Daredevil Born Again Episodes 5 and 6 Review

[00:00:00] This is the Defenders Podcast on TV Podcast Industries and we're here talking about Daredevil Born Again, Episode 5, With Interest and Episode 6, Excessive Force. What's your name? Matthew Murdoch. Murdoch? Oh Jesus Christ, not just a blind solicitor with a murder complex, but an Irishman. Where's your family from then Mr Murdoch?

[00:00:27] Hell's Kitchen. Hell's Kitchen? Do you hear that lads? Hell's Kitchen? Before the big swim, Mr Smartass. I know, I was raised in an orphanage. Jesus wept. A blind solicitor and hold for it, an orphan? Are you bloody serious? You're like a regular wee Charles Dickens character, aren't you?

[00:00:51] Welcome back fellow Defenders. This is Defenders Podcast on TV Podcast Industries and we are looking at two episodes of Daredevil Born Again, Episode 5, With Interest and Episode 6, Excessive Force.

[00:01:27] Just what you need to open that jar of pickles. I am one of your hosts, John. I am one of your other hosts, Derek. Well this is odd. We've had some problems with Chris's audio, who was with us from the start of the podcast, so I have had to edit around him a little bit. But he does join us a little bit later. You'll never guess where he joins us from where he suddenly appears. But he will be with us. Hopefully it doesn't affect the podcast too much.

[00:01:53] I will say, I'll say this to you guys, since I said to John while we were watching the first episode, I'm very annoyed that they started the first episode. They set the first episode on St. Patrick's Day after my whole discussion last week about St. Patrick's Day and both of you looking at me going, but St. Patrick's Day was four days ago, why would you talk about St. Patrick's Day now? And then this week, the entire episode taking place on St. Patrick's Day, full of green, full of Irish jokes, full of American-Irish jokes,

[00:02:20] and discussions about the difference between Protestants on St. Patrick's Day and Catholics on St. Patrick's Day and Guinness everywhere. I was like, wow, why did they do this this week? It would have worked so well with my discussion last week. And how early is early to be drunk and face down? It is a bit weird, isn't it? Like one week? Would it have mattered?

[00:02:44] We are back for two episodes of Daredevil this week. What a great little present for us, getting two episodes back to back. The first episode, and we're going to go into full details as always, but this first episode being this kind of standalone story of the day in the life of Matt Murdock, and then the second episode dealing with the big kind of wider arc, bringing in the big villain and having both of our villain and hero going back to their old ways fully. We get them back in their own ways for the most part. Yeah, absolutely. Kind of cool having both of those episodes back to back, wasn't it?

[00:03:14] It was. I thought it was quite a good doubleheader, really. I really enjoyed it. And I thought this kind of episode five, it did feel a little standalone, but I just really liked it. I liked having Mr. Khan back on the screen, and I thought it was a really good point, and I think it actually did connect in with the second episode quite nicely.

[00:03:35] And again, I think just what this show is doing really well is just that mirroring of Wilson Fisk and Matt Murdock in these episodes, and sort of intercutting the scenes of the two. So certainly for episode six, they did that kind of at the start of the episode as well as then a bit, you know, much more sort of forcefully in towards the end of the episode.

[00:04:05] So yeah, I really enjoyed these two episodes. The reason these two episodes were released together is actually because of Andor. Andor starts either the same week as the finale of this or the week afterwards. I think it's the week afterwards because there's three episodes coming out the week afterwards. So it is basically to pull it together. But I think also that first episode is really standalone. And if you were coming to it as the fan of the old Daredevil Netflix shows and want to see the full narrative, I do think that episode five pretty much has that narrative that stays on its own.

[00:04:35] It only has Matt. It doesn't have Kingpin at all. It's just an episode set in a bank. So not having a second episode this week probably would have disappointed some people. But having both of these episodes together gives lots of joy to all the Daredevil fans, right? Yeah, absolutely. So that's a good choice for me. Yes, I think so. But just before we get into our spoiler-filled discussion, fellow defenders, just a quick reminder to head on over to our website, if you haven't done already, to tvpodcastindustries.com,

[00:05:03] where you can subscribe to any good or evil podcast catcher of your choice to listen to the podcast. And also just a reminder for your thoughts, theories, observations and feedback. Yeah, we love to hear from you so that we can read out your feedback at the end of each podcast. Please send in those ruminations to feedback at tvpodcastindustries.com.

[00:05:31] Or you can, of course, leave a comment on our spoiler posts over on our Facebook group at facebook.com forward slash groups forward slash TV Podcast Industries. Absolutely. That's also the place where you send your answers to our Josie's Bar Quiz. Two more questions will be available later on in this episode or over at our website at tvpodcastindustries.com. I did get a chance to put up the questions already over there. There's the questions up there for episode one to four.

[00:06:00] And the other two questions will be up after we release this episode. Excellent stuff. Let us get into our coverage of episode five with interest and episode six, excessive force. Tell us some of the episode details there, Mr. O'Neill. I sure will. I sure will. Well, we had just been taking the episode names and giving some description behind them. But I don't think there's much need to describe why the one set in the bank looking for a loan is called With Interest. Really? But I think that's understandable.

[00:06:29] But the episode was directed by Jeffrey Nachmanoff, who directed episode four. I forgot to mention last week that he directed episode nine of the excellent Lovecraft Country that we covered here on TV Podcast Industries. He's also a writer as well, not just a director of TV shows, but his biggest writing gig. He was one of the co-writers on one of your favorite movies, John, The Day After Tomorrow.

[00:06:51] That's one of your absolute favorites, partially because Jake Gyllenhaal is in it, but also because it deals with the world getting turned into a massive icy glacier, which is your dream on occasion. Yeah, it is. Although the mechanism for it annoys me all the time and it annoys me each time I watch it, but I do like the movie. Wait, is that the one where the magnetic poles have fallen out of enlightenment?

[00:07:16] It's the one where the old plucky Brits decide to stay in a hut that is clearly not insulated for purposes, to drink whiskey and literally freeze with the glass of whiskey in their hands. I'm like, okay, grand, whatever. But you've got a whiskey watch in us, you've got the world freezing over. I don't do whiskey watch on every show I watch. You do. I really don't.

[00:07:45] I do it if I go into a whiskey shop, maybe, but not on The Day After Tomorrow. Yes, it is. I do. I love The Day After Tomorrow. I do like disaster movies. Yes. Whether they come from natural nature or whether it's something like, you know. Moonfall where the moon fell. Oh my God, that was such a good one. Yeah, yeah. That's true. I am sorry. I love that.

[00:08:11] That is one of my, like, that was such a good one where, and it was just like, the AI. It was all the AI. And you're like. I do quite like that. Yeah. And things like the Poseidon adventure, you know, those kind of. Well, yes. He's a classic. That one got nominated for Oscars. Like, that's a different class to the ones that we've had over the last couple of years. 2012 is probably the one that I have watched more than I care to admit. But I have watched The Day After Tomorrow many, many times. Jeffrey Naknoff writing that and directing this episode, which is kind of cool. Excellent.

[00:08:40] This episode, the first episode was written by Gronje Godfrey. She was a writer and producer on CW Arrowverse, particularly The Flash Legends of Tomorrow, and was also a consulting producer on Secret Invasion. So not her first time working for Marvel for this episode of the show. Excellent. Good one, Gronje. Absolutely, Gronje. And on to the sixth episode, episode six, Excessive Force. I think, again, not too much to explain here. There's definitely some excessive force being used in this episode. But the episode was directed by David Boyd.

[00:09:10] He directed at least one episode of every single season of The Walking Dead from season two to season ten, where he dropped out of the show. Didn't get to direct an episode in season 11 because he directed four episodes in season ten. There you go. So he closed out his time there back in season ten. Okay, when it was still good then. Oh, absolutely. Season 11 was awesome. So he was there at the start when it was amazing, through some of the bad years, and there right to the end, and right to season ten when it was also amazing.

[00:09:38] Yeah, season ten was the end, wasn't it? The last season was season 11. Sorry, I mean towards the end, yeah. The dip was like season six and seven, I think. Or seven or eight. Somewhere around there. But this episode was written by Thomas Wong. This is his only episode of Daredevil Born Again so far. So hopefully we'll see some more from him in the future. Because episode six, really well written episode. Really enjoyed it. Agreed. Good stuff. John, you're going to have to do double duty. Do you want to give us the synopsis for Daredevil Born Again, season one, episode five and episode six?

[00:10:08] To be sure, on St. Patrick's Day 2027, Matt Murdock goes to New York Mutual Bank to discuss a loan for his law firm Murdock & McDuffie. But his application is denied by assistant bank manager Youssef Khan due to Matt's penchant for taking on clients who cannot afford to pay. After Matt Murdock leaves the bank, a group of criminals led by the Northern Irishman Devlin enter the bank and take everyone hostage.

[00:10:34] They work for Luca and are attempting to steal the $1.8 million he needs to pay to the tariff imposed on them by Vanessa Fisk. But Matt hears them and tells Kirsten McDuffie to call the police while he returns to the bank. When the police arrive, Devlin talks with the hostage negotiator, Detective Angie Kim. Inside the bank, the would-be robbers use Youssef Khan to access the bank vault.

[00:11:00] While Youssef stalls for time at the vault, Matt takes down two of the robbers and uses his abilities to open the vault. Inside, they find a rare diamond which the robbers are targeting. Matt pretends to give the diamond to Devlin as the police enter the bank. Devlin passes it along to an accomplice among the hostages. He later realises that she does not have the diamond, but instead a boiled sweet.

[00:11:26] Trying to escape, Devlin disguises himself as a police officer and leaves, but is caught and beaten by a masked Matt Murdock. Later, Matt secretly returns the real diamond and accepts an offer to have dinner with Youssef's family, including his marvellous daughter, Kamala. In episode 6, after the foiled bank robbery, the leader of the tracksuit mafia, Luca,

[00:11:52] visits Mayor Fisk and refuses to pay the $1.8 million owed to Victor. But Fisk raises the amount to $2.8 million and gives Luca to the end of the week to pay it. He then learns from the city's sanitation department that the murals painted across the city by a street artist called Muse are painted using human blood. They believe he's a serial killer with more than 60 victims.

[00:12:19] When Muse is confronted by two women in the street, he kills them and leaves their bodies next to a new mural as public confirmation of his actions. Mayor Fisk learns of this during a fundraiser with the city's elites, including socialite Jack Duquesne, who are against his port rebuild plans. To deal with Muse, Fisk establishes an anti-vigilante task force with additional powers

[00:12:46] and he recruits notorious police officers such as Officer Powell and former detective Cole North. Meanwhile, Angela del Toro believes her uncle Hector was investigating Muse before he was murdered and asks Matt Murdock to continue the work of the White Tiger. When Matt refuses, she goes herself and is abducted by Muse. Alerted to her disappearance by Angela's mother, Matt finally decides to suit up as Daredevil.

[00:13:14] He finds Muse's lair and rescues Angela, but Muse gets away. Meanwhile, Fisk gives Adam an axe and challenges him to a fight in which Fisk beats him and drags him back to his cell. With two episodes, lots going on there, but thanks for the synopsis, John. Yes, you can take a break from talking if you want. Thank you, thank you, yes. I can't though because I'm introducing the episode. You certainly are. Oh yes, here we go. I am the lead here. The prosecutor, the defender.

[00:13:42] The defender, the prosecutor, the quiz master. Hey. All three, I am. Yes, true. So, without further ado, let us get into our case notes. Our top five case notes across these two episodes. First up on episode five, case note number one. Welcome back, Mr. Youssef Khan. Yes, indeed. That gavel is almost like a knock at his door. It is. To get some nice food.

[00:14:13] Yes, lovely to see Youssef Khan, one of our favourite characters across all of the MCU TV shows. He's the fun dad of Miss Marvel, basically. Yes, fun. Look how proud he is. The minute someone comes in for a loan, even though he's going to deny the loan of Matt Murdock, he's like, have you heard about my daughter? My daughter, the wonderful superhero. Oh, she's not a superhero. My daughter's amazing. But also, there is a superhero called Miss Marvel that I happen to have a Funko Pop, a purposeful Funko Pop on my desk of. No connection between the two, I promise. I agree.

[00:14:43] Yeah, fun dad, but just evil bank assistant manager. Yes, yes. I love seeing him here. It's really fun to bring him in. It's a lot easier to bring himself in versus Miss Marvel herself. And just by name dropping her and customised Funko Pop, kind of really just connects a few dots. Yeah. Saves if he quit, too. Yeah, exactly. That's who. She is a movie star now. Uh-huh.

[00:15:11] Compared, well, her dad is two, technically. Yes. He did get to go to space. He was in the Marvels, yeah. So, I just think it's nice to bring it back to what could be considered the street-level heroes. Miss Marvel in the comics was a street-level hero for the longest period of time. Yeah. Before she went off to do some of the other pieces. So, like, and that first run of comics was basically about her and Jersey just doing her thing. Exactly.

[00:15:39] There's an iconic, and I think they turned it into a poster as well. The iconic kind of poster, and it was a cover of her just up on the top of a streetlight in Jersey. Yeah. Just dangling her legs and, like, just looking out into Jersey and beyond. Yeah.

[00:15:56] So, again, connecting these potentially to kind of street-level, and then you bring in Spider-Man, another street-level, all these smaller, homegrown New York folks, and you do then get a large kind of pool of secondary characters to play with. Yeah.

[00:16:17] Because, let's be fair, right now, Matt doesn't have, he has, we didn't bring much secondary characters over from the original Netflix ones. No. We may have brought two, killed one, and the others disappeared. And as we know with the production of the show, those were brought over well after this part of the show was filmed to add to the beginning of the show as well.

[00:16:41] So, yeah, there's lots of people to connect with, but it is kind of cool seeing this moment with Youssef here where he's saying that Kamala's out of the city. She's all the way over in LA visiting her friend, who we know as Bruno from the Miss Marvel TV show. So, a nice little tie-in there. He doesn't have to say it, so he'll have to watch the show to find out what she's doing over in LA, but it's a nice little tie-in there. And again, it's just the pride of Youssef Khan for his daughter, even though he can't tell everybody that she's the superhero of Jersey City.

[00:17:10] He is basically telling everybody that his daughter is the superhero. Well, I think that's what's really nice about this. You know, he's such a great character in the TV show. You know, had the nice sort of cameo element, really, in the Marvel's movie. And it was just good to see him here and actually, you know, being put in an awkward, difficult, dangerous position. And I just like the interaction between him and Matt.

[00:17:38] You know, there's a moment where you can see he's struggling to try and sort of get the key to open the safety deposit boxes. And you have Matt just putting his hand on his back, calming him down and so on. And I think, you know, you could see here with Devlin and his sort of team of burglars and thieves here that they weren't messing around.

[00:18:02] And so actually, Youssef Khan is in danger here as the bank manager for the day. I mean, I'm slightly assuming that the actual bank manager possibly is in on it as well. Hence why he decided to not show up. And I kind of like that it did put him in danger here, but ultimately it worked out.

[00:18:27] And I like the fact that despite being so lovely and, you know, such a great character from the TV show, Ms. Marvel, he's the one that is giving the bad news to Matt that he can't give the loan, he can't extend the loan because ultimately he has the wrong clients. Whilst he agrees with that privately as the bank employee, he cannot give them the loan.

[00:18:56] So what does he say that despite your firm giving and providing such a great public service, those are exactly the criteria that make it impossible for us to give you a loan. So it's a lovely idea, but make sure you have the money to back it up because you can't get loans from banks for that. It sounds like Matt's been going around multiple banks trying to get this money up. And we've heard the conversation a little bit with him and McDuffie over the last couple of episodes about the fact that they do need to take on more cases where they're getting paid for them.

[00:19:22] Yes, she's absolutely with them on the other cases, but they do need to take cases where they get paid money, which kind of was the constant refrain back in the days of Daredevil season one, two and three, that Matt would always be the one that would give away the services for free and the rest of it were going, we need to eat as well. That would be nice. So, yeah, so it's a good setup. And again, this kind of episode set in one location where we have this bank robbery going on as well, I think is a really good choice.

[00:19:48] But you can feel it being part of the MCU Disney Plus shows. While it is obviously much harder and much more adults than the other Disney Plus shows that we've seen, you can see it being part of those shows, this particular episode, as opposed to the episodes we've seen in Daredevil one again this season or in the Netflix Daredevil shows, I think. You can kind of get that feeling this would fit quite well alongside the episode where Matt Murdock cameoed with She-Hulk, for example.

[00:20:16] Even though it's not a comedy episode, you could see it sitting in that world. Yeah, I know. I agree with that. Yeah, I think they're just making Matt Murdock comfortable in the MCU. Exactly. Here's all the different connections. And yeah, maybe I think to sort of Chris's point around, you know, a nice little subset of characters here, possibly leading to something that could work out in a different way, you know? Yeah. Not necessarily the Avengers, obviously not the Thunderbolts.

[00:20:45] New Avengers, no. But yeah, that street level of... New Defenders, like, is that what you mean? Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Even that's where my brain's going. I'm like, you don't... Okay, Spider-Man, Tom Holland is hard to get. But, like, you could have a more street level Defenders again. And there's nothing stopping them bringing back Mike Coulter and, like, Kristen Ritter and all those.

[00:21:12] And even for a couple of episodes to pass a baton, almost. Yeah, they've certainly said they're in talks. Marvel has said they're absolutely not ruling it out. If Daredevil works out well, there's a high possibility that all those shows may come back in different ways or all those characters may come back in different ways. But the important part is when they were made for Netflix, it was basically giving five characters to Netflix to say, here you go, make it for your show. They couldn't really interact with major cast members from other shows.

[00:21:40] I suppose the most notorious one from our perspective was that Clark Gregg, who played Agent Coulson on Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D., always wanted to interact with Iron Fist, repeatedly said, while his show was on TV and all the Defenders shows were on, that he'd love to appear in the Netflix show. And they couldn't work it out, even though they were being made by the same company. Whereas now, because it's in the MCU, they have to build it so that Mac can have any character walk in off the street and go, I don't know, someone robbed my mom's house. Can you defend me in court?

[00:22:08] Or whatever it is, he should have that ability to be able to interact with anybody in the MCU. It doesn't have to be the Defenders, but it would be fab to see them back in some form in the future. Yeah, exactly. So having Yusuf Khan here is a cool idea, having him step over from a different show, see him in his adult life, in his adult working life, and it doesn't have to be a superhero show. This is a cool idea. Exactly.

[00:22:30] But I think let us move on to sort of the boiled ham and two-boiled veg of this show, which is the main point. Cabbage and potatoes, not just two-boiled veg, John. Boiled cabbage and boiled potatoes. Yeah, and boiled ham. Exactly, yeah. Exactly. The meat and two-veg of case note number two.

[00:22:55] Yes, the St. Patrick's Day bank robbery, opening to a traditional Irish song, Rocky Road to Dublin, by the American band The Young Dubliners from California. Yes. Hugely international there. But yeah, it was kind of kinetic, frenetic. Yeah. And then, yeah, we go into the bank, which kind of cuts it off from all that celebration.

[00:23:21] It looks so boring in the bank when following on from that music coming into the episode, doesn't it? Yeah. I was just so proud of them for not choosing the Dropkick Murphys. If you're going to choose a false Irish-American band, just don't choose Dropkick Murphys. Everybody does it. Make a new choice. They go for The Young Dubliners. They've been around since 1988. They're a well-known Irish-American band. So choose them. It's a better choice, and especially if they're a traditional song. They could have gone Flogging Molly.

[00:23:51] Yeah, that's also... Flogging Molly is very close to Dropkick Murphys and a bit more well-known. But that's the problem, Chris. That's the point. It's choosing something slightly different. Some people actually may have thought it was an Irish band there. Oh, true. But, you know, they do have that Irish-American rock version, which you can always tell is different from an Irish trad song. I'm just glad they didn't do a Cranberries track. I don't think Zombie is the best St. Patrick's Day song in the world.

[00:24:20] Well, it may be for some people at 9.15am. It might be. It might be. Speaking of which, there is that moment. Look, we're Irish. We're going to talk about some of the things that are in here from our perspective. Of course, that's why you listen to us rather than listen to some other podcasts. Or in addition to other podcasts, that moment when Detective Kim arrives and the guy looks at her going, why isn't O'Flagy here, basically? And she goes, well, all the Irish cops, they're probably in a pool full of Guinness right now.

[00:24:49] And the next words he says is it's 9.14am and the thieves enter the bank at 9.13am. I'm like, look, I know the joke about drunken Irishmen, but even at 9.13am, they've had time to have enough Guinness to be drunk on St. Patrick's Day. Yes, they've been drinking since the night before. Yeah, exactly. It's continued through. Too much. I was expecting it to have been 4 o'clock in the afternoon when she said that. They'd be drunk by 4. Yeah, they started at 9 at night and they've just continued through.

[00:25:19] They've gone to a morning house. Yeah, could be something like that. Okay. I thought it was a bit much. It was. It was. It was a joke. We're just ribbing you. But it was. It was the lazy man's trope about an Irishman or, say, the St. Patrick's Day, which is, oh, there's whiskey, there's something, add in a mate and a joke about a priest and a leprechaun and me lucky charms and there's all your bits. And okay. Okay.

[00:25:49] And I literally, they ticked all of the stereotypes across this episode and that's fine because I'm surprised they just didn't have a nun floating past as well. I'm pretty sure they did and we just haven't seen it. Well, they included the nun in the joke. Yeah, exactly. The nun is a penguin. That's a very traditional Irish joke. But I did laugh, I must say. I laughed at that one. Yeah. But we do have an Irish actor there.

[00:26:18] We have the actor who plays Devlin. There's one Irish actor in that crew, which you can tell quite quickly when the rest of them start to speak in their Irish accents. But what I did like about it, and you're right, there are loads of tropes in here and I have no problem with them. It's great. The country has five million people in it. How is the impact of the world? How everybody in the world knows about St. Patrick's Day and can make some connections to it and can celebrate it in their cities. That's awesome.

[00:26:49] That's absolutely fine for me. But what I did like was some of the twists that they have on it. Having Devlin make it on the phone call to Angie Kim and her going, ah, we should just get into the pub and have a couple of glasses of Guinness and it'll all be fine. And the twist in him saying back to her, well, you may not have heard this, but do you know what it's like being a Protestant on St. Patrick's Day? It's just like being a Jewish person at Christmas time. And suddenly it's like, oh, hang on a second. I've picked the wrong lane on how to deal with this guy. So that was really good.

[00:27:18] That was a really good little twist on it. Devlin was excellent. I really, really enjoyed that twist. But equally as well, just with the balaclava, his eyes piercing out. I was just like, it kind of reminded me of Patriot Games with Harrison Ford and Sean Bean, again, the piercing eyes coming from it really with intent. And it just felt so intense, really, really intense.

[00:27:46] And I thought it just added so much to this kind of claustrophobic scene of a bank robbery and a hostage situation. Yeah. So I really enjoyed that. And then him taking it off, it's like he just didn't seem as menacing. You know, when he's in one of the side bank offices and he's taking it off speaking with another person from his group and telling them the plan.

[00:28:15] And it was just like, you just don't appear as intimidating. Yeah. And then you put on the balaclava and it's like, it's the eyes just staring out, like really piercing. I was like. He's really good. Yeah. Yeah. He's really good. Really good. This also reminded me of two things in the DC world. It reminded me of the introduction to Dark Knight, which was the bank robbery in there.

[00:28:41] And also, I think it's an episode in season one of Gotham called The Red Hood because they obviously bought the hoods in the same place as they did for this show or had the same costume designer make them anyway because it's exactly the same piercing red that we see Matt wearing at the end. The other guy, the second in command, I suppose, of Devlin's crew is wearing at the beginning. Matt beats him up and takes it off him. And then we see Matt putting it on at the end.

[00:29:07] It looks so like the Red Hood, which was a symbol in Gotham of the moving of the person who eventually became Joker. It was used as that. So it's always stood out to me. Another Gotham touch there. Well, that's it. And actually, the whole Red Hood, I think that was the really nice little segue into it was like him wearing the black suit in the season one of the Marvel Netflix shows. Just having the Red Hood.

[00:29:34] But it's like him starting to come back to being Daredevil by putting that on to hide his identity as he sort of trails Devlin out of the bank once Devlin thinks he's got the diamond and is escaping dressed as the New York police officer. Because like actually Matt taking him down, it's a really, really brutal fight as well.

[00:30:03] He snaps his shin. It's like proper beat down. And it feels a bit like his fighting in the kitchen of the informant with Officer Powell and his mate just before the trial. Yes. Like just really visceral, really dangerous. A bit out of control from Matt. Yeah. Almost like it's a valve release from Matt.

[00:30:33] And I think that connects in with the episode six. That to me was the hook here between the two episodes is him becoming Daredevil. This is like almost a proto version of it as in episode one of season one with the black suit. But this just kicking off with the vibrant red. Yeah. Yeah. But you can almost hear him screaming out going, don't treat other humans like that. You know how you've treated all those innocent people in the bank.

[00:31:02] He's taking that rage out of him there. The stuff he has to keep hidden when he's in a normal, polite company. He's taking it out on Devlin here after what he did. I must say, I do love the reason why they're robbing the bank. I think that's really interesting that it goes back to that fine effectively that was imposed by Buck last episode. Or sorry, in episode three, I think it was. And we learned that it was Vanessa that actually was the one that made him put this tax on Luca's crew.

[00:31:31] And now they're going out to rob a bank so they can cover the cost of this. So it's actually all tied back to Vanessa and Kingpin once again, which is really interesting. I kind of was wondering about it because you would think that the reason why Vanessa was imposing it on them is because they must be making 20 million. And this is a tax. So give us 10% to pay off the situation that you created. Yeah, I think basically it's restitution. But they're going, we're going to rob a bank, get this diamond and cover the cost because we don't have it any other way.

[00:32:01] Exactly, exactly. Especially because that's what we find out in the next episode. We find out from Luca that since they didn't rob the bank, he no longer has the money and he's willing to stand up toe to toe to Kingpin and say no, no, that they haven't robbed the bank. So that's quite interesting. Yeah, no, it is. It is. I think the other thing I quite liked here as well about Devlin was I like the exchange between him and Matt where Matt is effectively choosing not to be released.

[00:32:27] Devlin sees that he's blind, so picks him to be released as an act of good faith with the negotiations with Angie Kim. Kind of. Well, kind of. But with this lady. He kind of specifically says, I don't like you. I'm getting rid of you because I don't like people like you. I hate lawyers. No, but it's good faith with Angie Kim because she's asked for it. Yeah. And I think there's this young lady whose husband is there and so he gives up the place for her husband and both of them leave.

[00:32:57] But then the conversation drifts into the fact that, you know, when Devlin asks his name, he says, Matt Murdock and goes, you know, oh, you're Irish, you know. What are your parents? Oh, I'm an orphan. And then it's like, you know, you're a real Dickens character. I just thought this was a really good kind of slag that would happen. Absolutely. Where did you come from before the big swim? Yeah. The emigration to America. Yeah.

[00:33:27] The writing in this one is brilliant. They even got Devlin calling him a solicitor, not a lawyer. Yes. Because we in Ireland call them solicitors. Uh-huh. Like, that's a – so just picking up on that. Yeah. Because if Devlin was like, oh, look at the lawyer here, you'd be like, meh. So you say, solicitor, solicitor. I'm like, oh, well done. That's a – that's a – it's authentic. Mm-hmm.

[00:33:54] For me, this whole piece, one of the major bits I really want to call out is just how they visually show Matt using his abilities. Mm-hmm. Just on real display.

[00:34:13] So the cocking of the head, the Charlie Cox cocking of the head, the focusing in and out of kind of the actual – so him listening and the sound and all that. But then even just showing off the Daredevil acrobatics that we see kind of glimmers of every now and again, especially on, like, say, the fight where he's in the stairwell. Yeah. That's really good. Just so good.

[00:34:43] And you see him, like, hearing that the shotgun's about to fall and just that. And he grabs it. So for me, the standout outside of the writing was really – I should say the dialogue – was really just the visual showcase of kind of Daredevil again. Yeah. Because we saw him in episode one using those pirates.

[00:35:07] And we've seen kind of flashes here and there at, like, at the end of the last episode, the flash of him playing with the billy clubs. This is more that street level, like, oh, I have to protect my identity, but I'm going to show – I'm going to use all my powers. Exactly. And again, it is powers. I liked – I just felt great. That's it. I mean, I really enjoyed Matt breaking into the vault using his, like, real precise hearing to hear the clicks of the safe lock. Yeah.

[00:35:36] And I also liked, as well, when he takes Devlin down, just how he uses the stick as an improv billy club, effectively. It's just really nice touches all the way through. Because that's in the comic books, that is, where he keeps his billy clubs. He keeps them as his cane, but it just doesn't work the same way in the TV show and live action. You can't really do the same thing or else everybody's going, he's just using billy clubs as a walking stick. Hey, they did it in the Ben Affleck version and it worked fine.

[00:36:06] They did do it in the Ben Affleck version. Yes, they did. But I was going to just say there is that moment with Yusuf where he breaks into the vault and Yusuf says to him, what kind of lawyer are you? And he says, I'm a really good one, which is exactly his line that he used when he caught the brick that came in through Peter Parker's window in Spider-Man No Way Home. They go, what kind of lawyer are you? And he goes, a really good one. So I like the little callback to that as well. It was quite cool. It was all cool.

[00:36:34] This, as a standalone episode, and just the way they really just did it all. Like, even just seeing the detective reintroduced and really kind of getting, like, having not seen her since episode one, and getting now her and really just developing her as that. I want to say Detective Montoya from DC, for any of our DC fans. Gotham, yeah.

[00:37:01] That kind of from Gotham or Birds of Prey or any of those. Like, that very hard-as-nails New York female detective. Like, the ones that we've seen put just a nice spin on it. Yeah, absolutely. Because she does, she has the additional chops to go toe-to-toe with these kind of bank robbers. Exactly. Exactly. And her being Cherry's former partner as well. Yes.

[00:37:28] We're going to get to see the two of them interact now that he's working for Matt, and she's the New York detective still. So I think that'll be kind of cool to see, too. Yeah. I love how the episode ends. I think it's kind of cool that we find out one of the hostages was in on it the whole time, and she's the one that initially, if you look back at the episode and see the episode a second time, when Matt walks into the bank or when the establishing shot of the bank happens, you kind of find out about some of the people that are in there. You find out about the Rangers fan who's talking about sports the previous night.

[00:37:58] So later on, you see him. You see the couple who have just, who's just selling their first bank account to play a part later on. And you see her looking for the bank manager. That's her, her thing that she's doing at the beginning. So that's how she knows the bank manager is off today, because she was the one asking at the beginning. And she turns out to be in on it. Devlin hands her the diamond. Later on, it turns out to be a boiled sweet.

[00:38:20] And then Matt comes back to give the real diamond back into Youssef and gets invited for a nice dinner out in Jersey City with Manib and his marvellous daughter, Kamala. So Kamala Khan. So we may see that. I was going to say, if we don't think we get that, do we get, so is that a cameo that we get this season? Or do you think maybe it's next season? Or is it, they've done the introduction.

[00:38:47] So when Kamala in a future episode or a future season of her show or something needs a lawyer, her dad goes, I know just the man. And like similar to what we had in No Way Home, for example, with Spider-Man. And that's where they bring in just that connective tissue. Yeah, I think it's exactly that. I think this is just setting up the idea.

[00:39:12] Even if we never see it on screen in either of the actual seasons of the show, if it's something like they bring back Matt Murdock to be in Avengers Doomsday and he happens to see Kamala Khan there and he goes, oh, I was over in your house for dinner or something, you know, just to connect them. That's all it takes now. We've got the setup. He's met her dad. Dad's invited him for dinner. And then at some point in the future, they have that to play with if they want to play with it. It's another part of the MCU coming together again, which is cool. Definitely. Definitely. Yeah.

[00:39:41] Should we move on to episode six and our case note number three? Let's do it. Well, fellow defenders, Derek has given us permission to finally discuss Muse. I'm so happy. I've had to edit out so much over the last four episodes of our podcasts because we didn't know anything about Muse.

[00:40:09] He was he was an artist who was doing murals on the wall and separately we were seeing this other character. But because he looks like the character in the comic books, of course, people are putting two and two together. I just wanted to let the show announce how they were going to deal with Muse and show him on screen because he is a really interesting character. And I was hoping he was going to play a much bigger role as as they built him up into the season. I don't know what way he was originally supposed to be in there.

[00:40:38] But having just this these scenes in the background where you see him carrying off people and draining them with blood and the last couple of episodes. And then this episode being a real focus episode for Muse, that's their choice. That's how they decided to bring him in. And here they are finding out almost accidentally about him being a serial killer with at least 60 victims. 60 victims' blood were used in one mural they were trying to take down. If you spread that across all the other murals, is it the same blood he uses or does he use new blood for each mural?

[00:41:07] Is there hundreds or maybe even thousands of victims out there? It makes the character really scary that it's just been revealed this way. No, absolutely. And I mean, yeah, I like the fact that Angela, you know, they kind of connect it in, you know, to White Tiger. And Angela thinks that he was actually, you know, her uncle was investigating some of these missing victims that have occurred from Muse.

[00:41:37] And we see two of them, which I didn't, I must say, I didn't quite know how they were going to go as the two ladies come up to him whilst he's spray painting the wall. And it's like, oh, are you Muse? Can we get a selfie with you? Is this going to be like sort of one of the Scream movies or, you know, or the, no, what was the jokey Scream movies? Scary movie.

[00:41:59] Scary movie where I think they, you know, in one of the scary movies, there's a selfie done with Ghostface before he then goes and kills him. And I was like, it felt a little like that to me. It was like, oh, hi, you're Muse. Next thing he's like killing them and you just hear the screams of these two victims. And then they're left, you know, sort of slouched either side of one of his new sort of murals that he's done.

[00:42:28] So I'm really glad that we've got to see him. There was a real interesting shot as well at the start where like there's a railway worker just leaning back as one of the trains. I think one of the subway trains is kind of going past. It's an elevated section before it gets into Manhattan. But, and I was like, it's just the way the camera sort of zoomed in on them and the way they were kind of slouched.

[00:42:58] And I was like, oh, is that Muse? But of course, didn't really get close enough. But I just thought it was kind of a nice little, I guess, hint or just a bit of intrigue as to whether that is, you know, whether Muse is someone who works on the subway system. Hence why that's why he uses it as his base.

[00:43:20] And so I like how this gets the city officials riled up, certainly when they hear the number of victims involved. And effectively, once again, Merfisk's point isn't wrong here. He's saying how are the police service unable to find a serial killer over 60 people and the sanitation service are the ones that bring it to us. That should be on your radar.

[00:43:43] This many people are missing or from a similar location and all being killed under my watch, effectively, which I really like. But I do like that. It is a good moment. Yeah, and I do like, as you said, I do like that Angela's calling out that White Tiger was investigating this, you know, calling out the need for vigilantes in New York, which is what Fisk has been trying to quash since he went on his run for mayor. So I really like that. I like that there's just a little behind the scenes thing, I suppose.

[00:44:10] Yeah, and I do like that Fisk goes to use it for his advantage. You know, it turns the screws on the chief of police and he goes to use it for his advantage. Yeah. Yeah. No, I agree. Do we think Muse killed White Tiger? No. Because, like, they, I think they're trying to set it up that that's what you're supposed to think. Really? But obviously, well, I think they are.

[00:44:38] I think the only bit that we know as an audience that we know that is wrong is the fact that it was the Punisher logo on the bullet casing or the variation of the Punisher logo on the on the bullet casing. Yeah. And I think I think that's probably my only issue with how they've introduced Muse here. I wanted to talk about this character for the last couple of episodes because of just those little touches in the background. It's much more prevalent in the comic books.

[00:45:07] Effectively, the way he's introduced in the comic books is he draws a massive mural directly across from Wilson Fisk's office, criticizing his anti-vigilante policy. So Mayor Fisk running for mayor is really angry at this mural that's across the way and he tries to get it taken down. And then it gets replaced and replaced again. I think it starts out with with Spider-Man directly across the way from from from Kingpin. Spider-Man, biggest enemy of Kingpin.

[00:45:34] But he puts up murals supporting vigilantes across the city because of Fisk's policies. So that's the slight difference from how it's been handled on the show. While they are murals of vigilantes, they're not focused on and we're not seeing the aggression and anger coming from Fisk, which is what Muse's plan is. He's trying to piss off the new mayor for his policy against vigilantes. So that's why I think it's so separate from what happened with the death of White Tiger.

[00:46:03] So it's two separate stories. What we see is Fisk actually hires a group of of cops who are called the kind of standouts, the ones that all have a bad record. They're the they seem, I think, are the ones that that are holding Punisher's ideals or what they think are his ideals as their their go to. He hires them as the task force to go after Muse. So I think it's two opposing sides. The people that were potentially involved in the death of White Tiger versus Muse.

[00:46:32] Yeah, I think. So I agree to that. Yes, the cops hired and we'll talk about that in a bit. They all have Punisher's logo or that variation of the Punisher logo. A few of them have the tattoo, I should say, a large amount of them. So I just think that the way that they kind of set it up is that Muse is a serial killer. White Tiger was investigating him. The niece comes and says.

[00:47:03] He was investigating a serial killer. And I think they're trying to almost blend it just now. I think it just felt a bit messy. I think that's my only kind of critique, if you want to call it that on this. It's just the way that they need to kind of have almost like a match directly call it out, which is it was like they're not they're not one in the same.

[00:47:30] Like it is the killer of White Tiger and this psychopath. They both need to be dealt with and I will deal with them, but they're not equal. Right. Just I think it just it will make it because I've had I've seen multiple comments and I've had someone directly say to me, I don't understand why he killed. I was like, he didn't. Yeah, exactly. And I suppose that's what I mean.

[00:47:59] This episode being so focused on Muse, having him quite central to the episode without ever learning his identity, without ever seeing him come in and also trying to fit in the murals being painted with the blood of 60 victims. You know, putting that all in the episode and the creation of the task force is quite a lot.

[00:48:18] But if you spread that out over a few episodes or obviously next week, we have another episode and the week after and the week after that, as we get the rest of that information fed into us, I'm sure we'll see all that separation about all those characters. But I wish we had seen a little bit of this properly drip fed throughout the last four episodes of how much it was annoying Wilson Fisk. You can see how angry he is at the beginning of this episode, but it just needed a little bit more over the last few.

[00:48:44] Do you think they do you think they'll introduce Muse unmasked? Do you think they're going to do a hey, surprise, surprise, it was X all along and they've been right under your nose? I don't want to speculate on that because they're there. As we've said before, people have seen the other episodes. There's loads of speculation about who it could be. I can't speculate about it because I think I know who it is, but I don't want to ruin it for anybody.

[00:49:12] Sorry, the character may have already been seen on screen, but it may not be as big a character as some of the people who have their headlines out there saying. Oh, OK. I just love the idea that it was like Ben Ulrich's niece. I don't think that fits, though. I mean, unless there's going to be some real weird kind of suggestion that effectively she's completely unhinged. But I don't think that's come across. Yeah, no, I agree.

[00:49:42] I just like the idea of someone like unsuspecting. Yeah, I think where I'm trying to get to is I'd love if they did, for example, turn around. I know the body types already out there, but just it's someone who we met who were like, oh, my God, like Matt's girlfriend. Turns out she has like a like she she's like almost like a Harley Quinn and has gone insane. That type of thing. Right. Something just unique. I know it's not going to happen that way because they'll probably do the safe bet and it will turn out to be X, Y, Z.

[00:50:11] And I know, as Derek, you said that their speculations are already out there. People already know it. I don't. So that's why I'm like enjoying this because I never I never read Daredevil and the Muse era. I never I knew the character was just because. Yeah. But I don't know the actual backstory and the identity and all that funny game. He's a very minor character, but he does have one massive impact on on Matt Murdock's life and Daredevil's life.

[00:50:40] And this is pretty much how the arc starts in issue five, nine, eight of Daredevil. Go check it out on Marvel Unlimited. If you have it, it's a really, really good arc. It's during that period where Wilson is mayor of New York. And it was a really good couple of issues to read before starting up Daredevil born again. And so read it. It's I love this idea. I love the idea of a serial killer operating in New York in the world of superheroes. I think that's cool. We don't get to see that very often.

[00:51:07] And the idea that it's going completely under the radar of the brand new mayor and the NYPD and the vigilantes of New York. And then suddenly it pops out. Oh, hang on a second. This person has been killing multiple people using their blood to paint those murals that everybody's either laughing at or getting really angry about. And so I thought it was really cool in the in the comics. So so unfortunately, it didn't have a particular impact because it all was put into this episode. But still, we have Muse now and we can see lots more of them as the episodes go on.

[00:51:37] And we will discuss a little later in our fifth case. But on to case note number four, Fisk's Anti-Vigilante Task Force. Yeah, I think this is just playing off what we talked about in last week's episode. We had mentioned in episode four of the show that both Matt and Fisk are careering back to their old ways. They're reverting back to type.

[00:52:02] And just the path that Fisk takes here, it's starting to get faster and faster almost. It's like he's he started falling down the hill back into his old ways. At the opening of the episode, we have Luca, as we mentioned, coming into his office and sitting in the mayor's office and telling him to shove the 1.8 million up his ass. And which gets a muted reaction from Kingpin. Effectively, he just adds another million onto the debt and says he has to pay it by Friday.

[00:52:31] But I was expecting Luca to exit and exit Wilson Fisk's office through the window pretty quickly. This is also a scene from the comic book. This is just after Fisk takes office for the first time. One of the supervillains of New York City comes in and sits in his office as if they're friends and looking for a handout. Effectively, you're looking for part of the city to be carved off for him. And it was way too early for Fisk to make that decision. So he was thrown out pretty quickly.

[00:52:58] But I like that they just take a little cue from that and have this character we've seen for a while trying to cozy up to Wilson and getting absolutely nowhere. Yeah, absolutely agree here. And I like the fact that this is all happening right at the start. And Fisk's past comes back to haunt him in his new situation right in the heart of the mayor's office with Luca.

[00:53:23] And you have the conversation sort of happening intercut here between Heather and Matt Murdock around him going to church. Do you pray? You know, again, kind of going to the roots of Daredevil in a sense.

[00:53:46] And I just really kind of enjoyed that sort of intermeshing of these two. You know, their past connected here and then the current happening at the end. And I like how Fisk sort of moves through here where, you know, to take on the chief of police. He effectively sets up this then anti-vigilante task force. Yeah.

[00:54:16] Featuring Officer Powell. Exactly. Which is quite interesting. As we had talked about last week or I talked about in episode four, Powell seemingly doesn't know about the murder of White Tiger. But he is still involved with all of those other shady cops. He did try and send Hector to prison for a murder, which wasn't a murder. So he's obviously one of the shady cops. But we get a bit more information about those cops, that type of that side of the NYPD.

[00:54:44] And that's kind of Fisk thrown up two fingers to the head of police going, I'm picking the task force here. I've already put my file together. Yeah. They report directly to me. They get over time, which we know he refused the commissioner.

[00:55:00] But also special powers and not having to wear the body cam so that there's no footage in terms of what they do to enforce this policy of Fisk around anti-vigilantism. Yeah. I guess. So this will be interesting moving forward to see how that, you know, you see Fisk giving kind of a speech to them saying, you know, I know who you are.

[00:55:29] I know you've had difficulties, you know, kind of trying to get them going to be his hammer on the ground. And that's it. You know, there's a moment with Vanessa in this episode where he says it's different skills. It's a different perspective. You have to think differently. You know, you've had Sheila outlining his itinerary for him.

[00:55:54] You know, you've got the great, wonderful joke from the previous episode where he's listening to we built this city out from rock and roll, you know, two different ways in the same day. And he's like he hasn't quite grasped it from being the kingpin and the decision making and how you deal with this.

[00:56:20] And now he's talking to Vanessa about having this meeting with ultra rich people. But equally, it's dealing with the police commissioner and in a sense having this special task force for one of his ideas where they report to him.

[00:56:39] That is it's taking the official legal stuff and using them as a mobster. And really, really good. I like how he but I like how he's toying with how do I think and make decisions in this role of my where in a sense he's constrained by the system. Yes, exactly.

[00:57:06] But here now he it's like a caged bird that's been set free. Yeah, he's navigating his way. I love his description of what his life as kingpin was. His life as kingpin was finding out what somebody wanted and either negotiating with them to give it to them or withholding it from them. It's one of those two things. And then you get whatever you want, basically. But he can't find out how to navigate this situation.

[00:57:35] I think he seems quite close to Vanessa again in this episode, which is indicative of him growing back into his old self. And she kind of tells him, no, no, you're in a room with very rich, very powerful people and you're asking them to support you in what you need. You can't find out what they want and either give or withdraw it. You have to work with them on what they're going to give to you. And here we get another quite unusual cameo.

[00:58:03] So yeah, we do. Yeah, we have the swordsman and Jack Duquesne. Yes. We also think we have a little cameo within the episode of his cameo. We do. Where he's on the mobile phone and you see him sort of fencing, sword fighting as the swordsman. Yes, as a vigilante on the streets. So that was kind of really good.

[00:58:26] But I like here how both Jack and the other rich people, how they, in a sense, reign on Fisk's parade. Well, absolutely. Yeah. I absolutely love this. Like having him back in this because he was from the Hawkeye series. Exactly. And having Kate Bishop's stepfather, essentially, connecting again this New York vigilantes, bringing them all together.

[00:58:55] And again, without being able to bring in Kate Bishop, you bring in a connecting. And it is very much that Leonardo DiCaprio kind of meme where he's pointing at the screen. All of us went, oh, I know who that is. Kind of like that guy. Yeah. So it's that fun. And for us, it's an Easter egg and a cameo. For everyone else, it's just a guy with a mustache. Yeah.

[00:59:20] But it's kind of cool that we got Yusef Kahn in episode five and we get Jack Decay in episode six. Yes. One dealing with Matt and the other dealing with Wilson. So again, the way they're creating this show, even though Matt and Wilson Fisk only met that once at the beginning of the episode, is tying both of them into similar storylines. Exactly. It is very much the Daredevil and Kingpin show. It is. Yeah. Always has been, but very much more so now.

[00:59:47] For me, I like how this is done because also this ties, this cameo ties further into. So Wilson's task force is the Capicillers. This is pretty much what we saw from the creation back in the comic books of German Civil War. There was the government set up a group of ex-SHIELD agents and others and mercenaries to take down the vigilantes.

[01:00:13] People who wouldn't sign up to the MCU are known as the Sokovia Accords. The superhuman vegetation act in the comics. Yes. And they created this group called the Cape Killers. And it was just a restrained task force. It became the Capicillers. It even became a vigilante villain, kind of almost like Thunderbolts-y type thing later on. Yes, basically. During- Or at least members of Thunderbolts in this.

[01:00:42] And this is where I can see, this is how you ground that in a really interesting way. You make police, you fund them through Fisk, you make them his own personal Gestapo army, and you get them after vigilantes. And then you do, it's interesting to see because I think then you also get like, well then you can, do you remember when we had SHIELD? Because it's the same universe.

[01:01:11] In the SHIELD show, they end up getting like cool armor. And we've seen SHIELD agents have cool body armor and slightly different guns and sort of different things. That's where you bring a lot of that in. And that's how you can do it almost on the cheap, but a variation of it. While still connecting and really, and again, I think this is the interesting thing here.

[01:01:36] And I only put it together more as we watch Daredevil, which is they are really building the Manhattan street level. And they have been for a while. So the TV show, aside from one or two, have been the grounded. So when we think of Echo, then you kind of place it back. It's all connected, yes. But it is very much just building this more street level.

[01:02:04] And Daredevil I can see as being almost the Captain American figure. He'll be the one, I think, that he's the older statesman that will guide a lot of them. The younger generation or the younger street level heroes. I think that's where you can build it. Yeah. I hope it works out like that. As we said earlier on when we talked about the Netflix shows, that was more about they had five characters. They could do what they want to with those five characters. Plus some supporting characters, of course.

[01:02:33] But this they can use absolutely anybody. It could be that this is setting up Matt Murdock to be the leader of some superhero team down the line. Absolutely. Or it could be that we have each young character walking in and talking to Matt Murdock. Like we had Angela here in this episode talking to Matt. That could be the kind of way they will use him in the future or him walking in and out of other shows. I want those kind of connections in the future in the TV shows like we had with the Defenders characters walking back and forth between their shows.

[01:03:02] Because they were all filmed within one block of each other. I want to have that in the MCU. And they haven't really been able to accomplish that throughout the other shows. We haven't had the kind of cameo levels that we had in that universe. So I'd love to see Falcon or the Winter Soldier walk into a Daredevil episode in season one or season three. Absolutely. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Yeah. No. And again, I don't think they'll do the superhero team up. I think it's more what the second thing, which is the great, which is what I want.

[01:03:30] That connective tissue really being strengthened. Yeah. That'd be cool. There's one other big moment that happens with Wilson Fisk in this episode, which is where he turns back into himself again. We'd seen him eat dinner watching Adam last week. We know Adam was probably beaten a few times.

[01:03:49] But Adam, Vanessa's former lover, is released in this episode and given a weapon to go up against Wilson Fisk and then given a very, very large backhand to knock him down to the floor. I didn't think it was going to last very long with that battle between him and Fisk. But it is a massive moment to have Fisk using him as a plaything. Well, that's it. It's like both.

[01:04:13] I think Fisk seeing that fight scene, I was like, I just thought it was really cool because you see how imposing he is in a fight. And in terms of like Adam wielding that axe and it really, he may as well have just given Adam a spud gun, quite frankly.

[01:04:37] Because, you know, or a water pistol because it just wasn't like of any use to him. I mean, he swung heavy, missed and, yeah, backhand, crashed up in the ceiling, crashed down on the floor and in the end dragged back into his cell with them. I did like the touch of his hand twitching.

[01:04:59] Again, like with what we'll come to on case note five, I like how this was intercut with Daredevil and what is happening down in the subway with Matt Murdoch. And I just really enjoyed that. You know, the two protagonists here, the two main protagonists finding their old self again, you know, in a sense. And, yeah, poor Adam, I guess.

[01:05:29] Yeah, absolutely. Because you give us a machine gun. But even that we know probably just bounce off his head. Well, yeah. Yeah. I've got one final thing to say about Wilson Fisk before we move on, if that's okay. Let's do it. Just a really funny touch because we see him putting on his tuxedo for the event that he's going to meet all the rich people at. And the arm rips. If you remember back to episode one when he meets up with Matt, Matt's telling him, I've seen you lose weight.

[01:05:55] And now that he has Adam captive and he's no longer eating just his egg white omelets, that new diet of his where he's eating massive amounts of food in hiding down is obviously having an effect on his outfits again as he's starting to build back that weight to his old kingpin weight. See, it doesn't stay off long. No. That's what I've learned. No, it doesn't. It's the ever immovable thing. It always comes back. It's like a boomerang.

[01:06:23] Will we go on to the other side and our final case note? Let's do it. Yes, Daredevil returns. We didn't have to wait till the final episode to see him all suited up. I know. This is great. This is a... This, for me, really just kind of solidified that journey back format. And obviously it solidifies it for Matt. But just...

[01:06:53] Well, first things first, he does have to shave the beard a bit because it's very recognizable. Just a tad. It's very bad. Yeah. Um, but, uh, overall, it's fun to see that him fight the way he does. The, the, I want to say the, the acrobatic animation doesn't look as bad as I thought it did upon first viewing. Okay. Um, basically, because there is that bit where he's running across the, the, the skyline.

[01:07:23] And it looked a bit like wishy-washy. Yeah, I'm not convinced. Um, I still think it looks a bit like, uh, episode one. Right. It's better. It's not as bad, but it just definitely felt like they, they moved. This had more time in the, the animators block. Um. Yeah, maybe. Just, or just, I think it just felt a bit more, he felt a bit more floaty, uh, running across the rooftop. Whereas. Yeah, I think they had a bit of fog in there as well.

[01:07:52] Oh, foggy. But it's like, and it was doing the zip line with the, the Billy. Yeah. But, um, it still looked a little stilted. I don't know what it is. There's definitely something on Candy Valley about it, where it just doesn't sit perfect. But, I, it's not like Spider-Man or, uh, and again, that's the budget. There's probably a large budget piece here to it. But overall, this is how I envisioned this Daredevil swinging, fighting.

[01:08:22] And it, it's, it's, it's, because it's kept that visceral kind of kinetic Matt Murdock style. The boxer style we saw across all the previous seasons. Yeah. And just when he is going up against Moose, it is, it is, again, that bone crunching that we saw, like, in, towards the end of season three of Daredevil against Fisk.

[01:08:51] Is that just, like, the demon has been let loose. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Um, but they blend it really well with the Billy Clubs, because that's what we have now. Like, we have him really using all the tricks. And for me, that's the, how I've always imagined the character would come to life in the comic book, from the comic books, I should say. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I love him using the Billy Clubs to bounce off walls. Yes. His target. I always liked that.

[01:09:20] It's great to see it in live action here as well. But yeah, I will say, I didn't even notice the, that the CGI didn't look very good. It didn't cross my mind at all. I was just going, oh, it's just Matt out on the rooftops. He's in his full outfit. I want to see the full costume. Because this is the first time we're seeing him in the DD costume since episode one. And it is a new helmet, because he's got both horns, as far as I know. He's not wearing the helmet that he put away in the first episode, which is good.

[01:09:49] But you're right about the beard. Like, he's in here saving Angela del Toro, the niece of Hector, who went off to investigate Musa on her own, went over to him in his office to tell him to take up the work of the White Tiger. And then she sees this daredevil who nobody's seen in the city for over a year. And it's, that's Matt's beard. So it's definitely Matt Murdock, right? So next episode, I guess, Angela knows exactly who her savior is. Yeah, I'm assuming so. But one question on Angela.

[01:10:20] Why wasn't she wearing the necklace? That kind of, I was, you would expect, oh, my uncle is no more. And he had a special necklace that gave him magical powers. Because I'm about to go after a serial killer. Maybe I should just put on that special necklace. Well, I did say it was a little unusual the way they packed away his gear. Because the episode opened with all of his White Tiger stuff being put into a bag.

[01:10:47] And it seemed like it was either being given to Matt or he was just present while they packed it up. But I didn't see Angela carrying it at all. No, they gave it to Matt and Matt gave it to her. Okay, because I didn't see her with it. Because I know they were having a conversation, but I didn't see her with the pack. But you're right, if she had it, I guess at some point she'll put it on. But there was also that discussion from Hector that the Amulet chooses you. Maybe she can't use it. Maybe she tried and it didn't work with her.

[01:11:17] But as we've said before in the comics, Angela does eventually become a White Tiger in the future. But I think she's like the fourth of the White Tiger people. It is a lineage. But it is very silly of her. I don't know about you. But even in real life right now, I don't think I'd be walking around the subway in New York on my own underground with nobody around at all using my phone to light up an area. I think that seems quite dangerous in real life anyway, doesn't it? Yeah. Yeah, I'd say so.

[01:11:46] Yeah, I mean, I guess, though, you have that scene which where she's like Matt is saying he's not going to help effectively. So she takes matters into her own hand and goes down and is caught unaware. I mean, I just kind of the aspects here I really liked were just sort of Daredevil coming out of the darkness of the tunnel as Muse is looking and just seeing that speed.

[01:12:14] And then to be honest, Muse actually here is quite resilient, really. So I want to know what his powers are, but he's clearly not just a serial killer because he seemed to have enough moves to be not necessarily going toe to toe. Like effectively was beaten, but he's got some kick moves and all that.

[01:12:37] He's got some abilities and ultimately manages to escape the scene. And Matt does manage to rescue Angela. I mean, maybe she's so heavily sort of been drained of blood that it's a little bit woozy for her. So she doesn't fully notice that it's Matt Murdoch's. I think it's more the chin and beard combination.

[01:13:06] Like just having the beard, you know, might not. But it's the distinctive sort of profile of his chin, I guess. Or maybe from now on, when Matt Murdoch puts on the Daredevil mask, he adds a beard. Yeah. Shaves it. It'll be his new way of protecting his identity. That would be good to see. I gotta say that. It's just a big bushy thing that he just goes. Aha! It is I.

[01:13:36] You clear. Yeah, exactly. But it is good to get the full Daredevil outfit sort of back again in the season. Because we did wonder whether, you know, are we just going to see it in the final episode? So I think, you know, that's pretty good, to be honest. Absolutely. Absolutely. I will say they have changed one of Muse's powers, I guess, from the comic book system.

[01:13:58] I must admit, this is something that I saw on comicbook.com, that he has the power of hiding himself from senses like Daredevil has. So he can't find Muse because he is able to blend himself into the background. Well, here we see Matt Murdoch quite quickly finds him in the face. So I presume that power doesn't carry over into the TV show then. But I will admit, having read the comic books only a couple of months ago, I don't remember him having that power at all. I just thought he was hiding.

[01:14:28] And then it was fine. I didn't think it was an actual superpower. So I'm happy that it didn't transfer over from the comic books because it wouldn't really make sense in this world. Anything else about Daredevil and Matt Murdoch in the episode? I really just am interested to see where they go in these final few episodes. Because he was so adamant about having given up that life. He was so strongly opposed.

[01:14:56] And we saw so much of that Catholic guilt that Matt Murdoch and Charlie Cock imbue so well. It's just going to be interesting to see what the fallout is. We know the fallout from Kingpin. He is going to use his Kingpin-esque ways as a mayor. And that's going to be really interesting to watch.

[01:15:20] But it's just the actual other side of this that I'm really interested in. Yeah. I'm really happy they had the scene with Matt praying with the mask heart of Foggy. Where he's kind of recapping what's happened so far this season. What has driven him back to this point where he's putting the suit back on? Why is he here? There's scenes from the bank vault. There's scenes from episode one where Foggy dies.

[01:15:49] You know, there's other things throughout the episode. His battle with Powell. The fight scene with Devon. All of those things where you can see in his mind he's going, this would be just better if I put the suit back on. Basically. My life would just make more sense if I was the lawyer by day and Daredevil by night. So I loved how that was played without any voiceover or without someone saying it as clearly as that.

[01:16:18] But also one of the other interesting things is Heather, Matt's girlfriend, comes to him to tell him that she's writing a book on vigilantes called Why We Revere the Mask. And she wants to have an interview with the Punisher. Or maybe Daredevil. You've worked with Daredevil before, haven't you, Matt? Maybe I can have an interview with him. Very interesting, I think. Yeah.

[01:16:39] I mean, I do think, I guess this is where Heather gets in the crosshairs of Muse or maybe even Wilson Fisk. Unless he already knows about her dating habits with Matt Murdock. But yeah, no, Heather's role, other than a damsel in distress, needs to kind of sort of become a bit more apparent, I think.

[01:17:07] You know, I just, I have this feeling she's going to be sort of winding up in the subway or wherever Muse may decide this is new. Base now that his old one has been sort of rattled and discovered by Daredevil. But it feels a little bit kind of like a motorway sign. Here we go.

[01:17:30] I think there will be something, but I think there'll be more to it than that, especially because of that piece we saw in this episode where she is writing that book. I'm with you. I hope they do a lot with this character because I would like to see her return for the next season, especially. Well, and there's also the earlier interaction with some of the book fans as well. So, you know, like, again, signposted.

[01:17:58] Hey, we all take the wrong ethics of signposts. But that is true. There we go. I might have the wrong GPS on. Yeah, exactly. Could be going over a cliff with that one. Whee! But I did think it was really interesting that she was talking about the book to Matt and because it gave an opportunity for her to say to him very specifically, what is the reason that people put on the mask? Is it because they're arrogant enough to believe they can save the world?

[01:18:22] Or is it because they believe the opposite, that somebody has to take up the mantle and he's kind of just been weighing all this up in his mind beforehand? He goes, it could be either. It could be both. So I like that they were able to have that conversation through that discussion. It's a little bit nail on the head that she would be writing a book about vigilantes in the room with a vigilante. But I like that conversation. So that was all.

[01:18:46] It does also mirror stuff that Karen Page said back to him in the other CBS as well, which is that kind of you are going to think you need to be the one to save everyone. Exactly. Which is a nice touch as well. Yeah. But you know she's going to be like saying, well, what is a mask? Are people who don't have masks wearing a mask? Well, she's got a fairly 25 chapters. So yes. She will rely on some facts in there somewhere. Absolutely. Any notes on the episode that you guys want to talk about?

[01:19:15] No, none for me. For me, it's just again going to his Batcave or Daredevil cave up the top on the roof. I love it. It's so cheesy. It is so basic. But it's just so cool to see that he has this little like he spins the dial and it opens up and there's his billy clubs and his helmet and his armor and everything. It's a little touch that I just think is really good. Yeah, absolutely. Very cool.

[01:19:44] One for me, just a bit of behind the scenes stuff. The murals that are painted across the city by Muse. I love that it's David Mack. The artist who's done all of those murals. Really? He's one of the best comic book cover artists. Yeah. He used to do the Jessica Jones comic book covers and was also involved in the Jessica Jones series. He was the one that did the artwork for the opening and for I think she was dating an artist in the third season of the show and he did all of the artwork for them as well.

[01:20:12] So great that they've brought David Mack back to do all of this beautiful mural artwork across the city. Go check his art out. He's one of my favorites. Yeah, he is. Really, really good. That's my note for the episode. Oh, no, there isn't. There's one more. And you forgot it, John. There's a whiskey watch from the episode. But Cherry comes in and gives Matt Murdock his shot of whiskey just before Angela comes in to ask him to take over the mission for White Tiger.

[01:20:42] So we don't have a brand label. It's just whiskey in a glass. But at least there's some whiskey. There is, yes. We didn't get whiskey in the St. Patrick's episode. No. I think that just by right, that's probably James. Just the brand name Guinness. Actually, that was one thing I was going to say. The love of Devlin had turned around when Officer Kim was asking him to go out for a Guinness and just went, I don't like Guinness. I like Beamish love. That would have been a great little Irish joke for her. I guess if you're a stout drinker. Yeah.

[01:21:12] But it would have fallen hard for everyone else. What the hell is that? You could have gone Murphy's. At least Murphy's. Yeah, I was going to say Murphy's. Do you remember Kilkenny? Yes, I do remember Kilkenny. I at least know the two of them went over. Yeah. Yeah. Like the Red Ale. Yeah. I mean, at least Beamish and Guinness are kind of, I guess, names.

[01:21:35] The other one I thought they were going to do was a Jemsen versus Jack Daniels joke in terms of a bourbon versus whiskey. But they didn't. So I'm glad about that too. Yeah. But excellent stuff. Let us get into our defense. Chris, do you defend Daredevil born against episodes five and six? I do. Straight up. When watching episode five, I thought it was very strange that they'd released these two episodes on one day.

[01:22:04] And I was like, why not just extend it out? I made some assumptions for a show. But there is actually a narrative thread here as well where you see it's the last straws that are breaking the camel's back. And that brings these two characters back to their, they are born again, once again, into the who they are. And it's good to see. It makes narrative sense. It wasn't rushed. It was fun.

[01:22:31] And it was good writing. And yeah, I'm interested to see where that goes for the remaining episodes. So yeah, I really do defend this episode. Excellent stuff. Derek, do you defend these two episodes? Absolutely. Yeah. I really love these two episodes. I liked having an episode with just Matt on his day to day and him in a bank robbery. That's cool. What a great use of Matt. And it's the kind of stuff we used to get with the Netflix shows where we had 13 episodes.

[01:22:58] You'd sometimes get an episode which didn't have to tie in with every single strand of everything that's going on. But overall, from a writing perspective, of course, this ties in with the series. Of course, it provides extra motivation for Matt to eventually become who he was always going to become in Daredevil. And we see that into episode six. That was cool.

[01:23:16] Once again, the opposing sides that we have here with Wilson Fisk and Matt Murdock going through their transition or transformation or return to who they used to be was handled really well, especially in that episode six. So yeah, two other excellent episodes for me. How about yourself, John? To close us out, do you defend these two episodes of Daredevil Born Again? Yeah, I do defend these episodes.

[01:23:41] I'd give episode five four mutual boiled sweets out of five. And for episode six, I would give four and a half glasses of whiskey out of five. Yeah, no, I really enjoyed these episodes. And I like the kind of, I like the fact that they were separate, but there was a nice little connection there, I think, through like Daredevil's attack on Devlin in episode five.

[01:24:09] I like having Yousef back. It just, it was just, it was a nice little contained episode. And then I think, yeah, with episode six, you get this lovely mirroring of Fisk and Daredevil as they effectively start to fit back into their previous roles. And I just really like how that's been done and tackled.

[01:24:36] Great to get Muse sort of released into the season proper now for Daredevil. So yeah, absolutely defend these two episodes of Daredevil. So I think though, with that, we can move on to Josie's pub quiz. We've got two questions to ask here, as Derek said.

[01:25:01] So fellow defenders, fellow quizzers, strap on in for question five and question six of Josie's pub quiz. First up, question five. What is the number of the safety deposit box where the diamond is stored in the New York mutual bank? Very good. I'll say that again. What is the number of the safety deposit box where the diamond is stored in the New York mutual bank?

[01:25:31] And then question six. What benefit does Sheila tell Wilson Fisk he has to attend that evening? Excellent stuff. Two more questions. Yes. In our list of questions for Daredevil born again. Yes. Do you want to give us question six again, John? Yeah. What benefit does Sheila tell Wilson Fisk he has to attend that evening? I'm really enjoying Sheila's role here in this series.

[01:26:01] Me too. It's like she's trying to tie up Wilson Fisk with absolutely mundane visits as if he's some kind of, as if he's our Irish president. And it's like, you need to go over there, stand in the background and get photographs taken with you. And Wilson's like, I need to do things to fix the city. Yeah.

[01:26:18] And I think there's a few moments where, obviously, with Daniel last episode, and I think we're seeing Luca in the tracksuit, you know, where she's kind of, I think it's almost like she's caught eavesdropping at the door as Luca leaves, which was quite good. Her startled look. Which does make me fear for the future of poor Sheila, I must say. Sheila might be she-lobbed or something, I think. Yeah. But that's it. That's the two questions for this week's episode.

[01:26:48] You can email us at the end of the season with all the correct answers to feedback at tvpodcastindustries.com, and you can be able to get a chance of getting your hands on some Daredevil Born Again goodies. But in the meantime, let's pop on over to our feedback section to get some thoughts from our wonderful fellow defenders. First up, David Wagg sent an email in to us. He says, hello, lads. I would like to start by saying how much I enjoy your podcasts. I don't get to listen to you as much as I'd like to due to not watching the shows that you cover.

[01:27:13] However, I have been listening to many of them since Daredevil Series 1, so it's been a long old time. With regards to Daredevil, I'd like to give you some overall thoughts. Firstly, it is so nice to be with Matt again. And although I like the supporting characters, it doesn't feel as homely as if Karen and Foggy, or IP, came back. How the three of them played off each other was one of the original series' highlights. That being said, great to see Frank Castle back.

[01:27:37] Although looking pretty rough, he really gave Matt some food for thought, and I think it will play a much bigger part going forward. Kingpin, as always, is amazing. Written and played so well. I loved seeing the old white painting and the bloodstain on it. Really reminds you of what a violent and psychotic man he is. Which we haven't seen much of until the end, where we see Adam. Poor guy. What have been your fave series over the last ten years? Mine have been Jessica Jones, which I think is really underestimated in the mainstream. It was so good.

[01:28:07] My stepdad, who has little time for superhero stuff, watched and loved it. And WandaVision, which my mom also watched. And she has less time for superhero stuff than even my stepdad does. Thanks for all the great podcasts. Keep defending. Love, David Wagg. Excellent stuff, David. It's great to hear from you. Great to get some feedback from you. Really agree. It's just great to have Daredevil and Matt Murdock back again.

[01:28:35] I think in terms of the fave series over the last ten years, I mean, in terms of Marvel Netflix, I'm kind of really with you on Jessica Jones. I just really enjoyed, especially season one. I just loved that. And just how it kind of expanded out from that first season with the other supporting characters. Yeah, WandaVision, I'm always going to enjoy anything with a bit of magic in it,

[01:29:04] in the Marvelverse. It's going to get me watching. So yeah, Wanda, really, really good as well. And to be honest, I've really, really enjoyed Moon Knight as well. I'd really definitely go with Moon Knight. I think I scored that five out of five for literally every episode. Really enjoyed Moon Knight. Even the official Moon Knight podcast didn't give a five out of five for every episode. What are they doing?

[01:29:33] What are they doing? I know. Sorry, the unofficial official Midnight podcast. Sorry. Chris, how about yourself? What's been your favorite shows over the last ten years? I'll agree with Jessica Jones that that first series alone with David Tennant was just spectacular. I'm going to go outside the MCU. There was a little ditty of a show called Watchmen.

[01:30:02] With good old Damon Lindhoff. That was spectacular. That was just one of the best shows I think we've covered over our years. And David, your stepdad and mum would probably, based on what you're saying here in terms of these other shows, they would probably watch that and enjoy it. Because I know there was a lot of people who really found it interesting. Yeah, really good. So yeah, that's one I would strongly suggest.

[01:30:32] Fantastic. Fantastic. And once again, great to hear from you, David. Keep sending in your thoughts for the rest of the season. It would be really good to hear from you as well. Yeah, thanks, David. Yep, thanks, David. Next up on last week's episode, we have some feedback from Dr. Bob Phillips who had this to say, I hadn't realised that We Built This City. The song was a protest against the closure of music clubs, a lot like Ghost Town for the specials. Very good. Yeah. The podcast certainly goes places that I wouldn't just watch in telly.

[01:31:00] Hope you're feeling better soon, John, and great to hear Chris again. And even better, it wasn't him that tried the singing. Cheers, Bob. I know you may have just started a chain of events.

[01:31:39] Exactly. Timsy, as a wee Irish lad, brings us musical tones that it sounds like I'm singing. I'm certainly, yeah, and I'm certainly feeling better, Bob. And of course, last week, if Chris had started to sing and my ears were starting to bleed as well as a sore throat and everything else, then it just... It may have been too much. Because the original intention, of course, was for all three of us to sing We Built This City last week at the same time together. We built this podcast. Yes, absolutely.

[01:32:09] We should have sang that. And I think I've heard that on every other podcast that covered Daredevil last week. So I'm kind of glad that John's voice wouldn't have allowed him to do it and Chris's voice never allowed him to sing. He's so cliche. Thanks so much, Dr. Bob. I know we have Dr. Bob's thoughts on episode five and six coming up later on. But thanks for those thoughts. Thanks, Dr. Bob. Glad we inspired you to do some investigation into We Built This City. Yeah. On to episode five. Mel Smith shared their thoughts. Welcome back, fellow bank robbers.

[01:32:39] Another great installment of Daredevil Born Again. Despite it being what some classify as filler, which I've redefined as filler-esque, the story is about the characters. And this particular episode was about a character and putting them in a certain scenario and seeing how they would navigate their way through it. And I'd say Matt passed with flying colors. Speaking of colors, I thought that all these color-coordinated hoods made me think of Reservoir

[01:33:07] Dogs and Gotham, since there was the red hood and a gang. Cool that Matt got to wear red, even if it's not exactly holiday appropriate. Beware vats of chemicals, Matt. Love seeing our guest star of episode in Kamala's Father and his interplay with Matt Murdoch was great. Also, I think he was alluding to Kamala possibly recruiting Casey Lang to Young Avengers, considering

[01:33:36] where certain people are located in the MCU. And if this whole lawyer and vigilante thing doesn't work out for him, there's always robbing banks. He can crack a safe. The fact that he fought that temptation made him even a better hero. And finally, I totally clocked that one woman in the bank as being suspicious because the show did that thing where it does a highlight spotlight, where it focuses on a character and

[01:34:06] gives them more than two lines of dialogue. Happy St. Patrick's, Mr. Murdoch. Three and a half stairwell fight scenes out of five. Very good. Very good. And yeah, there is that moment where the bank robbers are in and this woman out of nowhere goes, no, I don't think the bank manager's here today. And you're going, hang on a second. Why do you know that? Why are you the one that's speaking up? And she tells Matt to shut up, I think, as well. So she does have quite a few lines of dialogue. And then we find out at the end she's involved in the whole plot.

[01:34:35] So really good. Thanks for your thoughts, Meryl. Yeah, definitely some cool moments that are callbacks. I love that you also saw the Gotham callback. And yeah, Reservoir Dogs with the color-coordinated robbers. That's kind of cool too. Yeah, they were very color-coordinated. They were quite bright colors. They were. Against their dark clothes. Yeah, no Mr. Pink in there though. No. No, but I was expecting there to be some kind of callback to something on that just because

[01:35:04] they were such vivid colors. But I think it was literally so that Matt could have the red hood later. Yeah, I think it was. I think it was. Meryl also started her thoughts on episode six as well. Yes. Meryl says, the devil and the kingpin are back. Really enjoyed seeing everything about Muse in this episode. And that scene with two women is straight out of the comics. Which I started reading to get to know who this character really was.

[01:35:33] Angela continues to check all the future hero boxes. Tragic loss of a family member. Check. Inherited will via a legacy from the previous hero. Check. Jump headfirst into danger to do the right thing. Check. And finally getting saved by a hero. Check. I love that moment of Matt literally saying F it and jumping back into action as Daredevil. After so long of denying who he was,

[01:36:00] he finally just accepted the fact of why do I do this job in the first place. Quite a masterful fight scene and having it juxtaposed with Fisk made it even better. Look forward to the next time we see Frank again. Also, why I didn't expect to see Swordman in the episode. It was a very welcome surprise. Four buried hatchets and paintings with bloody creativity out of five.

[01:36:28] Yeah, thanks again, Meryl, for those thoughts on episode six. It was good to see old Kingpin back in action. Although I guess Adam didn't feel quite the same way. And yes, the old rabbit in the snowstorm and the blood splatter whilst Kingpin is throwing Adam around with his axe. Yeah, it's pretty horrifying.

[01:36:58] It certainly is. It certainly is. He was going to start doing a muse on it and painting with blood. Yeah. Yeah. Thanks so much, Meryl. Thanks, Meryl. We also got some feedback in from Victor who shared his thoughts on both episodes. He says, Greetings, Defenders. Props to all involved in the series. The fanboy in me hopes for multiple Emmy Awards for the show. However, I was not down with the Miss Marvel references. Don't make me go Phil Leotardo. On you, New Jersey. Stay in your lane.

[01:37:24] And I can't believe a gaggle of NYC cops don't have any jokes. Are you crazy? That aside, I was enthralled with the drama and the action payoffs. The trash talk during the bank heist was classic. I noticed lots of heat and Reservoir Dog references. Good stuff. I wonder where TVPI weighs in on the Irish jokes. Angie Kim makes me think of Jimmy Woo. They both have hidden talents. The Matt Yusuf scenes are reminiscent of the Bruce Willis and Reggie Valjohnson team-ups in Die Hard.

[01:37:51] Only Lala Salamanca, or the swordsman, could threaten the kingpin like that. The irony is appreciated. What are the BB Street interviews leading to? Was the swordsman not the one-time criminal who trained a young Hawkeye? I find the presentation very fascinating as it delivers so much and yet leaves so much to be revealed and desired. Until next time, everybody has a plan until they get punched in the face. I am Mike Tyson, Excelsior Victor Cherry Von Doom. P.S.

[01:38:19] The Adam question is finally settled. Luke is next. Thanks so much, Victor. We did see Adam's hand twitch at the end, unless that was the last throws. I think Adam's not dead. I think Kingpin might just be taking him out of his cage every couple of nights for a little sparring session. This is just the first time he gave him an axe to see if a weapon might help him. It's just something in the way that Wilson Fisk says to him about why he's giving him a weapon.

[01:38:44] That sometimes maybe a weapon might help him overcome the odds that are against him. But he doesn't overcome them here either. I hope that that twitch was the continued life of Adam. But I read it as actual the involuntary moment of death. Yeah, it could be. So it could be one or the other. Let's wait and see. One or the other.

[01:39:08] I suspect the lady that denies him any investment funding for the port might be someone else he wouldn't mind sort of putting behind the cell. Yeah. Which would be kind of interesting. Or obviously the swordsman as well. Jack Duquesne. So, yeah, we'll see. And what did you think of the Irish joke? Do you have any leprechaun nuns? No.

[01:39:36] In the history of resistance, there's been no leprechaun nuns. Oh, no. I had sex with a penguin. It's still good. It was still really good. It's a really good joke. I have to admit. Excellent. In general, do we like Irish jokes? Only if they're good. Yes. I think that's probably the best one. Definitely. Yeah. Like any joke. Yeah. Excellent. Excellent. Thanks so much for that. Victor? Yeah. Thanks, Victor. Thanks, Victor. Next up, we have some feedback from Coffee and Vodka, who sent his thoughts on both episodes.

[01:40:05] First up, greetings fellow non-viable defenders. Can see why they decided to pair these up. The first being a short bottle episode, and again without the tights. One more. First installment, notwithstanding. And they'll have to change the title to the Murdoch docket. Still, even if it's a bit culturally tone deaf, this one was kind of fun. Finally, with Red being Red again, and a lack of funding indicating the eventual dissolution

[01:40:33] of Murdoch and McDuffie, and possible return to Hell's Kitchen, we might hope for a blessed return to what was Turk, Mahoney, Alison, Melvin, Potter, and of course, Karen. There's no place like home. The headlong rush of both Matt and Wilson getting back to type felt great on multiple levels. Not the least of which is once their major confrontation is dealt with, we can once again look forward to the return of fleshing out the side characters.

[01:41:01] For me, after three and a half seasons, the two greatest standout scenes have been the first hallway fight scene and Karen gunning down Wesley. Never a bad idea to pass Spotlight around. Getting back to this episode, though, much tighter, more intense, and a beginning of a possible return to the greatness. In short, I liked it. Episode five was scored three Reservoir Dogs, Kamala Callouts, and no legs to stand on out of five.

[01:41:32] And then episode six was four prayer mats, socializing swordsmen, and amusing battles out of five. Peace and take care. Coffee and vodka. Fantastic. Thanks, coffee and vodka. Yeah, no, that actually is a good call. The fact that we heard about the financial troubles, it could be indicating that they may just move McDuffie out, and we do get in season two him going back to Hell Kitchen, bringing Karen Page

[01:41:58] back, Debra Ann Wall, and going that, while keeping the more style that they're now building for this season, but just bringing it back to a bit more. I don't know if we'll get Turk, Mahoney, Alison, Melvin Potter, for example. I don't think we'll get those characters. But, of course, I think we may get Karen. Yeah, it was interesting. The head of Netflix has been speaking recently about, and was questioned, I suppose, about the new Daredevil show,

[01:42:25] and did talk about the fact that the relationship with Netflix and Marvel was quite strained, because they kept wanting to make a show for a lot more money than Marvel was willing to give them. So that's the reason why they fleshed out a lot of the side characters and had smaller scenes, was because they didn't have the kind of budget that Disney can put in behind the Marvel TV shows now. So he said it was a constant battle all the time. But I loved it.

[01:42:52] You know, that's where we started with our Marvel shows, was talking about episodes which were people sitting in rooms and learning all about those characters. You know, it's something that we've gone through for years, this idea that we used to have 25-episode shows which had a side character going off on a mission on their own, and then it gets all the way squeezed down to six-episode shows where the main character is on screen in every single scene of every single episode. And it's the only person you ever learn anything about, you know. There has to be some balance between the two.

[01:43:19] I love the kind of Netflix 12, 13 episodes where we got a bit of a balance between having the main character be involved and also some side characters having some adventures as well. So maybe we'll see a bit more than that in Daredevil Season 2. Hopefully. Yeah, hopefully. Thanks, Coffee and Vodka. On to our Facebook feedback. We have John Daniel who says, Holy moly, I just watched Episode 5 and I was sucked in from the jump. Such a good one.

[01:43:48] I adored seeing Ms. Marvel's father talking her up to Matt. Also, I'm not much of a predictor, but when Matt took the red ski mask off the robber, I got a little hopeful. The ending fight was short, sweet and brutal. I'm about to queue up Episode 6. I'm not sure how much work I'm getting done today. Good stuff. John, keep up that episode watching during work hours. Absolutely.

[01:44:16] I must admit these come out in the middle of the night for us. I'm really tempted before I go to the office to turn one on, but I'll never make it to the office. It'll never happen if I do that. And I work on Wednesdays in the office. I have to go. So, oh well. Oh well. Not for us. Thanks for that, John. We also got some feedback in from Dr. Bob Phillips. On Episode 5, he said, Aw, what a beautiful bottle episode and a way of setting us up with Ms. Marvel. A new cop hero. Hello, Detective Kim. And a dubious one too. Watch out, Rodriguez.

[01:44:43] As Dee Dee knows about you, this is what you use nine episodes of a TV show for. Very good, Dr. Bob. It's interesting that you'd call that out when we had the message there from Coffee and Vodka. Because we do get to see some more side characters in that episode particularly. When we're not dealing with Fisk's story on one side and Matt's on the other and we're just dealing with Matt, we get to see some more people in his world.

[01:45:07] But I do think it's interesting that we haven't seen much at all about McDuffie, his partner, who effectively should be the Karen Page and Foggy Nelson of this show. And we really haven't seen her say anything other than just pushing Matt to get money for the business or giving him cases. And other than in the first few episodes as well. So, yeah, hopefully they do flesh her character out as well.

[01:45:29] Because otherwise you just know that Karen will come back and all of a sudden Duffy will be kind of forgotten about. And it's like, it's a shame to bring that character in. And, you know, this whole idea of setting up own establishment unless it becomes, you know, Murdoch, McDuffie and Page or something. That could be something. Hopefully, yeah, that could work. So, yeah. Thanks, Dr. Bob. Thanks, Dr. Bob.

[01:45:55] We then got John who wrote back in again for episode six and had this to say. It seems like Fisk and Murdoch are surrendering to their baser instincts and I couldn't be happier. Can't wait to see how you all feel about these two episodes. I don't know why they dropped two this time. Excellent stuff. Yeah. We loved it too, as you've heard. Definitely. Thanks, John. Absolutely. Yeah. Thanks, John.

[01:46:21] And then Dr. Bob came in for his thoughts on episode six saying the Fiskian Praetorian Guard is assembled. The mayor, Matt, crumbled to kingpin and daredevil and someone who's not taken any lessons in anatomy or physiology was in charge of the bloodletting machine. Plus, cardiac arrest through hemorrhage, a precordial thump isn't going to be of any use. Go get an advanced first aid qualification. One out of five MDs for DD.

[01:46:52] Thanks, Dr. Bob. And for some of our listeners, Dr. Bob is actually a doctor. It's not just a fun nickname. He is actually a doctor. So great to know that the precordial thump won't do anything because I would have assumed that would have. It works in all the other TV shows. Why wouldn't it work here? Absolutely. And we're watching it going, well, this is daredevil. He can hear the heart. He knows exactly when to hit the thump to get the heart to go better than anybody else. But no, absolutely not.

[01:47:22] I think I would take Dr. Bob's consultation on this. Yes, I think so. Over everybody else's. I mean, he could have taken her out to the third line of the subway and put her hand down. Get a good electric charge from that. But alas, it might be sort of... He didn't have time, John. It might be a charred tiger in the end, we guess. Might have been. Yeah. Great stuff. Thanks, Dr. Bob. Thanks, everybody, for your feedback on this episode. It'll be great. Absolutely. Thanks, Dr. Bob. And thanks, everyone.

[01:47:52] Yes, thanks all. And if you have any feedback, be sure you send it to feedback at tvpodcastindustries.com or head on over to our Facebook page or any of our social pages and you can leave us your thoughts. And we will read it out at the end of each episode. If you really like us, why not write us a review on Apple Podcasts or share the love by sharing the podcast because it is important. It helps.

[01:48:19] And don't forget, you can go on over to tvpodcastindustries.com and you can subscribe there on all good Fisk or Murdoch-affiliated podcast catchers. Absolutely. Thanks so much for joining us. We will, of course, be back next week with episode seven of Daredevil Born Again, but we will have to admit the Forsaken have beaten us. We're not going to be able to cover Wheel of Time at the moment. Just way too much going on. We do hope to come back to it in the future.

[01:48:46] We've loved the first three episodes that we've seen of the show, but we're not even close to caught up. We're almost on episode five. I think that's just come out on Prime Video this week and we're nowhere close to catching up. We're nowhere close to being able to record. And unfortunately, I don't think we're going to be able to do it for a while yet. So sorry to the Wheel of Time fans. We are some of them ourselves. We've got ourselves among Wheel of Time fans.

[01:49:09] But unfortunately, without the ability to record at the moment, we're just going to have to call it maybe in the future we can turn the wheel back in time and put them out as the episodes come out. Well done. That was the best I could do for it. Well done. I didn't know where you were going, but you landed that car. Well done. Well done. Because landing cars makes sense. Yeah. Yeah. Sure. Sure. Thank you so much, everyone. We'll try our best to get there.

[01:49:38] And, you know, just life gets in the way. But make sure you do check it out because it really is a great show. Yeah, it is. Says the man, having only watched two of the five. That's where we are, folks. Well, what I can say is halfway through the season, 97% positive rating on Rotten Tomatoes. Yeah, it's fantastic. Best we can say. Thanks so much for joining us. We will be back next week with more DevRel. I can't wait to talk about it. Yes. Thank you so much. And we'll speak to you again next week.

[01:50:08] Bye. Yes, absolutely. Thanks, fellow defenders, for joining us. And, of course, fellow quizzers, keep those answers warm, ready to send them in on the final episode of Daredevil. But until Daredevil Born Again, episode seven next week, keep watching, keep listening. And, of course, keep defending. Bye. Bye. Bye. That was me attempting to sing. Was that a sing?