Daredevil Born Again Episode 2 Review

[00:00:00] This is the Defenders Podcast on TV Podcast Industries, and we're talking about Daredevil Born Again, Episode 2, Optics. Matt, you take on this case, it's going to look like you're siding against the whole NYPD. Kirsten, what did I tell you to get you to come over from the DA's office? You said that I was brilliant, which is true. That is true. What else? You said we take on the hard cases. And impossible odds work is what we do here. Okay.

[00:00:30] Thank you. I just need Arnie to take over for me in the Rogers Depot. Great, I appreciate it. Talk to Hector's wife, and I need you to find the witness that Hector saved on the platform. I believe him, Cherry. Okay. So you want me to find a guy on the platform? Yes. How much do you want me to push? As much as you have to. And do some digging on Hector for me.

[00:01:01] There's something about his story that doesn't track. Wait, he's innocent or his story doesn't track? Both.

[00:01:26] Welcome back, fellow Defenders, to this episode of Defenders on TV Podcast Industries, where we are talking all about episode two of Daredevil Born Again, entitled Optics. I'm not the bar variety, I don't think. I don't think so. I am one of your daredeviling hosts, John. Welcome back, fellow Defenders. I'm one of your other hosts, Derek.

[00:01:52] Derek, just two of us this time, although if you're listening really closely, you may be able to hear our kitty-at-law, I guess, or our podcast. Our podcast. Charlie, who's in the background at the moment, cried away. Yes, and we still haven't resurrected our foggy Nelson, Chris, yet. No, Chris doesn't look back for this one. Not able to make it for this one. He is busy, busy, busy, or so he says.

[00:02:20] He is. He's still got two more episodes of Invincible to go before he's allowed to join us for something else. And he might even be joining us for Wheel of Time before he joins us for Daredevil. But he is watching, he is enjoying as well. So we will have him back at some point in the future. But what we do have is some feedback from our wonderful fellow Defenders, which we'll get to later on in the podcast. Yes, indeed.

[00:02:42] This nostalgic Defenders podcast on TV Podcast Industries, where we are 10 years since we covered the Marvel Netflix Daredevil series. And the first one of Marvel breaking out of the cinematic theatre and into the home theatre. So yes, it's very nostalgic for us returning to Daredevil. Really excited about it.

[00:03:09] So if you are new to our podcast, or if you are a long-time Defender, but your memory is beginning to fail, remember to head on over to our website, ValiDefenders, at tvpodcastindustries.com, where you can subscribe to the podcast on any good or evil podcast catcher of your choice.

[00:03:32] And of course, we love to get your thoughts, theories, observations and comments about each and every episode of Daredevil Born Again. So please send your messages to feedback at tvpodcastindustries.com, or you can leave your comments over on the spoiler posts of our Facebook group at facebook.com forward slash groups, forward slash tvpodcastindustries. Excellent stuff.

[00:03:58] You can also use that email address, feedback at tvpodcastindustries.com, to join us for our Josie's Bar pub quiz. The first question was given out on last week's episode, or last episode, and there'll be another question coming up later on in this podcast. And at the end of the season, all you need to do is email us with all the correct answers to that address, feedback at tvpodcastindustries.com. Exactly. So fellow defenders and fellow quizzers, or indeed fellow quizzy defenders,

[00:04:24] make sure to get your answers compiled ready for the final episode, so that you can submit on receiving the last question. But we will get to question two of our Josie's pub quiz later. But let us get into our spoiler-filled discussion of episode two of Daredevil Born Again. Optics. Derek, who gave us what, where, when, how, and why, and entitled what?

[00:04:54] Well, firstly, I do want to mention that the episode titles are now available as the show is out on Disney+. At the moment, the first episode was titled Heaven's Half Hour, which was the episode where, of course, Foggy Nelson was killed. I think it's called Heaven's Half Hour because, finally, Daredevil was having a moment of happiness at the beginning of the episode, but it didn't last very long. Any other thoughts on that, John? Yeah. I mean, it was. It was about them having a good half an hour. Yeah. And then it being ripped from them. Like a happy hour, I guess.

[00:05:23] As we said before, the avocado was squished into guap. It was. This episode title is called Optics. We'll talk about the reason for that later. But it seems to really be about Wilson Fisk's idea and finding the new optics he has to present to the world as Mayor Kingpin, I guess, or Mayor Fisk. Well, absolutely. Yeah. So we'll talk about that as we get through the episode. The showrunners for the show are Darius Gardapain and Justin Benson. Aaron Moorhead, who took over from Matt Corman and Chris Ord.

[00:05:50] The reason I mention that is because this episode, the writing credit goes to Matt Corman and Chris Ord. They worked together on a number of procedural shows, including The Enemy Within, The Brave, Covert Affairs, and more. But they did lose their roles when the show was retooled from this more courtroom drama setting, which was the original idea that each episode you would have, kind of like She-Hulk, you'd have a courtroom drama taking place and Matt Murdock would be front and center in the court and then go out at night as Daredevil.

[00:06:19] You know, that's kind of the central basic idea, but it was retooled. And Justin Benson, Aaron Moorhead, and Darius Gardapain came on board, as we saw in that first episode, set it all up to connect much more closely to the original Netflix series and keep within that vein is the understanding. And again, we probably will never know exactly how it was supposed to play out unless they released the original scripts that Matt Corbin and Chris Ord did for the episodes, but they were the original showrunners. Yes. And the director for this episode was Michael Cuesta.

[00:06:47] He was a regular director on Six Feet Under and went on to direct the first episode of Dexter with Michael C. Hall as well, who was in Six Feet Under, of course. He's well known as the director of massive pilots for big TV shows, as he also directed Homeland with Claire Danes, which went on to be an absolutely huge show for about nine seasons, I think it was, in the end, when it eventually finished up. But I remember coming out and just being absolutely huge from that first episode. Oh, absolutely, yeah.

[00:07:11] So he has a style about him behind the camera that it delivers big for big shows. Yeah, absolutely. So, John, do you want to tell us what they gave us with your synopsis for Daredevil Born Again Season 1 Episode 2, Optics? Sure. The new mayor of New York, Wilson Fisk, makes a commitment to rid the city of costume vigilantes and hand it back to the NYPD. But the police commissioner isn't returning his calls.

[00:07:40] Following a meeting with B.B. Uruk, he learns that Commissioner Gallo and most of the NYPD are looking to strike against him. But Mayor Fisk finds just the right buttons to push to keep the city official in check. Meanwhile, in a subway station, a stranger, Hector Aiella, tries to help a fellow New Yorker from being beaten up. But when one of the attackers falls in front of a train, the other reveals he's an undercover police officer and arrests Hector.

[00:08:08] When Matt Murdock is in the police station, he overhears Hector being beaten and decides to intervene and take on his case. But he knows there's something he's hiding. With the help of his investigator, Cherry, Matt learns that Hector is usually the master's and powered vigilante, White Tiger. He fights to have this fact hidden from the trial, arguing that Hector's case will be over before it's begun. That evening, Matt finds his way to the subway victim, Nikki Torres, after following the

[00:08:37] surviving cop from the subway station. Just in time, he sends Nikki from his apartment for his protection and takes out the police officers who had seemingly come to kill Nikki Torres. Elsewhere, after learning the public responded well to his wife, Vanessa, Wilson Fisk engages the services of Dr. Heather Glenn to resolve their marriage problems. Vanessa feels like she has no choice, but Fisk doesn't want to lose his wife.

[00:09:04] Yeah, very opposing sides coming in there to the marriage guidance counseling, I guess. Yeah, I don't really have a choice whether I want to be here or not. I just have to be. And Fisk doesn't want to lose his wife. So yeah, I think Vanessa's going along because she's being told to go along there. Yeah, I think so. Yeah. And one thing I noticed in my edit for the first episode is that unfortunately, our gavel doesn't seem to play out on the podcast. It might be too low. So I'll have to work out how to fix it.

[00:09:33] But just for anybody who isn't hearing the gavel, it's what introduces each of our case notes for the episode. So as we go into case note number one, you should be hearing a gavel. That should sound like a gavel. Yes, but only if you have dog hearing, it would seem. Apparently, apparently. So my apologies if you're just hearing a gap there. Just fill it in for yourself. John, what's our first case note? Where do we start? Yes, our case note number one, gavel gavel.

[00:10:03] Is the subway attack. Yes, yeah. I feel like a turkey now. Instead of gobble, gobble. Gabble, gabble. It is. Yes, it is. Our case note number one is the subway attack here where we have Hector Ayala coming down the stairs with flowers in hand for his wife and just seeing a regular or seemingly regular New Yorker being mugged and beaten up at the deserted railway station.

[00:10:33] I love the fact, and I know it's going to be really late at night. It's probably the last train home, you know, and all that kind of stuff. But in a city so populated like New York, you have these subway stations that are effectively deserted. It could be one of the end-of-the-line stations or whatever. But we have that situation here. We have never experienced that in the time we've been to New York. I've never seen an empty subway station.

[00:11:00] I've seen loads in the UK, even though London is really busy. I've seen loads of empty stations. But not the central one. But you have walked into a station that's been empty. You just don't see it in New York, it seems. The city who never sleeps except for one station. But nonetheless, I am nitpicking there. We have Hector Ayala becoming a seemingly regular hero by intervening to try and protect the person

[00:11:30] being beaten up here, who is a guy that he doesn't know the name of, but is Nicky Torres. So we see the fight, we see the dust up here. And one of the muggers trips, slips, and falls into an oncoming train. At which point we have the other mugger pull out a gun and a police badge and arrest Hector Ayala

[00:11:59] for the death or murder of his partner. Yes, yes. Really interesting setup at the start of this episode. So a couple of things that, you know, as the episode plays out that you kind of piece back together for this. Firstly, this isn't just some standard stranger on the street. Hector Ayala does have a secret history, which we find out later on in the episode, that he is a vigilante. So in comic books, this will be a real standard thing.

[00:12:25] You know, you'd have the superhero unmasked, coming across a crime, beating up the bad guy at the crime scene, pretending that he's just a standard member of the public. In this new world, in the Marvel Cinematic Universe, vigilantes aren't supposed to be out there because they're supposed to be covered under the Sokovia Accords, which have been broken in the MCU now.

[00:12:49] So is a person like Hector Ayala, who could be a powered vigilante, is he allowed to go out and stop a crime that he sees? And then you've got the other complex element here that a lot of people are told about. Don't break up a fight because you may not know what's going on behind the actual fight that you're seeing. Somebody throwing a punch isn't necessarily as simple as that. In this case, we have Nikki Torres getting beaten up by two undercover police officers. And if you get involved in that, hang on a second, you could be behind bars for many, many lifetimes.

[00:13:18] Yeah, absolutely. I mean, Hector here is literally trying to break up the fight. Equally, they don't allow him to do that. And of course, don't flash their bat. As you say, you feel as though if undercover cops were sort of engaging in that level of physical interaction with a target,

[00:13:44] then they're going to have to show Hector their badge if he goes to intervene. But maybe not as well. It depends on the situation, as you say. So ultimately, this is where Hector gets caught between a rock and a hard place. He's trying to be the regular hero by trying to break up the fight. It's also, as you say, complicated by the fact that they are undercover cops.

[00:14:10] It's also within a recent context that we have Mayor Fisk, who has just been elected. And, you know, in his New Year's speech right at the start, he says and calls out, we don't need a man with a skull on his chest or a spider outfit, you know. Or devil horns, of course. Or devil horns, of course.

[00:14:33] So, you know, so Hector is suddenly arrested and, you know, and brought into the police station, not only with false information being given by the surviving undercover cop that he killed his partner. After finding out that he was a police officer is what he says. That it was an unprovoked attack and that there was no person being beaten up by them.

[00:15:00] And that he then finds himself in prison with a system that may be orientating very quickly to being anti-vigilante, which is his other secret here. Exactly, exactly. And throughout the episode, as it goes on, you see how difficult life is for Hector Ayala from that moment. You hear him being beaten the first time Matt finds out that he's in the police station. You hear him being beaten by the cops as a cop killer.

[00:15:25] After that, when he's in prison in Rikers Island, you hear him asking Matt to get him out of there or do something for him because not only are the inmates going after him, also the prison guards are going after him. So he's got no protection at all when he's behind bars in there. So yeah, life is not good for Hector from this point on. No, not at all. Not at all. Yeah. What a great opening for the episode. We do want to say, of course, RIP to Kamara de los Reyes, who played this character, Hector Ayala.

[00:15:54] Unfortunately, he passed away at the end of last year from complications due to cancer at the end of, I think, December of 2024. So he didn't get the opportunity to see his performance on screen as the show has taken, I suppose, quite a long time to get to the screen. But he does such a great job here. And we will see him again, I believe, in the next episode, of course, as he's still a central character here. So great to have him here as this character of Hector Ayala and White Tiger, as we'll talk about later on. Absolutely.

[00:16:22] But on to our case note number two. Fisk versus the NYPD. Yeah, it's interesting, isn't it? The two major stories in the episode here are about, you know, Matt versus the NYPD and Hector versus the NYPD. And then Fisk, of course, versus the NYPD. The first people that Fisk has to get in check if he's going to be the mayor of this new city or the new mayor of this city, the other way around.

[00:16:51] The first people he has to get in check are the crime fighters, the people that know that he's the kingpin, the people that investigated him for decades for what he's done or a decade for what he's done. Yeah, I mean, it's interesting, isn't it? These first two episodes really have this kind of mirroring effect of Matt Murdock and Wilson Fisk and the mirroring of them not being their alter egos effectively

[00:17:16] and adjusting to that world, certainly for Wilson Fisk, but equally, I guess, continuing for Matt Murdock, even though it's a year down the line. But yeah, no, I mean, this is really good. I love this element of, you know, the really powerful public servant, the commissioner, you know, the elected official that isn't the mayor,

[00:17:46] is not the local politician, but has the legitimacy of being elected as well, such as they are in the U.S. So they have their own mandate and can cause trouble for the other elected officials of the city in that local hierarchy of politics. Yeah. So I really, really enjoyed this.

[00:18:14] I love that, you know, kind of that old school Commissioner Gallo, you know, you can sense he's, you know, come up through the ranks, not only because of his own talent, but also because of the connections and networking that he has made to get there, whether it's with superior officers, maybe sort of being on the union, you know, sort of committees in the past

[00:18:42] or other elements that have helped him rise here. You know, it really feels almost a bit like Gotham in a sense. Absolutely. Just from the sense that he, Commissioner Gallo is, I really like this and I like the fact that, you know, he is the one refusing Wilson Fisk's phone calls. I think you have, you know, his campaign manager saying, we've tried six times. But even with the fire chief as well,

[00:19:11] that in the end, Wilson Fisk is having to go to the headquarters of the New York City Fire Department and be on the fire chief's turf rather than him coming to the mayor's office. Yeah. In order to kind of smooth things over and so on. But I really enjoyed this kind of, you know, almost who will blink first approach.

[00:19:37] And actually, I think the interesting thing here was the involvement of B.B. Uric, really, in terms of giving Fisk certain intel as to, you know, the word on the street as to what was going to happen and what was going to be enacted by Commissioner Gallo in that he is going to resign. And with that,

[00:20:05] his loyal officers and police men and women were going to also leave the force. Yeah. It's kind of coming back to the first episode of all these, all the people that were leaving the force anyway, that being highlighted. So again, another round of people leaving the police force. Yeah. That knowledge and maybe, you know,

[00:20:35] good police officers rather than corrupt police officers. Oh, well, absolutely. But this is much more, we hear it later on from Commissioner Gallo. This is much bigger than, you know, 15% of retiring cops retiring a little bit earlier and the force getting slightly smaller. This is a bunch of cops going, we will not accept Fisk as mayor. We're going to pull out of here and it will cripple the cops. It will cripple their ability to do the job that needs to be done in a city as big as New York because so many of them know who Fisk is.

[00:21:06] Oh, the confrontation, I think, I get that the funeral is one of my favorite moments in this episode. Because again, you see Wilson Fisk making a decision here that is about the optics. He's going to the funeral, but not arriving until the funeral is completed because he feels that would make a scene and he doesn't want to take away from the dead police officer. That's what he says, at least. Then the commissioner looks at him and goes, I know exactly who you are. You're a child. You're a monster trying to rewrite your legacy. See you around Kingpin as he walks away.

[00:21:36] You know, it's just a great moment. He's just, he knows he holds all the cards here with Wilson Fisk and he's taking a little bit of pleasure in it. He has a lot of pride in the fact that he's able to do this, that a criminal from the criminal underworld isn't going to be allowed to take over his city, not on his watch. And then he goes later on to deliver this final message to Wilson Fisk, to deliver his letter of resignation along with hundreds of other police officers.

[00:22:04] Yeah, well, I love that, you know, Gallo immediately says to Fisk at the cemetery, you know, my mission is to bring you down. But I also... What does he say? There was a mayor of New York you may not even remember the name of. He lasted 30 days. My mission is to make sure your term is even shorter. But what I also, I liked that as well, that he knows who Wilson Fisk is. He can see right through him. But also, there's that great moment where he says,

[00:22:32] do you even feel guilt or remorse? And Kingpin can't answer. Yes. Like, his emotional range is like that of a sort of boiled sprout. Do you know what I mean? Like, he's got no... Like, I know there's words. ...empathetic or emotional range. Because he doesn't feel that. And he's not able to answer Gallo. And I just thought that was really well played by Vincent D'Onofrio. Absolutely. And just that...

[00:23:00] How he portrays Fisk in that awkward moment. Yeah, exactly. He's really good. He really encapsulates that awkward, whiny kid that actually Gallo is referencing here. But as an adult, that he's still that. He is still sort of slightly inward-looking, non-empathetic, and has limited emotional range. You know? And just as if to underline that,

[00:23:30] one of the things that happens in these scenes, when Zabrino Grafair, her character, his manager, his campaign manager, when she's talking to him in his office, Fisk gets distracted like a child would by the fact that the desk in front of him is a very old desk, and starts talking about the only person my father ever respected was LaGuardia, former mayor of New York, who built this city around him. He was the person that built this city.

[00:23:57] And we know from the previous seasons of Daredevil, and I doubt they'll go over it again, but we know there is this very specific connection between Wilson Fisk and his father, Fisk having killed his father as his first murder. But also, he was always trying to get the respect of his father. So interestingly, just before he's called a child, he is acting like a child, connecting himself back to his father through this desk in his office, and ignoring the advice of the person telling him to watch out for the optics of everything that's going on.

[00:24:26] And that's really interesting. It is really good. And again, it's like you suddenly realize, you know, it's very difficult for Wilson Fisk to maintain those optics, in particular in private. So yes, he's able to be disciplined in public, but in the office, in the privacy of the mayor's office, the threat that he makes to the man, the commissioner from Philadelphia,

[00:24:53] through the medium of a Philly cheesesteak. It was just really, it was really, really chilling. You know, as you say, Gallo arrives to hand in his resignation and is immediately threatened by Fisk in the presence of his sort of right-hand man book, you know, to expose effectively a love child that he's had to his wife.

[00:25:18] And I love that as he shows the picture of his child, he's like, so shall we negotiate? You know, you will get no pay rise, no overtime minimums, and no expanded cadet class. And Gallo ultimately is forced into retracting his resignation and accepting all of that, but it ultimately is be careful what you wish for. So that will be interesting.

[00:25:47] And I do hope that these two play out. I suspect it might involve Gallo's death, but I hope there's a bit more of this sparring because I just really enjoyed it, actually. Yeah, I thought it was really good, but again, this is a person that's standing up to Wilson Fisk, and I think the whole point here is not many people do that, and he's finding another way to get them back into touch. If he's not going to use those methods of smashing their head in the card

[00:26:15] or crushing their head for disrespecting his child in Maya, he's going to find a way to get them back into touch. And I think what he says about Gallo after that is, you can get a man to do what you want them to do just with one piece of paper, and then said that Philly cheese steak is absolutely disgusting as well. But I don't think there's going to be another sparring with the commissioner. I think he now has the commissioner and the NYPD under heel.

[00:26:45] I'd say they're going to cheer when Daredevil takes down Kingpin at the end of the series, but the NYPD, I think, are now in his control because he's found a way through with the commissioner. But I think it's about be careful what you wish for, that element. And I think that plays out in a number of ways because you have the notion that actually the New York Police Department has almost split 50-50. 50% who are loyal to Gallo and will do this resignation thing

[00:27:13] and actually can't stand Fisk because of what they know about his previous life and those that are all for him. But if those that are all for him are not going to get any pay rises or overtime minimum, then again, I think Gallo is there going, well, be careful what you wish for by saying no to these demands. Maybe, but remember the other platform that Wilson Fisk is riding on

[00:27:41] is the police officers of New York, the NYPD, are going to be in control of the city again. The vigilantes are going to be gone. And we heard that there were lots of police officers leaving the force because of the vigilantes. So he's doing other things. And we might also see how that might play in real life as well, not just in the Daredevil shows. So let's see. But I think you're absolutely right. This is just one of the most interesting battles that we've seen behind the scenes where Fisk is using different powers, I suppose, that he's had in the past.

[00:28:11] It's a little bit reversing to type in the privacy of his own office, because in a sense, yes, you could argue it's just good old political scandal. But the other word for that is blackmail. He's blackmailing him. Yep. Absolutely. Which is technically illegal. It's true. You know? And that is something he would have done in his past life. And I think the interesting thing is that Buck is there. Yeah. I think we're seeing even more of Buck being the right-hand man there as well.

[00:28:39] But it's also reminding me of House of Cards. You know, that's the political game that was played throughout that. So I think they're taking a little bit of inspiration for this version of Fisk. I think it's the fine line of political scandal or blackmail. Exactly. You know, political scandal or blackmail. It all depends on who's in power. Or investigative journalism, you know, reporting. You know, if you step out of line, this gets fed to the press. Exactly. You know, that kind of thing. Exactly.

[00:29:07] But ultimately, it's a different form of blackmail. Yes. Over him, really. But I think with that, on to our case note number three. Matt takes the case of Hector Ayala. Yes, he does. As I mentioned earlier on, this seemed to be the idea they were going for with Daredevil. It wouldn't be in the same vein as She-Hulk, in the same comedic vein, let's say,

[00:29:34] because a lot of the stuff has still survived from the original filming of the show. But it would be Matt taking on much more high-profile cases. And the cases would form much more of the bulk of episodes than they had in the Netflix series. So while I think Netflix season two had the massive arc of The Punisher in court, whereas here we're seeing a two-episode arc, a three-episode arc,

[00:30:00] which will be about this character of White Tiger and Matt taking on the case for him. I loved how it opened, and we already mentioned it a little bit, but I loved how it opened with Matt overhearing him being beaten and investigating him and finding Hector as the client in the police station. And then Hector kind of giving him a quick rundown of what's going on. Matt using his lie-detecting ability as to whether Hector's on the right side or the wrong side of this.

[00:30:28] And then realizing, yes, he's on the right side of it, but there's something else underneath this guy is trying to protect. I love that. Trying to protect, I guess. Yeah, no, that I really, really enjoyed. I've always enjoyed this about the Daredevil. You know, he asks him the question, did he do it? And he says, no. The guy slipped and fell into the oncoming train, and there was another person there on the platform. And his heart is metronome, and that is Daredevil's lie detector.

[00:30:57] Does the heart begin to race? And when he asks, is there anything else that I need to be aware of, that's when it elevates as though, yes, there's something else here. And that's because he knows he's the white tiger. And I really, really enjoyed that. I love the fact that Matt takes on the case, and in taking on the case, he's reiterating to Kristen McDuffie that, you know, when he coaxed her away from the DA's office,

[00:31:27] it was the set-up of practice where it was impossible odds work. And, you know, this is what we do here in the practice of Murdoch and McDuffie. So I like that he sees the challenge in Hector's case because he is being portrayed as the cop killer. This is, you know, really a bad situation for Matt. I like that thing that Matt, sorry, Cherry says

[00:31:56] when he goes in to collect his suit from his wife. He says, you know, there is a huge machine now going against your husband. Yeah. And it's unstoppable. If someone goes, another person comes in behind that. It is just relentless and huge. Yeah. And these are the two best people that can represent him to give him a chance. Exactly.

[00:32:23] You know, and equally it's that because you also, as his wife, need to attend court to show that side of his life. And this is, again, is where you see, you know, there has been issues at home as well with his wife because of his other vigilante life. Exactly. And it's just really good how that plays out, you know? Yeah.

[00:32:50] And it's such a great, I think, such a great work in the writing of the episode because if you think back to what happened with that opening scene in the subway, Hector was running in carrying some flowers, clearly for his wife to apologize for maybe those nights when he hasn't been home because he's been out all night as a vigilante and he falls into another trap and ends off in a fight that could have him in prison for the rest of his life, you know? Yeah. So she's right to have this concern

[00:33:20] about how much he's going out and giving his life to the night, I guess. We saw that play out through three seasons of Daredevil and a lot of the other Marvel TV shows, particularly where someone superheroing too often is ruining their relationship with their family. So that's really interesting. What I also like is the other little touches here in the episode where we're shown how the odds are so clearly stacked against Hector. He may not even survive his time in prison, let alone or in holding,

[00:33:50] let alone his time in court. You know, I mentioned that earlier on, he's being beaten left, right and center in every direction. But when Matt arrives to sit down in court just for the arraignment, he instantly smells the smell of Dracar Noir, the smell of the NYPD and every single member that's not on duty that day has turned up in their NYPD uniforms to support their dead colleague, you know? And instantly he overhears the partner of the dead cop going,

[00:34:19] oh, that's the guy that killed my partner. He's shouting out in court. So everybody's pointing the finger at this guy. Everybody knows who this guy is the minute he's in there. And the DA has taken the case as well. This isn't just, you know, a member of the DA's office coming in for this incident that happened in the subway. The actual DA is down there. Yeah, DA Hochberg. DA Hochberg, yes. Yeah, and the judge seems to instantly be going, well, this guy is guilty because without any form of protest

[00:34:49] being lodged by Murdoch, bail is instantly denied. Do you know what this guy did? He killed a cop, is basically what the judge is saying. He can't possibly go out and bail because he could kill other cops. And that's not really how it's supposed to work and Matt tries his best, but that doesn't happen at all. So he doesn't get the ability to go out on bail for his client at all. So the odds are very severely stacked against him. And then added to it all, Cherry finds the white tiger costume under his bed.

[00:35:18] And the amulet. And the amulet, yes. I was going to say that. That's a really interesting way to introduce the character of White Tiger, a character who's powered by an amulet. There's been a couple of different white tigers over the years in Marvel Comics, but this is the first time we're seeing this character. It's a really interesting way it's done here. I don't know how you found it, John. I thought it worked quite well because we've seen vigilantes, but there's a moment where Hector mentions that the amulet gives him strength that seems to just come out of nowhere. It's like magic suddenly in the middle

[00:35:47] of this very procedural law type episode. Yeah, but he's kind of basically saying, I wasn't wearing the amulet, so I didn't have my super strength. Yeah. It's like, I guess it's a bit like the power of Grayskull, that with the sword you can turn into He-Man. I guess it's that, yes, imbued sort of power within the amulet, mystical, spiritual, or otherwise. Exactly.

[00:36:15] And that's what gives him, then, I guess, superhero strength, or better, above average compared for humans. Yeah, exactly. And whoever shall wear the amulet gets the strength. It's like, you know, so we're with the hammer, I guess. Exactly. So, I mean, I kind of like this little complication around the white tiger because, you know,

[00:36:45] it makes Mass is correct. he was both truthful and honest around what happened on the platform and the subway station, but there was something that he wasn't telling them. And it's because it's a point of awkwardness and conflict with his wife, and as you say, as has played out in the Marvel Netflix shows, as we saw even with Karen in the first episode about, well,

[00:37:14] are you going to become Daredevil again? Exactly. Or not. And, you know, that always played with, um, Foggy and Karen with their best friend, you know, about the danger he was putting, uh, himself in. Yeah. And so, yeah, this was really, really good. I love that Cherry finds the, the suit. Uh, he's the one. I really, I'm glad this, you know, Cherry is kind of, um, is there, you know? Yeah, absolutely.

[00:37:45] Uh, that he's not just kind of being dropped, like he's, uh, a moment here, you know, like even where he's challenging, Matt, you know, about, well, are you taking this case because it's too close to home? Um, you know, it, it reminds you of yourself. Yes. Daredevil. Yes. And that again, you know, he's kind of like we saw in the first episode, that little sort of, um, conscience voice on the shoulder of Matt. Well, very much so.

[00:38:13] And he's basically saying to Matt, I've liked who you are this last year, this year that you haven't put on the daredevil outfit. Don't put it back on again. And don't feel like you have to defend other people that are putting on the outfit all the time. You know, like it's as if cherry, as you say, as the Jiminy cricket here, it's like, it's like cherry's going, hang on a second, Matt, let me just, let me just read you and make sure that you're not doing this for your own personal reasons. You're doing all this for the right reasons, taking on this case, which is almost unwinnable,, um, given, given everything

[00:38:43] that's surrounding it. Um, do you think that's the right thing to do? Or you're only doing it because what if it had been you that was out that night and saved somebody, which is quite interesting given that later on we have, um, we have Matt fighting without his, uh, his superhero costume. Yeah, absolutely. Uh, but also ultimately Matt confronts, um, Hector with this, whilst he's in prison saying, you know, when were you going to tell me? And then he, he comes clean and says, you know, that he is, you know,

[00:39:10] but this then necessitates the need that this needs to be suppressed. Cause he's saying, if we found it, then that means that the DA's office can find it as well. And what a great line from Matt Murdock. If I'm going to win this case, I need to know all the ways I can possibly lose it. Exactly. So good. So good. Love that. So really, yeah. Nice line. Nice line. Yeah. Um, onto our case note number four, I think. Managing the optics.

[00:39:40] Um, yes, that's not being a barman. It is being, um, what's the optics in a bar, John? You're much more of a bar aficionado than I am. What are optics in a bar? It's where it's, it's the thing that measures out the exact amount of thing that you push up on the bottle. So it's the, it's the, it's the bottles in an old fashioned pub. Um, it, it, it measures out the shot, the shot. Interesting. I never, the legal amount of volume for one drink. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:40:10] I've always heard about managing the optics as in managing the perception of everybody around you as managing the, whereas I'm just thinking about the drink. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Um, but yes, this is all about managing the optics. Now we did, we did, of course, mention a bit of this earlier on. Um, but, but there's other elements that where, where Wilson's managing, which is of course the name of the episodes. Absolutely. And I absolutely love in all of this, um, his campaign manager, Sheila,

[00:40:39] now he's in office again, still giving him advice. And it's kind of like she's there. It feels like she's swimming against the river. Um, you know, uh, her knowledge of politics in New York city, you know, and ultimately what she was hired for. Um, but the new advisors as she sees them like book, even though he says to her, no, I'm not an advisor. Um, and then Daniel, uh, the,

[00:41:09] the kid that she hired, you know, again, getting the ear of, um, of Wilson Fisk, uh, but also being able to bring new reporters like Bibi Orrick, uh, to him for a meeting to get that information around Gallo. Um, you know, she's kind of in a sense got a headwind against her. And I, but I, so I really enjoy as Sabrina Guevara's character here. Yeah. you know, there's a lot of times here where it feels like,

[00:41:39] um, you know, she's a bit exasperated by absolutely. She's the one that, you know, I like the fact that she's asking the questions, you know, she has that moment where she says, sorry, I don't mean to go into personal territory here, but your, uh, new year's speech really played well with the younger generation. But because Vanessa wasn't there, um, that, you know, the older demographics,

[00:42:08] um, it's kind of hurting those older demographics in terms of your polls and, and popularity. Um, and I like the fact that Fisk takes that on board. You know, I do feel, you know, is she going to say something at some point? Which means that she has her head beaten in. Well, you know, uh, Wilson Fisk is like, you know, she doesn't want to be part of the narrative. You know, we're working things through. And so can you give me some leeway and give me some time?

[00:42:38] So I would suggest because of how his reaction is to things he doesn't want to do, that this is just a case of Wilson getting something that he does want to do. He wants to, um, connect back with Vanessa. He, but he does know he needs time. So while he's giving the correct answer that his assistant is looking for, that he's going to mend things and hopefully Vanessa will be able to come out of the shadows and stand by his side because that will play well with the more conservative voters. Really? Really? He just wants to make it back with his wife.

[00:43:08] He wants to get back with Vanessa. That's really the thing. If he has to go to therapy for that, he's willing to do it. Um, because he probably would have anyway. Yeah. And so you have this moment where again, another little connection, you know, is it purposeful? Is it not? Um, that you have, um, both Wilson Fisk and Vanessa going to, uh, marriage therapy with Dr. Heather Glenn, who is dating Matt Murdoch. And you do see Dr. Glenn at her book launch, uh,

[00:43:39] being approached by book, um, you know, and then the next time you see them together, she's effectively signing NDAs. Yes. Um, before she goes in to have her first therapy session with the, with the couple. Interestingly as well, um, it seemed heavy with gravity, uh, just before book approaches, um, Dr. Glenn for a signature. Um,

[00:44:09] she's also approached by a young man who is kind of asking for help. Um, he looked pretty distraught. Yeah. And she's willing to make room for him in her schedule and she's willing to sort of help him out after this call for help at her book launch. But it feels there's something more to this encounter and like the was with book, you know? Exactly. Yeah. I had that feeling too. He just looks really distraught when he comes to her saying he's in need of help. But she goes,

[00:44:39] look, check on my email calendar. Hopefully we'll be able to find space for you. Uh, basically. So, um, yeah, I don't know. Just characters like that, uh, usually stand out in these shows. So let's see how that goes. Uh, one of the other things that, that we see, um, in the managing the optics is also, we see, uh, Wilson Fisk getting out of his car to, um, fix a pothole, which is causing major traffic diversions in New York. And it's, it's a little comic bookie in itself.

[00:45:08] I can't imagine this ever happening in New York. Hey, you guy over there, uh, what are you waiting for? I'm trying to get through this red tape. Hey, I'm the mayor. There's no such thing as red tape anymore. Snip that red tape and get over here and fill the hole. See? And then he gets on, you know, he gets on everybody's phone. He gets on, uh, social media going, um, here I am fixing all this stuff. Uh, interestingly, this actually happened to Arnold Schwarzenegger. Um, he was out in the streets of LA. People were moaning about, uh, potholes all over LA. And he went out and filled in a pothole,

[00:45:37] which turned out to be a hole that was dug so that they could get access to electrics or, or gas lines. Uh, and it had to be dug back out again because he didn't, didn't have the right paperwork to go for. He thought he was filling in a pothole and it wasn't a pothole. Um, so I just love that that's that little connection there as well. To be honest, I don't know what had happened to that road surface, whether the Hulk had fallen into it. It looked like a sinkhole. It's entirely possible. We are in the MCU. This is New York. Um, but I was like thinking,

[00:46:06] I don't think any traffic should be anywhere near that. Cause it was also on an elevated piece of roadway, but nonetheless, I'd probably just hold up, you know, that efficient thing by asking for the right paperwork. I guess. You, you, you do wonder in another draft of this, uh, of this episode, uh, would they have mentioned who made the hole? Was it that was a Thor landing or maybe, yeah, Deadpool doing a superhero landing or something, whatever it was. But again, I kind of like that in the car, you've got Sheila saying, well, you know,

[00:46:36] the first hundred days is just sort of settling in, doing the meeting greets with the various people, shaking hands, you know, whereas like, you know, he takes this opportunity to go out and get things done, you know, and Fisk will fix it. You know, I, so I kind of, I kind of like this dynamic between Sheila and Wilson Fisk, but also then with the other players in, his office, such as Buck and, um, and Daniel. And once again, with the, with the pothole,

[00:47:06] he is taking the, um, the Bob, the builder, uh, metaphor of Fisk will fix it a bit further. And if you want to mention about the actual therapy session itself with Heather Glenn, I thought I did think it was interesting that she, uh, asked for Vanessa's opinion first as to what happened. And they are very honest between them, what they actually say without saying that they're talking about, um, um, the type of business that they're in. Um, they're very clear. Um, they, they do keep involved that, uh,

[00:47:34] Wilson got shot and was sent off to recover. And while he was recovering it, Vanessa took over the business. And, uh, by the time he came back, she was having a lot of success with the business. And maybe that's a reason why she doesn't know whether she wants to get back at Wilson or not. I like this. It felt, it actually felt very honest between the two of them. Yeah. Certainly from Vanessa's size, you know, it was like, you know, we run a complex business. Um, and you know, it turned lonely whilst he was away.

[00:48:03] I missed Wilson. And then abruptly he returns. And I don't know what to feel. It's kind of, it seems like the gap from when he left to when he came back is much longer than I had in my own head. So it does feel like maybe echo. Like that whole series is actually a significant portion of time. It is. Yeah. You know,

[00:48:31] which remember she went on the run after the events. It's in Hawkeye. And from the point in the events in Hawkeye, where he got shot at the head and everybody thought he was dead from that point until, um, he returns in second episode, third episode of echo. Um, everybody thinks that Wilson Fisk is dead, which I presume means Vanessa probably did as well. Exactly. Or Vanessa, no, Vanessa was at his bedside thinking he was, he wasn't recovering, wasn't coming out of recovery. That's it. Yeah. But it, it's that abrupt return. And she, you know,

[00:49:00] she doesn't know how to perceive feelings because in a sense she's moved on. Yeah. Like we hear that she had had a fling with Adam. Um, but then you have Wilson saying, I'm here because I don't want to lose my wife. So, but that's really his view. I don't want to lose my wife. Exactly. Exactly. But interesting again, that they've engaged, uh, Heather Glenn. Yeah. I wonder if that's not entirely innocent coincidence here. That's true because, you know,

[00:49:28] that sit down that we saw last week between Wilson Fisk and Matt Murdoch indicated that both of them are monitoring each other. So it's entirely possible that he's, he's keeping another one of, uh, Matt Murdoch's, um, friends closer or another one of his enemies closer, I guess. exactly. Yeah. Um, excellent stuff. Let's get on to our final case note, John. Indeed. Yes. Finding Nikki Torres. And primarily this is the fight. I mean, effectively,

[00:49:58] Matt follows Shanahan's, the cop who died in the subway station, follows his partner. Yes. But one thing I have to say at the start of this, I loved, um, remember Matt Murdoch's a Catholic. Um, Matt Murdoch, traditionally throughout the series, uh, on Netflix has gone to confess his sins or look for help from, uh, father Lantham, uh, previously in the, in the previous shows, he's gone to church when he needs help and guidance. Um,

[00:50:28] he's in a case here, didn't know how it was going to proceed. He was able to get the idea of white tiger, uh, suppressed, but doesn't really know what the next step is because he doesn't, nobody knows who the witness is. And we see him standing outside the church in New York. And I absolutely believe this was going to be the moment where we would see that side of Matt's character, that side of Matt's personality is Catholic side, that he was going to walk into that church, speak with a, speak with a priest and find out, you know, what's the next steps effectively, how, how he can get help from God for, um,

[00:50:58] for the mission he's on here. But instead it's Matt tracking down the police officer, the partner of, of the, uh, the dead police officer and finding his way to, uh, Nikki Torres finding his way to this, uh, to this man who's in the wind effectively. Yeah. Um, I loved it. Great idea. Really good. Um, because he was looking for him and I think what goes down in the apartment, you know, uh,

[00:51:25] effectively you have Matt getting there just before, uh, the, the surviving cop and effectively his, his mate, another cop, I'm assuming, um, he's got chariots to, to sort of drive to a nearby part, uh, to pick Nikki Torres up in order to bring them into sort of, bring him to safety, uh, and, and to house him in safety. But, um, yeah, faces off with this cop. Uh,

[00:51:54] for me, I think the important thing was as, you know, they pull the gun on him. It's effectively, we're going to kill the lawyer, you know, and one of them questions, you know, are we going to do this? And it's basically, yes. And with that, he snaps into daredevil mode to sort of disarm the man by breaking his arm, yeah, unloading the gun, but also then starting to, um,

[00:52:21] fight with the surviving cop from the subway station. Um, and I mean, to me actually, it looks like Matt has killed the cop. Yes. From the subway station because, um, like just the, the way he throws him down and how he lands on his neck. The angle of his neck. The angle of his neck. I am sure he's killed that cop. Yeah. I thought so too. Not entirely sure whether he has, don't know,

[00:52:51] probably won't know until, uh, the next episode. Probably not. But, um, it just looks like he's killed him. It's also why he screams out and like shouts because of the situation that he, he's been forced into by the fact that he's had to defend himself from being shot in the head. Um, interestingly, we do see, um, that there is a punisher tattoo on the wrist of, uh, the guy with the gun. I think. It did look like that, didn't it?

[00:53:19] It did look like the specific skull that Netflix used to use for the punisher. Uh, that specific style. And we do know Frank Castle is returning for this season. Absolutely. On board again. Uh, but it was really, really good. I mean, a real dynamic fight. I loved how Matt used, uh, you know, the surroundings in the apartment. There's one where he, he turns, um, the cop ran, smacks him against the table, which was really, really good. Yeah. Uh, before sort of then flipping him over. And yeah,

[00:53:48] this whole landing on his neck thing, I was just like, okay, he's a goner. Yeah. He uses the fridge, you know, what self-respecting fighter wouldn't damn heavy. Those big French fridges. And so, yeah, I love this fight. It was so cool. It really felt brutal. And I think that's the great thing about daredevil fighting. It does feel like the boxing ring, like his father. Absolutely. Absolutely. Do not mess with the visually impaired lawyer at all.

[00:54:18] There's a reason why he survived so many of these cases, the unwinnable cases of the past. Uh, great stuff. What a great way to, uh, to close out the episode. And with that guttural scream, it is him almost accepting that maybe Cherry was right, that he is defending Hector Ayala because he reminds him of himself. He is the vigilante underneath it all. The person that wants to save the underdog and has the abilities to do so. So, uh, that scream is, is that moment of, oh God, I'm back again a year later. I'm, uh, I'm becoming the daredevil again almost.

[00:54:48] Yeah, exactly. Good stuff. Uh, that's it for our case notes. Do we have any addendum notes, uh, here or just notes? Just regular notes. Yes. Yes. A couple, a couple of little, uh, notes that I just wanted to mention. Um, there is an advert for Harlem's paradise in Times Square in the opening scene in the episode. Very good. We see, um, Wilson Fisk giving his address to everybody in Times Square. Harlem's paradise was the place we last saw Luke Cage at the end of his TV show.

[00:55:18] He just taken over Harlem's paradise. Just in case you didn't see, uh, Luke Cage or didn't watch Luke Cage really enjoyed that show, but that's where we saw him at the end. So the mention that Harlem's paradise still exists in this show means we may get some of the other defenders back in the future. Yeah. And there is also the poster for the Rogers, the musical. There certainly is. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. That's still, uh, still playing, um, widely across, uh, across New York city, which is cool. Indeed. Yeah. Um, I think the interesting thing as well,

[00:55:43] which we touched on lightly here was the meeting between B.B. Ulrich and, and Fisk because Fisk killed Ben Ulrich, um, because getting too close to the operation in the Marvel Netflix daredevil. Yeah. Um, and it's interesting, um, you know, that he calls him a great journalist. Yes. Um, I don't know. I just wonder is,

[00:56:13] does B.B have the inkling or knowledge that it was, was Fisk that killed her, um, uncle basically. And it's even just that, you know, Fisk says she will be useful. People have underestimated her before. Like, is he underestimating her? Is that kind of something that, or he, that he knows already that she's onto him. You know, his tentacles are quite, um,

[00:56:43] run quite wide and deep through the city of New York. That's true. Um, but I, I, I just liked that. Um, I just liked that meeting, that situation in the office, because there is a sense that B.B. is a bit more street smart, given the documentary style that she has for a start. Absolutely. Thing that she would have sort of investigated and learned from the streets, even about Fisk,

[00:57:12] that she, you know, is maybe playing Fisk as well, or certainly Daniel, you know, that led her there, because she even manages to get a question in about Vanessa, which Daniel is having to then apologize to Wilson Fisk for. So, yeah, just a nice, the, the, the, the dynamic is nice and tense and awkward. Yeah.

[00:57:36] And even though she outwardly doesn't seem to be nervous of him, you know? Yeah. Yeah. No, I get that. I don't think she is. I don't think she is nervous around him at all. And I wonder if that confidence is coming from the fact that she does know the secret. She does know that, uh, he killed her uncle and she's been trying to get close to him. Maybe that is it. Uh, be interesting to see as the season goes on. Definitely. And I've got another note. Um, you mentioned earlier on in his speech, Wilson Fisk specifically calling out the guys with a skull,

[00:58:06] spider guys with spiders in their chest or devil horns. I just wanted to mention it because, uh, Charlie Cox has been around the way quite a few times. Um, the Punisher has been in Netflix daredevils show. Uh, Charlie Cox was in Spider-Man no way home. And in the animated series, your friendly neighborhood Spider-Man. So interesting that those were the characters that were called out. There was no mention of say Ronan from the Hawkeye show, uh, for example, which would be another choice.

[00:58:33] It was very specific about the ones that Charlie Cox had appeared in. I just thought that was quite interesting. Yeah. Yeah. Good stuff. Uh, so that leads us to the defend Derek, do you defend daredevil born again? Episode two optics. Yeah, this is a great little episode. Um, I really enjoy when we get to see the lawyer episodes of daredevil. We've got to see them kind of few and far between. And there was always trying to, they were always trying to strike that balance on the 13 episode series on,

[00:59:03] on Netflix. They're always trying to get a few episodes in the courtroom and a few episodes that were just daredevil being daredevil. And here it's, you know, it's the second episode released on the same day as the first. And he doesn't wear the daredevil outfit again for the entire episode. We only get one real fight sequence right at the end. And it's kind of tops and tails, tails it with Hector's fight in the, uh, in the subway. And then, um, Matt Murdock's fight at the end of the episode.

[00:59:29] So the rest of the episode is about setting up this case that is now quite a big thing for Matt Murdock, which I really enjoyed. I thought that was really cool. And seeing how all these characters are interacting with each other, mostly new characters to this series, uh, interacting with each other and how they connect with each other. I think it's really good. And I, a nice couple of set up episodes of these two episodes to set up the series. So, uh, yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm even more intrigued. Um, as we go into the third episode next week, how about yourself, John? Do you defend daredevil born again season one,

[00:59:59] episode two optics? I really do defend, uh, this, this second episode of daredevil. Um, I, I just really, really enjoyed it. I'd give this four unfrisky fisks out of five. Yeah. Um, I just, again, another solid leaning to introducing these characters. You see why these two were released. You know, I like the fact that again, we have this mirroring of the two protagonists, you know, it's still a cold war here. Yeah.

[01:00:29] That's happening. They're not directly, um, engaging with one another yet. We do have fist engaging with Heather Glenn. Yeah. And, you know, ultimately we have Matt's being drawn into, um, the vigilante scene at this moment in time, defending, um, the vigilante Hector. So I, I like this kind of buildup here.

[01:00:57] I like the fact that they are mirroring one another in their sort of, um, day to day. Wilson Fisk, you know, leaning into the job, but having to fight commissioner Gallo, Matt Murdoch, you know, doing what he does best as a lawyer, having to take the case that has the whole police force rooting against him. Exactly. You know, so this is,

[01:01:26] I just found this really, really good. I, I just, you know, as well, I'm loving certain dynamics here, like commissioner Gallo and Fisk's interaction. I really, really enjoyed, um, Sheila and Fisk as well. Um, yeah, just that, that dynamic of the thing that you were hired to do, but seemingly are being ignored at every turn as to how you should be, um, fit, you know, the mayor of, of New York.

[01:01:56] Um, and, and also then Cherry and Matt Murdoch as well. Just all these are really nicely tying together. And indeed Heather, you know, so far, uh, so good. I think when you see a bit more of her, but I'm thinking with the marriage counseling of Vanessa and Wilson Fisk, as well as that sort of, um, odd interaction at her book launch, with, um, the,

[01:02:24] the troubled sort of adult, I'm like, okay, that's really, really intriguing. There's some really nice and intriguing elements here as well. So yeah, absolutely defend this episode of Daredevil for unfrisky Fisks out of five. Or for Vanessa's out of five, I guess you call the unfrisky Fisks. Yes. Excellent stuff. Oh, John, I'm part. I think we need to go to the pub for a drink.

[01:02:53] I think we do. Yes. Um, welcome fellow defenders, fellow quizzers to Josie's pub quiz. It is episode two. So we are moving on to our second question of this series of Daredevil. Question two. While on another dinner date, what is the dream destination that Heather and Matt discuss? And what would they drink there? I guess it's on kind of whiskey watch in quiz form. Yeah.

[01:03:23] Just not with whiskey. Yeah. There's no whiskey in this episode. Uh, not that I could see. Um, but we do need a drinks question, uh, for a second episode because we'll try it. We'll always try. As we said before, if you want to anticipate the question, if you see a drink in an episode, it's likely to be, uh, in the question for the episode. Exactly. John, do you want to give the question one more time? Yeah. While on another dinner date, what is the dream destination that Heather and Matt discuss? And what would they drink there? Fantastic.

[01:03:50] That's the second question in our Josie's pub quiz of nine at the end of the series. Gather together all the correct answers. Email us into feedback at tvpodcastindustries.com. And you can be in with a chance of getting your hands on some daredevil goodies. Excellent. The questions for the series will be available on our website, tvpodcastindustries.com. Just as soon as I have time to write them up and put them up there. uh, give it a little time. They will definitely all be there by the end of the series though. I promise. Yes. Good stuff.

[01:04:18] Let us get into our feedback section from our fellow defenders. great to have you back defenders. Uh, first up an email on episode one from coffee and vodka. Greetings, fellow returning defenders. Welcome back to the exception to the dramatic rule. The day the devil walks in the sun without a care is the day the devil no longer matters. And from this first episode, he's mattering plenty. Dario Scott,

[01:04:46] the pain has served solid notice that we needn't to feared any Disneyfication of Netflix's favorite son with the very unfortunate sacrifice of foggy Nelson. Graphic violence and all the spicy language we've come to love. I must admit that I've cheated by checking IMDb for any further appearances by Elden and there's none.

[01:05:10] I had hoped that we would have followed the comics by stashing a miraculously alive foggy in witness protection, but it's not to be. As strong as Murdoch Daredevil's presence is, Fisk is likewise back in full menacing form. The same goes for Bullseye and Vanessa. Finally, if there had to be a sacrificial lamb on team Matt, I'm glad it wasn't Karen.

[01:05:34] I know I missed something in all of that was offered up here like Heather Glenn and how I hope she feels better in live action. But at the end of the day, I'm just glad Daredevil's back. Five plus Chuck Dex's, Fallen Foggy's, and Sean Horns out of five. Peace and take care. Coffee and vodka. Excellent coffee and vodka. Very impressed with that. Yeah, I think I mentioned on the first episode,

[01:06:00] I loved that we had Matt and Karen's reaction to the death of Foggy. It's a really important thing to have both of them reacting to his death. And that is switched up from the comics. Generally in the comics, Bullseye goes after the love interest of Matt, which in the past has been people like Elektra or Karen, of course. So here that being switched up. I would also say though, just because it's not on IMDb doesn't necessarily mean it's true.

[01:06:30] And that's no spoiler at all. IMDb is filled out by regular people. It's a Wikipedia page effectively. So not necessarily confirmation until all episodes are out that we won't be seeing Eldon Henson again. Even if it's just in a flashback, they may not have put it in there. So not a guarantee. So just to say that. But it would be great to have Foggy back, but he looked pretty dead as a dodo. He is. I would say he is in the show.

[01:06:58] I'm not going to suggest that he isn't either. I would also say at this point, I meant to say it up front, but just be really careful about spoilers out there. All nine episodes of this season were provided as screeners by Disney+. So you may see a few spoiler laden articles masquerading as speculation pieces. So just be really careful out there if you don't want to be spoiled on the show. We won't do that here at TVPI because we haven't watched ahead. So we can't spoil anything. We never do. We don't.

[01:07:28] No, we don't. If we can. Exactly. Exactly. We got one other message on episode one over on our Facebook group from Preston Jarvis, who simply says, that was upsetting. I'm still in shock. Do you know what you mean? Like, it's true. I was not expecting to see Foggy brutally ripped Franz with a ripping bullet through his chest cavity. Yeah, absolutely. I thought he maybe meant the shock of Wilson Fisk becoming mayor, but none of us can be surprised by that.

[01:07:58] This day and age. Great stuff. Thanks, Preston. We also got an email in on the first two episodes from Victor Von Doom, who says, Greetings, Defenders. First off, RIP Kamara Dallareus and RIP Foggy. I loved the return of Matt Murdock. Kingpin Erb Fisk described their persona perfectly. It will be great fun to see them revert to form. There is a great mix of drama and action here, and boy, were those two cops at the end of episode two asking for it. Seeing Matt in action again was, as expected, great.

[01:08:28] Even without his costume. Anyone taking odds on which suit he wears first in Dee Dee's return? Will the Daniel Blake card to become Fisk's new Wesley? He sure does try hard. Until next time, don't sweat the small stuff, because it's all small stuff. Excelsior. Victor Cherry Von Doom. Excellent. Yeah. Thanks so much, Victor, for the comments. Interesting. Yeah, I hadn't really thought that Daniel Blake could become Fisk's new Wesley,

[01:08:57] but certainly Fisk has an interest in what Daniel says. Yes. I think at the moment we know that Book is, so maybe it's Book who needs to sort of be looking over his shoulder. I just don't quite know the extent to which Daniel Blake may have been immersed in the underworld of New York to be of much use, but maybe that's the reason why it's a Gandolfini playing the character, of course. His dad was the head of the Sopranos, John.

[01:09:27] Exactly. So interesting take. I was going, Book is the new Wesley, but yeah, you might be right. It could be Daniel. Snippling Daniel. He might be asked to prove his worth at some point. Maybe. Maybe. Fantastic stuff. Thanks so much. Great to hear from you, Victor. Yeah. Thanks, Victor. Also, another email from Coffee and Vodka, this time on episode two. Greetings, fellow incarcerated defenders. Not a lot to say.

[01:09:55] An excellent procedural for Matt and Hector and revision to type for the Kingpin, both with NYPD issues. Further, a tie-in via Heather Glenn and her role as the counselor for the mayor and his missus. And both dealing the only way they seem to know how, with threats from Wilson and violence from Matt. Liking the Spider-Man reference and can hardly wait for next week.

[01:10:20] Four train masses, hidden tigers, and fridge magnet thugs out of five. Peace and take care. Coffee and vodka. Great stuff. Thanks, Coffee and vodka. It was really nice having a Spider-Man reference in there with Kingpin, because Kingpin is probably most well-known in the comics as a Spider-Man villain. He's one that's always been around the way. And having, obviously, Matt Murdock having an appearance in a Spider-Man movie,

[01:10:45] you would love to have a quick little cameo in here from Tom Holland as Peter Parker at some point. It's awful, wouldn't it? Especially with the ending of the last Spider-Man movie that nobody knows that Peter Parker is Spider-Man. You could have him just hidden in the background or just going to get a coffee in the background. But I don't think they're at that stage of negotiations at the moment. I think they've negotiated a new Spider-Man movie, though. I think so, yeah, yeah. I think so. Yeah, but you never know. So who knows? Yeah.

[01:11:13] Could be a little cameo going on there for sure. Absolutely. Back on over to Facebook, our Facebook group at facebook.com slash group slash TV podcast industries. The wonderful Ray Ray Pod from Into the Night, the Moon Knight podcast says, Oh my gosh, wow. It's amazing to see the cast from Dee Dee back again. I just wasn't ready for the first 10 minutes of the episode, though. Just watched both episodes and I'm back. Immersed as I ever was back when the show was on Netflix. Love the new characters.

[01:11:39] And there's that uncertainty still there that Kingpin might do something horrible and shocking. Absolutely. D'Onofrio and Cox are amazing as always. It's very subdued with the action, but I like the double meaning to Born Again. It's the return of Dee Dee into Disney Plus, but you can just tell it'll be a rebirth of Dee Dee from the events in episode one. Can't wait to hear your thoughts on it. Oh, I'm already getting hot with nostalgia. Big smiley face from Ray as well. Fantastic. Ray, totally there with you.

[01:12:08] I think the first time we watched these episodes, I just couldn't stop smiling going. This feels like the adult show that we've been craving for so long from Daredevil again. It feels right of a piece with those heady days 10 years ago when we kicked off Defenders TV podcast covering Daredevil, didn't it? Yeah, absolutely. I'm totally with you there, Ray. It's so good seeing these characters back.

[01:12:33] It really does feel like a successor to the Netflix shows. Without a shadow of a doubt, D'Onofrio and Cox are just fantastic together. I think the diner scene in and of itself showed that both of them so good at portraying these characters and just bringing them to life. It's really, really good.

[01:13:01] And so, yeah, totally with you. The nostalgia is hitting hard with these. We just need old Jessica to show up as well. As well as having Luke Cage and, dare I say it, the Iron Fist as well. She might as well have everybody back. Exactly. It'd be cool. Just there are rumors that they are in talks to bring back the Defenders again for Disney+. If this shows a success, they will bring them back. There's no confirmation of it. They have a way to do it, I'm sure.

[01:13:30] If they want to bring each of the characters back in their own shows or if they want to do a new Defenders show all under the banner of Disney+. They are in talks. Nothing is off the table at the moment is what we're hearing. But the one big thing that we have heard the announcement about now since just before the episodes were released is that we are getting a one-off Punisher special. Like the Werewolf by Night special that was done a couple of years ago. And also confirmed is going to be part written by Jon Bernthal, who plays Frank Castle in The Punisher.

[01:13:58] So that was a very interesting proposition that we will definitely be getting another sequel. That is good. This show is nine episodes of the two-season commitment. There is going to be a second season of Daredevil Born Again. And also we're going to get that spin-off, one-off of The Punisher as well. So it'll be lots of fun coming from the old Defenders as we get into our first decade. Absolutely. Yeah, great stuff. Thanks, Ray, for the feedback. And great to hear from you. Thanks, Ray.

[01:14:27] Finally, on Facebook, we have Harley Locust who says, I'm so glad they're not ignoring the events of Echo. I'm curious as to where in the timeline She-Hulk fits in, but I'm willing to ignore it for now. All in all, it feels close enough to season three to fit right into the Netflix first. My wildest hope for this season would be for a Turk appearance. Indeed. P.S. The mask and the beard do not work well together.

[01:14:56] Hope he shaves before putting it on again. Absolutely agree with you. Don't say it. Hear, hear, Harvey, on that one. How itchy would it be having a beard? It does work a bit weird. Can you imagine if it was even bushier? Big, bushy Daredevil happening. So, yeah, maybe he needs to have a few Gillettes sent over to him. Well, absolutely. For sure. But, yeah, I think having Turk appear in the show would be fantastic.

[01:15:27] It would be great seeing Turk Barrett back. He used to appear in multiple shows, but I think Rob Morgan, the actor, went on to have quite a significant role as a police officer in Stranger Things, which is coming back for its final season on Netflix this year. So I think he's been taken up with other Netflix shows over the last couple of years. So it would be really nice to have a quick little moment with him, though, wouldn't it? It would. We always look forward to those. Yeah, definitely.

[01:16:23] Fantastic. As a reminder, we are also over on Patreon and buymeandcoffee.com as well, where you can support us there if you so choose. But we will be back next week with our chat all about Daredevil born again episode three, surprisingly.

[01:16:42] We are also hoping to begin our podcasts on the third season of The Wheel of Time as well, if we can fit it into the exploding schedule that is happening at the moment, as well as finishing off the podcast on Invincible season three. Yes, myself and Chris are covering the last two episodes in the next couple of days. So we'll be covering episode seven just after it's released and then episode eight when it comes out next week.

[01:17:10] Very much looking forward to how that show wraps up for its third season. It's a really good, interesting show over on Prime Video. If you like animated shows, you like adult animated superhero shows, go check that out, definitely. Yes, absolutely. Thanks so much for joining us. We can't wait to come back with Daredevil born again next week. Indeed. Good stuff, fellow defenders. Keep it coming.