Ironheart Episode 5

[00:00:00] This is The Defenders on TV Podcast Industries and we're talking about Ironheart Episode 5, Calm as a Glitch. It is my job to make you feel safe, not the other way around. Do you hear me? I hear you, Mom. But this is so much bigger than you. Without that suit, I can't protect us and that is why we need to leave now.

[00:00:31] You know how when people can sense danger, they either fight, fly or freeze? Maybe you have flown, you have frozen, but you haven't tried fighting. My fights get people hurt. Riri, there are some demons we just can't outrun. But you don't have to fight alone. I'm here to help. I'll fight them with you. Me too. Sorry, my bad. My bad.

[00:01:20] Welcome back, fellow Defenders, to this episode of The Defenders on TV Podcast Industries. We are talking about Ironheart Episode 5, Calm as a Glitch. The penultimate episode for this season of Ironheart. And I am one of your hosts, John. I am your other host, Derek. Yes, second to last episode. Certainly is. All anybody wants to talk about is the last episode. I know. But we'll get there. We'll get there.

[00:01:50] We certainly will. We're going to talk about the penultimate episode, as we've been talking about each individual episode throughout the season so far. Just going to talk about Episode 5 this time. Not going to talk about Episode 6 at all. No, we'll pretend what happens in Episode 6 hasn't happened yet. Yes. At least for us. And for our wonderful fellow Defenders, thank you so much again for joining us. If you are just joining the podcast, please head on over to our website at tvpodcastindustries.com,

[00:02:16] where you can subscribe on any good or evil podcast catcher of your choice. And, of course, you can get in contact with us over there with feedback at tvpodcastindustries.com, or you can head on over to our Facebook group at facebook.com forward slash groups forward slash tvpodcastindustries. Please get in contact with your thoughts, theories, observations, and comments on all things to do with Ironheart Episode 5,

[00:02:45] and indeed the whole season. There is also our MIT student pub quiz there as well. So, fellow Defenders and fellow Quizzers, you can check out the questions for each episode of Ironheart, and please be sure to send in all your answers to us at feedback at tvpodcastindustries.com. At the end of the season when all six questions have been revealed.

[00:03:14] Absolutely, yeah, question five coming up later in the episode of question six, of course, coming on the episode six podcast. And, in case you don't know, we're going on a way on holidays for two weeks, so that gives you two weeks to get all the answers into us, and we'll do our wrap-up of the Ironheart show in a podcast in two weeks' time, along with announcing the winner of the pub quiz. So you've got a little bit of time to get in your answers and any feedback that you haven't had a chance to do for Ironheart. So you have a little bit of time to send that into us. We should be recording that the week of the 21st of July.

[00:03:43] So, after we get back, sunburned and happy, I suppose. Exactly, exactly. But let us get into our spoiler-filled discussion of episode five of Ironheart, Calm as a Glitch. What a great title. It's great, isn't it? Yep. Absolutely. Derek, fire away with some of the episode details. Sure. Well, the character, of course, created by Brian Michael Vandas and by Mike DiDatio in 2016. The executive producers of the show are Kevin Feige, Luis Desposito, Brad Winterbaum,

[00:04:13] Zoe Nagelouch, Shanaka Hodge, Ryan Coogler, Sev Ohanian, and Jinji Coogler. The head writer for the show is Shanaka Hodge, and the episode is directed by Angela Barnes, who directed episode four, five, and six of the show. This episode was written by Christian Martinez, not the Panamanian footballer Christian. He's a relatively new writer with credits on TV shows, including Women of the Movement and Good Trouble as well. So, nice to have Christian on board for this episode. Absolutely. Good stuff.

[00:04:41] John, do you want to tell us what they gave us with your synopsis for Ironheart, season one, episode five, Calm as a Glitch? Sure. Riri meets up with Zelma, who believes that the hood is possessed with the dark energy that came from Dormammu. As they discuss what to do, the blood siblings arrive to kill Riri, but she fends them off after sending Zelma away. After capturing them in her protective watch, Clown arrives, and while battling her, Riri tells her that John killed Rampage, before

[00:05:09] Natalie helps Riri escape from both Clown and Slug with the suit. Still hurt that Riri considered deleting her, Natalie turns itself off, as Riri is attacked by Ezekiel's stain. Now enhanced with bionic implants that emit electricity, he dismantles Riri's suit, but spurs her life, advising her to leave the city instead. Back at her apartment, Riri asks her mother for help, but Ronnie confronts her about her

[00:05:37] obsession with her suit. Riri admits that she made the suit that could have helped save Natalie and Gary when they were killed. Ronnie manages to persuade Riri to stop running from her problems and to stay in Chicago and fight. She is joined by Landon, Xavier, and a returning Natalie, who help Riri build a new suit in Gary's garage, using the old car he and Riri were working on before he died. But the suit

[00:06:04] needs something extra to beat the hood, and Zelma helps empower it with magic to resist Parker's powers. But it comes at a cost of Natalie's permanent deletion. Back at Desperitos, Ezekiel and Clown lie to Parker about Riri's death, with Ezekiel rejecting Parker's proposal to join the crew full-time. Meanwhile, Clown helps the crew discover Rampage's

[00:06:28] fabricated autopsy, and they accuse Parker of having killed him. Believing they have all turned on him, Parker fires all of them in anger, which causes the hood's corruption to increase through his body. As Ezekiel is about to leave town, Parker takes control of his bionic enhancements, and forces him to help him break into the home of his estranged father, Arthur Robbins. Parker forces him to sign over his wealth and company to him as recompense for throwing him

[00:06:58] onto the street as a child. Taking his seat at the head of his father's empire, the corruption grows further across Parker's body. Well, the one thing I'll say about this episode is it's definitely action-packed, isn't it? Very much so. Like, the synopsis is basically they punch here, they punch there, they punch everywhere, they fight, they battle, they talk, then they fight again. You know, there's lots of action going on in this episode, certainly.

[00:07:24] It's all at the White Castle. Well, to begin with, yes, there is other fighting as well. There certainly is. But we start there. Good old slugfest. Slugfest. Yes, yeah. But yeah, let us get into our top five case notes for this episode. First up, case note number one. Riri and Zelma go to the White Castle. Yes, I couldn't resist. There's a movie called, over here, Harold and Kumar get the munchies, which in the US was called Harold and Kumar go to White Castle.

[00:07:53] So I couldn't resist calling this one Riri and Zelma go to White Castle. Because we had the unbelievable product placement of McDonald's in Loki season two, which really annoyed me. And I realize it's probably more to do with McDonald's than it was to do with the product placement itself, because this definitely has more product placement in White Castle. But I think because it's from a movie and we don't have White Castles in Ireland, we have no idea what that product is. It doesn't feel like product placement.

[00:08:22] It's just weird that we even have Riri going, I like being here. This is my favorite place to eat. You know, it sounds like she is promoting White Castle, but it doesn't feel like she is because we can't go out there and buy a burger. Absolutely. Or some of those nice fries that they have. Absolutely. Crinkle cut chips. Yeah. I haven't seen those in years. I know. We used to have a special thing to do, crinkle cut chips. Yeah. As a kid. Yeah, one of the utensils in the drawer, wasn't it? Yeah, gorgeous. Crinkle cut. And they stick them in the deep fat fryer.

[00:08:51] And I love crinkle cut crisps, actually. There you go. So, will we get down to the chat that's happening between Riri and Zelma at White Castle? Yeah. I mean, it's just good to have Zelma back. I'm really pleased that she's in here again after her being introduced there in Episode 4. So, that's just from, you know, first off, I think that's just really good that she's immediately back in here at the start of Episode 5.

[00:09:23] Yeah. And everything about this. I mean, it is almost as though Riri has been in a bubble and hasn't understood some of the stuff that may have happened in the Doctor Strange movies. Yeah. Certainly the first one with all the, well, okay, it was all in the mirror dimension, so no one actually saw it. Yes. Although Zelma is literally recapping the entire premise of the Doctor Who movie. She talks about Caecilius.

[00:09:51] I do find it odd, though, that she's there in the MCU. These characters are in the MCU. It's on Disney+, all owned by the same company. And I find it odd that Zelma has just drawn all this stuff by hand rather than having any form of photographs. I guess, as you say, all of this stuff took place in the mirror dimension, so she may not have had photographs. But she is able to draw pictures of Caecilius with his purple eyes, which was caused by him siphoning energy from Dormammu's dimension.

[00:10:21] So she's effectively making that connection between what's happening with Parker and the Hood, him getting the corruption through his body, and Caecilius getting the corruption in his eyes. And all of the other acolytes of Dormammu getting that corruption into them. So it's a cool connection to make, but interesting that we didn't have any flashbacks or clips from Doctor Strange. And here we just have Zelma saying it.

[00:10:43] She says she's been doing research, but it's almost as though Riri is being introduced to the magic here. And the world of magic in the MCU and her world. You know, Zelma does say, you know, it's probably using Parker as a puppet because, you know, Riri is going, yeah, but why Parker? And it's like, it doesn't matter.

[00:11:10] It's just Parker is a puppet. Easily malleable, yeah. Easy to manipulate, malleable. And, you know, his goals of what he wants are in line and easy to corrupt in a sense. But I do like here that we have Zelma really picking up a very big thing around the use of magic in Marvel.

[00:11:36] In particular, in the comics, it's been less talked about in the Doctor Strange movies. And I think really this is the first main or the first moment of dealing with the fact that magic has a cost. So you have Zelma saying, you know, we're dealing with magic now and it comes with a price.

[00:11:57] You can get that sense of magic having a price through Doctor Strange's loss of Christine Palmer in terms of her affection, her love, as we saw through what if and so on. So, you know, it's an important point because it comes to play later on in this episode as they build the magical orientated Ironheart suit at this stage.

[00:12:25] Yeah, I'm not sure if this is the first mention of the MCU, but I definitely remember when we were talking about the comics, it was mentioned to almost every single issue. Magic has a price. It was like this just iterating every time that this amount of power that they use to channel this, the powerful magic that they're using will always cost something. And that cost, you don't know what it's going to be. So great to have it spelled out quite clearly here from Zelma.

[00:12:50] One of the things I also like a little reference, I think, to the next upcoming Marvel movie. When Riri asks Zelma, what is it that Dormammu might want? And she goes, to get back to Earth, maybe? But why would he want to come back to Earth? I don't know, to eat it? What she says. Which is Galactus. We're going to see him in Fantastic Four next month. And that's what his job is, to come and eat planets. Yummy Earth.

[00:13:13] Imagine the flavors of like a billion different forms of meat and fruit and veg and, well, I guess humans. Oh, well, maybe not. And soil. And soil. Yum. Okay. Yum, yum. Yum, yum. Yes. But, I mean, their kind of getting to know one another is kind of rudely interrupted here by Parker's team. Because he has sent them out for her head. God, they're very willing to just go out and kill a member of their team. No, they certainly are.

[00:13:42] I think the other thing that just kind of made me chuckle a little was, and I know that Riri does tell Zelma to go because she can handle it. But I thought there was going to be a real good team up here. Yeah. Yeah. Of Zelma using her magic and Riri using her smarts to sort of fight off the blood siblings. But Zelma kind of just gets up and leaves. And I was like, well, okay, there's smarts in that, I guess. There is.

[00:14:10] But, so, I kind of wish that that may have happened, but I get it. It just requires more budgets, I guess, to do all the magical stuff. But, I did kind of want to see it, though. You're right. Just a little moment of a magic fight, an attack fight. But, thankfully, what they do do here with Riri, and I think we mentioned this earlier on in the season, about some little touches of her not being used very smartly. We mentioned this about her finding the key under the mat last episode.

[00:14:39] Here we see her using her smarts to beat two very formidable foes in the blood siblings. When they arrive and they're having the fight with her, you can see her dodging. You can see her using everything around her to fight against two people who are trying to punch and kick her, basically. So, I thought that was really well done. The actual way that she's fighting, her style of fighting, is using her brains rather than just using... She's very small as well. She's only five foot two or five foot three.

[00:15:05] So, using all of the things around her, I definitely thought those automatic burger flippers that were in the back. Yeah. I thought she was going to use those because they reminded me of Tony Stark's, you know, the arms that he has in his... I thought so, too. Lab. And, I mean, she might be small, but she was using, you know, fire extinguishers and other sort of, like, gas cylinders. And so, you know, the fight in the kitchen with them was really, really cool. Yeah.

[00:15:32] But there were some hits which I was wondering whether they could actually survive, but nonetheless, they did. And she does manage to deal with them with her protective watch, which is a kind of nice, cool moment. And I do like how she kind of tricks them into sort of triggering it through effectively getting a shooter. Yeah. So, I kind of like that.

[00:15:57] And there's an interesting exchange between Riri and Ros and Jerry, the blood siblings. Yeah. Yeah. I kind of like this. Yeah. It's where Ros is threatening her saying tomorrow's headline is going to be rough. Girl genius dies. And Riri goes, my death won't even make the news. And they're like, ooh, that's pretty dark. You don't even have enough respect for yourself that local people would be interested in your death effectively. So, I thought that was quite an interesting exchange between them.

[00:16:26] They kind of realize that Riri's quite down on herself, despite everybody knowing who she is for her talents. But yeah, she gets the blood siblings trapped in that bubble, which was supposed to protect Xavier. I think that's the watch that she dropped to the floor, wasn't it? Yeah. But that's not the only person that's there. Clown arrives. And I love Clown. I love her ability with the bombs. And she just stands at the door and just sets one against the glass just to break the glass.

[00:16:54] She's not willing to just smash a window. She has to use an explosive to do it because that's her thing. Yeah. No, I really like this. Actually, I felt there was more of a menace here from Clown. Mm-hmm. Just having the pyrotechnics and the explosives here and having Riri pinned again back in the kitchen. Like, some parts of the fight, both with the blood siblings and with Clown, I thought were really good.

[00:17:22] I mean, there's one where, with the blood siblings, Riri sort of opens the stainless steel kind of cupboard door to protect her from being kicked by Roz. And then using it to smash her in the head to sort of knock her out and disable her for a brief moment. And I think here with Clown, there's a really good one where she uses one of the stainless steel trays to protect herself from one of the blasts.

[00:17:52] It just felt really, really good. And I liked how this all played out. But during this fight, you kind of have Riri, in a sense, sowing the seeds of doubt in Clown's mind over Parker Robbins as she talks about that Rampage was killed by John. That were all expendable and everybody that left the crew has been killed by John.

[00:18:19] I wonder if there's a bit more of a story to that that just got left out. So we saw Rampage in the first episode. We saw him disappearing and then we find out that he's getting killed. I do wonder if there are other members of the crew that were named in the past. Other members of the team that were, you know, like Rampage is only on the crew for a very short amount of time and failed in his mission and then gets killed. I wonder were there other people in the past that had also disappeared from the crew?

[00:18:46] Was there supposed to be a bigger story that, you know, Parker's killed five or six members of the crew in the past? Possibly. And they've just focused on one character here. Because she said that it's just the way that Riri says everybody's expendable here. He's killed other people and then focuses on Rampage. It's like as if he's done this multiple times before. Oh, yeah, definitely. Definitely. But ultimately, you know, here we have those seeds of doubt being sown. Yeah.

[00:19:13] And Clown, which comes out to play a bit later. Yeah. Yeah. One of the things I do really like in this conversation, I'm glad it's addressed by Clown. Because as I say, they do seem quite willing to go after and kill Riri. Just that the one mentioned that she killed John. And Clown's the one that had the problem with John. John almost killed Clown for taking the hood in an earlier episode. So Clown says, we did have our problems, but we were working through them.

[00:19:41] You know, she actually says it out loud that he wasn't her favorite person in the world, but you still shouldn't have killed him, basically. Yeah. So he was one of the family, one of the crew, effectively. So, yeah, and then Riri gets out of there by firing the fire extinguisher, knocking down Clown, who's holding a grenade in her hand. She has to escape from there pretty quickly, getting knocked out by the explosion as well. And that allows Riri to get outside.

[00:20:08] Now, this one I didn't really think was great. I know you need to have the whole crew coming down. It did feel a little bit like a comic book, but Riri running down the street as Slug, who's taken Natalie in the Ironheart suit, in the iron suit, put the iron suit in the back of the van and then drives down to White Castle with it in the back of the van to run over Riri, who's running down the middle of the road and could just turn to the right behind the cars that are all around them and not get knocked down by Slug.

[00:20:38] I don't know why she doesn't turn to the right. But the suit flies out of the back. Lands on Riri and then Riri does that cool punch down on the truck. It's kind of like that scene from the first episode of The Boys where Queen Maeve stands in front of the truck with the robbers in front of it and it crashes into her and surrounds her and explodes. So here we have Riri in the suit, smashing into the ground, crashing this truck. And then as it flips over her head, she flips it off, which is a really good one. Yeah, no, it was really good. I like that part of it for sure.

[00:21:08] But, yeah, no, it was a bit silly, her running down the road with the truck bearing down on her. And in fact, the truck scraping along the side of all the cars parked. Why is he bringing the suit to the White Castle? Why isn't he bringing it back to Parker? Wasn't that... Yeah, I don't know. The plan to steal it. We'll steal it and bring it back to Riri so that it can attach to her and she can fight back. But anyway, that's what happens. But yeah, each one of them taken down one at a time.

[00:21:37] But I think that means we can move on to our case note number two because there is another. It is Riri versus Ezekiel Stain. He is also in on this fight as well. Yeah. And actually, those bionic implants and enhancements are really quite powerful. Yes, they are. Like, he kind of takes down the suit pretty easily with his enhancements.

[00:22:06] I really enjoy as well that, you know, she says, what are you here for? And he goes, I'm here for you. As he points at it and you just get this filament of electrical energy going out towards it. It doesn't knock her off balance. It doesn't knock her out. It's not an aggressive move. It's just like it touches her. It's like an excess of light. Yeah, and it was just really... I thought that was a really classy sort of touch, to be honest.

[00:22:35] I kind of like how the whole fight starts. Basically, Natalie is in the suit. They have another argument because Natalie is really pissed off with the idea that Riri was about to delete her. He isn't even thinking of her as a person. And Natalie is saying, well, I was really hurt by the way that Xavier dealt with me. It's like, you're just lines of code. So she decides that she'll turn herself off. And Riri goes, yeah, fine. You're not needed anyway. Gets in the suit. Flies off. And two seconds later, she's falling out of the side going, come back, Natalie. Come back. Exactly.

[00:23:06] That was quite fun. But it's a good little fight here. Again, it's one of those ones where it's the build. You know, you have all the members of the crew. You know, some of them are good at fighting. Some of them are good at weapons. Slug's good at knocking people down with trucks, apparently. And then we have this one, which is almost, which is one-sided. Ezekiel is much more powerful than Riri, even in her Ironheart suit. Yeah. I mean, he dismantles the suit really comprehensively. I mean, the ripping out the spine bit.

[00:23:34] You know, taking off the helmet, opening it up, just sort of disabling it, really. And, but again, I like how this all plays out into kind of the complicated or a little bit messy relationship that they have. You know, in a sense, like, Riri is kind of a bit concerned. What have you done to yourself? You know, kind of where have you been? And then, in the end, you know, he does let her live.

[00:24:02] He gives her this advice to go out of town. It's like, yes, maybe he's on the path to being bad. But at the moment, it's not fully there. He's not fully on that route. He's not a murderer. No, exactly. And so he's like, you know, he gives her the advice to get out of Chicago because, you know, Parker is absolutely after her and wants to kill her. Yeah. And so, you know, just takes the helmet in order to have that as the trophy that is sent

[00:24:32] back to Parker at the restaurant. So I think I kind of like how that plays, just the kind of complicated nature of how they met, how, in a sense, you know, he got betrayed by her. Like, I think he knows it's not malicious. You know? Yeah. It wasn't intentional, but she has blown up the entire cover that he's been living under for the last 17 years.

[00:25:02] And that is, that's hurtful to him. But there's still that part of him that says, yeah, but I wouldn't kill you because of that. Exactly. Exactly. But this plays out as they go back to Parker with the helmet, as you say. And I kind of, again, I kind of like this idea that, you know, he's trying to lie to Parker to say that he hasn't killed Riri, he's let her go. But he's not filling any details. He just kind of says, yeah, yeah, I kind of had to destroy the suit to take her out and she died in there.

[00:25:29] And Parker instantly kind of goes, well, you know, the one thing I will say, if there's a story that's being told to me that's boring and doesn't have details, probably means it's not true. And asks. Yeah, the story lacks drama. Yeah. Which means it's not true. Exactly. And he asks Clown, who we saw in the background, seeing Riri get out of the suit and leave. Clown knows for a fact that Riri's alive.

[00:25:53] And Clown sticks up for Zeke and tells Parker the story in a little bit more detail, with a little bit more drama and a little bit more fun associated with it, saying that Zeke's the one that saved all their lives. They'd all be dead if it wasn't for him. And he buried her under cement. He buried Riri under cement. So Parker's now satisfied. She saves him from his own lie, really. And I think that was quite good.

[00:26:21] And later on, we see then her asking Slug to sort of look into these autopsy reports. So she's actioning the little bit of doubt that Riri placed in her mind here. So again, you know, I like how that, because Clown Riri of that group as well were quite close. So I like how that she has kind of listened to Riri here.

[00:26:48] She's not maybe 100% convinced, but she's convinced enough to sort of investigate it further. Well, you're right. Of everybody, Clown's the one that's wanted to know what's behind the hood. She's wanted to know where the power is coming from. She's the one that stole the hood from Parker's room. She was planning the whole time to get it out of the safe when he wasn't around. So she's always been a little bit suspicious of the hood and its impact on Parker.

[00:27:15] So it's good here that she's the one that's standing up for Ezekiel as well. Anything else about these two fights, John? No, I did. But really well done. I really enjoyed them. Yeah. It's good to have those standoffs when you set the characters up. You know, you do have one big bad here, of course, which is the hood. But it's good to have all of these characters up against each other in a Marvel show. Give them their moments. Give them their moments. Yeah. The only one I want to mention there is just when they're in the fight and the Ironheart

[00:27:44] suit falls from the sky onto the sign outside the White Castle. All that's left are the letters O-U-C-H and an exclamation point. So H. Really good. As she falls to the ground. It's a good little fun gag in there in the background as well. Yeah. Really good. Let us get on to our case note number three. Family. Yeah. Just one word. I kind of was referencing a bit of Fast and the Furious here because family is all important to everybody. But what we have here is two different sides.

[00:28:13] We have Riri finally, after all of this time, depending on herself, having the panic attacks caused by her thinking that she has to stop the world. She's the one that has to save the world and save everybody around her. Riri finally goes home to her mom and asks for help. Yeah. Which is really important. That's the thing that we'd known from the beginning. This is causing all the problems. Her having Natalie around helping her out has been a help at least.

[00:28:41] But she needs to ask people around her to help. And she finally does it, Ronnie. And I like this. There was a really good conversation with Ronnie when she says exactly what I was thinking. Well, I wish you'd told me a couple of days before now. Because, you know, if you told me maybe just after we walked out of the magic shop, I could have helped you before all of the crew came down to kill you in White Castle. But at least you've told me now. And at least my girl's still alive, basically, is what she's saying.

[00:29:10] So, you know, at least you told me while you're still above ground. Because telling me afterwards wouldn't help anything, right? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, no, this was really good. I like how, you know, both her mom and Riri effectively stepping up to one another to help out. I like it's, you know, I like it's also her friends, you know, as it progresses. This is about staying and fighting for what you want.

[00:29:38] And stop running from yourself, your grief, your problems and issues, you know. You can either fly, freeze or fight. And you've done the other two. So now try and fight your corner in order to protect what's yours and to stay in Chicago. You know, it's also, it's that part of getting the team together.

[00:30:03] And I like that it's focused on Gary's repair garage where, you know, Riri, in a sense, gets to appreciate what she had. And, you know, reinforces that thing of just facing up, not to run away from it. And you have that really nice moment where Natalie is showing that image of her and Gary dancing. And so, you know, if you try and, if you run from this stuff, if you try and block it out

[00:30:32] or forget it, you forget the good times as well. Not just the hard times that come with those. But, you know, so that memory of her and her dad dancing, or her stepdad dancing, it's just a really nice little moment. And I like how then it all comes together to do sort of the 18 moment, which will come for case note five.

[00:30:56] But I like, I do just like the fact that Landon is even there, the little kid, you know, saying you owe me $60. $600. Sorry, yeah, $600. So, you know, I'm still on you here, but he wants to help out. I like that he gets apple juice instead of the coffees, that then when Xavier arrives, you know, to become part of the crew.

[00:31:23] So you have all these people back helping Riri. Absolutely. Absolutely. And I have to say that scene that Natalie shares, the memory that she shares, I did have a tear in my eye for that one. I thought it was beautifully put together seeing her interact with Gary, you know, they had that conversation, Ronnie and Riri about why Riri loves Gary and doesn't have the same love for Ronnie. They're very similar people.

[00:31:49] They will, they were both engineers, and we see them working together, even when she was a young child. Yeah. You know, so they obviously spent so much time together because Riri wanted to be this genius. She wanted to be someone that made something that the whole world would remember her for. And I love that it's Gary that was always telling her, calm down, take a few breaks. You know, the world's not going to end because you didn't, because you didn't work for five seconds. And then she gets hit in the head with the iron wrench. Yeah. But it was like, it's a fun little moment.

[00:32:18] I really, I really liked it. But I'm glad that they paused to have that as well, because it's Natalie who's the one that's showing it to her, Riri saying her apologies for thinking that she was less than, I suppose. Yeah, absolutely. And I think the other good thing is that sort of the reflection of this is then Parker's crew falling apart. You know, he's already dispatched Rampage.

[00:32:45] John has been killed and has died. And now his crew effectively falls apart as they learn the truth about Rampage's death. And Parker is confronted by Clown with the evidence that, you know, Rampage wasn't a drug addict. How did he overdose?

[00:33:07] And in a sense, the veneer, the mask of this charismatic, caring Parker Robbins kind of slips here as because of his insecurities, because of the echoing, whispering voices coming through the hood. He believes they're all turning against him. You know, he grabs Slug by the neck and pins her down.

[00:33:33] But ultimately, you know, the retort as he tells them to go that they're fired is Clown saying, you know, this everything you said about family and helping one another, you know, didn't mean anything. Exactly. And you weren't real about it. So I kind of like that contrast here between what's happening with Parker and what's happening with Riri.

[00:34:00] A true family coming together on one side and a group of people that thought they were family, but actually were just being manipulated by a criminal effectively. So, yeah, really like that. Really like that. Let's get on to case note number four, because, yeah, another big moment really for Parker. We have Ezekiel, who has been made the offer to take over Riri's position in Parker's gang. He's decided that he's going to leave Chicago.

[00:34:27] He's packing, packing all his stuff up and he's about to leave. But neighbor across the road, Heather wants to have another little go at him, wants to get the police down to pick him up, in fact. And he decides, you know what? I've had enough of this. He decides to stand up directly to her and maybe melt a few more of her flowers instead of cutting them like he did last time. But because he took that moment to go after the neighbor, that's when Parker makes his move.

[00:34:54] Parker has full control of all of his bionic implants and basically turns them off. Yeah, effectively is now in command of the implants. And effectively, Ezekiel is tethered to Parker, to the hood. And he instructs him, you know, get in the car. He says, you know, when I tell you to jump, you'll jump. And he jumps.

[00:35:21] But then brings him to the house that we recognize from the flashback where both Parker and John had shot the security guard. Where John had shot the security guard. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And he's back there and is ordering Ezekiel effectively to protect him from the security guards, make sure that he can get into the house where we find out the house belongs to his father.

[00:35:50] So you were right when you said that the security guard had this moment of recognition, that moment of hesitation, which allowed John to injure him because the security guard is there. And you have Parker saying, you know, good to see you again, effectively. Yeah. Yeah. And so, and this is kind of part of the culmination of all these takeovers of different companies

[00:36:16] was to effectively, they were all in his father's portfolio. And now he wants to take over his father's company and father's wealth here. Yeah. It's quite a lot of exposition to do in this scene, in this couple minute scene, isn't it? It's like, it feels like quite a big thing that's happening. His plan is quite a big plan. You know, the whole, all of the heists that he's been doing have been ways of getting pieces

[00:36:44] of companies that his father has in his portfolio so that he has even more power than his father and to take him down. Yeah. And then when he takes him down, he gets his father's empire as well. It was a lot. And then to learn the reason why all in this scene as well, it just like, it's. It was absolutely horrific. What his father did. His mother died when he was around 12 years old or 10 years old, maybe even younger actually than that. And after a while of dealing just with Parker, his father said, well, no good for me anymore and kicked him out in the street.

[00:37:14] Nothing personal is what he says. Yeah. I mean, it's pretty horrific. And that's kind of been burnt inside Parker for the last, for all the years because Parker says that to everybody around him, nothing personal to them, just like his dad said to him. So yeah, it feels, it feels. It was big. And I think actually this, this is the one thing that I think in the end could have probably been spread out across the episodes, this exposition. Yeah.

[00:37:42] The fact that we had that flashback in at the start of episode three, I think even if you had just gotten that in episode one or even episode two and just had a few more where it just flashback because as well, I mean, it still does it here, but it is a lot of information, a lot of stuff to absorb and to suddenly make an adjustment about a character because actually

[00:38:08] it does give an element of sympathy towards Parker in terms of how he's being treated. Yeah. It just has the implications for the final episode as well. So I kind of just wished maybe this had been paced a little bit more so it kind of, you came to this a bit more so that the adjustment with Parker is not as much. Yeah. It just seemed like that flashback that we saw earlier on in the season, it felt like, as

[00:38:36] we mentioned, you knew watching it that Parker had been in this house before and John was pushing him into going to the house is what it felt like. So it just felt like maybe the two of them were running around together and John had convinced Parker to go back to his house and steal from his house basically. But hearing that he'd been kicked out of the house 10 years beforehand maybe and was being told to go back there and steal from his dad, you know, it's, it's, it feels like a lot more, I suppose.

[00:39:03] But interesting that he's, he's effectively successful. He puts the gun to his father's head and his father signs over the company to him and walks out. Now, I don't really think this is how documentation works. Um, I don't think you can just point a gun at anybody. Any CEO's head. Yeah. But not even that. I think very quickly the lawyers of a massive CEO would just go, yeah, that was under duress. Um, this, this can't hold up in court, you know, I don't think there's any, you know, I agree. It needs a witness. Yeah.

[00:39:32] I think it's just that moment when he puts the hood on and invisibly arrives over beside his father and points the gun at his head. I think that's probably just needed a little bit, again, a bit more underlining to go, he can do this anywhere. So if his father does try and do any of the things that he says, if he tries to go to the police or if he tries to come back, Parker could put the hood on, be invisible and kill him without even knowing. But I like how he threatens that. He says, you know, if you go to the police, I'll kill you. I will hunt you down.

[00:40:01] Um, if you come back or try to come back, I'll hunt you down. And it's also that there's the modulation in the voice with the sort of the evil coming through again, which is another, not just him going invisible and then showing up next to him with a gun, but it is also just that threatening voice. And, and I thought that was really well done here. But yeah, it's still quite a lot. Isn't it? Yeah.

[00:40:26] And I mean, in some ways I almost felt like the hood would make him kill his dad. I know what you mean. Yeah. Yeah. And so I was surprised that he just left. Yeah. So it was, it just felt a lot to deal with in this scene. Like I will say in any MCU show, I wasn't expecting him to pull the trigger and his father's brains to be spread out of the walls or anything like that. But, uh, but I suppose it may be just a couple of times throughout the season to have him talking to the voice in the hood going, you know, Oh, we're almost there.

[00:40:56] The plan's almost coming to fruition. I think he just, he says it to John a few times and we don't get any expansion on what it is. What's the plan? What are the steps? You know, it never really says that. I think even his father appeared in the background for two or three seconds on a news report. And Chris coughed that when he was, uh, when he was talking about it was, the person was named Robbins. He caught that there was, uh, that his father would be a character in the show, but you just didn't get enough of, of that side of it.

[00:41:24] And then all to be dropped in this scene here, as serious as it is and as big as the story is, um, it just felt like a lot to have to hang in this, in this moment here, but here he is, he's at the top of his father's empire. Now he's achieved his goal, I guess. Um, even though he's lost his entire crew and he's just forcing Ezekiel to be along with him. He has nobody by his side anymore. At least with John, it was somebody that seems to have been by his side for years and understood what the whole plan is. What it's, what it seemed like in comparison to the rest of the crew.

[00:41:53] So he doesn't have any of that anymore at all. Um, will we go on to our final case note, John? Yes. Uh, case note number five, the new suit. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Tailored from her automobile. I had no idea where this was going at all when her mom turns up and goes, well, when I realized you were still going to stay in Chicago, I bought the car back for you. And then she brings the car back and it's just after Riri saying, well, I don't know what, I don't have anything I could possibly make a new, um, suit out of.

[00:42:21] And I was going, they're not going to tear apart that gorgeous car that was rebuilt in Wakanda, wasn't it? I know. I know. You know, after they, after they destroyed it, um, when they picked up Riri and brought her over to Wakanda, they came, they, they said, they had rebuilt it and said they were going to ship it back to the US. But it seems like, um, Riri's mom sold it, um, maybe to pay for college for Riri, of course. Um, but she buys it back so that, uh, so that Riri can use it. And yeah, Riri's going to cut it into pieces and turn it into the new suit.

[00:42:52] Yeah. And when, which she does. Um, and yeah, the suit, um, and yeah, the suit, um, and the suit, um, and the suit, it's really kind of interesting, but I think what becomes more apparent, um, is just how, um, you know, Riri's saying it's taking too much energy with all the upgrades to combat Parker's magic. Um, and I can't get enough energy. Um, I'm going to have to fight magic with magic. And we get Zelma back again, doing all her different incantations.

[00:43:21] Effectively, almost looks like she's getting Ghostbuster goop off the ceiling and collecting it. I don't know about her seeing her doing magic upside down and stuff. It was good. And it's just like, uh, to effectively imbue the suit with magic. Now, I have a question and I'm just not sure if I remember it right. Was it the ancient one that was siphoning energy from? Yes. To keep herself younger. To keep herself alive. Alive and keep her length in her life. Yeah. So it was her.

[00:43:49] And, and Kaecilius was saying that that was hypocritical. So that was the whole story. So that was from Dr. Strange. Yeah. I just couldn't remember whether it was Kaecilius that was siphoning it off or whether it was, um, whether it was the ancient one. So it was the ancient one. And that's basically what Zelma's doing. Uh, here she's siphoning off energy from potentially the dark dimension, uh, similar to the ancient one so that it can power. Yeah. Slimer's energy. From the dark dimension. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, so that's quite interesting.

[00:44:16] And given that that siphoning of energy by the ancient one back in Dr. Strange cost her her life, um, eventually after many millennia or many hundreds of years, um, again, this prediction from Zelma that using this power will have a price. The magic here has a price. And I don't think it's just because it's from the dark dimension. It's because it's magic. She's using magic. She imbues that. I thought that was really cool sort of seeing all the red.

[00:44:46] Actually, uh, it felt very Scarlet Witch in terms of the look of the magic here, the, the, the kind of that vibrant red coming through the hex, um, into, to the suit here. Um, but the cost here is as, you know, the new suit is sort of starting up with the magic. Uh, it effectively kicks out, uh, Natalie from, from the suit.

[00:45:11] Um, I think Zelma says the, the reactor can't handle the AI and the magic. So Natalie is effectively starting to sort of glitch and really scrambles effectively to try and download it into the laptop. So she's tethered and retains the AI, but is too late, runs out of time. And Natalie is lost here. Yeah. Um, and the suit is effectively powered by magic here.

[00:45:42] Um, and that's the price. And that's the price. Which was sad because I like Natalie. Absolutely. And Natalie has been one of the best characters in the show. We've really loved having Natalie around. It's really sad to see that she's going and that we now have, uh, the suit powered by magic. Like we, we, again, the only thing I knew coming into the series is this going to be a merging of technology and magic. That's kind of the only thing.

[00:46:04] And now after getting five episodes into the season, meeting Natalie, having this cool, uh, AI character in there, you know, better than Jarvis has been in the past, uh, better than Friday was. We've got this cool character, Natalie. And then now that's it. Episode five, she's gone. Yeah. And I felt sorry for Zelma because you can see like she's learning here by doing it to some degree, you know, she's following spells, which there's no way she can reverse it. Um, and you see the panic.

[00:46:30] And I felt sorry for, for Zelma here as Riri is losing, you know, the, her friend again. Yeah. So it's, it's a, it's a sort of a sad sort of element here, but it is the price of magic. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And that kind of ends the episode, really, um, going into the finale of the series. Yeah. And that's it. You're right. That's the end of this.

[00:46:56] I like how it's just like, she says Natalie and it sort of fades to black as Natalie kind of lingers there, uh, on, on the sound really. Um, so yeah, it was, it was a kind of a bit of a poignant ending there. Um, so yeah, I think that's, uh, all our notes, um, case notes for this episode. Derek, any final notes that you have here?

[00:47:21] Uh, just cause I've been mentioning each episode, the, uh, the Ironheart name, uh, appears right at the start of the episode back in White Castle. Uh, very noticeable one this time for Deferta. Uh, it's on the packaging, um, of White Castle. For some reason it says below it, see what had happened was dot, dot, dot, dot. And I was wondering, was that the name of the episode originally? That it was Ironheart and that was the name of the episode, uh, before they came up with the way, way better name, uh, Karma's a Glitch. Or is it supposed to follow on with Karma's a Glitch?

[00:47:49] Maybe, or, or is this what's written on the box of White Castle that you buy in? Yeah, maybe. The box of fries that you buy in White Castle. Absolutely. I have no idea. Uh, someone tell me if White Castle tastes good. I presume it does if, uh, if an entire movie was made, uh, of two people stoned trying to get to the local White Castle or Riri's going in late at night. Yeah, who knows? It's just because the blood siblings, um, coming in and going, you chose to eat here of all places.

[00:48:17] So tell us, if, if you've ever been to a real White Castle, is the food good? Yeah. Well, and also, uh, speaking of food, I guess moving to drink and Whiskey Watch, we do see the Glenlivet back again. We do see it again, yes. With, um, Parker's, uh, father, a strange father sipping on, uh, the Glenlivet. Yes. Yes, we do.

[00:48:39] Uh, and one, one final note from me, just because I really like it, um, when they're sitting down having the conversation at the start and, uh, and Zelma's talking about that she thinks it's Stormammu and, uh, and Riri asks her how sure is she of this? And she says 50%. And later on when she's talking about it, she says, uh, 47% certain. She goes, hang on a second, is that going down? And he's like, no, no, I just rounded up last time I spoke to you. Yeah, absolutely. I like that a lot. Excellent stuff.

[00:49:05] Um, Derek, do you defend episode five of Ironheart? I absolutely defend it. I do think there's a couple of things in this episode that didn't quite work for me. You know, a slog stealing the suit and then bringing it back to Riri and trying to run her over on a road and Riri not getting out of the way. I thought that was a bit silly. And, uh, the entire story of what Parker's motivation was and what was happening, what had happened to him and why he was getting there with his father. I thought those two things, uh, in the episode weren't great.

[00:49:32] Um, but the amount of action that happened in this episode was incredible. Uh, the fights that were happening again, showing, uh, Riri's abilities and showing her, her knowledge, I thought was really good. Showing a fully powered up, uh, Ezekiel, uh, Stain, I thought was, was excellent. So that was really good in, in that battle there as well. Um, so yeah, really do defend it. Really like the episode overall, uh, really sad to have lost, uh, Natalie, um, as we power up the suit with magic.

[00:49:59] Um, but interested to see how the series is going to end when we get to episode six. Uh, John, how about yourself? Do you defend this episode? Yeah, I, I do defend this episode. I'd give it four crinkle cut chips out of five. Um, I, yeah, I, I very similar to you. I think, you know, there's a few elements here that are, I think would have been better spaced out around. Um, I'd say to some degree, he's almost felt a little peripheral sometimes.

[00:50:26] Um, and I think having a bit more of his backstory, uh, giving him that sympathetic edge. Um, I think because there's an adjustment to make here in getting that dump of information about his childhood and everything else in that one scene. I just think Parker could be a more interesting character. If we know this about him as he, as, as we had gotten to know him throughout the season. You know, if we got a little bit more of that behind him. Exactly.

[00:50:55] He becomes a tragic anti-hero in a sense then. Um, you know, like his intentions are good initially. As I say, he's charismatic. Yeah. But they're tragic and his, his ultimate plan is tragic. Yeah. Um, in terms of effectively getting his father back really. Yeah. And that, that was just maybe a bit all too much for me, but I absolutely loved the action here. Really good.

[00:51:21] I loved, um, that Zelma, we get her back here in this episode. And, um, yeah, I just thought the new suit being imbued with, with magic was a pretty cool idea. Looks very cool as well. Yeah. Black and red suit is awesome. And, but the price bit to be paid here is the loss of, uh, the Natalie AI, um, which is a huge blow for Riri. So yeah, for me, four crinkle cut chips out of five. Oh, I want some crinkle cut chips.

[00:51:51] Me too. And by chips, I mean fries. Yes. Yes. Maybe they'll have them down the student bar, John. They certainly might. They might. Yes. They certainly might. Yes. Fellow defenders, fellow quizzers. Um, it is the MIT student pub quiz. You really regret calling it that. I really do. Absolutely. Especially because MIT was only in the show for about five minutes. It really was, wasn't it? Yes, indeed. Um, but yes, it is episode five.

[00:52:19] And so we move on to question five. What does White Castle advertise that the home team Wolfpack get for free? Hmm. Oh, I like that. So the Wolfpack. I guess that's the name of the local team. Ah, okay. When do they have connection to Werewolf by Night? Is he on the team or anything? He might be. Will he ever appear back in the MCU? Do you think so? I don't think so.

[00:52:47] I'd be nice if, if he did. I don't think so. Yeah. Yeah, you never know. You never know. Maybe we'll get another holiday special. Yeah. Another Halloween special in the future. But John, do you want to give us that question one more time? Sure. What does White Castle advertise that the home team Wolfpack get for free? Fantastic. That's the fifth question of six. Once you have all six questions, email us into feedback at tvpodcastindustries.com with your answers.

[00:53:13] And you have up until the week of the 21st of July to get all those answers into it. And you could be able to get your hands on some Ironheart goodies. That email address is also where you can send your feedback for Ironheart. Just like Coffee and Vodka did. Coffee and Vodka sends in his thoughts about episode five. He says, Now that's that out of the way.

[00:53:43] Another good episode. Though, could you explain the whole beginning captured, not captured truck scene? Also, at this point, daddy issues should just be assumed unless otherwise noted. A lot going on in this one requiring a second watch. Speaking of which, looking forward to your coverage of Sandman, four abstaining cyborgs, magical re-recharges and force bubbles around the world out of five. Peace and take care. Coffee and Vodka. Excellent stuff, Coffee and Vodka.

[00:54:10] Yes, I mean, as I say, I think the horse race between Mephisto and Dormammu. You would think it would be Dormammu again. Alas, we are recording episode five in the knowledge of episode six. But it sounds like you were not writing your email in the knowledge of episode six. No, I agree. And I think there's, given what Zelma brings to the table, at the table in White Castle,

[00:54:40] you would kind of go, yeah, it's going to be Dormammu. And it would connect to the comics as well. So that was always my sort of feeling. Dormammu has been in the MCU already. There's no reason why he can't be back. He is the god of the dark dimension. So, yeah, totally agree that in the horse race here, I'd say there may be a furlong or possibly, there may be a neck possibly in the horse race. There may have been, yeah. Yeah, there may have been.

[00:55:11] As for the opening captured, not captured truck scene in the beginning, you know, was Ironheart or the iron suit captured or not at the beginning? Yeah, I just found it weird. It was like they needed a way to get the suit to Riri and rather than Natalie just flying there to save her, which is what you'd expect, because that's what happens in all the Iron Man movies. Tony just presses the button and the suit arrives. You see Riri even touching the necklace that's supposed to recall Natalie,

[00:55:39] but Natalie's inside the truck at the time, so she doesn't come out. But actually what happens is that Slug brings the suit back to Riri. It just feels odd. I don't know. I don't know if I can explain it. It just feels like they made a decision and it probably wasn't the right one. They just needed to have Slug and the suit there at the same time. Yeah, agreed. Yeah, just feels odd. So Slug couldn't be outside controlling the computers for this mission that the other crew members went on.

[00:56:06] She had to be out there getting the suit for some reason. Yeah, exactly, exactly. Don't we know why. Yeah, but great stuff. Thanks for the thoughts, coffee and vodka on episode five. Over on Facebook, we got some feedback from Denise DeFlorio Lardi, who says, OK, two questions. How is Riri bopping about Chicago in the suit and not being identified, filmed, made internet famous?

[00:56:33] Also, does the evil sentient cloak know it has a piece gone? Very interesting there, Denise. I'm not entirely sure that it is sentient like Doctor Strangers. Yes. You got the sense, actually, from the what if that it was. But it's more that it has an energy source. It's almost like a telephone.

[00:57:00] It allows communication between Parker and potentially Dormammu or whoever is controlling it. And it's bringing energy through, which is disfiguring his skin. It's almost like maybe a portal, possibly, type thing. Interesting. Sort of, it's a gateway to something. Right.

[00:57:27] See, I was kind of thinking it's more like, not even, like the Venom symbiote. It's almost like it only is alive when it's attached to Parker. Yeah. But you can hear its voice speaking in his mind, influencing him. But you don't see it moving. Yeah. You know, like Doctor Strange's cloak. It's not like Doctor Strange's cloak, definitely. It's just a hood with a cloak attached to it. That's what it is. Yeah. So I don't think, Denise, that it is sentient. So it doesn't know that a piece is gone.

[00:57:55] And it also, the only other ability it has is making sure his hair fits the hood perfectly. That's the only other ability it has. As for Riri Poppin' about Chicago not being snapped or identified or filmed, like everything would be filmed. I just think we haven't seen it. I'm sure there's hundreds and hundreds of videos on YouTube of this iron suit flying overhead. Yeah. But I mean, I think it's to the point about when she says, I wouldn't make the news. But she might make social, you know, I think.

[00:58:24] She absolutely would, yeah. I think Denise has a point here. You know, flying around, all that. I mean, even just the fact that she leaves the old suit after her fight with Ezekiel just in the middle of the road. Exactly. So it's like someone's going to slap her with a fine for sort of fouling the highway, I guess. Or blocking it or whatever. Or someone else is going to come in and nick it. Yeah.

[00:58:51] I was thinking more nicking it because there's a couple of thousand quids of grant money in there. Yeah, exactly. So I do think, like, potentially she would have made the news or something because, yeah, she is flying around. I mean, even just in episode one where you have John and Parker looking at her. I mean, she's going to basically flying through downtown Chicago. Yeah. So, like, everyone saw her. Well, absolutely. Absolutely. And crashed into the ground.

[00:59:19] That would definitely make the six o'clock news. An iron suit has crashed out of the sky into the ground in downtown Chicago. But, again, at this stage, with everything that's happened in New York, everything that's happened in San Francisco, the blip, everything. I guess people are maybe more sort of desensitized to it now. Maybe. Like, oh, look, there's another Iron Man. Exactly. There's another Iron Man. Does that even have a person in it? Like, yeah.

[00:59:46] Kind of, but although we can't take away the point of the series because Riri's saying the reason why she was making the iron suit was because people would pay attention to her if she did make an iron suit. So, yeah, I guess because people would still pay attention to her because nobody has done it since Iron Man had passed away a few years ago. That's true. Yeah. Thanks so much, Denise. Yeah, thanks, Denise. I don't know whether we clarified any of that for you at all. But thanks so much for emailing that in.

[01:00:15] The Sandman, we will be. We're going to cover the final episode of Iron Heart next. That will be recorded this weekend. The past is the past is the final episode of Iron Heart. And then myself and John are going off on holidays for a couple of weeks. We certainly are. As we said, going off to the sunshine and chilling out cocktails and wine and lovely food. Really looking forward to it. But that does mean that we're not going to be covering The Sandman for a little while. The first six episodes of The Sandman season two are out on Netflix.

[01:00:44] And then when we come back, we will be covering it. Six, Derek. I know. Who does that? Netflix. Netflix. Rather than dropping the whole thing in a day, they did six at the start of July. They'll do another six towards the end of July. And the final 13th episode will be out on the 31st of July. We will cover it all. We're just not going to be able to cover it immediately. Yeah, absolutely. But it gives you time to watch it and send in your thoughts again to feedback at tvpodcastindustries.com.

[01:01:10] And with your thoughts on The Sandman, I've watched the first episode and absolutely loved it. I'm so glad to be back in the world of The Sandman as well. I'm really looking forward to getting my teeth into that when we get back from holidays. Yeah, no, I'm really looking forward to seeing The Sandman as well. And of course, discussing the final episode of Ironheart, The Past is the Past, which we will be back to you with next time. Yeah, yeah. Next couple of days. Thanks so much for joining us. We'll talk to you again next time.

[01:01:40] Yeah. Thanks so much, fellow defenders and of course, fellow quizzers for joining us until next time. Keep watching. Keep listening. And of course, keep defending. Bye. Bye.