Daredevil Born Again Episode 3 Review

[00:00:00] This is Defenders on TV Podcast Industries. We're back with Daredevil Born Again, Episode 3, The Hollow of His Hand. Officer Powell, good morning. I'm told you have a black eye. I hope everything is okay. Yeah, don't worry about it. You know, there's this thing they say in boxing, the best cure for a black eye is fast hands. Objection. Sustained. Come on, Mr. Murdoch.

[00:00:38] Welcome back, fellow Defenders, to Daredevil on TV Podcast Industries. We're on to Episode 3 of Daredevil Born Again, The Hollow of His Hand. I am one of your hosts, Derek. Hello there, fellow Defenders. I am your other host, John. Welcome back to our coverage of Daredevil Born Again. We're on to Episode 3, and this is our spoiler-filled discussion. Yes, court case this time.

[00:01:06] Indeed, yes, court case. And again, kind of nicely tugging at the old heartstrings on this one. Big time. And a good bit of court tension, I think, as well. And a lot of skulls in the police force, by the looks of it. We'll be talking about that, I'm sure, as we get into our discussion all about the episode. Without a doubt. No, I kind of like this. This is something that is really fundamental to the character of Matt Murdoch.

[00:01:35] And I'd say, if you were to make the Daredevil show back in the 80s, it would be predominantly focused on the cases every week. So you wouldn't have to have that big CGI budget. So I think they took a little leaf out of that when they were originally coming up with the idea for this show on Disney+, that we'd have court cases every week. So to have this really central focus case around a character that is also a vigilante is kind of interesting. It's a great way to use Daredevil and his abilities in an episode here as well.

[00:02:05] So a lot to talk about, though. Yeah, no, absolutely. And I think it reflects sort of Matt's predicament as well. So, yeah, it was really nice kind of reflection back on Matt. Some good things there between him and Hector. But before we get into our discussion, remember, fellow defenders, if you are new or returning,

[00:02:28] please head on over to tvpodcastindustries.com where you can subscribe to the podcast on any good or evil podcast catcher of your choice. We've been around for 10 years covering Marvel, having started off with Daredevil on Marvel's Netflix. So all are welcome from past and present. Absolutely. So please subscribe to the podcast.

[00:02:55] And of course, we love to get your thoughts, theories, observations, comments on all things to do with Daredevil born again. So please send in those to feedback at tvpodcastindustries.com or over on our Facebook group. We have our spoiler posts where you can leave a comment in those posts at facebook.com forward slash groups forward slash TV podcast industries. Yes. Excellent stuff. Yeah.

[00:03:23] And we also want to say Chris will hopefully be joining us later on in the season. Myself and him are closing out our coverage of Invincible this week. The final episode just dropped today in Prime Video. So once that's closed off, he should be free to do either Daredevil or The Wheel of Time. But he does have to catch up on episodes of Daredevil as his time is so much more significantly limited now every week than it used to be. But we're hoping he's going to be able to come back for at least one episode of Daredevil as the season progresses. He better be coming back for more than one. I hope so. Yeah.

[00:03:53] Yeah. It'd be nice to have the three of us on. Absolutely. Absolutely. But let's get into it, John. Let's get into our chat all about this episode. The episode name for this one is The Hollow of His Hand. And this comes in the episode when Heather Glenn is on the date with Matt in his apartment when he's cooking for her. And she gives the cheers that may God hold Foggy Nelson in his hollow, in the hollow of his hand, which is really interesting. So we have had each of the episode titles mentioned in the episodes as well.

[00:04:20] So kind of cool that this one comes in this cheers from Heather. Especially calling back to Foggy Nelson who was killed in the first episode as well. Oh, yeah. Absolutely. And maybe even foreshadowing another death. Maybe. Maybe. On the details behind the episode itself, this episode was directed by Michael Cuesta, who directed episode two and written by Jill Blankenship. Jill was a writer on the TV series The Last Ship and wrote 33 episodes of that show over the course of three or four seasons. And also wrote six episodes of the last two seasons of Arrow as well.

[00:04:50] She will be back for episode seven of Dare to Whale Born Again as well. Very good. Very good. New writer or original writer? Or fixer-upper writer? She was a writer on the original version of this cut of Daredevil Born Again. Interesting. Yeah. We'll probably see it as the episodes go on. If you go onto Wikipedia, you can see the writers for the episodes.

[00:05:14] And when Darius Gardapain is coming in and gets an additional writing credit, it's when he's come in to clean up or change things about the original. I think it was supposed to be a six-episode run. And they've extended it to nine now. Added a couple of extra episodes around. As originally, the show got greenlit for 18 episodes, which I don't think they were ever going to air 18 episodes of a show. In the Disney Plus era, it was always the long-form live-action shows were six episodes.

[00:05:43] The short-form comedies or animated shows were nine episodes. So I think what's happened is we're getting six extended to nine and getting two seasons of nine episodes or nine and eight episodes. Yeah. I mean, it almost feels a bit like an and-all thing where they said, you know, there's whatever it is, 18 episodes and it's effectively two seasons worth. Yeah. And kind of promising at least that sort of block of, like, however you cut it then. Exactly. Like, two seasons or three seasons. Yeah.

[00:06:12] You know, whatever. And I suppose the big news is that season two has started filming now and it's being filmed from scratch. There's no footage that they have to work around like they had to for season one. But I think they're doing a very good job of that. And I think it's not, it doesn't stand out like a sore thumb, which bits are written or which bits are added in afterwards, apart from that little bit at the start of episode one, which was fantastic. So let's see how it plays out for the rest of the series, though. Did you hear how Andor is going to be broadcast? By the way, John, I should say this. Yeah, no. Yeah, I have.

[00:06:42] Coming in buckets of three every week. So it would be effectively a three-hour movie every week for four weeks or five weeks. Absolutely. No, I'm hearing some interesting stuff coming from, I guess, some of the previews. And not really too spoilery. I mean, we kind of know where it goes anyway. But in the sense of sort of backfilling it. And I think there's going to be time jumps as well. So it will kind of advance that rebel cause.

[00:07:10] But I think there's, like, I'd never heard of it, to be honest. But there's talk that the massacre of Gorman or something, which is kind of referenced at some point being another starting point of the rebellion. Interesting. Will be shown. I think it's in canon. Okay. Or it was in canon. But then, obviously, when it all changed, it wasn't in canon. Of course. But it's still there in name in canon. Well, they've done that. They can flesh it all out.

[00:07:39] They trashed everything and then brought back the bits they want to. They've always done that in Star Wars. The canon thing does start to get a little ridiculous. Like, it's kind of like straight jackets being put on and everyone. It's like... The opposite way around. They got rid of all of the canon and they're bringing back bits that they want to bring back to live action. And to the shows that are connected. Yeah, but they just said that the only canon was, like, the first, the original, like, movies or whatever. So, like, I don't know. As I say, I don't really follow it because I couldn't care less. Right.

[00:08:09] Well, when we do have the next Star Wars podcast, we'll talk about all of that kind of stuff. But let's get back to Daredevil. I'm looking forward to Andor. It's coming out next month. So, really excited for that. See how the next and final season plays out there. But let's get back to Daredevil. And, John, do you want to give us the synopsis for the third episode of Daredevil Bored Again? The Hollow of His Hand. Sure. Wilson Fisk's old business associates take advantage of his absence to mount a gang war over his territories.

[00:08:37] Vanessa sends Fisk's right-hand man, Book Cashman, to ease tensions between the gangs. But Fisk believes that they should let them kill each other. Though Matt Murdock's investigator, Cherry, is able to bring the only witness, Nicky Torres, to Hector Ayala's trial, Torres is intimidated by the police. He commits perjury by testifying that he was never assaulted. With no other options, Murdock reveals Hector's secret identity as the White Tiger in open court,

[00:09:06] despite initially pushing against it. With new witness accounts and police records detailing the White Tiger's heroic deeds, Matt Murdock and Kirsten McDuffie successfully convince the jury to declare Hector not guilty on all charges. An angered Mayor Fisk brings in journalist Bibi Uruk and denounces the results of the trial to her and vows to uphold his stance on anti-vigilantism.

[00:09:32] Now a free man, Hector Ayala, wastes no time in donning his White Tiger costume and patrolling the city because it's the right thing to do. But he is quickly and brutally murdered by a man wearing the Punisher's skull emblem. We were very specific on how we wrote that, weren't we? Yes. I will say the first time I saw this episode, I'm sure we'll talk about it, the first time I saw this episode I went, What? Is that how you bring in Frank Castle?

[00:10:01] Well, absolutely, same. Same for myself. And I mean, it was kind of a weird one anyway because you're like going, Okay, I know he's one of those heroes that can kind of like, you know, also butt up against other heroes and kind of is that anti-hero? Yeah. But I'm like going, would he do something like that? Is he, would he really go after someone like Hector Ayala? Or, um, I just don't know.

[00:10:29] So, um, the second time, you know, yes, it becomes maybe a little bit more dubious because this is flagged so much. Yeah, we'll talk about it in the point itself. When we get there, we will talk about it. But that is definitely the intention of the episode is for you to leave the episode going, Oh my God, it's Frank Castle. And they just introduced him murdering a really nice guy. And we don't know any different because we haven't seen episode four yet.

[00:10:58] So we are suspecting that it's not him though. But shall we get into our top five case notes, John? We'll start out with case note number one. And I think I fixed my gavel bangs for this week, John. Last week, I was able to fix it. So hopefully you've heard the gavel, the gavel bang to introduce us to our case note number one. Absolutely. Bang, bang. Yes. Case note number one. Who is the kingpin? What is the kingpin?

[00:11:28] Why is the kingpin? Yeah, it's just this kind of really interesting question that the opening of the episode poses. We have these two gangs who were previously kind of under the control of Vanessa in the city while Wilson Fisk was away during the time of Echo and Hawkeye, as we know. Vanessa was kind of making sure that nothing was happening between the gangs.

[00:11:49] And the opening of the episode is effectively one gang, the Irish guys, who I think might be referenced back to, I think it was season two of Daredevil where we had the Irish gang opening up that season. It opened with them. But we have one of them basically stealing trucks from the other and trying to steal wallets from the other and then turn their guns on them. So a little bit of gang warfare kicking off because Vanessa's not being allowed to go down and calm down the situation. And Wilson Fisk isn't willing to go down there to calm down the situation.

[00:12:20] Yeah, I mean, I think what they say over the awkward breakfast, you know, the gangs are misbehaving or Vanessa says because no one is there at the head of the table. You know, both Fisk and Vanessa are putting up a different front at this moment. And so they're not there to control the other gangs.

[00:12:43] And indeed, they are discussing these things over breakfast and about whether they should clean money by purchasing significant artwork, but also then just before their therapist comes into the room as well. You know, so there's a lot of discussion here.

[00:13:03] But, you know, that you really see here at the breakfast and after that truck hijacking at Red Hook, but also the murder of two members of one of the gangs, you know, that for Fisk, this warring is not his concern. Yes. What did he say to Vanessa? I'm reaching for higher goals.

[00:13:24] Yet, I do like the fact that in that moment, there is a pandan of the camera to see Fisk's knuckles that are kind of like slightly bloody and damaged. I mean, they're not bleeding in any sense, but they've clearly been damaged.

[00:13:45] They have been sort of injured and they're kind of red raw or, you know, even with a scabby wound type thing. Yeah. And you're just there going, OK, that's really, really nice way of potentially showing some kind of duality with Fisk.

[00:14:09] And it's interesting because a feeling from this episode for me is that I'm not entirely sure that Fisk is being fully upfront with Vanessa. And even whether the flirt that she had with Adam, whilst he keeps saying that's not an issue, not a problem.

[00:14:32] I just wonder, is he like really seeking to sort of get her back for that some kind of revenge or... That's what she says, isn't it? She thinks that she's being punished for having that relationship with Adam. And it was a relationship. I wonder, is that where the broken knuckles of Fisk have come from as he smashed in the face of Adam, despite saying to her that he wasn't going to touch him?

[00:14:57] Well, that's it because I'm like, you know, all those injuries on his knuckles, is it born of frustration? Or is it born of him doing a deed that he's basically saying he's not doing and he's above that? Or is he literally punching the wall in his office when he has to walk away from... Or when he has to have some diplomatic relations with someone that he doesn't like and wants to punch? He just goes back into his room and cracks the wall open. Maybe that's it.

[00:15:25] So I really, really enjoyed those touches here between Vanessa and Fisk. And just the uncertainty around Fisk's role here. Yes, he is the myrrh, but is he still the kingpin? You know, is he still Vanessa's forever loyal husband? Yes, he still loves her. He still wants to be with her. But is that a front?

[00:15:54] You know, it's kind of he can be so distant and so cold. And maybe Vanessa's flirting with Adam and his time away from her. You know, things have moved on. But he, you know, again, it's caught up in the politics of being myrrh and poles and needing to look like the, you know, the myrrh that is married and happily married and so on. Yeah.

[00:16:22] I kind of like all that hidden meaning. Yeah. That, you know, I guess intrigue around his actual core character. Exactly. Well, it's something I wanted to talk about as well, because if you think back to Echo, which was the last time we saw Kingpin, he was taken out by a superpower that Echo convinced him effectively to step away from his businesses almost. Yeah. So I wonder, is there a little bit of that feeding into who Wilson Fisk is now?

[00:16:49] She went inside his mind, remember, and was able to see him as a child, was able to to dig out that portion of his life where he killed his father. So potentially there is actually quite a big connection to what Echo did to him as to why Wilson Fisk doesn't want to come back and be the kingpin of crime anymore.

[00:17:07] But also from a comic book standpoint, from this character standpoint, this is a criminal who's learned that actually the amount of power you get being an officially elected office versus the power that you get being on the street dealing drugs or killing people or having petty crime. That's his realization here. That's why I think he's saying to Vanessa, we're looking for much loftier goals than cleaning a mere two million. We're looking to control an entire city.

[00:17:32] And I have it in my grasp if the two of us work together and pretend like we are the perfect couple, we will rule the city. So you mentioned earlier on that they are working together on this. I don't think they're together at all at the moment. I think there is a lot of tete-a-tete between Vanessa, who is being completely undermined by Wilson Fisk, is being told, you know what? You used to be able to go out and control five families in New York and just pay them off. And everybody was having happy relations and good chats together. And now I'm back.

[00:18:02] Now you have to be the good wife. Now you have to sit in our apartment at the other end of the longest table in the world while we have breakfast and do nothing other than be my wife. That's your job now. And I think there's real tension there with Vanessa. And what I think was most interesting here was it was Vanessa that sent Buck, who we thought was Wilson Fisk's right-hand man. It was her that sent him down to pay off, not to pay off the families, but to negotiate the treaty by telling one family they had to pay a couple of million to the other to solve the issue.

[00:18:32] So I had thought, oh, Wilson Fisk's actually still controlling this guy, similar to Wesley in the first season of Daredevil. But it's not him. It's Vanessa that does it. Yeah. I mean, I totally agree. I thought that Buck had been sent by Fisk. But ultimately we find he'd been sent by Vanessa. And I mean, even just the fact that, you know, I don't work for the mayor, I work for the man. Which was an interesting thing.

[00:18:59] And again, I thought that was feeding into, I don't work for the mayor. I work for the man who is the mayor. I'm Wilson Fisk. I thought that's what he was saying. Or indeed, you could argue, because it's the name that they know, Kingpin. Right. And so that's what I thought he was getting at there. And I mean, ultimately, I think he probably still is Wilson Fisk's right-hand man.

[00:19:28] But I think Vanessa was asking him to go down and do it. Whether it's, whether Buck is actually her man, I think that still needs to be kind of seen. Yeah. And sort of explained and played out. Yeah. But I do like the fact that, yes, you just immediately assumed it was Fisk that had sent him to basically cut the nonsense out. Yeah. And I kind of like that.

[00:19:56] It turns out Fisk was just willing to have them kill each other. He didn't really care. It's below his pay grade now. That's kind of the deal. So, yeah, I wonder if this is going to become a central battle between the two of them as the season goes on. As Vanessa and Wilson work out where their real place is going to be. Does Vanessa follow on and become the good wife? Or does she go back to her kingpin ways or queenpin ways, I guess? Be interesting to see. Yeah. She's had a sniff of it now.

[00:20:24] So, it might be difficult to go back, I think. Yeah. Exactly. And that is borne out by her conversation at the breakfast table, but also with her instructions to book. Exactly. Exactly. A up book. But let us get on to our case note number two. Yes, case note number two, getting Nicky Torres to court. So, after they were able to free him from his apartment last week, Matt taking on the two cops there.

[00:20:55] Now it's a game of how you get Nicky Torres to court to make his grand statement in front of the jury to free Hector Ayala. Surely that would be the way it goes, isn't it? No, everything has to be a bit more complicated. So, Nicky Torres, not only is he a bit scared about the idea of being in court, he's also a heroin addict. Yes, he's totally on edge. Yeah. He's totally on edge.

[00:21:20] I mean, even you see him coming out of the safe house with Cherry and his other colleague. And obviously, they have to do a switcheroo to get Torres to the courthouse. Yeah. I called it the shell game. Yeah, exactly. Where Cherry drives one truck. He's the one that's followed by Powell and by the other NYPD officers. And it turns out there's nobody inside the truck.

[00:21:45] They just took a taxi to the court bringing Nicky Torres with them. Interesting one with Officer Powell because, you know, technically Matt Murdock did beat up the police officer in the address of Nicky Torres. So, I was wondering how it was going to play it in this episode. And we have him trying to intimidate Matt in the bathroom in court. And what an interesting scene that was when Matt was kind of going, well, you know what? You were there to intimidate a witness.

[00:22:11] I think they'll probably come down pretty hard on you for that rather than the blind lawyer that beat you up. And NYPD cop. Yeah, yeah. And who the other person was and why there was a gun there. Yes, exactly. But again, I was like, you know, Officer Powell is not really helping either because, you know, Cherry is an investigator of a law firm. And equally, you know, he flashes a badge. He does. Yeah.

[00:22:39] No, but I mean, they do have rights. He's looking to, he's an investigator. Yeah. And it's also not only intimidation of the witness, but again, flagging down and effectively looking to intimidate the witness again and threaten an investigator of the court or of the court firm. So, yeah, I think, yeah, Officer Powell is either very well connected.

[00:23:08] Yes. Or he is very sure of the backup within the force that he would get to protect him. And you do kind of see this as well in the courtroom where you have Matt zoning in on, again, a number of the, well, the general conversation from the ranks of police that are in the public gallery of the court.

[00:23:36] But they focus in on another police officer who has also a punisher tattoo. Yes. Who says, you know, Torres can't testify here. Yeah. So Torres knows something about something that means he cannot testify here. Well, absolutely. Well, we know he was there. He's the only witness that Powell is lying to the court.

[00:23:59] Like the statement that Powell is making under cross-examination from the DA is effectively that the two of them were there minding their own business, just waiting on their train. And the crazy eyed Hector walked in and then, you know, playing to the courtroom full of MIPD officers. Like, you know, the look if you've been around as long as I have. You know, the look of the crazy guy that's walking in. You know, he's going to be there to kill one of you. And then he just picked up my partner and threw him in front of a train, you know.

[00:24:26] So far from what happened with Hector coming in here. Yeah. No, absolutely. But equally, he's pretty beaten up on the stand. He is. And I'm guessing that came from Matt. I don't think. Yes, it did. Absolutely. But that's what I mean. So I was like thinking, how does that look to the jury that he is there?

[00:24:48] Because as well, Matt does have him on the ropes, you know, like because he references Nicky Torres. That's why they know about him. Exactly. And he denies knowing who he was. And then Matt. But there is that sort of awkward pause. But equally, he's all beaten up. And I'm like going, is that good for Matt in that? Why is this guy beaten up if there's been a court appearance previously?

[00:25:18] Or is it bad in the sense that he could argue this is from Hector? Well, no, because he was in court without the bruises the previous day. So the jury will have seen him without the bruises. He can't say it's from Hector. And with that conversation in the bathroom, effectively, Matt saying to him, yeah, but if you tell them it's from anybody else, you're effectively saying you were at Nicky Torres address, I can say that you went there to intimidate the witness. I love how Matt starts off his interrogation of him on the stand because he goes, I've been told you have a black guy.

[00:25:48] My father used to tell me the best cure for a black guy is fast hands, which is a great little put down of I was there. I'm the one that beat you. If your hands were faster, you would have blocked me and not gotten that black guy that you've got. Nice little joke, a jokey attack, I guess, from Matt. But it does all go down with Nicky being brought to the court. Eventually, he's the star witness. He's the one that the whole case hangs on. If he says to them, oh, actually, Hector A. Alice arrived here. He saved me.

[00:26:18] I was able to get away. And the police officer accidentally fell in front of the train. Then case sorted. All seems to be going relatively well. Nicky admits that he used to have an addiction problem, was going to be going down for the crime that he was caught for. But it was squashed when he agreed to be an informant for the cops. He says all of that. But he says that he wasn't there that night. And they have to take him off the stand because now the case is all up in the air again. For sure.

[00:26:46] I think there's that nice moment sort of post that bombshell where Nicky effectively doesn't pull through and commits perjury. I mean, I think they'd say it's a hostile witness. That was one of the options that was available for Cherry that Cherry was suggesting. They could treat him as a hostile witness. But here, he's there. One, he's supposed to be there on their behalf. He's going against the statement that he's made that has been brought to cause.

[00:27:13] And so technically, there's a perjury element there as well. But I think it's like Matt says the defense has flushed down the toilet due to Torres. Or maybe it was McDuffie. And Matt says the only move left now is for Hector to come clean about who he is. You know, so that really, I think, sets up our case note number three. So on to case note number three. The white lotus.

[00:27:42] I mean, the white tiger. The white tiger. Yes, absolutely. And this is all predicated on that conversation last episode between the DA, the judge and Matt. Exactly. That they had to keep back the idea that Hector was the white tiger. That if that comes into open court, if the jury hears it, even if the police officers in the court hear that he's the white tiger, that could be the end for Hector. Yeah, and I mean, it's really interesting, this whole bit, actually.

[00:28:09] I love this aspect of the court case of Matt's interaction because, you know, it is just so reflective of him as to whether he should go back to being the daredevil. His relationship with that costume vigilante. Yeah. Ultimately, about, you know, whether it puts other people in danger, whether or whether it's necessary. And this kind of plays out in the court case.

[00:28:35] But I do, I think what really sets it apart is because, I mean, that's, we expect that. We expect that from a daredevil. But what's really important is that Matt is making these assumptions of someone else, of another vigilante, the white tiger. And I think that moment back in the cell where Hector says, it wasn't your secret to tell. Yes. You should have asked me. It's just, is absolutely great TV.

[00:29:05] And it's, you know, it's almost like a double standard, actually, of Matt. I mean, Matt is really, I get it, he's risking everything to win the case. But equally, his concerns previously in the judge's chambers around his safety ultimately get borne out. And it's also this misrepresentation. I mean, ultimately, as the judge says, you open this can.

[00:29:32] And so it's open season in the courtroom, which is where he's really meaning it. But it's open season in the courtroom from the DA on Hector as the white tiger. Yeah. But equally, you could infer it's open season beyond this courtroom by doing what you're doing based on your previous arguments in this. And that's why I just really liked about this. Yeah, loved it.

[00:30:02] But in Matt's defense, and I will have to, you know, this is a law show. I will have to give Matt some defensiveness here. He specifically said to Hector, after revealing his secret, he said to him, you can never wear this outfit again. They know who you are. They know you're the white tiger. You cannot wear this outfit ever again. That's the price you pay. Yes. And when Hector said to him, it's not your secret to tell, Matt's response was very true. He was absolutely telling the truth. He was trying to keep Hector alive, not just win a court case, not just get Hector out of jail.

[00:30:32] Hector would die in jail or out of jail. And if he gets out of jail and puts on the white tiger costume again, that's what Matt told him. You will die. No, I agree. But it's also Matt projecting his feelings, his complex relationship on Hector. Yeah, absolutely. You know, he says you won't miss being him. He doesn't know that. He simply does not know that. That's what he is saying. Whether it is to reassure himself.

[00:31:01] He's saying you'll be surprised over time how little you miss him. And that's been Matt's experience. You know, I think Matt is projecting here and he projects too far, in my opinion, because I do believe he should have simply asked him. If he said no, fine. But he does do it in open court and it plays out.

[00:31:23] And the testimonials in the end fall on or in favour of Hector in terms of him helping members of the public, but also the reports and the reporting by police officers where he's helped them. Where they see him as an ally. But equally, Hochberg makes his counter and makes that point as well.

[00:31:53] Just because he does good, that doesn't mean he can't do bad. And it is. That's like the false premise. Just because someone has done good in their life doesn't mean to say, yeah. So he does make the counter. But in the end, the jury doesn't take that view. And I think that's really kind of interesting, you know. Yeah. Because Hector explaining what his version of events in the subway.

[00:32:23] He says he was about to go home and next to his wife, we're going to get an apartment. He says he was going to bring the flowers home. He saw somebody in danger and stepped in because it was the right thing to do. And what Matt has proved that on multiple occasions, that's exactly what Hector's done. He stepped in because it's the right thing to do. Giving all of those testimonies from other police officers who sees an ally, from the public who say they wouldn't be alive if it wasn't for Hector or Ella. Making that decision to jump up and help and save people. You're right.

[00:32:52] This is all to do with, you know, what's going on in Matt's mind about his time as Daredevil as well, you know. But that's what wins over the jury. It's all of that combined information. Yeah, you can absolutely say just because someone does good things one day doesn't mean they won't do a bad thing the next day. But there's no proof of that. That's a bad premise from the DA there. Matt wins the case by bringing enough evidence of this guy's good life. I mean, there's no, as I say,

[00:33:21] The court case, you know, there is a slight contrivance to it in that there's no CCTV from a New York subway station. I think they mentioned in episode one that that was destroyed, but I can't remember. Maybe, maybe. I thought they said that it was destroyed. But you're absolutely right. There should be hundreds of errors of footage of a subway station.

[00:33:44] Like, the notion of building a case and any DNA evidence, you know, to say that, well, there was DNA evidence that Hector was there. Like, equally, that Torres was there. Like, you, I mean, her or whatever, you know. So, it's kind of interesting. So, like, I get it.

[00:34:07] You know, that's all we get from Hockberg is saying, you know, the defense's argument is based on a false premise. You know, it's also the other little chestnut that gets reeled out is that, you know, real heroes don't need to hide. But it's really good. And I like the way that you have this kind of tension around with Nicky Torres.

[00:34:32] Then the fact that you have Matt having to take this big swing due to the Torres witness being effectively useless and spooked. You kind of get Hector's story as well in terms of the apartment and the flowers to surprise his wife the following day. Like, really hopeful. The inspiring reasons for Hector because it's right. You know, just that simple message.

[00:34:59] And the jury's verdict ultimately coming as not guilty on all three counts of murder in the first or second degree and manslaughter as well. So, it's really good. And I think that really sets up the pain of what happens at the end. Absolutely. And I think that's it for the court case. Yeah. Him getting free and him being freed because of the weight of evidence that Matt delivers.

[00:35:27] But there is one other impact which takes us on to case note number four. Yes. Fisk and the BB report. Yes. BB Uric. Yes.

[00:35:37] He asks her to come in because actually Fisk is watching the TV as Hector leaves the court, a free man, and gets Daniel, the new kid on the block for Sheila, to get BB Uric in. Yeah. He wants to see her again. Because it's massively important.

[00:36:00] The court case has just got on where what Fisk knows behind the scenes is a costumed vigilante has just gotten another costumed vigilante away with murder. Effectively, is what Fisk is thinking that's happening. This goes completely against his entire premise of how he got elected. This idea that he wants to get rid of every single vigilante in the city of New York. And look what's happened. Two vigilantes have effectively worked together and gotten free. So he is frustrated. He's angry.

[00:36:30] He's so annoyed. And the fact that it's at the hands of his old nemesis, Daredevil, is probably frustrating him even more. So he reaches out to BB Uric and gets her in to tell her this information that he is, he vows to uphold this stance. He's completely against the verdict in the trial. Some juries can be wrong. That's not going to sit well in the mayor of, Mayor Fisk's city of New York. It's so interesting. I love. And he says the courts can be wrong.

[00:36:57] So it's not even the lack of faith in the jury's decision. It is the lack of faith in the courts. Yeah. So again. Look what happened to me, he says. It's this start to try and undermine the justice system. Absolutely. And yeah, it is really, really interesting. And BB Uric, the social news anchor, which she is, is the right person to go to.

[00:37:25] So you hear in the background, Sheila going, but we have people at the Times. We have people at the New York Daily News. You know, we have people everywhere. If you want to release a story, you talk to them and you see in Fisk's mind, he's like, oh no. BB Uric's the right person to get this message out to the real people, my real followers. So again, this is tied in with somebody else out there. Yeah. And I like how the BB report over this episode sort of focuses on whether Hector is going to get a fair trial or not. Yeah.

[00:37:54] And that's what makes me feel there's more to come from BB Uric. And whether Fisk is kind of aware that she might do something that's not quite as beneficial to him, I don't know. Yeah. I suspect he probably has an inkling because he knows that Ben Uric was a top quality investigative journalist because he killed him for it. So. Yeah. You know. And she's named after her uncle. So hopefully she knows.

[00:38:23] I hope there's something bigger there. And it's not just that she is the manager of social news network, the BB report. Something interesting. I didn't know when the episodes were airing originally, but some of the people that are being interviewed are comic writers behind Daredevil. Some of those people that are the Vox Pops that are talking to camera for BB Uric. They're people that have been behind the scenes writing Daredevil, which is quite cool. Yeah. No, that's great. Yeah. The real people on the street.

[00:38:51] Anything else about Fisk and BB for this episode, John? No. Nothing from me. Just to keep an eye on them. That's all. I think just, yeah, absolutely. It's an interesting relationship. It is. And I think another one that will come screaming interview in this series pops up in our case note number five. Mm-hmm. Punisher? Question mark. Mm. Kills Hector. Yeah. Does he? Doesn't he?

[00:39:20] As I say, does he sort of raise his head here or not? Whatever, whoever it might be, the Punisher is brutal and it's a brutal execution. It is. You know? Yeah. It's not beyond the realms of it being the Punisher. I think it is.

[00:39:42] I think even the Punisher that we've seen in the Marvel Cinematic Universe, I think him walking up to a guy who is a vigilante and just shooting him in the head, that doesn't seem like our Frank Castle. No, it doesn't. I totally agree. I'm just saying the Punisher is brutal. And, like, I mean, that's why initially I was, like, going, did he just do that? Obviously, you get the skull on the T-shirt.

[00:40:07] But then you're just kind of going, to your point, that he can't put on that suit again. And yet he does. And he goes out.

[00:40:48] Yeah. And then that's the first shock that that happened. Sorry. And then the next shock is there's a gun to the temple of his head. The trigger is pulled. And the person that walks away is wearing a Punisher T-shirt. They're two major shocks. And I think that's why for a few seconds you're going, is it the Punisher? No, exactly. But it can't be. And then you realize the Punisher doesn't wear his own Merc. Oh, he does. He wears his shirt. No, I know he does. But, like, that just looks a little, like, fan-based. He's the Merc with the Mouth. Yeah. Merc with the Mouth.

[00:41:18] Merc or Merc. Merc. That's it. But, yes, one of the big things in the real world, as well as in the comic books, that the character of the Punisher, Frank Castle, has had to deal with is people not actually understanding his motivation. People not realizing that his motivation is effectively the opposite of Batman. So Batman goes out to trap the criminals, to put them in prison to make sure they don't commit a crime. And then they go back out of prison and commit more crimes.

[00:41:44] The Punisher's modus operandi is, if you commit a crime and you kill people and you're dangerous, I will put a gun against your head and kill you so you will never commit a crime again. He has gone up against criminal organizations, mobsters, gangsters. He's gone up against corrupt cops. He's gone up against army people. He's gone up against superheroes who have crossed the line into villains. He's gone up against villains. But it's quite a complex remit.

[00:42:12] But throughout the stories and throughout real life with people getting tattoos of the Punisher symbol and throughout the comics of the Punisher, there have been this group of people who have formed because they think the Punisher speaks for them. And Frank has actually taken a lot of them out in comic books. He's gone back after those people who have taken his name in vain almost to allow them to murder people that don't deserve to be murdered. No, exactly.

[00:42:39] And you suddenly realize this is, you know, with all the Punisher tattoos being seen, this is probably a New York police officer. Yes. That's probably a group in the NYPD who are together. And their concept is we will use the Punisher's methods to take out anybody that stands against

[00:43:03] us, which includes someone like Hector who got away with, in their minds, the murder of a cop, even though he had really nothing to do with the cop, tripped and fell in front of a train. It's a horrible tragedy. Terrible that it happened, but had nothing really to do with Hector. Yeah, exactly. And I think that's why, you know, more light on Nicky Torres and Officer Powell will be interesting here. Yeah.

[00:43:29] And I suspect if Frank Castle is going to bring about his vengeance on those killers, we might get a confession from them via Frank. Yeah. Yep. Let's hope. And let's hope we get to see Frank Castle later on in the season. I know we will. I know we'll get to see. Yeah, we will. Absolutely. For the trailer. I just wonder, will he be like next episode or will he be in episode five? I'm hoping so. I'm hoping so. Yeah. Be good to see him back.

[00:43:58] John, are you going to notice for the episode anything we haven't mentioned? Is there maybe a certain watch of whiskey? There certainly is. In fact, there's two whiskey watches. One, purely that we know that Murdoch and McDuffie, along with Cherry, are drinking bourbon. But we don't see the bottle. We don't. They do a nasty cutaway. But you hear the glug, glug, glug into the glass. Quite a big bourbon as well by the sounds of it. Absolutely.

[00:44:23] Well, I think even Kristen says we're going to need another bottle of bourbon to deal with this issue. So this is how they get through the night almost in their firm is to drink some bourbon. But I wonder if, because we hear the sound, because it's a very specific call, I wonder if they just couldn't get clearance from the particular company that they used the bourbon from. Maybe. Potentially. But it sounded like it was definitely going to appear on screen and then they had to be taken out for the last minute. Yeah. I don't. Yeah. Maybe. I don't know. I think.

[00:44:52] I don't think they know about our whiskey watch. So I don't think it's unusual that you don't see the bottle of whiskey and you just hear the accompanying soundscape of whiskey being poured and so on. But the only reason I say it is because if you remember back to like season two of Jessica Jones, which is Jessica Jones is where the whiskey watch started. I think the first season of Jessica Jones. And when it got to season two, suddenly it was like when we saw a label of a bottle, it was something mocked up by the art department because they knew idiots like us were looking

[00:45:21] at the label of the bottle to try and work out were they buying really expensive whiskey or not. And it turned out it was all just being created by the art department. So now they're going, look, we're not even going to do the art department creating the label now. If we're not going to get it sponsored, we're not going to show it on screen. That's what I think has happened. Absolutely. But we do get another bottle as well. Oh, Melvinies, which is the same bottle in another episode, the first episode.

[00:45:45] And which is one of Matt's private stash of this very expensive whiskey, which he pours to toast both Hector and Foggy Nelson as he is, again, dating and cooking for Heather, the therapist. A man that can cook. See, that's what you need. And not chop his fingers off. And not chop his fingers off.

[00:46:13] See, it's pretty good, pretty good talent to do that. I'm pretty bad, even though I have got my full sight. So they're my notes. Excellent. It's the whiskey watch for this episode. Derek, any notes from yourself? Just one that I wanted to mention because I just thought the framing of it was fantastic. Matt sitting in the empty courtroom the morning before the final statement, I guess. It really felt like he was in church and almost his new church now that he's no longer attending

[00:46:41] the Catholic Church because of the things that have happened over the years. We don't see him going to church so far this season. So it seems like the courtroom has kind of replaced that. I just thought it was a beautiful shot when he's just sitting on his own at what looks like a pew with the sun streaming in and the bench right in front of him. I just thought it was a beautiful shot. And yeah, something different for the character of Matt Murdock, who's inexorably tied with his Catholic roots to have him at worship in his new church, John List.

[00:47:12] Excellent. Yeah. Good stuff. It was quite cool. Great symbolism, actually. Yeah. Yeah. So, John, then, do you defend Daredevil Born Again, Season 1, Episode 3, The Hollow of His Hand? Yes, I really do defend this episode. I love this the second time I watched it more so than the first. Right. Courtroom dramas sometimes, unless they're really good, just don't capture me. Like, A Few Good Men I love, for example. Of course, yeah.

[00:47:41] But I thought this was really, really good. And I think it was the fact that it just gave that whole dubious sort of projection of Matt and his previous vigilante or, you know, masked, costumed hero life. And he projected that onto Hector. And Hector does call that out. I know it was to protect him. I know it was to win the case and so on.

[00:48:09] But Hector is still saying, you remove my agency to be the person in control of my secret. Exactly. And you should have asked me. And he didn't. He assumed. And I like that dubiousness and how it was brought in and how it reflected the battle that Daredevil is having within himself about him not being Daredevil since Foggy's death.

[00:48:37] And then, I guess, having another shocking death at the end with Hector being killed by the man coming out from the shadows with the Punisher t-shirt, whether that's Frank or not. You know, given that Hector is freed, the verdict goes his way, Matt wins the case, and you hear that actually that evening as he goes onto the subway, he was doing something really nice for his wife

[00:49:07] and had bought an apartment. You know, it's for the future. It's just another real rug pull here. And I thought it was just done really, really well. And I'm just loving some of the relationships as well here, whether it is Fisk and Bibi Uric, as well as Fisk and Vanessa, and how that is playing out. I thought it was, I thought they were just really, really good.

[00:49:36] So I absolutely love this episode. I'd give it four and a half breakfast marriage breakdowns out of five. Fantastic. Yeah, really enjoyed it. Excellent. Derek, do you defend episode three of Daredevil Born Again? Yes, I do. Absolutely. I think this is how you sell a Daredevil show. If you're the one that's going to be the guiding hand behind Daredevil, you go, look, look how great the courtroom drama shows are.

[00:50:05] You know, look how many of them there are on TV. There's hundreds of them. All we have here is a superhero. He goes to court during the day, prosecutes the bad guys. And if they get away, he takes them out at night as Daredevil. That's how you sell the show, right? Yeah. But I don't want nine episodes of it. But when you do an episode that's set in a courtroom, it has to feel like a great courtroom drama. And it did feel like a really good courtroom drama because they tied it into other things. It wasn't just a standard crime of the week. Let's see if they get off.

[00:50:34] As you say, the connections to back to Matt, back to his experience as Daredevil and how he would get himself off if he was the one that was on the stand is almost what we're experiencing here. I thought it was really good. I don't want to see three more episodes of this going on in the season, but I'm glad this was the court case that they decided to spend a full episode on. It was well worthwhile. Really liked Hector as a character. It's really sad what happened at the end of the episode. But that sets up something big for the rest of the season as well.

[00:51:03] So we'll see how that plays out as the rest of the episodes proceed. I also will say I love the end. I love the silence of the end. I thought it was a great choice just to kind of show someone that fought for their life and fought for other people. And the way it ended worked really well for the character. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And I think also for the actor Kamal de los Reyes, who also passed away and lost his life.

[00:51:31] So it's kind of that double edged hit really, I think. So it's got punch to it for sure. Yeah, yeah, definitely. Well, that's it for our chat. I think about episode three. I think we need a drink. I think we need to go to the pub, John. Absolutely. Fellow defenders and fellow quizzers, welcome to Josie's pub quiz for Daredevil Born Again. It is episode three. So we're moving on to question three.

[00:52:02] Grab yourself a drink as I give you this episode's question. What are the names of the beach in Puerto Rico and the frog that lives there, as mentioned by Hector? Hmm, very good. Very good. That's the reason why we weren't saying what was playing over the closing credits. But that was also played over the closing credits. That might help. Yeah, yeah. John, do you want to get the question one more time? Yes.

[00:52:27] What are the names of the beach in Puerto Rico and the frog that lives there, as mentioned by Hector? Fantastic. That's question three of nine. Gather together all the answers to the nine questions and emails at the end of the season to feedback at tvpodcastindustry.com with all of the correct answers. And you could be in with a chance of getting your hands on some Daredevil goodies. Excellent stuff.

[00:52:50] Let us get into our feedback section for this episode, The Hollow of His Hand. First up, we got a message on YouTube from JJ Javon, who said, I found you guys while re-watching The Daredevil and Punisher in preparation for Born Again. Fantastic. Going back through those podcasts were a ton of fun. Glad to see this was uploaded as soon as I finished the episode.

[00:53:18] I need you guys' in-depth discussion now. Fantastic. Fantastic, Jay. Great stuff, JJ. I hope we gave it to you. I hope it hit the mark. Yeah, it's funny. We've had a few people who've been saying that they've listened back to our Daredevil coverage over the last year. It's really nice to get those kind of messages because we recorded such a long time ago. It's seven years since the last Daredevil podcast. Ten years since we started. So it's really fun to hear that.

[00:53:45] But what happens then is a lot of people have listened to, say, three seasons worth of Daredevil coverage and then two seasons of Punisher coverage and then if we went into the Defenders stuff, there's five or six seasons. They listen to it whenever they want to and then suddenly we're back down to one episode and then four or five days go by and the second episode dropped and then another four or five days and we're on to episode three and now it'll be a week for the next one. So it's not at your fingertips anymore. So it's a different thing. But I am so glad you're joining us on the journey, Jay.

[00:54:14] Thanks so much for sending your message over on YouTube. And thanks to everybody who's joined us from previous coverage of Daredevil as well. Come back to us for the Born Again coverage. Yeah, definitely. Speaking of which, we also got a message from Mathematician on our coverage of episode two. Nice name. It's a great name. Great name. Yeah. So Mathur, I guess, is the first name. So Mathur says, came across you guys were watching all the Defenders series this time last year. Brilliant podcasts. Really entertaining.

[00:54:41] But I do feel like Age of Ultron is too late an entry into the MCU to start with. Is there any chance of retrospective phase one and phase two MCU movies? My OCD hates the 90% set completion. I'm kind of with you, actually, to be honest. I do like a full set. Oh, yeah. I think when we did Penny Dreadful, the first three seasons in the Victorian era, and it's just like, I just want to do these.

[00:55:13] Not because anyone's going to listen to them, but because I absolutely adore them. And it'd be great to podcast about them. Yes. And it's kind of like, that's why, unfortunately, we missed out on Andor. And it'd be like, I could do the same again with Andor. And, you know, it'd be too late for any audience, but people would probably pick them up over time. Maybe. It'd be nice and so on. But just because I love that show so much.

[00:55:37] And equally, you know, some of the earlier MCU movies that we just didn't cover, I would love to cover. So I'm kind of with you there, actually, mathematician. So I'm with you, boss. There's so much new stuff that comes out that we podcast about every year. We're on to, what did I say, 900th? So 905th episode at the moment after 10 years of podcasting.

[00:56:05] So we do 100 podcasts every year, and almost none of them are retrospective. Almost all of them are things that are either out in the cinema when we record the podcast or have just come out that week on TV. So going back and finding a space when there's so much new programming coming out, so much new stuff to watch has been really difficult. And well, you know, we loved those movies as well. Age of Ultron was just a good starting point because we happened to be podcasting about Daredevil at the time when Age of Ultron came out.

[00:56:34] So that was the reason why we covered it. We just literally went, oh, we're going to the cinema this week. Forget our whole concept of the show, of the podcast being called TV podcast industries. We're going to the movies. Well, yeah, exactly. That's where it all started. But you never know. You never know. I'm not going to say no. If things slow down and we don't have anything to cover. I think Derek as a collector likes a complete set. I really do. I really do. And we have talked about it before. We did do our Captain America, the Winter Soldier podcast over on our Patreon group.

[00:57:03] So there is one podcast over there of one of the MCU movies that we didn't get to cover. And if Chris has anything to say, his OCD will kick in and it will be like, yes, we will. Certainly given it would need to cover the Iron Man trilogy. Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. And that's Chris's baby. So we might just do it sometime in the future if we ever get the time. But thanks so much, mathematician, for your question. Thanks for following along with us as well. Yeah, absolutely.

[00:57:32] Thanks so much, mathematician, for your message. Really good. Let's catch up on thoughts and feedback on Daredevil board again so far, John. Yes. We also got email feedback on episode one from Meryl Smith, who says, welcome back fellow defenders on this dark and foggy night where we are here to discuss the long awaited return of Daredevil proper.

[00:57:58] It sucks that I didn't know of your podcast when I initially was watching the shows. It would have been nice to converse with someone else who was checking out the shows as well. But I'm here now and really looking forward to the rest of the season. First things first, a great opening to get us back into the show proper before immediately blowing it away and establishing a new status quo.

[00:58:21] Also, last we saw Foggy in Daredevil season three, he was still with Marcy with talks of a long term commitment on the horizon. So it was slightly strange to see him without her. It sucks to see Karen and Matt having another falling out, but I'm sure they'll work things out eventually. I'm hoping she'll be back when Frank shows up because I just love that dynamic.

[00:58:44] And speaking of dynamics that I love, Charlie Cox and Vincent D'Onofrio absolutely kill every scene that they're in. And I love their conversation in the coffee shop. It really gets to the heart of who these individuals are and things that they've both gone through and how these things have shaped them. Also, maybe because Fisk is busy talking with Matt in coffee shops, that's why his marriage is going to crap. This season is going to be something special.

[00:59:12] Five foggy dark nights, bullseye barrages and helpful pushes off a building out of five. Thank you so much, Meryl Smith. And it's really great again to have someone coming on board for our Daredevil born again coverage. Absolutely. Yeah, totally agree with you. The dynamics between these two main characters are just fantastic.

[00:59:38] They were originally and again, yeah, they pick it up. It's almost like shorthand for the two of them. Yeah. And you're right. I think the Karen Punisher dynamic is just so good. And I'm holding out hope that Karen comes back in through that route, to be honest. Whether they will, I don't know. But it's a great call, Meryl. Yeah, absolutely. I think the two of them just work so well together.

[01:00:06] Jan Prenthal and Debra Ann Wall are great on screen. And it was one of those pairings when it happened originally. You just didn't see it working as well as it did in season two of Daredevil. And then stretching into The Punisher season one and two as well. It was cool to see her in there. So you never know. She's over in San Francisco, though. So you never know. She might come back to New York and meet up with Frank later on in the season. It would be kind of cool. Yeah, definitely. Thanks so much, Meryl. Thanks, Meryl. Over to Facebook for some feedback on episode one.

[01:00:36] First up, Dr. Bob Phillips says, Time has unapologetically passed in Hell's Kitchen, and it feels like the world might have turned upside down. They killed Foggy. Karen exiled herself. Vanessa aged gracefully and became a mob boss, not a mob mall. Kingpin has repented and now wears suits and ties of different hue. Matt doesn't even enter a church, let alone speak to a priest. The world of Born Again isn't the one we left, and it feels like it might not go according to plan. How lovely to hear you back in the world of Marvel.

[01:01:06] I think the egg white omelette made by a chef is part of the transformation from self-sufficient to community-minded kingpin. If I remember right, it's a dieter's favorite and fits with him being a thinner, lighter version of our favorite patricidal tyrant. And there you go. So that's what the word egg white omelette was about, John. It was for dieters. It's in him dieting, not having the egg yolks. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, definitely. Still doesn't make me want to have one. No. I do like a soft runny yolk.

[01:01:34] So actually, I know you don't get that on an omelette. No. Probably why I don't. But I like gooey omelettes, you see. You do, yes. Yeah, those ones that cook in about 30 seconds. Yeah, gooey omelettes all the way for me. Oh, good. Oh, good. On episode two, Dr. Bob said, We slip behind the projector personas and I'm left with gnawing uncertainties. What's the hidden superpower of the troubled 20-something Dr. Love interest has an appointment for? Why doesn't Matt carry a body cam much of the time?

[01:02:03] Is the saved subway victim storyline about to get even more morally complicated when we find out what shady details he's been involved in? Is the couple's therapy real or just another veil? Very good, Dr. Bob. Lots of questions there from the second episode. Absolutely. I absolutely love that you call Heather Dr. Love interest. I know, we'll get used to the names as the season goes on as well. But yes, the troubled 20-something from episode two. We didn't see him again.

[01:02:30] But yeah, I do think that character is coming back later on in the season as well. Maybe Dr. Strange Love interest by the end of the season. Maybe. Who knows? And you're right, the veil that is forming around Vanessa and Wilson Fisk. Definitely, I catch that this episode more so than in episode two. But I'm glad it's obviously permeating through these episodes and their relationship.

[01:02:58] And it's a nice little touch, I think. I think it gives them an opportunity to talk to each other about business dealings, the other kind of business dealings. And that's what they seem to use those moments before Heather arrives to start the therapy session. They seem to have that little tete-a-tete about what's going on in the crime world at the moment before she arrives in there. So maybe they're taking that opportunity in a room they know isn't bugged or think isn't bugged. Maybe that's the reason for it. Exactly.

[01:03:24] And the hidden superpower of the troubled 20-something, yeah. I mean, I'm not entirely sure, to be honest. But we'll see. Again, we didn't get anything on this character directly, shall we say, in this episode. We didn't. But we did see something that might be connected to him. Well, that would be spoiling things. And that's why I'm keeping it vague and lofty.

[01:03:54] Yes, we suspect he is a character that we're going to see again. Great stuff. Thanks, Dr. Bob. I know you have your thoughts for episode three coming up as well. Great stuff. Thanks, Dr. Bob. Mark Kirkman says, I thought it was brilliant. My mouth is still on the floor about the first scene in episode one. But I love that Disney Plus has continued with the Netflix style of Daredevil. I'm looking forward to covering it myself on the Panels to Pixels podcast. Looking forward to your thoughts and what the show itself gives us this season.

[01:04:24] It may be a rough one. Everyone, please wear your seatbelt. We are in for a lot of collisions for this show. I think so. Yeah. Thanks so much, Mark, for the feedback. Yeah, I agree totally. The fact that they've kept that mature feel to it, I think is really good. And it certainly sets it apart, I think, on the Marvel TV shows so far. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

[01:04:53] Looking forward to hearing your thoughts on Panels to Pixels, Mark. Definitely. As always, I'll be checking that out and hearing now. Hopefully Steve is over there with you again for this coverage of Daredevil. I know you started around the time, I think, Luke Cage, season one or season two, is when you started your coverage. So it'll be fun to hear you go back to Daredevil as well. Yeah. Thanks, Mark. Yeah, thanks, Mark. Sandy Rosenders says, It's not foggy. I'm pretty sure the Doctor is going to die at some point.

[01:05:22] Feels like the writing is on the wall. Hmm. Yeah. Or in the therapy room. Yeah. Well, maybe. Maybe. And it's an interesting thing. And I don't know whether this shouldn't be a major spoiler, because I don't know. I haven't seen the rest of the season. But it's an interesting change that they've made. In the comic books, because I love this choice, when Wilson Fisk became mayor, he hired Matt as his legal representation and tied him up,

[01:05:48] looking through all of the court documents from the city for decades, basically. Right? That was what he did to Matt. It was his punishment, almost, for him to make him work for him. Matt chose to be there so he could hear everything that was actually going on behind the scenes with Kingpin. So here, choosing to have Heather as the therapist still plays in a little bit to that storyline. Yeah. Having someone on Matt's side, I suppose, connected to the office. But remember, Matt hasn't found out about her yet.

[01:06:18] So it will be interesting. Is he just going to the doctor because he knows she's in a relationship with Matt? Or did he just specifically choose the doctor because she's got a good reputation, doesn't know anything about the relationship with Matt? Well, he didn't choose her at all. He was set up. And that was before she signed her NDA with Book. It was Book that chose, yeah. But I wonder, again, we don't know whether Vanessa sent Book down to get her specifically,

[01:06:46] or did Wilson send him down to get her specifically because she's going out with Matt? Is that another thing? Is he keeping another enemy closer?

[01:07:22] Yeah. And he wonders whether all the episodes are going to be related to shots in some way. Because episode two, you mentioned, John, optics is bar optics. Yeah. You explained that last episode. And this episode is another toast. So will they all be connected to toasts in each of the episodes? Exactly. And whiskey. And whiskey. Yeah. Will the next episode be called Whiskey Watch? Or will it be Chin Chin, Down the Hatch, Bottoms Up? Maybe. Maybe. Great stuff. Qualitations. It's a good theory, Dr. Bob. Absolutely.

[01:07:52] Really good. Yeah. Really good theory. And it's almost another version of Whiskey Watch, isn't it? So I like it. Great stuff. Thanks, Dr. Bob. Moving on to episode three. Harvey Locust says, pardon my language, but F Matt Murdock. He is hands down the most detrimental character on the show. Other than that, it was a stellar episode. I was aghast that the first whiskey pour wasn't even on screen, but felt rewarded with the second.

[01:08:21] And a salute to Foggy on top. I foresee today's events leading to the suit coming back. I just hope we don't have two plus episodes of Matt whining before it does. Good stuff, Harvey. Thank you. I presume that's, again, to whipping the towel away from Hector to reveal his true identity. I'm guessing that's what you mean. I think so. He is.

[01:08:50] He's detrimental to Hector, clearly. And also... If he didn't put on the suit, I don't think he'd be killed. No, I get that. I get that, but I think he didn't ask. And you're right. That first whiskey pour, not even on screen. I can't believe it is that. But it's bourbon. So I guess it's Jack Daniels. Yeah. Or Southern Comfort. Is that the other big bourbon? That's the bourbon liqueur. The real sweet one. Gin Beam. Yeah. Yeah. That's the other biggie.

[01:09:20] Yeah. Or Bullish, is that one? I don't know. And then, yeah, you get into loads of different ones. I mean, there's tons of bourbon, but like... Or does Ryan Reynolds have a bourbon? I'm sure he has a bourbon. He must do. I know he has a gin. That'll be it. It'll be the fourth wall-breaking daredevil will have them drinking his gin in the next episode or next season. Good stuff, Harvey. Well, I don't think we're going to have two episodes of Matt Whining. We only have nine episodes in the season, so we're not going to have him whining much. Yeah.

[01:09:47] And he was fiddling around with his broken horn as well in the courtroom. He was. That's right. So he could be thinking about it. And yeah, he may realize the position that he put Hector in after he finds out about what's happened to him. Do you think he's going to put on the suit that he got in LA? The red and yellow one that was designed by the designer of She-Hulk's costume. Yeah, that would be interesting. I don't know how that would go down in New York. Yeah.

[01:10:16] It's normally kind of a toned-down dark red to blend into the shadows. Like even the black from the original sort of first season on Marvel Netflix. That was great. It was cool. Yeah. I really enjoyed that. I was happy to get to the end of the season and have him in his actual daredevil costume though, I must admit. Great stuff. Thanks for that, Harvey. Yeah, thanks, Harvey. Dr. Bob Phillips has his thoughts on episode three. He says, I was surprised when Hector cleared the court building without being arrested for his white tigering.

[01:10:41] Wide-eyed when he put the damn suit back on again and sadly expecting his death at the hands of a Fiskean cop, I expect. Really enjoyed the double standards being played with or agonized over by our mayor and martyr and I'm predicting we see the devil's back and sat in an empty church at the end of the next 45 minutes. Ooh, by the end of episode four, we'll have Matt back in costume. Yeah. Or both. Or both.

[01:11:09] Yeah, he could be absolutely sat in the confessional in his daredevil outfit or maybe even with a surplus or something like that and a ruff and his kind of churchy outfit. That's his new daredevil costume is dressed as a choir boy. Or maybe he'll be at the organ wearing his, playing his theme tune. Maybe.

[01:11:31] But yeah, I think we'll see him sort of needing to confess, have some redemption with the spiritual world over possibly Hector dying. Again, I can see him going into a bit of a funk with that. Maybe. Maybe. It's an interesting call out that Dr. Bob has here. He calls the potential person that killed Hector a Fiskian cop rather than somebody pretending

[01:12:01] to be the Punisher. That's an interesting crossover. If the cops that believe that what the Punisher does stands for them are also the cops that voted for Fisk. Well, it could be. That would really piss off Frank Castle, wouldn't it? I think so. If he walks back into town and goes, hang on a second, you've made him mayor and you think he represents me and my beliefs. Yeah, I think Frank would go buck wild on the new mayor. Very mental. Yeah, indeed. Thanks for that thought, Dr. Bob. Let's see how that plays out.

[01:12:31] Definitely. Thanks, Dr. Bob. Rory Niall Robinson says, White Tiger has been done over by that episode. I enjoyed the episode in general, but a crying shame we didn't get to see him properly in action. Yeah. Feels very much like we would have known more about him pre-rewrites, like everyone seemed to know about the amulet, but that wasn't explained to the audience. Obviously great to have the Punisher back in town, but still, yes. Or was he the Punisher?

[01:13:00] Probably Fiskian cop, Punisher loving cop. Yeah, there's a whole rake of things. Or just a murderer with a fan t-shirt. Well, yeah. Yeah, could be that. There is a partial explanation that's been given for what happened with Hector in the episode. Kamar de los Reyes was actually quite sick when filming the show itself.

[01:13:29] His death last year, while a surprise to most of the audience who hadn't seen him play the role of Hector, it wasn't a surprise to the people that knew him well. And I think Darius Gardapain this week, the new showrunner for the show, did say they occasionally had to film around what he could actually do on set. They said he gave it his all. He was a brilliant actor, as we can see from the episodes that they've put out. But the action scenes that they were originally intending may have been some of the scenes that

[01:13:55] were cut because they couldn't film around his illness at the time. So very sad that we didn't get to see those action scenes, but also very sad, of course, that we've lost the actor. At least the character is present on screen. At least his performance has been maintained so we can see how good he was in the role. But yeah, it's a shame that White Tiger is not something that we've seen on screen. Perhaps it is something that will continue on. Perhaps somebody else will pick up the amulet.

[01:14:21] I think in one of the scenes where Matt's talking to Hector, Hector says to him it was a calling. So I wonder if the amulet passes on to somebody else now that Hector's dead and they have now got a revenge mission again because of what happened to him. Maybe that's a way they'll solve it in the future. Yeah. Good stuff. Yeah. Thanks so much, Rory, for the feedback. It was really good to get your thoughts there. Because yeah, I mean, White Tiger in it for a short period of time.

[01:14:48] But certainly at least nicely central within this courtroom drama, even if we didn't see much of the White Tiger as a superhero. Yeah. Yeah. So thanks so much. Absolutely. Thanks, Rory. And we also got an email in from Coffee and Vodka who says, greetings fellow well-executed defenders. Hmm. I wasn't a fan of the story when it was in the comics and they stuck to the spirit of it for the show.

[01:15:15] So not a fan of the episode, even with what I hope was a Punisher impersonator. Remember the days when the average episode of Kung Fu, The Incredible Hulk or whatever was a slog until the last couple of minutes when they'd give you the action to draw you into next week. That's what this felt like. I hope I wasn't wrong about their intentions in making a season four of Daredevil rather than anything but that. Considering the long wait for the show's return, they get one mulligan from me and this is it. 1.5.

[01:15:42] You have tedious trials, scared witless witnesses and targeted tigers out of five. Peace and take care. Coffee and vodka. Ooh, coffee and vodka. Not a fan, I see. Which, that's perfectly fine. I guess, given you didn't like the comic story and it stuck similar to that spirit, then it's not that surprising.

[01:16:08] But like you say, let's hope for the best around some of these things like the Punisher impersonator and maybe this is the mulligan and next week will be, I guess, not the courtroom drama. Yeah, maybe. We've got a lot left to go. We've only three episodes in of the nine episode season. So I knew there was going to be a courtroom episode. And one of the things actually I didn't even mention earlier on, one of the things I really loved about the episode was even just the scene of getting the witness to the courtroom.

[01:16:37] I thought that was really exciting to watch because I was full sure Cherry did have him in the back of the car and I thought there was going to be some kind of takedown. And then when it was revealed he was in the taxi, I thought that was actually really well filmed. I really enjoyed it. And bringing in more of the city as well, which I love in the show. It's not just based in Hell's Kitchen anymore. It's more New York based now than it has been in the past, which is cool to watch. Yeah, definitely. But good stuff there, Coffee and Vodka. As always, great to get your thoughts and comments on the episodes.

[01:17:07] We also got an email from Victor Von Doom who says, Yes, we did. The only thing missing was a 12 Angry Men jury room scene.

[01:17:32] I found it very entertaining and interesting to experience the good versus bad question from various angles. I was really hoping Powell would get his ass whipped again, but I'm sure that will come later. Did the other cops survive? When his head hit the table last episode, I thought he was done for. Daniel was sucking up as usual. He should check the status of the fellow he wants to replace.

[01:17:57] I like the way Fisk would slide back into his old violent ways, as has Matt in episode 2. RIP White Tiger. Let's get ready to rumble. Excelsior Victor Cherry Von Doom. Great stuff, Victor, as always. You're totally right. Who shot JR moment? Was it the Punisher? Was it a Fiskeian cop? As Dr. Bob has mentioned.

[01:18:24] Or just a Punisher following and adulating cop? Or someone that hates the Punisher and wants him to go to court for murdering somebody. They got it. Yes, indeed. So, yeah, really good to get that. And yes, as I said in the podcast, I think Powell might get his ass whipped by a certain Punisher. Yeah. For sure. Yeah, he did get beaten pretty hard there and the guy went free.

[01:18:53] But you never know, Matt might be trying to get information out of him next week because of the death of Hector. That might be what episode 4 is about. And a bit like yourself as well, not only that other cop, but I did think Powell potentially was a goner. I thought both of them were dead. At the end of the last episode, I thought, how was Matt going to explain this away? He's just killed two cops. They were going around to intimidate the witness. So he was right in what he did. He'd probably get away pretty scot-free from it.

[01:19:21] But did he kill the other cop? I don't think so. That wasn't mentioned. So if it's not mentioned on screen, then probably doesn't happen. Yeah, it probably doesn't happen. Great stuff. Thanks so much, Victor, for your email. Oh, he did ask a question at the end. He said, does anyone think Adam will survive this series? My guess is he's already dead. So that's Adam, the person that Vanessa had the relationship with while Fisk has disappeared.

[01:19:46] I do wonder if those marks on Fisk's knuckles are that he went and beat up Adam at the end of the series. We will find the headless body of Adam somewhere in the Hudson River. For sure. But I was convinced that Adam was one of those gang members that I think we saw again today in this episode with Book. Oh, it might have been. Yeah. So at least he didn't look beaten up. I don't know, though. Yes. I don't know.

[01:20:15] But it was just his reaction to Fisk coming in the room in the first episode when Fisk came to speak with Vanessa. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, that could be interesting. So we have to just check that. We'll probably have to check the credits and see if there's an Adam mentioned in the credits and see who that is. But I think he might be already dead as well, Victor. Yeah. Excellent stuff. Thanks so much to everybody for your feedback for this episode. It's great to hear from you all.

[01:20:42] Please keep sending us an email to feedback at tvpodcastindustries.com or pop on over to our Facebook group at facebook.com slash groups slash TV podcast industries, where there is a spoiler post up for each episode of Dare Little Born Again and for every other show that we're covering as well. So you want to you can pop in your thoughts there as well. Yes.

[01:21:01] If you're a returning listener or if you're new to the podcast as well, please subscribe to the podcast and of course share it because sharing the podcast is, of course, sharing the love. Yes, it is. Indeed. We'll be back next week with our chat all about Daredevil Born Again episode four. We're also going to begin at some point our podcasts on the third season of The Wheel of Time.

[01:21:31] But Derek and Chris are, of course, finishing off the podcasts on Invincible season three. Yes, the final episode of Invincible season three. A big one. Seeing Jeffrey Dean Morgan and Steven Yeun up against each other. Negan versus Glenn from The Walking Dead up against each other in the finale. I wonder if there will be a nod or a squashed eyeball, a tip of the hat. Well, yes. Compared to that. Yeah, there may have been. Go watch the episode.

[01:22:02] Go check the podcast out. It should be in your feed already for our finale coverage for Invincible season three. And we'll be back with Invincible next time. And that does free up Chris. So hopefully he'll be joining us for an episode of Daredevil in the future. We will be covering The Wheel of Time. John mentioned it there. There's three episodes of that show have been released and they are very dense. As always with The Wheel of Time, three full episodes, three full hours to watch, put our thoughts together for and release a podcast on.

[01:22:29] So you can expect that over the next couple of days, hopefully, maybe into next week. And then we'll start moving into our weekly coverage of Wheel of Time, which we are looking forward to covering. And you're looking forward to getting back to the wheel, John. The wheel weaves as the wheel wills. Excellent. Excellent. Thanks so much for joining us. We'll talk to you again next time. Yes. Thanks so much, fellow defenders, for joining us. Remember, keep those quiz answers safe. Until next time there, of course. Keep watching. Keep listening.

[01:22:58] And, of course, keep defending. Keep the quiz answers safe. Yeah. Okay. Keep them inner safe until the end of the season. Then email us after episode nine. Just safe from prying eyes. Keep them secret. Stop people from copying. Keep them safe. Bye.