Daredevil Born Again Episode 4 Review

[00:00:00] This is Defenders on TV Podcast Industries. You're back with Daredevil Born Again Episode 4, Six Semper Sistema. When I was a boy, I learned by watching my father how to shake a man's hand, how to know when someone intends to cheat you.

[00:00:19] I learned the power of persuasion, how to move men's minds or break their bodies. But forgiveness, that wasn't a part of who he was.

[00:00:49] I would like for things to be the way they were. I understand that that may not be possible. I'm not the same woman I was when you left. No, you aren't, are you? You are something even more extraordinary.

[00:01:28] Welcome back fellow defenders to Defenders on TV Podcast Industries. We're talking about Daredevil Born Again Episode 4, Six Semper Sistema. Happy St. Patrick's Day. I'm one of your hosts Derek. Hello there fellow defenders. I am one of your bunged up hosts, John. And rounding out the trio, bringing back O'Neill, Harrison and Jones. The law firm to end all law firms. Literally.

[00:01:58] It would destroy the law firm, definitely. It would, yeah. It would end everything. Our actual avocados at law are back together again to cover another series of Daredevil. That's awesome to have you back, Chris. Absolutely. And the week of St. Patrick's Week, which is pretty cool. Yes. Diddly-eye, diddly-eye. Chirro and sure you won't get me lucky charms. There we go. It's out of the way. It's done. Isn't that an American version of Irish, Chris? We're Irish. We can actually say what St. Patrick's Day is normally like. We sit at home.

[00:02:27] We watch the parades from all across the country. Because it's raining. Because it's raining. We may have a drink, but usually we're working the next day, so we don't do that either. No, we may have a drink and usually end up having 10, even though we are working the following day. Well, maybe, maybe. When I was younger, but usually the day before, or when I was a boy, as Wilson Fisk would say. But the night before St. Patrick's Day is usually the night you go out drinking. On St. Patrick's Day, it's usually just watching parades from all across the country.

[00:02:56] And the parades consist of usually kids celebrating their momentous sporting achievements, which is the funniest thing when you're watching 100 parades where every single parade is. And the local kids celebrate their sporting achievements. Yes, if the snakes attack, we have an army of little 10-year-olds who have been doing karate since they were 8, ready to karate chop. Now, who knows? Maybe in the future one of them may get blinded by some radioactive goo

[00:03:25] and go on to be a man standing on top of a rooftop swinging some billy clubs in the middle of the night. That would be pretty cool. Yeah, that would be pretty cool. But the real reason why I do mention St. Patrick's Day and the fact that all three of us are here, I just wanted to call back to the days when Daredevil, I think it was season two, came out. This month came out in March. And we sat on St. Patrick's Day recording our podcast the first three episodes because it was released on St. Patrick's Day here.

[00:03:53] So our whole day was actually spent watching and recording episodes of Daredevil, which was kind of exciting, especially because the episode opened with the Irish gang in New York. So that was kind of fun as well. That was. I remember that. See? Memories. Reminiscence. And for once, I do have a reason to talk about stuff not related to Daredevil. For once. But yes, welcome back to our fellow defenders.

[00:04:19] We are going to talk about the fourth episode of Daredevil Born Again. Chris, just quickly, because you haven't been here for the first three episodes of Daredevil, what are you thinking about the show being back? How are you feeling? It's managed that sequel, I guess, to the original Daredevil Netflix series. I'm loving it. I suppose it depends on how you see it. Is it an MCU version of the Netflix show?

[00:04:42] Or is it a Netflix-styled MCU series? It's depending on whether you're kind of column A or column B. They're both quite similar. But this is an adult MCU. And I'm loving it. It is violent. It is aggressive. It is, I jokingly said to you off air, that it is a law and order MCU. Exactly. That's what this feels like.

[00:05:10] It is just a law of procedural with, or not procedural, a law of drama with that type of soprano slash kind of superhero piece thrown in. Slash Ali McBeal. Yeah. Well, that's... A bit less comedy. Yeah. Less dancing babies. But we never know. Maybe Wilson Fisk will strip off and start dancing. We don't know. That could be in a few episodes.

[00:05:40] I'm really enjoying it. I have so many questions. I think hopefully some of them will be answered by the end of the series in terms of whether this is, like, which of them kind of got blipped out, which of them didn't get blipped out, now that they were part of the blip and that is part of the series. What that meant... They haven't really addressed that at all.

[00:06:08] They haven't said any of the characters got blipped out at all. That's not part of the deal. And the show takes place in 2027, I believe. Yes. 2026, 2027. So it's definitely after the blip, after that time jump that we had back in the Avengers. So that's interesting. Yeah. It's also one of the interesting things as well covering the show is that the spoiler policy we usually have is we're watching the episode and everything before that. We can spoil, of course, and don't spoil anything that's coming up ahead.

[00:06:34] We haven't watched ahead, but because all of the episodes were given out as screeners to lots of press sites, there's lots of speculative discussion going on, which is actually just spoiling future episodes that the people who are writing the speculative articles are just spoiling things for people viewing it. In the past, we used to watch it on Netflix and be six or seven weeks behind everybody. So when we had speculation, it was usually wrong and everybody knew it because they'd watched the episodes ahead.

[00:07:01] Now we're trying not to spoil anything and articles that are out there are just casually spoiling things that they shouldn't know or shouldn't be revealing, which is really frustrating. It's even one of the major characters in the show, one of the things we will talk about a little bit later on, but one of the major characters in the show has had no real introduction at all. If you've seen the future episodes or if you've read the comic books, you can piece together who that character is and he is literally being featured in headlines out there in multiple sites.

[00:07:31] So I want to be really careful that we don't spoil anything or ruin the enjoyment of the show as it builds towards its crescendo at the end of the season. But also there's things that we will need to talk about too. So we're going to try and be as careful as possible is basically the point, as we always are here on TV Podcast Industries. Damn right. Yeah. Yeah. But what we do want to hear from you, fellow defenders, is your thoughts on the episodes as you watch through them. You can email us to feedback at tvpodcastindustries.com or pop on over to our Facebook group at facebook.com

[00:07:58] slash groups slash TV Podcast Industries. If you want to leave your thoughts over there, we're also over on Blue Sky and on threads as well if you want to join us over there and share your thoughts with us. But it's time to get into our discussion about episode four of Daredevil Born Again, Six Semper Sistema. Yeah. That's based on a kind of a semper fi, I think is probably the one that people know it from. But roughly in Latin, this means that thus always to the system, which is Frank's way

[00:08:28] of telling Matt, you can overthrow the system. Nothing has to stay the same effectively is what the meaning behind that is. Oh, well, that's what the quick Google search that I did. Well, exactly. Yeah. So it's not all. Stick it to the system, basically. But this episode was directed by Jeffrey Nachmanoff. This is his first episode of Daredevil Born Again, and he also directs episode four. And this episode was written by David Feige and Jesse Wigatow. I've written it here in my notes. David, no connection to Kevin.

[00:08:57] Feige is a lawyer, legal consultant and author and is contributing right through throughout the series of Daredevil. He's contributed to loads of TV shows as well as a legal consultant. So I presume that's why things feel quite like a law procedure, because he's here. He's a writer and author. He's written books on legal procedures as well. So, yeah. Excellent. Yeah. That definitely comes into play with old Leroy. So good to discuss that later. Absolutely. Absolutely.

[00:09:27] And the other writer on the episode, Jesse, is a writer on the upcoming Tron 3 alongside Jack Thorne. Interestingly, Jack Thorne was the co-writer on the excellent miniseries Adolescence, which just came out on Netflix the last couple of weeks and is now a massive global hit. We watched it, I think, in one sitting. Oh, yeah. Four episodes of Adolescence. Highly recommend that. But it is quite traumatizing if you're not ready for it. It is a fantastic show.

[00:09:53] Each episode done in one take with the cast effectively just going through the entire procedure of one day in each episode. It's fantastic. Fantastic show. Brilliant written too as well. Really disturbing in terms of what it's covering. But, yeah, I guess if you have children... Don't watch it. Maybe don't watch it. If you don't have children, it's good to watch it go, at least they don't have children. They have to bring up into this world.

[00:10:21] It's brilliant writing and acting and directing and balance, though. Absolutely. Absolutely. And one of the cool things here, as I say, Jesse Wiggetu wrote this episode, is a writer on Tron 3 along with Jack Thorne. So one of the interesting things about seeing something like that, seeing some other examples of their work, it's making me even more excited to see Tron 3. Having those writers behind the scenes, what are they going to do in a world like Tron? It's kind of interesting.

[00:10:49] But, John, do you want to tell us what they gave us with your synopsis for Daredevil Born Again Season 1, Episode 4? Sure. Matt Murdock is confronted by Hector Ayala's niece, Angela Del Toro, who believes the police are responsible for his death. Murdock comforts her with hope that the killer will be brought to justice. While Matt works to get a reduced prison sentence for a petty criminal downtown, the Fisks are back in marriage counselling.

[00:11:16] Wilson Fisk and Vanessa discuss her affair with Adam, while Heather Glenn privately asks Vanessa if she feels safe around Fisk. Fisk's plan to rebuild the city's ports faces several hurdles, including bureaucratic procedures, gang infighting, and his protégé Daniel Blake drunkenly leaking details to Bibi Urik, who reports that Fisk is a union buster.

[00:11:42] Despite his anger, Fisk decides not to fire Daniel when the latter expresses his deep loyalty. Meanwhile, Matt Murdock investigates the site of Ayala's murder and locates a bullet casing with the Punisher's symbol on it. He tracks down Frank Castle and suggests that he should take responsibility for those who are misusing the Punisher's symbol.

[00:12:05] But Frank Castle calls out Matt for not killing Bullseye as retribution for Foggy Nelson's death. Later that night, across the city of New York, Murdock practices with his daredevil Billy clubs, while Fisk eats dinner next to an imprisoned Adam, and a mass killer drains blood from their victim. Thank you, John. No worries at all. As you can tell, fellow defenders, I'm a little croaky.

[00:12:32] I'm recovering from a bout of flu that took my throat. Mm-hmm. I prized Essex. And unfortunately, that is the reason why we haven't been able to record on Wheel of Time as well. Oh, blame me. That's fine. Blame me. Well, there's only been the two of us. And I don't think anybody wants to hear my thoughts as the person who hasn't read the Wheel of Time books. It's like, hmm, this is good. This is good. This is a good show. Yeah.

[00:12:59] So I wanted at least one of my co-hosts there for that. So we'll have to just wait a little while longer for Wheel of Time. Won't be too long, though. So this was a really interesting episode of Daredevil, I thought. There was a good bit going on. And this, again, another builder as we have Kingpin building back towards Kingpin, potentially, and Matt building back towards being Daredevil again. Yeah, it felt like a very much a transitory episode.

[00:13:25] If we want to think of the first three being in almost like act one of the kind of setting the scene, this feels like the 1.5 moving into the two. So you get the tease of Frank fully coming back in. You get the tease of the tribute, Punisher-esque kind of fanatics. You see the symbols and stuff.

[00:13:54] You get this tease of a new killer, masked killer. But then also you kind of finish putting your, as a writing team, they finish putting their kind of chess pieces down. So it's like we know where Kingpin is now and where his trajectory lies. We know now where Matt is and where his trajectory is going towards.

[00:14:20] So it is now that kind of like, I feel like they've just set everyone up and went, okay, here it is. This is how everything goes. We all good, right? Now let's move forward and get past. That's how I felt this episode kind of pulled together. Yeah, yeah. And none of us have seen episode five, as we mentioned, of course. I'd be cautious that that's how episode five is going to go. I don't think we're going to get a time jump and everything's back in place and Matt's wearing the suit or anything like that next week.

[00:14:49] No, no, no, no, no, no. I think we'll probably be similar to the Netflix shows that by the end of the season we'll have Daredevil versus Kingpin maybe at the end of the season. That might even be a season two thing though. Never really know. But we get into our case notes for this episode, guys. Let's do it. First off, case note number one, justice for the people. So following on from the death last week or the murder last week of White Tiger,

[00:15:14] a really interesting scene where Matt's down in the coroner's office as they're bagging up all of White Tiger's belongings. I thought that was just to kind of call that out to begin with. Matt's getting information on how Hector Ayala died, how he was murdered effectively. But all of the items that made Hector Ayala the White Tiger, including the amulet that gives him his power, they're all being bagged up. Where are they going? What are they going to be doing with those? I think that was something that just suddenly in my head.

[00:15:43] Because in the comics, there are other people that take on the mantle of White Tiger. And Hector has said that that's what gave him his power. That's what made him super powerful. Who's getting the amulet? Where are they going? Are they just going to hand it back over to his wife? Or because it's a super costume, does it go into some kind of storage locker somewhere? And whatever replaced shield in the Marvel Universe?

[00:16:02] Yeah, I mean, I guess under normal circumstances, it would either be evidence for a trial or if it was personal items, it would be handed to his next of kin. So I guess it's going to his wife. There's no active investigation around this, hence why Daredevil is going out there. But that's all on the basis of Angela.

[00:16:27] I mean, I think it's really interesting in this episode that you have that lingering injustice coming from the previous episode with Hector. Not in the sense that his injustice wasn't at the hands of the justice system, but it was, I guess, someone in society believed they were more right to do what they did than a court of his peers.

[00:16:55] Which is basically anarchy. So you have this anarchal injustice happening on the streets, which is called out, or structural injustice, because it's called out by Angela that you have, it's a bit of both to some extent, but because she's angry, says nobody has done anything as he was just Hector from the Heights and they were all cops.

[00:17:25] You know, it's that butting up against the system, up against the structures. But equally, there are within this, this anarchal group of cops that are all praise, you know, Frank Castle. Even though it's like the cult of Castle, it's a mutation of it that Frank doesn't, you know, enjoy, believe. And so, you know, it's chaos in that sense.

[00:17:54] And, you know, at the same time, you have the full weight. It is this sort of imbalance then. The other kind of example is Leroy that you have, you know, with his petty crime, but ultimately having some really good dialogue.

[00:18:14] Just the discussions between him and Daredevil and with the court registrar sort of as well in this episode. So, again, all these injustices of people who have from previous, but then also the small little case that Daredevil has received here from his partner, McDuffie. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

[00:18:43] That's a really interesting case that Matt has because it's such a simple one and can be really thrown away except for the conversation that happens between Leroy and Matt, which I just thought was really interesting. I bet yourself, Chris, on these moments that are pushing Matt back to becoming the fighter for the justice of the people in New York. What do you think about those scenes? I'm really enjoying this.

[00:19:03] So, the fact that Hector's niece basically collects the belongings and challenges Matt, I like that. I will... It's not really a spoiler, I suppose, that in the comic books she inherits that mantle and does take up the mantle in the comic books. She's one of the future White Tigers, yeah.

[00:19:29] So, again, potential for the fact that she could be one of the young Avengers. Maybe. We have seen many, many young teens across the series. So, again, just giving that possibility in the future. Sure.

[00:19:47] The law aspect for these few scenes is what I really enjoyed a lot of in this episode, which is when you have the injustice and that has befallen Hector. And you can see, like, it's... For the viewer, it's obvious that there is this cult of castle, as you say.

[00:20:13] That there is this graffiti that they have flashed up three or four times with a variation of Punisher's logo with a blue line in it. So, very much hearkening to real world, the blue line, the American flag, which had the blue line in it when all cops' lives matter.

[00:20:36] When they did that, this is a variation of a graffiti version of the Punisher's version of that. So, what we will see, and I'm assuming here, is because Punisher does bring it up later, it's like those fanatics. It is cops who take on that vigilante, Punisher-style approach. It's interesting.

[00:21:03] I don't want to spoil anything from my comic book knowledge, but interestingly, the graffiti is not connected to the police officers. I'll say that. Okay, interesting. Cool. There you go. Yeah. I made assumptions there. Cool. So, I can say, because we're in the White Tiger point, I can say that outside the club where BB and Daniel go and get drunk till really late in the morning, when you see them going outside, there's a new piece of graffiti artwork outside the club for the White Tiger saying,

[00:21:32] Vigilante Justice underneath it, and it is tagged with the name Muse underneath as the artist of that graffiti. Believe that's the graffiti that's been all over the city. Oh, cool. You see that as well, because it's not just that art tag on the wall outside the club, but you see the other ones that have been, I think, at the end of the episode. So, there's the Kingpin one, but also then the Punisher as well. Yeah, which triggered written across his head.

[00:22:01] But it's really sort of lingered on to, I guess, make that point. Yeah. For sure. It's the thing going on in the background when we as the audience are watching what's happening with Wilson Fisk and with Matt Murdock, the thing that's building in the background in New York. Okay. Yeah. And I think the interesting thing around Leroy's, and, you know, Chris, you're talking about the police officers,

[00:22:25] that whilst Matt's trying to sort of is going back and forwards to try and get Leroy's wishes, you know, so that he only has probation or he actually, he believes he's innocent. Like, I do like the thing that Leroy says, that they're happy to send me to prison, which is five more times more expensive than feeding me. Yes.

[00:22:51] Because effectively what you kind of realize is he's homeless, hungry, and is just trying to get some food to survive. I think this, we talked about it last episode because there was a piece of feedback, you know, questioning one character that should have come back from the Daredevil original seasons or the Defenders original seasons was Turk Barrett, this character that was always the guy that was arrested by the cops and the guy that was always being hit by the Defenders to get their information. Wouldn't it have been pretty cool?

[00:23:19] I love this actor here that plays Leroy, but wouldn't it have been pretty cool if this was Turk Barrett's moment? That once again, Matt has to come in and defend Turk Barrett after all of these times that he's been, that he's collected him. What you see with Leroy is he's got this rap sheet of 20 different crimes over the last couple of months, couple of years that will always perpetually make him go back to prison for whatever crime he breaks. If he speaks too loud in a quiet zone in a library, he's probably going to get 30 days in prison.

[00:23:47] And his argument here is exactly as you say, John, his argument here is putting me in prison for one day costs more than it does to feed me. And the only reason I'm committing these crimes is because I need to feed myself. I wanted something special. I want the food I'm eating is terrible. I wanted a kind of a dessert. So I went in and took a couple of boxes of boxes of dessert. And here I am being sent to prison. And the cops that arrested me took two boxes of that exact same thing and ate them on the street in front of me. Why aren't they being punished if this is such a terrible crime?

[00:24:16] And it's just that moment with Matt where he's going, OK, now I kind of get why you're saying reduce the expected sentence down to zero because there's no justification for that kind of cost. But the precursor to this is him saying, I'm innocent. You know, it's not me. And I do like the fact he says, well, it could have been a scroll. Absolutely. Our first mention of the scroll is a secret invasion.

[00:24:41] But, you know, Matt's there going, well, the CCTV footage, there's the tillist, you know, the eyewitness, there's the security guard. Plus, here's your rap sheet. And each time he's like, but it's not me. Yeah. I'm innocent because it's basically. Again, it's the injustice of this situation where in the end society deems it better to spend more money punishing someone for a minor misdiction.

[00:25:11] Misdemeanor or petty larceny rather than maybe to see that everyone in society is fed to some degree. Yeah, absolutely. You know, the really interesting one that Leroy talks about as well is the last time he got 30 days, he missed his meeting social security. And when he missed that, then he didn't get a social security payments and they couldn't be restored. So therefore, he's now starving on the streets. And people look at it and go, well, you committed the crime.

[00:25:41] Do the time. It's like it's way more punishment that people think it is. 30 days in prison means you miss out on everything. And, you know, getting a job is even more difficult if you have any kind of criminal record. So Leroy in these moments here is challenging the system. He's challenging those central concepts that people seem to have when they don't look beyond it and don't look at the people behind it. And that comes into play on Wilson Fisk's side as well later on, which I think is really interesting.

[00:26:09] So while Matt's running up against all of these basic precedences that everybody tells him, it's just the case. It's just the system. It's just how it all works. He's being challenged by people around him. You know, the person that Matt is negotiating with is kind of telling him, look, last time he got 30. How about we give him 35 this time? And Matt is about to take it. He's kind of going, well, it will always go up. Why would it ever go down?

[00:26:33] Apart from Leroy's explanation that it should never have been 30 days in the first place anyway, because it's way too costly to punish the crime that's happening. Right. It's supposed to be a proportional punishment for the crime. Right. How could it be proportional if it's only if it's, you know, for $10 worth of groceries he's getting? The city's paying thousands and thousands of dollars per day to lock him up behind bars. In Rikers, of all things. In Rikers Island. Yes. Yeah. I love this conversation.

[00:27:01] I know it's only a really tiny portion of the episode, but the actor playing Leroy did a great job here. And the conversation really speaks to this idea of challenging all the systemic precedences that are around you.

[00:27:42] Yeah. And you're going to get into your own hands. But interestingly, you get this very stable heartbeat from Officer Powell suggesting he's not done it. And talking about, well, that's not me. Because, you know, I've got brothers, uncles are all in the force and there is a prize coming this.

[00:28:08] So, you know, it's not something they would do would be to go out. And, you know, one of the things from the last episode was, you know, is it Frank Castle or is it one of the cops? Yeah. But clearly here, Officer Powell's heartbeat is very well measured and rhythmic here. Yeah. And it's not stressed out at all. Exactly. Powell is not responsible for this. He's not one of the cops that's involved in the death of Hector, which is, you know, that's the reveal here.

[00:28:37] I don't think of the writing has helped very much when he then did threaten Matt with all of his cop family coming down on him really hard. That really helped. But Matt can tell through his super abilities, effectively, that he's not lying about not being involved in Hector's death. Yeah. Yeah. It just doesn't clear the cult. It doesn't clear the Punisher cults, the fanatics. It just says Powell isn't. Powell isn't. Well, no.

[00:29:06] He said I didn't do it. He said he didn't kill Hector. It doesn't say that he wasn't part of that cult or part of this group that's shaking down his eyes and didn't do anything dirty. Like, it's just that he didn't kill Hector because that's not what he would do. But... Well, his actual line is he said he didn't know anything about it. Yes. Sorry, yes. I think that's what Matt hears. He doesn't know anything about the death of Hector, anything further about it.

[00:29:36] So, I think... I don't think we're going to be going back to Officer Powell to get more information about these other guys. I don't think so. No. I think he's aware of the group because the guy that was with him when they went to shake down the witness had the tattoo on his wrist. And then one of the guys in the courtroom had the neck tattoo of the Punisher. So, he's probably aware of the group. But I don't think Powell is involved or sent them out to kill Hector. It was a decision of this group, I guess. So, we'll probably learn more about them as the season goes on.

[00:30:05] Is that enough for justice to the people at the beginning? I think so. I think we can go on to our case note number two. Marriage counselling for the Fisks. Unless somebody could think of a more exciting term. No, they're at it again on the sofa. Yeah. That's much better. Actually, I should have just said that. The Fisks are at it again on the sofa. Yes. But not as we know it. There's some really interesting movements in here.

[00:30:31] I feel like this is going to be the overarching way we'll deal with Wilson and Vanessa as the series progresses. But there's just some interesting movements in here. We talked about it last time where they were having these pre-conversations before Heather came in about business but not really talking about business. Here, they're still kind of protecting the criminal side of what they're talking about.

[00:30:53] But she does get them to share about Adam, the person that Vanessa slept with while Wilson was away, while he was dealing with Maya and while he was recovering from his injury. So he's been away for quite a long time and she felt that he was never coming back. So had another relationship. Question. When he was a quote-unquote away. Yes. So you said it was when he was with Maya. Was it that when he was shot in the eye and under the anesthetic and he was in hospital?

[00:31:22] Yes. Does it also read that he was blipped? No. Okay. So it was when he basically got shot by Maya in Hawkeye and then went underground to the hospital and disappeared and she took over. That's our understanding because Vanessa said back in, I think, episode one, she was by his bedside and then one day he was gone. So it was after he was shot and then he went off to confront Maya.

[00:31:50] So the time that he was away after, well, when she thought he was supposed to be recovering, he disappeared basically and then went to Maya. How far was he? How long was he gone? The story does take place over a couple of months from Hawkeye to the end of Echo. Remember that opening scene is directly after the end of Hawkeye and then there's a time jump while she goes on the run for a few months. Yeah.

[00:32:19] And then she arrives back home with her family in Echo. So if I remember rightly, there's a couple of months. It might even be up to a year. I think we were speculating about eight or nine months, if I remember. Yeah. So, yeah. So he's been away quite a long time. But his pushback back to that in the marriage counseling is, you know me, you know I was always going to come back. Vanessa's not exactly too sure about it.

[00:32:45] But the reveal here that we hear from her is this is what happened with her mother, that one day her father just walked out and she never wanted to be treated like her mother. She never wanted to be someone that would just be left behind without her husband. Yeah. And she took this decision to sleep with Adam and to be with Adam because she felt maybe Wilson Fisk had done exactly the same thing to her as her father did to her mother. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:33:15] I mean, I think so. I like I did like this interaction. I liked how Heather Glenn as the therapist pushed it. And I liked seeing the discomfort on Wilson Fisk because we were speculating why they were showing his sort of bruised knuckles. And as it kind of came to Adam, you realize the discomfort that that topic brought to him equally.

[00:33:39] And I think that's really, you know, Vanessa's reasoning for it was that Adam wasn't part of Fisk's world. That's what attracted her. You know, she was drawn in by his hands, but effectively it was something very separate to Wilson Fisk is what she's saying. He was an artist, not part of the business. Exactly. So I kind of liked that because Wilson Fisk is so totally obsessed with Vanessa.

[00:34:06] And, you know, you knew that, but she didn't. He knew he would always be with her or, you know, like he's the one that you can suddenly see the skew in the relationship, really, that it's him that's keeping them together. But it just becomes really evident here. I mean, even to the point you have Heather asking Vanessa whether she feels safe in her marriage.

[00:34:36] Yeah. And you have Vanessa having to just clarify that with Wilson Fisk later on. I just really like how it gets a little bit creepier with this relationship, which you kind of feel it should be. Absolutely. And I love the response from Vanessa when asked that question. It's not a simple yes or no answer that Vanessa gives when asked if she feels safe in the relationship.

[00:35:00] She says he's not capable of harming me, which I think is really fascinating. And it's like, you know, there's part of it that could mean, well, now I'm the kingpin too. And I have people behind me that will defend me if he ever tries to attack me. And there's the other part of it, which is I know Wilson Fisk and he is so obsessed with me that he could never lay a finger on me. He could never possibly harm me. I'm sure of that, at least, that I couldn't possibly be harmed by this guy because of how his whole mind works.

[00:35:29] And she knows him that well. And that's really interesting from Vanessa. That's just that little twist to it. We will come back to Adam at the end of the episode, of course. But I do think it was interesting when Wilson was saying, no, I didn't actually harm him at all. I did confront him with just words, with clarifying dialogue, no expression of ill intent, just an expression of love for you, Vanessa. And then we find out, obviously, later on, that's not exactly what happened.

[00:35:59] So, yeah, very, very, very cool kind of play back and forth between these two characters. I'm so glad to have Vanessa and Wilson both back in the show for this season, kind of exploring their relationship in a different way, rather than him just being obsessed with the perfect woman for him. We get a lot more from her in this season as well. It's cool to see. Exactly. Shall we get on to our third case note? Oh, yes. The return of someone else this episode. One batch, two batch.

[00:36:29] Welcome back, Frank Castle. Indeed. Yeah. Bienvenue, Frank Castle. Absolutely. Really cool here, you know, just to get the kind of setup of it. Since no one's investigating the murder of Hector, Matt goes down to find the bullet casing that's missing from the scene of the crime. I loved that earlier on with the coroner where he's going, you know, this guy had a bullet in the head. Where's the bullet? The coroner goes, well, if it didn't come down the bag, not my problem.

[00:36:57] Somebody else's problem, which is why Matt knows the police are kind of covering it up effectively. But he goes back down. And he's using all of his senses, basically, to find where the bullet would have fallen from the shot and finds it in a drain and then notices that there's a little insignia on there, which is the Punisher's insignia. A modified version of it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:37:22] Because we know our Frank's version of his kind of Punisher logo. So this just looks like, again, another different version. And I have to say, how they're depicting a rain of fire, as we used to get commented on in the Netflix.

[00:37:46] The world, they're showing the focus on the ears and the sounds and bringing the shots in and out of focus. It's such a unique way of showing it. And it does really, it really, really does kind of just almost highlight how he does it. And again, Charlie Cox is amazing at that head cock. Yeah.

[00:38:13] Just a slight head cock of like, I'm listening to this thing. You're right. He's so good in this role. And, you know, he's been doing this at conventions for years, as well as the time he was on Daredevil. So he just slipped right back into this role. Really cool to see it. Yeah, I must say, I thought that was all cool, that whole, you know, finding the bullet casing through all the sounds of the little bottle rolling down and what have you.

[00:38:40] I have to say, for some reason, because of the opening with seeing the masked killer and the body in the subway, for some reason, I just expected his hand to be grabbed by, I don't know, the victim or something or someone trying to escape or whatever, for some reason, when he stuck his hand down that drain. Everyone floats down here, Timmy. Yeah, exactly. Like Pennywise the clan, just coming in and grabbing him there. Yeah, yeah.

[00:39:10] Yeah, the drains are going to become important, I guess. If it was Gotham, I'd be saying it'd be killer Croc. Oh, without a doubt, without a doubt. But then he goes and locates Frank Castle. I had no idea where he was going because we didn't see the etching on the bullet at that point. It's only when he arrives at Frank. I had no idea where he was going. I knew that Frank Castle was going to appear in this episode before I saw it. But I was kind of wondering, is he going to get down to his actual underground basement?

[00:39:38] And then, you know, there's a secret hideout where he keeps all of his daredevil gear. And that's where he was going to go and change into it. And now he's going to go out on the streets as daredevil. But no, he finds Frank Castle in hiding, fully bearded. Back to his daredevil season two appearance or maybe his season one of the Punisher appearance. Fully bearded out, locking himself down. But you still see he's got his clue board or his bullet point board behind him.

[00:40:08] So obviously tracking down some people, even though the whole conversation between Matt and Frank is about, you know, maybe you need to do some good out here in the world. Well, the way my throat is, I sound a bit more Frank Castle. A little bit more Frank Castle. Yeah. I did like the fact he called the devil red. Absolutely. So good. Yeah. For me, this was such a unique thing seeing him there. He's like a building supervisor living down the bottom of the building in the basement.

[00:40:36] And essentially just down as just with all those weapons and stuff. He's definitely still doing his Punisher days. So it would be interesting. We do know that there is, it's not really a spoiler. So, because they have publicly said it, that there is a Punisher kind of premiere Marvel selects special being made and written.

[00:41:07] Again, and John Bernthal is directly involved in that. Yeah. We mentioned last week he's co-writing it, which is kind of cool. So I say this is his murder board behind, that we see behind him is definitely going to be one that's going to be like, oh, okay. Whose face is that? I think the showrunner for Daredevil itself, Darius Gardapain, previously worked on the Punisher series as well.

[00:41:33] So that's why he's, I guess, handling the character so well in this episode. You know, it does really feel like those moments that we saw before with Matt versus Frank back in season two of Daredevil. That was one of the central premises of that season was why is Matt's way better than Frank Castle's way? And here we have a little bit of challenge last again. And we have Frank wondering why Matt didn't use his abilities to go directly after Bullseye.

[00:42:01] Why did he put him into the system? And I love it. I love that twisting of the knife still there between the two of them. Why didn't you just kill him? And then it'd be over. And just like Foggy, he'd never be back again. And Matt going, no, that's not my way. I put him in there. He got life. He will never walk out of that prison again. He will never see him again. He's in the system. And still the aggression is there behind the words from Frank, you know, and the words from Matt. It's really good. I love this.

[00:42:30] He got life. But what about Foggy? What did Foggy get? And you're like, ooh. Even just him repeating say his name. Yes. Because Matt isn't. I just thought, you know, I love how Frank pushes Matt Murdock here. A bit like Leroy at the start. And I think that's the thing. It's interesting. There's challenges to Matt.

[00:42:54] Whether it's being Karen from episode one, you know, through to here. And I kind of like them, you know, small and large, close. Absolutely. And personal or otherwise. Whereas, you know, obviously the big one being Wilson Fisk. But here I like that Frank pushes Matt, you know, to confront him about his past. And again, as you say, about the rights or wrongs or otherwise of doing it one way or the other.

[00:43:25] And yeah, I loved how he just knows that, you know, there's an ulterior motive to some extent. What does he say? He says, like, you're here to get permission. Exactly. To use my methods. Yeah. Basically. Yeah. Yeah. So interesting. So Matt is there. He shows him the bullet with the Punisher logo on it, effectively. And he's telling him people are using your name in vain. Frank, it's time for you to come out of the shadows and start punishing them.

[00:43:55] He's kind of giving him a new mission, I think, almost. While Frank doesn't necessarily take up that mission that Matt's giving him here. I think he will. Yeah. I think he will in the future. I think that's going to be his new push. I did find the emotional side of the conversation really good as well, where Frank is telling Matt that he's hearing Foggy every day, isn't he? That he's there all the time and Foggy's pushing him all the time, just like his son is.

[00:44:22] That his son, every time he punishes one of the types of people or the people behind the death of his family, that his son is right there going, get them, Dad. He's here behind him all the time. That's the thing that drives Frank, is that he hears the voices of his family behind him telling him what he's doing is the right thing to do. And Foggy's going to be that for Matt now, is what his, I guess, prediction is for Matt if he does put back on the suit. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's for me, that get him, Dad. I hear that voice. I hear his voice.

[00:44:52] That consistent push. Like, that is why John Berthal is an amazing Punisher and just really encapsulated just that raw emotion, the energy. From what we saw in Daredevil season two, from what we saw in the Punisher season one, that just broken man. Um, and that now is transferring over to Matt. Like, we see this man broken by the death of his friend.

[00:45:22] Um, the inclusion of Karen and Foggy in the beginning, and then Karen coming slightly back later, just really sells of how different his life is now a year later. Um, and that Matt is different. He is born again. He's trying different. Um, so it is so, it's fun to see, fun, excuse me.

[00:45:47] That's, again, sounds terrible, but it is, as a viewer, uh, as a consumer of this media, it's great to see Matt struggle with this, to see very much the, um, the, just the epitome of him trying not to be Daredevil again. Exactly. And just go down that violent route, that Punisher route. And that's it. That is central to the, to the series, right?

[00:46:11] We, we mentioned earlier on that, you know, this show, it feels like the entire series is supposed to get us to a point where Matt feels he's right, picking up the mask, picking up the billy clubs and getting back into the suit to go out and, uh, and be Daredevil again. So, uh, so that felt like the purpose of the series. It is a, it is a nine episode season rather than the original six episodes. So they're expanding that out. They're adding more to it. And we know the initial first two episodes had a lot more in it than the original series was.

[00:46:39] So what we can see here now in the fourth episode, almost halfway through the series, uh, okay, those numbers are slightly out, but, but roughly about halfway through the series, what we see is all of the things that are pushing Matt to go.

[00:46:51] So there is no choice here, but for me to put back on the suit, start being a defender of the people again, uh, in, in the other way, the way I used to do that along with being a defender of the people in the courtroom, uh, now a defender at night as, as Daredevil and having that extra push from Frank going none of your candy ass hero shit. Get out there, put on the mask and protect people like you think I should be doing. And yeah, love it. Love it. And you know, John Bernthal, what can you say? He's fantastic.

[00:47:21] Oh, so good. Yeah. He's brilliant. Yeah. Yeah. Um, let's get on to our case note number four, because something's happening with Wilson Fisk as well. So yeah, as we mentioned, all the things that are pushing Matt to put the Daredevil costume back on, um, similar things are happening to, uh, to newly mayoral Fisk, uh, where he's thinking, I just want to get in here. Everybody knows this area is crap that I'm in. Um, I'm going to rejuvenate the whole area. And Sheila turns around to him and goes, you can't just speak it into existence.

[00:47:51] There are things that need to happen. You know, you need to make plans for it. You need to tell people that you're making those plans. You need to have those plans verified at first. You need to make sure that the things that you want to do are even possible at all. And, oh no, there's still a step before that, which I love because Fisk is trying to tell her, stop, um, telling me the problems, tell me solutions, which I always love from directors and managers and big companies. But you have to also think about the problems, Wilson Fisk. Fisk. And it's like, no, no, get me right back to the first step.

[00:48:19] She just talks over him until she gets back to the first step and goes, right, it needs to be on the, uh, the public advocates document. He has to present it to the city. And if you get that step over, then we'll deal with all the rest of it. And you can just see Fisk is going, oh, she's really telling me all the red tape here, which is a really interesting moment with Fisk. Again, it feels like he's going to start busting heads at some point, but knows he can't. He knows he can't. But when, but when, so this is the interesting part.

[00:48:48] How long does the new Fisk last? You can see the, the, the twitch, the twinge of anger and like with all of the pieces coming. And we can see that the, the Kingpin's empire is crumbling in the background with the other families are starting to big, bicker and squabble.

[00:49:11] But I, I, I'm so interested to see when he does let loose, because that is the Fisk that we saw over three seasons that grew a lot. That menace. And I'll say like, we saw a white rabbit in a snowstorm. The painting. We did see it. We did see it in this episode. A little bit of blood on it. Yeah. Like straight from season three.

[00:49:39] And again, that just reignited for me just this, he hasn't changed. He is that Fisk. And it's going to, we are going to get that man who will take everything. And we saw part of that with the police commissioner. Sheila. And Sheila saw it in this episode with Daniel. Yes.

[00:50:05] Like even though he kind of gave him the reprieve, he said, but if you do this again, it'll be the last thing you ever do. And I loved how the camera just kind of focused on Sheila, who in fairness to Sheila, you know, she said, well, you're my staff. I take responsibility as well for this leak as, you know, the leak on the Red Hook sort of updates and redevelopments and so on.

[00:50:31] And it just lingered on her and she was looking at him. She realized that maybe his criminal past isn't all behind him. And I thought that was really good. But equally, when she was going through the minutiae of public office, I was like, I'm just going to kill her now. Absolutely. At the docks. But I suppose the point is, and Wilson Fisk is smarter than any of us watching the show. Wilson Fisk is the smart guy in the room. He knows it's the end of Mayor Fisk.

[00:50:59] It's the end of his mayoral race if he crushes one person's head. Right. That's the simple fact is he can't crush people's heads. In public. So him keeping Adam in his prison cell, that is his little outlet for the kingpin side of him, for that gruesome person we saw for those three seasons. He's keeping it together. And comic book version of Wilson Fisk gets together for quite a long time. He didn't do anything that could cause problems. And that was with all the eyes of everybody in the city on him.

[00:51:29] And I suppose what makes the character of Sheila really interesting, played by Sabrina Gaffer, as we've mentioned, she's doing a brilliant job. Just the kind of thing she's saying and the line she has in this episode is, I was here before you. I will be here long after both of you. She knows everything that Wilson Fisk does. She knows all the rumors that he was the kingpin of crime. She knows exactly the kind of person he is. She knows how to manage that for long enough until his term ends and somebody else comes in to take over the term.

[00:51:55] But she just occasionally sees flashes of that guy that she could be terrified of. But I don't think we're going to get a moment where Wilson gets angry at a situation that he's in and kills somebody. I think he's going to try and manage all of that to make sure that doesn't happen. I think the only time he's going to have a release is going to be on someone like Adam or maybe on Daredevil in the future. That's kind of it. I don't think he's going to slip. Take that pizza bet. I take that pizza bet.

[00:52:22] Because I think the whole point is that he is going to be, he'll reignite and take his two personas. And you'll have the mayor Fisk and kingpin Fisk both in one go with Vanessa Biaside in both. And essentially you'll have him getting stuff done as a mayor being also being kingpin.

[00:52:48] And kind of like the very comic book like storylines that we would have got where he was both at the same time. And I think that's also the born again subtitle is not just for Daredevil. It is for kingpin. Both of them will take up their mantles by the end of this season. And both of them will be both the kingpin and Daredevil and Fisk and Matt Murdock.

[00:53:16] Both of them will take that jewel identity because it's the only way then. It's who they are, if you want to call it that. Yeah, I mean, I think, I kind of think that as well. I'm thinking he's going to, you know, it's almost Two-Face type thing for the MCU. I think it's also laid down in the diner at the start.

[00:53:41] But yeah, so I kind of think the same kind of thing. I think he'll be able to keep them separate. I do feel as though Sheila might not last his term. She might be the one who lashes out. Yeah, and, you know, it'll be covered up in that sense. I do think as well that I found immense humor in all of this because... Oh my God.

[00:54:07] I think when she was like saying, well, we need to start small and Daniel chips in. Well, is that going to be our next campaign? Absolutely. But there was just... From Fisk will fix it to we'll start small. But even just her rattling off the different procedures and processes, and I was like, oh my goodness, this sounds like where I work. I mean, it literally... It is every government office, yeah. Absolutely. Well, it's any big bureaucracy you've got.

[00:54:36] And it's just like, you know, there's reasons for it, but it's kind of layered on. But I think... No, but it's also just the stuff that she's making him do instead of the stuff he wants to do. Like he set up this meeting with one of the unions, effectively, to start this ball rolling. That all fell apart. We'll talk about that in one second. But the actual stuff that Sheila's got him doing is going to a primary school, a lower grade school, I guess,

[00:55:03] and hearing kids sing, we built this city with rock and roll, completely off key. And I love a little behind the scenes fact from the director who said the kids could sing too well, so they had to get extra kids in to sing so badly to make it sound so much worse. Yeah, that's excellent. So that Wilson Fisk could have a horrible moment where he's going, oh God, I have to get out of here right now. And then he's shuttled off to the next place, which is the Latvian embassy. And they're singing, we built the city with rock and roll in Latvian, Atom.

[00:55:32] He's going, why am I even here? Oh, they gave you an extra 3% in the local area. You wouldn't have won that local area if you didn't get their vote. They were really important in the vote, at least. All of that stuff doesn't matter to Wilson Fisk. He's trying to make a change. We mentioned in the first episode, even the guidance that Sheila's saying, you know, oh, it polls really well if Vanessa's standing by your side when you're on TV. That doesn't matter to Wilson Fisk. He's not trying to get re-elected in five years' time. That's not his modus operandi.

[00:55:58] His modus operandi is fixing the things he needs to fix in the city and getting things done. That's what he believes anyway, and that's what he's telling everybody around him. If he spends all of his days going to primary schools and going to embassies to hear them sing the same song at him in different ways, he's never going to get anything done. And they bump away the only meeting that he was actually interested in, which was the union meeting, because of little Daniel. Oh, dear Daniel. That man will...

[00:56:27] So they are making a joke on the MAGA socialites, and this is a... It is very much just a rip on American politics at the moment, right? That is what they're kind of... They're drawing inspiration for real little kids. I would say so, yeah. Yes, but as we talked about earlier on in the season, Chris, I know you haven't been here for the episode, but as we mentioned, this show was written years before. This was supposed to be a joke on the fact that Donald Trump had been president many years ago

[00:56:56] without any expectation that he would be president now, and now we have it reflecting directly onto actual headlines, and actually the headlines that are out there that couldn't have made up on this show. So, yeah. But Daniel going out, getting drunk with B.B. Yurick. So they have a much closer relationship than we thought they had. We know that the last time she got a meeting with Wilson Fisk was because they were at the nightclub the previous time. So there's just a moment with Daniel where he goes,

[00:57:25] I've got to get up at 8 o'clock in the morning, so I really need to go home now. And then B.B.'s like, oh, no, no, stay around. We've got loads more than I have to go. And he goes, no, no, I have to go home. He's making me work early. And then we find out he was still out until 4 a.m. That was 4 a.m. that he's saying to them, I've basically got to go to work in roughly three hours or two hours' time. I've got to get up and get ready for work. And she's trying to make him stay. I love that little conversation of him being so proud for the person that he works for

[00:57:55] turns into B.B.'s headline that he's going to bust the unions. Now, that's a massive thing in New York. Look, if you come in and you're the mayor of New York and say you're going to bust the unions, that will take you down quicker than saying you're going to clean up the cops, basically. So he's just dealt with the NYPD in some way. And now Wilson Fisk may have to deal with the unions, all because of a drunken moment with Daniel. But his apology when he takes blame for it, I thought was absolutely hilarious.

[00:58:26] When it goes from, look, I know you're going to fire me, but I'll always support you. You'll always have my vote. I'll always do everything I can to keep Wilson Fisk as mayor of our city. And then he goes further and further. And he's like, I'm really sorry because it was a really drunken moment. Well, actually, there was ketamine involved as well. And Wilson Fisk going, you probably need to stop right there. Are you trying to talk yourself out of a job when he's just giving it back to him? That was really good. For me, the Daniel character, the sycophant style, I don't enjoy.

[00:58:54] But I think that's why he's written that way. Yeah, exactly. I think that's the... He is written to be that foil that you don't like. So, well done to the writers. Exactly. You've achieved your goal. So the reason also, very quickly going back to why I think Kingpin will might be Kingpin again is because I think at a certain point we'll see David and Fisk do something and David will back Fisk in front of his boss.

[00:59:22] And I think, and he will go, well, it's your word against ours. That's it. So like, again, like hurting someone. I do have one quick question before we move on to the next case note. Why is he doing the docks and not Hell's Kitchen? Oh, that's his home. He's not going to just rejuvenate and restructure his entire home. I thought he would have kind of like, I'm the mayor, the mayor from Hell's Kitchen fixes Hell's Kitchen kind of thing.

[00:59:49] Hell's Kitchen is always supposed to have been the dodgy little place. And just, I find it interesting. Anyway, it was just, I was like... I guess the Javits Center did it. In the real world. In the real world it did. And I suppose it's that choice of gentrification versus rejuvenation. He's saying in an area that he hates and everybody in the city is saying that's where all the murders happen, that he's going to rejuvenate it. If he went into his area that he grew up in and said, I'm going to gentrify it,

[01:00:19] or if I'm going to rejuvenate it, it would be seen as a gentrification. It would be seen as getting rid of the people who live there and replacing them with rich socialites in New York. He's not going to do that to his local area. His local area. So he probably sees this place as a really bad area of New York. He says everybody does. And I suppose what Sheila's saying is, no, you need to do the surveys to make sure everybody's okay with the plan that you have to destroy their local area. You know? That's where the red tape all comes in, right? Yeah. Yeah.

[01:00:49] So moving on to the final kind of case note. Yeah, our final case note, case note five, is reversing to type. We've mentioned throughout this episode all the things that are pushing Matt to take back up the mantle of Daredevil and potentially pushing Wilson Fisk to crush someone's head and become the kingpin again. And this is what this final scene seems to be about, this final outshow, I guess, of the episode, reversing to type. We have Matt having a night in with Heather unexpectedly.

[01:01:19] There's an interesting point that she makes where she says she never worries about him unless she's in his apartment. That if she's there, she's terrified that he's going to have died in a multitude of ways or gotten kidnapped on the way home or anything like that. But after they have sex, he goes up to his own little hideout where we see all of the Daredevil masks are preserved. All there, including the one from She-Hulk. And a grey one. Uh-huh. Yeah.

[01:01:47] Basically the armoured grey one that he had for a while in the comic books. Very cool look. Very cool. Very cool. We have the mask that he took off at the start of the season without one of the horns gone. That's there as well. And he reaches for his billy clubs and goes out and starts training again. So Matt, after that conversation with Frank, after everything that's happened with Hector and the conversation with Leroy, looks like he's at least starting the path back to Daredevil. Yeah. So I suppose there's two ways to take this.

[01:02:17] So I watched this with my partner and she took it one way and I took it the other. Okay. So she took it as that, which is he's training to kind of essentially just kind of build up his muscle memory to get back out there into the fields. Which is one way. The other is that he's just blowing off steam.

[01:02:39] It's like essentially the, we saw that anger and frustration and fear and everything bubble to the surface with his confrontation and conversation with Frank. So part of it is also just kind of like they say a boxer will get in the ring and go five rounds when he's stressed. So, and he'll go punch a bag. So this is essentially Matt going to punch a bag. Like it's him throwing his billy clubs around on the roof.

[01:03:10] So I suppose that's, there's two ways both are right right now until we see where the likelihood it is. It is him picking up to train again to become a thing because it is that born again. Well, it is the name of it. Yeah. And we did see him up on the roof earlier on in the episode as well. So potentially he does this quite regularly. You're right. That may not have been the first time he went into the room and picked up his billy clubs and started. Started messing him about.

[01:03:37] There's also, you know, maybe he's just preparing in case the attack comes. Maybe he just keeps himself at that peak physical fitness in case he does have to become Daredevil again. So it's part of that. It's just keeping it up, keeping that training up, I guess. It's been a year, but he's still certainly able to handle that belly club like he was beforehand. So, yeah. It was cool though, seeing all the masks. Wasn't it? Yeah. Yeah. No, it was. Awesome. And then on Kingpin's side, as you mentioned, he's keeping...

[01:04:07] It was great seeing all the prisons. His many, many... Also that pasta with the sausage. Mmm. That actually did look good food. It did look nice. It's certainly better than his white omelet. Yes. Yeah. Without a doubt, he is not taking on board his diet when he's down in the prison room with Adam here. But it's interesting that that is basically his sanctuary.

[01:04:36] This is where he is keeping that kingpin side of himself almost is what it looks like anyway. This is where, as you mentioned earlier on, Chris, the painting that was such a major feature of the first three seasons of Daredevil. He keeps that down here on the wall, the rabbit in the snowstorm. Now with added blood. And he's also keeping Adam trapped in a cage for what he did.

[01:05:03] And so despite all the things he's been saying to Vanessa and at his marriage counseling, we absolutely know underneath it all Kingpin's still there. And I don't know why he's keeping Adam alive. I guess he's going to eventually meet out his punishment. And he's enjoying sitting there listening to his screams while he's having his high carb diet, I guess. I guess so. Yeah.

[01:05:27] But yeah, I like the juxtaposition between both Matt and Wilson here. I thought it was really good. Just, as you say, just reversing to type, you know. I mean, whether they've even reverted away from type, you know, they've kept it hidden or kept it under control.

[01:05:52] But in a sense, I guess it's saying there's an innateness to what they do and why they do it. Yeah. And it's starting to come back. Exactly. Exactly. You know, in comic book version of Daredevil, you know, the version of Matt Murdock that the world sees is the lawyer that defends people by day. And then the part that he has hidden is Daredevil by night, you know, the two of them coexisting all the time.

[01:06:18] There's been a much more of a battle between those two sides of Matt Murdock in the Defenders TV shows and in Daredevil, the TV show itself. And here we the only side that people see of Matt is is Matt Murdock, the lawyer. And it looks like, yeah, Daredevil is coming back from the shadows. And in the same way, Kingpin is keeping his that side of him in the shadows. But there is a third in the shadows here as well. There is a third one. There's something else that's been going on in the background.

[01:06:48] We kind of mentioned a little bit earlier on. But just before the opening credits of the show, we saw a masked character taking somebody into the underground. And at the end of the episode with what's going on with Matt and what's going on with Wilson, we see this same masked character, this masked killer taking blood from our draining blood from his victim.

[01:07:16] It's the other big bad, I guess, for the season. It's the other villainous character from the season. And it's the question is, who's going to be dealing with them? Really? Is it going to be Daredevil? Is it going to be Kingpin? We don't have much more to go on in what's been shown on screen in the episodes other than this is happening, I guess, under the watch of Wilson Fisk as the new mayor of the city. And also, I guess, the vigilante group who killed Hector Ayala, a good man who was defending the city.

[01:07:45] But here we have a killer underneath the ground who's not being caught by anybody. Yeah. And look, I think we'll call it out very quickly. And I think, Derek, you said this well already. Be careful out there, fellow defenders. Uh-huh. The internet is rife with spoilers on who this is, what they are, what they've done, what they're based on. It's all there.

[01:08:12] So just be careful when you're kind of looking around on your socials. Because, yeah, just, like, you'll find out more next week or the week after. And it's a really interesting character. It is. Yeah, definitely. Can't wait to see the character in live action. I'm just glad they kind of introduced him. Mm-hmm. You know, there's been hints here from previous episodes. Mm-hmm.

[01:08:36] I'm guessing, you know, for me, the disturbed kid or the teenager or young adult sort of in the queue with Heather Glenn may not be. But as you say, the camera doth linger too long on said character. Yeah, I really can't wait for this character to be properly introduced. It's nice to have these little nods and little ideas that something's going on in the background that we're not aware of and nobody's focused on. I hope they focus on it next episode, actually.

[01:09:06] I think they have to. I'm really excited to see. Yeah. Yeah. I think they've laid up enough clues and pieces and just the closing here. That's it. They will give us something next episode, I hope. Any notes about the episode before we close out our discussion about Daredevil Born Again, Season 1, Episode 4? No, I put most of mine into the main discussion. Yeah, none from me. Excellent. Chris, do you defend this episode of Daredevil Born Again? Yes.

[01:09:36] This is, as I said, Law and Order MCU. And this feels like the transition to just before Act 2. I think that's the way it feels like. They're setting up everything. And I think Act 2 will show, and beyond, will show us the steps closer to Fisk or being Kingpin again. And the steps closer of Matt getting and becoming Daredevil and putting on the suit again.

[01:10:06] And I just can't wait for that. I hope it is, even if it is that last episode, that's going to be the one that I'm going to love. Because the brief tease, taster we got of the old Daredevil in Episode 1 was absolutely fantastic. Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Absolutely. John, do you defend Episode 4 of Season 1 of Daredevil Born Again? I do defend this episode. Give it four fiddle faddles out of five.

[01:10:36] Yeah, I really enjoyed this. Loved that Frank Castle was back. Like, kind of, at least some acknowledgement that there is another big bad in here. Mm-hmm. And just, I guess, seeing what he was doing. Yeah, I liked the whole Leroy Bradford. I just liked how it was paced, this really. And just how, you know, the show is reflecting two people off on one another.

[01:11:05] And you have that here with Matt and Wilson Fisk. So, yeah, absolutely. Really enjoyed this episode. Definitely defend it. Four fiddle faddles out of five for me. Yeah. Fantastic. Derek, what about yourself? Yeah, really defend this episode. I thought it was really, really good and so interesting. Again, it's what they're doing with the character moments to push our major characters to return to their old ways, I guess, to revert to type.

[01:11:33] I think is being excellently handled on the show. The return of Frank Castle, another favourite character for the show. Really interesting. And, yeah, how the episode ends, setting up a mystery of who the killer underground is. It's a great continuation point. I cannot wait for next week's episode. Another three defends there for us. And I think it's time to get down to the pub for Josie's Pulp Quiz for the week. Anybody fancy a drink? Let's do it. Yes, let's do it.

[01:12:02] It's a soothing lemon and ginger with honey tea. There you go, John. In my throat. Not long before we get there for you. Yes. Fellow quizzers, fellow defenders, we are on to question four of Josie's Pub Quiz for this season of Daredevil Born Again. So, here we go. What is the name of the band who originally performed the song covered by the choral school kids and the Latvians? Excellent.

[01:12:31] We built this city. That wasn't worse than the choral. It was so funny, that whole segment. Congratulations. The city never sleeps. John, do you want to get the question one more time? Yeah. What is the name of the band who originally performed the song covered by the choral school kids and the Latvians? Such talent from the kids, as Wilson Fisk would say. I love it. I love that he said that and then that's all he could possibly say and then repeated it again.

[01:13:01] Get me out of this room. Get me out of this room now. Don't want to be here. Fantastic. That's the fourth question of nine. Put those together with the other answers. And at the end of the season, email us to feedback at tvpodcastindustries.com with your answers. Correct answers, hopefully. And you could be in with a chance of getting your hands on some Daredevil born again goodies. But now, it's time to get over to our feedback section. First up, we have an email in from Meryl Smith who says, Greetings again, fellow school shirt wearing enthusiasts.

[01:13:30] I was recently listening to one of your own Gotham podcast episodes and it got me thinking that maybe you guys bring back an oldie from those good old days when you highlight a character that may or may not appear past the episode they're in. I'd like to shoot out the actress who played the niece of the White Tiger. She gave a good performance and from what I know, I think that she may later take on the mantle of White Tiger. Next, I want to put a spotlight on the person that Matt is representing. Pretty raw, phenomenal stuff. Lastly, the person in the chorus.

[01:13:56] While at the same time flirting with Matt, or at least that was my perception of the scene, there was great charisma between the two of them and as always from Charlie Cox. Fisk proving that some leopards can't change their spots by not killing Adam, just keeping him hostage and torturing him like any normal person would. Still rooting for him and Vanessa to work things out. Lastly, let's be frank. Frank Castle, that is. So good to have Jon Bernthal back on the screen and with Charlie Cox. Their scene together was just everything that I ever wanted from the show.

[01:14:26] When I heard it was coming back, the morality, the complex emotions, the pontificating of ethical dilemmas and getting Matt to open up about insert ringtone saying foggy. So good. Hope to see more of the two of them together in the future. Five men working through their marriage via hostage torture. Frank Castle therapy sessions and hints that the devil will return with an almost training montage out of five for me. Fantastic, Meryl. Love it. It was great to see the two of them back on screen together, wasn't it? It was.

[01:14:55] It really was. Yeah, definitely. Lovely stuff, Meryl. Thanks. And should we bring back that thing from Gotham where we used to highlight the guest stars of the week? I think with Gotham it worked really well because we had 22 episodes and it used to come up at the start and say guest starring. I mean, they're likely not going to be coming back because all episodes of Daredevil come out and have been out. We don't know who's going to appear in just one scene in one episode and who's going to be really important for the season. So we highlight them and go, oh, Hector Aiello was absolutely amazing. And suddenly he's got three full episodes.

[01:15:25] So it's a bit less easy as it was back in the days of Gotham. But you're absolutely right. Those are three great characters to highlight from this episode. Really enjoyed them. Yes. Thanks, Meryl. Thanks, Meryl. Yeah. Thanks, Meryl. We also got an email from Coffee and Vodka with this to say, Greetings, fellow Doom Dawning defenders. Laffia, Laferia, Tomato, Tomato. Looks like Kang's officially baked out of the loaf. I can see a lot of people loving the show.

[01:15:54] Most actually, the quality production, the slow build, the continued lawyer centric bent. And in particular, a lot of people gushing over Frank and Matt's intense heart to heart. And it really is of high quality. But it also feels as legally distinct as they had set out to make it. It's crisp rather than visceral. Clean rather than grimy. And new despite the few lexy characters rather than familiar.

[01:16:24] As good as it may be, all I can say is three down and three to go for the Bean Counter episodes. Two to seven. Before we leave Born Again Season 1 behind and continue the Daredevil Season 4 Episodes 1, 8 and 9. Although I hope we'll see some old school style out of the replaced team within the next three. We'll see time tied down a billy club.

[01:16:51] Leaving this on a positive note, that killer at the end seems like a potential great villain. 1.5, adamant incarcerations, frank discussions and training days out of five. Peace and take care, coffee and vodka. Thanks, coffee and vodka. Yes, I agree. This is very, well, first of all, yes. Latvia, Latverio, tomato, tomato. Technically, it would be more tomato.

[01:17:20] Tomato, something that resembles a tomato in the Marvel fictional universe. Yes. So one is a real place. One is not. Tomaco, maybe. Tomaco, yes. Tomaco. Or will they just make Doom from Latvia? No. Because it sounds similar. I don't think they will. No, they can't. They can't. They can't do that. But we'll find out because he will be in First Steps later this year.

[01:17:47] Well, actually, yeah, we know Doom is from, where's Robert Downey Jr. from? L.A.? Yeah. So we know Doom's from L.A. Yeah. Or a version of Doom. A multiversal version of Doom. Absolutely. I'm sorry you're not enjoying the show as much as most people, coffee and vodka. I hope the behind-the-scenes stuff isn't really affecting it. And I'm not seeing the cracks as much as I was expecting to see.

[01:18:15] I know there's a more simplistic story behind it of Matt goes through a court case and he learns something from the person he's defending. I know there's that. And I know there's a little bit of that simplistic stuff going on in Wilson Fisk's story. But I do think, overall, it's hanging together quite well for me, four episodes in for the show, of what they wanted to deliver by the end. But they refilmed so much stuff and had the new showrunner on board for such a long time that I hope it doesn't continue to impact your enjoyment of what they're delivering here.

[01:18:44] I am enjoying it myself, personally. Yeah, I'm with you on that. Again, I think you can see every now and again one of the original scenes versus not. And literally, the only reason you can tell even is that, like you said, one is kind of... I suppose most people wouldn't even see it. It's the fact that we know from behind-the-scenes stuff what some of the original episodes were.

[01:19:11] But I think, overall, this is... No, this is, I think, personally, a great edit. And almost a third of it is brand new. So, like, in my case, nearly a half. It's fine. Nearly. Great stuff. Thanks, Coffee and Vodka, if you thought. Yeah, thanks, Coffee and Vodka. Also, we got some feedback from Victor Von Doom, who says, Greetings, Defenders. This was another hit episode for me.

[01:19:38] I enjoyed hard-hitting drama here, except for Fisk's full day. I laughed out loud at the school scene. The look on his face and demeanour reminds me of recitals I sat through. I felt the Frank vs. Red and Leroy vs. Matt scenes were electric, social commentary, but still very entertaining. I see Angela has some ageing up to do before following her, Tio's footsteps.

[01:20:03] I see Daniel continues to fail upwards, but BB could derail his plans. As usual, the trash talk between Powell and Matt escalates with Matt running the verbal smackdown. I'm feeling Frank has his number. The late scene with Matt ascending to his stash and Fisk descending to the torture chamber is a strong portent of what is to come. Lastly, will the character in the subway have the same powers as the comics? Excelsior.

[01:20:33] Victor Cherry Von Doom. P.S. Does Adam keep his hands after this episode? Probably not, because the paintings were gorgeous, according to Vanessa. Unless, unless Wilson wants him to paint with the stubs that he leaves behind. Or is he going down the Hannibal route and those sausages were made out of his toes? Or his fingers. Toes, Chris. Toes aren't the things on your hands. No, but he starts with the toes.

[01:21:03] Because we already saw Adam still have his fingers at that point. I know, but the question for Victor was, is he going to lose his hands? And for some reason he went for his toes. He could have easily just said those were his hands or his fingers. Oh well, anyway. I love the idea that the only reason that Wilson Fisk is going to marriage counselling with his wife is to find out what part of their lover's body is the thing that was attractive enough. And he's going to take his hands because she's now said, that's the reason why I went for him. I love that idea.

[01:21:30] But no, I don't see Adam getting outside of that basement anyway. Again, we were talking last week about whether he would survive the episodes. I'm surprised he's alive right now. But yeah, I think he will be taken out at some point in the future. Let's see. Yeah. Or at least his hands. Great stuff. Thanks so much, Victor. Over to Facebook. First up, we have some feedback on episode four from Dr. Bob Phillips who says,

[01:21:57] Even though this episode knocks off my bar-based titles theory, which would have worked at two levels when we consider it the English justice system, I still enjoyed it. The redemption arc for the serial killer starts here. There's the synchronized answering in therapy when an agreed, maybe, falsehood occurs. There's the complete infatuation of Matthew with the man who happens to be mayor. And while there's not a worn suit or the inside of a church, Red is back in training. But the biggest moral question raised has to be,

[01:22:25] Is it okay to ogle the backside of a blind person as they walk away from a plea bargaining encounter? Well, if it is Charlie Cox, you know, I guess he doesn't mind too much, does he? Dr. Bob, the answer is yes. Yes, it is. Yes, it is. Like, come on, we just saw it live on TV. Well, not live, but we saw it on TV. Oogle, oogle, oogle. And we know Matt Merlock knows that she's ogling him, so he did that on purpose. He bought the suit to perfectly accentuate his assets. Yes, exactly. As they say. Exactly. There you go. Thanks, Dr. Bob.

[01:22:54] Thanks, Dr. Bob. We have some feedback from Joe Herbers, who said, Having not watched the Netflix series, I assume those who have got more out of the scene with Frank than I did. Yes, Joe, they did. But if you have time, go back and watch some of the Netflix ones. I think you'll enjoy it. Joe went on to say, Fisk having Adam in a cage was too obvious to be interesting. Watching him be a mayor is an exciting TV so far. Sorry about that, Joe.

[01:23:22] Yeah, I think, look, as you kind of heard in this episode, I'm pretty sure he'll be back to his king-pinning ways. King-pinning ways. By the end of the series, but at least hopefully just before. So give it time. Give it time. Yeah, it must be really interesting to watch the show, having not watched any of the Netflix shows. Because as we used to talk about at the time, the Netflix shows were 13 episodes. And you'd have regular episodes, which would just be people sitting talking.

[01:23:50] And the excitement you find and the interest you find is in a drama of people's interactions with each other. And while this Disney Plus show isn't as long as the Netflix shows, it's certainly a lot longer than any of the dramatic Marvel shows have been on Disney Plus. You know, it's got nine episodes, nine full, almost hour-long episodes versus the usual six hour-long episodes.

[01:24:12] So it's interesting seeing it through the perspective of someone that hasn't seen the Netflix shows coming in, not having that vision of the Marvel shows and coming in and seeing what it's like on Disney Plus. So keep watching, Joe. Hopefully you enjoy the rest of the series. But thanks so much for your thoughts, Joe. Thanks, Joe. Yeah, thanks so much, Joe. I hope it gets more exciting as the episodes pass by. Finally, on Facebook, we have John Daniel, who says,

[01:24:40] I might be too late here to make the recording, but you're not, John. You'll be glad to hear. But the young actress in the first scenes at the morgue is an absolute heavy hitter. She is so good when she summarizes what happened to her uncle. Brilliant. Absolutely. It was a really good little moment for old. Angela del Toro. And yeah, summarizing it quite nicely. I suspect she could almost be a lawyer.

[01:25:11] Well, maybe. Maybe. Or she has a justification for becoming a white tiger in the future, potentially. Well, certainly the justification, yeah. Becoming a white tiger to fight the injustice, for sure. That's two of our wonderful defenders who've mentioned the actress. It's Camilla Rodriguez, who plays Angela del Toro. We should definitely shout her out. And Charlie Hudson III, who plays Leroy in the episode as well. Another great presence. So yeah, there's been some great actors coming on board for this season's character actors in the show, aren't there? Yeah.

[01:25:41] No, 100%. Rumor is that they are moving swiftly towards Young Avengers, be it on some form on Disney+, just to bring in Patriot, Miss Marvel, Kate Bishop, all those. Just bring in Wiccan, all those. So supposedly it's coming along, but it is far, far in the future. But now they have White Tiger ready to go. Hopefully, yeah. It'd be cool to see Angela take on the mantle of White Tiger. And she has justification for it, you know? Yep.

[01:26:11] Especially if she sees that Daredevil the Vigilante takes out the killer of her uncle, then there's justification to become a vigilante yourself. That'd be kind of cool. Fantastic. Thank you so much, everybody, for your feedback for this episode. But again, if you want to get in contact with us, you can email us to feedback at tvpodcastindustries.com or, of course, pop on over to our Facebook group at facebook.com slash groups slash tvpodcastindustries. We have a spoiler post up there every week for the episodes as they're releasing. We'd love to hear your thoughts.

[01:26:37] We will be back next week with our chat about Daredevil Born Again, episode five. We're also hoping to begin our podcast about the Wheel of Time soon. As we mentioned, availability permitting. Yes. And hopefully John's voice will get better or Chris will be able to free himself up a little bit more and we may be able to start the Wheel of Time soon. It's been great, though, and really enjoying the first four episodes of the show. Yeah.

[01:27:00] No, I strongly suggest if you haven't watched and you're just waiting, go ahead and get your feedback in to feedback at tvpodcastindustries.com. And let us know your thoughts on the Wheel of Time and, obviously, Daredevil season one, episode five next week. Absolutely. But if you're looking for something else from TV Podcast Industries, we have just finished our coverage of Invincible season three. So pop it over there. Watch Invincible season three on Prime Video.

[01:27:30] It's been great fun. And then you can hear myself and Chris wax lyrical about it for over the course of those nine episodes. It was great fun. That was great. I love that show. Very good. But thanks so much, everybody, for joining us. And thanks for all your thoughts. Yes. Thank you so much. We will speak to you again soon and hopefully sooner than Frank and or Matt have the last talk. Yes. Thank you so much, fellow defenders, for joining us. Until next time, keep watching, keep listening, and, of course, keep defending. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye.