Shogun Chapter 10 Podcast

[00:00:00] This is the Shogun Podcast on TV Podcast Industries and we're talking about the Shogun finale chapter 10 a dream of a dream

[00:00:09] The arstages are free. Got just what he wanted

[00:00:15] No dirty hands no war

[00:00:22] Just a woman

[00:00:25] She can't have heard me before

[00:00:34] Before she died I spoke before God not your God. Oh my God

[00:00:45] Just God

[00:00:48] You

[00:00:53] Think it was acceptable rest assured she was already sanctified

[00:00:59] Before her death she came to me and received absolution

[00:01:08] I think it would have pleased her to see us being civil

[00:01:18] You

[00:01:32] Welcome back fellow warriors to the Shogun podcast on TV podcast industries

[00:01:37] We are on the finale of

[00:01:40] Shogun chapter 10 a dream of a dream. I am one of your hosts John

[00:01:45] I'm your other host Derek welcome back fellow warriors. Yeah, the final time on Shogun

[00:01:51] I know yeah, I think we can now on 100 million percent say there isn't going to be a second season of Shogun

[00:01:58] Can I don't think so? Yeah, I mean there are other books technically

[00:02:03] within the series and

[00:02:05] At different points in time as well not as such immediately after yeah

[00:02:10] So unless there is something around those novels that possibly

[00:02:18] There is an input us towards

[00:02:21] Sort of

[00:02:23] Adapting really for TV. Yeah, I don't know but ultimately this is a self-contained

[00:02:29] Show yeah of a single

[00:02:32] Series and this is certainly the end of the story for John Blackthorne and for Tarnaga and for medical

[00:02:37] We were the three main characters of course of the show as you know, you've been watching the show

[00:02:41] You know that but that is the end of their story. There's anything else in the further books

[00:02:45] That's connected to these three characters absolutely and also interesting choice. I mean this is very much an epilogue

[00:02:52] It is not really

[00:02:55] The big finale. This is an epilogue of rounding up

[00:03:00] Where people are yeah after and the events of the previous chapter

[00:03:06] It is isn't and was thinking about it

[00:03:08] I don't know we've made our Game of Thrones comparisons a few times throughout the series and you know

[00:03:12] It's not comparable to Game of Thrones because Game of Thrones is an ongoing series went on for eight seasons

[00:03:17] But traditionally this is how Game of Thrones would end their seasons

[00:03:21] They would have a big battle

[00:03:23] Moment or a massive moment in the second last episode in the last episode wraps things up and sets things up for the next season

[00:03:29] The big difference here with Chogan is there's nothing to set up for the next season here

[00:03:33] So it is wrapping up the stories of all of the characters and the impacts that the last episode chapter nine has on all of those characters

[00:03:40] Yeah

[00:03:40] Being a little bit coy just to make sure we are gonna talk full spoilers on the finale of show gun in this in this podcast

[00:03:46] So make sure you go in watch the episode before listening to the podcast

[00:03:50] Don't spoil anything before you do that

[00:03:52] So when you've watched it come back and listen to the rest of the podcast absolutely and whilst you're away

[00:03:58] Why don't you subscribe to the podcast over at TV podcast industries calm where you can subscribe to any good or evil

[00:04:05] Podcasts player of your choice. You can also join us on Facebook over on our group at Facebook calm forward slash groups

[00:04:14] forward slash TV podcast industries and of course

[00:04:17] We are covering the end of the Star Wars the bad bat

[00:04:21] We are at the moment

[00:04:22] Yeah, so you can join us there and we have just finished the second season of invincible as well

[00:04:29] So we have a fair bit of content still flying around including this final podcast on show gun

[00:04:36] Absolutely, and this episode is called a dream of a dream and interestingly the next show that we're gonna be covering is the dead boy

[00:04:42] Detectives set in the world of the Sandman or dream over on Netflix. So that's quite interesting

[00:04:49] So if you want to hear our thoughts on the Sandman show

[00:04:52] We do have a Sandman podcast or Sandman feed and obviously our shows always come out on the main feed on TV podcast industries

[00:04:59] But the dead boy detectives comes out on Netflix all episodes coming out in one day

[00:05:02] So we're not gonna cover the whole thing in one day

[00:05:05] And we are hoping to put a couple of couple of podcasts to cover the full season

[00:05:08] So get watching that when it comes out in Netflix from next Thursday

[00:05:11] Absolutely and coming up on May the 4th be with you

[00:05:15] It is tales of the Empire which we'll be covering as well

[00:05:19] So there's some of our up and coming shows that we'll be covering as well

[00:05:23] But let us get into our spoiler filled discussion of Shogun chapter 10 a dream of a dream

[00:05:31] Derek what are some of the episode details?

[00:05:34] Yes for the final time this show was of course based on James Clavel's

[00:05:39] 1975 novel Shogun the head writers for the show are Rachel Condo and Justin Marks

[00:05:43] This episode was written by Megan who I and Emily Yoshida

[00:05:47] Megan as a staff writer on the series and wrote episode 6 and Emily's the host of the official Shogun podcast

[00:05:52] And was one of the credit advisors on episode 4

[00:05:55] Lovely stuff. Yeah, definitely highly recommend checking out the the Shogun podcast absolutely

[00:06:01] It's like it's like an interview podcast with the cast. It's like behind-the-scenes kind of

[00:06:05] It is really and it's really good. It's really interesting

[00:06:08] They've got pretty much everybody from the costume designers through to all the cast and directors of the episodes given their

[00:06:15] thoughts on the show and sometimes interestingly again, they're obviously recorded ages ago wait before the show came out

[00:06:20] So sometimes they may kind of give you an inkling of things that are coming up

[00:06:24] So there's some things that are on there on the episode 9 podcast that actually happened at episode 10

[00:06:28] So and but it's interesting to see you know how your perspective can change in an episode when you hear how the

[00:06:33] Actor approach the part like I think so Emily did a great job posting that podcast

[00:06:38] Yeah, hoping to see more from her in the future the episode once again directed by Fredrick Toy who we talked about multiple times

[00:06:44] We spent it we talked about him last week as the also the director of episode 9 and

[00:06:49] Director of of fallage which is out of the moment on there on prime video where you directed I think three episodes of that

[00:06:54] Yes, so yeah John do you want to tell us what they gave us with the synopsis for

[00:06:59] Shogun chapter 10 a dream of a dream

[00:07:02] Sure in the wake of the tragic death of Mariko John Blackthorne

[00:07:07] Finally considers the true nature of Torin Aga's plan. Yes, so a true epilogue

[00:07:13] As we mentioned earlier on now the episode opening with John Blackthorne in the future and his grandkids running around

[00:07:19] Yeah, your grandkids. Yeah, but they're running around his room

[00:07:22] Which looks like a museum to his time in Japan and all of the items and all of the other things he picked up in

[00:07:28] His time there. So I really like that. It's got that interesting one with the with the kids kind of going

[00:07:33] Is this really is this really our grandfather?

[00:07:36] Did he really use a samurai sword at one point in his life, you know and back in England as well and

[00:07:42] Yeah, in a kind of you know

[00:07:45] Tweed chewed a kind of place interesting. Yeah, but the kids do call out that the

[00:07:50] Sword that he's that he used was effectively in the battle where he saved

[00:07:54] Madako because he says he took on some shinobi who came into this and came into the building

[00:07:59] So they just they just mentioned that so I think that's quite interesting seeing him on his death bed at the start of the episode

[00:08:04] Because again, it's almost like it's setting you up that you're not going to be expecting the death of John Blackthorne throughout this episode

[00:08:11] Right, she sets you up straight away. Here he is in his old age on his death bed remembering back to exactly

[00:08:18] It's all almost kind of a fever dream because he doesn't look particularly well for sure

[00:08:23] I think as well, you know, it's an interesting choice to do an epilogue because I think you know

[00:08:29] I think it can just deviate opinion really

[00:08:32] I mean it wraps everyone's story up in a nice neat little bow which is great, but it also you know and

[00:08:39] I guess there are people that expect the big play out to happen

[00:08:45] But it really plays out in terms of

[00:08:49] Conversation yes and predictions so you don't actually see it. So it's a really interesting choice and I reckon it could be

[00:08:58] A bit more mighty for certain viewers for sure

[00:09:01] Yeah, if you're not from the UK my mighty means you that I would love it or hate it

[00:09:04] Yes, sir

[00:09:06] Just in case it's the case, you know, you don't know that and yeah, I agree

[00:09:10] I really really enjoyed it

[00:09:11] I thought it was a great way to wrap it up and made it feel more like a novel

[00:09:15] Being brought to the screen more like those epic stories that we used to see on TV back in the 18 and

[00:09:21] Even from 70s TV shows where it is about wrapping up the storyline not about giving action to an action-oriented audience

[00:09:28] But I do expect there's gonna be a lot of people watching

[00:09:32] Expecting that there is going to be this massive battle for a sake

[00:09:36] Which is referenced in the episode. Well, I mean, I think it does benefit from the fact that it does

[00:09:42] Reference actual history here. Yes, it's novelized and it's the certain aspects obviously it's not following history

[00:09:51] It's not historical book

[00:09:53] but it has the benefit of the touch points that it is following the history of that period

[00:10:02] Just with different names, you know, it's a novelization of history

[00:10:06] Yeah, I think you know in a sense that helps

[00:10:12] Solidify the predictions being made. Yes. Yeah by some of the key characters even though we don't fully see it play out

[00:10:21] Yeah, it feels like they're expecting you to Google it at the end of the episode

[00:10:25] Just go and look up what happened in Japan in the 1600s and you'll see what happened

[00:10:29] Into these into these characters and because I would have expected like a placard at the end going and Lord Taranaga

[00:10:35] Became show-gun or something like that or whatever happened to John Blackthorn or you know, you'd expect something

[00:10:41] I was expecting that at the end as well a bit of kind of smaller writing giving sort of the history

[00:10:48] But we don't get that and I think you know again, it's a choice of the showrunners here

[00:10:53] Exactly, but let us get into our Bushido's and Bushido number one

[00:10:58] We go to a sake to see the fallout of the death of Mariko here. Yeah, and we actually

[00:11:07] pick it up with

[00:11:09] The immediate aftermath of Mariko's death and I think interestingly for me, you know

[00:11:15] Yeah, but she actually says forgive me and I think that's because we actually have a conversation

[00:11:20] In between podcasts wondering, you know, were the shinobi assassins the

[00:11:25] To kill Mariko or simply to arrest her. Yeah, or take her hostage or prisoner. Yeah, really and

[00:11:34] Rather than killing us. So yeah, it's one of those interesting ones. I talked about the official show gun podcast

[00:11:38] This was one thing that came out on the official podcast where they said yeah

[00:11:42] But she can never expected the death of Mariko

[00:11:45] He expected that he was letting the shinobi in to kidnap her because the death of her would cause a massive incident

[00:11:53] She's a very important figure in Osaka. She's a very well-known figure

[00:11:56] So he was expecting that she would get out out of this alive and but she would be taken and so

[00:12:03] His expression of regret here is asking for forgiveness here

[00:12:08] Is the shock of what's happened to Mariko really? Yeah, I actually thought we were sick going see the breakdown a bit

[00:12:14] Of Yabashige. I don't think so. I think it's just the immediate after after effects of

[00:12:20] The the weight of what's happened here because we do see a shido meeting Yabashige

[00:12:26] And saying your seat on the council is secured now

[00:12:30] Yeah, go back to Izu and await your command because we have the council of regents

[00:12:36] effectively being pushed by a shido to

[00:12:40] Declare war and to prepare for war. Yeah, but you do see

[00:12:44] the regret and of

[00:12:47] Yabashige and I think you do. Yeah, you see almost like shell shock

[00:12:51] It's that that moment is a direct after effect

[00:12:53] You know if she does wondering if it's just that his ears are still ringing from the explosion

[00:12:58] But it's much more than that. It feels like Yabashige is really highly affected at this

[00:13:02] But as you say it's following on from the council meeting

[00:13:05] I think the council meeting itself is probably the most interesting part of what's happening in Osaka

[00:13:10] Where we have each of the each of the council of regents reacting to the death of of

[00:13:16] Mariko yeah, I'm Kiana saying

[00:13:19] Everything here was tragic and completely avoidable if we hadn't been pushed into this situation

[00:13:24] This wouldn't have happened. Oh, no

[00:13:27] Saying it shouldn't have happened and absolutely shouldn't have happened to lady Mariko

[00:13:31] She deserves a Christian burial and you see a shido still standing firm in his beliefs that because he's under the banner of

[00:13:38] the of the

[00:13:40] heir to the throne that therefore he is righteous in whatever he does and

[00:13:46] Says Mariko doesn't deserve a burial because she's

[00:13:49] Part of the family the last member of the family that killed

[00:13:52] Lady Ashiba's father and you can see Lady Ashiba in the background recoiling from this almost going

[00:13:57] It's not she doesn't deserve the punishment. She's my friend. She didn't do it

[00:14:01] She wasn't involved. She deserves her Christian burial exactly as as she should be getting

[00:14:07] Yeah, I mean, I think it's really interesting that the two points here is I think for me as well

[00:14:13] Is that you know a shido is very much aware that this is also Toran Aga trying to sow division and you get that?

[00:14:22] full bearing of division of split not just from the members of the council

[00:14:28] discussing Mariko's death but

[00:14:31] primarily Ashiba who effectively contradicts a shido and

[00:14:37] About that she won't get a kind of honorable burial in a sense to say that Mariko should be given

[00:14:46] Honor in death and given the rightful burial that she deserves

[00:14:51] And so, you know, that's an important little contradiction and undermining of a shido here

[00:14:57] Which you can sense would filter through to or be noted by the other members of the council

[00:15:04] She does also saying that the actual attack itself the shinobi attack on the castle in Osaka

[00:15:10] He's trying to say that that's Toran Aga that that did the attack. Yeah, and that potentially

[00:15:16] Mariko's death was accidental

[00:15:18] But he was trying to sow the division by setting up the shinobi attack not by him sending Mariko to

[00:15:24] To Ashiba which I thought was a really interesting play and it almost gets the council of regents on side

[00:15:30] I think this is an interesting touch and then we have another earthquake strikes. Yeah, Osaka

[00:15:35] But it's doing the vote yeah for for war and you know

[00:15:41] But it stays their hand almost

[00:15:42] It's like as if they're about to reach out to sign the declaration saying they're all aligned and then they stop and go

[00:15:47] Maybe we need to consider this more and we hear from Yabashige's story

[00:15:50] Yeah, this is exactly what happened with the former taiko

[00:15:54] He had a time where he was about to go to war there was an earthquake

[00:15:57] It stayed his hand he had to make peace because nobody would align with him in the war

[00:16:02] He took a little extra time to think about I guess yeah whether he was gonna go to war or not

[00:16:06] I really like this because it's the other part of it is the superstition

[00:16:10] You know that the earthquake was seen as a bad omen and like you know

[00:16:14] We have here the members of the council saying well

[00:16:18] Maybe we need more discussion before we do the vote and Ashido

[00:16:21] Saying, you know, we're not peasants here digging in the dirt and stop with this

[00:16:27] superstition and yes, you know that because I think that really kind of comes from and

[00:16:33] the background of

[00:16:35] Ashido in real life who came from a peasant tree exactly and worked his way up to this position of power. It's that

[00:16:43] little glimpse into

[00:16:46] You know the gradual eroding of

[00:16:51] superstitions here and

[00:16:53] Ashido in the sense being quite modern about it. This is superstition

[00:16:58] Yeah, this does not bring a bad omen on to the decision for war against Toran Aga

[00:17:05] And yet you have as you say you have a sugar giving the story of the taiko

[00:17:09] But I think I think the interesting part of it whether it's superstition or not

[00:17:12] I think the interesting part of it is because the earthquake happened to the taiko

[00:17:17] It gave him extra opportunity to consider his

[00:17:21] Options and he chose peace instead of war because he had more time. He wasn't reactive

[00:17:26] So it's almost almost saying this is the kind of thing that Toran Aga does if Toran Aga was given extra time

[00:17:33] He would always consider the path to peace avoiding war and because an earthquake happened during the taiko's time when he was about to go

[00:17:40] To war he considered peace then maybe this is an indicator that Ashido would decide to go peace or the other council of regions

[00:17:47] Wouldn't sign off on the war but I think Toran Aga would be of the same mindset as Ashido

[00:17:52] But what Toran Aga would do is understand that members of the council would come at it from a point of

[00:17:59] It being a bad omen and calculate that

[00:18:03] accordingly and I find that it is that clash of maybe

[00:18:09] superstition with modernity here and and how it's viewed whether that is from and

[00:18:15] And

[00:18:16] folklore or even from the church in a sense and I really enjoy that

[00:18:21] I mean there's a really interesting book called slaying dragons about the exploration of the Alps because a lot of the time and

[00:18:29] People thought dragons lived at the top of the mountains

[00:18:32] Right and until those early explorers

[00:18:36] Climbing the mountains to the peak and realizing actually well

[00:18:39] There was nothing there and then putting scientific instruments up there realizing that actually there is none of that

[00:18:45] Yeah, no kaiju on top of the Alps and no unfortunately not so I really like this how it how it all played out

[00:18:52] But I think importantly what is the forbearer to later events is ashiba?

[00:18:58] Undermining Ashido's view of how Mariko's body would be treated absolutely

[00:19:04] Absolutely, and I think you know we talked about it that off screen. There was this alliance between

[00:19:10] Ashiba and and ashido that they would be married their intent to marry

[00:19:14] And it's just interesting to see a play out here on screen that ashiba the one that really has power because of course

[00:19:20] she's the mother of the

[00:19:21] Of the the air that she always has that power in the back of her pocket that she can either give support

[00:19:28] Or take away exactly so kind of kind of like that is her ace in her ham

[00:19:33] Exactly exactly the last thing that happens in Osaka is what happens with john blackthorn

[00:19:38] But let's deal with his story in its own basheeda. Yeah, basheeda number two is john blackthorn's epilogue here

[00:19:44] Yeah, and first up, you know we we see the fall out of the cannon being fired at the duel and

[00:19:51] John blackthorn picking up mariko

[00:19:54] yelling and so on but ultimately seems to pass out or

[00:20:00] Has injuries from that explosion which the adrenaline at the time doesn't really make him feel them

[00:20:06] So he passes out and misses the funeral of mariko

[00:20:10] Yeah, but I suppose the big moment of him holding mariko in his arms is that he says he

[00:20:17] prays over her he says

[00:20:18] She is now yours lord effectively. He says that she is now committed to

[00:20:23] To the almighty father. Yeah, um, so he has

[00:20:28] Passed out exactly as you said john

[00:20:29] And I just think it's kind of sad given everything that they've gone through that when he wakes up

[00:20:33] He completely misses mariko's funeral. Um, he the funeral has taken place

[00:20:38] You know, we kind of see it in the the panning shot of

[00:20:41] Osaka where um where we hear the latin the latin voices of a christian burial or christian funeral

[00:20:48] Um, and you think maybe

[00:20:51] You'll go into the funeral itself

[00:20:52] But you don't we don't actually see the funeral we're like john blackthorn

[00:20:55] We've we've missed it completely and then he's allowed to be taken out of osaka

[00:21:01] um

[00:21:02] Father martin is the one that escorts him out of the city and they have an interesting conversation

[00:21:06] I suppose about that moment with mariko that john says

[00:21:10] I wasn't

[00:21:12] Shouting to my god. I wasn't shouting to your god to father martin

[00:21:15] I was shouting to god and I hope he was able to hear me

[00:21:18] I'm not sure if mariko heard me before she passed

[00:21:21] But I was committing her soul

[00:21:23] To the heavens

[00:21:24] Yeah, and you know, I just think it's interesting from the catholic faith and from the christian faith because it's really important that what father martin says

[00:21:32] To him is don't worry. She already had done her last rites effectively before this happened to her

[00:21:38] So so from mariko's perspective even if let's say the lord didn't hear john's prayer

[00:21:45] She had already committed to the lord before she died. So I think that's an interesting discussion

[00:21:50] And I think also, you know even

[00:21:55] On the way to osaka harbour, you know

[00:21:59] John blackthorn thinks that

[00:22:01] Effectively he's going to be you know fake ambushed and killed even though he's been told he's allowed to go free

[00:22:08] And it isn't until the forest is like is this where i'm going to get killed

[00:22:12] and and and we find out um

[00:22:16] That one of mariko's requests when she was being given her rights by father martin was that he is allowed to go free

[00:22:23] And father martin keeps his word on there's a really interesting moment where you know, john blackthorn is almost kind of

[00:22:30] ruminating theorizing

[00:22:32] and you know what if

[00:22:35] Catholic Protestant and calvinist he brings in as well, you know that actually

[00:22:39] There wasn't that strife between them because the interesting point is for the europeans

[00:22:45] The big and this is what I find really interesting, you know at that time you could argue the cold war of

[00:22:51] The 16th and 17th century in europe was between

[00:22:56] different religious practices of christianity between Protestant and Catholicism and

[00:23:03] Their world view, you know the colonialization

[00:23:07] Of the americas and other parts of the world by the spanish to the portuguese the british the dutch

[00:23:13] were around

[00:23:16] effectively consolidating that power

[00:23:19] Of christianity or Protestantism effectively and so it's almost that play of saying what if we weren't

[00:23:28] Enemies we weren't at war

[00:23:30] Because of these the different faith. Yeah, and and you know, it echoes all geopolitical

[00:23:37] Ideologies that are sort of at hammer heads with one another and I like that because it is the same and it's a very modern

[00:23:46] aspect to bring into this and it's personalized with father martin saying, you know how marico would

[00:23:53] Have enjoyed us speaking in this way. Yeah without animosity

[00:23:57] Almost as friends

[00:23:59] And he says, you know, he will keep his word that he gave to marico even though in a sense

[00:24:06] He said the plan was to kill him. Yeah, and we've seen him go against the orders of his

[00:24:12] Superior before by traveling update

[00:24:14] Edo and that maybe he's doing that again in some respect potentially

[00:24:18] Yeah, he is he is committing to what marico had asked for

[00:24:22] Um, but I do think it's interesting in the response to father martin when he's going

[00:24:26] Oh, we're getting on really well

[00:24:28] Aren't we wouldn't this be great if we could do this all the time and as you say black thorns going well

[00:24:32] Never happen. There's too many different factions of religion. We will all fight

[00:24:37] You know, he even cultivated it's not just where he says calvinist. He says

[00:24:41] Catholics

[00:24:43] Protestants calvinist any other shitist there will always be fighting in between them

[00:24:47] We will never we will never stop and you know, obviously prophetic for for the next

[00:24:53] 400 years of battles between religions, you know

[00:24:56] Where people believe their right in their belief and and nobody else's right and will continue to

[00:25:01] Pervade wars across the world right up until present day. So

[00:25:05] Um, so it is a really interesting discussion

[00:25:07] But also as part of the discussion with with father martin we get I suppose

[00:25:11] If you didn't realize that last week's episode chapter nine crimson sky was torren aga's plan to rest away power from

[00:25:18] Ashido we hear a lot from father martin here in this discussion

[00:25:22] Um, he says that all the prisoners have been freed from osaka that the stranglehold that ashida had put on

[00:25:29] Osaka has been removed effectively

[00:25:31] He believes that torren aga is going to be dead in just a few weeks, but

[00:25:35] John effectively is saying to him

[00:25:37] There's been no dirty hands. No war

[00:25:40] It was just on one woman

[00:25:42] We didn't have to go to a massive battle to end this

[00:25:46] Stelmator this deadlock between the two sides in this war

[00:25:49] It was on marico and she played her part effective. Yeah, I mean she is this crucible and the torren aga has used

[00:25:56] And john blackthorn says to father martin, you know, if you believe that you don't know yoshi

[00:26:02] torren aga giving him his full name and because

[00:26:07] I think john blackthorn is realizing

[00:26:10] and

[00:26:11] The aspects that torren aga has brought here the plan at least grains of it and you know

[00:26:18] I just think that moment as john is leaving the harbour going out to yabashiga ship to be transported back to

[00:26:25] Back to the fishing village to his own ship and that moment where he's in the boat and you can just see him completely breaking

[00:26:31] Yeah, after realizing or after finding out that marico is the one that effectively saved his life one final time

[00:26:38] And that she's gone. I just think that is so stunningly played

[00:26:43] absolutely beautifully played by kosmar jarvis as the as the

[00:26:47] Tears well in his eyes and he's trying to hold them back before

[00:26:51] Yeah, I suppose going back on to to a ship with that with yabashiga. You know, yeah

[00:26:55] Interestingly as the ship arrives back in agero, we see that his boat

[00:27:02] His galley has been scuffled and but then there is this all that

[00:27:07] element to john blackthorn's epilogue where he goes to meet

[00:27:12] Torren aga. Oh, I love this. Um, you know

[00:27:14] What I kind of initially liked about this is that he meets with omie again who asks him for

[00:27:21] His swords and pistols. I mean this time john blackthorn hands them over to him

[00:27:27] As he's brought to torren aga for this meeting

[00:27:31] Yeah, and of course this time going without a translator

[00:27:35] But he's learned

[00:27:37] I suppose what he wants to say has a speech fully prepared for torren aga to say to him

[00:27:42] Also, interestingly, we we get the final reveal I suppose of the spy from the fishing village. Um, yeah, mirage

[00:27:49] Yeah, mirage who reveals now to john we knew from earlier on in the season

[00:27:53] But reveals to john that he is a samurai who's been in place here feeding information

[00:27:58] And it's I suppose it's with a little bit of sadness because effectively

[00:28:02] He could have been there to translate everything john said all the way from the beginning

[00:28:05] Yeah, yeah, but it was on maricot to do that

[00:28:08] He reveals that he was told he must join the catholic faith

[00:28:11] He must learn the portuguese ways and learn portuguese. So he's able to speak to john pretty well

[00:28:17] And have an actual conversation with him. He apologizes almost immediately for that

[00:28:21] Um, but his his higher job I suppose was working on behalf of torren aga and passing the information to him that he needed

[00:28:28] But john stands

[00:28:29] Powerfully, I think in front of torren aga trying to encourage him to stop

[00:28:34] His persecution of the people of the village here that the people of azura didn't do anything

[00:28:40] They're not responsible for the destruction of john ship

[00:28:44] Um, and the torren aga needs to stand down and he's gonna go so far here that john blackthorne

[00:28:50] Almost commits epiku. Yeah, he he's saying to torren aga

[00:28:56] I've always been your enemy. Don't blame the people of this village

[00:28:59] I've always been here trying to use you for my purposes

[00:29:03] But the people of the village here have done nothing

[00:29:05] So if they if one of them destroyed my ship, it's one person that was misguided at that particular time

[00:29:10] But i'm not your friend. I'm not a allied to you

[00:29:13] So

[00:29:14] I'm willing to to take my own life here to prove to to end the end your persecution of the people in the village

[00:29:21] Yeah, and it also seems it's coming from the basis that it wasn't

[00:29:25] My enemies that who burned the ship, but it was through the arrangement of maraca

[00:29:32] For his life that in exchange for that that ship must be scuttled and destroyed

[00:29:38] But torren aga ultimately refuses the request

[00:29:42] For john blackthorne to die in fact intervening to stop him from

[00:29:46] Stabbing himself in the stomach. Um, and two things here one here

[00:29:52] With john blackthorne where he says, you know, if you're finally done rebuild your ship. You can do that

[00:29:59] But build me a fleet. Mm-hmm. And the other side of it is that later on with yabashige

[00:30:08] He makes the point which we had talked about previously that

[00:30:13] John blackthorne provided a distraction

[00:30:16] But equally the reason why he kept him around was that on a personal note torren aga found him amusing

[00:30:22] Just maybe love and you know, it was like

[00:30:25] And I kind of like that just the smallest of things, you know, in some ways

[00:30:32] John blackthorne connected with torren aga and he didn't quite realize it

[00:30:37] Yeah, and also yes, john blackthorne was using him like he says

[00:30:42] But torren aga absolutely was as well. Oh, were that a maybe their birds of a feather to some degree

[00:30:49] obviously different levels of status in society, but

[00:30:54] You know, it was a really nice kind of

[00:30:58] Realization here. Yeah, I think it doesn't turn out even say, you know, how many times john blackthorne avoided death because

[00:31:06] I find him funny basically, you know, it's almost like I wasn't going to keep him around

[00:31:10] He was useful for a time as a distraction and then when that usefulness went away

[00:31:15] I was almost going to let him die or almost going to kill him

[00:31:18] Um, and then decided to keep him around a bit longer because I thought he was

[00:31:21] Interesting and amusing so I thought that was interesting. Um, we will obviously talk about that

[00:31:26] the moment between yabashiga and torren aga in another boshida point but

[00:31:31] Important in this moment here, I suppose as john has just pledged himself

[00:31:35] Tried to commit sepaku to stop the people of ajira being killed

[00:31:39] Torren aga saying, okay

[00:31:41] Well, build me a fleet of ships and he will stop persecuting the people of village

[00:31:44] But he reveals later on to yabashiga

[00:31:46] That he's the one that had the ship burnt. He paid someone to go put gunpowder on the ship

[00:31:51] It was a very easy thing to do so that it would be a test for john's true loyalties as to whether john would stay

[00:31:57] And I lie himself with uh, japan effectively which he does do. Yes. Yeah. Yeah, so

[00:32:03] Um, is there anything else about john blackthorne? I know we'll talk about him again and one of the other points

[00:32:07] But is there anything else about john blackthorne's epilogue here? Um, I think the only other thing is

[00:32:12] sort of brief moment towards the end where

[00:32:16] John blackthorne is trying to pull which just seems impossible to me, but I guess it is true manpower

[00:32:23] Uh, just trying to pull with a number of the villagers

[00:32:27] At the scuffle ship into shallow water at least so that and he can salvage or whatever

[00:32:35] Parts of of the ship and we have bun taro arrive and effectively help him. Yeah, and to do this

[00:32:42] And an exchange of a flask of water and from john to bun taro bun taro looks absolutely broken here

[00:32:50] And there's no there's no exchange of words between the two. It is just

[00:32:54] This is what you're doing

[00:32:56] Bun taro comes and joins in fact, I think I think the poor villagers are about to get a rest for the first time

[00:33:01] A few hours. Um, I'm on bun taro joins. They all

[00:33:05] Join back in again. It's it's I suppose it's almost a ceremonial

[00:33:09] gesture from bun taro to say

[00:33:12] I'm I will help you despite what happened and I suppose you feel the loss similar to the loss I feel

[00:33:18] For for marico. Um, but it's interesting as we as you reflect on the series bun taro is now the last surviving member of the totoclan

[00:33:26] And they've lost pretty much everybody including his wife and his and his father so um, so he's

[00:33:33] Effectively the the leader of the clan, I guess would he be?

[00:33:36] Where he would step up to but he's lost everything around him and um

[00:33:41] I do feel you know, we talked about this throughout the series has been lots of feedback about you know bun taro's feelings towards marico

[00:33:49] He certainly senses the loss here and feels the loss of marico

[00:33:53] He was pushed aside by her when he tried to reconnect with her and didn't have any contact with her from that point onwards

[00:33:59] And now she's gone now. She's dead. So yeah, no future um relationship and as you say it's

[00:34:05] Almost a it's a gesture of common ground in their shirt grief. Yeah, but also

[00:34:13] Maybe drawing a line in the sand

[00:34:16] But of their previous antagonism

[00:34:19] Exactly towards one another but wow you do want uh, you do want bun taro on your uh, yeah one additional

[00:34:25] Uh person and that ship came flying out the water if you want them on your tug of war team, did you? Yeah, exactly super bun taro

[00:34:33] But it is it is a very interesting uh final moment. I suppose for for bun taro, but he looks broken

[00:34:39] He does absolutely. Yeah, but let us get on to brushido number three fugees epilogue

[00:34:45] Um, which I found really really satisfying actually. I really really like yeah very touching

[00:34:52] um, and certainly I mean even just you had to see uh, john blackthorne returning to his

[00:34:59] hatomoto

[00:35:00] House and fugees then they just sit together. Yeah, and it's just looking out on the the rain that's dill falling in a

[00:35:09] Jiro and I just thought that was really touching, you know, you know, it's interesting

[00:35:15] It's like here's a connection again with the grief of marico because fugee was you know

[00:35:20] Knew her was friends with her. Yeah, you know marico had effectively

[00:35:25] Cajoled her and said, you know, it is your duty after the sepaku

[00:35:29] um of her husband and baby boy. Yeah, and to

[00:35:36] Do the duty of lord tyron aga and effectively to be

[00:35:40] uh, john blackthorne's consort and so

[00:35:44] I kind of like this mean but even fugee said, you know

[00:35:47] I like the fact that she says

[00:35:50] But my work here is done now, you know, I'm going to be a nun. Yeah, and

[00:35:56] And so I like that they're able to communicate, you know, we've mentioned a few times john

[00:36:00] Uh has tended to go towards having certain phrases for conversations, but he can understand japanese

[00:36:06] And it's certainly far better than he could a couple of years ago when he arrived in japan

[00:36:11] I guess it's a few years right?

[00:36:12] But he's able to have a small conversation. He's able to say a few

[00:36:17] Specific words, you know that that moment when the two of them sit down in the rain in the garden and both of them look out

[00:36:22] And he says kind of no translator as as marico has gone

[00:36:25] But they're able to have a connection between the two of them

[00:36:28] They're able to have this moment of discussion

[00:36:31] I suppose and it's interesting that john pushes back when he hears that she's going off to become a nuns

[00:36:37] Um, he gets the two words none tomorrow

[00:36:41] Out of what uh, what fuji has said and then says no way for bidu you must

[00:36:45] Yeah, well he says I continue to be my uh my consort

[00:36:48] He says I wish you to stay and then I order it. Yes

[00:36:52] And fuji just comes back and says no my work for lord tyranic is complete. It is

[00:36:59] it's both

[00:37:02] Transactional but also

[00:37:05] That they have become

[00:37:07] Friends to some degree through this

[00:37:12] experience through

[00:37:14] the loss of marico

[00:37:16] And ultimately then that gets deepened with the gesture that john black does

[00:37:23] and with

[00:37:25] With her as they row out onto

[00:37:29] The the sea to effectively almost give a naval

[00:37:34] Barrier to spread the ashes at sea as as john blackthorn would be used to from being in the navy

[00:37:41] Yeah, and and I thought it was really really touching actually and I found this a

[00:37:46] Significant emotional beat within and this show

[00:37:51] Yeah

[00:37:52] You know when you look back at the previous episodes with of their relationship

[00:37:57] And that they have been on a journey themselves

[00:38:01] Yeah, yeah and letting letting them go and letting them be together

[00:38:04] In the afterlife letting them live forever effectively and I love

[00:38:09] The kind of turn back from fuji when john's about to

[00:38:13] Throw the rosary beads that he that he has still

[00:38:17] Gripping on to from marico. He's about to throw them into the into the sea

[00:38:21] And fuji repeating marico's words to her when uh when her son was about to be uh to be killed for

[00:38:28] At the beginning of the season sure pete's marico's words which are less your hand be the last hands to hold them before

[00:38:34] They're committed to death so

[00:38:37] So

[00:38:38] It's just calling right the way back to how their relationship started effectively and here they are as you say as friends here

[00:38:45] At the end that john is giving her a moment to say goodbye to her family

[00:38:48] As she realizes how much this means to john to say final goodbye to marico

[00:38:53] Like it's a very small but it's it's a really nice story thread through this series. You know, it really is

[00:39:00] Yeah, yeah, and fuji's a fantastic character. She's she's had so many interesting moments throughout the series going from being

[00:39:06] Really aggressively against this idea of being anywhere near the barbarian to now truly being friends with him

[00:39:11] Yeah here. Yeah and and her own grief with her husband and

[00:39:17] Son, you know, yeah, yeah, really good. Absolutely. Absolutely

[00:39:21] I think let's move on to uh, I suppose the biggest

[00:39:25] Bushido point from the episode 0.4 which is yabashiga and toran aga's epilogue

[00:39:31] Yeah for the episode

[00:39:33] Oh

[00:39:33] What an interesting way to do this. Um, we we had the reaction from yabashiga in osaka

[00:39:39] And now he's arrived back at what he believed I guess as a village in his home territories

[00:39:45] And the minute he steps off and arrives into

[00:39:48] The village he's taken um

[00:39:51] As prisoner is arrested effectively and brought to toran aga

[00:39:56] But another callback right the way back to episode one because this is exactly what happened to john blackthorne when he arrived on

[00:40:01] On these shores. Um, he has made neil in front of toran aga just like uh, john blackthorne was made neil in front of

[00:40:08] Of omie. Umia standing behind um toran aga at this stage as toran aga's

[00:40:15] Effectively interrogating yabashiga telling him

[00:40:18] We know everything that you've done. Yeah, he his spies saw

[00:40:22] um yabashiga letting in intruders into his palace in osaka. Um, and

[00:40:30] You know, I think

[00:40:32] It it's really interesting. Um because effectively he's stripped of his lands. They're forfeited. Yeah, and

[00:40:40] He's basically told you must commit seppuku by sunset the following day

[00:40:48] Um get your affairs in order basically and then you have to commit seppuku. Um, there is just a

[00:40:53] Amazing line as well where yes, he's stripped of his lands

[00:40:57] But he calls out asking for omie to be given those lands that should be passed on to him

[00:41:02] He's his nephew

[00:41:02] He's the one that deserves to become the next lord of izu and and uh take over his place

[00:41:07] And toran aga responds with no your second death is that you don't get to do that

[00:41:12] You don't get to name your successor. You will die and your lands are no longer yours or your families. So

[00:41:18] Um, that was really really he says that he also says

[00:41:23] That's a fair ask, you know, I almost would do the same thing because I think toran aga sees

[00:41:30] The potential in omie as well

[00:41:32] And in the same way that yabashige does as well, but yes, it's a it's a double blow here

[00:41:39] to yabashige and

[00:41:41] Unfortunately to omie as well. It's a it's another blow for him

[00:41:46] But ultimately here yabashige asks for toran aga to be his second

[00:41:51] For the the seppuku. Yes. Yeah

[00:41:55] Did you think he was gonna get out of it, john?

[00:41:57] I kind of did to some extent for everything that we've seen this season

[00:42:00] You think there's gonna be a moment and even that conversation the toran aga and yabashige have

[00:42:06] It feels like there's moments where toran aga is going to say look

[00:42:09] I understand, you know, I played you, you know, well, he knew exactly what yabashige was going to do not not play by play

[00:42:15] But all the way back to like episode eight episode seven

[00:42:19] He was talking to mariko about what yabashige and john black thumb were going to do

[00:42:23] He knew exactly the kind of positions they would put themselves in as his plan played out

[00:42:30] and here

[00:42:31] Yabashige has is effectively his usefulness is finished

[00:42:35] But he's also been very treacherous towards toran aga. Absolutely that can't stand for toran aga

[00:42:40] The opposite ends of yabashige and john blackthorn because john blackthorn is reprieved by toran aga because

[00:42:47] He didn't let intruders in but also then proved his loyalty

[00:42:51] Yabashige has never proven that and hence the seppuku. Yeah, I do really like the the little

[00:42:57] um

[00:42:59] Before hand beast but with yabashige and army where he says, you know, you're the son I never had

[00:43:05] And yes, yeah, and you know, I otherwise I wouldn't have suggested that you take the lands

[00:43:12] It's just a really nice touch as he says, you know, the family name is in good hands. He says to army

[00:43:17] and um

[00:43:19] Hands his death poem to army and then I thought my thought touched the hands his final will

[00:43:25] to his

[00:43:27] And ever loyal a yes has been there as well, you know, I do says have a good death. Yeah, I don't know about his response

[00:43:35] It feels like

[00:43:37] Maybe it's just because they've been going round and round and that for quite a long time where it's I need to write a new wheel

[00:43:43] You know, it's always has always been yabashige's

[00:43:45] Claim when he feels like he's in danger today's the day i'm gonna die kind of thing

[00:43:49] So when he hands over his final will

[00:43:51] To the aid and the egg goes well have a good death, you know, it's almost like we've done this so many times

[00:43:56] Maybe you'll get out of it. Maybe you won't or is he just going? Well

[00:44:00] It had to come sometime

[00:44:01] We've been dealing with it for such a long time here. Have a good death. I hope it lives up to your expectations

[00:44:07] You know, we we know from that first episode and that

[00:44:10] Incredible introduction to the character of yabashige that he has always written down

[00:44:14] How his enemies have died and what their reactions are to death and here he is

[00:44:19] At I suppose the cliff edge for him his moment

[00:44:21] Yeah to to where he's gonna die and and yeah, but like you say, I mean yabashige and taranaga have their final words

[00:44:29] And it's really good and this is really where yabashige is wanting to know

[00:44:33] Well, what is to come here from the

[00:44:37] Events that you've set in motion here. Um, he wants to know that plan before

[00:44:44] He dies and

[00:44:46] I love the when he says to taranaga. How does it feel to control the winds? You know, listen

[00:44:53] This suggestion of being

[00:44:55] Very powerful in terms of tactical and strategic sort of play by taranaga, which he absolutely is

[00:45:03] And but his reply is that well, I don't but I study it to maximize

[00:45:10] His genius effectively here in this moment and you know

[00:45:15] Saying as we said before

[00:45:17] Mariko being the crucible of the events here. He says I sent a woman where an army could never go

[00:45:25] Yeah, you know that was the trojan horse, you know, we there was some great theories about whether it was his half brother

[00:45:32] Yeah, who was on the council

[00:45:34] But ultimately um, it was mariko here, you know, and I just thought it was a really

[00:45:41] It was just a really kind of

[00:45:45] Great final conversation between the two, you know, taranaga absolutely would not change his mind here

[00:45:52] Even though possibly you think he could do. Yeah

[00:45:56] But you could sense the history between these two and and it was really really good

[00:46:02] It felt like a yeah

[00:46:05] It felt like a meaningful send off the yabashige

[00:46:09] It did and he's the only one that here's the final plan. Um, you know, it's something that throughout the series

[00:46:14] Um as viewers you've wanted to get into the mind of taranaga

[00:46:17] What is it that his moves are going to lead to what is it that that he's actually planning towards and what he's planning

[00:46:23] Towards is um and we see it, um, you know on screen

[00:46:26] It's not like they're avoiding showing massive battles or massive scenes with huge amounts of extras

[00:46:32] It's there in this future discussion to yabashiga

[00:46:36] Taranaga tells them the whole plan will play out in about a month's time after the morning period for

[00:46:41] Uh for mariko basically which uh, ashido agreed to um at the start of the episode

[00:46:46] After that morning period their armies will face off against each other

[00:46:50] And we see us. We see huge

[00:46:53] Swats of troops massive armies standing ready to do battle

[00:46:58] But at the point of doing battle lady ashiba will call

[00:47:03] Back her troops or let's say the air's troops. She will send a letter to ashido calling back those troops saying

[00:47:11] He no longer has their support and ashido will be left on his own with no war

[00:47:17] No battle no support and that will be the end of his time reigning

[00:47:23] Yeah, but taranaga will take over

[00:47:24] It's interesting because we do have um a scene prior to this of lady shizu giving taranaga a letter sent in secret by lady ashiba

[00:47:35] and and

[00:47:37] He recounts um

[00:47:39] part of a poem that mariko

[00:47:42] Had said to him and previously

[00:47:46] And we we have this conversation of we only have mariko's words now

[00:47:50] And I love that he then says what a bonfire she made it was

[00:47:56] This crucible and repeats that you know as I say the crucible is a fitting metaphor of what mariko was

[00:48:05] What she made within that bonfire that fire and and

[00:48:11] Yeah, you see that

[00:48:13] prediction of

[00:48:15] Ashiba

[00:48:17] Withholding the air's troops from ashido's side in the battle of the five armies effectively that this they're talking about here

[00:48:25] Yeah, and so really good and part of this then is that taranaga doesn't tell yabashige

[00:48:32] This but yabashige immediately says

[00:48:35] You know he understands the secret heart

[00:48:39] Of taranaga that it is

[00:48:42] To reinstate the shogunate

[00:48:44] And you know and be the shogun that he will be the leader

[00:48:48] He does actually want the power even though he's always claimed he never wanted the power

[00:48:53] Yeah, but his plan will lead to a new era of peace is the way that he's describing it. Um

[00:49:00] Yeah, it's just it's just a really interesting

[00:49:03] Choice to do it this way and you have yabashige saying, you know, well, it's all hypocrisy

[00:49:08] You know lesser men dying pointless

[00:49:11] and

[00:49:13] And taranaga saying accept if I win

[00:49:17] Then because taranaga says all these other people have contributed in fact in a sense

[00:49:23] You know, maybe he's the the master puppeteer, but

[00:49:28] He acknowledges and gives credit to the people in effect that he has puppeteers

[00:49:35] They've played their part. They are as of equal importance to him in setting the events that transpire for

[00:49:43] This overall strategy. Yeah, he says except if I win again reflecting on what

[00:49:50] Um john blackthorne said when he arrived and they met yeah, he says, you know, this won't be pointless

[00:49:58] If I win, yeah, and that's the same

[00:50:01] Philosophy as taranaga and maybe that's where the connection truly came. Yeah, you know

[00:50:08] So I really like that and of course we have then

[00:50:12] The sepica

[00:50:13] Yeah, the death of on the cliff looking over the the ocean. Yes and taranaga does take his head

[00:50:19] I do I just felt like there was gonna be a moment where yeah

[00:50:22] I was gonna stay his hand

[00:50:24] But you know, there there is that reaction from where he says, you know, why tell a dead man the future as

[00:50:31] As he commits sepacoo

[00:50:34] Again interesting choice. I want to hear our listeners thoughts on the final episode and how this played out

[00:50:39] You know, it's it's an interesting way to tell the story as I said

[00:50:42] But I wonder why they chose to do it this way where it's taranaga telling yabashiga the future and us as the audience

[00:50:49] Not seeing that that's how it actually plays out, you know

[00:50:52] He's giving a glimpse to the future to a man that's dying here

[00:50:56] Um, but he doesn't we don't see that that's exactly how it turns out

[00:51:00] And as I say the plate at the end of the episode telling you this is how it played out

[00:51:04] In fact, all we have is that moment with bontara helping john blackthorne to to raise one ship from the ocean

[00:51:11] And taranaga staring out over what you suspect is the future

[00:51:15] He's tearing out over japan knowing this is the first step in his plan that will get him to win the war effectively so

[00:51:23] um

[00:51:24] But also as we say knowing that this is going to be a bloodless

[00:51:28] Battle that's coming up. That's why you're pretty certain that we're not going to get a second season

[00:51:32] It's not like they're going to go and tell the story of that actual battle and how yeah

[00:51:36] No, I wouldn't a big massive moments of the five armies staging

[00:51:39] Uh standoff that's it's not gonna happen. So they they show it in this battle

[00:51:44] Happened in history in real life. Yes. You know, well again battle is is the wrong term for it

[00:51:49] It's a standoff that that led to um the real life

[00:51:53] character taking over japan so

[00:51:56] So this is this is similar to what happened and in fact, we're going to actually incorporate that into our bashi to five

[00:52:02] What happened to the actual characters in history because I you know, I think it's I think it's really interesting

[00:52:06] That these were real people of course dramatized for the show

[00:52:10] It's kind of interesting when you know, you watch um

[00:52:13] Biographical movies and they tend to avoid the fact that most biographical movies or biographies are

[00:52:18] Historical fiction. They're not really what happened. There are lots of amalgamations and lots of things here shogun is actually very specific telling you

[00:52:26] We've changed all the names

[00:52:27] These are the real people. This is not exactly what happened to them

[00:52:30] But there are some connections some things that did happen in history

[00:52:33] So first up just to mention kind of the three major characters. Let's talk about them

[00:52:37] Hossakao Grasia was the character that marico was based on and interestingly elements of marico story follow

[00:52:44] Gracious quite closely. Um, but her manner of death is slightly different

[00:52:48] Um, when ashida attempted to take gracia host is like ashido tried to do here in in taking hostage of marico

[00:52:55] Um, she was actually killed by the family retainer. So the family retainer would be like the guard

[00:53:01] The bodyguard of the family

[00:53:04] He killed her then committed sepaku himself and then set the match on fire

[00:53:08] And the outrage over her death was so big that it forced ashido to abandon his planned

[00:53:15] It's planned war. So very similar here to what happened to marico in the story of shogun

[00:53:20] Yeah, it's it's really interesting. Um, you know, it's similar kind of thing

[00:53:25] It was like I guess the waste of public opinion

[00:53:28] Exactly. Ultimately, exactly. It forced ashida to abandon his plans. Yeah. Um, so

[00:53:35] Really really interesting and then william adams who uh, john black thrown is based on um,

[00:53:40] Eventually he was given permission to return home to england. Uh, he ultimately did ultimately decide to stay in japan

[00:53:46] became highly involved in japan's red seal trade and

[00:53:50] Chartered and served as captain on many expeditions uh in southeast asia

[00:53:55] He married a japanese woman named yuki and had a son joseph and a daughter susanna

[00:54:00] He died in japan at the age of 55

[00:54:02] So interestingly when we were talking at the opening, uh john was saying that that looked like john black thrown was back in england with his grandchildren

[00:54:10] um

[00:54:11] But and looks a lot older than 55 maybe 55 in the 1600s looked like 80

[00:54:16] I would say so

[00:54:17] But uh, but john black thrown did make it to 55 and then finally, uh, took a go at isu

[00:54:22] Who's uh, who's the character that lord?

[00:54:24] The turan aga is based on he received appointment to shogun in 1603 which would be around the right time the show started in 1600

[00:54:30] So three years later that would be a round

[00:54:32] Right for the timeline for how long john black thrown has spent here

[00:54:36] He voluntarily abdicated from office in 1605 but remained in power until his death in 1616

[00:54:42] And set up a careful set of rules

[00:54:45] Which is called the bukkah hand system designed to keep the daimo and samurai in check under the new shogunate

[00:54:52] So

[00:54:53] It's interesting. He set up a whole new structure to ensure what happened with the shido didn't happen again

[00:54:59] Um after getting into power

[00:55:00] So that era of peace that that turan aga speaks to uh yabashiga about does come to pass

[00:55:07] On her absolutely in the real term in real life. Yeah, I mean what's fascinating is you know, it feels like

[00:55:13] You know whether say like in in england the the the power between monarch and parliaments

[00:55:20] And leading to the civil war again, it's

[00:55:23] You know, it's

[00:55:25] The structures of power in japan and how they

[00:55:30] Evolved into I guess the modern structures and it'd be interesting to understand how I mean, I I don't know

[00:55:37] But just how

[00:55:38] You know those those modern structures of japanese governance

[00:55:44] What's the evolution there from that point, you know

[00:55:47] Well, interestingly that's what james lavel's novels after shogunate about because they lead all the way up into the 1900s

[00:55:54] So uh, apparently so each of the each of the books takes not it not specifically a century

[00:55:58] But it will take a big story from the history leading up to

[00:56:02] To the 20th century. So so I think that's that's maybe something that you could uh could jump into john

[00:56:07] Yeah, sounds good. It could be interesting

[00:56:09] Any other notes any other moments that we've missed from the episode that you want to have

[00:56:13] No nothing for me really. Um

[00:56:15] You're settled Derek just just one and I think it's because you mentioned that that letter that came from Lady oshiba to

[00:56:22] Toranaga, there is that moment with oshiba sitting with her son

[00:56:26] Um the air to to the throne of japan effectively where the two of them are talking about the poetry that mariko wrote

[00:56:32] Um, and they're talking about, you know, it's power and and it's effectiveness that it has on

[00:56:38] On oshiba. I think it's so central to that coming together of

[00:56:43] Toranaga and oshiba, uh, which we don't really see on screen

[00:56:46] We just see that letter that she hands over but you would presume her

[00:56:51] Thinking back on a relationship of mariko the power of of the words that mariko left her with about

[00:56:55] Um, there are no flares unless they fall, you know, that was the initial

[00:57:00] initial words that she

[00:57:02] Had with her when the two of them had their last conversation. So um

[00:57:06] Just that moment. I felt it was really powerful in the episode

[00:57:10] Showing that oshiba is turning away from what oshido wanted. Um, just I thought it was a really good moment

[00:57:15] Just to have the mother and son together

[00:57:18] Her him helping her out with the poem, you know as a as a fun little game between the two of them

[00:57:23] But having so much more impact on the world of japan

[00:57:28] In the letter she writes to Toranaga, which I presume included the final version of that poem

[00:57:32] Like I would guess maybe yeah, which is what inspired the words Toranaga says on the other end when he gets it from

[00:57:37] From his concert excellent stuff. Yeah, it's a really good moment

[00:57:42] So Derek, uh overall, what do you think of chapter 10?

[00:57:46] What a series

[00:57:47] What an

[00:57:49] Amazing show. I really really enjoyed it. Um, I absolutely wasn't expecting this to be an epilogue and epilogue only episode

[00:57:57] I think we've we've talked about that earlier on i'm really interested to hear

[00:58:01] What our fellow warriors thought of thought of the show, but it makes total sense to me

[00:58:05] I think um, they've they haven't put a foot wrong for me about bringing this

[00:58:11] Story to life on screen. It's been so interesting to watch every week

[00:58:15] We had actually kind of hit upon it much earlier than we thought we had

[00:58:18] Uh in about episode six or so we were talking about Toranaga will do everything he possibly can to avoid war

[00:58:24] And that is his plan and that will get to his plan and the fact that they did call it

[00:58:29] You know, hey everybody in the back if you didn't catch this last week was crimson sky that was marico

[00:58:34] She was always the plan. Um, she did exactly what she was supposed to do so that we didn't have a war

[00:58:39] So it wouldn't be army versus army millions of people dying or hundreds of thousands of people dying

[00:58:45] That was crimson sky

[00:58:46] Here we are at the end and the fruits of what she delivered for us will bring a better japan

[00:58:52] And i'm a a greater era of peace. I thought that's a fascinating story to tell. Yeah, absolutely

[00:58:57] And so interesting and i'm so well put together the acting has been fantastic

[00:59:00] The characters have been so interesting to watch

[00:59:03] Every week, so i'm going to miss shogun

[00:59:05] But i'm happy to have had this type of story being told on screen for the first time and what feels like a very long time

[00:59:11] Absolutely

[00:59:12] It feels like something like this when successful they try and spin it out into a second season or they already have a second season

[00:59:17] Ready to go whereas this feels like it's taken

[00:59:19] Four or five years to get to the screen. We know that there was a lot of work done

[00:59:23] And you can see the fruits that are really really good

[00:59:26] How about yourself john? What did you think of the final episode and the series of shogun overall?

[00:59:29] I really enjoyed the epilogue. Um, I would give it four cvus sepacus out of five

[00:59:37] No, i just like how it tithed up really. I mean it was a bit of a jolt

[00:59:42] I was expecting the episode to be a bit more kinetic moving forward

[00:59:45] It felt more like a gentle roll down a slope

[00:59:49] Towards the end. Um, I think it was just because it was so heightened by

[00:59:54] Chapter nine. Yeah, but nonetheless, you know on reflection. I just liked

[01:00:00] Seeing these relationships because in effect, that's what it's being about is these relationships

[01:00:06] Come to a conclusion and how they impacted the future and the prediction that is laid out by

[01:00:14] The conversation and the chat between yabashige and toran aga before yabashige gets um

[01:00:22] Perform sepacus so I I really kind of enjoyed that. Um, and I like all these moments through here

[01:00:29] And with the overarching shadow of mario co's death here

[01:00:34] I mean for me, I think toran aga saying what a bonfire she made is such a great line

[01:00:39] Yeah, and all these different touch points to various things that have happened in the previous episodes

[01:00:45] And I think totally agree with you. You know this whole series just

[01:00:50] Absolutely was uh an exploration and investigation

[01:00:56] around

[01:00:58] Soft power in a sense. Yeah, and

[01:01:02] within the confines of the rules of

[01:01:06] Of japan in this period and I just thought it was really good with the

[01:01:10] The disruptive element of you know

[01:01:13] Western influence there whether it is the catholic church or the arrival of john blackthorne

[01:01:19] So I absolutely love this series. Um, and i'm actually really pleased it's just going to be this series

[01:01:25] I didn't see the need to have then follow it on with the a season two

[01:01:29] And I just think it's so interesting that you saw the saber rattling

[01:01:32] You saw the the people that are willing to go to war over anything

[01:01:35] You saw, you know the younger characters who tried to

[01:01:38] Instantly react to things that love of them dying in this season, you know including toran aga's son

[01:01:43] You know people that are react instantly to things the success here the person that wins

[01:01:48] I threw everything is the thoughtful one that sits back and avoids those confrontations as much as possible

[01:01:55] He's the one that stepped out of it

[01:01:57] And will lead to the betterment of japan. Yeah, um, it's it makes it such a different story from all of the other action

[01:02:05] Movies you've seen where it's like our army versus your army whoever has the bigger weapons wins, you know

[01:02:10] So and that's what you think is going to happen right at the start

[01:02:13] You think john blackthorne's here with his western

[01:02:15] His western abilities his ships his weapons and he's going to hand them over to toran aga and toran aga will

[01:02:20] Will storm the castle of osaka. It's a completely different story to that

[01:02:24] And I think a very successful one. Yeah, definitely. Yeah really really good

[01:02:29] Yeah

[01:02:30] I think with that let us get on to our feedback from our fellow warriors

[01:02:34] Absolutely up to episode nine and we're we are recording this in advance of episode 10

[01:02:38] But we do want to hear your thoughts about episode 10

[01:02:40] So, uh, please keep sending them into us to feedback at tv podcast industries dot com or pop on over to our facebook group at facebook

[01:02:46] Dot com slash groups slash tv podcast industries

[01:02:49] We also have

[01:02:51] All of our episodes now available on youtube and we're getting lots of people

[01:02:54] Commenting over there as well. But of course chapter nine was massively affecting episodes

[01:02:58] So lots of people contacting us after that episode

[01:03:01] Yes, first up an email from gale frazier who says great show. I love it

[01:03:07] I read the book many many years ago when I was quite a bit younger. I'm 73 now

[01:03:11] I just finished the book again

[01:03:13] Love love love the show love the book so much as well

[01:03:17] My husband of 40 years isn't a reader, but he loves the show as well

[01:03:21] I'm reading the whole asian saga now. I finished shogun now and started on ty pan

[01:03:27] Anyway, thank you everyone for filling our time so momentously gale. Thanks gale. Thanks gale. Yeah great stuff

[01:03:35] Um, I'd say yes, I think there's four books in the asian saga

[01:03:40] three or four and by james four or five, but yeah, maybe it's four or five. Yeah

[01:03:44] And I think that maybe the last one is set very much in the modern era

[01:03:49] And so I guess it just feels a little bit distant from this

[01:03:53] Uh shogun and but yes, uh, so glad you like the show and enjoyed

[01:04:00] Uh, your reread of of the book as well. Absolutely

[01:04:04] I suppose that's always the great thing about having an adaptation

[01:04:07] Some people just will not sit down and read a book

[01:04:09] So if the adaptation is there similar to ourselves, we haven't read the book honestly

[01:04:12] I do have it. I'm definitely going to be reading it over the summer, but the adaptation is there

[01:04:17] I'll watch the adaptation. It's much easier to find time for that sometimes

[01:04:21] So so i'm happy that your husband was able to enjoy the show as well. Great stuff. Thanks gale

[01:04:26] We also got an email in from sandra who said hi, derricka john

[01:04:29] I've been enjoying your podcast on shogun

[01:04:31] To be honest, I was getting more and more nervous from when bantara returned from the dead upsetting the relationship between marico and anjin

[01:04:38] I could not see how target tarlaga was going to make things come right again

[01:04:41] Especially after losing ally after ally, but then came episode eight

[01:04:46] We saw tarlaga's hand pulling the strings or guiding his birds of prey

[01:04:50] Especially when he revealed his secret heart to marico about how he really felt about what had happened and about what he wanted her to do

[01:04:57] It reminded me of the hot springs when anjin was describing a knight in london taking a play a tragedy

[01:05:03] Doomed lovers and cursed kings anjin and marico are those doomed lovers

[01:05:07] But who is the cursed king ashiba's father marica's father ashido or tarlaga himself?

[01:05:13] Anyway, it all seemed terribly shakespearian which calmed my mind over what would happen next

[01:05:19] It will all come together tragedy comedy or a little of both

[01:05:22] Let's hope that tarlaga is more like prospo whose magic stirs things up

[01:05:26] But ultimately quells all tempests and arguments rather than king lear or hamlet whose actions end in death

[01:05:32] The plot feels so all-encompassing and epic a real masterpiece

[01:05:36] Shakespearean will anjin ever know what tarlaga's plans were will he understand what marico was trying to accomplish?

[01:05:42] Will yabashige have to face up to what his wheeling dealing has done

[01:05:45] Will anjin stay in japan or will taranaga let him go?

[01:05:49] Remember the priest in the prison in episode two

[01:05:51] He said something along the lines of if taranaga has made you his ally you will never leave japan alive

[01:05:57] I think the real samurai william alams never did return to england. He remained in japan for the rest of his life

[01:06:03] In episode nine marico put her life on the line three times once when she tried to walk out with lady kiri and lady shizu

[01:06:10] Second when she tried to commit seppuku

[01:06:12] And third when she put herself between the door and the blast when they were trapped

[01:06:16] Third time lucky or not so lucky

[01:06:18] But how will anjin react?

[01:06:20] He will be heartbroken especially after he begged her to live if not for good sense or for god

[01:06:25] Then to live for him. Yeah great great line that was absolutely

[01:06:29] I'm very grateful that the show's creators gave us some last moments between marico and anjin when he stepped up to be

[01:06:34] Her second saying has been through hell already that moment before the seppuku

[01:06:38] When she held his hand in the same way that father martin had held her hand when he gave her the rosary to hold

[01:06:43] On to when there was nothing else when anjin helped marico up after the attempt at seppuku

[01:06:47] Holding her hand until she grasped it and when anjin

[01:06:52] Went to her room the opposite from when marico slipped into his room in episode four and they had one last night together

[01:06:58] Will the people held hostage now be let go will taranaga and ashido face off against each other on the battlefield?

[01:07:03] Will we see the battle what will ishibe do?

[01:07:06] What will happen to ishiido back in episode two?

[01:07:09] I thought there was an undercurrent between ashiba and taranaga

[01:07:11] Perhaps a romance which ended when she became a consort of the taiko was this part of her hatred for taranaga

[01:07:17] A jilted lover as well as thinking he was the mastermind behind the murder of her father

[01:07:22] Could ashiba become his next consort? Is the heir really taranaga's son rather than the taiko's?

[01:07:28] Will taranaga become shogun even after he protested it so much?

[01:07:32] Publicly says he doesn't want to but perhaps in his secret heart

[01:07:35] He knows he must because how could anyone else be trusted with such power?

[01:07:39] It's a lot to squeeze into the final episode, but after that jam packed episode nine

[01:07:43] I think they could do it. I can't wait

[01:07:45] Thank you for all your in-depth discussions about each episode

[01:07:47] It really helped me to think through the implications of what was going on each time

[01:07:51] And I cannot wait to see what these actors do next

[01:07:54] Sandra no kata

[01:07:56] Excellent. Thanks so much Sandra. Absolutely. Well, certainly I think um, you're in for a

[01:08:03] nice little treat with this epilogue format

[01:08:06] Because in a sense they do fit all that in yeah

[01:08:09] Maybe just not in the proportions that you think

[01:08:13] They're going to be in yes for sure and

[01:08:17] Interestingly, I think your point from episode two. I thought there was that those looks between ashiba and taranaga

[01:08:23] Which I wondered what that was about and yeah, I have a feeling it was because of the murder of her father

[01:08:30] It was probably more to do with that, but you just never know. You know, there is a lot on said here

[01:08:36] Yeah, um, I do remember suspecting that the that the heir was not

[01:08:40] The um was not the son of the taiko that it was potentially the son of

[01:08:46] Of taranaga, I think I think partly because of the time there were mentions that the taiko couldn't conceive a son

[01:08:52] this was like his

[01:08:54] I don't know 100 the 10th or 20th attempt or something nobody else was able to give him a son

[01:08:59] So why was uh ashiba able to give him a son and then you're kind of thinking well, maybe it's not his son

[01:09:04] Maybe it's because it's taranaga. So um, yeah

[01:09:07] So I I I certainly suspected that back at the time, but I think it's something they didn't want to dwell on again

[01:09:11] It's a historical fiction based on a living person

[01:09:15] So maybe uh, james clavell when he was writing the novel didn't want to put a real fine point on it that this is

[01:09:20] This was not the actual heir to to the throne. It's actually somebody else's son. Maybe um, but

[01:09:27] It's possible. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah good stuff. Thank you, sandro for the feedback

[01:09:33] So, uh, please you've been enjoying the the series as well. Absolutely. Yeah, I'd love to hear your thoughts on the finale as well

[01:09:40] So email that into us over on youtube all in our chapter nine discussion

[01:09:43] I got a message in from sfin 13 who says why did the feedback you had last week say richard chamberlain is dead

[01:09:49] I can't find any articles that say he's passed

[01:09:52] Um, I just did I did check this out immediately after I got the message in from from sfin

[01:09:57] Thanks so much for sending us the message rich chamberlain hasn't passed away

[01:10:01] Um, the message that we got in from marta last week. Um, I think she may have just confused that

[01:10:07] He passed

[01:10:08] The age of 90 in march

[01:10:11] She may have seen that

[01:10:12] But what that actually meant was he turned 90 on march 31st. So and so I can see that

[01:10:18] Yeah, richard chamberlain, uh, it's very much alive very much alive

[01:10:21] I'm good celebrating his 90th birthday just a couple of weeks ago. So um, that's that's really good

[01:10:26] And I'm glad he's not passed away. So I'm really sorry that we actually said that my my sincere apologies for not checking

[01:10:32] On that I think we just we we just read it and continued on

[01:10:36] Um, but sfin did respond saying I remembered looking up richard chamberlain when the series started

[01:10:41] So it was fresh in my mind that he was alive. Thankfully he still is I listened to you guys through apple podcast

[01:10:46] And it's the second show I'm following with you the other is the boys and gen v keep up the good work

[01:10:51] Excellent stuff. Thank you sfin 13 for that and for uh,

[01:10:56] Sort of correcting us on richard chamberlain. Yes, sorry about that for all those listening

[01:11:02] And who thought that maybe rich chamberlain had passed away. He is alive and kicking

[01:11:08] Um, also on youtube at lemir ganalag 8310

[01:11:14] Said would you take suggestions of some possible spin-off miniseries? You might like to watch such as

[01:11:21] shogun the beshido code shogun the willow world of eddo

[01:11:26] Shogun battles of the faiths

[01:11:29] Catholics versus Protestants versus Buddhists shogun tales of wajiros stone garden

[01:11:36] Shogun seppuku of a warrior the permanent solution to a temporary problem

[01:11:42] Shogun yabashigi's book of death

[01:11:45] hashtag

[01:11:46] Katanas and kimonos rock like us. Thank you so much for those spin-off

[01:11:52] Suggestions really really good now if you're an executive of hulu or fx

[01:11:57] You may be considering a spin-off because the show has been massively popular

[01:12:01] Absolutely. What do you think? What's your favorite in there, john?

[01:12:04] I think the seppuku of a warrior the permanent solution to a temporary problem

[01:12:08] Yes, I quite like as well the willow world of eddo to see the battle between courtesans and the church

[01:12:15] Absolutely

[01:12:16] Happy great just throwing bottles back and forth across the street if you kill the rizan

[01:12:20] Excellent stuff. Thanks so much. Thanks for the feedback also over on youtube. David K

[01:12:26] 6269 said this was an amazing episode

[01:12:28] I saw lady maricow finally break down at the end of the battle at the gate when her spear attacks

[01:12:33] Were all being parried and trapped by a multitude of enemy spears

[01:12:36] But with the spearman clearly not striking to kill her

[01:12:38] She realizes finally that she can't obtain death in battle which she was hoping to obtain

[01:12:43] But must instead go through the mental and spiritual agony of having to kill herself

[01:12:47] And I think that is what makes her finally break down

[01:12:50] You're partially correct about the ritual itself

[01:12:52] The official shogun podcast explained that for female ritual suicides

[01:12:55] There may not have been a second or if there is that the second is really there for moral support

[01:13:00] And does not strike and behead the person as they do for male ritual suicides

[01:13:04] The reason is that females would position a knife low aiming up to at their heart

[01:13:08] And then she will fall forward onto the blade impaling herself

[01:13:11] Hopefully in the heart allowing her to die quickly

[01:13:13] I think the podcast stated that if they do not fall in the way that that impales their heart

[01:13:18] The woman will use a small knife

[01:13:19] I assume a second blade that they have ready for this purpose

[01:13:22] To cut her own throat and bleed out if the blow to the heart is not successful

[01:13:26] For men they will not seek to impale themselves in the heart

[01:13:29] But are supposed to cut from across their abdomens, which is extraordinarily painful

[01:13:33] But not immediately fatal people can linger for days before dying

[01:13:37] So males have seconds which will prevent such long suffering by decapitating them

[01:13:41] After the victim makes the required disemboweling cuts

[01:13:44] Very good

[01:13:45] Yes, the official podcast there bring in lots of the details

[01:13:48] Absolutely

[01:13:48] Yeah, I know we've mentioned this before but we are recording the episodes in advance

[01:13:52] Of them being released

[01:13:53] We actually released the podcast about an hour after the episodes come out

[01:13:56] Just purely because we want to give people a chance to listen to them

[01:13:59] But we don't listen to the official podcast in advance of recording our podcast

[01:14:03] So there are details that are there, of course by the makers

[01:14:06] They're steeped in this for years and years so they have much more knowledge about the detail behind it

[01:14:12] But it is interesting

[01:14:13] It is, it's really interesting

[01:14:14] So thanks David Kay for sending on those snippets of information

[01:14:21] It's really good

[01:14:23] Finally from YouTube at Joey Art Kay added

[01:14:27] Hostage taking was a common accepted practice back then

[01:14:30] There would be no need to hide it

[01:14:32] That part doesn't make sense

[01:14:34] Being a devout catholic marico would not have attempted sepicoot

[01:14:38] Having someone kill you under your direction is still suicide

[01:14:42] God isn't stupid

[01:14:44] Of course adultery is a sin too

[01:14:46] So this is really a slanderous portrayal of the character

[01:14:49] By the way women didn't do sepicoot

[01:14:53] They slit their neck arteries

[01:14:55] What is abuse now was not what was considered abuse in the 1600

[01:15:00] Buntaro just comes back from fighting for survival for 20 days and finds his wife living with a foreign man

[01:15:07] But later Taranaga gets 49 days to mourn his son

[01:15:10] Then he sees chemistry between them and she probably refused his advances later

[01:15:15] She got off easy to be honest that whole scene is ridiculous

[01:15:20] First off Buntaro would have killed Blackthorn immediately regardless of what Taranaga might say

[01:15:26] Second Taranaga would have never even considered insulting Buntaro or Marico so badly by having a woman of her class

[01:15:34] Living with a man let alone a foreigner that simply was not done

[01:15:38] Plus love had nothing to do with marriage at the class level most of the time

[01:15:43] They were arranged marriages and her duty was to please her husband

[01:15:47] Not look down on him despite him saving her life

[01:15:51] And they had other Japanese that could speak Portuguese. Why disgrace your best warrior by using her?

[01:15:58] She only has high status because she is Buntaro's wife

[01:16:02] She has no other position or title other than the daughter of a traitor that should be executed

[01:16:08] And a christian convert on top of it that a few years later would have been a death sentence

[01:16:13] Fiction is one thing, but ridiculous fantasy is another

[01:16:18] Oh, um strong words, uh Joey R.K. Um for sure really interesting opinion

[01:16:25] And I'm not entirely sure it's ridiculous fantasy. I think that you know, it's probably hugely complicated

[01:16:33] and in a sense

[01:16:35] Taranaga asked

[01:16:37] Marico to be

[01:16:39] His interpreter

[01:16:41] I think there was a wider plan for Marico on the basis of what happened to her father

[01:16:46] So I don't think um necessarily Taranaga

[01:16:50] Expected there to be a relationship that developed there

[01:16:54] And and indeed, you know, he says to Buntaro. Well, she is your wife. You can do

[01:16:59] What you want? Um, you know, there is that conversation. Uh, so I think it's

[01:17:05] A difficult one to have and I think I mean this is the problem you come at it from this

[01:17:10] Period of time with your thoughts and you know, in a sense, you know, you are right what?

[01:17:16] Abuse is now not necessarily considered abuse. Now. Yes hostage taking was common practice

[01:17:21] But equally then I do want to do what I just say

[01:17:24] It's still abuse whether it was considered abuse at the time or not

[01:17:27] We consider abuse now, but it was still abused by Buntaro

[01:17:30] And so Joey, I understand that you come to come at this with your opinion

[01:17:34] It's pretty clear that your opinion is very different from our opinion

[01:17:37] About the show and about the characterizations that we see here

[01:17:40] Yeah

[01:17:41] So while you may have the opinion that women were down traveling and were only there to please their husbands

[01:17:45] I would doubt that every single one felt the same in the 1600s

[01:17:48] They may have felt trapped in the situation and may have

[01:17:51] Outwardly portrayed that they were there just to support their husbands

[01:17:54] I think that's dealt with quite clearly in the show in the eight full fence where Mariko says

[01:17:58] She just absolutely will give Buntaro nothing. That is how she will live out her life being

[01:18:05] Stuck in this marriage with someone that doesn't love her and she doesn't love she will just give him nothing

[01:18:10] So um, so while your opinion of course is your opinion. It's always interesting to hear someone else's thoughts about it

[01:18:17] um

[01:18:19] Whether a devout catholic will always follow the teachings of the church

[01:18:23] I think we know from history that is that's not

[01:18:26] A binding way just because you're a catholic you will you will follow the catholic

[01:18:31] Teachings at all times marico trying her best to follow the teachings

[01:18:35] Knowing that sepico, which is part of japanese culture at the time would be considered suicide. So she is trying to manage that

[01:18:42] Well, I think it's interesting as well because you know, we have mariko

[01:18:47] In her conversation with toran aga say

[01:18:50] I am both

[01:18:52] effectively

[01:18:53] In the catholic faith. Yeah, and I am also

[01:18:57] A member of this clan why the clan and and also japanese japanese

[01:19:02] Yeah, and I think it's to that point which you know, I don't think anyone is a solitary

[01:19:09] position in life or identity whenever it is they they have different aspects here and that's how she

[01:19:17] um

[01:19:17] In a sense

[01:19:19] Tells toran aga that you can trust me. I won't do

[01:19:22] Things to further the catholic church and you're right, you know very much after this period christians were were

[01:19:30] persecuted and but at this moment, you know, it is a

[01:19:34] difficult relationship that happens here you have

[01:19:37] You know, it it's to that geopolitical element. I think

[01:19:42] With the the church

[01:19:45] effectively fronting for the portuguese as well. So it's not just about the church and absolutely

[01:19:52] having their own sort of

[01:19:54] strategies as to why the what they're doing there and so the japanese reciprocating that whether it's that they are

[01:20:03] amenable to that like some of the council regions. Yeah, and or

[01:20:10] Just think it it's strange because they're buddhist

[01:20:14] Well, absolutely

[01:20:14] But again, you know, we hear from a lot of these characters in this in this version of the story that they're for the

[01:20:19] Perstrings they're there for what goes into their wallet basically. So um, but interestingly

[01:20:24] Hosegawa grassia was catholic

[01:20:27] The character maricose based on um and the reason why she was able to be catholic at a time when catholics would be persecuted

[01:20:34] Um is because of her high station

[01:20:36] Uh, it's interesting that you mentioned pretty much a she does opinion of maricose that that she is a traitor who deserves

[01:20:43] To be killed. That's not toran aga's opinion over toran aga allied with her father

[01:20:47] And the the reason why they had the years of peace and the taiko as leader of japan is because

[01:20:53] Maricose father killed the former leader of japan. So

[01:20:57] So who was the mad king as we as we discussed earlier on in the season shown as the mad king. So, um

[01:21:04] It really is a perception of history

[01:21:06] That is that is the way you perceive it the way you choose to to see the story

[01:21:10] Of course will lead to your opinion about some of these characters

[01:21:12] But I think this story has been a really interesting version of that past. Yeah, absolutely. I think um, you know, it's it's

[01:21:21] Just really interesting as well. It generates the discussion. So absolutely. Yeah, that's great. Thanks very much

[01:21:28] Joey arts

[01:21:29] We have another bit of email feedback from hatamoto von doom

[01:21:34] Victor says yo warriors

[01:21:37] What a gut wrencher of an episode. I think lady maricou absolutely shines here

[01:21:43] She went toe to toe with a shido and stood her ground

[01:21:47] I found the scene of the attempted departure extremely riveting

[01:21:51] But then again, the entire episode was intense

[01:21:55] Lady maricou finally got what she wanted without taking her own life

[01:21:59] Yeah, but shige really tickles me. I didn't know samurai could tap dance

[01:22:05] I agree with the father visitor war is coming

[01:22:09] Sayonara hatamoto von doom

[01:22:13] Absolutely victor maricou is absolutely essential in this episode. She's fantastic and i'm glad the show gave her

[01:22:19] An entire episode to show her story in there and yabashige has just been stand out this season

[01:22:25] He's been absolutely fantastic right up until the end

[01:22:29] Well, yeah, absolutely

[01:22:30] I mean, I think yabashige is one of my favorite characters along with his nephew omie

[01:22:35] And I just really really like them in a sense that they feel like they're caught in the middle to some extent and i'll trust

[01:22:45] In a sense just trying to find the best way out, you know, and I think

[01:22:49] ultimately then with episode 10 seeing yabashige's

[01:22:54] kind of

[01:22:56] Almost slight insanity appear

[01:22:59] You know the regret of what happens. Yeah

[01:23:02] And you know, it's not what he meant to happen in that sense

[01:23:06] And i'm totally with you, you know, this is such a great episode for maricou in terms of both

[01:23:15] As a character and for the actor as well in terms of just the tension

[01:23:22] Throughout this episode absolutely absolutely. Thanks so much hatamoto von doom

[01:23:26] Yeah, thanks victor over on facebook jamie lawson says totally gripped throughout the episodes so gripped that it didn't feel like an hour had passed

[01:23:35] Toffee agree jamie

[01:23:37] Really really good tv here

[01:23:41] Absolutely

[01:23:43] Gripping yeah, I can't believe 10 episodes at past. No, absolutely one last comment from from youtube from christina burgh who says suicide

[01:23:50] Is a sin in the catholic faith but not in the protestant faith

[01:23:53] However, neda is the roman catholic church has lessened its stand somewhat. Yeah christina

[01:23:58] I suppose I was brought up as catholic as we've mentioned before and the podcast and john was brought up in the protestant faith

[01:24:04] As we as we talked about before so yeah, the opinions that the catholic church have about suicide or

[01:24:09] And yeah, they've changed I suppose over time but they were

[01:24:14] What's the word pre draconian? What would be the what would be the word?

[01:24:17] It's like you're completely excommunicated from the church after your death

[01:24:21] So uh, so yeah, it's about the clashing of those two cultures is one of the central pieces of the story

[01:24:27] The idea that john arrives in japan not knowing anything about japan and within his first day there

[01:24:33] He sees someone tried to commit sepaku. So trying to understand what's different in their mind

[01:24:37] And what's different and there are bringings and and their beliefs. So it's very interesting. Thanks. Thanks so much for that christina

[01:24:43] Yeah, thanks christina and finally over on facebook dr

[01:24:47] Bob philip says I didn't think I could get any more intense than last week the entire episode was perfectly paced

[01:24:53] Irresistible in momentum and shocking in the final explosive moment marco pitched her performance

[01:24:59] Exquisitely and jinsama had the bewildered reactor response of a mariner in the middle of a tropical storm

[01:25:05] Bishido's carefully constructed prison of politeness has collapsed

[01:25:09] I can't believe it's only one episode to the end of the series. Yeah, thanks dr. Bob

[01:25:14] Completely agree. I think last week's episode was

[01:25:17] Really just very masterful just stunning. Yeah. Yep. And you know, obviously

[01:25:22] If anas why doesn't get some kind of nomination for an award for that performance in the show

[01:25:27] Absolutely people are not watching our tv

[01:25:30] She was masterful. Thanks so much dr. Bob and thanks everybody for all of your feedback

[01:25:35] Um, I've been saying throughout the series and I think regular listeners to two podcast industries

[01:25:39] We aware that I usually listen to a few podcasts

[01:25:42] About the shows that we're covering just to kind of get it kind of

[01:25:45] Dip into what other people are covering the official podcast for showgun if you want more

[01:25:49] Information, it's a really good a quick half hour

[01:25:52] Interviews with the with the cast and crew definitely have a listen to that

[01:25:55] I've been also listening to the binge 10 tv podcast

[01:25:58] Which is an american podcast about the show and I just find that really really fun

[01:26:02] Three american guys who I think in the first episode say we're never going to pronounce any of the characters names right

[01:26:07] So we're going to make up nicknames for them all

[01:26:10] So that's that's been a lot of fun to listen to well. It's funny in my notes. John Blackthrone is jb

[01:26:15] And yabashige is yabs. It's always yabs. There you go

[01:26:19] Excellent the only way is oh exactly

[01:26:23] I'd also recommend for a

[01:26:26] Different take black girl couch reviews are starting her coverage of the show

[01:26:29] She's just done two episodes so far, but always fun to listen to it

[01:26:32] It's very different from two Irish guys talking about showgun as well

[01:26:36] But thanks so much for joining us for the entirety of showgun season one or the only season

[01:26:43] Well, absolutely

[01:26:44] But of course fellow warriors you're more than welcome to join us and subscribe to us over on tv podcast industry

[01:26:52] Dot com and of course, please

[01:26:54] Leave a review

[01:26:56] I will share your thoughts

[01:26:57] But of course share the podcast because sharing the podcast is of course sharing the love

[01:27:02] And we will as we've said previously we will we are still around doing the star wars the bad bat

[01:27:09] Just two episodes left

[01:27:10] And we will be moving into dead boy detective

[01:27:15] In the coming week as well as

[01:27:18] tales of the empire

[01:27:20] animated

[01:27:22] Short series coming out on may the 4th

[01:27:25] Yeah, if you want to know what else is coming up for tv podcast industries this year pop on over to tv podcast industries dot com

[01:27:31] There's a little note that I have up there of shows coming in 2024

[01:27:35] I think the page is just tv podcast industries dot com slash 2024

[01:27:39] Lots of stuff coming up

[01:27:40] We're returning to the boys in the middle of summer of this year

[01:27:43] We've got the last season of umbrella academy coming up later this year

[01:27:46] We've got the fourth season of the witcher coming up as well

[01:27:49] That just confirmed to be ending at season five possibly

[01:27:53] The acolyte as well we made cover we need to see how that

[01:27:57] Fits into our schedules. Yeah for sure. But I certainly would love to um

[01:28:03] Take that on yeah, that would be really cool. That'd be really cool

[01:28:05] But it's been excellent talking about shogun

[01:28:07] This was our big our big swing for our 10th anniversary year podcast talking about a historical fiction show

[01:28:14] Which we don't normally talk about so I hope you enjoyed listening along with us and joining us for our coverage of shogun

[01:28:19] As much as we've enjoyed recording us. Yes absolutely

[01:28:22] until

[01:28:23] Next time fellow warriors

[01:28:25] Remember keep watching and of course keep listening. Bye. Bye

[01:28:55] Oh

[01:29:25] Oh

[01:29:55] Oh

[01:30:25] Oh

[01:30:55] Oh