The Penguin Episode 7 Review

[00:00:00] This is The Penguin Podcast on TV Podcast Industries. We're talking about the penultimate episode of The Penguin, Episode 7, Top Pass.

[00:00:08] All those years working for my family, I never gave much thought to Oz's childhood.

[00:00:13] I know the highlights, of course. You know, he loves making a meal out of those.

[00:00:18] I'm an East Side kid. I got a bum leg. No father.

[00:00:23] But those things don't make you a monster, do they?

[00:00:27] Someone shaped him.

[00:00:32] Okay, you wanna know about my boy, Aswell? Please.

[00:00:38] He's always two steps ahead. All those years, driving you around.

[00:00:42] Cleaning up after you and your family. He was watching. Studying.

[00:00:47] He knows this game better than you.

[00:00:49] You changed your name. So what? You okay, you think everything's different now.

[00:00:54] That don't change the game, sweetheart.

[00:00:57] Drugs is drugs. Crack, bliss, dope, drops.

[00:01:01] Same winners, same losers.

[00:01:03] So, you call yourself whatever the hell you want, but...

[00:01:06] When my Oswald puts a bullet in that pretty little skull of yours, I'll be tap-dancing on your grave.

[00:01:41] Welcome back, fellow Gothamites, to our Penguin Podcast, where we're chatting about the penultimate episode of the Penguin Episode 7 Top Hat.

[00:01:48] I had to pause there for a second because there's too many pieces left.

[00:01:51] Penultimate penguins.

[00:01:52] The penultimate penguin podcast.

[00:01:54] I am one of your hosts, Derek.

[00:01:56] Hello there, fellow Gothamites. Hello, fellow Waddlers.

[00:02:00] Yes, I am one of your other hosts, John.

[00:02:03] Great to be back for this penultimate episode.

[00:02:05] Uh-huh.

[00:02:07] Yeah, a bit of Fred Astaire here.

[00:02:09] The ship is.

[00:02:10] Tapping away.

[00:02:11] Yeah.

[00:02:11] For me, just another really, really good episode.

[00:02:16] Yeah, it really was.

[00:02:17] Just, I'm loving this series.

[00:02:20] And I know that old Colin Farrell, you know, had to go through a hell of a lot to get the prosthetics on, the makeup.

[00:02:29] Oh, yeah.

[00:02:30] And just, I think, just how much he's sweated as well, I've heard him talk about.

[00:02:34] Yeah.

[00:02:34] But I really wish he, he decides it's worth it for another season somehow.

[00:02:42] I know.

[00:02:42] Like even connected into the second movie and another little sort of progression and evolution.

[00:02:48] And certainly with Lauren LaFranc, I think, just think she's really hit a sweet spot here with the characters.

[00:02:57] Yeah.

[00:02:57] I mean, in some ways, I hope that they all survive for a potential season two.

[00:03:03] I just really hope there is, you know, but we'll see.

[00:03:07] I can't imagine it.

[00:03:08] I really can't.

[00:03:09] I know, I know.

[00:03:09] Such a shame.

[00:03:09] I have a feeling maybe they'll be able to coax Colin Farrell back for a second season sometime down the road.

[00:03:15] But you gotta worry about that thing in the background of James Gunn taking over the DC universe and all of these kind of projects that are sitting outside his new DC universe.

[00:03:25] We're very lucky to get the extension of the Batman movie and this and then a new Batman movie.

[00:03:30] I think that's all going to stop once the James Gunn universe starts kicking off over time, unfortunately.

[00:03:37] But this is exceptional.

[00:03:39] I was laughing today and I'm going to have a little spoiler in here for the episode.

[00:03:43] So if you haven't watched the episode, go watch it and then come back to us.

[00:03:47] But I saw a review of this episode saying nothing really happened here.

[00:03:50] It ended the same way as the episode started.

[00:03:52] I was going, but Sal Maroney's gone.

[00:03:54] Like that's a massive moment in Gotham.

[00:03:57] Sal Maroney is no longer a player in this city.

[00:04:00] That's a huge thing.

[00:04:01] He was a player at the start of the Batman movie and has been a crime boss in loads of different iterations of the Batman.

[00:04:08] So that moment in itself is a huge moment in the mythology of this version of Batman, right?

[00:04:13] Of the Batman universe.

[00:04:14] Yeah.

[00:04:14] I think so.

[00:04:15] I was laughing at that review and that was from a major eight list.

[00:04:18] So, well, that's it.

[00:04:20] This to me is the wide angle shot of what's going on.

[00:04:25] So it takes time to ultimately yet not get very far along the timeline.

[00:04:32] Yeah.

[00:04:32] But an awful lot happens and an awful lot is learned for both the audience by seeing the flashback.

[00:04:39] Yeah.

[00:04:39] But equally, that's reflective of Sophia effectively interrogating and learning about Oz by having his own mother kidnapped and held at the Falcone family residence.

[00:04:54] Exactly.

[00:04:54] So I like that kind of synergy.

[00:04:57] And I think that's what's, that's the interesting thing here is both the audience and Sophia are learning an awful lot about Oz.

[00:05:06] Absolutely.

[00:05:07] Absolutely.

[00:05:07] And I feel that's so important.

[00:05:09] It's a TV show at the end of the day, you know, I feel sometimes with those kinds of reviews, what they really want is a one, a one line Wikipedia synopsis of what happens in the series rather than actually watching and enjoying these characters with each other.

[00:05:20] Like Christine Milioti, we've mentioned her so many times as Sophia Giganti is such a huge presence in the show and such an important part of this world.

[00:05:28] I mean, never really knew her before the show.

[00:05:30] We've seen the character before in other, in other iterations like Gotham, like some of the animated movies, but her version of this character is huge.

[00:05:37] We never would have got her if we hadn't got this series and the story and the way it's being told.

[00:05:41] And I think it's so.

[00:05:42] No.

[00:05:43] And I mean, Sophia goes on a roller coaster in this episode, ups and downs of what she's doing to Gia, but also whether she just wants to throw it all in or like, what does she want?

[00:05:57] Who is she?

[00:05:58] Exactly.

[00:05:58] And, you know, it's a lot of development for her.

[00:06:05] Yeah.

[00:06:05] And in fact, you know, she's questioning it because of how, you know, that fantastic face off between her and Frances.

[00:06:16] Yeah.

[00:06:17] Yeah.

[00:06:17] But I think we should get into our spoiler-filled discussion.

[00:06:20] I think we should.

[00:06:21] We'll have everything spoiled.

[00:06:22] And just before we do, though, just a reminder, if you haven't subscribed, please head on over to tvpodcastindustries.com where you can subscribe on any ornithological or gangster-loving podcast player of your choice.

[00:06:38] Thanks, of course, to those of you who have already subscribed to the podcast.

[00:06:43] You can also send in your thoughts on all things about The Penguin to feedback at tvpodcastindustries.com as well as the answers to enter into the Iceberg Lounge pub quiz that we're holding for this series of The Penguin.

[00:07:02] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:07:03] I've finally got the chance to, finally got the time to put up the questions for the Iceberg Lounge pub quiz on our website.

[00:07:09] So if you've missed any of them so far, pop on over to the website at tvpodcastindustries.com, click on pub quizzes, and you'll get the two pub quizzes that we've got active at the moment for Agatha all along and our Iceberg Lounge pub quiz up there as well.

[00:07:21] All the questions there?

[00:07:22] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:07:23] With that, let us get into our spoiler-filled discussion.

[00:07:28] Derek, what are some of the episode details?

[00:07:31] Well, the show is based on characters created by Bill Finger and Bob Kane for Detective Comics.

[00:07:35] It's spinning out of the movie The Batman by Matt Reeves and under showrunner Lauren LaFrancq.

[00:07:40] This episode was written by Vladimir Shvetko.

[00:07:43] This is his first episode of The Penguin, but he got his big break on the gangster TV show Power,

[00:07:47] where he was involved in writing and story editing of over 30 episodes across the main show and its spinoffs.

[00:07:52] So he's definitely been involved in the gangster world of TV before.

[00:07:55] Excellent stuff.

[00:07:57] Yeah, I don't know that show.

[00:07:58] Yeah, Power, I think it has three different spinoffs of it.

[00:08:02] You'd recognize it because it's called Power and then Power Book 1, Book 2, Book 3, Book 4.

[00:08:07] So I've seen it advertised in loads of places, but I don't think it made it over to Europe on any of our channels.

[00:08:13] Okay, yeah.

[00:08:14] Around.

[00:08:14] But this episode is also directed by Kevin Bray, who directed last week's episode of The Penguin as well.

[00:08:19] So getting the two episodes back to back.

[00:08:21] Excellent stuff.

[00:08:23] John, do you want to tell us what they gave us with your synopsis for The Penguin Episode 7?

[00:08:27] Top hat.

[00:08:28] Sure.

[00:08:29] When he was a boy, Oz Cobb was resentful of the attention that his mother gave to his brothers, Jack and Benny.

[00:08:36] He wanted all of her focus to himself.

[00:08:39] And after they play a joke on him during a game of flashlight hide-and-seek in the old trolley tunnels,

[00:08:45] Oz leaves his brothers trapped inside an overflowing sewer tunnel where they drown.

[00:08:50] In the present, Oz returns to his apartment and finds an injured Victor who reveals that Sofia Gigante has kidnapped his mother, Francis.

[00:09:00] Oz sends Victor to find an army for him right before Salvatore Moroni arrives at the apartment with his men.

[00:09:07] Moroni beats Oz and makes Oz take him to his underground lair where he intends to seize Oz's base of operations.

[00:09:14] But Oz and his men stage an ambush and Moroni dies of a harsh attack while fighting the Penguin.

[00:09:21] Meanwhile, Sofia has Dr. Rush interrogate Francis Cobb about Oz's weaknesses,

[00:09:27] while Sofia goes to visit the last surviving member of the Falcone family, Gia Vitti.

[00:09:33] The young orphan girl intends to cooperate with the police.

[00:09:38] Disillusioned after seeing the pain she has caused Gia,

[00:09:40] Sofia considers accepting Oz's ultimatum to trade Francis for his bliss supply.

[00:09:47] But Rush convinces her to go through with her desire to see Oz suffer.

[00:09:52] During the trade, Sofia sends in a bomb instead of his mother that destroys Oz's base and kills his entire crew.

[00:10:00] Oz survives and resurfaces, only to be knocked out by GCPD detective William Kenzie

[00:10:07] to be brought to Sofia Giganti at the Monroe Metropole, where she is holding Francis hostage.

[00:10:14] Evidently, Dr. Rush got quite a lot of information out of Francis if they're at the Monroe Metropole with her at the end of the episode.

[00:10:23] Yeah.

[00:10:23] Given that's quite a big location in the history of those two characters of Oz and Francis.

[00:10:28] We see as well, yeah.

[00:10:29] We see back in the flashback at the end.

[00:10:34] It's just a little bit of the flashback that creeps in at the end of this episode.

[00:10:37] Exactly.

[00:10:38] But primarily, that flashback is right at the start.

[00:10:42] Yeah.

[00:10:42] Well, let's kick on to our case file for this episode and onto our top five case notes.

[00:10:47] With case note number one, when I was a boy.

[00:10:50] I had to make reference to the Kingpin and his flashback story from Daredevil John.

[00:10:55] Yeah, yes, indeed.

[00:10:56] Our other big show, Daredevil, of course, that we cover on TV podcast industries, returning next year.

[00:11:01] But it was always the way that Vincent D'Onofrio presented his character of the Kingpin,

[00:11:06] was that everything tied back to the big incident of what happened to him as a child.

[00:11:10] And here we have the story of Oz being filled in and what happened to him when he was a boy.

[00:11:14] What was the big moment that changed?

[00:11:16] It starts out with just a small moment of Oz in the apartment with Francis.

[00:11:20] She's working away on a Saturday afternoon.

[00:11:22] He's trying to encourage her to have some time with him, to spend some time with him, give up work for the day.

[00:11:28] And she really does dote on him.

[00:11:30] She's absolutely doting on Oz.

[00:11:32] We have that same phrase from her.

[00:11:33] Oh, my big bull of a boy.

[00:11:35] You know, you're growing up so fast.

[00:11:37] You're getting so handsome now.

[00:11:39] And then his brothers come in and interrupt us.

[00:11:42] Yeah, I mean, they're playing zombies, really, which is quite cool.

[00:11:46] And yeah, I mean, you just see the little green-eyed monster in Oz here, the jealousy,

[00:11:53] because they knock over some of her paperwork off the table.

[00:11:57] Yeah.

[00:11:58] She's effectively doing the accounts.

[00:12:00] What we really learn as well in this flashback is that she does the books and accounts for Rex Calabresi.

[00:12:10] Yes.

[00:12:10] Matched a few times.

[00:12:11] Oz is kind of childhood hero.

[00:12:15] And a local gangster.

[00:12:16] And a local gangster.

[00:12:17] So, you know, they knock the paperwork off.

[00:12:21] And in a sense, Oz, I guess, is feeling that they're going to get told off.

[00:12:25] And in the end, she kind of brushes it aside and joins in the zombie fun.

[00:12:31] And after just really having told Oz that, you know, we will watch the movie soon.

[00:12:39] I need to finish the work.

[00:12:40] So, I think you see a little bit of the green-eyed monster there with Oz towards his two brothers, Jack and Benny.

[00:12:49] Yeah.

[00:12:49] And certainly that resentfulness for the attention being given by his mother to him.

[00:12:58] I mean, in effect, as you say, he's wanting all of his mother's attention.

[00:13:03] So, that kind of neediness.

[00:13:05] Yes.

[00:13:06] So, again, I like this little insight.

[00:13:09] But ultimately, Francis tells him to go out and play and to be back as the lights start to come on.

[00:13:19] Yes.

[00:13:20] You know?

[00:13:20] And again, you see how Oz is kind of clinging to her side, not wanting to do that.

[00:13:25] But she says, no, you need to work your leg and your foot to build the strength in it.

[00:13:29] And so, he goes out and seemingly, you know, a normal or relatively normal brothers.

[00:13:38] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:13:39] Yeah, yeah.

[00:13:40] Sort of situation.

[00:13:41] Yeah.

[00:13:41] You have Jack being given this task as well before they start to play to hand one of the account books to Rex Calabresi.

[00:13:50] Yeah.

[00:13:50] I guess the cooked books.

[00:13:52] Yeah, so so.

[00:13:53] So, you know, you see Oz wanting to interact with Rex Calabresi.

[00:13:59] Jack kind of keeping him back and away from Rex.

[00:14:05] And mainly, I think, for Oz's own good.

[00:14:08] He's like saying he's not a good guy.

[00:14:10] This man.

[00:14:11] Well, you see Rex dragging somebody out of himself and his men, dragging a shop owner out of his shop to beat him up effectively.

[00:14:19] And it is Jack saying, let's just not do this today.

[00:14:23] We'll give it back.

[00:14:23] Give it to him another day when he's in a better mood.

[00:14:25] And it's Oz's fault.

[00:14:26] Oz is like, Rex, you know, trying to get his attention from him.

[00:14:30] Yeah, exactly.

[00:14:30] So, they have to give him the books.

[00:14:32] They have to go over and talk to him.

[00:14:33] And they are kind of indicating that they want to get Jack to work for them.

[00:14:40] So, they kind of mention that he's going to be going into the reserve forces in the future.

[00:14:44] You know, he's going to be a stand-up kid in the future.

[00:14:48] In other words, one that we can bring into our work.

[00:14:52] But Oz is really trying to get his attention.

[00:14:55] I think what I do like about this flashback, and we'll go into a little bit more of it in a second.

[00:14:59] But what I do like about this flashback is it isn't like in a lot of other shows where there's one moment that flips Oz into being a bad person.

[00:15:08] And already, before we even get to the tunnels, already you see that Oz is a very different person than most other people would be in all of these situations.

[00:15:17] He's already getting really jealous about his mom and his brothers, his older and younger brother.

[00:15:22] He's the middle kid here.

[00:15:22] It's not like the eldest who feels left behind when the younger brother comes around or anything like that, firstly.

[00:15:28] But also the idea that he wants to get the attention of the local gangster and wants to work for him.

[00:15:34] You know that he's already an odd kid with odd perceptions about how people should interact with each other.

[00:15:41] Yeah, and I guess just having the disability, he feels different maybe.

[00:15:46] Or he has stayed closer to his mom because of that.

[00:15:52] So, you can tell he's different from his brothers.

[00:15:54] There's a slight different, as you say, mindset to at least Rex Calabrese that you see in this instance.

[00:16:03] Yeah, so I kind of like this, how the flashback brings this out quite succinctly, really.

[00:16:09] And I think no more than with the flashlight tag that they played in the old trolley tunnels.

[00:16:17] Interestingly, it's the same trolley tunnel as Oz has set up the Bliss operation now.

[00:16:24] Yeah, it absolutely is.

[00:16:25] And also we see him find the little coin that gave him the inspiration to get in there in the first place.

[00:16:30] When we saw that a couple of episodes ago, we saw Oz find the same trolley token, I guess.

[00:16:37] But yeah, they played this flashlight tag in the tunnels where effectively the rules are that you have to shine the flashlight in the other person's face or else you haven't found them.

[00:16:49] And the joke that the other two kids play on him is they get into a place where he can't possibly climb into and they could get away from him really easily if he has to get down there.

[00:16:58] And Oz freaks out.

[00:17:00] Oz, as we've seen through the rest of his life in this point, Oz completely overreacts to this joke that they play.

[00:17:07] Well, he tries to get involved.

[00:17:09] He tries to go down, but slips, falls, and he's kind of like, screw you guys.

[00:17:13] I can't get down there, you know?

[00:17:16] And in that moment, he closes the kind of the tunnel door or hatch that they've used to go down there.

[00:17:27] What I really kind of quite like about this is just before they go into the tunnels, they talk about the rain coming.

[00:17:34] And you see the storm clouds across Gotham.

[00:17:37] Yeah.

[00:17:37] And it felt very reminiscent of that computer game to me, Heavy Rain.

[00:17:42] Certainly when Oz is back in the apartment with his mom watching the movie like he's wanted to do.

[00:17:49] He's made the excuse that Benny and Jack have gone to the cinema.

[00:17:55] And I think that's when you realize that, yes, he's locked them in there.

[00:18:00] I mean, does he think they're going to drown in there?

[00:18:05] I don't know.

[00:18:06] But.

[00:18:07] I think he does.

[00:18:08] Maybe.

[00:18:09] Maybe.

[00:18:10] But I just don't know.

[00:18:11] I don't know how you would know that you would have that big, heavy rainfall event that causes it to flood up to the hat.

[00:18:20] Well, we're calling it a tunnel that they went and hid in.

[00:18:22] It's actually an overflow tunnel.

[00:18:24] So the overflow tunnel is the place that would fill up with the rain going into it.

[00:18:29] The reason why I think Oz knows, and maybe we'll get another flashback in the final episode of the season where we get a little bit more here.

[00:18:35] But the reason why I think he knows is because we keep seeing Oz check the rain and smiling.

[00:18:40] Very happy to himself that his brothers are not coming back at all.

[00:18:43] It's not even that he smiles.

[00:18:44] He just looks massively content and full of himself.

[00:18:50] But that's what I mean.

[00:18:51] I mean, I'm assuming he does know that that's going to happen.

[00:18:54] But at the same time, I wonder if he just is content because he's like, well, they're locked in there.

[00:19:00] Not that he necessarily wanted to kill them.

[00:19:03] And I mean, it's just coming back to the earlier moment with Victor where after Victor has killed Squid and he says, it gets easier.

[00:19:11] Yeah.

[00:19:12] So actually, this would have been like his first kill.

[00:19:17] Yeah.

[00:19:18] And it's his brothers.

[00:19:19] Yeah.

[00:19:19] And it may not have been fully deliberate.

[00:19:21] Yes, he intended to lock them in there.

[00:19:23] Right.

[00:19:24] And in a sense, that's what he's meaning.

[00:19:27] But still, it's ambiguous.

[00:19:29] It is.

[00:19:30] It is.

[00:19:31] Again, I like that because it's been a huge trend over the last decade or so, taking villains and giving them origin stories that make some good guys who are just in a bad situation.

[00:19:41] And Oz is not in a bad situation here.

[00:19:42] He's in a loving family.

[00:19:44] Yes, it's a one parent family.

[00:19:45] And his mom's working every hour of the day.

[00:19:47] But did you notice the other thing that he says to her about the boys going off to the cinema?

[00:19:52] He says to her, they took the money that Rex gave you and went off to the cinema with it.

[00:19:57] And I wasn't able to go with them.

[00:19:58] They didn't take me with them.

[00:19:59] So he adds a little layer underneath of them doing something really wrong.

[00:20:03] Taking, you know, this woman worked on a Saturday all day to get the books done.

[00:20:08] And she still didn't even get paid for it.

[00:20:10] If underneath it all, Oz is saying, your son stole that money from you and went off to the cinema.

[00:20:15] Leave me, poor little me behind.

[00:20:17] Come take me in your arms.

[00:20:19] No, absolutely.

[00:20:19] So, yeah.

[00:20:21] I think this is one of those stories.

[00:20:23] And I think this is what I like about it, at least at the moment, is that they're not telling you Oz was a good kid turned bad by circumstance.

[00:20:29] It's telling you Oz made a decision here and that decision formed who he became in the future.

[00:20:34] But it was his decision.

[00:20:35] And there's also strong hints from Sophia is to what extent his mother was involved in him becoming the man that he is.

[00:20:46] Absolutely.

[00:20:47] Yeah.

[00:20:47] I think the thing I do like, though, about, in a sense, this whole little scene is I love the fact that, you know, he sits down with his mom to watch the movie Top Hat with Fred Astaire.

[00:20:59] And I love the fact that as the tempo increases in the black and white movie with the tap dancing, you have the danger rising for Jack and Benny as the water pours in.

[00:21:13] You have Oz looking at the window, seeing how much rain.

[00:21:18] And it just raises this tension without showing anything.

[00:21:21] You just see the door with water starting to sort of spill through it, them shouting out for help.

[00:21:28] But just the increasing tempo of the music and the tap dancing from the movie just lends itself to really heightening the tension here to the point where then it just goes silent.

[00:21:41] And you have the water kind of just, you know, zipping out from the gaps by the door.

[00:21:50] Effectively, the two boys have drowned.

[00:21:53] I thought that was a really, really good touch.

[00:21:56] It really was.

[00:21:57] Yeah.

[00:21:57] I thought it really effective.

[00:21:59] Really having two people on a couch, but making it perilous for Jack and Benny.

[00:22:06] Yeah, exactly.

[00:22:06] Yeah, yeah.

[00:22:08] So, yeah, a stark moment there at the formation of Oz, I guess, as a younger guy.

[00:22:14] And while we're talking about the flashbacks, that's kind of the end just as it goes to the credits.

[00:22:18] But later on, we get the other flashback.

[00:22:20] Oz has talked about this earlier on in the season, about the fact that his mom was shut in from that point onwards after his two brothers died.

[00:22:29] We'd never heard the story of how they died or had any kind of explanation for what had happened.

[00:22:34] Just heard the city took them.

[00:22:35] Yeah.

[00:22:36] But here we have Oz coming and serving her dinner outside of her door.

[00:22:40] And you kind of get it from Oz, probably because we've heard the story earlier on in the season.

[00:22:44] But you get from him that he hasn't had much interaction, whether she has been shut inside.

[00:22:48] And the surprise on his face when she suddenly arrives fully dressed in her cocktail dress, wants to go out, tells him that he needs to get his suit on and takes him out to the Monroe Metropole to go dancing to some jazz for the night.

[00:23:28] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:23:30] Until I get you the best life.

[00:23:32] Yes.

[00:23:33] And that is his drive from that time.

[00:23:39] Yeah.

[00:23:39] And has been through this series so far is for his mother.

[00:23:46] Yeah.

[00:23:47] And, you know, that's his bedrock here.

[00:23:51] Exactly.

[00:23:51] Exactly.

[00:23:51] So it'll be interesting.

[00:23:53] And it's at the Monroe where you see Francis being taken to by Sophia.

[00:24:02] Now, it's a dilapidated Monroe at this stage, not the heyday of back in the day.

[00:24:10] Yeah.

[00:24:10] But, yes, it's just a really nice touch.

[00:24:14] It links back to previous stories from Oz where he talks about this event where him and his ma go on a date effectively.

[00:24:23] Yeah.

[00:24:23] And you have this all playing out here.

[00:24:26] And you're right.

[00:24:27] It's just that little extra layer that's added in in the conversation where to this young kid after this traumatic experience where she shut herself away.

[00:24:35] She told him, it's your job to provide for me.

[00:24:37] It's your job to make sure I get everything I need in my life because I can't go on living the life I've been living.

[00:24:44] And it's your responsibility.

[00:24:45] So it's almost an extra layer adding in that drive for Oz, as you say.

[00:24:52] Absolutely.

[00:24:52] Yeah.

[00:24:53] Let's get on to our case note number two because Sal Moroni finally finds Oz in our case note number two.

[00:25:00] We were wondering what was going to happen because last week's episode ended on that big cliffhanger of Sophia Giganti arriving in the apartment while Victor and Francis were dancing away.

[00:25:11] And she arrives in there with the crowbar in hand.

[00:25:15] And after the first flashback, after the opening credits, we have Oz arriving back to his apartment, seeing that his plan with the local councilman had worked.

[00:25:24] He got the power back on.

[00:25:26] He's delighted with himself.

[00:25:27] And as he walks in, he finds Vic knocked out on the floor.

[00:25:31] I guess the crowbar having taken effect.

[00:25:34] Interesting that Sophia didn't kill Victor, though.

[00:25:36] That is true, actually.

[00:25:38] Good that she didn't.

[00:25:39] I'm delighted she didn't.

[00:25:40] No, I'm pleased she didn't.

[00:25:41] I wonder whether it was just to, you know, she probably doesn't really think of this kid as anything.

[00:25:48] He's just some driver.

[00:25:49] Just some driver.

[00:25:50] And certainly in that moment, maybe not understanding the significance of Victor looking after Oz's mother.

[00:25:58] Yeah.

[00:25:58] I'm just thinking it's the driver who's just got all the great jobs, hasn't he?

[00:26:04] You know, looking also after the dodgy old mother of Oz that he's kept hidden for the night, for whatever reason.

[00:26:12] So she probably just sort of knocks him out so that he causes no problem.

[00:26:18] I mean, I'm glad he survived a crowbar over the head.

[00:26:23] But I mean, even just Oz waking him up, he's shaking him and slapping around the head.

[00:26:27] And I'm like, that's the last thing Victor needs.

[00:26:29] Absolutely.

[00:26:29] But I kind of like this whole moment, the panic you see in Oz's face.

[00:26:36] Victor effectively again being entrusted as you hear the van and the cars screech to a halt outside of the apartment.

[00:26:46] And, you know, you see Oz noticing the Moronis and Salvatore turning up.

[00:26:54] So he gets Victor out, giving him the instructor, you know, get me an army kid, you know, which is effectively he's looking for Victor to rally the other leaders of the other smaller gangs like Zhao of the Triad.

[00:27:09] Yeah, as we saw on the Gold Summit last week and last week's episode where they've now all aligned together.

[00:27:14] So Victor's being sent off to get those gang heads and their gangs together to create an army for Oz to go up against Sal Moroni and Sofia Giganti.

[00:27:24] Yeah, I think the great thing about this moment between Moroni and Oz is just the fact that Moroni is so unhinged here.

[00:27:35] You know, you have Sofia's men sort of trying to hold him back and just trying to remind him that they have, you know, he's got a deal with Sofia.

[00:27:46] Like he is to live at this moment in time.

[00:27:49] You've got Sal beating Oz over the back and around the body with his own golf club that he found at Oz's apartment.

[00:28:00] You know, as he's beating up Oz, he's like, you know, we've got your mother, we've got your family now.

[00:28:07] And, you know, the real hint that this is not going to end well.

[00:28:12] And I mean, actually, this plays out all the way through while Salvatore is still alive effectively.

[00:28:18] I mean, you know, he has this really nice moment where he says, I'm going to take your base of operations.

[00:28:25] Once we have that, we're going back to Sofia's.

[00:28:30] The only thing we've got left to decide is how you're going to die.

[00:28:35] So I like this.

[00:28:36] I like the fact that he calls Sofia up.

[00:28:40] They have that call and she's like, effectively, how does that feel?

[00:28:43] Good.

[00:28:44] Yeah.

[00:28:44] You know, and it's like, yes, but I want more.

[00:28:48] And she goes, I know he will kill him soon enough.

[00:28:51] So I just love this kind of blind hatred that is on display here from Sal.

[00:29:00] It's just so good because that's where Oz sees the chink to really sort of rile up Sal.

[00:29:11] Oh, absolutely.

[00:29:12] Absolutely.

[00:29:12] But it's like, it felt like sending your rabbit dog out to get the bunny rabbit and bring it home.

[00:29:19] You know, there's moments and how Clancy Brown plays this Sal Moroni as just so unhinged.

[00:29:25] He looks like he's salivating at the possibility.

[00:29:27] He gets the opportunity to finally get his own back on Oz.

[00:29:30] You know, if you remember most of last episode, Oz was dodging them and he's finally got him in his sights.

[00:29:36] And you can just almost feel the drool dripping from him waiting to kill this thing in front of him.

[00:29:42] He's saying to him, you know, as he hits him with the golf club, you know, how does this feel now?

[00:29:46] There's no one restraining me now.

[00:29:47] We're outside of Blackgate.

[00:29:48] There's no prison officers to help you out.

[00:29:50] I could kill you right here.

[00:29:52] And you can see the panic on the Gigante man who's looking at him going, you can't kill him.

[00:29:57] You can't kill him.

[00:29:58] We've made a promise.

[00:29:59] We have to bring him home.

[00:29:59] And Moroni's kind of going, no, no, don't worry.

[00:30:01] I will.

[00:30:02] And then gets another hit in, you know.

[00:30:03] Well, it's even, I love the fact he does the full on headbutt of Oz as well.

[00:30:08] Because Oz is pleading that he keeps him alive, that he keeps his mother alive.

[00:30:14] And I really, you know, Sal digging back down into that, you know, torturous memory for him where he's like, I was there in Blackgate.

[00:30:24] Where you, you know, promise me that you wouldn't touch, you wouldn't hurt my family, you know, my wife and my son.

[00:30:34] Where you pledge this to me as a man of honor.

[00:30:38] So I will give you the same deal that you gave me.

[00:30:42] Nothing will happen to her effectively, you know, but I'm totally lying.

[00:30:47] Exactly.

[00:30:47] You promised that to me.

[00:30:49] Yeah, exactly.

[00:30:49] And I just thought it was a great way, the way this played out.

[00:30:55] And I was kind of surprised that Oz actually did bring them to his hideout directly.

[00:30:59] Because he says, I'm not going to do anything for you until you prove that she's alive.

[00:31:02] But then the next time we see them, they're down in the hideout.

[00:31:05] With his men surrounding the entrance, all of his men notice something weird is happening when the car is driving into the production area.

[00:31:12] And then there's gunfire and a lot of them start to drop to the ground as they're being taken out by Moroni's men.

[00:31:19] Moroni then instantly walks in and says, it's now my operation.

[00:31:22] You guys are working for me now and you're working for the Gigante family.

[00:31:26] Take a second, take one minute, basically, he says.

[00:31:29] And then he takes, he literally takes a breath and goes right back to work.

[00:31:33] But Oz takes this moment to exploit the weakness that he knows Sal has.

[00:31:40] As I said, Sal was salivating at the prospect of having the business and killing Oz.

[00:31:46] And Oz instantly starts working on him.

[00:31:50] Telling him that it was the smell that got to him.

[00:31:52] It was the smell of burning flesh.

[00:31:54] But it's the hair, the burning hair that sticks out.

[00:31:57] And then, oh, then says about his wife, was she wearing some kind of special hairspray that made it smell so, so different?

[00:32:04] And you can tell that really gets Sal.

[00:32:07] But one of Oz's men is ready to help him out.

[00:32:12] Gets the lights off.

[00:32:13] And Oz takes that opportunity to bait Sal into a fight.

[00:32:18] A real shocking moment after the fight.

[00:32:20] But they do have a good punch out there.

[00:32:22] Oz is throwing a couple of fists at Sal and gets a couple of good punches in.

[00:32:26] But Sal has a heart attack in the middle of the fight and dies right there.

[00:32:31] Yeah, I think this was a really, really good choice here.

[00:32:35] Because, you know, maybe not for people who wanted to see a big showdown between Sal and Oz.

[00:32:44] But it is the point that Oz maybe just got it in before Sal gasps his last breath.

[00:32:54] You know, where, like, Oz is like, what are you doing?

[00:33:00] You know, let's go continue the fight.

[00:33:02] He doesn't really understand.

[00:33:04] And then he kind of orders, instructs Sal to look at him.

[00:33:09] He says, I beat you.

[00:33:11] I win.

[00:33:12] Like, it's the fact he's being denied the gloat.

[00:33:17] Exactly.

[00:33:17] The prize of gloating.

[00:33:19] The prize of saying, I beat you.

[00:33:22] And it's the reason why he shoots him anyway.

[00:33:25] It can almost continuing the conversation, even though Sal Moroney has died from the heart attack.

[00:33:34] And I'm pretty certain that Sal is dead before he hears any of the gloating from Oz, any of the I've won.

[00:33:42] Yeah.

[00:33:43] And I think that I think that's it.

[00:33:45] That's the choice.

[00:33:45] I think that's what you do with Oswald, because he doesn't get to win.

[00:33:50] Even though Sal's dead, he doesn't get to stand over and go, I took your business from you.

[00:33:54] I own everything.

[00:33:55] You're the one that's lost here.

[00:33:57] But he still shoots him.

[00:33:59] And I like that.

[00:33:59] Yes.

[00:34:00] I like that kind of choice made here.

[00:34:03] Yeah.

[00:34:03] But, I mean, he does take his ring that was held by the Falcons.

[00:34:07] He does.

[00:34:07] And, you know, effectively throws him out of the trolley car that he's fought him in before that.

[00:34:16] And where Sal has had the heart attack, throws him out in front of his men, you know, to parade Sal in front of his guys and to say, you know, rally the troops.

[00:34:26] Yeah.

[00:34:27] And that, you know, this is the star.

[00:34:31] We still have work to do.

[00:34:33] And, you know, are you with me effectively?

[00:34:36] Exactly.

[00:34:36] But here's the head of the lion or one of the lions.

[00:34:40] And, you know, here's the trophy.

[00:34:42] We can do this.

[00:34:44] This is what we can do.

[00:34:45] It's like a rallying cry.

[00:34:47] So I really thought this was excellent.

[00:34:50] You know?

[00:34:51] Really good.

[00:34:51] And again, it's one of the little touches as well.

[00:34:54] Old families in the city where the Falcone's and the Moroni's, Sal Moroni dying of a heart attack and the brand new leader of the Falcone's changes the name, becomes a gigantic family.

[00:35:05] So now the entire old mafia style is gone.

[00:35:08] It's done.

[00:35:09] And there's a bit more of that to come in this episode as well.

[00:35:12] Anything else about Moroni versus Oz?

[00:35:14] But I don't think there's anything else left.

[00:35:16] No, I mean, it's just interesting that Sal kind of, you know, I think he says to Oz when he comes down into his base of operations, it's dirty.

[00:35:27] Trust you to sort of stick your head up a sewer and, you know, to hide from us.

[00:35:34] And then he also does notice the plans were from that sort of point of operation.

[00:35:44] He could have access to the whole of Gotham.

[00:35:48] Exactly.

[00:35:50] Like any sewer rat.

[00:35:52] You know, Sal is totally dismissive, but also has just learned something really important.

[00:35:58] And again, OK, he's dead, but even if he hadn't have died, if maybe he'd made it back to the Falcone family, I wonder to what extent he would have given it any notice because he was taking everything out of there.

[00:36:13] It was like, pack it up, ship it off.

[00:36:15] Exactly.

[00:36:16] Back to our base of operations.

[00:36:19] Back to the old ways.

[00:36:20] Yeah, exactly.

[00:36:21] Yeah, if I go to the business, it goes back to the way it used to be.

[00:36:23] Exactly.

[00:36:24] I would say.

[00:36:24] I would say.

[00:36:25] Let's get on to our case note number three.

[00:36:28] I think she deserves her own point in this episode.

[00:36:31] Unflappable Francis.

[00:36:32] I loved this scene between Deirdre O'Connell as Francis Cobb and Christy Milioti as Sofia Giganti.

[00:36:38] Both of them think they've got the upper hands on each other and both of them just have a great verbal battle.

[00:36:45] I do think Francis Cobb comes out on top pretty early on with some of the things she's saying.

[00:36:51] Sofia Giganti kind of thinking, oh, well, it's Oswald Cobb's mother.

[00:36:56] This will be easy, right?

[00:36:58] This will be easy.

[00:36:59] She'll be terrified of the idea that she might be killed by me, this leader of the Mafia family.

[00:37:06] He's just a driver that's got above a station.

[00:37:10] What could his mother possibly have?

[00:37:12] But her consternation in the face of Sofia is just fantastic.

[00:37:18] I love it.

[00:37:20] Oh, it is.

[00:37:20] It's absolutely seen of this episode.

[00:37:26] From start to finish, the whole ballsy approach and the confidence of Francis in the face of Sofia and where she is.

[00:37:37] Even just the start of it where you have Sofia making her breakfast and Francis just says, did you bring me here to feed me toast or are you going to kill me?

[00:37:50] In a sense, it's like she doesn't, or at least the bravado of her makes it seem as though she doesn't care about dying.

[00:38:02] Exactly.

[00:38:02] But everything is sort of a ballsy comeback to Sofia.

[00:38:09] It's the fact that she's changed her name and it's being sort of condescending about the Falcone family.

[00:38:21] It's like, do you guys not like color effectively?

[00:38:26] Yeah, exactly.

[00:38:26] I love her.

[00:38:28] There's no joy in this house kind of thing.

[00:38:30] Absolutely.

[00:38:30] I love her response to Sofia taking the name Gigante instead of Falcone where she goes, what are you going to do next?

[00:38:36] Tie your hair pink and get an ass tattoo?

[00:38:38] That will really show daddy, won't it?

[00:38:40] Yeah, exactly.

[00:38:41] I love it.

[00:38:41] Just so venomous from her as well.

[00:38:45] But I think just the initial kickoff of it actually is Sofia sees the twitch that's in Francis' hand and mistakes that for nervousness on Francis' part.

[00:38:56] So she walks into the room and goes, what are you nervous when she sees Francis?

[00:39:01] And that instantly sets Francis off.

[00:39:04] That sets her going, as you say, are you here to bring me toast and kill me or kill me?

[00:39:08] And so...

[00:39:08] But it's just that taunt, you know?

[00:39:10] Like even just, you know, she calls Sofia an easy mark, you know?

[00:39:16] Yeah.

[00:39:16] And there's the whole thing that Sofia's like, you know, you have a lot of confidence in your son.

[00:39:23] And she's like, well, I do because he's studied you.

[00:39:25] He's studied your family and the drug game.

[00:39:29] And no matter whether you change your name or not, he knows about the drug game.

[00:39:35] And effectively, you don't.

[00:39:37] And, you know, I'll be tap dancing on your grave when Oz puts a bullet in your head.

[00:39:44] I mean, so she has faith in her son.

[00:39:48] Yes, she does.

[00:39:48] And that gives her the bravado to almost feel as though this is part of the plan.

[00:39:54] That she is indestructible.

[00:39:58] She is safe.

[00:39:59] And I love the fact that it turns on a dime with the mention of Jack and Benny.

[00:40:04] Yes, Sofia saying to her, I wondered who it was that developed Oz the way he is.

[00:40:11] Aren't we lucky that your other sons didn't live because you could have turned them into monsters too?

[00:40:15] And that flips Frances.

[00:40:18] She first gets angry about the mention of her sons.

[00:40:21] But then that flips her into that introspective, that inside version of Frances that we've seen in the past where she's still reliving those moments back.

[00:40:32] Basically the time when we saw her.

[00:40:34] That fateful night, effectively.

[00:40:36] Yeah.

[00:40:36] Yeah.

[00:40:36] No, absolutely.

[00:40:37] I thought, I just thought the switch here was, I just thought it was incredible from Deirdre O'Connell.

[00:40:45] I loved it.

[00:40:46] I loved how it suddenly, you know, all this bravado and suddenly this flip to vulnerability being triggered.

[00:40:58] And in a sense, it takes Sofia off guard as well.

[00:41:01] You know, it's like, Frances, where do you think you are right now?

[00:41:04] Like she doesn't quite know.

[00:41:06] Yeah.

[00:41:06] Like it's suddenly a completely new person in front of her talking about something that there's no relationship to her current situation.

[00:41:17] And then, I mean, almost to the point, Sofia is trying to be sort of understanding and tender to this moment.

[00:41:38] Yes.

[00:41:39] I think.

[00:41:40] Maybe, maybe not.

[00:41:41] But it feels like she, it's almost like she's just coming back to the bravado again.

[00:41:48] Yeah.

[00:41:49] I took it that Frances is actually, because she's having this experience of when her sons are missing, she's talking to Sofia as if she's one of the police officers that's supposed to be searching for her kids.

[00:41:59] Oh, maybe.

[00:41:59] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:42:00] And then kind of says to her, you know, they're so young, you should be out there looking for them, not here with me.

[00:42:04] And then slap Sofia.

[00:42:06] But you're right.

[00:42:06] It's just that odd mix of what's happened in the room between the two of them and how strong Frances was in front of her.

[00:42:12] Then that vulnerability of Frances when she's faced with the death of her two sons and then the slap as well.

[00:42:18] So Sofia does seem to be trying to placate her, trying to calm her down.

[00:42:23] There's a softness that comes into Sofia in that moment when she realizes that the Frances that was just talking to her isn't there.

[00:42:30] She's locked somewhere else in her mind.

[00:42:32] Yeah, and ultimately is the reason then that she asks Julian Rush that she needs some help with Frances, that he, you know, his techniques, you know, we see his Cylon contraption being used on it.

[00:42:51] But he's in there to talk about a problem potentially with Gia Viti, who's in a child's home.

[00:42:59] So this whole moment between Sofia and Frances does give Sofia an avenue or plan of attack really here.

[00:43:12] Yeah.

[00:43:13] And that's to use Julian Rush to get more information about Oz and actually who and what he is.

[00:43:22] Exactly.

[00:43:22] Yeah, but such a brilliant scene.

[00:43:24] Oh, it's fantastic.

[00:43:25] Two brilliant performances together.

[00:43:27] Fantastic.

[00:43:27] Love this moment.

[00:43:28] And let's go on to our case number four, Sofia's change of heart, because, you know, layered in on top of this conversation with Frances, this moment with Frances, where she's telling her, you don't even know the game.

[00:43:40] Oz is playing it way better than you because he observed your entire family.

[00:43:43] Sofia also has that mention from Dr. Rush, as you said, about what's happening with her cousin's daughter, Gia, who's been put away in a children's home in Brookside, children's home, that she's possibly going to be talking to the cops.

[00:44:02] I just think it's quite interesting here.

[00:44:04] We talked about Dr. Julian Rush a couple of times now, Theo Rossi's character in the show and how willing he is to work alongside Sofia.

[00:44:11] There's a moment here where he's literally saying, do you want me to go and kill the little girl for you?

[00:44:15] Basically, yeah.

[00:44:15] So you don't have to do it.

[00:44:16] Like, he is all in here.

[00:44:18] Yeah.

[00:44:19] Is there going to be a problem with Gia?

[00:44:21] You want me to take care of her or take care of her?

[00:44:23] You know, kind of thing.

[00:44:24] She's a loose end in the gassing of your family.

[00:44:28] Yeah.

[00:44:28] I mean, totally.

[00:44:29] I don't want you to have to worry about it.

[00:44:31] You know?

[00:44:31] Yeah.

[00:44:32] Totally got that as well.

[00:44:35] And, you know, I think Sofia is certainly not of a mind to take out Gia.

[00:44:43] And in visiting, she realizes that she's being institutionalized like she was in Arkham.

[00:44:50] And I think it's really, really interesting because it's even she says to Gia, I didn't, it wasn't me, didn't do anything.

[00:45:00] You know, I loved your mom and dad.

[00:45:04] And then sees that she's actually self-harming.

[00:45:08] Yes.

[00:45:08] Like, maybe some of the scars on herself are about.

[00:45:15] And then starts to say, this may sound strange, but actually none of the family has your best interests at heart.

[00:45:23] You're going to grow up and eventually get out of here.

[00:45:27] And you will be a woman who will decide to go on a path that your family and relatives, the Falcons, my family, could never have given you.

[00:45:40] Yeah.

[00:45:41] This is really, really interesting.

[00:45:44] It is, isn't it?

[00:45:44] But at the same time, I think she's feeling massively guilty for subjecting Gia to what she was subjected to.

[00:45:53] Yeah.

[00:45:53] And it does play out when she's speaking to Oz later on.

[00:45:59] Yeah.

[00:46:00] Which I really like that this kind of traumatic event.

[00:46:03] And you see her sort of shaking as she leaves the room that Gia is in.

[00:46:10] Yeah.

[00:46:10] And just before she gets the call from Oz to effectively say, Sal is dead.

[00:46:17] Yep.

[00:46:17] You know, this isn't playing out the way you thought it was going to.

[00:46:21] Exactly.

[00:46:22] Yeah.

[00:46:22] Let's make a deal.

[00:46:23] Yeah.

[00:46:24] It is really interesting because Gia did have some evidence that could have taken Sophia down.

[00:46:29] Gia saw the gas mask that was in her bag when she took her outside and they spent the night in the greenhouse while she gassed the rest of the family.

[00:46:38] The gas mask was with her so she could go back inside.

[00:46:41] And Gia saw this.

[00:46:43] But just it's really interesting that, again, it's kind of the unsaid thing that Sophia is saying is none of the family has your best interests and heart, including me.

[00:46:53] Because there's no moment where she says, here's a million bucks that's an escrow account for you.

[00:46:58] I'm going to send you off to Italy.

[00:46:59] Well, that's true.

[00:47:00] With the distant relatives or anything like that.

[00:47:02] It is.

[00:47:03] This is your life now, kid.

[00:47:04] You're in the children's home.

[00:47:06] And when you get out of here, you'll create your own life away from this family.

[00:47:09] And no matter what it is, it'll be better than this.

[00:47:11] Bye now.

[00:47:11] Yeah, like I had to.

[00:47:14] Kind of.

[00:47:15] It's really messed up, actually.

[00:47:18] Because it's not like what she had because she specifically says it to Dr. Rush.

[00:47:22] I came out of an institution that they put me into for 10 years and walked straight back into another institution, the institution of the Falcone family.

[00:47:30] So she's telling Gia, that's it.

[00:47:32] You're no longer part of the Falcons, the Gigantes or the Viti family.

[00:47:37] You are part of the orphaned families of Gotham.

[00:47:41] Now, you find your own life.

[00:47:43] And no matter what it is, it's better than whatever we all find for ourselves and what they want for us.

[00:47:47] Because none of us will ever help you out, basically.

[00:47:49] I just thought it was a really surprising moment, especially because you can see Sophia's heart is breaking for this kid that is being put through something like she was put through.

[00:47:59] Exactly.

[00:48:00] But she is putting her through exactly what she went through.

[00:48:06] And she's trying to say, but you need to do it this way and forget about it when you do leave.

[00:48:12] But the point is, it's the messed up of putting the kid through that institutionalization.

[00:48:19] And not a state hospital, not an asylum, but an orphanage, effectively.

[00:48:28] An institutionalized child's home.

[00:48:33] And it's like, that's what's messed up.

[00:48:36] That's where, you know, what is it that she wants from life?

[00:48:42] It's what she talks to Julian Rush about when she has the panic attack, when she talks about wanting to having accepted the deal that Ars has put to her in that moment coming out.

[00:48:56] Yeah.

[00:48:57] And it's like, well, what do I want to do?

[00:49:00] So, I mean, this is so messed up.

[00:49:03] Yeah.

[00:49:04] That she's putting Gia through, at this moment in time, exactly what she went through in a different way, which is separation and institutionalization, probably where people aren't going to believe what she says.

[00:49:19] Absolutely.

[00:49:20] And we've already seen one character in Matt Reeves' Batman universe being created from the orphanages in Gotham.

[00:49:26] And that was the Riddler in the Batman movie.

[00:49:28] He was created from this orphanage system that's in Gotham.

[00:49:32] So, it's not a great system.

[00:49:34] If you're going to leave her in there and not provide her with any other way out, things aren't going to turn out very well for her either.

[00:49:41] Not at all.

[00:49:42] So, maybe they're creating a villain for the third season of Batman, or the third movie, or for the second season of whatever show is coming.

[00:49:49] Maybe it'll be Gia's story.

[00:49:52] I guess so.

[00:49:53] This could be.

[00:49:53] Could be a new villain in Gotham.

[00:49:55] Yeah.

[00:49:56] We move on to our final case note, John.

[00:49:58] Case note number five, a new approach.

[00:50:02] Which, yeah.

[00:50:02] So, with the death of Salmoroni, with the ending of the Falcone family, we mentioned Sofia becoming Sofia Giganti, setting up her family.

[00:50:11] But it wasn't really clear to me until this episode that Sofia, even though she was taking on a new name and taking on a new family, she was still kind of the same old family ideals, I suppose.

[00:50:23] What Oz had been talking about with the other heads of the Gotham crime families of the smaller gangs was, we can't go back to the old ways.

[00:50:31] We all need to join together and be something new.

[00:50:33] And now Sofia is realizing she also needs to be something new as well.

[00:50:37] Yeah, and I think in part, it's from that phone call from Oz where he says, despite everything that's going on, you still want the same thing, which is to be the kingpin.

[00:50:51] You want the keys to the kingdom.

[00:50:53] And you can have it all, the bliss, the operation, the connects, if you bring, effectively, my mom to me, safe and with not a hair out of place on her head.

[00:51:05] And this is where she realizes, yeah, that, like you said, from one institution of Arkham into another institution, which was a cartel mindset, a family cartel mindset.

[00:51:22] Yes, I changed my name, but I'm effectively running it still just as my father actually wanted me to do before he sent me to Arkham.

[00:51:31] Exactly.

[00:51:32] So really, really good.

[00:51:34] And, you know, you have Julian again.

[00:51:37] He's just like this really sort of horrendously dark angel on her shoulder.

[00:51:42] He says, well, you know, she says, I thought I was doing something different, but I'm not.

[00:51:49] And he's like, what do you want?

[00:51:50] And she goes, I want to be free.

[00:51:52] Yeah.

[00:51:52] And I want Oz to feel pain, real pain, the kind I felt.

[00:51:58] I need him to suffer.

[00:52:00] Yeah.

[00:52:01] And so like this is almost going down a sour route.

[00:52:06] This is like now I just want to see you suffer.

[00:52:11] Not necessarily vengeance for what's gone before.

[00:52:15] Maybe.

[00:52:16] I mean, how Alberto possibly figures into her thinking.

[00:52:20] I don't know.

[00:52:21] But she wants to just see unrequited revenge.

[00:52:28] Absolutely.

[00:52:29] Yeah.

[00:52:29] That's the big difference, isn't it?

[00:52:31] She's asked what she wants and she wants to be free and wants him to suffer.

[00:52:35] She never says anything about she wants the business.

[00:52:37] She wants the bliss back.

[00:52:39] She wants to be the kingpin anymore.

[00:52:40] None of that is figuring into her plan.

[00:52:44] And all she wants is Oz to suffer and her to be free.

[00:52:48] So that's quite a big thing.

[00:52:50] And it plays out in the conversation that she has later on when the car is driven to Oz's high days.

[00:52:55] And we believe that she's having a conversation on the phone from the car to Oz.

[00:52:59] And she's saying to him, well, you think you know me.

[00:53:01] You think you know who I am.

[00:53:04] You think I'm the same as you.

[00:53:05] And you think I would want the things that you want.

[00:53:07] But really, she doesn't.

[00:53:09] She wants Oz just to suffer.

[00:53:11] Well, and it's yeah, exactly.

[00:53:12] Exactly.

[00:53:13] It's that.

[00:53:16] But it's also that no one thought I'd ever get out of Arkham as well.

[00:53:20] And that, you know, the game was rigged in favor of the men.

[00:53:25] Yeah.

[00:53:26] That I was just going to be too delicate to survive Arkham.

[00:53:33] No one thought I would get out.

[00:53:35] But no one thought I would learn new games.

[00:53:39] You know, they thought I would just not survive.

[00:53:41] Or if I came out, it wouldn't matter because the whole thing is rigged.

[00:53:45] Everything is rigged.

[00:53:47] Including you.

[00:53:48] You know, I've just been I've been following the same pattern.

[00:53:53] And this new approach is where she sends the car bomb in instead of herself.

[00:54:00] And I like that this is like this is the return call.

[00:54:03] That's why I thought it was really good about this and how it played out was you have Penguin phoning her to say, I know all about you.

[00:54:11] And there's this introspection of Sophia.

[00:54:15] Sophia, in some cases, you know, egged on by Julian Rush because he does know her.

[00:54:21] But also based on that confrontation with Francis where she's like saying, we've changed your name.

[00:54:27] But you're still in the house and this house isn't very different.

[00:54:31] This is pretty gray.

[00:54:32] You know, you think you're the rebel, but you've not done anything effectively is what she's saying.

[00:54:37] And you have the return phone call where she replies to Oz and takes out his whole base of operations with a car bomb.

[00:54:49] And once again, in this show, they do go for the big explosions when these things happen.

[00:54:56] We saw Crown Point get wiped out by the flood that was in the end of the Batman.

[00:55:02] Here we see the explosion happen, but I love that the camera's above ground and it's effectively a block that is taken out from underneath the city.

[00:55:11] I love that you see the roads fall into the ground there, killing pretty much everybody inside except for Oz, who dives into that overflow tunnel where his brothers died by the looks of it.

[00:55:23] Anyway, that looks exactly the same.

[00:55:25] It looks exactly the same.

[00:55:26] Absolutely.

[00:55:26] Same door.

[00:55:28] And yeah, what brought death?

[00:55:32] What, 40 years ago now brings survival for Oz as he survives the big bomb.

[00:55:40] And I know I was kind of joking about it when we were watching it last night, but if the skeletons of his two brothers were going to be in that spot, that probably would have been a bit too far.

[00:55:49] That would have been a bit on the nose.

[00:55:51] It would have, yeah.

[00:55:53] Yeah, and in another world, that would have been some kind of macabre, hilarious twist for Halloween.

[00:55:59] Yeah.

[00:55:59] I think he's got these two skeletons sort of sat up against the wall and Oz is like sort of moving the bottom jaw up and down.

[00:56:08] All right, Benny.

[00:56:09] All right, Oz.

[00:56:10] I think Tim Burton would have done it.

[00:56:12] Yeah, no, exactly.

[00:56:13] If this was Tim Burton's Penguin TV show.

[00:56:15] To a Danny Elf and score.

[00:56:16] Absolutely.

[00:56:17] And Danny DeVito definitely would have done it.

[00:56:19] We've seen him on Always Sunny.

[00:56:21] He'd always done something like that.

[00:56:22] Exactly.

[00:56:23] But it absolutely looks like Oz is the only one that survives in this bomb.

[00:56:26] You see the countdown clock going.

[00:56:28] It gets to like 12 seconds.

[00:56:29] So he goes, I think there's enough time on the time to get away.

[00:56:32] Oz shouts for nobody.

[00:56:33] He runs straight into that overflow tunnel to get himself away.

[00:56:37] And you hear the other guys going, what's going on, Oz?

[00:56:39] What's happening, Oz?

[00:56:40] Yeah, because there's a guy literally at the back of the Jeep as it goes off.

[00:56:46] And it's like, well, it's totally incinerated.

[00:56:49] Uh-huh.

[00:56:49] Absolutely.

[00:56:50] Absolutely.

[00:56:50] So it seems like Oz is the only one of his crew that survives.

[00:56:55] Certainly the actual structure is gone and the bliss plants are all gone.

[00:57:01] That's all wiped out.

[00:57:02] So it's just left with Oz as he crawls out from underneath the rubble and meets up again

[00:57:08] with Detective William McKenzie.

[00:57:10] William McKenzie is the guy that kidnapped one of Moroni's men from the hospital earlier

[00:57:15] on in the season in exchange for a bit of bliss from Sophia.

[00:57:19] So he's still on the payroll, I guess, for Sophia.

[00:57:24] Yeah, the dodgy GCPD detective.

[00:57:27] Mm-hmm.

[00:57:27] Yeah.

[00:57:29] And he just cracks Oz over the head and drags him off to be brought to Sophia for the conversation

[00:57:36] to close out the season, I guess.

[00:57:38] Yeah, I mean, the other thing I quite like about Oz stumbling out from underground is that

[00:57:44] for a split second, he thinks he sees Victor there because we have a moment of conversation

[00:57:49] with some of the other guys.

[00:57:51] It's like, you know, have you heard anything from Victor after he's asked him to go and

[00:57:55] get an army and the other guy's just saying, no, no, I've not heard from him.

[00:58:01] It just keeps going to answer phone.

[00:58:03] So that's kind of interesting as well.

[00:58:05] You know, the person isn't Victor.

[00:58:08] Yeah.

[00:58:08] And I'm half expecting that Victor will be sort of riding in heroically to save Oz by the

[00:58:18] skin of his teeth.

[00:58:19] But equally, it depends what's gone down with the other leaders of the gang.

[00:58:24] And maybe this is part of the problem that I suspect that they look after number one, which

[00:58:30] is themselves.

[00:58:31] Maybe.

[00:58:31] If there's any hint that they're not going to survive it.

[00:58:33] You know, they'll also behave tactically and strategically and not necessarily, well,

[00:58:39] just, you know, opened a can of beer with Oz the sort of week or two before.

[00:58:46] Now I'm going to put my whole gang on the line to save his skin.

[00:58:51] But I wonder if it's something bigger than that.

[00:58:54] I wonder if Sophia has done something to the other heads of the gang.

[00:58:58] She will know full well that Oz has made a partnership with them.

[00:59:01] And she is the brand new leader of the Gigante family who aren't doing things the old way.

[00:59:08] So did she send a bomb into Oz and also take out the other heads?

[00:59:12] Maybe.

[00:59:12] So he has no other backup because he wouldn't have thought possibly that she would have

[00:59:16] had that plan, you know?

[00:59:17] But she would need that knowledge.

[00:59:19] So unless there is a rat and it could be Zhao, the triad.

[00:59:24] Could be Zhao, yeah.

[00:59:25] They could have gotten Victor as well, you know?

[00:59:28] Yeah, that's true.

[00:59:29] I don't think Victor's a rat.

[00:59:30] Sorry, just to clarify.

[00:59:31] I don't mean that Victor's a rat.

[00:59:33] I think they may have captured Victor and maybe.

[00:59:35] Okay, yeah.

[00:59:35] And he's also there at the.

[00:59:40] At Monroe's.

[00:59:40] At Monroe's.

[00:59:42] And that the rest of the heads may be gone.

[00:59:44] So there may be nobody coming for Oz.

[00:59:46] I just wonder because we're setting up the finale of the show.

[00:59:48] We're on the final episode of the season next week.

[00:59:51] And I do think this entire series now at this stage,

[00:59:54] especially because of the Heart Attack of Sal,

[00:59:55] I think this season is all about the end of all of the old gang

[00:59:59] structure and the old gangster structure in the city

[01:00:01] and setting up the new gangster gang structure,

[01:00:03] which is led by supervillains like Oz Cobblehot.

[01:00:07] So does that mean that every other gang is gone by the end of this season?

[01:00:10] Yeah, possibly, possibly.

[01:00:12] You close it all out and you're in the story for the end of the season.

[01:00:16] It's going to be really interesting to find out.

[01:00:17] No, it could be.

[01:00:19] But I'm hoping it isn't.

[01:00:23] I'm hoping that the smaller gangs are there and survive because I think,

[01:00:28] I don't think the intention is for Oz is to share power.

[01:00:33] So he will look to consolidate.

[01:00:35] But I think that could be a really interesting season too.

[01:00:37] Yes, he's now got maybe the power and the run of Gotham,

[01:00:44] but there are still competing interests here.

[01:00:47] And it's not enough to have just taken out the Falcons and the Moronis

[01:00:55] and potentially the Gigantes.

[01:00:59] It's now also about consolidating his position amongst the gangs.

[01:01:06] I don't know.

[01:01:07] No, I know.

[01:01:08] I know I'm just working on the premise that we're probably not getting a season two.

[01:01:11] So I would say the future of Oz is up against other people like the Joker,

[01:01:17] like Mr. Freeze.

[01:01:20] It depends how quickly they want to get to that point, I guess.

[01:01:24] And that I'm not really sure about in the Matt Reeves universe.

[01:01:28] I know.

[01:01:29] I mean, yes, they've shown the Joker at the end of Batman.

[01:01:34] Yeah, Barry Keoghan.

[01:01:36] Our very own Barry Keoghan.

[01:01:37] Yeah, it'd be interesting.

[01:01:38] That'd be cool.

[01:01:40] But I'm hoping Victor is not captured and comes in in that kind of heroic vein.

[01:01:48] Like Gandalf and Lord of the Rings.

[01:01:50] Yeah, maybe.

[01:01:51] I think so.

[01:01:53] I'm not entirely sure it's going to work out well for Francis.

[01:01:58] I think Sophia probably will get her pound of flesh, whoever that may be from.

[01:02:05] Yeah.

[01:02:05] So we'll see.

[01:02:07] But it's just really good to know, you know, we don't see Victor at any other moment other than at the start.

[01:02:15] Yeah, exactly.

[01:02:16] He could have gone to hospital.

[01:02:17] He's probably got concussion if he's had a wrench over his head.

[01:02:20] Yeah, and been slapped by Harnsey.

[01:02:23] Do you know what I mean?

[01:02:23] Maybe, maybe.

[01:02:24] Or he died from the head injuries sort of just 100 yards further down.

[01:02:30] That would be it.

[01:02:30] Or he was caught by the Moronis, as you say, as he was leaving.

[01:02:34] Yeah.

[01:02:34] So you just don't know.

[01:02:36] Yeah, we will see next episode.

[01:02:39] That's kind of it for the episode and the main case notes.

[01:02:43] Any other things we should mention, John?

[01:02:45] Any other points we should mention?

[01:02:47] I think just the main note is the reference to the episode title of Top Hat and seeing both the movie Top Hat with Fred Astaire,

[01:02:58] but also the Top Hat being a signature feature of the Penguin with his long coat and his cigar.

[01:03:07] So, yeah, that's a nice little touch, I think.

[01:03:12] Yeah, just the fact that that's the Top Hat here that we're talking about is the movie,

[01:03:15] not him getting his Top Hat and Tails together to go off and create his full costume from the comic books.

[01:03:22] I like that touch.

[01:03:23] That was cool.

[01:03:23] Yeah, cool.

[01:03:24] So overall, John, how would you race this episode of the Penguin?

[01:03:27] Episode 7, the penultimate episode, Top Hat?

[01:03:30] I think this is setting up the final episode really, really well.

[01:03:35] I would give this five heavy reins out of five.

[01:03:39] Again, just another great episode for me.

[01:03:43] I'm just really liking the sensibility of this show.

[01:03:47] I think each week there are just standout performances between two characters.

[01:03:59] And the development of this relationship between Oz and Francis really good, Sophia and Francis there.

[01:04:08] I just thought it was exceptional acting.

[01:04:12] Absolutely.

[01:04:13] I absolutely loved it.

[01:04:14] I could watch that all day.

[01:04:18] Seeing Sal trying to take out Oswald but failing to the interruption of his heartbeat.

[01:04:28] Everything.

[01:04:29] Even just down to having old dodgy William Kenzie there again.

[01:04:34] I just love how this is all interconnected.

[01:04:37] The flashback, again, enough ambiguity there to kind of go,

[01:04:42] was this Oz's first kill but unintentional?

[01:04:46] That's why you have him saying to Victor it gets easier after that because that was also his own flesh and blood.

[01:04:53] You know, it's just so interesting.

[01:04:57] And again, I think the main thing I felt was the absence of Victor.

[01:05:02] And I'm glad he didn't die at the end of last week.

[01:05:04] But the relationship between Oz and Victor and indeed Francis and Victor I just think is really, really good.

[01:05:15] So I'm really hoping that we get a good dose of Victor and Oz sort of, I guess, rising in some way.

[01:05:27] Interesting.

[01:05:27] I don't know.

[01:05:29] It's also not entirely clear how it's going to go.

[01:05:32] I mean, it could all just play out in the Monroe Metropole there.

[01:05:36] It could.

[01:05:37] In a sense, almost like a stage play.

[01:05:39] It could be.

[01:05:40] But they used to have a phrase about HBO's Game of Thrones.

[01:05:43] If you think the show is going to end on a nice moment, you haven't been watching.

[01:05:49] And I feel like the Penguin might be keeping that tradition alive for HBO shows.

[01:05:55] Absolutely.

[01:05:55] And right now, especially after seeing the flashback to what Oz would do to his own brothers as a kid just because of a prank they played.

[01:06:04] He's not a good guy.

[01:06:05] No, he's not.

[01:06:06] I'm not expecting him to be in a real happy position at the end of the season.

[01:06:10] So let's see how it plays out next week.

[01:06:13] But excellent stuff.

[01:06:14] Really enjoyed this episode overall.

[01:06:16] Yeah, absolutely.

[01:06:17] Right.

[01:06:17] Let's go for a drink, John.

[01:06:18] I need a nice cooling, calming drink to end the Iceberg Lounge.

[01:06:22] Yes, fellow Gothamites, fellow quizzers.

[01:06:26] Welcome to the Iceberg Lounge for the pub quiz.

[01:06:30] And question seven.

[01:06:32] What movie did Oz say his brothers Jack and Benny were going to see?

[01:06:39] So if they had been actually going to the cinema, I guess, what movie would they have seen as that question reversed?

[01:06:47] John, do you want to get the question one more time?

[01:06:48] Sure.

[01:06:49] What movie did Oz say his brothers Jack and Benny were going to see?

[01:06:55] Excellent.

[01:06:56] And the sequel just came out?

[01:06:58] Stop giving away the clue.

[01:06:59] We need some hints in there.

[01:07:01] No, we didn't.

[01:07:02] It's simply not.

[01:07:03] Okay, cool.

[01:07:04] That is the seventh question in the eighth question of our Iceberg Lounge quiz.

[01:07:10] Yes.

[01:07:10] Gather together all the correct answers.

[01:07:12] Email us at the end of the season to feedback at tvpodcastindustries.com with the correct answers.

[01:07:16] And you could be able to chance of getting your hands on some penguin goodies.

[01:07:19] Yes.

[01:07:20] Good stuff.

[01:07:21] And good luck, fellow quizzers and fellow Gothamites.

[01:07:25] Let's get into our criminal comms feedback section for this episode.

[01:07:31] Yes.

[01:07:32] First up, we got an email in.

[01:07:34] Just a quick email from a former resident of New York who wanted to give us a little bit of history on the Giganti name.

[01:07:42] They say, dear fellow Gothamites, as a former resident and fan of NYC and its history, I want to share that the Giganti family were part of the famous Genovese crime family during the Italian mafia era.

[01:07:52] In later years, Giganti would walk around his Sullivan Street Greenwich village neighborhood in slippers, pajamas and a bathrobe in a play to make himself seem mentally ill or simple minded.

[01:08:02] I happened to live a few blocks away from his HQ and briefly frequented a laundry that had almost zero business.

[01:08:08] When I asked if they could iron my shirts and not just hang them, the look I got from the owner made me immediately realize one, I was getting my shirts from a different operation.

[01:08:17] And two, if I wanted folded shirts and enjoyed walking and talking, I should find myself a different laundry.

[01:08:24] Thought you would enjoy the story that is slightly related to Sophia Giganti and may provide a clue to why the writers of the comics chose that as the name.

[01:08:32] Keep up the good work, Dick Grayson.

[01:08:34] Great stuff.

[01:08:35] Thanks so much, Dick.

[01:08:36] Absolutely.

[01:08:37] I feel he may have chosen a cover name in case the members of the Giganti family remember them from back in those days in Sullivan Street in Greenwich.

[01:08:47] That'd be cool, though.

[01:08:48] I would absolutely love to go to a laundry that's not got a queue.

[01:08:55] But I just think it's a really good story.

[01:08:58] It is.

[01:08:58] It's a great story.

[01:08:59] Yeah.

[01:09:00] You'd think they would at least try and sort of iron a shirt just to keep the front going.

[01:09:06] I mean, I know that's not their business.

[01:09:08] But I mean, I think it's a great, great story.

[01:09:12] So thank you so much for sharing.

[01:09:14] And I must say, I wouldn't have known about the different sort of Italian mafia crime families of New York.

[01:09:22] Yeah.

[01:09:23] Almost a bit like the current version of the Penguin comic book that I'm reading, a collected series.

[01:09:29] I like the notion of, you know, Senor Giganti walking around in his pajamas and bathrobe just to kind of play on the fact of, well, maybe he's not quite right.

[01:09:41] Or he's getting frail and old, which is kind of part of the premise to some degree of the Penguin graphic novel that I'm reading at the moment.

[01:09:53] Yeah, absolutely.

[01:09:54] Absolutely.

[01:09:55] Great stuff.

[01:09:56] Thanks so much for that email.

[01:09:57] Please, if there's any other great stories about Mafia Life in New York or Mafia Times in New York, we'd love to hear them.

[01:10:03] Yeah, absolutely.

[01:10:04] Email them into us.

[01:10:05] Good stuff.

[01:10:05] We also got an email through on this episode of the Penguin from Coffee and Vodka, who says,

[01:10:12] Greetings, fellow decimated lair defenders.

[01:10:16] The only way to more viscerally feel the drowning death of Jack and Benny would be to join them.

[01:10:21] So well and so disturbingly done.

[01:10:25] Been doing my best not to echo the camps which have Vic as the Penguin's Jason Todd.

[01:10:30] But the crowbar in episode six had me wondering.

[01:10:34] Instead, it's expectations expelled with Vic in the wind and Mama Cobb as bait.

[01:10:40] I'm guessing he's gathering that army to save the day next episode, rather than doing the smart thing and joining his friend in California.

[01:10:50] The way they've been playing this so far, however, anything's possible.

[01:10:54] The destruction of the show's McGuffin, Bliss, for example.

[01:10:58] No sacred cows here.

[01:11:00] Is there something in Clancy Brown's contract that says he's not allowed to survive beyond a first season?

[01:11:06] And good for Oswald, turning a death trap into a survival space.

[01:11:11] Going into the last episode, I think everyone's finally done underestimating Sophia.

[01:11:17] Not that there's much of everyone left.

[01:11:19] Looking forward to the unpredictable ending.

[01:11:22] Four and a half bobbing brothers, disturbing dances, and gullible gaslit gangster girls out of five.

[01:11:30] Peace and take care.

[01:11:32] Coffee and vodka.

[01:11:33] Love the bobbing brothers coffee and vodka.

[01:11:36] Certainly given it's Halloween.

[01:11:38] It's like playing Bob Apple.

[01:11:40] Yeah.

[01:11:40] Much nicer to think of Bob Apple than what actually happened to those poor kids though.

[01:11:44] Yeah.

[01:11:45] Exactly.

[01:11:46] Absolutely.

[01:11:48] But you're totally right.

[01:11:50] It was so well done in the episode.

[01:11:51] Really disturbing.

[01:11:53] And yeah.

[01:11:53] I loved it.

[01:11:54] I loved how it played with the tempo of Top Hat.

[01:12:00] Yeah.

[01:12:01] Really good.

[01:12:03] As we were watching it the first time, both of us were just kind of looking at the screen going,

[01:12:07] is that it?

[01:12:09] Has he killed him?

[01:12:10] Is that what he's done?

[01:12:11] It was shocking.

[01:12:13] Really, really good.

[01:12:13] And yeah, I think one of our other listeners mentioned it last week about the connection between Vic and maybe Jason Todd,

[01:12:20] one of the Robins in the Batman comic books who was effectively beaten to death with a crowbar.

[01:12:28] So that was what people were suspecting was going to happen.

[01:12:32] Sophia was coming in.

[01:12:32] She was going to kill Vic.

[01:12:34] And then Vic would come back as Jason Todd or come back as a Robin.

[01:12:38] But yeah, he got a bang over the head and was able to wake up and escape, thankfully.

[01:12:44] So not Jason Todd.

[01:12:46] No.

[01:12:47] I hadn't really thought of that, to be honest.

[01:12:50] Yeah.

[01:12:50] It felt like a big leap from just a crowbar to Vic being the new Robin.

[01:12:58] I mean, I guess the leap that Vic didn't have to go to hospital after being hit over the head with a crowbar,

[01:13:08] you know, that's partly something that would get me a bit sort of in a tis was.

[01:13:13] It's still a comic book show.

[01:13:14] No, I agree.

[01:13:15] I agree.

[01:13:15] No, I mean, I don't mind at all.

[01:13:17] I'm being a bit facetious.

[01:13:19] I just think it's great that Victor has survived.

[01:13:23] And yeah, guessing, too, that he's gathering that army.

[01:13:28] But I think, you know, maybe to Derek's point, anything could happen.

[01:13:32] You're right.

[01:13:32] There are very few sacred cows going on in this episode.

[01:13:38] Whether it's Clancy Brown, whether it's all the bliss in the world.

[01:13:42] And likely for me that whether it's Francis Cobb at the end of next episode.

[01:13:51] So, I mean, all of Oz's new sort of minions, you know, absolutely.

[01:13:59] All gone.

[01:14:00] I'd even say, you know, the way these universes are working now in DC,

[01:14:04] I don't even think that Oz is safe coming out of the last episode of this season.

[01:14:08] You know, there's no guarantee he has to be back in the next Batman movie.

[01:14:12] And this will be maybe the second of three or maybe the only other Batman movie in the Matt Reevesverse.

[01:14:17] So, we may never see Oz after the end of this season.

[01:14:20] So, why not be the end of his story here before he becomes the powerful penguin in the Batman universe?

[01:14:27] There's no reason.

[01:14:28] There's no shackles on them at all.

[01:14:30] It's not like the Marvel Cinematic Universe, which had everything connected.

[01:14:33] All the TV shows, movies, comics all connected in their own way.

[01:14:37] That's not what DC have ever done.

[01:14:39] But it's not what they're doing with James Gunn.

[01:14:42] Exactly.

[01:14:43] Yeah.

[01:14:43] Exactly.

[01:14:44] Whereas the Matt Reeves universe, the Batman universe is separate to that new James Gunn universe.

[01:14:49] Yeah.

[01:14:50] Yeah.

[01:14:51] But thank you so much, Coffee and Vodka, for your thoughts on this episode.

[01:14:54] Yeah.

[01:14:55] Thanks, Coffee and Vodka.

[01:14:56] We also had a message on Facebook from Becky Anderson who says,

[01:14:59] I really like this episode.

[01:15:00] Diving into Oz's backstory and learning what started the shift for him to become the man he is today.

[01:15:04] The young man who played him did a wonderful job getting the mannerisms and speech down for adult Oz.

[01:15:09] Impressive.

[01:15:10] His relationship with his mom makes much more sense now, seeing the lengths Oz went through for it to be just the two of them.

[01:15:17] Yes.

[01:15:17] Some very big lengths that Oz went through to keep it just the two of them.

[01:15:20] Yeah, definitely.

[01:15:21] And I totally agree with you, Becky.

[01:15:24] The young actor was really, really good.

[01:15:29] I liked how young Oz was portrayed here.

[01:15:35] It felt really good.

[01:15:38] I mean, almost to the point where you almost feel as though Oz is that older child, actually.

[01:15:45] You know, still looking for the approval of his mother.

[01:15:48] Oh, yeah.

[01:15:49] Always has been.

[01:15:50] Absolutely.

[01:15:50] Because, actually, he's not fulfilled the promise he made to her at the end of this episode.

[01:15:56] So, yeah.

[01:15:56] Great stuff.

[01:15:57] Thanks, Becky.

[01:15:58] Absolutely.

[01:15:59] Yeah.

[01:15:59] Thanks, Becky.

[01:15:59] And I think I even said it to him when we were watching this episode, John.

[01:16:02] And there's times when I'm watching it going, is that Colin Farrell?

[01:16:05] Was I forgotten?

[01:16:06] I forget that it's Colin Farrell.

[01:16:08] I know.

[01:16:08] Our awesome Irish actor underneath that makeup.

[01:16:11] But he's doing such a brilliant job playing this role.

[01:16:14] Oh, fantastic job.

[01:16:15] Yeah.

[01:16:15] Really, really good.

[01:16:16] Thanks so much to everybody for your feedback for this episode of The Penguin.

[01:16:19] We've got one more episode to go.

[01:16:20] We'd love to hear your thoughts.

[01:16:21] Email us into feedback at tvpodcastindustries.com with any thoughts you have on all the episodes

[01:16:26] of The Penguin so far.

[01:16:27] We will be recording our finale episode next week, of course, after the episode comes out.

[01:16:31] Then we'll do a wrap up where we provide the answers to the Iceberg Lounge quiz and crown

[01:16:37] the winner of our pub quiz.

[01:16:39] Indeed.

[01:16:40] Thank you so much, fellow Gothamites, for joining us.

[01:16:44] We'll be back with episode eight, the final Great or Little Thing, which should be a blast.

[01:16:53] If the rest of the series is anything to go by, be sure to subscribe and to stay subscribed

[01:17:00] to the podcast on any podcast catcher of your choice.

[01:17:04] Mm-hmm.

[01:17:04] And, of course, please share the podcast because sharing the podcast is, of course, sharing

[01:17:10] the love.

[01:17:11] But not in an Oswald, young Oswald, cold, not that way.

[01:17:14] Yeah, not that way.

[01:17:14] No, not that way.

[01:17:15] Thanks so much for joining us.

[01:17:16] Talk to you again next time.

[01:17:17] Yeah.

[01:17:18] Until next time, fellow Gothamites, keep watching, keep listening, and, of course, keep waddling.

[01:17:23] Bye.

[01:17:24] Wah wah.