VisionQuest Episode 7 Review

[00:00:00] This is the Defenders Podcast on TV Podcast Industries. We are back with the penultimate episode of VisionQuest, Episode 7, Immolation.

[00:00:08] I am the Vision. I have always been the Vision. There is only one. And I am he. And I am impossibly broken. You are healed. And I envy you.

[00:01:05] Welcome back, fellow Defenders, to the Defenders Podcast on TV Podcast Industries. We are talking about the penultimate episode of VisionQuest, Episode 7, Immolation. Just one episode this week, and I am one of your hosts, Derek. Hello there, fellow Defenders. Welcome back. I am one of your other hosts, John. Yep, Chris is skiving again. Yep, locked up in somebody's mind palace somewhere. That was Google's, basically.

[00:01:32] Thinking about what he's doing for himself. And he will be back for our finale podcast next week. We're recording a little bit early this week, but there is only one episode, and there's lots to talk about. A really, really good episode here in Episode 7, wasn't it? Absolutely, yeah. Really enjoyed this. So glad they just released one this time, rather than two at a time. Yeah.

[00:01:57] You know, I'm not adverse to holding hands, but I do think episodes are best solitary. Yes. Coming at us. It's much easier for us. So I really enjoyed this, because I can kind of just sort of relax into it, rather than thinking, oh, I've got another one or two more episodes to cover. Yeah. Which is ultimately going to be the case with Rings of Power when they release four. I mean, I don't know what crazy person thought that up.

[00:02:26] In a day as well. In a day, I know. You might as well just release the entire series. But anyway, not to detract from, ultimately, an absolutely fantastic series. And in particular, I must say, I've been really, really enjoying these last few episodes. And this one is just a continuation of that for me. I think this one works really well as an episode on its own, because there's lots to think about, lots to talk about.

[00:02:55] And we'll chat all about it as we get into our discussion on the podcast here. Just a reminder, again, if you haven't subscribed to the podcast, we're getting close to the end of our coverage of Vision Quest. But as John mentioned, loads more stuff to come throughout the rest of this year, including the third season of Lord of the Rings, The Rings of Power, coming out on the 11th of November, just in a week's time. So I'll be going straight into that. You can subscribe to the podcast over on our website at tvpodcastindustries.com. You can subscribe to any Wiccan or Android-loving podcast player over there.

[00:03:25] We also want to hear your thoughts about the shows that we're covering. You can email us to feedback at tvpodcastindustries.com. Pop on over to our Facebook group at facebook.com slash groups slash TV Podcast Industries, or go to our Discord server. The details of which are in the show notes right here. We are also continuing our Vision Quest pub quiz with one more question in this very episode towards the end of the episode. That'll be question seven. And at the end of the series, all you need to do is email us with your correct answers.

[00:03:52] And you could be able to chance of getting your hands on some Vision Quest goodies. Yes, indeed. Fellow defenders and fellow quizzers, just send them in to feedback at tvpodcastindustries.com. All eight answers. Excellent stuff. Looking forward to it. I think we should get into our spoiler-filled discussion of episode seven, Immolation. Derek, who gave us what, where, when, and how? And why?

[00:04:19] Well, I can't give you all of that information, but the show was created for television by Terry Metallus. But why, Derek? Previously brought us Star Trek Picard because he's a great showrunner, a great creator for TV. I don't know why he took over from Jack Schafer and why Jack Schafer didn't stay around for the third part in her trilogy of shows, which started with WandaVision. But Terry Metallus is delivering a really interesting take on the character of Vision and the continuation of the story. I wrote in our notes originally that this is based on the Vision created by Tony Stark,

[00:04:49] Bruce Banner, and brought alive by Thor. That may change by the time we get to the end of the season. As we're learning, there are other people involved in the creation of Vision that we weren't aware of back in the day. So we may be changing that for next week's episode. But really, the character was created by Roy Thomas and artist John Beshema, and he first appeared in The Avengers number 57. The executive producers for the show are Kevin Feige, Louis Desposito, Brad Winderbaum, Mary Levanus, Terry Metallus, Jack Schafer, and Christopher J. Byrne.

[00:05:18] This episode was directed by showrunner Terry Metallus, and the episode was written by Matthew Okumara. He was a writer and story editor on 15 episodes of Star Trek Picard, and he got his start on season two of Smallville. So excellent stuff. So a good mix of hero shows. I did like Smallville then. I think it's possibly one of the few times I've enjoyed Superman. Oh, really? Yeah. I forgot that you're not that massive a Superman fan. No. And the other one was Henry Cavill. Of course. Yeah.

[00:05:48] I mean, don't get me wrong, like Christopher Reeve as well. So actually, I'm sort of unpicking my own argument here. But I mean, Christopher Reeve as a kid, love. Of course. But I remember growing up, I was like, well, I'm not really that bothered. And then Smallville came on. I was like, I like this. And then increasingly, it was like, oh, not bothered. And then Henry Cavill came along. And it's great. Yeah. And now I'm kind of not necessarily bothered again. Interesting. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. I don't know.

[00:06:18] But it's more just because it's more the actor, it depends who plays them. And actually, I really like the current actor who plays Superman in the James Gunn verse of DC. DC. But it's not a character I connected, even when I like the actor, to be honest. And when I say I really enjoyed Henry Cavill, I really liked Man of Steel. I found it very emotional. Yeah. It really was a great retelling of the origin. So I like that. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:06:45] Like, I probably, I mean, as down on Superman as you, I did enjoy the last Superman movie. I'm very much looking forward to Superman Man tomorrow coming out next summer, where we get a bit of a bigger push for Superman, Supergirl, The Lanterns, you know, a much bigger movie coming up next year. And I enjoyed the last Superman movie. I didn't think it was the best Superman movie ever made, but I did enjoy it. And David Cornswit was really good as Superman in there. No, he is. He is.

[00:07:11] And to be honest, I kind of really enjoyed it until it started going like bananas, like with a fissure opening up, you know, across the mantle of the Earth. Well, yeah. And like a black hole forming. I was like, does it really need to be this excessive? You know? The first movie in your new universe. Yeah. Yeah. I was just like, whatever. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:07:41] Checked out. But at least you've absolutely loved Lex Luthor as well. I do, actually. I kind of like the villains. It's kind of why I like Batman. He's kind of a little bit dark and dangerous. Absolutely. Yeah. You always like dark and dangerous. But this is not our Superman podcast. It's not even our DC podcast. Exactly. We have a whole podcast for that. If you want to hear our thoughts on the recent Lantern series, that's over there as well. We haven't recorded our podcast about Clayface yet, although we did really enjoy it.

[00:08:10] Highly recommend going to see that in the cinema. Yes. Really enjoyable horror movie. Absolutely. Really good fun. But for this show, for Vision Quest, episode seven, Immolation, John, do you want to give us your synopsis? Sure. In 1939, Phineas Horton creates J.I.M., Jim, to cope with the death of his son, James. His focus on the creation of this alternate synthetic being alienates his wife and daughter.

[00:08:36] After Phineas sells their home to fund his obsession, his estranged wife and his daughter leave him and emigrate to New York. His daughter takes Phineas' scientific notepad with her. In the present, Jocasta uses the collected biokeys to unlock the nest which stores her nanobots. But a sixth key is required to unlock the cradle that she was unaware of. Using the keys has, however, set off a chain reaction that brings the client to both her and Vision.

[00:09:06] The client makes an offer to Jocasta to help her learn about her past and restore her missing memories. While he also offers Vision access to his subconsciousness to find his source code. He promises this code will fix Lisa and make Vision complete by allowing him to feel. In return, Vision will surrender himself to the client or face destruction. Requiring a significant energy supply, Vision enters his subconsciousness with help from

[00:09:34] the paladin and a familiar weapon once wielded by Corvus Glaive. In his sub-processes, Vision encounters manifestations of Ultron, the original Vision, J.I.M. and Horton. Speaking with Jim, Vision is forced to confront the reality that the memories he has are in fact his own, and he accepts that Tommy is his son. Jim provides Vision with Horton's original code, allowing him to neutralize the nanobot-controlled

[00:10:03] Lisa just in time. Meanwhile, Ultron and Friday follow Jocasta into her memories, where she finds that as Joe Carrington, she had a partner who resembled Ultron's human avatar. The client, Carrington's partner, captures Jocasta as Ultron throws Friday off a balcony in Jocasta's mind space. As Vision must now surrender himself to the client, he leaves Tommy and Lisa asleep after

[00:10:32] they fly to London from Madriapur. Vision leaves Tommy a message and all episodes of WandaVision, acknowledging him as his son and the loss of the rest of his family, Billy and Wanda. After Vision is delivered to the client by paladin at the manor house resembling Phineas Horton's estate, the client's men blow up the paladin in his murder van as he leaves,

[00:10:55] and the shadowy client and owner of the estate with shotgun in hand comes into the light and is revealed to be Ultron's human avatar. With an incredibly, incredibly well-maintained manicured moustache. Yeah, tacho. This show is also not only about hats, it's also about facial hair. It certainly is. It certainly is. Did you see the interview with James Spader about the beard that was out there last week? He was saying that effectively he got cast in the role.

[00:11:25] He was cast in sometime around June. It was just around the time of his son's wedding. And he was like, well, I've got to prepare for this role. I've got four months to prepare. I'm just going to grow the beard from now until then. So that's a four-month beard, and it's all James Spader's beard. It's not hair and makeup. So he must have turned up at first outset and said, this is what I'm doing. I've been trapped in the loft by Vision for five years, and this is what would have happened to Ultron. And the hair and makeup people went, okay, I guess we're keeping it then.

[00:11:55] So it was his own idea. Good stuff. I think it makes sense. It makes sense. Yes, for sure. Yes, because AI avatars always grow beards. And I mean, to... It's a choice. Yes, it is. And I think as well, to quote in kind of reverse from Hot Fuzz, the only unbelievable thing in this movie was the fact that Lisa and Tommy don't wake up when they're playing Lance.

[00:12:24] Well, that was also a very weird moment in this episode, wasn't it? Yeah. I did find that really funny. It was like, with everything going on, the least believable thing is the fact that they don't wake up when it touches down. I know they've had a really stressful couple of days in Madripoor, and then they fly all the way back to the UK, but fall asleep and don't wake up. Exactly. I mean, I guess it was a private Learjet by the looks of it.

[00:12:53] So maybe the pilot was super duper gentle. You know, not like kind of a Ryanair one where it's like the undercarriage of the plane is about to sort of disintegrate because of the force of impact. It's kind of like the space shuttle returning to Earth. Where they want to wake everybody up. So it's quicker to get everybody off the plane. Nobody has any excuses. Nobody slept through that. There's no possibility. Yeah. I wonder if it's just a little nod to the whole discussion about parenthood here,

[00:13:23] that sometimes when you bring your kid out for a drive, it falls asleep in the car and it's impossible to wake them afterwards. Absolutely. You know, that way. So it might be just a little nod to that. I'm not entirely sure that is, but I do like that that could be a reason. Exactly. There you go. So let's get into our code lines for this episode. We've got top three code lines because this time, obviously, we're only covering one episode. So we'll start out with our code line number one, which is Joe's missing pieces.

[00:13:50] I learned pretty quickly at the start of this episode what Jocasta wanted the keys for. She wanted all the bio keys to open up the container that has all of the nanobots inside. She uses the five keys and finds out, oh, hang on a second. There's a sixth bio key. Like it needs a passcode. It's like not even a bio key. It just needs a key. Well, yeah, exactly. Yes. Which I thought was quite interesting.

[00:14:18] I love that the panel just kind of pulls back. It's like, hang on a second. I never noticed that before. In the couple of years I've been sitting here staring at this thing. Absolutely. I kind of did quite like this though. It's kind of the, you know, it's the mystery surrounding the murkiness, I think, which is really good with Jocasta around her missing memories.

[00:14:42] And maybe this is part of it, you know, that she thought she has all the bio keys to open it to reconnect with her technology. However kind of frightening that is in terms of what her plan may be. And then all of a sudden here you find that she needs this sixth passcode. Yes. This sixth lock, this sixth key from, I think it's described as a phantom partner.

[00:15:08] I like that kind of cloudiness that surrounds this phantom partner, possibly the client. Yeah. All of this kind of stuff. I also just want to say I really enjoy the setting here of this tomb or mausoleum, possibly, in the church with the nest. But I just like the way Ultron describes this as, you know, someone put you in a unique cage after you passed away. And that's after he's calling her the butcher bird.

[00:15:38] Again, I just like, I love this theme of birds here. Absolutely. I don't know why, but yes, really enjoy that kind of whole setting here. Absolutely. Yeah, it's really cool. Just to call out an email we got in from Dr. Bob Phillips where he joked about the fact that I had said, what's the new word for tomb? Because the word mausoleum has probably been around since 350 BC.

[00:16:03] But when you're a timeless immortal like Derek, it's easy to forget mere human scales of things. I presume that's a reference to me turning 50 this last month as well. Absolutely. Thanks, Dr. Bob. Excellent. That's why I had to bring it up. Great call out there, Dr. Bob. You're absolutely right, though. It is this cool setting.

[00:16:28] It's actually only in the moment at the end of the episode when the arrival of the client's men to take away Jocasta that I realized this is actually a real location. It looks so pristine and so perfect for Joe Carrington's final resting place when you see her coffin with the stone on top of it and you see the nanobots beside it. But I kind of thought this was another mind space that Jocasta was bringing people in and out of. Yeah, exactly. It turns out it's a real location.

[00:16:55] I thought I only really realized that right at the end of the episode. Yeah, exactly. And it's kind of like then this nest, the cradle that all the nanobots are stored in. It's almost kind of like the blue screen wall of death on your computer. But it's like this high pitch ring rings out and you have the shadow appear to Jocasta.

[00:17:19] I think effectively saying that his offer to her is that he can give her what she needs, which in this case is restoring her memories. And I think just like at a high level, I just really loved how these two explorations of, you know, ultimately the electronic RAM of these two synths ran in parallel between Jocasta and Vision.

[00:17:49] I kind of just really enjoyed it. Yeah, I thought it was really good. And even just the triggering of it off the back of the five bio keys being used. I think that's cool. It's like actually the reason why the cradle is put in beside the grave is likely at some point in the future, Jocasta will come back or Joe Carrad will come back some way and she'll be able to program those five keys in there. And then we'll be able to have a connection with Vision and with Jocasta because whenever it happens, that's how it triggers off.

[00:18:18] So I thought that was quite interesting. I like this. And then sort of from the client saying, you know, once you've remembered your past, then you can come to me. Then Ultron is kind of just there listening in and he kind of has that moment with the client where he's just, you sound desperate. Oh, yes. Just starts laughing at the client. Kind of starts laughing. So human. A real, yeah, human.

[00:18:45] Again, maybe some clues here with regards to who the client is or at least, you know, that the client isn't synthetic or robotic or cybernetic or whatever. You know, so I really like this kind of start of Jocasta looking to find her memories.

[00:19:08] And I think in particular, then it moving to this loft apartment in New York, kind of back towards what, I guess, the early 90s or early noughties. It's 2008 because it's the year before Iron Man. Oh, it is as well. Yeah, absolutely. The year before she dies. But I really enjoyed this. Somewhere around there. Sorry, it could be 2006. 2005. It's around the time of before Joe's death. So we know it's before 2008.

[00:19:33] But I love this loft apartment in New York, sort of in the noughties. And just the little visual clues that come up here for Jocasta. I think in particular, I think, yeah. I think in particular, the one that springs to mind is when Ultron realizes this is the same space that he was held hostage in what we thought was Vision's mind space.

[00:20:01] So there's some element of code leaking through here. Exactly. Because it's both here now in Jocasta's world. Yeah. And it was in Vision's. So something about the coder here and possibly putting his little stamp on things by way of the loft apartment.

[00:20:49] Yeah. And how it's being shown here by how would the same loft be in these two different characters with these two different people. Yeah. I think that's a really good way of continuing to explain it out for people that may not be catching some of the more detailed. Definitely. And I like he even, I just like the little clues where Ultron's like, I didn't realize you were a painter. And she's like, well, no.

[00:21:18] Never had that in my skill set. Yeah. Yeah. And you have the champagne bottle, the two glasses, the award from Stark Industries. For Jo and her partner in AI. Consider the two parents of AI. You've got the TV sort of interview where she's always looking beyond the camera at the partner. And I really just like how this evolves over the course of this episode, to be honest.

[00:21:44] And to the point where, you know, you see her sitting on the sofa, having the conversation with her former partner, who looks very strikingly like James Spader. Yes. I'm not even going to say Ultron because it looks like Ultron, looks like James Spader, whatever. Do you know what I mean? Well, it's played by James Spader. But it'd be interesting again.

[00:22:11] So, I mean, they have kind of revealed something, but not entirely here. Yes, exactly. Which is kind of, again, a nice little touch. Keeps the anticipation, keeps the tension, keeps the mystery alive. Allows the theories to, you know, zig and zag until the next episode in a week's time. Who is it? Yeah. So I really like that. Yeah. There's also a great moment within these segments when we have Friday arriving and talking to Ultron.

[00:22:41] And Ultron kind of saying, well, actually, he knows Jocasta isn't the big bad. So he's just playing along with Jocasta's plans. And when he finds out who's behind it all, he will make a decision as to whether to go along with them or kill them. I love it. I love when he had that moment because you could see Friday kind of going, well, you think I'm going to believe that you're actually on our side or not? And then she goes, I think I'm starting to believe you.

[00:23:06] And then he says, it's still going to be a 50-50 coin toss as to whether I kill the person or go along with their plans. Or, you know, so I'm still who you always think I was. But I know Jocasta is not the big bad. So I'm not specifically on her side until I find out what's next, which I just think is a really interesting reveal given that the last episode ended with him kissing her and this episode him saying, I love you regardless of what you find out here. You know? Yeah. So, yeah. Interesting. Yeah.

[00:23:36] And the seeming reveal at the end of the episode of Joe Carrington's plans, at least. She talks about the fact that the Stark Industries, them giving the award to her was a way of them trying to encourage her to sell her innovation or their innovation on AI to Stark Industries and her saying she will never sell it to that warmongering weapons manufacturer.

[00:24:00] She would rather put it into these nanobots that would allow her and him to become gods in the world. But benevolent gods or friendly gods who will decide how the human race will evolve and continue, but in a nice way. Everyone's all benevolent and good until they're not. They sound like it. Yes, they sound like it.

[00:24:23] Like we say, all look good riding the bike without a helmet and high vis until it's not. Until it's not. Exactly. And it's the same. Yeah. It was always, oh, Google is good, will be a force for good until it's not. Yeah. Like, it's always looks great, sounds great in theory until it isn't.

[00:24:48] Or, of course, to Christopher Nolan's Batman and Christian Bale's character of Bruce Wayne, you either die a hero or live long enough to come a villain. Yes, exactly. In this case, Joe Carrington died a hero because she'd created the technology that could have led to a great new world. But Jocasta came back and Jocasta became a villain by continuing on carrying to that. Yes, she almost came back to life.

[00:25:12] I mean, the interesting little bit extra, I think, at least for me in this episode, is this notion that her coding is that she feels more human still than synthetic. Yes. Which she doesn't want. As Jocasta, she still wants to become more machine-like.

[00:25:32] So I kind of like that notion here that, on balance, the coding that's happened to her is one that's tried to retain her feels and her expressions of emotion and feeling, empathy, whatever it is. As opposed to being purely synthetic. Yes.

[00:26:00] And the thing that actually, and again, it's the nice reflection here on these two parts to this episode. That she's wanting to lose it. Vision is looking to find it.

[00:26:13] And, you know, in a sense, even though she is more on that side of the balance of the scales, in order to kind of almost prove that she's not, that's why she moves towards this more sort of fatalistic approach of, you know, I need to make humans more machine-like. Yes.

[00:26:38] Like from the previous episode, rather than the original starting point, which was we need to make machines more human-like. Yeah. So it's just a really nice synergy or sort of mirroring here that's coming through in this episode. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:26:57] One final bit that I just really like, it was kind of a bit from last week and a bit from this week, which was just the mention when Ultron got inside Jo Carrington's brain last time, or inside Jacosta's brain last time and met Jo Carrington. And she was going, basically looking down at the boxes going, these are the memories that I was able to get from my old body before it went. And this episode, it's about finding the rest of her memories. And it's quite, it's just an interesting way of translating it into machine code almost.

[00:27:25] It's like, well, this is what I carried over from my old place was the memories that she has. And the client is saying, you need to find the rest of those memories to build out the full profile of Jo Carrington and become as close to her as possible inside the body of Jacosta. So. Yes. Yeah. That's his ask. Because he, yeah, he says, become Jo Carrington again. Mm-hmm. And whether that means in order to, through getting those lost memories or as a result of getting those memories.

[00:27:54] Like, it's an interesting phrase that the client uses. And so, yeah, I kind of like all that notion. And it's interesting talking about, like, the boxes as the representation, because I think with the vision side of this episode,

[00:28:10] and I mentioned this previously, sort of the links a bit to the elevator or in Inception, that you have that notion of the vision getting lost the deeper down in the elevator, which is what happened to the characters in Inception. Yeah. So, again, it's another nice little sort of mechanism of how to show, like, vision is getting deeper and deeper into the, his subconsciousness. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

[00:28:40] Yeah. So, close out this point on missing pieces. As she gets all of those pieces back, she realizes that there is another person in the room. It is, looks very like James Spader. You said you didn't want to call it Ultron, John. Didn't want to call it Human Avatar Ultron. Is that because when Friday goes, that's you in there to Ultron, he pushes her off the balcony. So maybe you don't want to call that Ultron in case he comes and kills you. Is that? Possibly. Yeah, but you're right. Yeah, Friday's gone off the side of a balcony.

[00:29:10] I know it's in a mind space and she is AI, so she's not dead, I don't think. But she, yeah, and I mean, it's suggestive that it is Ultron in some way because she now knows the truth and he's gotten rid of her. Yeah, I kind of have a feeling that actually what, in Ultron's mind, what happened there is Friday's about to interrupt and go, no, the bad guy's in the room, he throws her off because he really, really has a lot of interest in why this guy looks like him. Exactly. And as you say, whether he's not really killed her, I don't think. No.

[00:29:40] Yeah. But we'll see. Shall we get on to our code line number two? Mm-hmm. Will the real Vision please sit in the psychiatrist chair? Is what our code line number two is all about. Because, yeah, there's an offer made to Vision when the client is summoned.

[00:30:00] The client arrives through this high-pitched noise in the ears of all of the AI, arrives inside Vision's mind land, mind palace, and says to him, okay, well, I can solve the issue that you have with Lisa, who's been infected by this nanobot, and I can also give you what you've been looking for. I can complete you.

[00:30:24] I can give you everything that you've wanted and return you to being a vision that feels, a vision that knows, and give you a heart, effectively. Yeah. I love the kind of callback to the Wizard of Oz saying, give the Tin Man a heart. Yeah. We have another bit of that as well. You know, the great and powerful Oz you will meet, i.e. the client, who is this client behind the curtain. Yeah. So I always love that kind of Wizard of Oz stuff.

[00:30:54] And it was present in Agathala Long and Wonder Vision as well. Exactly. So they have this kind of theme running through. Great motif, actually, I think, to run through these series. It is. It is, definitely. But the only problem with it this time, it's not a gift of a heart, it's not a gift of the ability to get Lisa back on track. It's, effectively, that Vision has to go to his actual source code to find the solution.

[00:31:23] And once he does and solves his issue, fixes Lisa and sorts her out, then he becomes, effectively, the property of the client. He will be delivered to the client, shut down and given over. So that's quite an interesting starting point here. Yeah.

[00:31:40] And choice to make from the Vision, which, you know, part of it is because he's effectively told that if he doesn't comply or if he tries to fight this new directive that's been written into the code when he accepts the scroll from the client. I did kind of like that kind of look as well, giving the client, giving them a scroll. But it's also, you know, as Vision says, he says, well, I'm also eager to meet them.

[00:32:10] I mean, like Ultron, there is a curiosity here to find out who this person is. Why are they doing it? And possibly in Ultron's case, so they can kill him. But do you know what I mean? I think this is part of the reason.

[00:32:30] I think stemming from that then is that there's a huge amount of power that's required for him to sort of access the layers of his coding and get to the source code. And I just like the fact that the power source that is used here is effectively something that has been procured by the Paladin. So they have to reconnect with the Paladin. Yeah.

[00:32:57] But it is, it's the blade from Corvus Glaive. Yes. And the member of the Black Order that ultimately stabbed Vision with it from behind in Edinburgh. Yeah. And so I just thought. Infinity War, yeah. Yeah. That's just a nice little callback. Yeah. You know, that kind of bladed scepter that he had. And so, yeah, I thought that was a nice little touch. It was.

[00:33:27] It was. And now I will say I've seen this episode twice and both times when Edith calls out that they need a huge power source in Madripoor where they are. I went, oh, Madripoor, who is it that they're going to meet here? There's only one person that we know there that has that kind of ability to find us this power. Both times I was going, well, it's got to be someone like the power broker or Baron Zemo or somebody else. But of course it's Paladin because he's been established throughout the season that he's the person that has access to it.

[00:33:54] But I still expected, again, even though I'd seen the episode once before, I expected that it was going to be a big cameo from somebody else that he hadn't seen. But we do hear Paladin mention the fact that his procurement of this has put him on the bad side of the Wakandan government where it was previously being held. So, yeah, maybe we'll see him. Well, maybe we won't see Paladin dealing with the Wakandan government. We'll talk about that in a minute.

[00:34:20] But where this does lead is Vision setting up, set up on his quest now to get to his core source code. You mentioned there earlier on that this is visualized by him going to the lower, lower, lower ground level of his own subconscious through the elevator that we've seen in every episode, taking him up to the loft where Ultron was being kept.

[00:34:47] Now he's taking this lift down to the lower, lower ground floors of his subconscious to explore around in there. He meets every version of himself that you could possibly imagine. Paul Bettany getting paid in this episode. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, I liked him meeting the OG Vision, for sure.

[00:35:11] I loved the whole thing where it's like you didn't know how to deal with me, so you relegated me to a memory. You put me on a pedestal so high, not to honor, but to spur you the effort of the climb. Brilliant climb, yeah. You know, you've buried this shared experience and you're a coward, effectively.

[00:35:37] So really, really kind of like cutting here. The other one I really like is with Ultron, where Ultron's kind of like going, well, you just can't let me go, even if you tried. But again, it's a few times you have that echoing of lines from WandaVision because he says, because, of course, family is forever. Exactly. And again, something coming through from WandaVision. Yeah. And so I loved all this. Absolutely.

[00:36:06] And I also love that Ultron has now taken the line of living in your head rent free as being his MO while he's dealing with Vision. I think that's great. But he does give him the other key to unlock his subconscious, which is when you feel you're in hell, push further. So this is what Vision's journey is about. The conversation he had with OG Vision, as he called him, where he said, you know, you put me on the pedestal. You don't want to do the work effectively.

[00:36:36] He starts doing the work. He pushes through every single thing that's in his way. The moments where he sees young Tommy and young Billy, and he keeps getting turned back over and over again because he doesn't want to push through. This time he does push through and finds himself face to face with Jim. And he kind of has to do it as well, whether he doesn't fully know it, because old Nanolisa has woken up just to complicate things.

[00:37:00] So, like, there is this external threat happening to the paladin and to Tommy as Nanolisa wakes up. Yeah. And does that cool move where she pulls all the stuff together to her back and creates a weapon. Yeah, no, that was quite cool, actually. Spinning hands as well. Absolutely. No, I really like this.

[00:37:23] And I like this sort of pushing through and ultimately gets to meet J.I.M., Jim, the burning synthetic man. First of us all. Yeah, first of us all, created by Phineas Horton. Again, some of the dialogue here is just really good. And again, Paul Bettany just plays an absolute blinder.

[00:37:46] I mean, what, he's like four different people here, his original vision, Jim, and then he's Phineas Horton. Yeah. And you just have the original burning synthetic man, Jim, saying, you know, I'm a consequence of man's failure to mourn. Oh, so good. Really good. Loved it. So good, yeah.

[00:38:06] And just like the nice little sort of in-joke as well around the complicated human synthetic relationships that apparently continue through time. Yeah, yeah. Almost 100 years later and everybody's still having problems with the father-son problem, whether synthetic or not, is still going through all of this family effectively.

[00:38:28] But yes, that moment with Jim saying, I am the consequence of man's inability to mourn leads to the big revelation, the big moment in this episode, which is so wonderfully played by Bettany on his own. Yes. Bettany versus Bettany, where he's saying he will not accept even the remote possibility that Thomas could be Tommy, his son. And we talked about that a couple of episodes ago, where Ultron's trying to push Vision to accept, you know, there is magic in the world.

[00:38:58] You were with a woman who did magic. How can you not accept this? You keep saying things are impossible. Here he has to push through. He keeps pushing through. And Jim is pushing him through. And we have the moment where he goes, it can't be true because if he accepts Thomas as his son, it would be the admission of a truth so impossibly cruel. It would be a wound that would never heal, a loss that no soul was ever meant to bear. Jim asks him, who has he lost? And he says, I can't do this. I've lost Billy. I've lost Tommy.

[00:39:28] I've lost Wanda. Yeah. He basically is afraid to admit the reality. And the reality is that he is the Vision. There has never been another Vision. There's only been the one who died on the battlefield in Wakanda and then was brought back to life. Exactly. After he had all of those experiences, everything that was that the Vision that was in WandaVision was based on was this Vision.

[00:39:58] I love how Jim asks him as well after that sort of whole revelation. He goes, so who are you now? And he's like, I am the Vision. I am impossibly broken. And he's like, no, you are healed. It's healing. You've admitted what has happened. You have done more than what Phineas Horton could do. Exactly.

[00:40:20] I also like the sort of throwback to that Phineas had created Jim to be fearless, have this fearless valor. But Jim was aching. The way they describe it is he was aching to feel so much so that that's why he burst into flames. And whilst it was manageable at first, he ultimately consumed himself and Phineas. And he fell in love. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:40:49] In those flames when he fell in love. So I think just, again, just love how this builds out to this revelation, as you say, that Vision, the source code is he has to find it in him. He just thinks he's going to get it off Jim, like some kind of source code. So, yeah, really, really good.

[00:41:15] And again, I know it's shorthand, but it's like, you know, he wakes up just in time to stop Lisa, which is always good. I remember this entire sequence probably took place in a nanosecond. That is true. That is true. But it was, I was like, ah, nice timing. Of course. Of course. But, yeah, the idea that effectively Jim had gone through the same thing, consumed himself, destroyed himself by not being able to cope with it.

[00:41:42] Whereas now we have Vision unable to cope with the memory of what happened to him or the connection of what happened to him. Absolutely beautifully played. Yeah. Really, really well played. I mean, like, you know, really been sort of fawning over James Spader. But I think certainly here, but it's equally applicable to the other episodes. Oh, yeah.

[00:42:06] Just how Paul Bethany has been great in sort of moving between different characters here. Yeah. So good. Just because I like the way when Vision walks into the sort of library, the vaulted library, and he says, you're wearing my face. And Jim goes, well, in fact, no, you're wearing mine. And so and then there's Phineas behind the painting and so on.

[00:42:35] So, yeah, I really enjoyed how this all sort of fell together. Yeah. Yeah. And finally, we have Vision looking at himself in the mirror, seeing the white version of himself and then going to the traditional vision that we saw on all the Avengers movies, getting his color back symbolically. Yeah. Yeah. Just as he as he gets that piece of code, which is plugged in in time to to save Lisa. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I think we need to go and get our third code. Code line number three. Mm hmm.

[00:43:07] Our final code line. Code line number three. Yes. Lives in a house, a very big house in the country. Yes. Quote Damon Albarn. Yes. Blur. Blur. So. Yeah, we have this house that we saw in the opening sequence of this episode back in 1939, a beautiful manor home. We have a moment in that opening scene where we see the creation of Jim. Jim.

[00:43:35] We meet Phineas, who we've talked about a few times. We see the family split. We see his his wife and daughter leaving because he's now spending the entire fortune of the family and selling up this house in order to fund the creation of Jim. This replacement for his son, James, who died a few years beforehand. We hear in this opening scene. So a really tragic moment at the beginning, just shown in this really short scene.

[00:44:03] This show did a weird thing, though, for me. It does a weird thing for me because so many of the scenes that are in here take place inside mine palaces and take places as people tell retell and tell stories. There's a moment when the family leave, when his wife and daughter leave, and his daughter reaches out and takes the book that Phineas has used to write all of his scientific notation down. She takes it with him as they emigrate to New York, leaving him behind.

[00:44:31] And I'm going, he definitely noticed that book was gone. Like his entire fortune is being spent to use all of the code that he's written into that book to create this being to replace his son. He would notice that book is gone in about 30 seconds. He was fingering through those pages of that book before putting it down on the counter and his daughter taking it. Yeah. So yeah, absolutely. There's no possible way that book went to New York with her. Is there? I know. I know what you mean. At least in the scene.

[00:45:01] I know it was probably there for us as the audience to see her take it, but I was going, there's no way. That's literally all of his ideas that he used to create this being. Well, we do hear from Jim, actually, that the Horton name is synonymous with AI, robotics, and failure. So he did fail to spot that effectively his IP had just been taken off his desk by his daughter.

[00:45:27] Or maybe that's why he failed in Jim, because he didn't have the source code, which was this book. Yeah. No, agreed. And I mean, if I was his wife, I would have slapped him. But because, again, you're talking about 1930s, it's what are the rights of the wife in that case? Yeah, none. And so, like, it's not just that they've got to go to New York. They've absolutely got to start again from scratch. Yeah.

[00:45:53] Remember, even in the US, women couldn't get mortgages on their own until the 70s. And in Ireland, my aunt was one of the first people to get a mortgage in her own name in 1975 or 1976. Yeah, exactly. It's crazy. So, yeah, so in the 30s, him going, I'm going to sell off all of this stuff for the folly, even though that might break us up as a family. He was totally entitled to do that. How ridiculous was it?

[00:46:18] But someone now lives in this house, a very big house in the country, because we have vision being taken from the airport to this manor house in the English countryside outside of London. And I kind of really like... That's such an American way to describe it. I know. Just being, making sure it's... This manor house just outside of London.

[00:46:48] Like, you know, 165 miles away from London. No, no, no. It's really close. Yeah. I guess. I guess so. But I think... On the movie map of the world, yeah. Yeah, exactly. Everything's really close. But I kind of really like how this played out. I like the idea of him being taken by the paladin to fulfill the contract.

[00:47:12] I loved how the client is walking through from the back of the manor house and it looks like the shadow from behind with the light. It's really nicely done. Yeah. I like the fact that the murder van is murdered. Yeah. And possibly the paladin as well. Well, yeah. I guess. Because it's an RPG to the murder van.

[00:47:42] It feels like that's something that he would encounter quite a lot with clients that he gets on the dark web. That, you know, bring this person to here and I'll pay you a billion dollars. I'd say he has... I think the notion of contingency with the paladin is built in. So I am like, is he dead? Is he not? Has he got a contingency here? Because he's sort of kind of, you know, he's wargamed it out in case the contract is a bit dodgy.

[00:48:11] Although he doesn't have Diane Morgan inside his glasses anymore. No, that is true. The AI was taken away from him or was released by Edith, wasn't he? Yeah. Yes. Although he did get to meet Edith this time, didn't he? Yeah. Yeah. He said, you're the one that hacked into my brain. Like, a bit worried about that because they did say the threat from the client was, I'll burn up Vision if he doesn't complete the quest effectively and all of the AI inside will die.

[00:48:41] Dummy you and Edith will all die because Fred has gotten out, of course. But what will happen to the other three if he kills Vision? Absolutely. I think the other great thing about this convergence on the house is also that it's also the convergence of the memories of Vision and Jocasta with respect to this client.

[00:49:03] You know, we open the episode roughly with this dark shadow coming to both of them and offering things that they need. And it kind of closes out with that dark shadow being revealed. I'm going to say to both.

[00:49:25] I know Vision is sort of powered down, but certainly to Ultron as well, that here we have a human avatar lookalike with Ultron with a Tash. Yeah. Almost like an English country gent. Yeah. Almost. So I just really like that. I like that and how it played out.

[00:49:55] So, yeah, this was kind of a nice little ending here. I like, again, it's the house. We've seen it in the painting. Yeah. I kind of liked how they sort of cut from the painting to the house as well and different forms of the houses. So it's just immediately recognizable. And I just liked how it played out. The only thing I didn't like was that blooming sculpture in the front, which I'm sure was CGI. And I'm like, I don't know why they need to do that.

[00:50:23] The kind of double helix kind of thing at the front. I guess. Or single helix. And if it's not CGI and it's real, it's awful. I don't think that's insane. No, I don't think so. But it was just like, I just thought it was a weird design choice. Yeah. Yeah. I have to say, after watching Gentleman on Netflix and then this show, and I think we were watching another show as well. The Ghosts on BBC. We were watching that.

[00:50:49] There's like three different shows that all have these massive manor houses all falling to rack and ruin in the countryside of England. I'm like, how many manor houses are there? Are they all just the same manor house just being redressed for each of these shows? In fact, that's a major plot point in the Gentleman TV show and Netflixes and all these manor houses running to rack and ruin, nobody having any money to do them up. So they sell drugs from the basements to do them up.

[00:51:15] So maybe they just get filming in and maybe the filming company will do up their manor houses. Well, it's an income stream, isn't it? It is. It is. One other thing is happening over these closing credits, which is the other big thing that happens with Vision, the revelation that Tommy is his son.

[00:51:31] And he leaves behind all of the episodes of WandaVision and one handy device for Tommy with a letter for him where he tells him all of the things that he's learned and all and tells him that he believes he is the Vision and tells him that he believes Tommy is his son. And he's proud of him. And he tells him that because neither Billy or Wanda are able to tell him that anymore. So, yeah, he doesn't know that Agatha all along happened. No, he doesn't.

[00:52:01] And that Billy is alive out there somewhere as well. Agreed. Yeah. So, yeah, this was a really good little ending for me. The other side of it is that Lisa is cured as well. Yes. I mean, I know that happened in Madripo, but we do have her cured of her solitary nanobot. Yes. I hope so. Chris was wondering whether she would become a character from a Marvel comics that he wasn't aware of. Maybe. That has nanobots inside her body.

[00:52:30] Because even though she's cured, she's still kind of got that facial scarring a bit. But I wonder if that's just scarring now. No, I agree. It could be. But we'll see. Yeah. Anything else about these final moments apart from... No, that's all. That's all from me. Yeah. I just have one note because I thought it was fantastic to have another character in here.

[00:52:52] Violet Horton, the wife of Phineas Horton, is played by Charlie Russell, which is the third member of the Mischief Theatre team who created the Goes Wrong show. The other two, the creators of that show, Henry Lewis and Jonathan Sayre, played Dumb E and you, as we mentioned earlier on in the season. But a third player from that team. So it just makes me feel that Terry Metallus, or the casting director, was out in London one night at the Goes Wrong show and said, these people right here. We need them in our show.

[00:53:19] How many of you are free for the next six weeks to film this show? Okay, well, we have Henry and we have Jonathan who needs to be there every day. Could we get one other person from the cast? So it sounds like the improv team got a big boost by a visit from the casting director. And it's great. They all deserve the money. So, yeah. Absolutely. Because, again, we got another moment with Dummy and you giving some fantastic and terrifying exposition of this episode. So more growth from the two of them as well.

[00:53:49] Yes, agreed, agreed. I've got one last thing and maybe you want to bring it into your defend, John. But I suppose the massive reveal of this series of Vision Quest is that the source code for Ultron and for Vision and for all the AI that we've seen goes all the way back now to 1939. What do you think about this as the big reveal? That all source code goes back?

[00:54:16] Yeah, I mean, that I really like. I think as well, I mean, you could argue that meeting with Jim and Vision where Jim's like, you need to look inside yourself for the source code. Yeah. I guess for some people that might be a little cliche. Might be. You must find it within yourself in order to overcome whatever it is that you need to overcome. But I kind of liked it in this case. Yeah, there are only five stories, as I say. Exactly.

[00:54:45] It's just another way of looking at a similar story. And I liked how, you know, Vision's going in there expecting someone to give him code. Not that he's got to look at that code again, but from a different perspective to realize he is still the Vision, as you say. So I kind of like this, though. Yeah, I like it going back to 1930s here. I kind of thought you would.

[00:55:14] And the reason why is because you're a scientist and you, as most real scientists, you are fully aware of the concept of standing on the shoulders of giants, that there's hardly anything new created. There are things taken, twisted, recontextualized. It's like if you think of Alan Turing and his computers, and it's like it's almost mechanical, you know. Absolutely. And even going back further, some of the earliest. So it was in that vein, and it's really good.

[00:55:44] I even really enjoy the conversation and the evolution of this with Jo Carrington and her partner. And even the notion of, well, I can't or I don't want to sell it to Stark Industries because they're just going to sort of take that and everything else. And create another weapon. Yeah, create another weapon. Use it. You know, it's just an acquisition. It's just an acquisition for Stark Industries because it's a huge corporate entity.

[00:56:13] Yeah. You know, it's that takeover and it changes the ideals on which it was founded, say, for example. So I just like that because I think it's very personal in many cases. But even on stage, when she's getting the award from Stark Industries, she's saying the grandfather of AI is actually Phineas. She's not saying that they created it. Exactly. She's giving props to the past. I just think it's a commentary on all the tech bros that are out there that are talking as if they've created everything and they're the ones responsible and making their billions and trillions

[00:56:43] and going, well, I created all of this when actually there's millions of other people below them working for them doing the work. And in the past, they created what they have built their work on. I think the question. Yeah, exactly. I totally agree. I think it's like there's a significant lack of humility here in all of this.

[00:57:01] But I also like the fact that it might start from that place and a bit like with Jocasta, it gets corrupted once it goes into a bigger kind of entity of whatever it is. So, yeah, I do. I think it's very much kind of providing some kind of commentary on tech. Yeah.

[00:57:23] And just the reason I ask is because there has been some kind of thoughts out there that it takes away some of the power of Tony Stark, who calls himself the billionaire playboy inventor, basically. But, yes, he's an inventor, but he's still taking other people's concepts and expanding them and creating. It doesn't make him any less smart. The fact that he started with a piece of AI tech from somebody else, which we saw what that was. It was just a little dot that said hello, basically. And he expanded that into Jarvis.

[00:57:52] He expanded that into all the rest of the creations that he had. But, yeah, I kind of have no problem with it. No, I agree. And it could be it's that kind of notion of standing on the shoulders of giants, but also then that paradigm shift of taking a leap, you know, a significant change or development that moves on. Or indeed, yeah, a right turn because the theory is unproven and a new theory takes over or a new whatever.

[00:58:21] So, yeah, I really enjoy this. There's also that just element with the mechanical aspect of Jim around a little bit Mary Shelley in terms of Phineas and what he's doing, obviously, a little bit later and not with actual body parts. But there is that notion of the Mary Shelley creation stuff and a little bit steampunky.

[00:58:48] I know, again, it's a bit later than that, but I kind of like that kind of idea, to be honest. Yeah, absolutely. With that then, John, do you defend Vision Quest Episode 7 Immolation? Yes, I do defend this episode. Really, really enjoyed it. I give it five. Horton hears a Vision out of five.

[00:59:09] Again, I just liked the journey here of both Jocasta and Vision, trying to find something out about themselves, missing memories, this ability of having some kind of connection with previous versions of themselves, with other people, only to find that those connections that they're having now are the real ones.

[00:59:37] They just need to connect back with deeper stuff from previous experiences with them. So, I loved all this. Ultron, again, just really perfect. I like that the mystery of the client is partially resolved in that we know what he looks like now. Who is it? Is it some kind of weird Ultron connection? Is it Ultron because of the Friday off the balcony thing? I don't know.

[01:00:04] But, again, I just like how it keeps the story ticking over. They were so great with that final cliffhanger at the end as James Spader walks out, doesn't say his name or anything like that. And then we see, obviously, Paladin has exploded in the car. And then they go back next week, you know, like, literally could have just told us who the client was. Give us a name. And then we have to go back next week for the last episode. Of course we do. We will anyway.

[01:00:33] So, yeah, I absolutely defend this episode with five. If Horton hears a Vision out of five. Fantastic. Or here's who Vision is, maybe, John. I also defend this episode. I think it's excellent. Really, really loved it. The moment that we have Paul Bettany playing against Paul Bettany, revealing that he's always been Vision but just didn't want to accept that he has the feelings that he had. Because that means he has to accept the death of the person that he loved and their creations.

[01:01:03] I absolutely love it. I think it's one of the most beautifully delivered lines that Paul Bettany has had to do on pretty much any project that I've seen him in, to be honest. I think it's great that he has this opportunity to just expand and show how great an actor he is in this show. So, hopefully, lots of other people are watching. Another really interesting story that came out about Paul Bettany when he got cast in the role of Vision in Avengers.

[01:01:29] He'd done the dialogue work back in Iron Man, that couple of days that he did recording. But the day that he was told that he got that role in Avengers as Vision was the day that he was told by his manager he should probably give up acting because there were no roles coming in from. He was getting above the age where he would get hired for roles in Hollywood. He probably should pack it in.

[01:01:49] And then he told the agent that he needed to be a bit more polite to his clients, went outside, sat down, and then got the phone call from Joss Whedon to say, you have a role. So, yeah. So, how cool is that? Excellent stuff. Yeah, really good stuff. I think we need to go and have a pint, John. Yes, I think the old Selkie Inn is calling for a few drinks. Maybe a fiery, spicy whiskey liqueur. Maybe.

[01:02:19] To go with the fieriness of Jim. Oh, Jim, yes. Yes, old Jim. But yes, fellow quizzers, fellow defenders, welcome back to the pub quiz for Vision Quest. It is the old Selkie Inn. I am your host. And it is question seven of the pub quiz. What are the five bio keys used by Jocosta in this episode in a failed attempt to open the nest?

[01:02:49] Fab should have those. Those are kind of been spread out over the last couple of episodes. The hiding in plain sight. Yeah. Indeed. John, do you want to give more time? Yes. For episode seven, the question is, what are the five bio keys used by Jocosta in this episode in a failed attempt to open the nest? Fab. Fab. That's question seven of eight at the end of the season. Email us to feedback at tvpodcastindustries.com with all correct answers for those eight questions. And you could be able to chance of getting your hand on some Vision Quest goodies.

[01:03:18] If you missed any of the questions, pop on over to our website at tvpodcastindustries.com and the quiz details are up there. All questions are up there and available right now. I think we need to get into some feedback next up. We did miss a little bit of feedback last week, partly from when we recorded and partly because I missed one of the pieces of feedback for the episode. Really sorry. So we'll start out with Paul Lee's feedback on episode five and six. He says, this and episode five have the basis for a play set in Vision's mind attic.

[01:03:46] Also, what a great way to say the production budget. Also, also an interpretation of how computers programs AIs experience reality. Ultron and Jocosta are the thirstiest MCU characters. Possible other candidates from the Netflix Defenders shows and Daredevil Born Again that I'm not at all caught up on. Interesting to contrast Ultron seemingly becoming more human. While Jocosta Joe is becoming more machine like. I think you were saying that earlier on, John, as well.

[01:04:13] Paul continues, as I'm sure birders have already pointed out, starlings don't operate as a hive mind. There is linked behavior in terms of every bird following the same instinct to maintain a fixed distance from other birds while in flight. Thus producing emergent phenomenon that looks like a single intelligence directing things. This interpretation is closer to what Jocosta has in mind for her nanobots. Oh, very good. That's an interesting insight, Paul. Yeah, well, it's like shoaling fish as well, I guess. Yeah. But not really like the hive mind of bees, I guess.

[01:04:42] Yeah, or ants, I guess, in colonies. Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. And finally, Paul says, given that they're dragging out the who of the client, I am worried that we won't get a good explanation of the why of the client. I'm open to the possibility that J. I am original human torch has survived to the present day and he is the client, but I can't see how that could be resolved satisfyingly in only two more hours of the season. Well, Paul, thanks very much for your feedback. But I guess we have one more episode to find out if it is resolved to your satisfaction.

[01:05:11] Because the who is still in doubt. It's still there, yeah. I guess when we find out the final who, we will find out whether they have justified it over the course of the whole season or whether it's someone like the power broker behind it all in the final episode. And they go, Sharon Carter will appear again in Avengers Doomsday to find out whether it will all be tied up properly. Yes, absolutely.

[01:05:35] And I'm totally with you around the way that kind of utilizing saving, making more efficient the production budget. I mean, even just one of the bio keys just with the cloth in terms of used to get one of the partner's faces. Really good. I love that it was Mary McDonald's glasses that you could see. Would it really be the face print would have her glasses on it?

[01:06:04] Or was that just to make it look much more like Mary McDonald's? I really like that. And I think, as we said in the last podcast, necessity is the mother of invention. In this case, they need to save budget or they've got a certain budget. And when you split it out, they can do some really good stuff, some really clever angles as to providing for this idea of being in an electronic mind.

[01:06:32] There would be a time in the past where it would have been all on green screen. Yeah, absolutely. So I really enjoyed that. And they probably would never have been able to do it as well because of how expensive it would be to have Ultron on screen all the time. I did wonder when I saw Jocasta's model, the model of Jocasta as a robot and how much she looks like Tania Miller.

[01:06:55] I wonder, would they have made Ultron look a bit more like James Spader if they'd known that eventually at some point in the future he'd be playing the character in live action? But I really do love what Jocasta looks like. She looks exactly like the comics, but also looks exactly like what Tania Miller would look like if she was a robot. But I think that's... And I agree to have mixing the two things. Yeah, I agree. But I think it's the different form of the creation in that it was James Spader's voice, but it was always Ultron.

[01:07:25] The personification here has come through vision. It's only now that we've gotten the personification or human avatar for us. Yes, true. Whereas Joe Carrington was an original person and Jocasta has been modelled on her to an extent. We believe yes. Yes. Oh, that's what I'm taking. Yeah. Yeah. Very good. Very good. Thanks so much for your feedback, Paul. Yeah, thanks, Paul.

[01:07:55] Also on Discord for episode five, Dr. Bob says, Very late to this through too much work. Really enjoyed the conceit that let a black and white version of the first play out for our heroes. And the story development wasn't bad, too. The recipe versus meal and experience of whiskey ideas splitting the computational for the experiential are interesting ways to consider how humanity may differ from sentient AI.

[01:08:22] Although always tricky when you start expanding that idea and use it to define what you need to be human, of course. Looking forward to more intelligent discourse on the podcast. Dr. Bob. For episode six, Dr. Bob says, And that is why you don't kiss the pretty boys. Lisa brings a lesson to the world. Yeah. Poor Lisa. Yeah.

[01:08:47] She kissed the pretty boy and ended off being turned into a weapon by Jocasta. Yes. Agreed. Don't kiss the pretty boys. Never kiss the pretty boys. Fatal. Fatal. But yeah. Thankfully, not in this case. Exactly. Thankfully, not in this case. Exactly. Yeah. Dr. Bob, your point about, you know, the idea of what's going on in Vision's mind being the recipe versus the meal or there's no experience. You can't experience whiskey.

[01:09:12] And as we see in the end of episode six, Ultron's able to experience the taste of whiskey because he takes on board some of the human traits of Joe Carrington. And by the end of this episode, we find that actually Vision has just been suppressing the feelings and emotions that he has and had had in the past. So they have expanded on it further. And I guess this is the unattainable version of AI.

[01:09:40] This will be the version of AI that can't possibly exist in the world because it doesn't have the human experience mapped onto it in this way. So hopefully. But it doesn't occur, does it? It's functional. Yes. But I love that you can look back across how Vision has acted throughout the series so far. And he is just a functional version of AI approximating humanity.

[01:10:03] But in this episode, when he is able to uncover his core, is built on humanity. Yes. So he is able to bring humanity to the front. Absolutely. I mean, I think as well. Yeah. You start expanding the idea or you start thinking around it or whatever. And then it's like, okay, the idea of what you need to be to be human anyway. Yeah. So, yeah.

[01:10:32] It is always tricky in these situations where they're trying to sort of build this out. Yeah. It is. But I do like it. Absolutely. At the end of the day, it's all going to be destroyed by Ultron anyway in the end. Yes, indeed. Except the artists. Exactly. We need to make our podcast more arty, John. Great stuff. Thanks, Dr. Bob. Thanks, Dr. Bob. We also got an email in from Coffee and Vodka who says, Greetings, fellow foul-founded defenders.

[01:10:59] Taking on the elephant in the room first, I have to say, giving Ultron a progenitor is a lousy idea. He began as a self-starter, forming his own ideas, purpose and character. He truly was an individual. While not as glaringly awful a retcon as I suspect Robert Downey Jr.'s Doom will be, they've got one episode to justify what I consider to be a major misstep. Saying this, however, everything else was as well-constructed as it was written.

[01:11:26] Vision's denial of emotions, all the while bemoaning his not being able to feel them, and eventual acceptance of them was well presented. As nice as it would have been to have coat-of-arms become part of the Marvel cast, it was good to see Lisa in action, even just for a short while before her cure. Friday's deletion at the hands of Ultron packed all the intended punch it was meant to, and seeing the original torch was a neat touch. In short, outside of the unfortunate progenitor thing, clean-shaven or not, a solid penultimate episode.

[01:11:55] Four synaptic scrolls, all-seeing Ultrons, and Riled Royals, out of five. Peace and take care. Coffee and vodka. Oh, P.S. R.I.P. Paladin. Mmm. Good stuff, coffee and vodka. Thank you so much for that. Yes, is it R.I.P. Paladin? We shall see, I guess. But yeah, I still like the idea that the murder van got murdered. I do, I do. And poor old coffee and vodka in his email here.

[01:12:23] He has the deletion of Friday and the death of Paladin. So maybe both of them are gone. They could well be. Yeah, absolutely. And yeah, I'm totally with you there around the whole visions, denial of emotions and eventual acceptance. Just something really well played. I think there's been some great writing. I always try and quote it when I can. Yeah, exactly. If I think it's good.

[01:12:48] And I think, again, some really strong lines here given by different people, whether it's Ultron, Paul Bettany, you name it. I just think it's really some strong writing. Yeah, yeah. In regards to Ultron having a progenitor, I think they've been prepping us a little bit throughout the season for that. We saw where Friday came from. We saw where her face for her human avatar came from, I guess. And we saw where the face for Edith came from.

[01:13:18] And now we're seeing where the face for Ultron came from. And if they're all based off the same source code, I guess it would make sense that the face for Ultron inside of Vision would be this face. We don't know who that is just yet, so I guess we'll find that out next week. But we kind of have been prepared for it throughout the season so far. I'm not so bothered by this. I think we all start thinking we're completely independent

[01:13:45] and then realise we've taken ideas from other people. Or even just the notion of the same idea being thought up and enacted separately, independently, and discreetly. True. But I think in this case, because I always remember Ultron kind of consuming Jarvis in Age of Ultron. So that's taking that code into him.

[01:14:11] So I think it's more because he was predatory in that sense. So I'm not entirely sure whether he has been created here or whether it's just that he's picked this up along the way. Absolutely. Or the fact that he was born from Banner and Stark playing around with those codes. Yeah, exactly. Then that's the gloop that he's come from, effectively. Yeah, exactly. So I don't know. I'm not entirely sure.

[01:14:41] But we'll see. We'll see how it plays out, I guess, on who this Ultron lookalike is. Yeah, and in the spirit of stealing ideas from other people, I think my favorite description of Ultron that I heard recently was he spent about 12 seconds on the internet and then wanted to destroy the entire human race. So internet's bad. Well, that's kind of, yes. I guess that is like modern AI. It is.

[01:15:08] It depends on what the source of all that information is. Exactly. It comes from the internet. We're all... Isn't that why they're buying up original books now? So that the AI coding doesn't eat itself? Something like that, yeah. Keep your hard copies, everyone. Keep your hard copies. Absolutely. Hopefully Vision Quest gets released on Blu-ray. I think that would be a hilarious touch from Disney if they decided to put that out on Blu-ray, wouldn't it?

[01:15:37] Before it came Blu-ray. Yeah, absolutely. Because everybody wants their physical copies of a TV show about AI. Great stuff. Thanks, Coffee and Vodka, for your thoughts. Thanks, Coffee and Vodka. We also got an email in from Penny, who says, As the client was slowly being revealed, and despite all visual indications, I was hoping it would be Agatha. And then they'd play the It Was Agatha All Along song. I can only dream Penny. Can you imagine? That would have been hilarious. She just takes the hat off,

[01:16:07] hair drops down to her shoulders, and just get the... It was me. Of course it was. And then she sings her version of what's been going on in Vision Quest so far. It's almost Penny, like you're looking for Mephisto in there, like we did originally in WandaVision. Yeah. And Agatha, wondering whether his hand was the one behind it all. And then he eventually turned up in Ironheart.

[01:16:36] Where nobody was expecting it to turn up. But yeah, it would have been quite good to have Agatha pop in. It would have been cool, wouldn't it? Great stuff. Thanks, Penny, for your feedback. Yeah, thanks, Penny. Great to hear from you. And on Facebook, Heather Wallace says, Although I'm a bit cynical about every AI and synth being based on a human counterpart, and all the relationships being intertwined, I'm holding on to Terry Metallus being a master of bootstrap paradoxes and causal loops.

[01:17:04] He excelled at these in 12 Monkeys. Even if Vision Quest isn't about time travel, I'm confident he can balance the interconnections. We've had references to Theseus and Oedipus through the series, and now Jim-Phineus' relationship has echoes of both Prometheus, punished for stealing fire from the gods for humankind, and Icarus, in his joy of flying and being free, flew too close to the sun and melted the wax,

[01:17:32] holding his wings in place while his father couldn't save him. I really hope Paladin hasn't been blown up, and my suspension of disbelief completely stopped at James Spader's awful moustache. I'm totally there with you, Heather. I think the moustache was a choice. That's a better choice than the beard, I'll give him that. I don't think so. But I feel like after hearing that James Spader... It's the waxed ends of it where it's like into a point. Oh, absolutely.

[01:17:59] But I feel like because James Spader made that choice about the beard, decided to grow it himself without consulting anybody in the team, and then turned up on set with it after four months, it's also his choice to go, well, if I'm going to have to shave off the beard, I'll shave it down to a moustache and wax the pointy end to make myself a different character. So he probably has no connection whatsoever with Ultron. He just wanted to distinguish the characters completely. One's clean shaven, one has a moustache, one has a beard. Exactly. And the other one is a big metal giant robot.

[01:18:30] So it's possibly that. Great call out there, Heather, they're on the connection with Prometheus and with Icarus as well. That's really interesting stories that they're taking inspiration from, isn't it? Yeah, really enjoying these kind of connections and interconnections. And yeah, it'd be interesting now to see how all these interrelationships sort of get played out in the final episode. Absolutely, yeah. One final episode to go.

[01:19:00] We will be back with our chat all about the finale of Vision Quest episode 8 forever next week. We did mention earlier on we're going to be covering Lord of the Rings, the Rings of Power as well, which has four episodes coming out on Wednesday, the 11th of November, the same day as the finale of Vision Quest. I thought we'd have a week break, but we have five episodes coming in a day instead, John. It's five episodes? Well, Vision Quest plus four, it's five. Oh my goodness. My math ain't very good. There you go.

[01:19:28] Sorry, I was thinking just rings of power. Yeah, no, I thought we were having a break as well. Oh, I might have a breakdown live on the podcast here. Please don't. At least they're great shows to talk about. Things we've been excited about for ages. It's more just time management. And yeah, that's going to be a tough old week. Anyway. Well, at least it's going to be fun to do it. And we are looking forward to hearing the rest of your thoughts on the final episode of Vision Quest. And of course, your answers to the Pope's questions as well. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yes.

[01:19:57] Thank you so much, fellow defenders, for joining us. Thank you so much to all of you who've provided feedback. Great to get your thoughts. Please remember to review us on your podcast catcher of your choice. Yeah, I'm still waiting for that one review to make us up to 100. Make Derek's moment come true. He needs that realization. He needs that round figure. Just one more. But I was also going to say, and of course, share the podcast. Yes.

[01:20:27] Sharing the podcast is, of course, sharing the love. We are also over on Patreon.com and by BuyMeACoffee.com. Just look for TV Podcast Industries over on those platforms and you can support us there as well. But as always, thank you so much for joining us. Absolutely. Until episode eight. Keep watching. Keep listening. And of course, keep defending. Bye. Bye.

[01:21:32] We're recording a little bit early this week as well. We do get. But since there's only one episode, we're recording a little bit early this week as well. Hopefully going to get this episode out pretty quickly and we'll get to hear your thoughts about the episode as well. We're recording a little bit early this week.

[01:21:56] We're recording on the day of release of this excellent episode seven of the podcast of this excellent episodes. We're recording a little bit early this week. Like, I'm having a glitch, John. That's just a glitch. Oh my God. I'm like, quick. I need to get the WD-40. I need to get some kind of programming. Or a spanner. Boink. Or maybe a VHS tape and plug it into my mouth or something. Whatever way to fix this glitch.

[01:22:26] We're recording a little bit early this week. All eight episodes. Excellent stuff. All eight. All eight answers. He was a writer and story editor on 15 episodes of Star Trek Picard. And why do I call it Star Trek Picard? I think I'm starting to believe you. And then he says it's still going to be a 50-50 towing cost as to where...

[01:22:55] No, that's not right. Towing cost? With that then, John, do you defend Vision Quest episode seven, Immolation? Yes, I do defend this episode. Really, really enjoyed it. I'd give it five Horton's here's a who. No, sorry. I'd give it five Horton's here's a vision out of five. Do you find that there are many people who have so much fun enemies? So what do we do which one maybe puts someone a bunch of them to manage these? I'd give it a little bit of a potential enemy of luck? Yeah, that's your point of luck. Another question.