Shogun Chapter 9 Podcast

[00:00:00] This is the Shogun Podcast on TV Podcast Industries, we're onto the penultimate episode of Shogun, Chapter 9 Crimson Sky.

[00:00:30] It is only because he's trying to find his own way out to tempest and above.

[00:00:36] War is coming.

[00:00:37] Welcome back fellow warriors to TV Podcast Industries, we're talking about Shogun, Chapter 9. The penultimate episode Crimson Sky, I'm one of your hosts, Derek.

[00:01:07] Hello there fellow warriors, I am your other host John. Welcome to this episode of the Podcast.

[00:01:14] Well, I'm exhausted. Yes, I took me a while to get over this episode with the tension and the huge emotional tension in it.

[00:01:25] Absolutely.

[00:01:27] So good.

[00:01:28] How they keep that tension as taught as a violin string.

[00:01:34] Yeah, I was absolutely untouched to hook the whole way through the episode just wondering what was going to happen next.

[00:01:40] Very difficult episode to watch but I really, really good.

[00:01:44] So good, really.

[00:01:46] I mean, given that no massive battle pee here, it almost feels like understated in what you expect to happen.

[00:01:55] With that of actually.

[00:01:56] With these two closing episodes, it would kind of be building to some kind of physical action piece or this warfare effectively.

[00:02:07] But instead, it's this really intimate warfare and tension.

[00:02:12] Yeah.

[00:02:13] Really kind of high political game playing going on here but so dramatically tense.

[00:02:19] And of course with absolute personal consequences as we find out.

[00:02:25] So yeah, so good.

[00:02:27] This show just continues to amaze me.

[00:02:29] Yeah, absolutely. I do really wonder people who haven't read the book and didn't know what the story was going to go like ourselves.

[00:02:36] I wonder how it's going to play with them. It's interesting. I've seen lots of comments as the episodes have been going on.

[00:02:41] People have become really big fans of the show, but I think earlier on there were a lot of comments in the first couple of episodes kind of going.

[00:02:46] Well, there's a lot of talking here, not much fighting.

[00:02:49] I'm expecting army versus army battles going on and that's kind of been avoided quite a lot for the ship.

[00:02:54] Absolutely. Yeah, it's actually about the political maneuvering to get into positions of power.

[00:03:00] Exactly.

[00:03:01] The kind of battle is in a sense it's been churning flashback.

[00:03:06] Whether we get a battle in the final episode, that's possibly still to come.

[00:03:12] We just don't know but certainly it's all hinted at but it's also the political warfare really here.

[00:03:20] But I do think that's the point of the series of show gun is Tora Naga no longer wants warfare.

[00:03:26] That was the purpose of having the Tyco beforehand. If he's to take over, he no longer wants battles more fair in Japan.

[00:03:33] I think there's some kind of staff that so many battles were happening up until 1600 that everybody had lost somebody that's related to them.

[00:03:41] Tora Naga is trying to avoid a battle at all costs and just interested seeing I'm sure are wonderful fellow warriors

[00:03:47] who are sending in the feedback in this episode.

[00:03:49] And I'm interested to see how it's landing with them that the show's avoiding those big battles.

[00:03:53] Absolutely. I mean, I think the historical context, not to oversimplify it is that the different plans,

[00:04:00] the majority of people in Japan are weary of war.

[00:04:05] Exactly.

[00:04:06] There has been far too much bloodshed over the previous centuries and it began to get weary

[00:04:14] and it's trying to maneuver without large scale conflict.

[00:04:20] Exactly.

[00:04:21] I think is really what's kind of been shown here.

[00:04:24] But as you say with lots of conflict, just not large scale army versus army conflict.

[00:04:29] Lots of personal conflicts, lots of personal machinations, maneuvering and trickery

[00:04:37] and it's all in the service of gaining power which is also what warfare is about.

[00:04:43] Exactly. It's just in a different way.

[00:04:45] Exactly.

[00:04:46] So really, really good.

[00:04:47] Yeah, it is. It's really, really good.

[00:04:49] Just as we're coming up to the last episodes of Shogun,

[00:04:52] we'd love if you came over and subscribed to the podcast on any podcast provider

[00:04:56] wherever you get your podcast.

[00:04:58] The main podcast feed is TV podcast industry.

[00:05:01] So go find that or you can pop it over to our website at tvpodcastindustries.com

[00:05:05] and it's loads of options for you there to subscribe to our main feed.

[00:05:08] All the other shows that we cover on a regular basis,

[00:05:11] we've been podcasting for 10 years.

[00:05:12] The Shogun podcast was our 10th anniversary podcast, something a bit different for us

[00:05:16] but hopefully you'll find something else that you're interested in over there.

[00:05:19] We do of course still want to hear your thoughts about Shogun.

[00:05:22] Email us to feedback at tvpodcastindustries.com

[00:05:26] and we'll chat about them on the next episode.

[00:05:28] Yes.

[00:05:29] But let us get into our spoiler-filled discussion of chapter 9 of Shogun,

[00:05:34] Rimsonsky, Derek, what awesome of the episode details.

[00:05:39] The show of course is based on the James Lavell 1975 novel of the same name

[00:05:43] the headwriters for the show, Our Rachel Kondo and Justin Marx.

[00:05:46] This episode was written by Rachel Kondo and Kayleen Puente.

[00:05:49] Kayleen is a story editor in Shogun and was an assistant to Justin Marx

[00:05:52] on his previous show, Counterpart.

[00:05:54] Okay, excellent.

[00:05:55] That's quite cool.

[00:05:56] So they must have worked together at Rachel Kondo

[00:05:57] and Justin Marx are married.

[00:05:59] So they must have worked together on Kaelin from that work on Counterpart.

[00:06:03] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:06:04] And this episode was directed by Frederick Toyy.

[00:06:07] This is his third episode of Shogun and he directs next week's finale.

[00:06:10] He also directed Follace which came out this week.

[00:06:14] I think it was three episodes of Follace as well.

[00:06:16] It was just interesting seeing his name pop up on each of the episodes

[00:06:19] we've been to the entire season of Follace.

[00:06:21] Yes, absolutely.

[00:06:22] We aren't so much better than the video game.

[00:06:25] It's significantly better.

[00:06:26] At least for me.

[00:06:27] Yeah, I think we both had played, I tried to play some of the video games and gotten through

[00:06:32] a bouton now or maybe.

[00:06:34] No, no, I spent three hours and I hadn't gone out of the vault and I was like, okay, screw

[00:06:38] this.

[00:06:39] As I came out of the vault it was like this open world where I could like squash a bug

[00:06:45] or whatever.

[00:06:46] I didn't know which direction to go to and I had no idea where I was supposed to go to

[00:06:52] so I gave it a miss but it's in the Wheelhouse of Bioshock which is one of my favourite games

[00:06:57] in terms of that kind of almost steampunk type or 60s sci-fi, those kind of crosses and amalgamations.

[00:07:06] So I really like that style and I really enjoyed the series of Follace because I really liked Jonathan Nolan as well.

[00:07:15] Absolutely.

[00:07:17] Yeah, the person of interest but also Westworld's big stuff so yeah really good.

[00:07:22] Yeah it was really good.

[00:07:23] We're obviously as you can probably tell we're not going to cover it on the podcast the entire season

[00:07:27] that Follace was dropped in one day on Prime Video which is something that we tend not to cover

[00:07:32] unless it's something that we've covered before like on Browse Academy or Sandman or the Witcher.

[00:07:38] They've all been chosen.

[00:07:39] Oh well, definitely.

[00:07:40] Exactly.

[00:07:41] Exactly.

[00:07:42] But that's when everything was just dropped all at once.

[00:07:44] But obviously as we're covering so much of the stuff on our main feed and the podcast

[00:07:48] we couldn't get around to covering Follace.

[00:07:50] Go check it out if you're into the style as John just described it there and it's definitely worth watching

[00:07:54] if you're into that kind of thing.

[00:07:55] And it's got a really nice dark sense of humour as well.

[00:07:58] That would be the surprise I missed.

[00:07:59] Yeah, given it's all in the context of an atomic bomb drop.

[00:08:05] So yes, nicely darkly human.

[00:08:08] Very much so.

[00:08:09] But let's get back to Shogun.

[00:08:11] John, do you want to tell us what they gave us with your synopsis for a Shogun?

[00:08:15] Chapter 9 Crimson Sky.

[00:08:17] Sure.

[00:08:18] Mariko arrives in Osaka for the fight of her life.

[00:08:22] Black villain and Yaboshige scrambled to save their own heads as their options to window.

[00:08:28] Hmm.

[00:08:29] Yes.

[00:08:30] This to me was just a storyboarding from tension to more tension.

[00:08:35] Yep.

[00:08:36] To more tension.

[00:08:37] Exactly.

[00:08:38] Sort of punctuated with superbly, dramatically tense pieces.

[00:08:43] Definitely.

[00:08:44] I thought it was fantastic.

[00:08:45] In fact, I thought it was phenomenal.

[00:08:47] I just really, really enjoyed it.

[00:08:49] It was totally on edge for the whole of this episode which is a narrow long.

[00:08:55] Absolutely.

[00:08:56] We've watched it three times now as well.

[00:08:58] Absolutely.

[00:08:59] I'm an unshambling nervous wreck.

[00:09:01] Absolutely.

[00:09:02] But even multiple watches still don't take away the tension.

[00:09:05] Well, we start with Yaboshige and Black Thorne in our Boshido one.

[00:09:09] Because there is a massive amount of tension at the beginning.

[00:09:13] And I'm not too sure exactly how much John Black Thorne understands.

[00:09:17] Well, the main Boshido here is Yaboshige offers John in exchange for his life.

[00:09:24] So he offers to Ashido the use of the engine in exchange for him keeping his head.

[00:09:31] So I just loved how the scene I'll play it out.

[00:09:34] We see that John now understands a lot more about Japanese culture and is starting to understand the language a bit more.

[00:09:40] Although there is a conversation between John and Yaboshige where Yaboshige tries to explain his plan

[00:09:47] of what he's going to do sort of tells John to stay by his side when they go and talk to Ashido the next day.

[00:09:54] And all John responds with is tomorrow Ashido.

[00:09:58] And I'm not sure whether John understands that he's going to be handed back over to Ashido.

[00:10:04] Yeah, I mean, I think it's really clear in this moment that John Black Thorne is effectively being used as a pawn

[00:10:10] Yes, of the ruling class in Japan.

[00:10:15] Whether it is to learn new tactics and we'll just give them the advantage on battlefield like we saw with the cannons.

[00:10:24] Whether it is a distraction almost which I almost feel tornaga as well as the strategy and tactics of cannon warfare and naval warfare.

[00:10:36] John Black Thorne is the talk of a lot of people or he's dismissed as the barbarian and yet.

[00:10:43] And tornaga is in effect using that as a distraction almost you know because it draws the conversation but at the same time

[00:10:51] he can he can hide behind that or he can get something from it while they think it's sort of almost.

[00:11:01] The John Black Thorne is a play thing of tornaga yes he is but also tornaga is using him strategically here the Yaboshige wants to use them as well in order to try and keep him self alive exactly.

[00:11:14] But there's also you know the conversation between him and Lord Kiyama as well.

[00:11:23] Yes, you know Lord Kiyama feels like he will have John Black Thorne back where he can effectively be executed for being not Catholic

[00:11:32] Yeah, not poach geese and you have that really interesting conversation there from Kiyama which is like you know I don't concern myself too much with matters of faith.

[00:11:43] It's absolutely yeah I'm I'm a student of trade so it's the trade element that is the important thing in this relationship of faith with the Catholic Church

[00:11:57] and also with the poach geese emissaries.

[00:12:00] Yes, it is but that's in response to John's accusation to him.

[00:12:04] Yeah, he asks him is this faith in God or your purse strings that are more important to you and his response is that he's a more of a student of trade so kind of selling himself there as someone that isn't Christian even though he says all the words and followed along with poach geese

[00:12:21] and interesting again someone else speaking in English or poach geese to John at that point so he's talking to him in his own language other people can't hear a random so I think he's he feels pretty comfortable in front of John saying that actually no I'm about the commerce not about the religion so nobody asking to understand that so

[00:12:39] really interesting moment and it kind of feeds into something later on in the episode I think it kind of sets up to this character really doesn't care about the religious side of things as long as he's getting paid so I thought that was quite interesting.

[00:12:51] Well, he's accumulated great wealth with this relationship and by virtue of that great power I mean there is that moment where he says well not all the guns in Japan should be owned by you so you know he is from a position of strength because he has all these modern

[00:13:08] armaments you know cannons muskets pistols and so on you know yeah exactly exactly but interestingly the offer from Yabashiga to a shido is turned down and a shido says to him that the air has no interest in the barbarian and that's the end of it and they're just told to move aside and sit back

[00:13:27] and see that moment from Yabashiga kind of going well we tried I guess yeah no absolutely like I really love this whole sort of court meeting with a shido and a cheaper than the first part of this business was with Yabashiga who was effectively giving the formal

[00:13:46] and almost seren you know I am surrendering on behalf of torn aga here was he still grieving for his son which is met with a really harsh response well he's got many more sons from a shido you know there is this quite clear sort of view that there are tricks going on here all there is maneuvering at least and but I love how a she does he just describes all of Yabashiga's pleasant

[00:14:16] trees and proposals are as hollow words from a traitor yes and he's he's dismissed like as you say Yabashiga is saying I tried whether this in and of itself is a smoke screen by a shido because we do

[00:14:33] hear later you know that she does has accepted Yabashiga is offered for service but yeah I think that's only when he's been backed into a corner legs are on

[00:14:43] I agree to this point he is no longer willing to tolerate but Yabashiga he's turned on him multiple times he's followed torn aga's orders

[00:14:51] Yabashiga tries to play off that it was torn aga's maneuvering the got him to free torn aga from a sacca with ice

[00:15:00] Yabashiga knowing that but unfortunately they're the battle that ensued afterwards the killed lots of a shido's men was led by Yabashiga so yeah and so he's not able to stand over that well enough for a shido

[00:15:14] I think at this point actually early on in the episode Yabashiga was still very much in danger of dying until that later offer comes in no absolutely the other interesting point here with this sort of meeting

[00:15:27] of the court is we do learn that she had an achiever are engaged they did to get engaged yes that's quite interesting because last time we talked about in last week's

[00:15:37] episode that a shiba wouldn't answer any questions from anybody she is someone like torn aga who makes her decisions in her own pace and the offer of marriage was laid out by a shido and she did not answer at all so this

[00:15:52] episode we hear from Mariko that's the two are engaged yeah I think the other interesting thing here with John Blackthorn as well you know this this kind of notion that he's a bit of a rag doll being

[00:16:05] against between the ruling elite even when he's requested to come for an audience with the air the the boy king and Mariko points out it's only so that I could be brought in front of a cheetah so

[00:16:19] that we could have communication between ourselves without attracting suspicion yes you know in the end he's just in the background

[00:16:29] whilst this phenomenal discussion between the two sort of plays out yeah absolutely and but I think yeah I mean that's not so John doesn't have marriage and value as I've said

[00:16:41] it's just that he's not in a sense that important this is an internal matter yes whatever once it's consolidated that they may want to play

[00:16:55] Portuguese off with Dutch and British or whatever and you know the at the moment as it stands you know John is viewed as a barbarian even though he's been able to learn some you know some

[00:17:09] Japanese decent amount as a cheaper kind of sort of recognizes yeah well although I do love that he says the phrase to her in Japanese could you please speak slowly and use simple words

[00:17:20] yeah she looks at him goes you've learnt that phrase that's a smart thing to do I'm American must have taught you that's the phrase that you say when you went to a room for the first time so similar to all I was saying last week about some of his major phrases seem to be

[00:17:32] things you could learn as sentences are from a phrase book almost yeah absolutely and I that's why I think that conversation that was there between

[00:17:40] Yabashiga and John was quite funny because both of them are looking at each other they can kind of feel the intent to renders but I'm not too sure whether John was fully clear on what Yabashiga's plan was even though he it was told to sort

[00:17:55] out because Yabashiga was trying to try and obscure a little bit his intent but but an interesting opener for the episode the majority of the episode itself as anybody who's watched us will be aware of

[00:18:08] it is mostly about Mariko from here on she is a really central character in the episode will move on to

[00:18:14] at the shoot of two and a second but the episode does even open with Mariko at 14 years ago trying to walk out into the snow and effectively take her own life by dying in the snow

[00:18:26] and that's when she's pregnant with her child as well so and we we have known throughout the series that she's always felt the need to commit

[00:18:34] to in response to what her father had done that she always was going to take her own life but was not allowed to by a Buntaro so this is a third attempt at taking her own life in the flashback that we see.

[00:18:46] Yeah, no it's interesting actually because we also do see her kind of first connection with Father Martin as he kind of introduces her to I guess his own faith by giving her across with Rosary Beats

[00:19:00] Yes and you know as always you know starting her on the path of Christianity but really interesting thing that Father Martin said to her is I also too have felt

[00:19:10] lost and being through hardship and I believe God spurred me for purpose.

[00:19:14] Yeah, and I think with Mariko's face is they actually you know we had that point of you know are you for the church or are you for your plan

[00:19:22] and just as I can be both yes and I think that idea is that her faith as well as her loyalty to the Tarnaga clan

[00:19:34] both drive her purpose yeah as well as you know the instructions at Tarnaga has done ultimately to get to the end which she is looking for really here.

[00:19:46] So you know because there's a lot about her saying you know there is purpose in death as there is in life and there's a lot of philosophical discussions around

[00:19:57] sort of death and dying yeah but I thought that was an interesting line from Father Martin here it felt to me as though both her faith and

[00:20:06] and you know her own Japanese culture yeah and those royalties to the clan have both driven her purpose here absolutely in the end.

[00:20:20] And I like I would think that that's quite a central tenet of Christian faiths and I know certainly in my own bringing us and Catholicism that there's a tendency for people to encourage joining a Christian faith so that you

[00:20:34] have God there at all times to support you when nobody else is around when you feel your alone God is there to support you and that feels like what

[00:20:42] is being offered here by Father Martin this idea that there's this one God that will always be there will always hear you

[00:20:48] and you're never alone on your own with your own thoughts so obviously Mara got her life very much alone

[00:20:54] and very much the last member of the clan left behind.

[00:20:58] The interesting is that moment of you know it's Father Martin there in her moment of most knees which she most certainly

[00:21:06] is but also in her moment of most susceptibility to yeah I'm just you know I think it's very difficult to sort of separate some of those things sometimes.

[00:21:20] I think Father Martin does believe he's doing the right thing he is a true believer in God I think of the characters that we see within the Portuguese that are here it feels like Father Martin is

[00:21:30] the most god godly or the most true Catholic that is here yeah because he seems to have more of a faith in God than the others the rest of them all

[00:21:40] do seem to be quite taken with their purse strings and quite taken with the with the ruling orders in their countries

[00:21:46] whereas Father Martin does tend to go much more in the religious side so I think he is a true ally to Marico and the true ally and the faith as well.

[00:21:56] So anyway just thought it was an interesting opener to have the two of them let's get into our Bichido number two.

[00:22:02] Mara got offer or what Mara is here to do so she is here in Osaka to take back Tarenaga's wife and child

[00:22:10] and she makes this statement really in front of a Shido directly after Yabashiga has made his offer.

[00:22:18] It's I say that it is a statement it's not an offer she's not here to say to plead for the return of Tarenaga's newly born son and his wife.

[00:22:30] She is here to tell them that is her role she had been given the direction by Tarenaga she must accomplish this that's her lord that's given her

[00:22:38] the direction that's what you must do go there pick them up bring them back immediately and then they will return to Osaka at the time appointed by a Shido once the period of mourning has passed for Tarenaga son on Tarenaga.

[00:22:52] Well that's it I mean again this is one of the big first tense meetings and it follows on immediately from Yabashiga

[00:23:01] and that's you have that contrast here in this council meeting because like Yabashiga Mara goes through the pleasantries there's a little reconnection with lady Achieba as well around the poetry competition with the death of the Taiko's wife in the previous episode

[00:23:20] and how you know Mariko was always good at those they always had these poetry competitions so you start the first line of the poem you know Mariko is all sort of falling into these pleasantries in a sense

[00:23:36] and but then she says well I'm not staying so I won't be able to be involved in this competition and she'll be leaving with lady Shizu and Kiri back to Tarenaga whilst he's grieving

[00:23:50] and it's this moment where actually the authority openly in this council meeting really is of a Shido that authority is challenged by her you know I'll return unless you confine me here you know she bring I will never be confined held hostage or captive

[00:24:10] she says to the Shido who keeps you know they're effectively butting heads here says but she's refuses I am no peasant to be trodden so she's asserting her authority over a Shido

[00:24:25] I think if I remember correctly the character of a Shido in history comes from a peasant upbringing has worked his way up so that you know she's stating I come from family over a thousand years of samurai

[00:24:42] so she's really challenging a Shido here and it makes for a really tense council meeting and you know ultimately her saying I am free to go as I please I am high born lady in Klan Tarenaga effectively he has given me an order and I must carry out that as part of my duty which is to return lady Shizu and Kiri

[00:25:12] back to him and I mean you can see the kind of you know earlier on in this series you saw and a Shido just doing stamps on dockets and realizing he's a bureaucrat Tarenaga is something different he does that as well but he almost something different

[00:25:30] and here Shido really almost comes out with the bureaucratic well you will have to come back here in a few days anyways what's the point of waiting just wait here you know no one's being held hostage here yet

[00:25:45] and ultimately the gates are locked so I love this openly hostile effectively challenged actually the Shido through words and by Mariko really asserting and the determination that effectively you know in the morning she will be leaving with the two ladies back to Tarenaga

[00:26:08] yeah yeah and it's supposed it's what makes it such an interesting show because technically again it's a cancel of regions where she does has assumed a position higher than he actually has attained he is not the leader he's not the tyco he is not the new shogun he is not the leader of Japan but nobody standing in his way when he's making directions on the direction

[00:26:29] he's making sand as you say bureaucratically correct they send like they are just natural things to say what's the point of leaving in coming back in five days times they hear now

[00:26:40] and Mariko knowing what he's trying to do here trying to capture as another prisoner amongst all of the prisoners of all of the families here knows that technically he can't do this if people find out that he's holding prisoners in the castle there will be open revolt and that's what she's trying to push

[00:26:57] that's the real mission exactly exactly and I mean you know it is it's a manufactured setup to generate that situation is exactly I think John Blackthulm described it best you know you will walk into a sword to prove the blade is sharp

[00:27:12] you know you can't leave but you press it anyway and you have a shige equally you know where whereas he folds and Mariko continue to challenge as she do you know you have to do does kind of chastise I know

[00:27:30] and if I know she knows that this is torn aga and you know exactly what you were doing like but it's setting the trap or she do and he's fallen into it this this manufactured setup effect exactly

[00:27:51] and it's just really really interesting yeah it's just fascinating and I love the power of Mariko in this scene here she's not willing to give one inch and that moment where she says I am no peasant to be trotted on you know I just think that is so powerful as he's telling her this conversation is over

[00:28:09] and she goes this conversation is not over you know this is not you're not able to stamp what you want on me I am here at her and I request and I will leave exactly as I've been instructed by my lord fantastic really really good

[00:28:22] and will we go on to Bushida number three the culmination of this which is Mariko trying to leave Osaka yes absolutely Bushido three Mariko tries to leave Osaka with no permit and again

[00:28:38] well newly a newly installed rule from the she does after they're meeting the pre-state and you know it's just again it's just another layer of tension which I just thought was great you see the perseverance that's

[00:28:54] determination of Mariko but equally as this whole scene sort of between the two gates you know it's the classic castle design work with the archers on top where you see Mariko breaking down whether that again is part of this act

[00:29:12] you know to sell it as well as being part genuine you know it does both effectively we see the frustration where she is fighting back tears you know we must go back we are hostages you know

[00:29:25] and then informing everyone who's effectively watching from the bathroom yes I mean there's you know there's Lord Kiama there's Ono and there's Yabashirage there's John Blackstone even Lady is she but the watching this face off of the

[00:29:42] effectively yeah and because it's kind of none of them had the bravery to do this at all we heard them that the other leaders when Oshiba came in took over and as I'm working with

[00:29:52] Asido and we heard them all go we're now her prisoners yeah and not try to leave only one region tried to leave him and he was killed yeah and now the conversation as they arrived originally

[00:30:05] in Asaka and Blackstone was told that there are members of every high born house in all of Japan there are members of them in the walls of Asaka so nobody will attack Asaka

[00:30:16] and they're being kept prisoners so this is a moment where they're all watching on us Mariko a young woman challenging the rule of Asido who shouldn't be ruler but challenging the rule of Asido

[00:30:27] and even before that even before she makes her move to leave her son has been sent to her to plead with her to say you need to join up with the other Christian household I've been betrothed to the daughter the granddaughter of Kiama so we can make a strong Christian house household within within Asaka

[00:30:47] and if you try to leave I'll disown you and she still goes ahead and goes ahead with her plan but I do think that that moment where she doesn't fight through the guards that are there I do think that she breaks at that moment

[00:31:02] She has got the security of Taronaga's armed guard as she's leaving and they are all cut down leaving only a few members of Asido's private army

[00:31:12] and then more reinforcements are brought in and she still takes her Nagakasa her weapon to try and battle against them but that moment where they're almost unrubly playing with her it's not like there is not like they're not respecting her fighting ability but they're trying to make sure that she doesn't have any ability to actually battle against them they're stopping her weapon from getting near them in a way that she's she feels totally overwhelmed

[00:31:39] I think she takes one of them down maybe another but ultimately she's being held by the numbers it's her against effectively at least 10 or 12 soldiers here

[00:31:51] and as well as with archers on the battlements trying to scare her from going any further forward

[00:32:00] but I feel like she breaks down because she realizes at that moment the final power of Taronaga's plan must play out which is because of the dishonor to her lord she must take her own life

[00:32:13] it is a public expression of what she verbalized in court you know it's on display it's real to all those lords that are watching from the battlements

[00:32:24] that yes a lady Marico is not free to leave she is captive she is confined and so it's that public reality of that as well

[00:32:36] and I think you know that's the strong element here which I think you know as we get into bashoed her number four

[00:32:45] which is Marico must take her own life before sunset we have a number of different things playing out here were you know the regents are sat discussing this

[00:32:56] you know believing it to be a bluff and Taronaga's half brother is like this all seems over the top for you know really but it is lady Ashiba that says you know you are all very wrong

[00:33:11] it's her vengeance for the death of her father and we will all be shamed if for allowing her to die and there will be a revolt from every high family in a socket if that happens or we let her leave and the other hostages then will want to leave

[00:33:28] so you know this is the catch 22 now that has been handed to Ashido and that he's put himself in there

[00:33:37] absolutely that's something I just loved about the scene like we've mentioned that the puppeteer behind everything has been Ashiba since she arrived

[00:33:46] and she effectively allied herself with ishido and he then asks her for cancel and her cancel is I have no we are backed into a corner here

[00:33:57] or you are backed into a corner here I can walk away from this basically you're backed into a corner here you've put it in a situation where either she dies

[00:34:04] and they're revolt or she leaves and everybody else leaves so thanks very much and I'll walk away from it but she does take that opportunity as you mentioned earlier on

[00:34:13] she takes an opportunity to go and meet up with John Blackthorn under the guise of the air wants to meet up with John and meets up with Mariko

[00:34:21] to actually have that discussion between the two of them her which is loaded with direction from Ashiba to stop playing the games that she's playing

[00:34:32] yeah no absolutely I think this is really such an awesome piece of kind of drama you know

[00:34:41] later Chiba very much you know the games must stop you can't bring nobility to turn out as warmongering which is

[00:34:49] what she sees it has but there is this realization that they were friends and then Mariko was sent away

[00:35:00] lost she that still resonates with lady of Chiba yeah but it comes kind of full circle with Mariko saying you know only you can

[00:35:09] end the games you accuse me on and in that she's part of the game playing by setting a shield up against her and

[00:35:18] I get effectively getting engaged to him as we found out at the council meeting yeah at all these different elements are

[00:35:27] all game plays you know which has come to her head in a sack around this situation yeah and it's all sort of

[00:35:36] beautifully mastered I think yeah here just kind of enjoy this because I think it sets up then this

[00:35:45] Sepakum moment which is so so tense you know again I say a lot of stuff about death here the meaning

[00:35:52] of it that Mariko has with John back then but I think you know that final kind of play from lady

[00:35:59] Chiba that she shouldn't look to go through with this to take her own life and she says accepting death

[00:36:09] isn't surrender flowers are only flowers because they fall it's amazing how the words are so beautiful

[00:36:16] around something so horrendous you know yeah totally agree and there's just a little moment there

[00:36:22] with that conversation with the she but and Mariko and how she ends it's where she just turns around to

[00:36:28] John and says we need to go right now it's almost like let's not give a she but any

[00:36:34] opportunity here to push anything a different way to threaten you or something whatever it may be

[00:36:41] and the two of them have that discussion where John tries to ask her to not kill herself yeah to live on for him so that's

[00:36:51] it you know if it's if not for good reason all for your god can still living for me yes again it's all these kind of

[00:37:00] discussions around how why how mm-hmm it should she live or die in this moment you know absolutely and again

[00:37:10] another big part of Mariko's character comes in here she is Christian and one of the fundamental parts

[00:37:16] of the Christian faith is suicide is a sin and will send you to hell effectively one of the beliefs that's in the

[00:37:22] Christian faith so how can she put those two pieces together of her Japanese culture the the honor of

[00:37:30] Sepacune in the times that we're looking at here versus the idea that in the Christian faith all

[00:37:37] of her belief for her whole life is living a way that will get you into heaven and if she commits

[00:37:42] Sepacur takes her own life she goes to hell so interestingly they the way it's resolved is she reaches out

[00:37:50] to other Christian who knows that it's a sin the other Christian on the cancel or Keama and asks him to be her

[00:37:58] second so he will be the one that actually will actually strike the killing blow and she's being killed rather than

[00:38:04] yeah committing suicide and as we see the setup with all of her the closest people to Mariko in Osaka as

[00:38:13] set up for her Sepacune Keama doesn't even turn up again underlying what we heard earlier is almost

[00:38:21] like he's stepping up into his villain role in this episode what we heard earlier was he doesn't really

[00:38:26] care about the church it doesn't really carry back Christianity because about the money and so he's not going to be

[00:38:31] the second for Mariko even though he nodded Jess even though he nodded that he would be there so black

[00:38:36] or has to step in so it's almost like if he hadn't turned up and she had to stab herself without a second

[00:38:42] it would have been her killing herself.

[00:38:44] Absolutely absolutely.

[00:38:45] My understanding of the ritual itself is the reason why they take their head is because you've made

[00:38:50] the commitment to take your own life and having a second means you don't die in pain rather than

[00:38:56] rather than it being a part of the actual ritual of Sepacus you have a second so that you die without

[00:39:03] going through a lot of pain so he is almost forced her to take her own life knowing that it would

[00:39:08] send it to hell as a question so pretty brutal but John steps in to be her second in this scene and I have

[00:39:15] to say watching if I was going on away for a love story to end the first time watching it thinking

[00:39:21] that this is how Mariko would die and at the hands of John Blacksoran who has effectively declared his love

[00:39:29] or just a day beforehand.

[00:39:31] Well that's it, this whole scene was incredibly tense, incredibly emotional all the way through

[00:39:40] and this preparation of Mariko in front of Lady Shizu and Kiri, her son and other members of the court

[00:39:50] John there as well almost the humiliation of Lord Kiyama not showing up as well all really tense,

[00:39:59] very emotional and take him to the last moment I mean so well acted this whole scene from everyone

[00:40:08] you know and I did think it was going to happen until Shido breaks it with the permit that he gives to

[00:40:16] her but I can't. No but even as Shido it felt so contentious like he knows there's a plan here you know

[00:40:29] we have that previously from Miyabashige saying I know as Shido knows this is Taren Arger and you know

[00:40:36] he says a woman flouting the earth's welcome disgusting so he has no sympathy for her but he throws

[00:40:44] her to the permit he doesn't want again probably the political calculations of well if he doesn't

[00:40:51] then all the high families in Osaka will rise up against him because of what he's allowed to happen

[00:40:57] and in that calculation it's easier to let her leave and then maybe have all the others

[00:41:03] leave at the same time but it's at except that we know he's already taken on

[00:41:09] on the Shiga and taken his offer of that's the other thing I'm aligning with him and being of service to a Shido so

[00:41:16] at the minute he did that I was going oh has another plan behind this here so yeah so he deals with the bureaucracy

[00:41:22] deals with the permits to leave the city of Osaka which he just in state just put in the day before and so

[00:41:28] and so now he's drawn up the paperwork to do that so I guess washing his hands clean of whatever happens now to

[00:41:35] to the lady Mariko yeah exactly and so just the whole thing was so well done and how did you

[00:41:43] cut that tension but with the kiss exactly exactly Mariko and John Blackthorn actually sleep together

[00:41:51] so unlike earlier on in the season where I thought for some reason did they actually

[00:41:55] sleep together or not because of the the rules that they came up with the following day yeah

[00:42:00] obviously set together earlier on the season but they also slept together here and John staying in her room

[00:42:05] for the night as everybody celebrates the fact that Mariko has been able to effectively break this

[00:42:11] holds that Shido has had on a sack up so all the sudden everyone saying well can I get a permit

[00:42:16] exactly yeah exactly but shall we move on to our final

[00:42:20] number five explosive but she don't number five the Shinobi attack

[00:42:26] absolutely attack of the assassins the devils deal that Yabashige has given to a Shido or

[00:42:33] accepted or become a part of the Shido where you know he will offer his service and Shido wants

[00:42:39] one thing in return and that is ultimately to let the Shinobi attack assassins in

[00:42:46] and to Torinaga's quarters at Osaka castle so you know ultimately again we have the palace here

[00:42:56] Torinaga's palace within a sack under attack and after Yabashige lets in them through the side gate

[00:43:04] ultimate yeah and they work their way through the palace I loved Yabashige sort of opening the door

[00:43:13] and immediately having a knife to his throat just in case it wasn't him they were kind of getting prepared

[00:43:18] and then I loved just seeing the the assassin counting on his shoulder

[00:43:23] and then lessing in the second wave of assassins in the palace

[00:43:28] it took me while couple of couple of views to work out what I thought in my head that tapping on the

[00:43:33] shoulder of Yabashige was and I think anyway it's for them to hold Yabashige back long enough

[00:43:40] so the first wave of Shinobi can take out their first intended targets and then he can place himself in the room amongst

[00:43:47] the other of Taranaga's man said that they can't blame him they can't suspect him of being the one responsible

[00:43:52] I think that's it. I think so then let the second wave in

[00:43:56] yes so they look like they're going after the palace guards at least in the barracks where their rest are in the way

[00:44:02] exactly or Torinaga's the rest of Torinaga's cards yeah exactly

[00:44:05] but Yabashige isn't beyond reproach here the first thing he does is kills one of the guards that comes out

[00:44:10] to watch over the castle and people that are on night watch

[00:44:12] night watch and yeah so he makes him drink and then kills him

[00:44:17] so it's not like his hands are clean blood here so absolutely not

[00:44:21] absolutely not I mean this is all parts of the plan

[00:44:24] but then he's been sort of hidden within the chaos

[00:44:28] I mean he's actually trying to bring them out into the main courtyard in the end

[00:44:33] they say no they look to go to a storehouse because it's got a heavy door attached to it

[00:44:43] so it looks like Yabashige in a sense has failed in his part of the plan

[00:44:47] which would be get them out through the courtyard maybe the front gates were then it's all open

[00:44:52] and they can be cut down instead it's they look to go and barricade themselves

[00:44:57] in the storehouse because that has the heaviest door inside the power skates

[00:45:06] so they kind of work their way through having to deal with the sassons as they're attacking them

[00:45:13] John Blackthorn using his pistol so I like that and I like the use of them

[00:45:17] with the club end as well yes just his move of shooting a hole

[00:45:23] through one of the walls grabbing the guy and then shooting him in the head

[00:45:27] through the top of the wall while he's holding him as a fascinating move

[00:45:31] they're also muskets so he has to reload them after every shot or every two shots

[00:45:35] which is really interesting and I would presume again I haven't read the book

[00:45:38] I'm sorry it still happened still haven't gotten up there

[00:45:40] but in the book I do understand that what John Blackthorn brought to the Japanese

[00:45:45] is the use of muskets in the book and then that's corrected for the show

[00:45:48] because the Japanese had guns available to them for 50 years before

[00:45:52] this all took place so in the TV show it's the cannons

[00:45:57] the John's the way to use the cannons as much John's brought to them

[00:46:01] so I suppose it would be a big payoff I would guess in the book if you know

[00:46:05] that John has brought the guns to Japan and here in the end he's battling

[00:46:09] everybody with guns while they're all using swords so I could understand why

[00:46:13] it would be slightly different to the book I suppose it's kind of like a culmination

[00:46:16] of what you know about Blackthorn but here he is absolutely defending

[00:46:21] and fighting everybody off a rent Mariko you know we talked about it a couple of times

[00:46:26] throughout the series here that John Blackthorn isn't the central character of the show

[00:46:30] it is a three-hander here with Mariko Tornaga and John Blackthorn plus all the other wider cast

[00:46:36] but he is playing a pivotal role in this scene

[00:46:40] if he wasn't there Mariko absolutely could have been cut ten earlier than that

[00:46:44] he is proper defender to her here gets her into the storehouse with the

[00:46:50] heavy doors is shating for Yabashi to help him block the doors so that the

[00:46:55] Shinobi can't come in and kill them all and Yabashi gets sits back looking

[00:47:02] with a scared look on his face not helping John Blackthorn as he sheds

[00:47:07] for that help before Mariko makes her final move

[00:47:10] well and you hear that they're going to blow the doors open with a can

[00:47:15] so and this is where then Mariko gives her life

[00:47:22] and by pushing herself up against the door as then the cannon is fired into the door

[00:47:30] fade to black yes yes they're like really really shocking I mean I don't expect

[00:47:36] that she has survived that at all no and I mean it's coming off the back of

[00:47:43] the near point of Sepico from her and you kind of thought okay she's safe

[00:47:50] and then you know to slow down the Shinobi to sort of do her duty to her Lord

[00:47:58] but also I'm guessing with her own thoughts of what she's been wanting

[00:48:03] to do like we saw at the start of the episode it kind of reflects that really

[00:48:09] in this moment she finds an opportunity to end her life honorably and

[00:48:14] judifully by using herself as a barricade for the door before it's blown

[00:48:19] in here you know so as I say it's just that mirroring of what happens at the

[00:48:24] start you know she sees this opportunity to end her in life yes but also

[00:48:30] and very clearly her final words are calling out what a Shido has done here

[00:48:35] she's calling out who she is and that it is a Shido behind the Shinobi attack

[00:48:40] to the people that are around including John and to the other handmaidens

[00:48:43] and and to her and Aga's wife so she's being really clear that it's not her

[00:48:48] taking her own life she is sacrificing herself to save those inside

[00:48:51] and it is a Shido behind it all absolutely or what an episode and what

[00:48:58] absolutely amazing crazy in yeah like really really emotional yeah

[00:49:04] and I wonder you know as we had mentioned at the beginning of the episode

[00:49:08] about you know people's expectation from the show hearing the term Crimson

[00:49:11] Sky which had been described earlier on in the season as an all-acious salt on

[00:49:15] Osaka everybody joining up together a turn again is an entire armed forces

[00:49:20] having a one-out assault on a sack of castle and here that all-out assault

[00:49:25] is played out through Mariko and her words to the Shido in the castle

[00:49:31] that is the Crimson Sky that they have enacted effectively so I wonder what

[00:49:35] the expectation again when people were coming in knowing that's the name of the

[00:49:39] episode expecting an all-out battle expecting you know all the riders to go in

[00:49:43] and save Mariko before she dies in this all-out war between a turn Aga and the

[00:49:49] residents I guess inside a side of Osaka castle and that doesn't happen

[00:49:52] this is a really personal private story of the journey that Mariko has taken

[00:49:56] through the series really and how it all ends yeah no absolutely yeah

[00:50:01] anything else you want to talk about from the episode John no nothing from me

[00:50:06] how about yourself Derek any notes from this episode just the only thing

[00:50:11] that we just tend not to mention very often as the priests you know we talked

[00:50:15] about Father Martin but there is a conversation between all of them as

[00:50:19] John is arriving into the city as as the engine is arriving in the city where they

[00:50:23] still suspect that he is central to the plan and they even call out war is coming

[00:50:28] effectively so they think the arrival of the engine is the signifier that war

[00:50:33] is coming when actually it's nothing to do with that and they mention to to

[00:50:37] Father Martin that they do see Mariko coming in as well your friend is coming

[00:50:41] in you know but I just wanted to I suppose call the mate that they are still

[00:50:46] watching and what's full of the engine who could bring down their whole

[00:50:50] connection between the between Japan and Portugal so just thought it was quite

[00:50:57] interesting but also John's line when he's looking out at the deliveries

[00:51:02] coming in on the black ship he sees the black ship and port and calls out

[00:51:05] that here they are coming in with their cheap silks to get your Japanese silver

[00:51:10] for a very cheap price yeah calling out once again that he's watching what

[00:51:14] the Portuguese are doing and nobody seems to be every since we let him away

[00:51:17] with it so and so just an interesting one this episode was absolutely about

[00:51:22] Mariko absolutely about that with those political machinations that are going on

[00:51:26] how they play off against each other but just those little moments in the background

[00:51:30] with the Portuguese were interesting great stuff John overall what's your final

[00:51:34] thoughts on Shogun chapter 9 critons and sky I absolutely love this episode

[00:51:39] I'll give it five you've only gone and blown the bloody doors off out of five

[00:51:44] and I know but I just thought this was hugely emotional

[00:51:50] and tense emotionally tense I think everyone here just really conveyed that

[00:51:58] as I say it was as taught as a violin string all the way through this and yet

[00:52:04] no such big or outbathel you know very much about political maneuvering

[00:52:12] your opponent into a corner to possibly bring about you know the war

[00:52:20] and so many great scenes between Mariko here

[00:52:28] and Shido at court with lady achiever where they kind of reconnect against

[00:52:35] Shido's troops as she tries to leave and then with the attempted

[00:52:42] Sepaku until a Shido comes in with the permit and I just thought it was

[00:52:48] absolutely fantastic I mean each one of the actors here in particular Anna

[00:52:54] so I you know as Mariko just so so good so yeah just a heartbreaking moment

[00:53:01] where she's overwhelmed by Shido's men and falls to the ground going

[00:53:06] I can't fight back against these men it's just really touching it's a

[00:53:11] episode to watch and she is so good in the absolute but so many other actors

[00:53:17] are within within the show they're really really strong cast definitely

[00:53:21] excellent stuff excellent stuff jump we have about a feedback in front of

[00:53:24] our warriors on chapter eight of the show excellent stuff first off over

[00:53:30] on YouTube just a quick one in response to last week's review the one that

[00:53:33] we got that we got a lovely five star review at this is said you are the best

[00:53:37] show gun podcast thank you very sweet list to say that thank you very much

[00:53:41] thank you very much it's always always nice to your compliments and we don't take

[00:53:44] compliments well so it is nice to get that lovely thank you so much listen

[00:53:48] over on email we got some feedback from Julian who goes hi guys Julian from

[00:53:54] Texas here I just want to start off and say I enjoy your show gun conversations

[00:53:58] very much thanks for bringing the quality content with that said I'm writing

[00:54:03] into pushback some of your takes from episode eight and some feedback from an

[00:54:07] email you read from episode seven you guys said you believe there was

[00:54:11] definitely an off screen conversation between Hiramatsu and Tarnaga regarding

[00:54:16] the termatsu committing sepaku I wholeheartedly believe it is the total opposite

[00:54:21] I think Hiramatsu knew full well that for the council to actually believe

[00:54:25] Tarnaga's intention to surrender it would take something of such seriousness

[00:54:29] that it wouldn't leave any space for doubt they both knew something needed

[00:54:34] to be done and when Tarnaga's other generals started threatening Sepaku

[00:54:38] Hiramatsu read the room and had to act because their army couldn't stand to lose

[00:54:43] all generals at once you could read it on Tarnaga's face that he absolutely

[00:54:48] was devastated by what was happening in front of him but you could sort of see

[00:54:53] they were communicating without words I don't believe that Tarnaga would

[00:54:57] ever ask him to commit to commit sepaku even though he knew he would do it

[00:55:02] if they had spoken about it prior to this point then I don't think Tarnaga's

[00:55:06] quivering face and his hellback tears would have been as prominent as they were

[00:55:10] since he would have been emotionally prepared and probably would have put on a straight face

[00:55:15] because that's who he is outside of this eightfold fence

[00:55:19] I think the whole situation hits harder this way

[00:55:23] Exsonsoft Julian and Janelle I actually would agree with you

[00:55:26] I can see that yeah I think maybe the conversation

[00:55:30] possibly not so much about sepaku and would about the ultimate goal

[00:55:35] and aim you know this Hiramatsu was the closest advisor

[00:55:39] so I totally get your point here and actually that communication

[00:55:45] without words probably most important so I totally think you've actually nailed it

[00:55:50] here it probably is that as they I just think it was so shocking

[00:55:56] that it must have been part of the plan but I guess with your feedback

[00:56:02] it's part of the plan in the sense that they know the ultimate goal of what's being it

[00:56:08] attempted yeah I think I think part of it was because of Tarnaga's

[00:56:12] conversation with medical at the end where he says that Hiramatsu knew his place

[00:56:16] he knew what he had to do but I think to your point Julian

[00:56:21] it's a great point I think Hiramatsu knew his duty regardless of whether

[00:56:26] you had a conversation with Tarnaga or not even if there was no conversation

[00:56:29] between the two Hiramatsu knew this is what he had to do in this moment

[00:56:33] to ensure the success of Tarnaga's plan

[00:56:38] he was that dedicated to him he knew Tarnaga for all his life right from his first battle

[00:56:42] from back when he was 13 years old so he not only is the trusted person at his side

[00:56:48] he knows exactly what to do in every moment to ensure the success of his Lord Tarnaga

[00:56:53] so that's a really good suggestion that the men out of had an eye conversation

[00:56:57] but all of their life lived together means Hiramatsu knows exactly what he should be doing

[00:57:03] yeah but if he's not being asked to do it specifically

[00:57:06] absolutely great point yeah Julian continues and about last week's feedback

[00:57:10] I listen to Roten saying that Buntaro is simply just a classic abuser

[00:57:13] and he does not love Mariko and you seem to agree with this take

[00:57:17] while I'm not saying Buntaro isn't an abuser because he most definitely is

[00:57:21] but the showrunner said Buntaro undeniably very much loves Mariko

[00:57:25] I don't want to say more on that because I don't want to be misconstrued as being apologetic towards abuse

[00:57:31] but according to Justin Marx there is more to it than that

[00:57:34] if you go back and listen to the first five minutes of the official showrun podcast for episode 5

[00:57:39] broken to the fist you can hear them speak on the matter

[00:57:43] keep up the great work guys and I'll be listening next week Julian

[00:57:47] thanks so much Julian I think my only point around Buntaro is

[00:57:52] I have a feeling given the size of the book there's a lot of stuff that is concentrated around Buntaro

[00:58:00] maybe a condensed or just they can only go with certain threads

[00:58:08] maybe maybe just the writing around certain events as well

[00:58:12] just how it's done it's difficult to know I think we also have to remember

[00:58:18] it's 16th century Japan not only different culture but different time and different perspectives

[00:58:25] however good or bad they are I think it is a difficult topic to have

[00:58:33] and I think it might be more I think what I was trying to say last week is that Buntaro probably believes he loves her

[00:58:41] yeah I think the two things aren't mutually exclusive that Buntaro thinks he loves her

[00:58:46] but our point last week what we were talking about was he doesn't know what little fantasy is treating his wife like this

[00:58:53] he is an abuser interestingly actually Julian the original piece of feedback we got him was actually

[00:58:59] quoting Justin Marx on the official showrun podcast back in episode 5

[00:59:03] we've actually talked about this quite a few times over the course of our discussions on Chogun

[00:59:07] there's been lots of these talks about whether Buntaro loves his wife or not

[00:59:13] he doesn't show that he loves her treats her really badly and the scene that we saw in last week's episode

[00:59:18] where the tea that he tries to make for the ceremony that he tries to do for a Maricot tells him

[00:59:25] she has never loved him it's probably the important story that they're pulling out of Chogun

[00:59:31] whether Buntaro does think that they were ever in love or that he loves her doesn't really matter

[00:59:36] because Maricot has to put up with him for as long as she has over the years and she's the one that push back

[00:59:43] it's not really true yeah I certainly wouldn't want to criticize what Justin Marx was saying

[00:59:49] this is his show he'd one of the showrunners on the show he has his opinion about what James Clavel was trying to get across

[00:59:55] and his has an opinion of what he was trying to get across in the show but there are a number of other writers

[00:59:59] in the show the way I certainly take it here is that Maricot and Buntaro were not supposed to be together

[01:00:05] whether she likes Simranas or Loves Simranas or whether he loves her or not

[01:00:09] to me that doesn't really matter he's come across as an abuser he's hit her multiple times

[01:00:14] he's treated her absolutely a bar and feature at the series that's what I've seen so

[01:00:19] so whether that was the intention of Justin Marx or not it just didn't come across in the show

[01:00:24] like we said last week Buntaro is just that difficult, difficult character

[01:00:31] and you know if you just look at it at high level history it's that you know faithful servant to his law

[01:00:38] at a personal level completely different either just it's you know I mean even last week

[01:00:45] you know he lost his father his wife effectively and really has been sidelined by Toren Aguert to some degree

[01:00:55] in the episode and you're kind of like going maybe that makes the realization at a personal level

[01:01:03] no matter how much of a good warrior and fighter he hits or a good shot with a bow and arrow

[01:01:09] absolutely and the great thing of this show is that no character is just anything

[01:01:14] everybody's something really complex and yeah I've worked in gray areas and black and white areas

[01:01:19] so you know Buntaro is a person that fossil fights fights alongside his lord

[01:01:25] and is massively competent to that role so there's lots of interesting things about every character in the show

[01:01:31] nobody's just anything it is it's really interesting because even in this episode

[01:01:36] you have John Blackthorn sort of castigating Toren Aguert for using a woman to sort of fulfill his plan

[01:01:44] of putting a woman in danger like Mariko so it I guess it's just really like every

[01:01:51] you know the complexity around these lives are really just that or complex but it's great stuff

[01:02:00] thanks Julian for the feedback really good thing

[01:02:04] yeah I would say you're probably bang on with your theory around Hiro Mats

[01:02:10] yeah absolutely just in cross my mind yeah no it didn't actually I was a kind of led a bit by that conversation

[01:02:16] with Mariko but good stuff thanks Julian

[01:02:19] thanks Julian also already met Frankus Anthony Vellan to us she says hi Derek and John

[01:02:24] I am enjoying your show gun podcast listening religiously each week after I watch each episode

[01:02:29] I read the book back in the 80s and was totally enthralled by it at the time since it was my first fictional historical novel

[01:02:35] when the mini series came out with Richard Chamberlain I was a dedicated viewer back when we couldn't record TV shows

[01:02:41] so you had to make sure you're in front of the TV each night for those five episodes

[01:02:45] I do want to pay tribute to Richard Chamberlain who played the John Blackthorn character he passed away in March this year

[01:02:50] at the age of 90 he drew many fans to watch the series since at the time he was a bit of a heart throb

[01:02:55] I'm glad I do not remember the storyline since I read the book over 40 years ago

[01:02:59] so when I watch the current series I bet the edge of my seat to see how Taronaga will survive the political schemes

[01:03:05] if Blackthorn is able to leave the Japan's and how Mariko will resolve her family shame and attraction to Blackthorn

[01:03:12] after the series is finished I plan to read the book again as I'm curious how closely they follow the storyline

[01:03:17] but also to immerse myself back into the world James Clevel built

[01:03:22] thanks for sharing the love Frank

[01:03:24] excellent stuff thank you Frank for listening it's great to hear from you again Frank

[01:03:29] I have a trophy in a while and then on our feedback

[01:03:31] I know we put a podcast very quickly so sometimes it's difficult to get your feedback into it

[01:03:35] yeah exactly for episodes but great to hear from you

[01:03:38] and you're right actually Richard Chamberlain was a bit of a heart throb back in March of the day

[01:03:43] remember my mum having sort of feelings for him you know I think in fact I don't really remember watching the 80s

[01:03:51] and many series of this but I remember being on I just don't think I followed it in a sense

[01:03:58] he was the one two points for Richard Chamberlain of the Thornbirds and Shogun

[01:04:03] those were two big shows that he had in the 80s which every mother I knew was watching

[01:04:08] so we all heard about them so yes he was a massive heart throb of the 80s

[01:04:12] so thanks very much for that Frank a well timed tribute to his portrayal

[01:04:17] yeah absolutely unlike say I really do want to sort of get into the world and of the book

[01:04:24] as well just to see you know books just again different museum brings different things

[01:04:30] yeah and see how it holds up or how it connects in with the show

[01:04:35] absolutely absolutely interesting we got some feedback over on Facebook from Jamie Lotton

[01:04:39] next who says totally awesome the story has diverged from the novel a bit but still spellbinding and spectacular

[01:04:45] actually moves the story along a bit faster and unexpected twists from as I said before

[01:04:50] Asaga well known to make it a real edge of the seat viewing and exciting

[01:04:54] I love that it explores the other minor character back stories a bit more than the original

[01:04:58] and shifts attention away from Black Thorn and focus is on a bit more of the rest of the stellar cast

[01:05:03] so that's interesting that's the connection to the book and how the show has been changing the story

[01:05:10] so that it's not just focused on Black Thorn story which I know the book did focus on other characters

[01:05:15] as well you did get to learn more about the other characters but yeah there just seem to be some changes from the book

[01:05:20] to broadenate the story and broaden out the tale here

[01:05:23] but that's it I mean it is these three main characters as you say

[01:05:26] but to me it's also just so much broader than that because they're placed within all these supporting characters

[01:05:34] you have a shigae, shino, a cheeber, an army and a tornado like a song, Nagakata

[01:05:42] you know all of them are just so well done here in Matsu

[01:05:47] and I find it's just that yes Black Thorn, Mariko, a tornado like all these main star and cast

[01:05:58] and how it comes off in the credits but it just feel like an ensemble

[01:06:03] it really does and I really really enjoy it for that

[01:06:06] absolutely

[01:06:07] yeah good stuff thanks Jamie

[01:06:09] Dr. Bob Phillips says breathless this had as many powerful scenes as most shows have an entire season

[01:06:16] every drop of hearts blood wrong from us in the ultimate ploy the perfect tea party

[01:06:23] the palliation and passing of the old queen mother the wake and the recanting of European supremacy was done with such beauty

[01:06:31] and precision this is a masterpiece

[01:06:34] what a brilliant word for the show so far

[01:06:37] and that was episode eight I can't wait to hear your thoughts on episode nine Dr. Bob

[01:06:41] the show has just had so many amazing moments

[01:06:45] by any episode let alone in the series overall or seasons

[01:06:50] you know we early on talked about things like Game of Thrones which will have a denurement at the end of the season after

[01:06:57] a separate episode that have this massive moment at the end of the season and that just feels like we're getting

[01:07:03] at least dramatically we're getting those kind of big moments in each episode

[01:07:08] it is but it's intimate big dramatic moments

[01:07:12] and I think that's really comes about in this episode and I think like with the wake of Naka Kada last week

[01:07:21] you know it's those little moments it's the expressions on the face and it's just done so well here

[01:07:27] in terms of the actors the writing the director what they're picking up on again similarly here

[01:07:36] in the episode this week I just find the intimacy of it really really dramatic

[01:07:43] and I've not had that in a long time because a lot of the time you go we want the big action piece

[01:07:50] I'm happy not to have that here because everything it's an action piece with words

[01:07:57] like because you're digging for that meaning behind it the threat, the warning, whatever it might be

[01:08:04] you know and just so so good yeah thanks so much Dr Bob absolutely thanks Dr Bob

[01:08:09] and we have a final bit of feedback on the wire from Hathemoto Von Doom who says

[01:08:17] yo warriors not much of a reunion for John Blackthorn and crew I see Maricomator feelings clearly known to

[01:08:24] Buntaro do should have done better from the start I laughed out loud when the Portuguese monk saw his church

[01:08:31] was to be next door to a brothel the ordeal of Hiramatsu's sepaku to Toranaga was quite tragic

[01:08:39] it also further screwed up Buntaro I'm very curious about Maricom's mission in Asaka

[01:08:45] will it shake John Blackthorn from his deal with the Abishiki

[01:08:49] Toranaga better pull a rabbit out of his hat after all of this perhaps a secret involving his half-brother

[01:08:56] don't lose your head Sianara Hathemoto Von Doom

[01:09:00] thank you so much Hathemoto Von Doom for the feedback and yet certainly I think Buntaro really got the pointy end of everyone here

[01:09:10] and I think you're right you know that rabbit out of the hat but from Toranaga be interesting to see what it is

[01:09:19] and how that links to Maricom or indeed his half-brother because it's a great theory that we've gotten through as well

[01:09:26] about the half-brother possibly being sort of the Trojan horse really

[01:09:31] but potentially that's a really interesting idea is not I wonder if this Crimson Sky plan that Maricom has now carried out effectively in Asaka

[01:09:39] is the plan for Toranaga to maybe able to just walk into Asaka and the stranglehold that as she does had on it is now gone

[01:09:46] so I mean yeah absolutely I do feel there's still got to be Warfare

[01:09:53] whether it's fully shown in one episode probably that's not going to happen you know that campaign but at least I think

[01:10:00] there has to be some kind of Warfare or meeting on the battleground but whether

[01:10:07] you know it's quite as lopsided as we think it is because at the moment it's Toranaga really has a depleted force

[01:10:17] so I have to see yeah absolutely absolutely great stuff thanks Victor yeah thanks Victor

[01:10:22] and thanks everybody for your feedback keep sending it into us to feedback at TV podcast industries.com

[01:10:27] or if you want to join us on our Facebook group you can join us at facebook.com slash groups slash TV podcast

[01:10:32] industry where there's a spoiler post up there for each of the episodes as we discuss them but there's only one word to go down.

[01:10:37] I know you know it's interesting the my suppose the central purpose of this episode was Maricom trying to break the control that

[01:10:45] Asido had on Asaka and while of course the end is really tragic and what happened to Maricom before that he had signed the forums

[01:10:53] allowing her to leave the city had given up effectively on this holding of the prisoners so what's left to happen in the final episode

[01:11:01] next week you know the other prisoners were also asking for for their leave and he told them submit the forums and you can go as well.

[01:11:11] So has he lost control completely now in Asaka can Toranaga walk back in to the city and take it over it could be interesting to see how they play it.

[01:11:18] Yeah absolutely I feel it's the foundations of Asido are possibly have been worn away from this

[01:11:28] whether it's the other regions whether it's lady sheba I don't know what I think it's that his power base built up of the allies not just the walls of Asaka castle is the allies have possibly a different view of him now.

[01:11:47] Absolutely absolutely I guess we'll see next Tuesday when the next episode and final episode of Shogun chapter 10 a dream of a dream comes out will be back talk about that on our main feed on TV podcast industries and of course on the Shogun on TV podcast industries podcast thanks so much for joining us we'll talk to you again next time yeah absolutely great chatting all things around Shogun with you fellow worries until next week though keep watching and of course keep listening bye.

[01:12:17] you