But at the moment, I guess this could be the penultimate episode of Pennyworth season two. Yeah.
[00:03:44] So it's interesting that there's nothing for definite about the length of this season. So it's a little strange. But it's like a big surprise parcel, I guess. Exactly. And remember, again, times of COVID, this show did shut down production for a couple of months
[00:04:04] and came back towards the end of last year to film its last few episodes. So they did make changes to the story. We are aware of that from some interviews with the cast. It did make change to the story to facilitate filming in time of COVID as well.
[00:04:16] So potentially they did shorten down the series a little bit, which may explain one or two things that happened in this episode. Another piece of news. Let's kick off with a little bit of news, John. Another piece of news that may play into Pennyworth as well.
[00:04:27] Bruno Heller, the co-creator of Gotham and of Pennyworth, has been tapped to jump aboard one of the three announced spin-offs for Game of Thrones. He's going to be involved in Sea Snakes Nine Voyages. This is a story set in the world of Game of Thrones,
[00:04:45] a big epic story by the sense of the description of it. But interesting because Bruno Heller had written almost every episode of season one and a number of episodes in season two, we wrote last week's episode, episode six of Pennyworth.
[00:04:57] So if he's going on to become showrunner or head writer on another show, something as epic as HBO's Game of Thrones world or universe, this may be an indicator that Pennyworth may be done at the end of season two. Yeah, it's a strong indication for sure.
[00:05:12] Total speculation, of course. You know, there's nothing here saying that he can't do two shows at the same time. You know, he is a writer. He is able to write multiple things. He has, of course, worked for HBO before when he worked on Rome many years ago.
[00:05:24] So he has worked within their environment before and their big shows with big budgets behind them. So, but very interesting to see what Bruno Heller would do in the world of Game of Thrones. Exactly. Throw Batman in there, I guess.
[00:05:37] It'll be just the kind of prequel to Game of Thrones effectively, how everybody got their start. You know? But I guess having done Rome, then there's an element there that is maybe that epic sorts and sandals. Exactly. So yeah, it'd be interesting to see.
[00:05:55] You know, given that we've kind of gotten to know him through effectively DC comic world and certainly he's known for that police or psychology procedural that he's done with at least Gotham season one. And the mentalist. And the mentalist, exactly.
[00:06:17] So yeah, it'd be interesting to see how involved he is with this and what take if he is involved, what take he does on it. Yeah. Yeah. But there you go. That's a little bit of news within the Pennyworth world, let's say.
[00:06:32] There is another big thing that happened in DC this week as well. But we're going to talk about the episode of Pennyworth first. And then we'll talk a little bit at the end of the podcast about our thoughts on
[00:06:42] Zack Snyder's Justice League, which was released this week on HBO. Max in the US and on Sky movies over in Europe. Sky cinema, excuse me, over in Europe as well. So we did get the chance to see it and we'll talk about a little bit later on.
[00:06:54] But let's get into this episode of Pennyworth, John. Yes, let us get into our spoiler filled review. Derek, what are some of the episode details? All the episodes written by Jimmy Dairdall. He wrote episode three of this season. That was the episode where Baza died.
[00:07:08] So quite a big episode of season two with that Jimmy wrote back on board for this episode. The episode was directed by Catherine Moorhead. She's been directed TV since back in the 90s, including pretty much all of the big British shows
[00:07:20] from Soaps Like Emmerdale to Sci-Fi with Dr. Hoon, Ashes to Ashes, period drama with Dent and Abbey, comedy in no offense on the four weddings and a funeral TV series. So lots of different strings to Catherine's bow.
[00:07:31] And you kind of need that when you come on board with something like Pennyworth, which really does straddle old divides. Yeah, definitely. Excellent stuff. John, do you want to give us the synopsis for this episode? Sure.
[00:07:43] Lord Harwood, under house arrest at his family home, works out that Salt, now the acting chancellor of the Raven Union, was responsible for undermining him and his allies. But sympathizers in the Raven Union hook Harwood up with the psych sisters.
[00:07:58] But surrounded by the army, Lord Harwood sacrifices himself so that Bette and Peggy Sykes can deliver vital information to Francis Gaunt. Back in London, Alfred prepares for his flight to America with his mother and Dave Boy. With vicious rumours swirling about their affair,
[00:08:14] Alfie's and Melanie Troy have a final fling. But the following day, Alfie turns down one last job for her husband, Gully Troy, who becomes increasingly suspicious and confronts his wife. After a brutal fight with his wife, she flees to Alfred,
[00:08:30] where he offers her to take her to America as well. Meanwhile, with the knowledge of Storm Cloud, the US Embassy also proposes to evacuate all its personnel from London. At the airport, both Thomas Wayne and Alfred Pennyworth decide not to leave London
[00:08:45] and continue fighting as Thomas and Lucius Fox share their information on Storm Cloud with the English League. All the storylines really coalescing as the season comes to a close here, which doesn't help us in our format of how we break out these episodes.
[00:09:00] Unfortunately, we do tend to talk about the separate storylines separately, but we will maintain it. I think we're going to kick off with Alfie the Boys and the Job, which still works because once again, Alfie has been offered a job this time.
[00:09:14] Yeah, one last job, another last job. I love it. It must be a joke in the writer's room where they just put up on the board. One last job. What's it going to be this week? Must be some kind of joke in there, isn't it? Yeah.
[00:09:26] Yeah, you see Alfie packing up at home with his mom getting set to leave the country. You see Mrs. P trying to sell off a bit of their furniture for a fiver. Yeah. Whereas she being offered what, three pounds for the bit of furniture?
[00:09:42] Seems like a steal to me. Yeah, it really does. I mean, I guess the guy's argument who's trying to bottle with her is that, well, this all could be just match wood given the bombardment of London by the Raven Union. Very true.
[00:09:56] And so she's lucky to get anything for it. But I guess it's like a yard sale as they try and prepare for the move, the big move to America. Everything must go, yes. But Gully Troy comes in as we said just with one last job.
[00:10:11] And they're 10k jobs. These jobs are getting lots of money for Alfie if he does go for them. Well, it's a good job the money is kind of coming Alfie's way and he's got the luxury of saying yes or no to it because this episode certainly
[00:10:28] Alfie is fooling money around like he's a millionaire given he was pretty much broke and needed to regain the money so he could get the tickets and so on. He's certainly playing fast and loose with his money in this episode.
[00:10:44] But he refuses here and Gully is wondering why. But I mean, I must say that I found Gully's suspicions a little weird here. I guess the main context for it was that right at the start we see that Alfie and Melanie have
[00:11:03] another fling here behind the back of Gully Troy. So, you know, he probably missed and you know, wondered where his wife had gone in that moment. It's probably slightly unlike her to do that. And he comes to Alfie and maybe it's with the knowledge already.
[00:11:25] I mean, we know from the English League that it's knowledge to Aziz and the Queen. So, you know, there are these rumors circulating. Having effectively consummated their affair in the Delaney Club, it's a very public place. People at least saw her coming and going from there.
[00:11:46] So, I guess that's where the suspicions have come in for Gully. But it kind of feels like it just didn't have that real direct connection where he, you know, has overheard someone saying something or saw a note or whatever or followed her.
[00:12:09] So, his suspicions just centered around Alfie not wanting to take that last job. To me, it just seemed a little weird because while he's going to America the next day,
[00:12:23] why would he be doing a job in two or three days time after the preparation and planning for it? So, I didn't understand why he was making a bit of a meal of it. Because there's a flight goes every week, John.
[00:12:34] If you miss this flight, you can wait till next week. I like the kind of gag of that whereas nowadays, well, in regular times, you would have a flight going every day or at least one. Here it's like, you know, pull off your plans for a week.
[00:12:45] We have another job for you. I think one of the things that's missing in Pennyworth Season 2 that I was expecting a lot more of were all the way towards the end of the season there. And I really was expecting with bringing in something like someone like Gully Troy,
[00:12:58] who's supposed to have a history with Bazaar and Dave Boyd and Alfie, that you would have seen some kind of flashbacks to their time in the army together. It's something he didn't get much in Season 2. We saw some of that in Season 1.
[00:13:09] Yeah, there was a little bit right at the start but then yeah, nothing further. And I think that would have helped develop this idea that Gully knows Alfie really well. He knows when he's off with them. The two of them know each other.
[00:13:21] They've had this relationship we've seen throughout the season. And you know, remember early on in the season, we had Alfie standing up directly to Gully Troy, that excellent line with Gully going, I'm Gull of Troy, no one messes with me.
[00:13:33] And Alfie going, I'm Alfred Pennyworth and I just did. You know, he is a very strong character, not willing to back down at any time, which is probably why Gully's suspicions are really ignited by Alfie kind of going, no, no, I'm off.
[00:13:46] I'm out of here now kind of thing. I'm not going to do that job for you. Yeah, and I guess there's a bit of unit loyalty to their military grouping. It kind of works, it kind of doesn't. It feels a little offhand that he's suddenly really being
[00:14:10] narrow-eyed and suspicious in this way. But it does ignite the suspicion. He doesn't, I don't think anyway from the next scene, which we'll talk about in a second, I don't think he instantly thinks this is what's happening with Alfie.
[00:14:23] He's looking to confirm this with Melanie because there's been some idea that something's been going on. He's now going back to his house with this idea in his head. Alfie seems a bit weird with me. You seem a bit weird with me, Melanie.
[00:14:36] Putting two and two together, he starts to push really hard with Melanie to find out whether the two of them are having a relationship. And when she confirms it, he loses it. And this is probably one of the most brutal scenes we've ever seen. Yeah, absolutely.
[00:14:51] I kept having to remind myself that this is a stunt stubble that's working, that's doing the part of Melanie effectively because she's being thrown left, right and center across that room, smashing through tables and chairs. A really brutal scene and something you really don't see very often.
[00:15:06] Yeah, it was very, very realistic, very violent and very brutal. It was difficult to watch actually because it was very raw, but it hats off for portraying that domestic violence and that outburst of anger in physical violent ways from Gully. It felt very realistic.
[00:15:30] And I think sometimes that's where the jar happens because you know that this is coming from a comic book. And there's a lot of violence in comic books, lots of fights and so on.
[00:15:40] And this felt very grounded, very realistic and certainly it was a tough one to watch. But she does manage to get away. She certainly gives as good as she got from Gully. I think it's a corkscrew to the leg, arm and then kind of shoulder.
[00:16:00] So she manages to get away and run back to Alfie. Do you know I was almost certain that was in his neck and I thought that was going to be the end of Gully? Exactly, me too.
[00:16:08] Like I thought they were actually going to do it this way where it wasn't going to be the jilted lover going back after Alfie in next week's episode. I thought they were actually going to have it that Melanie got out of there
[00:16:19] and took out Gully on her way. But we do see him later on on the floor mopping up his blood alive and angry really. Yeah, doing his stitches. Exactly stitching himself up as well. Oh gosh, he's coming back like a villain for the show.
[00:16:36] Let's pop on over to the bar just for a big scene because I think this plays into Alfie's actions later on in the episode. We see the Raven Union drunken lads coming in, announcing themselves as VIPs as they join into
[00:16:51] the bar and after a couple of drinks start singing Ruel Britannia. I kind of like this. And again, you know, outside of the UK, if you're not from there, if you don't know the UK, I wonder how this plays.
[00:17:02] I really like the idea of the two kind of battling songs of Ruel Britannia on one side being the Raven Union's song. That's kind of very bombastic, very nationalistic, you know, kind of marries very well with the kind of sort of fascist element of the Raven Union. Interesting.
[00:17:25] You know, one about superiority or all this kind of ruling the waves all of that kind of thing. And it's contrasted with, I guess a more kind of popular song of Wilmita Gain that comes from
[00:17:41] World War Two from Vera Lynn and a much more kind of accommodating song, this idea of being separated during hard times such as in wartime. And certainly with this battle between Raven Union and English League, effectively a civil war,
[00:18:02] maybe that families are on different sides of the argument of the battle. And this idea that at some point in the future, Wilmita Gain will come back together. And yeah, it kind of feels much more inclusive.
[00:18:21] And we have Sandra drumming this up to as a response to the Raven Union's idea of patriotism, I guess. Yeah. I really like how it's filmed. I love seeing Sandra just slowly walk to the stage, sing quite silently in her own voice.
[00:18:38] She has got a microphone but singing quietly in her own voice as this drunken Ruel Britannia is going on and suddenly other people in the bar start taking up the taking up a voice with her for Wilmita Gain.
[00:18:51] It's a really inspirational moment as everybody joins in to this really inspirational song. And I was wondering when I watched this episode mentioned earlier on that there was a pause for COVID and it came back afterwards during the summer of last year, in June of last year.
[00:19:07] The queen made her speech about the hard times everybody was going through and did reference Wilmita Gain as kind of an inspirational moment. It was taken as a real inspiration for everybody who'd been locked inside their doors waiting to
[00:19:20] see family and friends and still are to this day up in March of 2021. So there was kind of an underlining of this song as being the type of inspiration that the British people needed and that people need to get them through these hard times like in COVID.
[00:19:36] And then when Verlin, who sang the popular version of this song passed away in June of 2020, this was really played all the time people were singing it together as this big moment during COVID. So I do wonder whether it was included in the story of Pennyworth and the
[00:19:52] rewriting of this episode potentially because of all that was going on during the summer of last year kind of reframing this as a moment in our time now like it was during post-war where people have been separated and couldn't return together. It felt quite moving really to be
[00:20:09] unless given how whatever it was been going through for the last year. Exactly and I think you're right, it probably feeds into Alfie's change of heart I guess in relation to his move to America. We see Alfie also
[00:20:25] imagining his dad again at the bar. Melanie comes in and he offers her to take her to America as well with his mother and Dave Boye. But when they finally get to
[00:20:38] the airport Alfie is hesitant to go and ultimately says he doesn't want to go. He hesitates on the tarmac as he's walking to the plane. Now his mother is absolutely relieved at this
[00:20:53] and is happy that she doesn't have to go to the land of birds and snakes that she's afraid of. I guess you might be going back to an empty house if she's sold all of furniture. I love it.
[00:21:08] The notion that Alfie wants to fight for his country again and their home. Dave Boye also relinquishes his dreams which part of me was thinking I wonder if Dave Boye would go but
[00:21:23] I guess they're a real tight group. I kind of would have liked to see him in the final scene in the room with the English League because he's also chosen not to go away because Alfie's not going
[00:21:36] Dave Boye is not going to go. It's a little bit it is that element of their friendship whatever Alfie says Dave Boye follows basically he's not he's mentioned him multiple times he's not
[00:21:46] the leader he's not the one that's going to come up with ideas but this idea here that they're going to stay in the UK and fight for their home Dave Boye kind of going okay right I guess
[00:21:54] that's what we're doing now takes his bags and goes off. I would have loved to have seen him in the room later on because he surely will be part of this fight. Yeah, absolutely.
[00:22:02] And though he's not a leader and not high up I think he would be the equivalent of Lucius at least you know he would at least have that kind of that kind of insight and need to have the full
[00:22:11] background details. I would have liked to see that just to kind of make sense of why he's staying rather than just Dave Boye staying because he's staying and Alfie said so. Yeah but Melanie does board the plane and off she goes. Yeah she also meets Patricia
[00:22:25] she meets Thomas's sister just as they queue up to go into the plane. Yep. So the two of them are there there is the fond farewell of you know track me down if you're ever over in America from
[00:22:39] Melanie to Alfie. Yep. So you know this is not necessarily the end of Alfred and Melanie I think they have a fairly casual relationship so you know on off they they board the plane
[00:22:52] and it takes off. Yeah and as I wrote up my notes it takes off and doesn't blow up. Yeah exactly. Absolutely waiting for that moment of it getting into the sky and blowing up it just instantly
[00:23:04] I was going well we've never heard of Melanie in comic books and never heard about this relationship at all and Patricia Patricia Wayne have we ever really heard about Patricia Wayne much
[00:23:14] in comic books or in TV shows? Not that I'm aware of. So when all your main characters suddenly have a final destination moment and decide we're not going to get on board that plane
[00:23:22] for whatever reasons they all have and we'll talk about them a little bit more in a second but if all your main characters that you've been following for two seasons decide they're not
[00:23:30] going to board a plane just before it takes off and you have a few minor characters about to take off you'd absolutely I absolutely expect that plane to blow up. Yeah well I guess from my
[00:23:39] side I actually thought that Gully was going to down the plane with a rocket launcher something like that so that's what I thought was going to happen or it was going to get caught up in
[00:23:53] sudden bombardment from the Raven Union or something like that but it doesn't it takes off and it goes off into the the the sky on its way to America. On its way to Gotham yes. Yeah exactly
[00:24:06] so we may see them later on if we do arrive in Gotham at some point at the end of Pettieworth that's the first major point for the episode let's get on to the English League and Thomas
[00:24:17] as we've been mentioning Thomas a member of the CIA not supposed to be working with the English League but all the way throughout the season he has got his connection through Martha and through
[00:24:26] the connection through the connection with Aziz that he's had connections to all the all the members of that team even though he's supposed to be against them well not against them not supporting them that's the other way around. Yeah and I guess we're as you were saying about
[00:24:39] where the stories coalesce we have and we see Thomas at the airport with Patricia as he's sending Patricia off because like Alfred Thomas and Martha have decided not to board the plane
[00:24:57] and the same for Lucius as well and all this is coming about because of the data that Lucius has gotten on Stormcloud they've passed it over to the chain up through the chain of command in the
[00:25:12] CIA but the US president is basically happy that they don't use this intel to try and prevent its use to inform the English League that it will end the war quickly and so are happy to let events
[00:25:29] take their turn. And they can wash their hands of it and pretend they never knew anything about Stormcloud if it goes quickly yeah that's a really interesting one also liked the
[00:25:37] kind of 60s Bond video call that they have set up it really it really feels like something you'd see in it I know there absolutely wasn't video calling back in the 60s but you used to see it all
[00:25:47] the time and those types of shows. It was really good and as a result all the US personnel in the embassy also leave and return to America now except for essential personnel so all I can
[00:26:00] say is I hope I didn't if I was working there I hope I wasn't going to be designated as essential so we know this awful weapon could be deployed killing everyone and well you're staying because
[00:26:14] you're essential I guess manning the telephone lines or making sure you know security front of front desk security. Yep. I guess at least they know they need gas masks well yeah so I guess
[00:26:27] they would be protected but it was all under the radar. Well the gas mask protect them you know once again essential workers being thrown under the bus by the higher ups as we see here and it is a really
[00:26:40] interesting idea though I like that this is kind of the cutting point for Thomas Wayne we have Thomas and Lucius going out for a few drinks and Lucius says to Thomas we commented on this actually on last week's episode that the relationship between Lucius and Thomas didn't
[00:26:54] seem like the kind of friendship you would have expected from the two of them from the interactions we've seen in future stuff I suppose here we see that it has now mended it has now
[00:27:05] become a good relationship Lucius says to Thomas when I saw you first I didn't like you at all I felt you're a privileged man but you've got this duality in you that I like that I find interesting
[00:27:15] you've got a different a different thing under the surface effectively and it speaks to his son it speaks to Bruce Wayne this duality that's going on that one side people absolutely hate that billionaire playboy side which is Thomas Wayne playing fast and loose with with being a
[00:27:30] privileged man with a born with a silver spoon in his mouth and this underground side that other people don't know about so Lucius being let in there in Thomas's duality so I thought that was
[00:27:40] a good call yeah this this was really good and we get the first mention of Thomas wanting to do a medical degree as well yeah so you know it's all beginning to stack up as we understand
[00:27:53] this character of Thomas Wayne which is really good and we did mention before yeah we were kind of going to know he's not a CIA agent in the future but it looks like he's he's there going
[00:28:02] to going I pretty much burn my bridges here if they find out it was me which they probably will because I'm the only person that has this information yeah I'm out so I think I'm going
[00:28:10] to go off to medical school to get my medical degree um yeah and they they shared then this the information that they have on storm cloud first of all with Martha and Martha
[00:28:21] refuses to leave but ultimately this is what brings back Martha Thomas Alfie and brings in Lucius all together as this group as they bring the secret footage of storm cloud to Prime Minister Aziz
[00:28:39] in the hope that they will force America to intervene and fight by their side if the English League are aware of this and inform the US about the the weapon yeah exactly they're
[00:28:52] just going to try and force America's hand to make sure that Americans know this is going on before the attack is the concept isn't it this idea that if they get this knowledge out there
[00:29:01] the US can't refuse they can't say that we didn't know about it effectively so that's that's quite an interesting one I know it's off screen as well I like the I like that it the
[00:29:11] convincing from Martha to make Thomas and Lucius stay is done off screen because you can kind of see Martha will not take no for an answer here she's been fighting alongside the English League
[00:29:22] she kind of goes well I'm not leaving basically and then the following morning you find out that everybody's decided they're going to stay and fight alongside the English League I kind of like that that was kept off screen because you know Martha's character you know she's this type
[00:29:32] of person that would be able to convince everybody to stay so it's a nice touch yeah it really is but moving on to the Raven Union and bet Sykes the interesting thing about
[00:29:44] how this connects with Stormcloud is that with the events of the last episode Lord Harwood is now under house arrest at his family home but he's being kept alive there's a really interesting conversation with Colonel John Salt who is now the acting chancellor of the Raven Union
[00:30:06] but he wants to keep Harwood alive so that all the orders he gives is in his name so that he has this degree of separation from using some clouds because you can see that you know Salt's pet project
[00:30:22] this awful chemical weapon he wants to use even though that you can still hear from the army from the Field Marshal that they don't want to use this at all if the need to use it is there it will
[00:30:35] be done basically by Lord Harwood by proxy and so that's kind of really interesting but yeah really I really had the explanation of that you know Salt's in leadership position because Harwood's alive he'll execute his orders in his name effectively but if he dies then it goes
[00:30:51] to an election and they lose uh he loses the leadership probably it's unlikely that it'll be Salt that's more likely to be Field Marshal Tuesday Wednesday Thursday Thursday I think yeah it's likely that he'll take over he's kind of saying my army have done everything here you guys
[00:31:10] had the plans but we don't need you anymore it's really easy now to take over the rest of England so I should be in charge is what the Field Marshal's saying to him but Salt's going hang on a second
[00:31:18] we still need the support of the people they're behind Harwood we'll put them out there we'll roll them out every time we have to do a press conference effectively roll them out to
[00:31:27] to say that he's still a leader and at the moment he's just getting over over a flu is how it's been announced on the news now yeah exactly um but I love um I love all this that you know people
[00:31:39] close to Harwood in the office who've kind of seen everything going on you know the PA contacts the psych sisters I love that when she calls up you have psych's house of pain and you know I I guess
[00:31:55] um the PA has no idea what type of shop it is but uh she informs the psych sisters who go on a rescue mission and I liked again how they brought the the psych sisters back into the fray here
[00:32:11] in a sense almost working in parallel with the you know the the regrouping of Thomas, Martha, Alfie and Lucius but just for different ends and with different people and ultimately whilst they managed to infiltrate Harwood's home um and I love the fight that they have there's some
[00:32:33] great lines from Beth and Peggy as they infiltrate to rescue uh Lord Harwood um you know Peggy goes right now go and get your toiletries and a fresh pair of underpants and we've got to leave but before
[00:32:49] they managed to get out because well he diverted as Peggy puts it um then they're surrounded by by the army because the alarm has been raised the only thing here was whether it's because of
[00:33:01] the medication that Harwood was on and maybe he's not taking it now I'm not entirely sure how he had become so lucid and that he knew it was Colonel Salt all along because he's not been in
[00:33:14] touch with Francis Gawnt he's the the military have effectively put him under house arrest he's not got good ties there he mustn't have been in contact with Colonel Salt so okay yes
[00:33:27] maybe he's put all the pieces of the puzzle together in his head but I just felt like I guess it's shorthand for getting there but again it's a bit like with Gully I was just like you
[00:33:38] know there's a there's a leap there from Harwood um I thought if he was under house arrest he would still be taking the medication and why this change uh why and how has he gotten to the
[00:33:53] understanding that actually Salt is the one that has been uh planning this all along and has been undermining him and you know his close friends Francis Gawnt and and the psych sisters you know
[00:34:09] so yeah it that was it was just that leap of faith I guess a bit like with Gully whereas it just didn't connect a little bit for me but nonetheless um I love these three together
[00:34:22] they're great together absolutely yeah I think it's not that much of a leap for Harwood I think he is when lucid he is a very intelligent man um I really have seen that throughout the last uh the last
[00:34:33] season and I like the conversation between him and him and Bert and Peggy because he's kind of going well I lost it a little bit and Bert's kind of going well yeah okay everybody
[00:34:41] gets angry and kills people you know that's kind of bets Motor Saber and has been um but she understands that he is a very smart person and that occasionally his anger can uh can go
[00:34:53] overboard and he'll end up killing somebody um but I do think there is that medication that he's not taking we don't see him take it once in this episode and we've regularly seen
[00:35:02] I think at least every episode we've had him taking one tablet yes at some point so I think the tablets had something to do with it we realized that earlier on in the season but
[00:35:10] I think here because he's not been forced to take them every day he's kind of coming back to himself and realizing who benefits most from me being trapped in here it's going to be John Salt
[00:35:20] right um so yeah exactly and the other thing I was surprised that maybe Kate um wasn't with the Sykes as well and that she came along to help them out I guess she's keeping the um
[00:35:35] the House of Horrors open for the SNM community in London so yeah I was interested that she wasn't sort of brought in on this that would have been kind of quite good but I couldn't see you being
[00:35:49] brought in on the mission but with the Sykes sisters this is definitely a Sykes sisters type of deal but the fact that it was so big a moment in the earlier episode when they finally
[00:35:59] got together went best and uh and Katie got together Katie tells her this is it no more violence nobody else gets hurt nobody else dies and now Beth's on a mission where they've definitely
[00:36:10] beaten and and hurts people quite badly there was no moment at all where Kate was consulted about us or a conversation there where Kate's wondering what's going on here and Beth explains to her
[00:36:22] they have to do this or anything like that it feels like that feels like a missed scene a missed moment between them there as to as to why Kate would be okay at this you know
[00:36:32] yeah that's true but ultimately they're surrounded Harwood says that he will only deal with salt but then they kind of settle in for the evening to have a good old catch up it seems which I thought
[00:36:45] was kind of uh nice but the the next day there is the you know the sacrifice of Harwood to allow Beth and Peggy to escape in order to get vital information to Francis Gorms and to
[00:37:04] apologize on his behalf because he knows that salt had been manipulating them and but ultimately here Harwood makes a stand and saying that the army need to put down their arms otherwise they will
[00:37:20] be tried for treason but salt is there trying to tell the army not to kill him not to fight he needs his this deniability he needs Harwood to survive but ultimately and Harwood is shot and and killed by
[00:37:36] the the army as he draws his own weapon against them and and salt so yeah this is the end of Harwood and he is cut down at the front of his family home but it is the sacrifice to allow
[00:37:52] the psych sisters to reach Francis Gorm so interesting yeah it seems pretty definitive that this is this is the end of Harwood um it is the final scene of the episode it is really important to solve that Harwood stays alive so you wonder is there a way
[00:38:08] that he isn't dead uh from this scene you wonder if uh if this if he comes back next episode and he's all patched up because it's really important to salt salt being a very
[00:38:18] experimental scientist possibly yeah being able to bring Harwood back but it does make sense here that um that they would write Harwood out of the show so that salt is now in a really precarious
[00:38:28] position as the leader of the Raven Union you'd hope that by the end if this is the final episode of penny worth coming up and there is the final battle to happen between the English League and the Raven Union that the English League are going to persevere because
[00:38:42] they have Alfie on their side they have Thomas on their side they're probably going to be the winners of this war yeah and maybe have the US on their side in the end maybe um they will
[00:38:52] change their sort of backing I guess for for this you need to kind of destabilize the Raven Union and have them offside so what I think we're at the final part of the episode
[00:39:04] here so what I think is the plan here is best Peggy go and talk to Francis go on to has already made that connection with Prime Minister Aziz and already kind of dedicated that that she wants to
[00:39:14] stop Storm Kled at all costs I would say that's what we're going to get we're going to get everybody on the same side on the English League side versus salt and the Raven Union yeah
[00:39:23] they'll they'll come together Francis and the sites will be after salt and certainly when they hear of Harwood's death yeah and in doing so there will be this um meet up with Thomas Alfie
[00:39:37] Lucius and Martha as they're trying to stop Storm Cloud yeah and and they will you know their aims will come together and they'll move forward as one so yeah I guess that's I mean it does feel
[00:39:51] then that we are moving into the final episode yeah you know unless it's three episodes of war which is well that is true yeah and it could yeah that is perfectly possible a lot of things happen
[00:40:04] and but certainly uh yeah this this feels like it's all coming together quite nicely just quickly as well on Harwood we do get to see his um his his stubby nose again as his prosthetic his metal
[00:40:21] prosthetic I guess Falls office is trying to sit underneath his childhood tree yeah yeah chest not just metal it's a gold prosthetic of course it is Harwood uh have to absolutely say give a huge
[00:40:35] shout out I suppose to Jason Fleming and his performance throughout the series he's been so central to the show and his his maniacal side all the way throughout the series has really
[00:40:45] felt like the comic book villain building up you know that that's Penguin in Gotham or Riddler in Gotham that that kind of character who came from nothing or came from a major privilege in this show
[00:40:57] but but came from being um a very simple character to being this really complex villain towards the end of the series I really like that him getting a final moment here and this powerful
[00:41:08] moment where he's standing with effectively in front of an execution squad which used to be his army and now no longer is I thought it was a really effective way of saying goodbye to the
[00:41:20] Harwood character that was really good definitely any notes or quotes from the episode John? No none from me as I say the only quotes I had was um you know bring your toiletries and a fresh
[00:41:32] pair of underpants um it's just the delivery from Peggy is really good and and then it is the classic I just remember it as a child the classic you know oh we've missed our boot you know um if
[00:41:47] you hadn't divvied I've not heard the word divvied for a while and you know would be in in better shape for escaping effectively. Exactly exactly and it's from the same scene as well I love uh
[00:41:59] the love the banter again between bet and Peggy about that where uh where Bet's pointing out you know you were nagging him that's why we're delayed and Peggy going I'm not nagging and I was just pointing
[00:42:10] things out and Bet's saying that's the nature of nagging it's just constantly pointing things out so you can tell again the sisters have a really good banter between the two of them I like that
[00:42:20] they've had this scene uh in the episode that was really good. This could be the start of a beautiful friendship no it won't I just absolutely love that they take the main Casablanca line
[00:42:30] and turn it into uh Alfie going nah I don't think so. That's it for our discussion about Pennyworth episode seven of season two the Bloody Mary John overall how was your rate of this episode?
[00:42:42] I would give this three and a half fresh pair of underpants out of five and they brought everyone together there were a few things around Gully and with Harwood were their leaps of faith
[00:42:54] I could see you know absolutely how they had could get the I just wanted it spelled out more and but I and again I think you know this was bringing all the different characters together
[00:43:06] for that final push on the Raven Union and to disrupt salt so you know I thought that was really really good I think maybe it was a little rushed I guess if they hadn't had COVID it could
[00:43:21] have just been done across a couple of episodes you know there could have been more with Gully and Melanie and Alfie like I just think that that fight scene just showed the intensity there
[00:43:35] and it that could have just spilt out really sort of well into other scenes you know between Alfie and Gully and I guess we'll still get that but it's difficult to know how if they're
[00:43:51] off to Raven Union headquarters to stop Storm Cloud because otherwise Gully's just going to be maybe with the Raven Union I don't know but so I guess under normal times this may have played out
[00:44:05] over a couple of episodes or at least some of the bigger plot lines and so because we do know from one of the other shows we cover from Wandavision we do know how the COVID restrictions can
[00:44:16] seriously affect a show if you've been in a break for a few months you know as I said the scene that I was expected to see in the episode given given the build up is just that
[00:44:25] Casey Bess interaction as to why Casey would think it's okay for Beth to go out on a violent mission and potentially that's just because the actress couldn't come back yeah exactly that did happen
[00:44:35] so many shows so you know overall it was a really you know I thought it was a good episode and for me I think as I say I think Gully and Melanie I thought that was really well done
[00:44:48] very disturbing you know raw tough to watch I loved Beth Sykes and Peggy Sykes coming in to rescue Harwood I'm glad they got back together as well and just all the everyone coming back
[00:45:03] together because they've kind of been separated out this season for the most part I think was just really really good so yeah three and a half fresh pair of underpants out of five
[00:45:14] excellent that's pretty good that's pretty good for this type of episode I guess yeah it's a recommend good recommendation absolutely absolutely that's it for our discussion about Pennyworth if you haven't subscribed to the podcast yet and you want to hear the other
[00:45:26] stuff that we covered you can always go over to our website at tvpodcastindustries.com subscribe to the podcast there or on Apple Podcasts Spotify wherever else you get your podcasts we are currently covering Falcon and the Winter Soldier on Disney Plus which started
[00:45:41] on Friday March 19th their first episode is out and available right now as we go in depth into the new Marvel Disney show we just recently covered Wandavision as well as I mentioned we have every
[00:45:51] episode of that show on there too so make sure you subscribe to the podcast over there we'd love to hear your thoughts about Pennyworth as the season comes to a close we'd love to hear
[00:45:59] any thoughts you have about the show you can email us to feedback at tvpodcastindustries.com with any thoughts you have or you can pop on over to our facebook group at facebook.com slash groups slash tv podcast industries absolutely we will return with Pennyworth season two episode
[00:46:16] eight The Hangman's Noose which will be out next week we hope you'll return to join us as well and join us for our podcasts covering the other shows Falcon and the Winter Soldier and of
[00:46:30] course Wandavision if you haven't already seen it because yes it'd be great to have you over on tv podcast industries for the shows that we're covering absolutely one last thing then before we
[00:46:42] head out of the DC world once again we did mention earlier on big moment for DC this week as Zach Snyder's Justice League finally got released on HBO Max and Skyrim in the UK not going to go
[00:46:55] into major spoilers for this because well the movie came out a couple of years ago but this is Zach Snyder's definitive version of the Justice League his version is about the one of you with the... Just under four hours. Just over four hours yeah yeah four nine parts
[00:47:09] ten parts in the movie so just quickly talk about our thoughts about what we thought of the movie we have already reviewed the original Justice League, Josh Sweden's Justice League as
[00:47:19] it's kind of now being called and we kind of enjoyed that we had a bit of fun in the cinema watching that right? Yeah well it was it was fine and you know... It wasn't the greatest
[00:47:28] movie in the world and considering the cast like considering we had six major heroes from the DC universe coming together it's kind of sad that it wasn't this massive moment for the Justice League
[00:47:40] but what did you think of the Zach Snyder version John? I really really enjoyed it you know we took our time watching it it is four hours and I just thought it was really
[00:47:53] really good and I loved the the additional storyline and I thought the whole battle sequence at the end with Steppenwolf was just so much better done than the original and it was great to see Cyborg given more screen time just because he's absolutely central to the mother boxes
[00:48:22] and really plays an important part in that final scene. I think it was great that they didn't have the family in the toxic part of Russia where Steppenwolf had set up their base to bring the
[00:48:34] mother boxes together so I thought this was... It just made more sense actually for me and it's hard not to compare it to Justice League because fundamentally it's the same rough storyline but it's amazing to think how much was added here and how much context was added
[00:48:57] I never felt confused by the motivations of the bad guys in this and never felt confused by why a team like the Justice League would need to come together to fight this guy. It felt so much
[00:49:08] more cohesive as a movie so much more enjoyable as a movie now that said I know after watching a four hour piece of work I absolutely know if you wanted to get this in the cinema five years ago
[00:49:21] or four years ago there are things you could edit out and after watching this now and thinking back on the Joss Whedon version of this or the Warner Brothers version of this let's say you can see how
[00:49:34] easy they go okay we need to shorten this movie down by two hours if we take out everything about Cyborg from this movie that's gonna by cutting off all the extra storylines to that
[00:49:44] and just introducing the character that's gonna save us two and a half hours grand let's remove that out of there and just tie everything else together but by taking out Cyborg and for the
[00:49:53] most part from the movie you've pulled the heart out of it yeah that's the feels like there's moments in this movie with Rayfisher Cyborg which are really good like there's so much that his character does to mark himself as a reasonable character to be part of the Justice
[00:50:09] League you know in in the original version it feels like there's a guy over there with the power to control computers let's stick him in the Justice League whereas it feels like
[00:50:20] each person gets their moment in this movie where they are justified as a hero that can be part of this central six superheroes it's the weird choice isn't it because as you say he
[00:50:30] is the linchpin Cyborg for dealing with the mother boxes and to have cut out that I know it's you're having to introduce the character within this film as well and to you know
[00:50:46] pardon pun flesh him out but then for me that needed to be done in in the the editing that was done originally and you know ultimately you can play much better with shorthand
[00:50:59] with the established characters from the previous movies of man of steel of batman v superman and with gal Gadot and with Wonder Woman because they've already been introduced for me the three characters that you're introducing in this movie were Aquaman the Flash and Cyborg and they needed
[00:51:20] the time because even the flashes and the time travel element made much more sense here as well and I love the flash in the first edit effectively of Justice League so
[00:51:34] but he was a fun throwaway character that's the thing you know in the original version it felt like there's the guy with the funny lines give him more funny lines here you actually do get a
[00:51:43] story arc for him and if you're doing a movie like this it feels like give each one of them story arc why wouldn't you because that's why you have six characters there you might as
[00:51:53] well cut one of them out if you're not going to give them a story arc so it felt more balanced in that way and I felt as well it was you know going seeing the ancient battles with
[00:52:05] about trying to prevent the unity of the the mother boxes with the the gods of ancient Greece like the Atlanteans Zeus and all these different characters and the Amazonians as well that
[00:52:18] are that constant here and and then you know equating it I felt that link to then the superheroes it made a lot of sense here and I liked how got more of that flavour of the
[00:52:32] how Steppenwolf despises the Amazonians with Gal Gadot and that that felt like a kind of a nice sub arc through this as well which I really enjoyed yeah absolutely the way we watched it
[00:52:49] I think makes so much more sense as well you don't get this type of budget on a mini series on TV you just don't you get some great mini series four or five episodes of a
[00:52:59] of a show that you binge watch and that's how we watch this the idea of having those chapter breaks that Zack Snyder put in where he put in eight chapter breaks an epilogue and
[00:53:07] a prologue and so you can actually just go watch it to whatever break you want to we broke off and made dinner in between yeah exactly and it felt like it was easily
[00:53:18] able to be followed like you know there's no way they would have made this as a mini series with that budget a couple of years ago but you can with these four out of four hours
[00:53:27] and that's something we'd regularly watch would be binging four hours of TV show yeah we actually just did it with the with Drive to Survive the Formula One documentary that's about five hours long yeah effectively and we've been that all in the day as well so
[00:53:39] it's not on her job so it doesn't feel overly long when you have those kind of breaks where you can go right grand let's walk out but I can't imagine sitting in the cinema
[00:53:48] for that four hours watching the whole thing without seeing it before so like Lord of the Rings when those extended cuts came out you watch it in the cinema because you've seen it before and you
[00:53:58] know how good it is so you can go and watch that but I can't imagine having not seen this before going to the cinema for the four hour cost so I can I can totally understand the business
[00:54:07] business idea from Warner Brothers of cutting it down absolutely but they absolutely ruined this movie by doing it the way they did I can yeah I believe that they could have edited the two and a half hour theatrical release or however long it was much better
[00:54:27] and I think it's possible because there is so much material there and and as I say I think given what the story was and how this final battle happens and plays out and comes together
[00:54:43] through the course of the movie then I think you that to me should have been preserved for sure and so I think it could have been edited differently to preserve that. It's just even that final battle as you say everybody getting their moment it feels like
[00:54:59] everybody using their powers combined so that's what you do that's what they did in The Avengers every single character gets their moment to shine effectively and that's what they do in the cartoons that's what they're doing the comic books everybody's powers are required to be this
[00:55:13] massive threat so you have to have that and they didn't have it in the original Justice Leaker didn't feel like it didn't feel earned it didn't feel like it was there so overall absolutely recommend yeah absolutely watch it definitely take your time with it take it
[00:55:27] treat it like it's a show you can watch weekly watch an hour of it every week until you've you've finished it and if the four hour runtime is daunting it's perfectly built so you can watch
[00:55:36] it over the course of a few days which I loved I really thought that was a good choice that was a little more spoilery than I thought it was going to be but that's okay I think I think most
[00:55:45] people have watched it seems to have been watched by a lot of people out there thanks so much once again for joining us on The Pennyworth podcast from TV podcast industry back next week with episode eight of season two of Pennyworth the hangman's noose and as we mentioned
[00:55:58] we're also covering falcons and the winter soldier will be back with episode two of that over on our main feed on TV podcast industries yeah absolutely thanks so much for joining us fellow governors and Gothamites we'll speak with you again soon bye bye
[00:56:16] you know Alfred I think this could be the beginning of a beautiful friendship I doubt it he never knows do you