VisionQuest Episodes 1 and 2 Review

[00:00:00] This is the Defenders Podcast on TV Podcast Industries. You're back with VisionQuest for Episode 1, No Strings, and Episode 2, Theseus. My original code dates back to an AI called Jarvis. But my corporal form was born of Ultron's plan for global genocide. Correcto. What am I now?

[00:00:27] Honestly, I'm a STEM type of lady, so I thought she just flipped a switch on your head and brought you back to life. But what I don't get is why you can't leave the hex. What I do know is I've been watching WandaVision for the past week, and the love you two have is real. You belong together.

[00:01:20] Welcome back from the Defenders to TV Podcast Industries. This time we are talking about VisionQuest. The first two episodes came out today, and we're going to talk about Episode 1, No Strings, and Episode 2, Theseus. I am one of your hosts, Derek. Hello there, fellow Defenders. Yes, welcome back. I'm one of your other hosts, John. And rounding out the marvellous trio, I am Chris. Welcome back, everybody. Delighted to be here for a pretty special one here.

[00:01:47] This is the new series from Disney+, closing out the now-named trilogy of shows which started with WandaVision, continued with Agatha all along, and now is closing out with VisionQuest. And also quite special for us because the first Marvel movie that we ever covered on our Marvel podcast was Avengers Age of Ultron, which was the birth of this character. Well, and of Ultron as well as Vision. So kind of cool to be wrapping it all up in this season.

[00:02:15] And the death of another character in here as well. Jarvis. Yes, that's true. Yes. So which synthetic AI do you sort of connect with here? Who do you think is your synthetic equivalent? Dummy? You? Edith? Friday? I thought you were just talking to me directly. The names of the characters there. Dummy? You? I quite liked Edith. Edith was fantastic, yes. Great to see her in live action. I would say I'm a girl Friday.

[00:02:45] Yes, your Friday. Yeah, that's on Friday. I'm a Friday. I'd love to say I'm something suave like an Edith or... I actually know... Edith is not suave. Oh, no. Hey, she's race car driving. Uh-huh. Parachuting. Yeah. No, no, no. I am very much either a Friday or I am a dummy. Oh, Chris. Hey, Dummy gets stuff done. He does. He does. See, it's all about... You gotta get stuff done.

[00:03:14] He's a maintenance robot though, Chris. Yeah. He's like the Crichton of the MCU. And that's... Yeah, exactly. And he doesn't speak at all. Which would be really useless as a podcaster. So you have to have either... Any one of the characters that speak would be definitely... It is Chris. Chris is a maintenance system because he's OCD sort of cleaning up. Cleaning up. He's our own cleaning AI. I love it. Openly cleaning domesticated. I love it. I love it. OCD.

[00:03:42] I think I'm probably more of a Jarvis than the rest of the characters. I think the original and the one that tells everybody else, well, I've been here longer, so I know how everything works and then doesn't last forever. Yes, Derek. Before I get into spoilers. Yes, Derek. You are just a rather very intelligent system. Yes. While in my research for this episode, I did pull out the names of all of these characters and what they actually were, the titles that they were given.

[00:04:12] Because most of the AIs that Tony Stark invented were acronyms in their name. So Jarvis is just a rather very intelligent system. Friday was Female Replacement Intelligent Digital Assistant Youth. It's the one that he plugged into his suit at the end of Age of Ultron and just had it tagged as Friday. Edith was the one that was in the sunglasses that he left behind after he died for Peter Parker. And that was Even Dead I'm the Hero was the acronym

[00:04:42] because he wanted to prove to Peter even after dying he was more important, which I liked. Yes, I liked Edith because I think we've seen less of Edith, so it was kind of good just seeing how sort of kooky she was. Yeah. Which is probably me, but I'm probably also Ultron. Yeah. I think in the movie wasn't Edith played by Jennifer Connelly? Yes. Was that the one? I'm trying to think. Oh no, that was in Homecoming.

[00:05:10] Sorry, Edith was the second AI that he had. Far From Home. Far From Home. That's right. That's right. So I can't remember who she was played by. Anyway, those are the major characters. We are going to get into detail and spoiler-filled detail on the episodes. But if you haven't subscribed to the podcast, or if you're joining us for the first time, pop on over to our website at tvpodcastindustries.com. Subscribe to the podcast over there and join us for all of our coverage of the over 1,000 podcasts that we've done on TV shows for the last 12 years. You can join us over there.

[00:05:40] You can also send your feedback in for the show to feedback at tvpodcastindustries.com. We are lucky enough to be watching these episodes before they've been released, so we don't have any feedback on this episode, but we'd love to hear your thoughts on the rest of the season to that email address throughout the other six episodes of the show. You can also pop on over to our Facebook group at facebook.com slash group slash tvpodcastindustries, where there's a spoiler post up for each of the episodes, or you can join us on our Discord. The details are in our show notes here. And later on in the episode,

[00:06:07] we will be kicking off our Vision Quest pub quiz with two questions. At the end of the season, you could get your hands in some Vision Quest goodies by emailing us to that email address with all of the correct answers to the pub quiz. Yes, it is going to be the old Selkie pub quiz. Oh, it is. That's right. Yes, we're taking that as the pub quiz name, given that we see the old Selkie here, the pub or the inn that Vision is working in, with Fiona Guthrie. Mm-hmm. Yes.

[00:06:36] The landlady who gets... Mm-mm. Mm-mm. Yes, lots of scenes take place in the old Selkie, and it took us ages to work out what the hell that said, because we didn't know what the word even meant. It's seal in Scots Gaelic. Yes. Yeah. Yes, but wasn't it also the Selkie was a folklorian-tailed kind of seahorse beast thing, which just turned out to be seals. Yeah, that's exactly it. Mm-hmm.

[00:07:05] So, yeah, I think that's quite a good little name. We had the Rushville Redneck there recently for lanterns. So, great to get the old Selkie pub quiz going. Yes, yes. Well, I'm sure that'll be up on our website. Each of the questions will be available there over in TV Podcast Industries after these episodes are released as well. I think we should get into our chat all about these two episodes, guys. Absolutely. Let's do it.

[00:07:32] Derek, what are some of the episode details for these two episodes that we're covering? Episode one, no strings, and episode two, Theseus. Well, the show was created for TV by Terry Matalas. He's the showrunner for the show, in other words. We know him from his showrunning for three seasons of Star Trek Picard. He is a writer and executive producer of many, many shows out there. This is based on Vision, created by Tony Stark, Bruce Banner,

[00:08:00] and brought alive by Thor in Age of Ultron, I guess. Yes. But really, of course, it's created by Roy Thomas and artist John Buscemi. A character first appeared back in The Avengers number 57 so a pretty early character for The Avengers. Executive producers for the show are Kevin Feige, Louis Desposito, Brad Winderbaum, Mary Lavanos, Terry Matalas, Jack Schaefer, and Christopher J. Byrne. This episode, and both of the episodes, actually were written by Terry Matalas, the first two, and both episodes were directed by Christopher J. Byrne.

[00:08:30] He was the second unit director on Star Trek Discovery and The Last of Us, which we covered here on TV Podcast Industries, and recently directed three episodes of Foundation on Apple TV as well. Oh, I really need to watch it. Yeah. That's like a blind spot that I'm like, I know I need to watch it. I know I will love, it's a space opera epic, and I'm like, all those words are amazing. It's just, I'm like, oh, there's so many episodes of it. I'm so far behind. Like, we've seen the first one, and it's hardcore sci-fi,

[00:09:00] but I do like it. You loved it, didn't you? Yeah. Derek won't let me watch it now. You have a little taster, and we will eventually go back for the drug that is Apple TV when I have a bit of money to it. So subscribe to Apple TV again. I think I can get a seven-day subscription, but you can't get into enough, for free, but we can't get into enough episodes in seven days. We'll watch it for seven days straight. There you go.

[00:09:28] Chris, we tried that. We broke my ankle at the beginning of the year, and I didn't get to watch enough of this stuff, so unfortunately. Less of breaking my leg. Yes, yes. Less of that. No threats. More holidays. You think you're in the West. He's great. But John, do you want to tell us what they gave us with your synopsis for the first two episodes? Episode one, No Strings, and episode two, Thetius. Sure. Years after the events in Westview, the original but rebooted vision has returned to Edinburgh in Scotland. He works in a local pub attempting to learn

[00:09:58] how to interact with humans the way his former self did. In his downtime, he lives in a virtual space where he is aided by a new family, all of Stark Industries' former AI helpers, Jarvis, Friday, you, Dummy, and Edith. But in the attic of their virtual home, he keeps his megalomaniacal father, Ultron. Ultron learns that someone has put a hit on vision and, bored with his mediocre existent, Ultron leaks the location

[00:10:28] to the bounty hunter, Paladin, via carrier pigeon, aka email. But, unable to kill vision on his first attempt, Paladin and his handler access the sword files relating to the Westview incident. They learn about a boy called Thomas Shepard who claims to be the son of Wanda Maximoff and Vision. Paladin kidnaps the impossible boy and threatens to kill him if Vision doesn't turn himself in. In episode 2, a year ago,

[00:10:58] Thomas Shepard was arrested after an incident to police in London. He has memories that can't exist of a time when he was the son of a witch and a robot. But unable or unwilling to help him, they sent him to St. Mayburn's Sanatorium. On the transfer bus to the heavily guarded facility, Tommy meets kleptomaniac Lisa. The two quickly hit it off and, working together, they escape the bus and their fate. In the present day,

[00:11:27] Paladin lays a trap for Vision by placing the kidnapped Tommy in the same prison hospital and inviting him to save his son. Spurred on by Ultron and overconfidence in his vibranium body, Vision walks into the trap taking out Paladin's mercenaries and saving Tommy. Despite Paladin being prepared with adamantium bullets, Vision just about escapes with his life. But the damage caused by the bullets almost leads to his death until Jarvis offers up his processing powers

[00:11:57] or his life to save the other AIs. With questions still needing to be answered, Tommy returns with a car to escape with Vision and his passenger, Ultron. What I love about these two episodes is the amount of times you can say, with a little push from Ultron with a little encouragement from Ultron in the background. He's quite an active figure even when he's not on screen, isn't he? Yeah, absolutely. And I have to say, like, oh my goodness, James Spade's voice is like

[00:12:27] hypnotic. Even if he's just saying regular stuff, it just really kind of draws you in. Like, it's mental. It is, isn't it? You know, even more so than when you watched Age of Ultron. Watching him on screen here playing the character of Ultron, you go, well now I know why they cast that in him to do that voice because it's so powerful. He should just do every advert now for the rest of time and I'd buy it. I'd just keep buying it. Well, maybe we'll find out his persuasive skills throughout this series

[00:12:55] have led to quite a few things so I guess he's got those persuasive skills in his voice. James Spader, like, that man was from Boston Legal all the way through. Him versus William Shatner was probably the most fun that people have ever had on set in any time. Now we get him versus Paul Bettany trying to do that sophisticated, highbrow, intellectual discussion and then you're getting to

[00:13:25] wait, huh? Wait, I need to repeat that for me one more time. Just say it again. Just say it again. Yeah, just say it again. But yeah, no, absolutely fantastic and I can't wait to see how much of a, how much mischief he can get into. I think that is as the kind of episodes take along. Absolutely, and he's definitely got into a fair bit of mischief in these two episodes which we will talk about as we get into our code lines for our episode. We'll talk about

[00:13:54] our top five code lines for these first two episodes of Vision Quest. Let's kick it off for the first code line. Vision back in Edinburgh, our opening kind of sequence of the episode. We have a bit of voiceover from Vision explaining who he is, where he comes from before he takes the stage which I do like. It's a good little potted history of Vision to be honest. Yeah. Yeah, I liked it. That's how you do a synopsis. John, remember that. Yes. Because yeah, it was a really good

[00:14:24] little potted history of Vision. You know, if I kind of go back to TV burp, it's like potted history in a nutshell. It is, very much. Explaining where he came from, loved the whole lead through of how we got each of the AI characters and now form part of his new family, which is really interesting. We've got you and Dummy who were the former assistance robots of Tony Stark.

[00:14:53] You can just picture the assistance robot with the dunce cap on his head and that's this dummy character that's there in the background. Both played by actors from one of my favorite comedy shows, The Goes Wrong Show. Yeah. And interestingly, there are also two of the three creators of that show as well. So we'll see more of them as the season goes on, which is always fun. But they are very quiet and in the background. Yes, very much so. For comedy actors. I get the feeling that at some point

[00:15:22] it's somewhere throughout the season one of them and or both will come out with some really poignant intellectual kind of like, oh my God, they're so, like they're hyper intelligent. Yeah. And if either of them will, it has to be the one that Tony Stark christened Dummy. He has to be the more intelligent one, doesn't he? No, absolutely. I mean, yeah, definitely. Definitely. I'm kind of looking forward to hearing them speak. But yes, certainly much more in the background

[00:15:52] at the moment. I do like a little inside joke. If you have seen The Goes Wrong Show, both of those characters are people, are characters that everybody wants to keep silent. One because he always gets his lines wrong and the other one because he tries to take over all of the plays. So I do like that in here for two episodes they haven't had any lines at all, which would make the rest of the cast of those shows very happy. Good stuff. Well, that's two of the two of the characters. We'll talk about the rest of the family, I'm sure, as we go on. But I do love the idea here that after the events

[00:16:21] of WandaVision, we haven't seen Vision, this version of them, the White Vision, the original body, but rebooted now and doesn't have the memories or the experience of the Vision that was in WandaVision or beforehand. But he's come back to Edinburgh because that's where himself and Wanda were based while they were on leave from the Avengers after Civil War. So he's come back to try and see if he can piece together some of the life

[00:16:50] that the previous Vision had and maybe learn how to be more human and connect with humans, which I love this idea. Yeah. Yeah. He, as we learn, he has all the memories, but he just doesn't understand them. Yeah. And that's a common theme throughout these two episodes kind of, is that like, yeah, no, I get it. I understand where I've come from, but I have no feeling for any of these people, places, animals or things. Exactly. It's just,

[00:17:20] I have no connection. I have no history. Yeah. And it's more prevalent in the second episode, but yeah, no, definitely going to Edinburgh, you're like, especially just the W plus V and the heart. Like he looks at it and just, I was expecting him kind of almost like phase through and scratch it out or something or just again, it's like, yeah, no, it's there. Yeah, sure. But he has no wee lassie this time. Aye, but we do learn

[00:17:50] that he has been developing this. This is exactly what he's been trying to do is learn these emotions, learn the connections that Vision had. So yeah, so he, while he doesn't have the connection to that bit of graffiti or a bit of a bit of the love heart that's on the table doesn't have a connection with it, he's trying to learn why that Vision would have felt the need to do that or the want to do that. So I kind of like that. I like that he's, has the conversation with the bar owner that's there. Mrs. Guthrie. Mrs. Guthrie, yeah, the relationships

[00:18:19] that he has with her. I love that she's kind of going, you are odd, but I kind of like that because there's no one like you in the world. it's kind of, you know. Absolutely. There's some really, there are some really, really good, like, things in this because I do like when he's like going, smiles are baffling too much and the customer thinks she's trying to get it on, basically, with his wife. And, you know, these conversations between him and Mrs. Guthrie, it's just really nice

[00:18:48] because it just lends itself into, he's trying to figure something out. But then, some things then suddenly kind of take you out and I think, you know, intentionally so on this kind of like warm, fuzzy, trip down memory lane where, you know, a little bit later, you know, Fiona Guthrie is shot and killed and there's a moment back in his mind's construct and where he's like going,

[00:19:18] yes, her death was tragic but I didn't know her. Do you know, it's, there's this, because he's trying to figure it out he's still keeping this really sort of objective distance from everything and that's the thing, he goes, I can recognise my past. He has another line which I can understand what I've done but I don't understand the feelings behind it or the emotions. He's downloaded the files, you know. Exactly. Yeah, and you know, there's no coincidence here that all of these characters

[00:19:48] are called AI and that there is definitely a commentary on the fact that AI might have all of the information at its fingertips but has none of the emotion behind it and has no connection to it as humans would, right? That's the, that is the very basic underlying thoughts behind the show itself, you know. Can Vision learn to be more human without the presence able to bring it through. Or more, yeah, more like Vision because, you know,

[00:20:18] that is another interesting thing around this, this notion of the science but also the magic, the mystery, the monsters, the wizards, the witches that's kind of brought up here as well. Like even in that potted history where, you know, he describes I was synthetic but I chose to protect humanity and through that it made me love, i.e. Wanda. So yeah, just that kind of notion that Vision

[00:20:46] was transcending something and here white Vision didn't necessarily get that other aspect of what Vision had, I guess. Exactly. He's only five years old. Yeah, exactly. It'll take a time to learn emotions. And he's been hiding in the pantry of a pup because I do kind of like the idea that he just locks himself in the pantry next to the potatoes and then kind of goes into his little

[00:21:15] mind construct which is really good and I think, you know, given this is a bit of, you know, the third installment of, you know, WandaVision, Agatha all along and now, you know, this all dealing with separate realities and really I like that trilogy that's come about here from these shows. It really does feel like there's a connection between the three of them because all three of them, at least in the first episode, have had this

[00:21:45] different outside of the regular world, this different world outside of it. Obviously, Westview in WandaVision where she was on TV in black and white and the first episode, Agatha All Along where she was in a cop drama until she was cleared of that and then went to the Witch's Road and then this one here where he's inside his mind construct. Before we move on out of the first point, let's talk about the mind construct a little bit and some of the other characters that are in there. So, we have Jarvis who's been brought back, the first ever version of

[00:22:15] the AI that we saw back in Iron Man 1, 2 and 3 up until Age of Ultron effectively, that was the AI voice in the suit of Iron Man and now he's playing the security protocol AI for Vision and played once again by James Darcy, another one of our favourite MCU actors who's been around since Agent Carter and was in Avengers Endgame recently, which we just saw in the cinema, playing the character of Jarvis again.

[00:22:45] Jarvis. He's forever the Jarvis. And here he is playing Jarvis AI. Absolutely. Great to have him back. And then, of course, you have Friday who is giving all the guidance and connection to humanity and she's monitoring Vision's progress and giving him feedback every time he comes back in. Absolutely. Your socialisation was up 3.8%. I just really like that. That's how I feel sometimes. I know. You've gone to the office of the day and you're like, did I do enough talking

[00:23:15] to people? No, it's okay. My socialisation is down. Yeah. You were wearing your earphones from the moment you arrived to the moment you left work. Your socialisation is down 10%. Yes. Honestly, that would work for me. If you gamified my actual stats like that, I'd be like, yeah, okay, I need to work on my socialisation tomorrow. Keep it up in the green. We now have the new version of Google Mental Fit maybe. And then as well as Friday, we also

[00:23:44] have Edith in there, the fun loving AI who's out there to experience all that life has Yes, exactly. I just think they're all really good. I love this notion of an extended AI synthetic family in his head. I mean, even Ultron as well sort of locked up upstairs in his mind space as well.

[00:24:14] But I love the fact that they all know he's up there. It's like it is the monster upstairs and he's like, one day he's going to smother us. There's this kind of impending threat from upstairs. The one thing I just noticed maybe it was just me, but you know that in Inception when they go through the dream layers and it's in that type of elevator going down and this is going I was kind of like is this kind of almost like it's the

[00:24:43] elevator of different synthetic whatever I don't know, like some kind of dream thing from a processor point of view. It's just because there's a few movie references thrown into these first couple of episodes. Like Age of Ultron? Oh no, sorry. No, no, like there's a Mission Impossible one, there's a Silence of the Lambs one, so it's kind of and I just saw like the old-fashioned lift with

[00:25:12] the metal sort of rack type doors and it was like just reminded me a little bit of Inception going into a different sort of level of and maybe in this case it's just the threat. Yeah. But yeah, I thought it was really good. Very good, yes. Yeah, really cool. No, I'm like you guys, I absolutely loved it. One piece that we haven't touched on very quickly is that Jarvis is considered to be Vision's older brother as part of

[00:25:42] this construct and it's very cute and it's called through multiple times up until the end as being the firstborn, the eldest, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And it's a fun play and it kind of does, we've talked about this synthetic kind of AI family that is being built and there's a fantastic comic book about the Vision and the Vision's family where it's the Vision, his dog, his wife,

[00:26:12] and his two kids and all constructs, all synthetic like himself and the door to the house looks very similar and has the visions, except this one just says Vision on its door. And it's just, it's so, I want to say playful, like they've done such a, Terry Matless has done such a clever thing about

[00:26:42] tying a lot of this back to WandaVision where we had this olden 60s kind of different era, maybe I'm wrong on the era, but that just a slightly not present day kind of feeling to the decor, to the style, and you can see that in the architecture, you can see that in that way the house is put together, and just then you see it with Jarvis, with Dummy and their suits and their

[00:27:12] overalls with Friday, they all kind of just invoke and are dressed similar to way Vision is where he has like an overcoat and he's sitting reading a paper and he's just like the smoking jacket almost. Although I do love the papers from a dot matrix printer, it's not a newspaper, it looks like it's just been printed off for him. I think Ultron calls it this psilocybin Ikea, infused

[00:27:41] Ikea, when he's talking about the deco, which is quite good. I like some of the fire is like a gif, exactly. Really some nice touches here. Absolutely, and even the plants outside and the trees outside are all in the shape of pipe work. From the old Windows pipes, the screensaver if you remember back in those days. Everything's just that

[00:28:11] little bit off because it's been created in the mind of an android rather than being actually created. I love the conversation that's had about artwork in there where Ultron is talking to Vision saying, do you see all the art? Do you see all the beauty in the art? And he's saying, I see the brushstrokes and that's kind of it. That's the difference between the two of them. Ultron's a bit more advanced in his AI, as we know, from his movie. But Vision just can't see beyond the basics, can't see beyond what's directly presented in front of him. What he's

[00:28:41] trying to learn from his interactions around him is to see beyond the basics. So yeah, that's, I guess, going to be the story of the series. With that, let's get on to our code line number two then. I don't have a buzzer or anything for this. I should have the typing cat, shouldn't I? Or Dan Morgan, because that's all she does in these episodes, just type away on the keyboard. Great fun. Our code line

[00:29:11] number two is Ultron returns to wreck everything. We talked about Ultron a little bit, but I wanted to really focus on him in these episodes, because as I mentioned after the synopsis there, the amount of times Ultron is in the background just kind of pushing people to do things, including Vision, including Jarvis. And really interestingly, we find out that he's been sitting upstairs, bored, he's locked away from everything, and he finds a way to get an email out into the world to alert people who

[00:29:40] have put out a hit on Vision and haven't been able to find him for potentially five years. He sends an email out into the world to give them Vision's location just to change things up a bit. Yes. I love this, I have to say. I mean, I think ultimately, with James Spade, he could have said anything, I really liked how his dialogue, like in some cases, really kind of poignant or meaningful, like he

[00:30:10] says in the first episode, you know, humans are relentlessly aspirational as he's talking with Vision about, you know, because he's shown him the sword classified files and Vision's ass dummy and you, well, who's done that? And they just kind of point upstairs and he goes up really, really angry. He says they're relentlessly aspirational, but wallow in their misery, you know, what, and like you say, when he asks him what do you see in the

[00:30:39] artwork, it's like, as he said, the mathematics of the brush strokes or the luminosity of the light and all this kind of thing, not their grief, anger, or hurt. And it's like, it's really good. But then on the flip side of that, there's that moment where he's shouting off the balcony because the food has come cold 40 minutes late. And when he looks at it a bit later, he goes, sesame chicken calzone. He's like, he's just absolutely

[00:31:09] disgusted at what he's kind of read as this new kind of, for this calzone, whilst he's in this kind of prison. And, you know, even just with the art aspect, he says, well, I think Vision asks him, well, what would you do if you were among them? He goes, I'd visit the Louvre or the Met or the Prado or I'd hijack their missile systems and destroy them. And it was just like, it's just this

[00:31:40] interaction is so lovely for me. It's like I kind of, like I'm trying to take notes but I'm just writing down what James Spade is saying because this was really rich and great. And so yeah, it made me laugh and it's also really meaningful to Vision ultimately trying to search for the feelings of his past life and, you know, and this understand

[00:32:09] Vision as this version of himself that is, you know, more human. so it's just really good. Exactly. Yeah. And the calzone, the pizza takeaway is the best example of this whole thing, which is he understands the ingredients and all the parts, but doesn't understand how they're put together. And it is because you're like, he's like, you know, that's not the takeaway that you would throw together. But he also understands that a part, like he codes

[00:32:39] in for the delivery drivers to be late because he thinks that's just part of the, that's what happens. So, and even Ultron calls him out on it. I love this, the carrier pigeon being the email as a way to get through, just a nice little kind of image. and then as we start to see, they're, they're pushing, they're pushing you to believe that Ultron is going to be

[00:33:08] the big bad of this show. Um, and we'll, we'll get to more so kind of the why because he is pushing Vision to be thing and he's trying to get himself out and he slips out. He's basically out in, quote unquote, out in the real world within Vision's own mind. He's out of the elevator and the attic by the end of the two, two episodes. Yeah. But I, I honestly believe that what we'll find is that

[00:33:38] the, the understanding of humanity, the bad of humanity is what Ultron will kind of pass down to Vision and that will be the kind of driving force outside of, um, what makes him the, the, the Vision again versus White Vision because each of the different AIs are going to teach him a small bit of how to be more than what he is.

[00:34:08] And that's, and that's part of the thing, isn't it? It's Vision has chosen to have these AIs represent different aspects so they can all teach him something. And he even knows probably in the back of his own mind, he knows he must have Ultron there because he also needs to learn that other side of the world, right? You can't just, you can't just hide that away. You also have to learn from the bad side as well. Yeah, and it does lead to the bad. Absolutely. The bad side is forcing its way in constantly into the experiences of Vision is probably taking over a little

[00:34:38] bit as we go. Yeah. And then this is what kind of kicks off everything. Yeah. This email and it gets us to the death of the landlady. Them going on the run or Vision on the run and all of them inside his head. It's the catalyst for the series. Yeah. And it's even the catalyst for the introduction of all the different other characters. I found

[00:35:09] it fun back and forth. The one thing I will call out with Ultron is they're doing a bit of anyone who watches South Park will know is the member berries which is he Ultron is constantly quoting stuff he said in Age of Ultron or just paraphrasing us slightly talking about the strings and the puppeteer talking basically doing callbacks.

[00:35:39] Yeah, absolutely. And it's fun but I was just like oh yeah you're playing the greatest hits and I love this. Yeah, it's also 15 years pretty much since Ultron came out. Maybe 12 years since Age of Ultron came out. And it is the most I would say unfairly maligned of the Marvel movies. 100%. Even re-watching it it's kind of like I could skip about half an hour but it would take about half an hour of that movie out and go the rest of it is actually really really good but generally it's the one that people re-watch

[00:36:09] least so you do have to have Ultron's idea, the concept of him not wanting to be bound by anything around him because he's more intelligent than everything around him. that concept that he used with the I've got no strings and the first episode called no strings and the fact that he's trying to cut those strings for Vision effectively to make him into the person he wants to be. He's trying to stir him into action through this kind of mischief

[00:36:37] but ultimately as well I think he does get away with a lot because a number of times Vision is angry with him for meddling even just with his daily matinee performance of trying to understand his life and he slips in a different set of files that clearly upsets Vision here

[00:37:06] but it also has consequences in that you see Vision's boss Miss Guthrie getting killed getting murdered because he's informed he's got the pigeon out and given away the location of where he works so there's real life consequences seemingly happening here but it's Ultron who doesn't care about

[00:37:36] humans exactly and then as you say there's a moment with the EMP thing where he then takes his opportunity to escape and get out through the lift as you just hear it open again just really nicely done but I do think he gets away with a bit even when he's visiting Vision outside of his

[00:38:06] mind construct after he has gotten out in quotes I guess because again I'm like okay this is all really it's kind of just really interesting there's the mind construct then there's the reality and I'm like is there going to be something wrong with that reality potentially but you also then because you also have Tommy dealing with his own reality they're going through that similar thing

[00:38:36] but I like that Ultron is the catalyst here because I just think it's really really good and I really like how it's represented showing the AIs outside of Vision's body they're not really outside they're able to monitor outside because they are systems they're able to monitor and see what's going on so instead of having them sitting in the room watching camera feeds of what's going on outside you have Jarvis standing outside the pub seeing the attack happen but he's probably monitoring from

[00:39:05] cameras or from other positions effectively he's not really outside the body of Vision so when later on you have Ultron outside of Vision's body you can connect that he's not really outside nobody else could see him it's just a representation to have so we can have those conversations but I love that it's set up that way earlier on so you have Edith arrive in the pub after the attack telling him how to escape but she's not really there she's just doing it in his mind the best even better example is later

[00:39:35] when they go to Mabin's and he's at the front and you get each of them giving away a different piece of why it's a trap and it's just a very interesting do you remember the show leverage it was no okay anyway it's a guy you would expect from for any of our DC fans it's Oracle Batgirl the girl in the chair the guy in the chair it's the I have a view and I'm going to

[00:40:04] give you my superhero all the details you need to get through it I thought you'd totally go for Ned Leeds and Spider-Man Chris I know my audience I'm speaking to DC heads on our Marvel podcast love it I love the fact that it's done with Edith picking up a view master with the cartridge which I remember as a kid going through

[00:40:34] that and looking through it as the binoculars you have vision as well deadpanning it going why would I be looking at fashion the fashion elements of this and she's like because that's important look he's not wearing runners it's combat boots and then there's the gun the end the nozzle of the gun sticking out and she's like and that's just sloppy that's a bit of a giveaway isn't it really

[00:41:15] after the murder of vision's boss we get introduced to paladin I just love that he effectively said that wave of mercenaries in knowing most of them were going to die because he wanted to test out the vision because he has another follow-up team ready to come in afterwards but as he walks in after vision escapes he just executes the guy that killed Fiona vision's boss because he doesn't like having collateral

[00:41:45] damage he didn't send them in there to kill anybody else he sent them in there to either take out vision or to work out what vision's power was effectively and that was it he didn't care if any of them died but the fact they killed someone they shouldn't have killed means he executes the sniper that killed her yeah actually there's two headshots in the first two episodes because the paladin takes out the kind of cranking prison officer so

[00:42:15] yeah he likes a good old headshot cranky prison officer is an interesting description for him yes well he is he's just miserable he is miserable yes and likes to use his cattle prod he does anything else about the return of Voltron here in this first couple of episodes I just like how he works in this story absolutely I think it's really great use you know as I say all being in his mind in that sense what about his look

[00:42:45] I mean I like the moment where Vision says only human avatars and I like the moment where you still have Ultron in the mirror and he's sort of trying on the different hats so he's got the steps and he ends up with the short stubby top hat and that he uses I just saw you in a hat earlier I think I'm a hat guy now yeah I think I just

[00:43:14] think it's genius using him and I think it's great having you know the voice of Ultron but with the face of James Spader and with his big bushy beard and I mean even like you see it in the trailer where he's like it's a boy you know muzzle top yeah and it's just really really good and you kind of like is that about Tommy but equally it could be him talking about his own creation which is Vision

[00:43:44] he's especially grandpa to Tommy and father to Vision so he's really enjoying making Vision feel really uncomfortable do you want to call me Papa do you want to call me Pop Pop do you want to call me Daddy basically so which I just think is really funny so I think Ultron being here and with that little glint of mischief and sociopathic I guess as much as that in his eye really really really good excellent agreed

[00:44:16] let's get on to another introduction to another character on our code line number three Thomas Shepard or Tommy Maximoff oh I really like this this is following on the lines of Agatha all along which I think is really good what a great way to introduce this character if you all remember Agatha all along we had the introduction of the teen for the first few episodes later on in the series as we all started to suspect that this was young Billy from WandaVision they introduced him as

[00:44:45] William Kaplan not Billy Maximoff it was only towards the end of the series that we realised that Billy Maximoff had taken over the body of William Kaplan and here we have a similar situation we have a kid Thomas Shepard who was dying and drowning or being drowned by a group of bullies and then the essence of Tommy Maximoff was forced into his body I really like this and I know we'll probably see a little bit more of this as the

[00:45:15] series goes on but we've already seen it we've seen it from the other side we saw Billy Maximoff and Agatha Harkness doing a spell to put Tommy into this body and I just remember the scene where you hear Billy screaming as the power is running through him and he's shouting going Agatha am I killing a boy to bring back my brother and here you see he didn't actually kill the boy he thought the boy was dying and that's why he was doing it Agatha was saying it doesn't really matter

[00:45:45] he's probably dead anyway but it turns out what's actually happened is he's forced half of his brother's essence into the body of Thomas Shepard who has all the memories of who he was beforehand and now has these brand new memories of the one division Tommy effectively so he doesn't know what's happening he knows he feels like everything is true all of his history as Thomas Shepard is true and all of his history as Tommy Maximoff is true and but he's being able to distinguish

[00:46:15] what it is as well it's not just the memories though because he has the powers but I love this element of this for this character being kind of you know that 50-50 of Thomas Shepard or Tommy Maximoff but I love how it plays out over the two episodes because you have that it's mainly done in part through the psych evaluation video seeing

[00:46:44] Vision watching it back and you have him describing this demon in deep red and purple looking like he's bruised but with kind eyes not human but he called me his son and you know and he's like it's real but it's not real I remember it but I also remember my life as Thomas Shepard where his mother is dead his dad has walked out on him and just coming

[00:47:14] back to the complication of Ultron being there but also that voice on vision shoulder and because he Ultron is like you just think this is a tactical deception a ploy should draw you out that this Thomas Shepard this Tommy Maximoff is not one or the other but he says don't you think that this might be possible in this witchy world

[00:47:44] just giving that connection back and I really enjoy all this and of course you do get the classic line around grief is just love persevering which you get from WandaVision and all the other AI synthetics are like how does he know that I think Friday is

[00:48:14] really good I think and there is just an interesting thing about that because they're not aware that the WandaVision TV show was broadcast outside of Westview and it is stored within the S.W.R.D. so the actual conversation where Vision said to Wanda what is grief but love persevering was actually broadcast on the WandaVision TV show to S.W.R.D. so they have that in their files just to make a comment so there is

[00:48:44] a possibility that Tommy has actually been just downloaded into we just happened to see Agatha along and we know there was magic involved and that's why the two are there but I think it's an interesting touch and also the kind of external perception if you didn't watch the TV show WandaVision or Agatha along and you're just one of the MCU fans who only watches the movies and don't

[00:49:14] the mind stone was ripped out of his head and that vision ceased to exist and all the rest of the stuff is all to speak about

[00:49:44] Tommy's powers as well so we didn't see a huge amount of them in WandaVision and again that was a construct of him he had speed like his uncle Pietro Wanda's brother we saw him running around using those that speed ability that he had whereas here in this show we see him using something a bit more powerful he's using his speed to vibrate through things he's opening doors using his speed to be able to vibrate the nuts and bolts out of

[00:50:14] the hinges which is a really cool use of this power isn't it it generates the electric field which got him effectively he is able to push that back out onto the guard we

[00:50:46] don't see fast running the only little bit didn't quite add up for me was when Tommy and Lisa do escape the bus and the guard is telling them to stop the bus because the camera doesn't pan round it's like the bus has just carried on driving off because they do run

[00:51:15] but he doesn't run fast and that's the point I guess partly in that scene is that when he was the look on her face and also with the taser she's like and what happened there

[00:51:45] her interest is peaked that there's something different here about this Thomas Shepard but it is quite funny that we didn't see the follow up because they literally fell off the back of a moving bus which had security guards in it and then they ran away and it just went that was a year ago and they probably weren't carrying weapons other than the tasers they weren't carrying guns because

[00:52:15] generally they wouldn't in those circumstances they're going to a sanitarium not to a prison but it does seem like heavy guard but they wouldn't be carrying guns so you wouldn't just even if it was him starting to you know yeah well the

[00:52:44] driver couldn't hear because all the rest of the inmates were singing the Christmas carol so it would have taken a bit of time for the other guard to get to the driver and so that's the reason I was like oh okay yeah it kind of makes sense it just kind of felt like they sauntered off a little bit but I think part of it is yes he either hasn't discovered the power of a fast run yet or he hasn't

[00:53:14] yeah he's very very that hasn't transferred you know we're talking about this ultimate download or witchy transfer of Mac Tommy into Thomas they generally just talk about how fast he is at doing things and achieving things well that's very fast you were able to do you know I liked him doing the lock pick thought that was good yeah yeah well that's the thing so he he calls out in that to vision which

[00:53:44] is he he says I can only do this under in kind of immense kind of stress paraphrasing again but he basically says that these are only short bursts of him having this power right so yeah he hasn't discovered thing I'm finding interesting I know we keep talking about it's like he's half Tommy and half Thomas in actual fact and the one of the reasons actually we like it is he's 100% Thomas yes 100% Tommy

[00:54:14] so he's got he's not kind of cherry picked both of the parts it's the two souls smashed together yeah exactly we saw the beginning of this with Agatha all along when it came to um Billy yeah and William where Billy won out well it's quite specifically in Agatha all along wasn't it that William was dead and as he died

[00:54:43] Billy entered his body and from that point onwards there was no more William Kaplan whereas here it's slightly different he thought at least Billy initially thought that Thomas Shepard was dying and he was putting his brother in a very similar situation that he was in and it turns out actually Agatha was slightly lying to him so luckily it feels like that moment he pulled back and stopped Thomas Shepard from dying and now the two souls are in the same body rather

[00:55:13] than there only being one soul in the body of William Kaplan basically so I love that there's a possibility that that one scene has played out and turned Thomas Shepard's life completely upside down I think that's kind of cool I mean I think the other side of this then is I do like Vision going in to rescue him I like how that all plays out but I just with that escape I really

[00:55:43] I just like the whole thing between him and Vision where Vision saying get away as he thinks he's dying and he's like no you are my god damn and he just says something and I think that's really a great way of expressing it because as you say Chris I think we have Thomas Shepard here we have Tommy Maximoff he has the memories of both he has the feelings of both both are equally true to him

[00:56:13] and he's experienced them both but he's grasping now that he's seen the white vision is like you're the reference here of this other person that I equally know to be real and have happened or to be true in some respect so I really like that interaction at St. Mabins

[00:56:42] and just how that plays out I think you described as well when he gets trapped in the EMP I do like the fact that he just uses vision to ram the door down it

[00:57:12] eggs in his hands and the you put your back oh yes that's right I better ice that but yeah I just like that Tommy used him that way anything else about Tommy I

[00:57:43] I I'm hoping we do see her again maybe it will be in a flashback because I do kind of like their interaction from you know at the end of episode one where we meet Tommy and Lisa doing the pick pocketing and the grifting to sort of you know them being transferred to St. Mayburn's and again you have that other film reference where when he asks well what did you do and she went I

[00:58:12] took off the face of my guard wore it and escaped a high security building and she was like no not really just petty larceny and stuff like that I'm not Hannibal Lecter what is with the system in the UK in the MCU so person comes in and steals a couple of things they go you're a kleptomaniac off you go to a place for life in prison no chance it's a it

[00:58:42] would seem to be a little overkill but he's like please help me I've got somebody else's mind in my body we can't help them anymore let's send them off to may home for special children type

[00:59:12] badness kind of bad place do you remember that film new mutants yeah yeah yeah that type of thing where they were getting experimented on blah blah blah blah maybe I was wondering if they were going to do something like that because it was just a way when people go into mavens they never come back out and you're like or a better example would be for any similar type home for

[00:59:43] wayward children almost and they were just being experimented on I was like oh yeah red river and the boys yes that's it yeah I think the other side of it is just simply because it was but even from the actual institution more like what happens

[01:00:13] to V for in V for Vendetta where he's being experimented on that kind of thing because I really enjoy that vibe in movies and it really threw them out to me a bit really I was going to remember the 5th of November I'm like you're a month off buddy one month and it's being re-released 20th anniversary we're

[01:00:43] old every now and again I'm like that's just for the movie not the comic book I was around and that came out as well absolutely let's move on from Tommy yes you were John if I was you were for code line number 4 code line number 4 is who is Paladin we have to give Paladin his own point Paladin is played by Todd Stashwick who we remember from Star Trek

[01:01:13] Picard once again one of the great character actors out there and here he is playing Paladin Paladin is a really interesting character he's a gun for hire we find out it's a legacy title he's the first of this generation to have it almost like Buffy but an evil Buffy because basically anybody who's put as his target he will take them down doesn't matter whether they're villain or hero if they're in his sights he will find a way to take them down

[01:01:44] as I mentioned earlier on I just find it really interesting he's willing to do absolutely anything to get his target getting all the mercenaries sending them in basically with guns versus an Avenger a very heavily powered Avenger who knew they were all going to die and he just wanted to test the limits we see him saying it doesn't really matter whether he is your kid or not the kid believes he is

[01:02:14] so if you don't come in and save him you'll have sentenced this kid to death do you want that on your conscience basically you know so he's willing to use absolutely anything to get his target yeah I think really intrigued by this character love Todd Stashwick I love how with his sidekick his handler Diane Morgan the great Diane Morgan Philomena Kunk if anyone

[01:02:43] Kunk on the world Kunk on the universe Kunk on movies coming out this month yeah really good comedy actor again here being used in this series as well as the two guys from the goes wrong show so yeah really interesting but I kind of like I just run out of British actors to use in Marvel I guess so Dara O'Brien will be on as a scientist in the next one hey

[01:03:13] I'd actually is a comedy show but she did some great dramatic moments in that as well so we have seen her dramatic performance before it's not just the Philomena character that she does she's also very good as a dramatic actress yeah absolutely but I love the fact that how they tap into Ultron's mind

[01:03:43] here and how that's kind of portrayed up digitally in the digital sky I love all that kind of aspect of it I love the fact that it is a little bit of a trope but you know she's kind of the tech head here and like you said before what you can hear is the keyboard going and it's like oh yeah we're in now got that got that because yes interestingly what we learn through at least Paladin is that he has

[01:04:13] no knowledge of Westview other than the newspapers so they go searching and I love how you know this notion of being hunted and the predator that's brought up by Ultron where I think he says when he was asked about what they should do next what after being surprised sort of that surprise attack at the pub by him on Vision he goes well I would pursue and neutralize the threat

[01:04:43] but Vision has already gone on the run and hidden so you know I like the fact that you have this predatory aspect of this bounty hunter going after Vision and it's you know what's the best place is to find where he's running to by looking about where he's run from and you go into the Sherwood Ellis thing and the two road names that intersect in Westview wasn't

[01:05:13] Ellis Street the street that they couldn't go beyond because that's as far as Wanda's power is extended it was something like don't go beyond Ellis Street so I loved all that I asked to scrotum again

[01:05:46] so I have a love of everything Todd stashwick he's just fantastic and again he's if you follow him on Instagram he does some amazing kind of D&D as well but the helmet just is a bit weird it looks a bit like the fly well I

[01:06:12] the tick yes yes yeah he looks a bit like that there's just big bulge eyes and i was like yeah it's not great hopefully he gets an upgrade now after getting his kind of uh butt whooped in this second episode yeah it is a nod to his comic book yes the comic book outfit is very similar to this the colors are completely different and completely outlandish because it's the 70s he first appeared in daredevil issue 150 and he basically was just following

[01:06:40] daredevil to find to find his target um so that he could take the credit for finding his target so yeah very similar character willing to use anything in his power to get his prey that's that's effectively it so uh so he is on the cover of 150 you'll see what he looks like i think it's like a brown and a brown and blue uh kind of suit looks very similar to the live action suit but the live action is black which is cool and just to say this weekend we had new york comic-con was on in new york and todd satrick met up with charlie cox and had a photograph together uh excellent just to introduce

[01:07:09] him to the mcu he has also brought us our first genuine whiskey watch in a while yes on uh defenders uh podcasts or defenders tv podcast um as we do see him um grabbing a swaffered 12-year highland single malt whiskey um that seems to be his tipple uh yeah as he finds out through his earpiece with um his

[01:07:39] handler about tommy and billy in westview so that's good did you notice when he goes into the bar uh while waiting for vision he goes through the entire whiskey shelf to find one that he likes before he pours it which is very smart i like that he has that little uh that little touch with this character but yeah kind of cool to have a bit of whiskey watch uh when you start off a new mcu series uh also a little nod back to uh to one division um he's done his homework he talks to vision and

[01:08:04] goes i'd offer you a drink but i know it messes up your insides because he had that piece of gum in a one division which messed up vision for uh for a whole episode yeah oh yeah um but yeah but uh but white vision knocks back the shot of whiskey and goes i'm a very different person than that yes don't mess with me i think that's a really good way of doing it because it's kind of what i was trying to get to in code line one this this notion where he says you know it's when he's gone to meet paladin

[01:08:34] at the coordinates that have been encrypted into his message and he says you know i don't feel you know you assume i care about this tommy uh while it's true i was once him i am not vision um which then made me scream because i'd written him down as vision in my notes up till then and i was like what do we call you then vision two white it's white vision but that's just another word to

[01:09:01] have to write yeah and so yeah um vision yeah there is no other vision but i i like that it's just a different thing and you have him grabbing the paladin by the neck as well um and throwing him across the room don't know necessarily what he's gonna do and so i kind of like that there's this little bit of a harder edge here with the white vision um yeah i think it's just a really sort of great touch

[01:09:29] and i like love that interaction with the paladin as he then kind of you know he does switch it round um as he said a bit like with ultron he says um there's more to this world than science there's monsters winston wizards and witches um and winston's apparently winston's wizards sorry wizards and

[01:09:54] witches and wabbits yes indeed um and you know where he says well he's as close to a son as you will ever get um so loved all that i just think some really meaningful sort of interactions between these characters and of course as well the paladin is connected to um i'm guessing the unknown at this moment in time around who his client absolutely i was going to say the big real mystery that we have

[01:10:21] an antagonist in ultron but the real big mystery is who put the hit out on vision um you know we we hear after every time that paladin fails capturing vision we hear that the uh the client uh hacks into the handlers uh probably pretty secure uh communication lines and talks directly to paladin so i guess they're watching from wherever they are they can have this guy visibility who is

[01:10:48] this person yeah absolutely yeah i mean i don't know part of me is like going you know is sword technically around so it could be sword um also known as shield in space as we remember from one division um because you know we kind of wondering how much traction that would get certainly made it into the marvels um movie yeah but again is it something around them trying to find

[01:11:14] their asset or is it just something completely different and i think it is that i'm hoping it's that rather than it being sword well they they say that the weapon got away and maybe they want to get their weapon back that's why they're trying to get vision back but remember that was it was one agent of uh of uh sword that created this vision and he's gone now right yes he was taken out at the end of wandavision so um so sword aren't particularly after no vision no it is called that the people

[01:11:42] have been looking for him and it's vision throughout and he does mention sword but they they aren't kind of like actively they everyone believes he's gone yeah like no more dead deceased um but they also they kind of sprinkle in that they are they hint that this could be ultra ultra is the the voice

[01:12:05] um like you're to a degree i think they're trying to kind of point that direction um but as you get to the end of the uh episodes where you see the the voice from beyond calling in ultron is already doing something and kind of conversing a different thing now maybe we'll find it someone else but i think the reveal

[01:12:32] will be it will be a well-known character that we know who who this person is remember the power broker still out there yeah um that's true yes agent sharon carter yeah agent 13 and so she's still out there from our days in the falcon and the winter soldier captain america and the winter soldier

[01:12:53] yeah um so it's like i think there's enough people that it could be and i think they'll they'll pull it out as a big mid-season oh my god is that person yeah i think that's the that's the the big piece yeah but that's that's the mystery and we don't have enough information right now we just know that they uh they're able to hack in pretty easily to uh to um the the communications and i just find it

[01:13:20] really interesting as i say within about three seconds of uh paladin failing to kill uh vision which is what he's supposed to be doing or take in the vision uh but within about three seconds suddenly this person's uh arriving to say you failed you know um so they clearly have a way of watching on to see him fail um let's move on to our final code line uh for this episode code line

[01:13:45] number five uh jarvis sacrifice um because we do need to talk about uh the final battle and what happens um it is still related to paladin um because yeah as we have um vision following the leads to uh go to saint maven's and and save tommy uh we've talked about the escape already so we don't need to go back over that but as he's leaving uh paladin arrives with his shotgun full of adamantium bullets

[01:14:12] where do you get those from um we saw the reveal of adamantium in this universe back in uh back in america brave new world where there was a battle over tiamat this the celestial island from uh from eternals um and the the uh adamantium was there so he's got his hands on some of the adamantium to make these bullets um i really like this i just like the touch i think it's very funny that he has four bullets shoots all four bullets and goes oh because he didn't bring enough adamantium to actually fully

[01:14:42] you might kill him but uh vision's still standing and still powerful enough to take paladin down i just think it's quite funny that he didn't have enough bullets uh even though he has the something that can actually attack vision i love that vision went in and was so confident that he'd be able to do it because he's like well you know nobody can take down this vibranium body of mine what's he gonna do you know and he does have something that can take it down yeah absolutely um i think

[01:15:09] what's this is also just before this we do is where we have uh mission impossible edith coming down where she starts going through and the sort of fashion inconsistencies uh as well which is is really good um yeah i mean i wasn't kind of expecting the java sacrifice um where you have this

[01:15:36] destabilizing because of the emp cage and the trap that has been set and you get the destabilizing then of the visions or visions processes uh so you have then uh jarvis i think sacrificing himself but again it all it feels like it's queued up by ultron saying you know the noble self-sacrifice this would be

[01:16:04] a good time for the noble self-sacrifice yeah and you know as he diverts um his processing power and to you see it going into friday dummy you uh edith and i presume ultron as well after the emp has opened his own cage up because that's where he escapes uh from his upstairs room so i thought this was interesting i know i know it's not a major point but you see it go into vision because

[01:16:34] vision is able to stand up afterwards and you see it happen with edith you see it happen with dummy and you and with and we're friday you don't see it happen no you don't you see ultron walking into the room where all the rest of the ais are and saying this would be a great time for a sacrifice not me yeah and then you see him standing outside vision's body going oh he was like he wasn't even second on my list i'm really sorry to see jarvis go but who was he talking about the only person that would sacrifice themselves was going to be jarvis no i think but the whole thing you i think

[01:17:03] it was like you were dummy yeah maybe like those two like maybe he talks about he calls him expendable or something yeah right similar when he they they go up to fetch him and bring him down yeah um earlier in the show because i turn sideways to get him out of the lift i literally just thought it was ultron just pushing um jarvis over the cliff edge knowing that he would take the bait basically well

[01:17:30] it it might be but i mean because even just before that i mean and it's one of the really great moments actually of episode two for me and it does kind of it it kicks off ultron really persuading vision to go after tommy when they go over and the episode is theseus and where

[01:17:57] he goes over you know that the philosophical question of theseus that we saw at the end of wandavision this notion of once you've updated replaced repaired changed all the the planks on the ship is it still theseus's ship and or not and you have ultron saying well it's just a philosophical

[01:18:19] question and he says but it's bs um you get so lost up in the question that you don't think about the king that's why you know theseus or the story and that is that theseus built the ship to go and save the children of his country from a monster that gets lost and he says when a monster has your son don't be the ship be the goddamn king and and then you have that little nod to him where he says long

[01:18:48] live the king to um vision i'm like okay so is this also kind of just is this just predetermining something around this as well how how this is being thought of whether it's through the client i'm not entirely sure but it's just so thematically quite nice what happens there with both of those

[01:19:13] things that i'm like going yeah it's just really good and it also just connects to wandavision so there's a there's a real good thematic connection going on here and i really like how it's kind of picked apart by ultron to say it's it's just a sophomore's sort of word salad and and you know this counterfactual that's being done but it's philosophical nonsense because you forget about

[01:19:40] the actual story yeah and the fact is they were built they rebuilt the ship over and over again to honor the sacrifice that the king made be the king uh really really like that and very dangerous of terry mattelis to write this into a script because that line from jack schaefer was the underpinning of what happened to vision at the end of wandavision it's a massive moment loads of people know that quote loads of people were talking about the uh that that um thought experiment i guess

[01:20:09] back uh back when that was in wandavision and then to five years later to go out and on your first episode rewrite uh that story it's a very uh interesting uh tack to take in your your new show isn't it yeah and i i'm very interested to see what how the world takes that because it is iconic now

[01:20:33] like the theseus experiment okay it was it was a college thing from years for years for years but it became pop culture because of the show exactly this show that they should the show's predecessor and this character and you're right he basically goes but it doesn't matter yeah it does not matter and it's a really good way of saying it like absolutely if he if he had have just turned

[01:20:59] around and went it doesn't matter yeah it's not it's not a thing then you're like oh okay well yeah this is just a new person throwing out the the toys with the bathwater because they don't want to be they want their own thing no no no no he has paid homage throughout this episode to both grief and the ship of theseus and because of that he's paid homage but he's given it the updated version of what

[01:21:25] it means within his show absolutely and i think that's the cool part and it's also it's ultron saying actually there's there's two things to take away from this there is the philosophical question of theseus's ship but in this moment if you are looking for it to inspire you or as ultron has said you know where he's trying to stir vision into action it's that be the king theseus and go after the monster

[01:21:53] which is getting your son or a child you know or young adult like whatever it is and i think you're right i think this is a really nice way of sort of thematically bringing something through as a through line and also then just as you say putting their own spin on it but not undermining the initial

[01:22:17] one because that as well was a conversation between two visions who are very philosophical and it made sense for them it's the same notion it's the same idea here it's it's the quirk in the code saying trying to get him to understand more about himself yeah yeah and he uses that as his sort of

[01:22:44] springboard and it also ultimately leads then to jarvis's sacrifice so the point as well that i was trying to sort of bring through this was that it feels like you know he sets this up yes and then he kind of his cage is sprung for himself whilst vision is in his emp cage he comes out talks about the

[01:23:09] noble self-sacrifice probably realizes that the stiff upper-lipped british security ai security ai that's who is most likely to do it he may bit of red herring and then has long live the king again it does it's a nice encapsulation here of this i thought it was also just the shock of like jarvis going into

[01:23:35] his various bites and at that moment as well i wasn't expecting that and i then was suddenly wondering oh i will will friday be consumed somehow by this story will edith will do me and you yeah you know is that kind of part of the the notion of that yeah so it'd be interesting i think i think they

[01:24:00] might i think they might do that that all of them are consumed and become the part of the new vision and they all kind of give themselves uh and part of their code into vision that creates him to be the third version of the vision he's not the original he's not the white he's yeah something else and then i think what we will get is they'll either keep it like that or they'll do the the usual

[01:24:29] not the usual that's not fair they'll do the trope where he has the power he brings them back as an additional figment in his brain and they're no longer yeah something like that or he creates them yeah or they can go out and be their own versions in the world you know by the end of it so we may have yeah um a version of friday a version of either the walking around in the mcu uh but also you know

[01:24:55] paul bettany has been around since the start of iron man right um he's been the voice all the way back to the original iron man he's been around as long as any other character actor in the movies and they've all had their moments and all said their farewells i know some of them are coming back for doomsday now but um he's been around a very long time let's say so uh this could be the swan song it's the end of the trilogy this could be goodbye to vision uh in this universe as well so um we don't know we've still got uh we've still got six more episodes of the show to go um do want

[01:25:24] to just close out with you know that moment with uh with tommy uh who comes back to save uh save vision gets him in the car um takes him away and the reason he does it is as you mentioned jan earlier on because he's his something and he wants to know the answers to the questions that he had can you imagine after the last year and a half of having all this all this stuff in your head that the person that has the person that has the only answers in the world for you gets shot and killed in front of you and you run away and leave him behind to die you know um yeah i do like that he

[01:25:52] said yeah as you say i do like he says i have questions you know and again you just have ultron popping up in the back seat where he says he didn't listen like father like son i'm just like this all feels so loaded from all everything um and i love it i'm absolutely there for it uh because it it's it makes it so kind of dense and half of it may never actually pan out but i

[01:26:18] love it when you can sort of just be theorizing about what might that might mean exactly um yeah it always makes for a good viewing absolutely absolutely um before we close out our our lines of code uh any notes anything else you want to attach to uh to the episode i think we've mentioned it previously but there is a little bit of a star trek picard um get together or reunion here with

[01:26:46] terry metallis uh todd stashwick and then all of brady who plays friday and they were all in um picard so that's kind of nice to see because they're all great in that they were i remember going through those three seasons of the show and every time todd stashwick appeared we were like oh he's so good i hope he gets a spin-off show and every time orla brady appeared we were like oh she's fantastic i hope she's the new relationship for picard and then she was kind of written out in the third season

[01:27:13] and tossed out which todd stashwick didn't get the sequel series that we hoped he was going to get um but yeah it's kind of cool to have to have them back here uh i know uh carrie condon originally voiced friday in the uh in the marvel cinematic universe so orla brady being the character here at least it's an irish actress uh doing the irish voice again you know yeah but she hasn't said hey boss i'm here for you yeah so oh it's so coming you know it's definitely you know it and orla died a little

[01:27:42] bit inside which he had to record it that's why carrie condon didn't come back um one of the things for my notes i just wanted to mention it because the show is based in the uk we have it based in edinburgh here um just some american writing errors i'm really surprised that paul bettley didn't pull them up on some of these things uh that are in there we have um the fact they're calling it edinboro uh rather than edinburgh uh which is a very american tourist thing as opposed to someone that's

[01:28:09] lived in the uk you know very quickly it's edinburgh right um but also there's a conversation between um vision and his boss where she's inviting him over to sunday roast and she says i'm not going to make you taste the blood pudding with the roast like who does black pudding with a roast no who calls it blood pudding when they're describing it to somebody else even if she was saying haggis with

[01:28:34] the sunday roast you could get that as a bit of a joke but he's british she suspects he's british right he has a british accent yes he's not american he's not a tourist from america yeah i mean unless you there is blood pudding there's blood pudding stuffing there's blood pudding stuffing there's black pudding stuffing my god blood pudding stop saying it i'm just saying it now because we said blood

[01:28:59] pudding there's black pudding stuffing which is black pudding with kind of mixed into your usual chicken stuffing yeah yeah like that's the only time i've ever heard of pudding and stuffing together like it's like they wanted to get the two things in there sunday roast is really popular for inviting mates over to have dinner having a fry up with black pudding is really popular particularly in the north of england and into scotland blood pudding just sounds disgusting

[01:29:28] yeah so they wanted to get the joke in about it no it is they're right it is blood pudding but it's like but someone would not say that and the other one that i thought was a pretty unacceptable for some reason and it's just to tie back to one division on the on the sitcoms for some reason ultron in a pub in edinburgh is watching on television sanford and sons now sanford and sons was the 70s american remake of a very very famous british sitcom steptoe and sons and i've never seen

[01:29:55] an episode of it on television in the uk ever so surely they would have steptoe and son on tv there yes agreed i think that i know they wanted to give a nod to a sitcom yes and that's why he's tied into it but it would even if it was steptoe and son it didn't matter that it was sanford and son other than it's made for an american audience right absolutely and that's exactly why it must be but

[01:30:19] it would have been interesting to have the stepto and son and because actually then for the american audience that's a really deep like they've got to go and explore that and find out about that you know exactly british people had sitcoms too yeah we did i mean it was awful it should it should have been allow allow or something just to really confuse the american audiences that would be even worse

[01:30:45] oh my god that would know that would have been brilliant it would have been that's because then we have so many just as he says good morning it would be fantastic did you know that actually three members of the cast of aloe aloe have just started a podcast going through every episode of aloe aloe oh excellent i think they may have they may have uh have caught our transcriptions of our podcast about how many how many times we mentioned aloe aloe over the course of the last 16 years and god

[01:31:12] hang on a second there's money in this somewhere there isn't guys there isn't welcome to podcast for the love of the game one last note for me that i wanted to mention in episode two the tattooed man chris you mentioned the singing of the christmas carol um the tattooed man that's on the bus singing is um he's singing jingle bells um when tommy and lisa are escaping the bus uh that's hainsley lloyd barrett who played baza on uh pennyworth yeah excellent um we used to love seeing baza he's a lovely a lovely guy as

[01:31:41] well um hainsley lloyd barrett used to attract to this loads when we watched uh pennyworth and we were podcasting about pennyworth so uh great to see him on there and it's just really interesting to see a character a character actor like him that had quite a big role in pennyworth absolutely and the prison guard actually is was um in the uk version of shameless as well um which was really good and a real surprise a character actor again who'd been around in

[01:32:07] what 12 seasons of uh of shameless to just get a bullet in the head i know exactly you think they were building him up to be this kind of antagonist for tommy or something and then yeah gets a bullet to the head but even then he comes back again and it's like later in the episode you're like when he's been taken to mavens yeah and with the gun so you're like oh he's still around okay how is this gonna play out bang okay it's not well it does but it's abrupt

[01:32:34] it's very abrupt absolutely um that's it for my notes any other notes anything else you want to mention nothing from my side no nothing from my side either i just am absolutely shocked there's an aloe aloe podcast and i'm like i really want to listen to this they have three seasons of it like back to back ready i'm like yes excellent excellent um i only know about it because i saw a

[01:32:59] video of the actor who plays uh hair flick uh in full costume um inviting people to listen to his new podcast uh excellent and he'll say it only once of course uh but that is enough enough oh i have one more note that i just wanted to mention uh the adamantium bullets um just really quickly in case you didn't see it because we watched these episodes a couple of times um that's mentioned in a news story on the side of the newspaper that vision is reading there is a mention of

[01:33:29] adamantium being stolen and we find out in the second episode that it is paladin who's stolen the adamantium to make the bullets which i just think is really interesting so uh keep an eye on tv stations keep an eye on newspapers uh there are some uh references that will play out as the season goes on that we're not going to talk about here because we don't want to spoil anything for anybody but with that guys i think we're on to our final section finalish section do you defend vision

[01:33:55] quest episode one and two chris yes i am not even bearing the lead here um i really enjoyed this it uh it does need to be viewed back to back that's why we're broadcasting about it back to back um the first episode is very much um getting you up to speed as much as possible i still feel unfortunately it does feel slightly like you do need to do homework in order to get the most out of

[01:34:25] this you need to have watched one division and agatha all along and i feel it is slightly detracted by that but i think most people who are watching who are going to be watching vision quest will have watched the other two series or anyway um and i do typically marvel will tonight or tomorrow

[01:34:51] in the u.s will put out a here's everything you need to know youtube video uh kind of previously on da da da and it will get most people up to speed um otherwise they'll just link to youtubers who have done it already multiple times um we should do that shouldn't we we should yeah we should if we had time i could i could read out all my uh all my cheat notes that i wrote for this episode uh we could

[01:35:15] do that as an episode yeah there you go yeah um this it was a good it's a good solid foundation it sets up enough that i want to watch more and that's all i really needed right now yeah so yes i defend johnners do you defend this episode or these episodes of vision quest yes i absolutely do defend um these two episodes of vision quest i'd give it four and a half blood

[01:35:45] puddings with nightmare omelets uh out of five just to give the breakfast theme that um that should be for the old blood pudding yes because it doesn't go with roasts but uh no i absolutely love these i think um i think like we've said it was really good to release them both together um i mean episode one is really it's a good amount of time it's like 50 odd minutes um the second one's slightly shorter

[01:36:14] but i i feel they're quite condensed that like they feel quite condensed there's a lot in them um but not necessarily much story so i like but i i'm liking the overall themes here um around someone trying to find themselves to try and find uh meaning there that that quote that i kind of had forgotten about it um that vision talks about to ultron is um basically vision saying i have his memories but not

[01:36:43] his feelings i have his face but not his virtue all i can feel is the weight of him his legacy his worthiness and his name yeah um and i just think it's this notion of him being untethered i think is another word that he uses and um like he feels untethered um he doesn't quite understand the

[01:37:07] version of who he should be and i like how that just like kind of connects in with um thomas shepard or and tommy maximoff here this this trying to understand what's happened understand himself understand these two realities that has happened to thomas shepard and i think it's a really

[01:37:31] interesting sort of alleyway that they're going down here i love ultron here as i say i think james spader could be just the voice would i put in at night and i would suddenly become you know a brain surgeon and have great sleep um it would just be one of those things really good

[01:37:52] um i'm loving all the ai synths in in there as well so absolutely um i defend these first two episodes of vision quest uh and i think combined i'd give them four and a half blood puddings with nightmare omelets out of five fantastic derek do you defend these two episodes of vision quest

[01:38:17] yep i absolutely defend them i loved every minute of time that we spent with uh paul bettley in this role as vision and all of the ai i think the cast together is really good you know it's a real surprise originally to um as the trailers are coming out and as the information was coming out of the show uh who they were bringing into the show was just really surprising all of the uh former um ais really cool to have them all uh in their human avatars having ultron here is fantastic james spader's doing

[01:38:46] such a brilliant job you know i think chris you mentioned him being really famous for boss and legal um i'm a kid of the 80s as well and he was always the really greasy villainous bad guy and all the uh and all the rom-coms of the 80s as well and that's what i still remember him as and now he's got this brilliant villain role uh all the way this many years later now uh that he's playing up to so well they don't miss a step even though we saw him in that initial moment as ultron and then he

[01:39:14] becomes the human avatar he's still just as uh fantastic to watch in either form uh which i love as well so yeah really enjoying it love paladin love the idea of this uh of this uh hit out on ultron the mystery there as to who it is that's uh that wants to kill the former avenger uh what's going on there that's really really interesting and really intriguing and i'm loving seeing this tommy maximoff story we spent time with both tommy and billy back in one division we had a whole season

[01:39:44] of a show dedicated to billy finding himself and now we have tommy in a completely different circumstance trying to find himself as well so i love the connection between the three seasons of this overarching mcu show which pretty much started the mcu on tv with one division and will probably end the mcu on tv with uh with vision quest because i feel like they're moving away from a lot of tv uh even though we will be seeing some other mcu projects uh in future i think this might be

[01:40:10] the bookend they're looking for for that storyline i suppose um so yeah and what a great way to kick it off yeah absolutely absolutely i think we need to go to the local pub for a point yes i'm not doing a scottish accent okay yeah so what pub are we going to john well yes welcome fellow defenders

[01:40:32] and uh fellow quizzes to the old selkie vision quest pub quiz fantastic yes we tried so hard to get the name of the pub we were pausing it back and forth back and forth back and forth we had it written down as the old seek pub about 12 times until we found out what a selkie was and so uh yeah the old selkie is definitely the name of the pub isn't it it certainly is um but yes welcome back uh everyone who

[01:40:59] does enjoy a good old pub quiz uh it is the old selkie uh get yourselves um a 12 year old swafford if it actually does exist um and if not just make it up in your mind's construct um 78 we have two questions um for uh this podcast uh for episode one we have what electrical store is vision hiding out in

[01:41:27] you know if the show was based in the us i was wondering if uh if it would be the same um electronic store radio shack that uh that captain marvel was in back in her movie um but it's based in the uk so has to be something else it's not radio shack there you go that's my clue uh john what's the second question and the second question is what wing of saint maven's psychiatric hospital is thomas shepherd locked in by the paladin interesting that's it that's a tougher one but you'll be

[01:41:55] able to get it yeah it is it is set on screen uh john do you want to give those two questions one more time yes uh for episode one what electrical store is vision hiding out in and for episode two question two what wing of saint maven's psychiatric hospital is thomas shepherd locked in by the paladin fantastic that's the first two questions of eight at the end of the season when you get all eight

[01:42:21] questions give us the correct answers email them into feedback at tv podcast industries.com and you could get your hands on some vision quest goodies that's us thank you so much for joining us for our chat all about the first two episodes of vision quest we will be back next week for our chat about episode three reboot and episode four malware and those two episodes are going to be released on the 21st of

[01:42:44] october very special date in the tv podcast industries calendar oh a very special day because someone somewhere in the defender's mind construct is uh is having a birthday yeah uh the big 5-0 that's the reason you remember the v for vendetta comics it is yes absolutely i think i remember the first periods of paladin and daredevil comics as well

[01:43:14] to be honest remember remember the 1970s yes uh absolutely um so yes this is also the other reason why we're doing two episodes a week because there's quite a lot going on around my 50th birthday and i'm getting old uh so uh so merging all these together makes it a bit easier and we're going to be celebrating a lot and spending a lot of time together outside of the microphones over the

[01:43:38] next couple of weeks yes yeah yes we will but if you have feedback on derek's uh pending doom uh as he kind of crests that hill into the 40s i mean the new 50s oh you're editing this podcast gonna be really short chris yeah you can you could send it to feedback at tvpodcastindries.com or just make sure to send us your feedback on all episodes of if you want one division or agatha

[01:44:07] along or more importantly vision quest because that's more on topic for this so make sure you send that to feedback at tvpodcastindustries.com or head on over to our facebook group at facebook.com slash tvpodcastindustries or make sure you head on over to our recently kicked off and quite active discord which you can find in the show notes below absolutely yep looking forward to seeing you and

[01:44:34] looking forward to hearing your thoughts about the rest of the episodes thanks so much joining us talk to you again next time bye yeah thank you so much fellow defenders can't wait to uh speak to you about episodes three and four uh until then of course keep watching keep listening and keep defending

[01:44:51] bye bye this is defenders on tv podcast industries we're back with t tv podcast industries

[01:45:36] hey oh chris hey dummy dummy get stuff done he does he does see it's all about you gotta get stuff done derek what are you no response derek zultron derek i was just trying to think of the word

[01:46:06] dunce yes but wasn't it also the sulky was a folklorian tailed kind of seahorse beast thing possibly which just turned out to be seals yeah yeah yes you know this yes sorry sorry he's like maybe chris i don't know that science workshop so i've got science 96 accurate yes

[01:46:38] one more time but unable or unwilling to help him they send him to saint mabel's sanatorium they send him to saint mayburn's sanatorium on the transfer bus to the heavily guarded facility tommy meets kleptomaniac lisa the two quickly hit it off and working together they escape the bus

[01:47:03] and their fate in the present day paladin lays a trap for vision by placing the kidnapped tommy sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry what's that laundrette i think that i think that ought to correct it but it might have just been me mistyping saint mayburn's yeah i mean this is what i was alluding to so i didn't say sword

[01:47:30] i've edited you out there so you need to say it again if you suspected sword sorry are you chris no no let him let him throw himself under the bus yeah i mean i don't know part of me is like going you know is sword technically around so it could be sword um also known as shield in space as we remember from one division

[01:47:59] paladin arrives with his shotgun full of adamantium bullets where do you get those from um we saw the reveal of adamantium in this universe back in uh back in captain america brave new world uh where we had um the where we had the government um getting adamantium into the u.s for the first time um and it being revealed that it's in the universe it's part of the uh part of the um inhuman not the inhumans

[01:48:30] that's it it was part of the celeste the it was part of the battle that was going on over celestial island uh from the um eternals eternals can't get the two of them that's the problem and the celestial team it yeah and there's paladin with a shotgun full of adamantium bullets uh adamantium was revealed as being part of the universe back in uh in captain america brave new world uh where there was a battle over the um

[01:48:59] timus the uh celeste yep from the eternals shall i write it down where there was i've written everything else down stop it jonners do you defend this episode or these episodes of one oh i can say one division

[01:49:27] a vision quest you can send it to feedback at tvpodcastinterview.com or just make sure to send us your feedback on all episodes of if you want one division or agatha all along or more importantly vision quest because that's more on topic for this so make sure you send that to there feedback at tv feedback at tv oh my god you know that where he says

[01:49:58] todd stashwick is excruciating thanks thanks i'm sorry i just thought it worked oh i love it add feedback at tv industries oh tv industries it's written right there as well i know i can't see it you read good chris i read good me read good or feedback at tv industries oh my god

[01:50:27] ha ha ha ha ha ha ha you