Thunderbolts* Movie Review

[00:00:00] This is Movies on TV Podcast Industries and we're here to talk about Thunderbolts Asterix, the 36th movie in the MCU. This ends today. Congressman Barnes, wow. You know, I never really thought you'd have a promising political career, but less than half a term. Yikes. We're taking you in, Val. I don't think so. Junior varsity, Captain America.

[00:00:29] Walker. How nice to see you, Ava. Elena, you look awful. You sure you're really ready for that public-facing role you asked me about? It's shit, Valentino. Where's Bob? Look at you. You are all so adorable. Just think, I send you down there to kill each other and instead you make nice and you form a team. Who's this old Santa?

[00:00:59] I'm Lexi Shostakov. The Red Guardian. What?

[00:01:56] Of the MCU and the 36th movie in the MCU. I am one of your hosts, John. I am your other host, Derek. Ooh, I'm excited to talk about this one. Yeah, me too, actually. I kind of really enjoyed this. Yeah. Ultimately. If you haven't seen it, fellow defenders, I'd highly recommend going to see it. It's a lot of fun, isn't it? Yeah, it's a lot of fun. It feels like cast-offs coming together. I always kind of like that approach. It feels like Guardians of the Galaxy in that sense, but just on Earth.

[00:02:26] There's a good sense of humor running through it. I think Florence Pugh is great here as Yelena. Yeah. And also, I feel, you know, given all the delays, pushbacks, issues that have happened on the MCU's schedule, it's all to do with the schedule, really.

[00:02:48] It feels like the, you know, the end credits here, you know, are linking in to, you know, the movie that's just around the corner in, you know, spoiler-filled alert. We'll talk about it later. Yeah, we will. But do you know what I mean? So it feels recent, current, and appropriate for the next movie. Exactly. It doesn't feel like it's selling you sort of a sales year that's going to be five years off. And you're going to have to wait.

[00:03:16] Because actually, we saw the trailer of it before the movie. So, you know, in the end, I kind of like that as well. It felt like it was meant to be released now. Exactly. As part of that schedule. Because so many times it feels like the movies are edited to when they eventually get released two years later after they were supposed to be originally done. That kind of stuff. Yeah, there's even a quote early on in the movie that connects to the last movie that came out, to Captain America, Brave New World.

[00:03:46] There's even moments in the movie that connect to that movie. So it feels exactly right when it's released. Yeah. And interestingly, this weekend, the 2nd of May, 17 years ago was the release of the first MCU movie, Iron Man, came from the cinema on the 2nd of May 2008. So it feels like the right weekend to have a big Marvel movie come out and end phase five, start off phase six in a couple of weeks time. What a great way to kick it off and close down phase five. So highly recommend it.

[00:04:14] If you haven't gone to the cinema, stop here, go out to the cinema, watch it, and then come back and join us for the rest of our thoughts. But when you go there, make sure you stay to the final scene. Some people do think there's only one mid-scene credit and then leave, but there's a very long, about two and a half minutes post-credit scene that's well worth watching. Definitely. I think as well for me, I really like the cast members here around Florence Pugh, Sebastian Stan, David Harbour, and Julia Louis-Dreyfus.

[00:04:43] I really like their characters, but I'm also really pleased that there's both new characters, but also just some really kind of one-movie characters to an extent that maybe weren't in the best movie. But I'm just keen to see Ghost and Taskmaster, as well as John Walker here, because they're not as big as the others.

[00:05:11] So it's good to see them front and centre here. But we'll get into that anyway. I think we should get into our spoiler-filled discussion. Just before we get into the movie details, remember, fellow moviegoers and defenders, to pop on over to our website at tvpodcastindustries.com, where you can subscribe to the podcast on any good or evil podcast catcher of your choice.

[00:05:37] You can also find our socials there, and of course for any feedback for movies, but also the TV shows that we're covering at the moment, such as Last of Us. You can send in feedback there at feedback at tvpodcastindustries.com, as well as over on our Facebook group. Exactly. Exactly. Facebook.com slash groups slash TV Podcast Industries as well. Indeed. We'd love to hear your thoughts.

[00:06:04] Even if we're not just going to be reading them out in the podcast, please email us in your thoughts after you've gone to see the movie. We'd love to hear it. But from here on out, it's going to be spoiler-filled, all about Thunderbolts Asterix. And the Asterix does get explained, of course, because I know John was moaning about it for about three weeks before going to the cinema and going, oh, I'm sick of talking about that bloody Asterix. But it has been explained, will be explained. You go and see it at the cinema and find out for yourself before reading it anywhere. And of course, associated movies will be spoiled as well. Of course. At least everyone knows about them, so probably not really being spoiled.

[00:06:32] And yes, it is Thunderbolts Asterix, or hashtag Thunderbolts Asterix, forward slash, hashtag, exclamation mark, Thunderbolts, squiggly line. Well, maybe, yes. On the score. Derek, what are some of the movie details here? Who gave us what, where, when, how, and why, excluding Kevin Feige, because we know he's involved in everything. Well, he's the first person I'm going to give credit to.

[00:06:57] He's the producer of this movie, produced by Kevin Feige, with executive producers Louis Desposito, Brian Chapek, and Jason Tamez as well. And Thunderbolts Asterix was directed by Jake Schreerer. He directed episode five of Star Wars Skeleton Crew, which we talked about here on the podcast, and six of the ten episodes of the TV show Beef. Beef. This movie was actually supposed to reunite him with the writer Joanna Callow, who wrote this movie, and Beef star Stephen Young. Beef. Before the writers start, but unfortunately Stephen Young had to pull out because of the change in schedule he had.

[00:07:27] Other movies in his, in his lineup. So, this was supposed to be their project that they'd worked together on. Interesting. Yeah. So, did you think he was, would have been Bob? We know who he was. Yeah, he was definitely Bob. Oh, he was. Right, okay, grand. He pulled out. He was originally, he was, Bob has been known all the time that he was, he's the character Sentry from the comic books. So, people were saying Stephen Young was going to be in a Sentry, and then he pulled out, and somebody else had to take the place. Okay, yeah. And, of course, we are going to say Bob. Bob, of course we are, yes.

[00:07:55] Just in a Blackadder type of way, John. Yes. But, the story for this movie was by Eric Pearson, and the screenplay by Eric Pearson and Joanna Callow. Eric Pearson has written so much stuff, it's kind of hard to mention all the things he did, but he originally started out writing the Marvel one-shots. Ah, okay. All those shorts that we used to get back in the days when we didn't have a lot of Marvel content. We used to get little shorts between the movies, and because of his work on those, he got to do eight episodes of Agent Carter, one of the first MCU shows that we covered.

[00:08:24] And then he worked all the way through movies like Thor Ragnarok, and wrote the screenplay for Black Widow, which makes sense, given that this is technically the sequel to Black Widow. Yeah, absolutely. I would say. Joanna Callow is a writer on The Bear, Beef, and Bajak Horseman. Beef. Yep. To name just the bees in her very good CV. She's also a writer on the comedy series Hacks, which stars Gene Smart from Watchmen. Really fun show, actually. Really fun show. I'd highly recommend checking that one. Definitely.

[00:08:54] It's a good comedy series. But, John, do you want to tell us what they gave us with your synopsis for Thunderbolts Asterix? Sure. Since her sister Natasha died, Yelena Belova has just been going through the motions. Successfully complete her mission, go home alone, think about what she's done, and wait for another mission. Rinse. Repeat. Yelena needs a change and wants a more public-facing job.

[00:09:19] She visits her former fake father, Alexei Shastakov, aka the Red Guardian, to find out how he copes. But Alexei just wants to get some missions like Yelena. But her boss, Valentina Allegra de Fontaine, has other things on her mind, as she's being impeached for her nefarious activities by Congressman Gary, with the backing of newly elected Congressman James Buchanan Barnes.

[00:09:45] Valentina needs to create separation from all the things that could impeach her, and so she arranges a mission for each of her major assets, to target each other, hoping to kill them all and freeing herself from them. In the bunker, Yelena accidentally releases an experiment named Bob in her fight against John Walker. And while Ghost kills her target Taskmaster, they soon realise they are trapped.

[00:10:10] They team up together to find their way out, and Alexei arrives in his Red Guardian limo to help save them. Bob is captured by Valentina and is taken to her new tower in New York City. As the rest of the rag-tag outfit try to escape, Bucky captures them all to use them in his case against Valentina. Arriving in New York, they soon have other problems, as they realise that Bob is much more than he seemed.

[00:10:36] Realising that her plan failed and her assets are still very much alive, Valentina invites them all to the former Avengers headquarters in New York, and shows off Bob's new persona as the Sentry. Cool name. Indeed. Attention! A superhero in Valentina's control. Despite what they had done to help Bob, he is tasked with defeating this new team, tentatively named the Thunderbolts.

[00:11:03] After being easily beaten by this new super-powered being, the group go their separate ways, but it's not long until they learn there is something much more sinister behind the Sentry. Bob had bipolar disorder long before going through the experiment, which gave him superpowers. His extreme highs have created the Sentry, but his opposite side creates the Void, a dark being which pulls everyone around him into their darkest memory.

[00:11:31] Yelena is willingly taken by the Void so she can try to help Bob. The rest of the Thunderbolts, Red Guardian, Ghost, Bucky and John Walker all join her in the Void. The team come together and help Bob to overcome the Void and return the light to New York City. But the act wipes Bob of his memory of what happened. The new team join together to capture Valentina for her crimes, but she brings them in front of the press and reveals this was her plan all along,

[00:11:59] and has officially, in quotation marks, created the new Avengers, to mixed reactions from the world, especially from Sam Wilson, the new Captain America. In the mid-credits scene, Red Guardian proudly pushes a box of Wheaties cereal with the team on the box to anyone who will listen. After the credits, the New Avengers are in Avengers Tower discussing the upcoming legal battle over their name, as an extra-dimensional ship is detected.

[00:12:26] As they locate and view the ship, it turns to reveal a fantastic blue number four on its side. The new Avengers, and of course, Bob will return. Yay! This is the new Avengers, John. Exactly. Very cool. Or is it? Or is it? Still going through a legal battle with Sam Wilson. Yes. In the MCU. But I have to say, I did want to ensure that we kept in the synopsis that the team is created to mixed reactions from the world,

[00:12:56] because I am certain that if it had come out and the poster just had the new Avengers written on it, it would be to mixed reactions of the MCU fandom. Well, indeed. So, put Thunderbolts on it. What a cool idea. I must say, now that I've seen the movie, Thunderbolts Asterix, is a really funny title for it, because it is just covering up the idea that it is actually the new Avengers movie. Yeah, it's cool. Fun. Like it. I hope they really do stay as the new Avengers. Me too. I'm guessing probably not.

[00:13:25] But then, because there's young Avengers, I'm just kind of, is there an oddball Avengers? There is. Well, the Thunderbolts, yeah, they'd be kind of the oddball Avengers. I guess they are, but I want Avengers in the title. Yeah. So, Thunderbolts Avengers. West Coast Avengers. West Coast Avengers. Or the Great Lakes Avengers. Thunderbolts Avengers, I guess. Something like that, yeah. Yeah, something like that. But it is an odd one, because, again, part of the reason I think this all changed, the concept changed to it becoming the new Avengers rather than Thunderbolts,

[00:13:55] is because the Thunderbolts are named after Thaddeus Thunderbolt Ross, the character who, in Captain America Brave New World, is the president, played by Harrison Ford. So he is Thunderbolt, yeah? I have the feeling that Marvel may have been writing the two scripts at the same time, and when Captain America wanted to use Thunderbolt Ross in such a big way in Brave New World, the writers of Thunderbolts went, oh, I guess we can't use him as the name for this leader of the team,

[00:14:23] so we'll have to use Julie Louis-Dreyfus in here as the leader of the Thunderbolts. Because if you were to use the comic book origin, you would have to have Thaddeus Ross in here, but you can't after he's become Red Hulk. But he's locked away in the raft, and certainly wasn't involved in putting the team together. I mean, for me personally, I much prefer the fact that this team is put together by Valentina Allegra de Fontaine

[00:14:50] rather than Thaddeus Ross, because he's a bit of an annoyance, really. She's equally as dubious as him, but just much funnier about it. And I think it works. I think it makes you... I don't know, something put together by Thaddeus Ross, I'd just be immediately suspicious of and see them negatively. This is... Yes, they're doing bad work.

[00:15:14] Yes, it's kind of subversive acts against the enemies of the US, and so on. But it's the fact that it's Valentina Allegra de Fontaine that is doing it, and I immensely like this character. She's very good in here as well. She's really good in here. But what I do like about it is she didn't actually put the team together. They accidentally joined up together. They are all individual assets of the Contessa, of Valentina. That's true. And then they kind of fall into a group.

[00:15:44] She unknowingly puts them together by actually putting them together with the aim of killing and destroying that group of people. But she uses them... She puts them in the same room and they happen to form a team. She uses them separately, though, for the different missions that she needs them for. Exactly. But they also do seem to be aware of one another, that they're involved with Valentina. I think so. Yeah, I think so. And I know it's been about five minutes since I mentioned that I'm a Nick Fury fan, John. Did you know that?

[00:16:14] I've been podcasting for ten years about Marvel. Actually, yeah, but you've been quite quiet about it on the Defenders podcast anyway. I have. But I'll mention it here. I'm a massive Nick Fury fan. What always fascinates me is the character of Valentina was created as a love interest for Nick Fury back in the 60s by Jim Stranko. So she is a gorgeous super spy. That's basically her deal. Total perfect match for Nick Fury. And I suddenly had this moment watching the performance of Julie Louis-Dreyfus going,

[00:16:43] would she work really well with Samuel L. Jackson as her Nick Fury and the two of them partnering up together as a couple? It just wouldn't work. She's a completely different character than that Nick Fury character or that character from S.H.I.E.L.D. back in the day. And I really like Julie Louis-Dreyfus here. I'm not a massive fan of her and loads of other things, but I do really like her here. She's got a good sense of humor about her in here. Definitely. Definitely. I think it really works. I like the take of this character.

[00:17:12] She was also in the last Black Panther movie as the wife to Everett Ross, effectively. And that's kind of settled up effectively the threat to Nemo's civilization under the water. So, yeah, I mean, I really kind of enjoyed her when she's been in both the movies as well as the TV show.

[00:17:42] Yeah, she was kind of for a couple of years she's been going around the MCU just picking up random characters here and there and giving them jobs. And now we kind of know what those jobs are as we get into this movie. Indeed. But let us get into our top five points for the Thunderbolts Asterix movie. First point is, every day is exactly the same. Yeah.

[00:18:05] It's an interesting one, actually, because in a sense it does set up a bit of that theme of people getting into a rut. Whether it's a temporary one or one that is more ingrained, deep-seated and intrinsic to the personality, like with Bob. But this is this idea of Yelena Belova really just going through the same motions day or mission after mission. Yes.

[00:18:30] Day after day where she has to keep herself to herself because of her job. Nothing really is a challenge given that she came from the Black Widow school of counter-espionage and infiltration, the Red Room. And so I like how she's effectively losing the zest of life with these missions. And it's all been compounded since the death of her sister Natasha.

[00:18:58] So it is that idea of grief having that sort of prolonged effect here on her. And so, you know, we have this all being sort of played out in a deadpan sort of voiceover from Yelena. As she's doing exactly what she's kind of, in a sense, complaining about. Well, exactly. Yes. Yeah. And sort of wanting to change.

[00:19:27] And I kind of quite like that because she's hugely efficient at taking out these guys, getting into the lab, you know, and getting her mission done. I love that she, when you learn after about halfway through the voiceover that she's telling this story to a security guard that she's got tied up while she's waiting for the person that she needs to use his face to get into the lab that she's breaking into. She's just telling this whole story to this guy.

[00:19:53] But I guess what I really like about this is that she has a massively exciting life. She has, you know, if people watch James Bond movies, they watch it because they want to be James Bond. She's basically that level of proficiency. She's able to travel the world on these missions, do whatever she wants to. But she's bored of it. She's sick of not having anybody to go home to at the end of the day as part of the issue. Right. She has nobody in her life. Her sister's dead. She's been separated from everybody.

[00:20:21] And I guess being a very efficient killer doesn't make you friends with a lot of people, you know. So that's kind of the situation that Yildon is in here. She's going through grief after the loss of her sister, but also she seems to be going through her own level of depression. It's also the constant suspicion of other people. It's all of that. It's just the lifestyle that this is, is something that she, you know, she wants to move away from. But I do like this.

[00:20:47] I like the fact that as well, the person who she needs the face for, she does blow his face off. And she's like, oh, I needed that. Actually, he blows his own face off because he trips on the gun. Yes, that's true. But it's like, just like the way she says, I needed that. And I mean, I think just the drollness of how Florence Pugh voices Yulana is really good. Because I think it works so well.

[00:21:15] You know, like she's meeting up with Alexei as well. And just his, he's like an overexcited bunny. And she is like, in fact, it's almost a bit like Pinky and Brain. I think, you know, like she's Brain and she's just like ultimately bored of everything. And nothing is like really, she doesn't get excited in the same way than her, you know, fake father Alexei is. So I kind of like that dynamic for sure. Definitely.

[00:21:44] And again, with going through this mission, I like that, you know, she's reporting back in to say that it's complete. But she's waiting, she's hanging on the word complete until the whole floor of this skyscraper where the labs are is blown out. And she's like, now it's complete. Exactly. You know, I kind of like that. Yeah.

[00:22:07] But the interesting little tidbit of information in terms of that opening stunt where she jumps off the building to get to her target building is that she actually did this. And she jumped off and parachuted off the Merdeka building in Kuala Lumpur in Malaysia.

[00:22:33] And this is the second tallest building in the world and 2,227 feet tall. So fair dues to her. Because I certainly wouldn't be doing anything like that. And it is interesting. You know, you kind of go, oh, is this just, you know, CGI post-production work? And that's then Florence Pugh's stunt double. But she actually wanted to do this. She saw it written in the script. And she was like, well, can I do it? You know, so I really like that.

[00:23:03] It's great. It's, yeah, Tom cruising it, I guess. Well, I love. In that sense. Yeah, exactly. But I love that, of course, the insurance company are going, absolutely not. She's the main star of your new movie. We're not going to cover your movie if you put her doing the stunt in this scene. You know, it took her ages to convince them to do it. But now seeing the movie, I heard that before we went into the movie that she'd done the stunt. But now seeing the movie and realizing she's acting the whole time as well. It's not just that she did the stunt. So no offense, Tom Cruise. Absolutely love his movies.

[00:23:32] Absolutely love that he does his own stunts. But he even jokes himself that sometimes they can't use the takes of some of the stunts because he's enjoying it so much. He's not acting there. He's doing a stunt. Yeah. Whereas here, she's acting the whole time, bored off her head by doing the same thing over and over again. So she's bored doing the jump off the second tallest building in the world and parachuting down. You can see the boredom on her face. And that's acting. Yeah, I agree. To look bored when you're doing a jump like that. I agree. That could kill you.

[00:24:00] But the actual fall off then. Yeah, no, I agree. That initial setup of where she falls off and how she does that. It's almost like that step over. Exactly. Like walking a plank almost. No, I get that. I think Tom Cruise does that as well. He does. I'm not going to criticize Tom Cruise. Sorry. I think the point is that in this instance then, when she falls, it is a wide shot. Yeah. So you don't see her face or anything like that. Too interested in the parachute though. That's awesome. Yeah, once it's open.

[00:24:30] But that initial fall until the parachute opens is in a wide shot. Well, I will say genuinely. I don't know if she was having a time of her life. No, she did a stunt. I doubt she actually did what is on screen there completely start to finish. I don't think that's what is intended when she said she did the stunt. Because the stunt could be falling afoot off the building to start off the wide shot effectively. So I get it.

[00:24:58] But I just wanted to make the comment that she's also acting throughout that. She's also troubled by the fact that this is a boring job and a boring life for doing something massively exciting. For most other people in the world. I love it. And throughout the movie. Terrifying. Terrifying for a lot of people as well, like me. But I also make the point, yeah, throughout the movie itself, she really holds this movie together. She is fantastic in her. I remember watching the Black Widow movie. It was my first real introduction to Florence Pugh.

[00:25:26] And I thought she was absolutely brilliant in the Black Widow movie. I remember being sorry that we wouldn't see her for a very long time again. Then she turned up in Hawkeye and she was brilliant in there. Really enjoyable. So throughout this movie, she's the star. It feels like this could be her movie. Definitely. She's the glue. And I would say David Harbour, a close second. And, you know, he's fun, but it is it is Florence Pugh's movie. Oh, definitely. Definitely. She's the glue that binds them here.

[00:25:56] And it's why it's why I said this movie is the sequel to Black Widow, because we've got three characters from Black Widow in this movie. Yeah. You know, so I think you mentioned her just just. Yeah, we'll talk about that. Definitely. Definitely. But you mentioned her going to meet up with Alexei. That's kind of the one thing she has left to do to try and see if she can rekindle a friendship with her former fake father, Alexei, going over to his house. But he's not really helpful at all to her.

[00:26:22] You know, he's he he is kind to her when he finally realizes that she is going through this loneliness and does kind of say to her that he's very proud of what she's achieved. But it's still not enough for her. She wants she still wants this new life. I guess she wants to take over from where her sister left off. She wants to be out from the shadows in the light and and being a public presence. Yeah. And he's the one that's been kind of put out to pasture here.

[00:26:49] He's been put on the shelf, you know, and he is the one that's looking at her going. I want your job. I want to work for Valentina. So it's almost the wrong person to go to. It is. And to be honest. But yeah, I do like the dynamic here. Yeah. And that's kind of the setup for two of the Thunderbolts here. Indeed. At the beginning of the movie. Let's take a look at Val and I guess all the rest of the team in our bullet point number two. Yes. Bullet point number two. Val's government trouble. Yeah.

[00:27:19] So Valentina Allegra de Fontaine. And Countessa indeed. In the comics, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. Is currently under fire from Congress. You can tell this is almost historical because I'm not too sure they'll do that anymore. An impeachment. Exactly. What are you talking about? Because she's almost going to be impeached for having utilised her position at its OXE.

[00:27:46] I thought they said something different, but I think that's the organisation that she's sort of in charge of here. She was, yeah. Or supposed to be, yeah. She says she divested her interests in OXE when she became the head of CIA. The head of CIA. Exactly. But this is all still going on. All these different pieces of experimentation, weapons development and so on. I must say, I love that scene. She's at the impeachment. She's saying, absolutely not at all. Nothing that I could possibly do.

[00:28:15] And it cuts to her with like tons and tons of trucks taking away all the things she could possibly be impeached for. Absolutely. It's really good. But as a result of that hearing with Congressman Gary, then she needs to have a scorched earth protocol to remove any trace of her continued involvement with OXE. Primarily at this huge warehousing facility that is a mile underground. That was kind of a cool location, actually. It was, yeah.

[00:28:45] I really liked that. It felt very Bond villainy. Yeah, it really did. And you have it focused primarily around Yelena, who has been asked to go down there and take out Ghost, effectively, one of her other assets. Little does she know that Valentina has set this up whereby each of the assets are going down there to kill another one of those assets.

[00:29:10] And ultimately will be locked in a room, which is effectively an oversized furnace and burnt, cremated, effectively, burnt to a crisp. And literally scorched earth policy from Valentina. That is a protocol in labs that work with the creation of diseases and creation of... Yeah, you have...

[00:29:40] Yeah, no, they do. So there's different categories of laboratory depending on... It depends on what they're studying, but if it's biological hazards and diseases, infections and so on. So primarily, whilst I wasn't involved with labs like that, there were labs in our laboratory complex that dealt with that. It's in case something gets loose, basically, isn't it? Well, it's containment. So it's containment.

[00:30:08] It's separation of wastes so that it's highly contained. And it was primarily to do with animal diseases. So like the rage virus couldn't get released from 28 days later. No, exactly. Or the assets from Thunderbolts can't get released into the world. Well, it's how the air is filtrated, how the water is removed. It's how the levels of a box within a box within a box around containment. It's the hygiene protocols. So yeah, this is a bit...

[00:30:38] It's not normally four big jet engines that are pointing down. No, this is a bit different. And I mean, it's interesting, you know, when you see laboratories in the middle of cities that may have a certain category of containment. Because you're like, it really is close to people. Yeah. You say interesting, I say terrifying. But I mean, the protocols are pretty good. I mean, it is to minimize the hazard of something being released. Exactly.

[00:31:08] Which, ultimately, a massive jet furnace of some description will do. I mean, yeah. I mean, it's a pretty intense kind of setup here that Val has done. But I do like then how it plays out. And you have Yelena tracking Ghost as she sort of phases through the door. And she has full access when she's down there. She's then attacked by John Walker, who is being tracked by Taskmaster.

[00:31:36] And Ghost in and of herself then is tracking Taskmaster. Yeah. So, like, there's this... Great idea. Yeah. Neat little circle happening of them are fighting one another, wondering what's going on. Exactly. It's a great way to use the absolute standard comic book where two heroes meet, they must punch each other in the face to begin their conversation and begin working together. So, here we've got them all set up by Valentina to meet each other.

[00:32:02] Either they kill each other off as they go in and the survivor is killed by the jet engines installed. Or the jet engines kill all four people. So, the protocol kills all four people that are there. So, either one will work for her. But she doesn't realize, I guess, how good they really are. And, accidentally during the fight, as far as I noticed anyway, Yelena falls into a containment unit breaking out. The fifth member of the team, I guess. Yes.

[00:32:31] And we're introduced to Bob. Bob. Old Bob. Yeah. Is accidentally released. She does. Yelena also does see plans around the experimentation that has happened to create Sentry. And, at this moment. But he kind of appears and mainly the fighting superheroes, super villains aren't taking too much notice of him.

[00:33:00] Because it just literally looks like someone has woken up from a sleep. Because you have John Walker saying, where did he come from? You know, it's almost as though one of the security guards got left behind and fell asleep. That's what's like. In the room. And has been woken up by all the commotion between Taskmaster, Ghost, John Walker, and Yelena. I must say I'm impressed with the writers for not over-explaining what happened to Bob and why he's there.

[00:33:31] Because they could have. I think you're able to put together the story in your mind about what happened. He talks about it later on. Let's talk about it here. He talks about it later on in the movie where he says he was wandering because of his situation with his family. He was wandering, looking for purpose in his life. He learned about the experimentation here that would make him into a superhero. Effectively, they were doing a version of the super soldier serum that both Bucky and Red Guardian have. And they were going to experiment on him. It would seem like the experiment went wrong.

[00:33:59] They found out that he is as powerful as we see he is later on in the movie. And then locked him up. That's what it seems like to me. That's the reason why he's under wraps here and why he's hidden in this lab. But that's not explained in the movie. That's not written out in the movie. No, it's not really. Valentina knows he's very powerful because that's how she gets him as the sentry. Yeah. She knows what the sentry experimentation is supposed to do.

[00:34:24] And the thing that you do learn as well is that most of the subjects died during the experimentation. But she's surprised to see Bob because she thinks he's died as well. And the body is being got rid of here. It is literally being cremated. Yeah. And so, but as soon as she sees him, knows that that's the asset around the sentry program,

[00:34:53] then she knows what capabilities are there with the fact that he has survived it. So she very much knows, but she just didn't realize she had that full sentry asset. I think that's the way I kind of got it. But I like how it trickles through, as you say. It's not immediately up front. I mean, even you have Bob saying he was touring Southeast Asia looking for ways to escape, like through drugs and so on.

[00:35:18] And then happens upon, as you say, this experimentation being done, you know, maybe where the regs are a little looser around what they can and can't do, around sort of human testing or trials, or even that they sort of couched it in those terms, that it was a human trial or something rather than a full-on human experimentation.

[00:35:46] So, yeah, I mean, it's really good how that happens. You've got the release of Bob. You also, as well, get the death of Taskmaster here, which I was massively shocked by, surprised by. Me too. I mean, it's a full-on bullet in the head from Ghost here. Yeah. And, you know, takes down Taskmaster. And then I sort of think, oh, surely Taskmaster will come back here.

[00:36:13] You know, she's so powerful or that maybe the bullet didn't penetrate the mask fully. She's just been knocked out or something, you know. But, no, and it's really surprising because I kind of thought Taskmaster was going to be in this team. But, no, Taskmaster gets killed with a bullet through the head from Ghost and then effectively incinerated. Yeah.

[00:36:42] So, no Taskmaster in Thunderbolts here. And I was a little sad for that because I don't think you got enough of her in Black Widow. Well, she was the secret character, wasn't she? You know, it wasn't revealed who she was until the end of the movie. Olga Kuryolenko played the character. She was Dreykov's daughter in the movie. It was revealed at the end of the movie. So, throughout, all you saw was this character in a mask. Didn't say anything.

[00:37:11] Didn't have any conversations. And I guess that's part of the reason why that's the character that you let go, isn't it? Because you can't have the banter that all the rest of the characters have together. I will say that it did a great job with Ghost here, who previously was in Ant-Man and the Wasp. Not the greatest of films and not the greatest of roles for Hannah John-Kamen back in Ant-Man and the Wasp. But she's really good here. I kind of like the fact that she's possibly the most untrusting of all the members of Thunderbolts. You don't ever really know whether she's going to come back.

[00:37:41] She leaves a bunch of times in the movie. And you don't ever know whether she's actually going to do what she says she's going to do. I like that that plays out as the doors come down. Initially, she can't phase through the doors because there's a sonic device that prevents her from doing that. But they manage to isolate that and disable it. So she does with the intention that you'll open up the doors because they can see the clock counting down.

[00:38:10] I love the fact that this furnace has a huge sort of digital clock counting down. Well, if you're working in there and somebody accidentally touched the button, you'd want a counting clock to get yourself out of there, wouldn't you? Well, I guess. Or like, okay, well, I've got a minute left. Let's see what I can do in a minute. Yeah. And, you know, there's, as you say, that little suspicion as to whether she will open up the doors. And it looks increasingly unlikely. I mean, she leaves it really last minute.

[00:38:38] And then again, as they are escaping from the building, because I do like how this team escapes up through the central shaft and sort of all with their backs to one another walking up the wall. It is hilarious. No, they said it was a mile deep. So they're doing this for a long time. And they've got stamina. I'll give them that.

[00:39:01] I like the fact that when they realize they've gotten to the top, they're like, well, how do we unravel this so we can actually get to safety? And John Walker just takes the executive decision to sort of do this. Because he's an a-hole. And they all manage to survive. But I think, you know, again, the place gets surrounded by Valentina's sort of heavies.

[00:39:29] And Ghost kind of just says, well, I can go invisible and phase out and walk out of here. Which she does. Bye. Which is kind of like with the promise, well, I'll come back and help. She's not sure. But again, John Walker, Yelena, Bob, they just don't know whether that's going to happen. Exactly. And I really enjoyed this kind of sequence up through the escaping.

[00:39:54] I mean, even just with Valentina and her main security guy who used to be in The Wire, Chris Bauer, who plays Holt. She's like, I don't want lethal force. But we've trained for lethal force here. This is really well done. And then they start getting wiped down. It's like, use lethal force. It's very funny. Really good to see him.

[00:40:21] Chris Bauer was in True Blood for like six seasons, all the seasons of the show. And was in The Wire. Yes, that was second season at the docks. Yeah. And it was just really interesting to see him here and Wendell Pierce, also from The Wire, as Congressman Gary, the worst named congressman in all of moviedom, I think. Again, I just had in my mind Team America World Police with Gary. The actor Gary. The actor Gary.

[00:40:48] But I think that film has ruined the name Gary. Or always has me pronouncing it in that way. And fellow Defenders, my nephew, one of my favorite people in the world, is called Gary. And he gets that from John every time he sees him as well. I'm sorry. But anyway, the next member of the Thunderbolts arrives to help them all outside of the lab as they're escaping. That's when Alexei arrives.

[00:41:17] Because Alexei, on one of his jobs as a limo driver, happened to be driving Valentina and overhears that they're going to take out his daughter. He's got very suspicious connections. But alas, he does show up. We should hasten to add as well that Ghost does actually help by pulling up in the truck to sort of... After the security has been distracted by Bob. Bob.

[00:41:47] And you kind of see a lot of his power here because he gets shot multiple times and survives. You can see that he can fly. But he doesn't have full control necessarily of the power. Or his control is just lacking so he falls back down to earth. And in that commotion, the security who are about to get on to these escaping assets have to sort of rush to deal with Bob.

[00:42:17] And they manage to escape that way. But Ghost does come back to help. And then you get Alexei coming in in his dreadful red limo as well to then help them escape back to, I guess, civilization. Because they're literally in the middle of nowhere. They are. They are. So do you want to talk a little bit about Sentry, the character? Yes. Because he's a really interesting character for Marvel.

[00:42:45] Because he is so similar to like a Superman. But as with Marvel, always there's a flaw behind him. There's a real human behind the character. But I do think it's an interesting character to have. There's not that many Marvel characters that are able to fly on their own, is there, as a superpower that I can think of. There's people that use suits. And there's people that use, like Thor uses his hammer to fly, at least in the comic books. So I can't think of that many characters. So he does feel like a Superman character.

[00:43:14] But he has the other side of him, which we will talk about later on, that comes up in the movie. In the comic books, he has that other side as well. So he isn't a Superman. He doesn't stand as Marvel's version of Clark Kent or Superman. No, I mean, I thought, I really enjoyed Bob in this. And I enjoyed everything around Sentry. It's not a character I would know much about.

[00:43:38] I think this idea of Sentry being the light side of this bipolar nature of Bob and the void being sort of the deep troughs of sinking, depression, negativity. And being that void, I mean, it almost looked like negative space. Yeah. The way it was done.

[00:44:07] It was really well done. I like how that backstory sort of plays out. Me too. I must say I thought it was Mr. Negative. And I know you played the Spider-Man video games with me, Tom, as well. And Mr. Negative is a character in the first Spider-Man game. I think he's in the second one as well. But he looks very similar to that. And that's what I thought the void was when he was there. I was like, oh, that's interesting that Bob Sentry would become the void. But that is the comic book character as well.

[00:44:35] That's exactly how the comic book character plays. He has the good side. He can do all of these super things. But him being upbeat, hugely powerful is one side of him. And then the other side has to take over. It's not a choice to be one or the other. Both things have to take place because they're both part of Bob. Exactly. But I like how the void fully becomes realized.

[00:45:00] Because in Valentina's obsession to have control over this asset, this control over a superhero, she puts a kill switch embedded in the brain. And Sentry suddenly, after dispatching the Thunderbolts quite easily.

[00:45:25] And I think that's really, you know, it just gives you that idea of how powerful Sentry is. Yeah. Because he deals with Bookie Barnes, Alexei, Ghost, Yelena, and John Walker all coming at him at the same time. Like, they're also not, it's not like Thor. You know, they're also not the most powerful. But nonetheless, I like how. There's two super soldiers there, yeah.

[00:45:51] Yeah, but I like how that comes back, speaking of Thor, about, well, I'm like a god. He suddenly realizes, you know, that power that he has. Yes, Val says to him that he is more powerful than all of the Avengers combined. And it's just an interesting ego switch for him. Because he goes, oh, at least one of them's a god. Therefore, I'm a god myself. And starts to question then why he should be taking orders from Valentina. Yeah, not a good idea.

[00:46:19] No, it has her up against the wall by the neck. But it's her assistant again who comes in to save the day. Mel, who uses the kill switch on him. And you think, okay, well, the Sentry is dealt with quite easily here. But she's killed the light side in that moment. Disabled that light side effectively.

[00:46:43] And so the void is able to come and completely fill the body of Bob. And so you get this negative, almost antimatter space where it's just this black figure with really small, piercing, sort of almost like white silver type eyes. So I really enjoyed that. I know we've also got to talk about that in point three. So hopefully I haven't gone too much into it there.

[00:47:11] But, you know, this is really where then the Thunderbolts, in a sense, look to sort of go their separate ways, really, after being given a thrashing by the Sentry. Do you know, I love this, I must say, because we're so used to the Marvel characters going, you know, I could do this all day, the Captain America thing.

[00:47:36] You know, you get beaten down, you get back up, dust yourself off and form a plan and then take down the bad guy. The Thunderbolts here are like, we're not really even a team. You know, the name Thunderbolts is given to them because that's what Yelena's childhood soccer team were in a photograph that her dad had. No connection to anybody else in the team. They're not really responding to the name at all. It's not being, you know, they're not really saying that they're a team called the Thunderbolts. It's just a little bit of a throwaway joke.

[00:48:03] And they all just look at each other after being beaten by a century and go, well, didn't really need to be together. We can't beat this. We're totally outclassed. So see you later, basically. Which I just kind of like. You know, I know that's something that happened in the Guardians of the Galaxy, which is the other movie that people are referencing, the other Marvel movie, let's say, that people are referencing. The Suicide Squad never had that because their heads would explode if they didn't work together. That was the other. Like the sentries. They had the kill switch.

[00:48:33] Exactly. Exactly. So I just like it as a choice for this movie that they're all walking away, all going their separate ways before the next attack happens, I suppose. Yeah, definitely. One other thing, I suppose, in this section, just to mention, is how Bucky Barnes gets incorporated into all this. Bucky Barnes has become a senator since the last time we saw him in Captain America, Brave New World. We saw that he was on the trail. So this is a few months or maybe a year later. He's been a senator for five months now.

[00:49:01] And part of his job is working with Congressman Gary, trying to take down Valentino. That's what he wants to do with his role as a congressman. So we get that awesome scene. The reason why I wanted to mention it, because we get that awesome scene where he chases down the people that are chasing down the Thunderbolts as Alexi's driving them away in the limo. So just an amazing scene with him on the motorbike doing all his old Winter Soldier tricks. Winter Soldier on the motorbike is so good.

[00:49:30] And those disc things that fly out across the road to blow the vehicles up or attach onto them. Yeah. Really cool. I just like the way it flipped those armored vehicles, but then also the stretch limo that Alexi is driving. And I just really like that. It felt a bit reminiscent of The Dark Knight with the flip of the truck in Chicago.

[00:49:59] It's such a cool effect where it just kind of flips up. Such a large, long vehicle flips up and goes over. Oh, I just love the realization of Alexi that actually they're not safe. Bucky's coming for them. He's not coming to help them get away. I love that moment. I think that's really good fun. I also love that moment when Bucky gets the tow cable from one of the trucks, stops his bike, holds it on his vibranium arm and flips that truck using the power of the arm.

[00:50:27] It's such a great intro for a character. He's not in the movie a lot as a character. He's there, definitely. And he is part of the team, sort of. Yeah. The amount of work that Sebastian Stan is doing. He's in so many movies, so many TV shows at the moment. So he isn't there fully for the whole movie. But the moments that he's on screen, they really give him some cool moments. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, really enjoyed seeing him.

[00:50:53] I think as well, just that moment as they're driving then back to New York. There was a moment with Alexi and Bucky and Alexi's asking him, what serum did you get? He's like, hydro on. He's like, oh, good, good stuff. Fancy. Yeah. It was really well done. I have Russian serum. Similar. Not as fancy. Yeah, exactly. So that was pretty good. But in the back of that van, there's also a very weird discussion with Walker about the size of his gun.

[00:51:23] And that Yelena is, it feels like banter. They're talking to each other. He's talking about his gun being a couple of inches longer than her gun. Yeah. You can tell that Yelena finds this hilarious that he doesn't find it hilarious. Yeah. That he's talking about the length of his gun. And they also have a big joke about his mask. Because you remember when he was in Falcon, the Winter Soldier, the TV show, the images in came out and everybody was comparing him to Carl from the Pixar movie Up.

[00:51:53] They were comparing him to Carl because his head was so squashed in the mask. So here we have Yelena asking, do you like them? Do you like the mask? Do you like how it looks on you? As long as you like it, then it's OK. And he's like, yeah, I think it looks pretty cool. But that's the joke, because at the time everybody was slagging him off for it. So I love it. I love it. But again, the banter throughout this movie is really what makes it and elevates it into something very interesting for a Marvel movie. Yeah. No, it's good. It keeps it light. And I think it makes it really enjoyable.

[00:52:23] And certainly because I think coming to bullet point three, good mental health is important. Because it just has that moment where it flips with... Yeah. You know, I mentioned about the void taking over Bob's body and sentry with this sort of kill switch that Mel does.

[00:52:46] But it suddenly becomes literally and metaphorically really dark in terms of the consequences of the void. And in a sense, having the free reign for that moment to sort of envelop Bob and be a part of that power that is released on New York City.

[00:53:11] And you just see this darkness taking over the city, creeping, you know, the shadow. It really does feel like shadow. I love, you know, the movement of the hand and just, you know, the people just being turned into sort of shadow on the pavements, on the road, against the wall. It's really, really brutal. Like that power is massive.

[00:53:38] Well, the fact that they use it on a young girl. So effectively, there's the exit of sentry from the building and the battle that happened beforehand causes damage to the former Avengers terror. All the pieces are falling to the ground. The Thunderbolts are trying to save people around as pieces of... As helicopters are falling, being taken out of the sky by the void, you know.

[00:54:05] But it's the fact that they use it on a young girl who's looking for her mom. And he's just been saved as well. She's like six or seven years old, maybe. And he just turns her into dust. And, you know, in the MCU, being dusted is quite a big thing. You know, we remember it from Infinity War, you know. But here we have them, yeah, being shadowed. I love the inspiration for this. The writer and director say that they took the inspiration from the images after a nuclear bomb has dropped, which left behind the shadows of people.

[00:54:34] So that's the inspiration for it. And that's why it looks so brutal when it's happening. You think, obviously, the first time seeing it, not knowing what's happening to them. You think they're being wiped from the planet. Absolutely, absolutely. I think it's, like, really interesting that they go into the void, you know, in that sense. I love the fact that, you know, with the void taking control of sentry, it dehumanizes him. Yes, there's this silhouette of the sentry.

[00:55:01] But there's no light on it. It just takes in all the light other than these piercing eyes. And I love, then, that Yelena sort of enters this void in order to save and to reach Bob to try and drag him back. I mean, the full team join up ultimately.

[00:55:26] But I love how this plays out where she gets reflections of him in the room and having to figure out. And it's not overly long in any way, I don't think, this bit. Like, in some respects, I kind of, just the way the voyage came, I was like, oh, I wish this had happened a bit earlier. There was a bit more of it because I just thought it was a really cool idea. Well, I love the kind of setup of it throughout the film.

[00:55:52] Each time that Bob touches one of the other characters, he brings them to their bad place, to their worst place. Yeah. So Yelena has seen her worst day when she effectively got another member of the Red Room killed because she was assigned to have them killed. And the girl was only, was a young girl. And so was she at the time. So that was her worst day. It affected her for her entire life.

[00:56:13] And John Walker also, when Bob touches him, you see him when he's reading the newspapers about his fall after being Captain America, how bad his time was with his wife and his kid. So that's kind of seeding how bad things are going to get when the void arrives. But it's this big moment when Yelena goes inside and has to face her worst fear, her worst day so that she can reach Bob.

[00:56:43] I think it's a really effective scene and a really interesting way of it. And it happens over and over again until she can figure out how to get through to Bob. But again, it's multiple sort of different worst days then for Bob. And it's more that she reaches Bob by getting to a place where he feels safe, which is up in his attic room. Yeah.

[00:57:07] Whilst his parents are ultimately, not all of the time, but begin to argue downstairs. But that's where he feels safe. And that's where you're able to reach him. And then the void starts to try and mess with that. And you have Bob and the void in the lab where he was created. Bob trying to take control to try and rescue the situation.

[00:57:35] But I love how then the void starts creeping up his body. And it's for the others to try and get across this expanding laboratory space in order to effectively, maybe want of a better word, give him a big hug to reassure him that they're here to help, support and be in his life. You're not alone. And it does look really good, actually. I loved it, yeah.

[00:58:04] You know, I think we need more of that. Definitely. I think that's the central concept of the movie, the idea that they can save someone by being a team with them, I think, is really good. But this is where I got the idea that the reason why Bob was locked up in the lab was because the experimentation had gone wrong. If you saw the scene around where Bob is in the lab, there's two kind of shadows on the wall, which would probably have been the scientists. Scientists, yeah. I'm guessing.

[00:58:33] So it's like the void broke out, killed them, and they went, oh, need to lock this asset down. That makes a lot of sense there, I think. And presumably then, you know, Bob came back because there was the high, you know. Exactly. I just think the concept's really good that this superhero is a superhero or not, depending on the highs and lows that he experiences as someone having bipolar.

[00:59:04] Yeah. And I think that was kind of interesting to me. So, yeah, it was good to see them come and effectively rescue Bob, effectively, and to pull him out of that void, which is such a great apt term for it. And you see the light returning to New York and the people being restored as they are being pulled out of the void as it retreats. Yeah.

[00:59:33] And then we kind of hear the third element of Bob. So when he's Sentry, he's superpowered. When he's the void, he's super dark. And then after he's both of them, he loses his memory of what he's just done. So that's an interesting little element there. He also says, if you have Sentry, you have the void. You can't have one without the other. Yeah. And then he'll forget what he did afterwards. So what an interesting idea for a character and what a great way that they used him in the movie here. Yeah, definitely.

[01:00:03] I would have liked to have seen more, but I'm happy with what we got. Yeah, me too. Me too. And interestingly, we had the confirmation that all of these characters here are going to appear in Avengers Doomsday coming up in the next couple of years. So that's quite interesting. I will also say that unfortunately, the only character that wasn't mentioned was Taskmaster. So I did kind of know that Taskmaster wasn't going to be appearing, wasn't going to be appearing after this movie and was probably going to die in this movie. Yeah. So I just didn't probably expect it happening that early.

[01:00:32] I thought some were going to get sacrificed. In fact, I'll let you in on a little thing. This week, everybody who's seen previews of the movie and all the reviews that were coming out, because I tend to look at those, were all saying how brilliant Florence Pugh was in the movie, that she's the heart of the movie. She's amazing in it, which made me think going into the movie that Florence Pugh was going to die in this movie. So I was so happy that she lived at the end. And the reason everybody was saying she's great is just because she's great. She is. But it's also a good ensemble movie. It is.

[01:01:02] Like, I really am so pleased that it has, you know, the new Avengers will return and Bob. Like, such a great character. And you can see, you know, some disruption happening where, you know, the Sentry and the Void are back. Yeah. And I'm kind of there for that, actually. As well as, I guess, the team up that is Thunderbolts, which I think means we should go on to our bullet point four,

[01:01:32] which is what was the asterisk for after Thunderbolts? We kind of just mentioned it. We have, indeed. It is the new Avengers, but it's the twist on it. It's how it's revealed is effectively that Valentina has set up the press to either reveal Sentry has killed the evil Thunderbolts, or now her wonderful new Avengers, which is the team that she definitely created, have ended the disruption to New York caused by the Void, the bad guy.

[01:02:01] And they are now the new Avengers who will be the new heroes taking over from the old Avengers. So that's the big twist on it, is that they didn't even know that they were a team being set up by Valentina. Neither did Valentina. She was just adaptable. She knew. Because I did like the way she's on the phone. Look, she sees them. It looks like she's trying to escape through, and it brings them through into this full press thing. Yeah.

[01:02:29] And they're announced as the new Avengers. But I do like the lean in from Yelena who says, we own you now because we know what really went down, what you were really trying to achieve. And we know all your dirty secrets. And in fact, we are them, you know? So I really like that lean in to say we own you. Yeah, me too. And what a great way to finish the movie. It's kind of sad because everybody's seen the Asterix.

[01:02:59] So for months, everybody's been going, just tell us what the Asterix is. Yeah, yeah. But that is the end of the movie. You have to watch through the movie to get to the point why they're revealed as the new Avengers. The fact that it is a bit of a joke still. They aren't the new Avengers. If the movie had been called the new Avengers, everybody would be going in thinking it was an Avengers movie. Exactly. But the fact that it's revealed at the end that it's another plot or another plan, the Valentina's, to get them all together. And for her to be in control of superheroes, which she isn't at the end of the movie.

[01:03:26] But I love that the credit sequence afterwards, the usual credit sequence afterwards, is effectively newspaper headlines. So people going, these are the Avengers? What are you talking about? So it's all a good joke going through the credits. It's that the world has been told that these are the Avengers, but nobody really believes they are. Which I think does bring us to our final bullet point. Bullet point number five, the post-credit scenes.

[01:03:51] Well, we do have a mid-credit, and that amplifies what the headlines are saying, where you have Alexei in the supermarket kind of trying to promote this box of cereal to a shopper, because it's got them all on the front of the box of cereal. It's hilarious. David Harbour is so funny in this scene. It is so good.

[01:04:14] And the shopper's really good, how she actually leaves, she just puts it on a random part of the shelf, not even back. But it's just because he keeps pointing at his face and the box of Wheaties to go like, look, I'm on the box of Wheaties. And she's not bothered. Exactly. I think he mentioned it earlier on that that would be the sign for success. He wants to be the superhero on the box of Wheaties. We don't have Wheaties over here, but in the US, this is where your big famous sports stars would be on the box of cereal to advertise it.

[01:04:44] So Michael Jordan would have been on a box of cereal when he was massively popular. So this is the measure of success that Alexei has. If I make it to the front of a cereal box, then I am an amazing superhero for America. It's a nice little form mid-credit. Just before, I guess, the extravaganza of post-credit scenes. Because it is. It's a good three minutes or so long.

[01:05:09] And you have the riff still being played out about, well, Sam Wilson's not very happy that we're the new Avengers. Obviously, we must be the new Avengers, though, because we were announced officially by Valentina. And she has the authority to do this. But there's this whole sort of threat that it's going to be taken away from them. And then...

[01:05:36] Well, yeah, because the last scene back in Brave New World was Sam Wilson saying, I'm setting up the Avengers. The Falcon is going to be part of it. He's going to be part of it. And he'll lead it. And he'll choose his team. And then he learns that his friend, sort of, Bucky, is on another team who's been announced to the Avengers. So I kind of like that. Yeah, me too. I suppose in the meta idea, we also know there's massive Avengers movies coming. And the cast lists that have been announced for the Avengers are absolutely huge.

[01:06:05] So I love the idea that there's multiple Avengers teams. And I know we joked about it earlier on. But even in the comic books, there's West Coast Avengers. There's Great Lakes Avengers. There's loads of Avengers teams. Young Avengers. Exactly. Geriatric Avengers. Probably geriatric Avengers as well. Yeah. But I love that there's loads of different Avengers teams. And here we're already starting out going into Avengers season because Avengers Doomsday has started filming this week with two Avengers teams. You know, it's kind of interesting. Yeah, no, it is. It's really good.

[01:06:33] But the other thing that we do get is this news report of an extra dimensional ship having arrived into orbit around Earth. And as they kind of focus in on it, you have the Fantastic Four symbol sort of on the side of the ship, which is really good.

[01:06:55] Because as I'm saying at the start, just before the movie, the trailers, one of the trailers was the Fantastic Four movie that's coming up this year. So, yeah, July, really close. So, really excited for that. And I like just then how it tied in at the end with this post-credits scene. Yeah. Yeah, it was really cool. Because it also provided some information that everybody's been speculating about, that the Fantastic Four doesn't take place in the normal MCU world.

[01:07:24] That's why it looks so different to what we've seen in the MCU. That's why nobody knows of the Fantastic Four who would have been the superpowers of the 60s. Well, if they'd been around and they were as big as they are, then everybody in the world would know that they existed, right? We would have been talking about them for the last 17 years. It leads into this idea of the multiverse, multidimensions, but also then the incursions of different universes into other universes.

[01:07:50] It links to the marvels with the portals and breaking that space-time. So, you know, this is all starting to knit, dare I say it, together. It does. And it's been quite slow. It's been quite laborious, I think, for me. But I'm really pleased to see that. What's kept it alive for me is the stuff through the Doctor Strange thread. Right, yeah. With the incursion, with Clay, that post-credits scene.

[01:08:18] And this is where I see, you know, that consistency coming through. Yeah. And I'm really pleased that, you know, this post-credits scene is effectively, you know, it's flagging up something that's going to be out in July. That's what I mean. That's that relevance element. Yeah. It's just to remember the old days of the MCU where it was the post-credits scene was directed by the director of the next movie and the next movie would be coming out in 12 months' time. Exactly.

[01:08:44] You know, or six months or whatever it was at the time, it was always very specific to the movie that was coming up. You know, when's Harry Styles coming back to the MCU to play Thanos' brother? Which we saw in a post-credits scene nine years ago or eight years ago. I don't think that's ever going to happen. You know, there are post-credits that have been intended to lead on to something that never happened, which is kind of frustrating when you're following them. This is a really good post-credits scene for something that's happening really soon.

[01:09:13] They do mention some things about other upcoming projects in their discussion. You hear Yelena saying that they're being blocked out of the things that are going on out in space, which we don't know about at the moment. So we presume we'll see some of those in maybe the Fantastic Four, but maybe another movie in the future. It seems to have had a bit of time has passed to get to this post-credits scene. Everybody's looking pretty cool. Bucky's let his hair grow out. Now looks like the current version of Bucky in the comic books.

[01:09:41] He's got that really cool outfit and his awesome very long hair. Yes. John's motioning the flick of Bucky's hair. But they may also be wearing brand new branded Avengers with a Zed pajamas or costume designed by Alexei, which I also think was quite funny. It was funny. Yeah, definitely. Also because they don't mention it, but you just see the amount of brands that are all over it. It looks like a Formula One costume. Yeah, no, exactly. Costumes? You could even call them costumes.

[01:10:11] Or a cereal box. Well, exactly. A branded wearable cereal box. Yeah. Great fun. With no cereals in it. No cereals in it. Maybe some nuts. I just got that. Is there anything else about the movie we want to talk about, John, before we crack on to close out the podcast? No, I think that's all for me. I think just really, you know, I just enjoyed the ride of this movie.

[01:10:40] It had a whole, it had fun, it had drama, it had a lightness, it had a darkness and a heaviness to it. And I just thought it actually balanced really nicely. I enjoyed the post-credits scenes. It just felt like it threw off the shackles of Kang and what's happened around that by having the Fantastic Four, in a sense, bookend this. It felt like it had a place of purpose.

[01:11:10] And there's some Marvel movies that I've questioned that increasingly because of the time to concept of what was being done in those, you know? Yeah. Like, I can see it now, absolutely. But you kind of, you know, I just say, it's not happening in a while where it's like, here's the post-credits scene done by the director of the next movie. And the next movie is out in a year's time.

[01:11:38] In this case, it's much shorter, but that's, again, because of these scheduling difficulties that have happened. So I just, I liked this movie a lot, you know? Yeah. Love it when a plan comes together and this feels like... I felt more like my overview of it. Yeah. But in that sense, I would give this, you know, four stretched red limos out of five. Very good, John. Very good. But I have no notes. No notes. No notes.

[01:12:07] I just wanted to mention, because we didn't really mention it, that Avengers Tower is looking pretty cool as the new home of the Thunderbolts. The new Avengers? The new Avengers. Sorry, of course, the new Avengers Tower. So it's going to have a big N on the outside of it instead of an A. But I do like that the opening sequence of them coming into the building has Valentina standing behind the bar where Tony Stark was behind the bar when Loki arrived in the Avengers Tower. So a nice little nod back to the original Avengers movie.

[01:12:37] So kind of cool to see it being used again, because it's been in the background. It is a massive building in New York to not be used. So kind of cool that they get to give it to the new Avengers. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, we just need the Baxter building now for Reed Richards and co. And the A.K.A. Fantastic Four. Yeah, yeah. That would be kind of cool. That would be also on there. Maybe they'll take over the building from the new Avengers. Yes, indeed. Hang on a second. That's our building.

[01:13:06] Well, we'll see that in July. Great stuff. But Derek, do you defend the Thunderbolts Asterix? I absolutely defend this movie. I had a lot of fun in the cinema watching it. I think the central message was really, really good. Just, you know, it's kind of the you'll get by with a little help from your friends is the central concept. But I love that idea. I love that we have all of them in stages of depression in various ways. All feeling alone.

[01:13:36] And then they all come together to save Bob and end off saving themselves and becoming a team. I think that's a cool movie to have in the MCU. I think they've done a great job. So I've been thinking about it for the last three days since we watched the movie. Things keep popping into my head that I laughed about and enjoyed. So that's a really good sign for me as well. It's not just that we walked out of the cinema and went, okay. It's also been percolating in my mind and getting better the more I think back on how good it was. Yeah. So I'm really looking forward to seeing again. Definitely defend it.

[01:14:05] Really enjoyed it. I know you've already given your score, John. But do you defend the movie? I absolutely do defend Thunderbolts Asterix. As I say, I give this four stretched red limos out of five. I just really enjoyed the pattern of this movie. It felt quick. I really didn't feel anything drag. I loved the central dynamic between this team.

[01:14:32] Both initially where they're suspicious of one another, where they're effectively trying to kill one another. That sort of initial teamwork of trying to get out of the furnace. And back to the surface was really good. I loved Alexei and Bucky Barnes being involved. Just, as you say, the whole concept around Bob, the sentry, the void.

[01:14:58] That triptych of, you know, having a superhero that can switch because of the peaks and troughs of their condition was really, really good. But I just think how they all work together, whether it was in a light jokey way, a more serious way, really good.

[01:15:23] And I like the kind of end bit as well where Bob is in the armchair up there saying, well, I've done the dishes and all that. Because he can't be sentry. Because he can't be sentry. But they're still letting them live there. But they're letting him be a part of the team. And I just really like the whole sort of vibe of this.

[01:15:41] Like Valentina Allegra de Fontaine, I just adore, loved her being kind of that central sort of bad guy that ultimately is still there, still going, still doing her crooked work. Just really enjoyed that. So, yeah, for me, absolutely defend Thunderbolts. Asterix. And it's four stretch red limos out of five for me. Excellent. And you've just reminded me of something we said back in December, which I want to recount.

[01:16:08] When we saw the episode of What If that had David Harbour and Sebastian Stan in it, we said we hoped that the two of them got together. And if they got together and had the same kind of banter that we saw on screen in that episode of What If, Thunderbolts would be great. Yeah. We were right. Yeah, absolutely. So we do have a couple of moments of the two of them bouncing off each other in this movie. And they were great. Yeah, definitely. So sometimes we get things right with our predictions for the future. Will we see what our wonderful fellow defenders have to say, John? Absolutely. Yes. The feedback section.

[01:16:38] First up, we have some feedback from Heather Wallace, who says, Hi, Derek, Chris, and John. I'm really looking forward to hearing your thoughts on Thunderbolts. Asterixx. I felt great anticipation, and it lived up to that for me. I love this approach to building an ensemble film, letting us meet the characters in other projects first, just like in Phase 1 of the MCU. I don't know if audience who haven't seen Black Widow or Falcon and the Winter Soldier would feel the same connection.

[01:17:06] I did, but maybe this will encourage them to watch those stories. There was so much love in this. Elena and Alexei's relationship, Val being deliciously Machiavellian, and Bucky on a motorbike. I've always found Bucky to be objectively good looking. But it wasn't until this Terminator-type appearance that I went, yep, I get this now.

[01:17:30] He didn't have a whole lot to do, probably because Sebastian Stan is in so many other projects just now. Are he and Pedro Pascal just dividing up all the roles these days? But he was also really funny. I loved all the stuff with his arm from it being in the dishwasher. Oh, my goodness. Yes. That was hilarious. Dishwasher arm to how casually he reached out his other hand to Ava to get it back.

[01:17:59] I also liked his deadpan reaction to coming through the shame rooms. I'm fine. I have a great past. Indeed. Indeed. Yeah. So good. I also, as well, I liked how John Walker's shield gets sort of created into sort of this pointy piece of metal just bent by a century as well. Someone calls it a tacker. Yeah, it does. Yeah, it looks really good.

[01:18:25] But Heather continues, Falcon and Winter Soldier was about Bucky coming to terms with his past that we didn't need to see it again this time around. It left the stage for Yelena and Florence Pugh was magnificent. Her depiction of grief and depression was so accurate. You're not necessarily crying all the time when grief overwhelms you.

[01:18:45] There can be an utter emptiness that subsumes you and stops you connecting to the very people you need to come through it because you don't want to drag them into the void. Yelena is saying to Alexei, Daddy, I needed you. Broke my heart. Oh, yeah. Marvel has depicted grief in other stories with the Scarlet Witch and Agatha Harkness, but the reactions of those characters to lash out at the world just made me so angry. Both characters were so selfish.

[01:19:15] I watched Scarlet Witch at the time of my own despair and just thought I might be grief stricken and bad company, but at least I'm not murdering people. Yelena's torment was much more relatable because it was turned inward. I'm excited for the next phase of the MCU and I can't wait to see where they go with the new Avengers. Although John Walker is still pretty unlikable, but Alexei makes up for him in buckets. Cheers for listening to my thoughts. Heather.

[01:19:45] Thanks, Heather. Great stuff, Heather. Really glad you enjoyed this. Yeah. Myself also, and I think you're right. These depictions, as I said, at the start you have that grief of Yelena and it kind of flows through to all of the other members of the Thunderbolts. And, you know, I think ultimately, you know, being depicted in stark terms by the Void. I just thought it was really good.

[01:20:14] I mean, even like, you know, I think, as you said, Ghost did really well here. I want to see more of that character. You know, again, not massive part here, but integral to that team. And I just really liked it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Really good email. Thanks so much for sending in your thoughts, Heather. And sorry for your loss as well. Absolutely. Thanks, Heather. We also got an email in from Coffee and Vodka with his thoughts on Thunderbolts. Asterix. Greetings, fellow shadow flattened defenders.

[01:20:43] With a few exceptions, a five rating to me applies to any production that sweeps you up and takes you away with an airtight script slash plot and as little boardroom interference or excessive artistic license as possible. Which would make Robocop the superhero gold standard. With Thunderbolts, what we got was a semi-exploration of depression and bipolar disorder with a side of fun and future feature setup. On the positive side, it was a solid enough story with all the humor and action you'd want. On the negative, it removed all stakes as soon as it could.

[01:21:13] I mean, avoiding out a little girl took some guts, bringing her back. Not so much. As for killing off Taskmaster, they may have well run a short chyron saying, You're welcome, viewer, for all the negative reviews of her character after her appearance in Black Widow. Mostly good, but not much of a swept up factor despite some stellar performances. Florence Pugh, as usual, owns the screen. In short, it was better than Cat 4, most likely not as good as FF First Steps, and a bit distant from the Five Club, but still a passable watch. Hope you enjoyed the popcorn.

[01:21:40] 3.75 fantastic foreshadowings, wash and wear arms, and improv molotovs out of five. Peace and take care. Coffee and vodka. Excellent stuff, coffee and vodka. I did enjoy the popcorn, actually, as well as some Maltesers, whilst watching this in the cinema. I got my one. I'm wondering whether Bucky washes his arms with finish, or whether it's just a supermarket-owned brand in the dishwasher.

[01:22:09] Other dishwasher soap that are available. Yeah, exactly. We aren't sponsored by dishwasher soap. I do love it, though. You know, it is fully versatile, able to be washed in your dishwasher. What are you going to do if you have a metal arm and you get some food caught in it? You know, you don't have to wash it out somehow. Well, I guess so, but he doesn't eat with it, so he's more likely to get food caught in it from the dishwasher, unless he keeps that dishwasher so spankingly clean. I suspect he does. Or a dedicated arm dishwasher. Maybe it is.

[01:22:38] Maybe he has two dishes. Maybe as we get older, if we get sort of false teeth, we'd put them in the dishwasher. I don't think people do that. Put Sterodent in. I don't know. Something like that. I don't know. Yeah. I'm thinking, what's the alternative? But, yeah, great stuff. I'm glad you enjoyed it, Coffee and Vodka. I think, like myself, it was a good, good watch, for sure. Fun. So thanks for your thoughts, Coffee and Vodka, as always.

[01:23:08] Yeah, I don't think it's a five out of five movie. No, I don't think so. Not every movie needs to be. It was fun. It was a good trip to the cinema. I really enjoyed it. I hope more people are going to go and see it. Yeah, me too. Me too. Definitely. We pop on over to Facebook, John. Have a look at our Facebook group at facebook.com slash group slash TV podcast industry. You've got some feedback up there. Yes. First up, Mathematician says, Florence Pugh was a joy on screen. She's now a proven lead, in my opinion. Her banter with Harbour was a lot of fun, and there were several laugh out loud moments

[01:23:38] in my screening. Bucky was cool as ever, if a little underused, and Walker and Ava have shown that there may well be a redeemable good side to them. Grounded action scenes were wonderful. The Thunderbolts footnote asterisk is explained. Interesting. And the second end credit scene drew a few audible gasps. Negatives for me were all related to the Bob character. I feel like Bucky's conversation with Sam in Captain Four should have revolved around

[01:24:06] him revealing he was doing his congressional duty by investigating a sentry program he's heard about being run by Val. Well, Bob's introduction all felt a bit sudden. His power set appears epic, and he will hopefully be a strong addition to the team if they can figure out how to suppress his voidy alter ego. The mental health aspects of depression and loneliness were explored, will resonate with a lot of people.

[01:24:32] And as somebody who is recently bereaved, it is so easy to see how people could end up constantly watching sitcoms and soaps in their underwear, ordering pizza off Just Eat for tea. It's okay from time to time, not judging anybody here. Of course, not mathematician. Overall, two hours of fun, laughs and action. Great character development for Yelena becoming a bona fide leader and an end credit scene that

[01:25:01] makes you want it to be late July already. Stark, Avengers, Thunderbolts Tower must be the most cursed building on the planet. This time destroyed by a falling crane, but great to feel a bit nostalgic at a lot of the action taking place at Grand Central Station's Perishing Square from Avengers Assemble fame. I loved the scene where de Fontaine shut down Congressman Gary with her wit and intelligence.

[01:25:28] Reminded me of the way Natasha shut down the politicians at Capitol Hill during the dissolution of S.H.I.E.L.D. hearing and how Stark did it at his hearing in Iron Man 2. One particular scene where the Bolts had to work together to climb an elevator shaft only to realise an enormous flaw in the plan when they were too far up to do anything about it was hilarious. Top class action adventure movie, two hours of great superhero fun,

[01:25:57] and I score it 4.8 boxes of Avengers Wheaties cereal out of five. Dave, good stuff, mathematician. Really pleased you enjoyed it. It was such good fun. Yeah, it really was. Such a great movie. Had something in it for everybody, I think. Really enjoyed it. I'm very sorry to hear about your bereavement, mathematician. Yeah. As you say, there is something in here for people who've gone through those experiences,

[01:26:24] and it's good to see it on the big screen in this kind of summer blockbuster movie. It's something that so many people go through and have to deal with on their own. So it's nice that people are able to have something like this and have it resonate with them on the big scale, because we all have to go through it, unfortunately. Yeah, indeed. Absolutely. Great stuff. Thanks, mathematician, for the feedback, as always. And yeah, really pleased you enjoyed this movie.

[01:26:51] We also got some feedback from Adrian Johnson, who says, Just finished watching it. I was pleasantly surprised. The MCU showing the importance of good mental health. Well done. Absolutely. Yeah. Great stuff. Thanks, Adrian. Yeah. Thanks, Adrian. And Philippe says,

[01:27:39] Great to see Ghost used well. Anne Florence was absolutely the standout. Five asterisks. That's hard to say. Five asterisks, the new stars. Yes. Excellent stuff, Philippe. Really glad you enjoyed it. I'm totally with you around Ghost, because it's such an interesting character. I just think there were some real great moments with Ghost,

[01:28:03] and a few nice sassy moments as well from Hannah John-Kamen as Ava Stark that I really liked, and how they worked into that team was so good. So totally with you around Ghost. I really want to see more of that character. I like the idea that John Walker and Ghost have this redemption a bit here, in the same way that the Black Widows have done, do you know, from The Red Room,

[01:28:31] in terms of what concept they were before being heroes. You know? Yeah. I think it's really good. It is really good, and I still like the fact they know that people don't like John Walker, and he plays the character that way, while Russell still plays the character as someone that everybody wants to punch in the face, but he's too strong to punch in the face. That's kind of how I see the character. Yeah. But I forgot to say, when Coffee and Vodka had mentioned about Taskmaster in Black Widow and all the criticism that Algo Kurilenko had gotten, that this was like the movie kind of going,

[01:29:01] there you go, fans. You didn't like her anyway, so we've killed her off. There are a lot of fans of the Taskmaster character, and they thought this was the only version of Taskmaster they'd get in the MCU. So I know there's actually going to be quite a few people that would be very sorry to see Taskmaster go, unfortunately. Yeah, I personally am a little disappointed that Taskmaster was just shot in the head and, you know, effectively done and dusted. Yeah.

[01:29:28] Because, you know, I enjoyed the Black Widow movie, and I thought Taskmaster was good in it. You got that reveal, and I thought, it's a bit like Ghost. You know, you'd get more of Taskmaster from this movie. So the fact that we really didn't see Taskmaster much at all and then shot and incinerated, then I guess we're not going to again. Yeah. You know, I almost thought that when you saw Algo Kurilenko's face

[01:29:58] underneath the mask of Taskmaster, that they'd just used the scene from Black Widow, that they hadn't even brought her on board to do the filming for the movie. But it kind of fits into the narrative of the movie itself, you know, and it's something that we didn't really mention. But sometimes the movie's talking directly to critics of the MCU. You hear Yelena kind of go, how the hell can we be a team? We're all just people that punch people in the face, and we all shoot guns. We're not really like the Avengers. We're not, you know, have unique disciplines, you know, which is a criticism of them all being together that I heard when the original cast was announced.

[01:30:28] Everybody going, well, why would these be a team-up? Because they're all people that use guns. Well, it turns out that they're just funny people putting a room together, and that's what you want with a movie. You get good actors together like this, and you get them to play around and have a bit of fun on screen, and it's always fun to watch. So great stuff. Just want to mention, Philippe Bates, Larry, you also got spoiled exactly the same way that I did. I saw Michael Guillencano's theme for Fantastic Four. Just mentioned in the soundtrack, it's something I always look at,

[01:30:56] is the songs in the soundtrack when I'm looking at the credits. And yeah, it got spoiled. I was like, oh, great, we're going to get a scene from Fantastic Four coming up. But anyway, still a delightful scene. Don't mind too much about that kind of spoiler when you're in the cinema and not have to wait six months knowing about it. We also have some feedback in from Salim Akisler, who says, am I the only one who thought I heard Yelena say Oscorp on that opening mission? Of course, I know now she's saying Ox Group,

[01:31:25] or whatever was the name of Val's organisation. I may have been wishful thinking. Great movie, lots of hearts, solid story, entertaining villain, very funny, good setups for future films. I'm wondering if killing Taskmaster early on was the first step in the MCU, giving us an Anthony Masters somewhere down the line. Also, who is on Sam's team? Joaquim, Ruth, Thor, and what the hell went down between Sam and Bucky?

[01:31:55] Thanks so much, Salim, for the feedback. I know a few other commenters also thought that Valentina was saying Oscorp as well. Yeah, we paused the podcast because we couldn't remember what they said in the movie. We thought it was really important and then looked it up, and it was OXE was the name of the company, which is connected to Ox Group, as Salim said there. But I was going, sure they said something different when we saw it in the cinema. I'm sure it was something more important,

[01:32:24] and I thought in my own head, I must have thought it was Oscorp as well. So a connection to Spider-Man and Norman Osborn, which would have been really interesting. Yeah, that would have been very, very interesting. We'll have to watch it again when we go and see it and just take a note and see if they did say Oscorp or changed it. And I really like your note. I think that's really intriguing. You know, what has happened between Sam and Bucky? Bucky's there in the end credit scene as part of the new Avengers. Yeah. Yet, yeah, you're right.

[01:32:52] You know, he's got that pre-relationship with Sam from the original Avengers. And we saw the two of them in Brave New World, and Sam was kind of going, Bucky, you're my best friend. You know, they've sorted out all the differences. They're best of friends according to that movie, and then here we are four or five months later, and Sam's going, what the hell are you doing joining the new Avengers and is pissed off at Bucky, it seems. I guess so. I mean, it's kind of one of those things where you're suddenly in a situation where you can't quite get out of, and maybe that's what Bucky is.

[01:33:22] That's where he lies at the moment. Maybe he will be the glue that binds the two Avengers groups together. Yeah, maybe that's it. Maybe he's the one that gets them all on the same side and they all come together, the Avengers for Doomsday. Yeah, absolutely. Thanks so much, Salim. Absolutely. Thanks, Salim. Brilliant stuff. Thanks so much for everybody for your feedback that you've sent in to us. If you want to send in your thoughts about Thunderbolts, even though we have finished the podcast, we'd love to hear from you. You can email us to feedback at tvpodcastindustries.com

[01:33:51] or we can all chat over in our Facebook group at facebook.com slash groups slash tvpodcastindustries. There's a spoiler post up there for Thunderbolts asterisk if you want to leave your thoughts in there. Absolutely. And of course, fellow defenders, thank you for sharing your theories and observations. You can support the podcast through patreon.com forward slash tvpodcastindustries or buymeacoffee.com forward slash tvpi. But of course, you can also support us by sharing the podcast

[01:34:21] because sharing the podcast is, of course, sharing the love. Indeed. And giving everybody a big hug. Indeed. Indeed. We will be back with more movies in the form of The Fantastic Four coming up in July. That's right. Yes, yes. Can't wait for that. And we've got so much more Marvel to come this year. There's really lots coming up. We've got Ironheart coming up in just under two months as well. Yeah, exactly. Really interested in that. Yeah.

[01:34:51] And then, of course, as John said, we've got Fantastic Four coming up in July. Right now, on the main feed on tvpodcastindustries.com, we are covering The Last of Us Season 2. Really interesting and very depressing show at times as well. Great, though. But really good. Superb. Yeah. With the traditional HBO quality production and writing and acting. And they're fantastic. Looking forward to the next episode coming out this week. And you can find that over on TV Podcast Industries as well, our podcast all about that. Thanks so much for joining us.

[01:35:21] We will talk to you again next time. Yes. Thanks so much for joining us as we discussed Thunderbolts Asterix. Until the next movie, keep watching, keep listening, and of course, keep defending. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye.