Exclusive Interview with Cheo Hodari Coker the Showrunner of Luke Cage.

[00:00:00] Welcome back to the Defenders! We are here for a very special follow-up to our Luke Cage Season 2 coverage.

[00:00:07] Instead of doing our wrap-up on what we thought about the season, we were lucky enough to get a chance to sit down with the showrunner and creator of Luke Cage on Netflix.

[00:00:16] Cheo Hodari Coker, for a good hour and a half chat with them all about his thoughts on a bet. He created the universe of Luke Cage, loads of other history about the things he's worked on in the past, some of the things he's got going in the future

[00:00:27] And mostly his thoughts about Luke Cage, the show and the people who are behind the scenes working on at the cast, the crew, the writers, So I'm really, really interesting stuff in there, that myself and John got to sit down and talk to a bet.

[00:00:39] Yeah, a really fantastic chat with Chirhodari Coker and also you know it was being able to just listen to some really insightful stuff about the Marvel Netflix shows and obviously focused around the cage.

[00:00:55] Yeah, yeah, and both other stuff like Rockies in there as well, great discussions about Rockie. Yeah, Rocky, Xman, loads of all the different bits and bobs. Yeah, just sprinkled throughout a really nice relaxed and chilled chat with the showrunner of Luke Cage.

[00:01:11] Hopefully you enjoy it and let us know your thoughts, going on with the email and set feedback at defendersTVpodcast.com With any thoughts that you have in any of your episodes, be great to hear from it.

[00:01:19] Yeah, and of course please subscribe to Defenders TV podcast over on any good or evil podcast capture of your choice. With it further ado, let's get into it. Hello, Mr. Coker, it's Derek here, can you hear me? Yeah, yeah, I'll put it back, okay.

[00:02:03] Hello and it's John here, a lovely case t-shirt. Hey, how are you doing? You know what's funny? I'm actually laughing because I just happened to be wearing this t-shirt. I literally did not wear this t-shirt for this conversation but we actually didn't, didn't match produced these.

[00:02:22] We made enough, you know, for props on set. Yeah, I'm sure there's an extra double XL one and of course I just took it right off the top of your gun. It was one of the only few perks we actually have on the job.

[00:02:36] I've got to have some t-shirts. Did DW actually sell it to you? It's my whole promise. Now what actually DW would charge me or he would really bad that I took one but you know, there are, you know, members of has this privilege of speaking. Absolutely.

[00:02:54] We'll kick off the interview with you if that's all right. All right, that's perfect. So just before we start, or we can start like I just have to, Hey, just thank you guys because, um, listening to your podcast,

[00:03:07] you guys are so thoughtful in terms of even the things you argue about. They're talking about, like, wait, wait, like, I don't want to call it a say this. I want to say that.

[00:03:16] We did this decision for this reason and oh my god, they got this and oh they didn't get this and it's, it blows my mind because it's almost as if you're in the writers room. It's like these are things that we talk about with this level of scrutiny.

[00:03:29] And so like, it was really trippy for me listening to the, um, the finale podcast because like, oh my god, it's like, A, like they're getting it all and B's like, I'm scared. Like I can't even talk because if we do it a season three like,

[00:03:42] they're, they're going to direct like, like, we're talking about that. That's crazy. Like, you know, Yeah, we really enjoy discussing the Marvel Netflix shows and obviously we really enjoy the Lukaage. You know, we take a bit of speculation some theories. We like delve into the process of it,

[00:04:00] looking at the director, the actors, writers and so on. How do you like to view Lukaage as a series? So I think the thing is is that like, there's only with so much pride. There are only with so many different ways to,

[00:04:16] you know, skin of cat's so speak. Yeah. So the real magic comes from not the choices because so much of what happens is people try to like, get into spoilers or they can do this or they can do that. It's all about interpretation. Yeah. You know,

[00:04:32] it's, to me, I kind of look at everything with me's music and so I was a bit like jazz standard. It's like people have been playing startups like for 45, 50 years. Yeah. But every version sounds different or like, you know, John Coltrane's, my favorite things or, or, you know,

[00:04:51] innocent and mental mood. I mean, how many people? How many different bad versions of that? I haven't been played. Yeah. Yeah. When someone like John Coltrane, you know, does it, you know, it elevated to something else and something different. So it's about interpretation. Absolutely. That's the thing.

[00:05:07] It's like we use the comic books as a jumping off point, but then at the same time we don't really know exactly how things are going to come out. We just try our best to try to reinterpret them in ways and so, you know,

[00:05:20] that's why I don't really feel even the people in Marvel. I'm sure the sniper's like, oh my god, I can't believe it. You're just going to do this to, I'm not saying that. I'm not saying that. It's like,

[00:05:29] even if you think that we're doing some of the things that we're going to do, it doesn't really mean anything because the interpretation will be so different. Then by the end, it's going to feel fresh anyway. Exactly exactly.

[00:05:40] Yeah. I think we kind of come at a bit of a slightly different way than a lot of reviewers do, because we don't watch ahead. We record our episode by episode coverage as well.

[00:05:48] So and so we don't see the full finished product when we're talking about each episode. So a lot of the time we're kind of just trying to work piece together, where the show is going to go, you know, so and so that's the load to film doing.

[00:05:59] Thanks so much for the compliment. That's really nice of you to say. Something that we've obviously been working on the podcast for four or five years now, and it's been so much fun doing it, but getting the three of us together and having us. Yeah, absolutely.

[00:06:11] I was talking about it as big as I thought. Yeah, thanks so much. And I mean actually thank you for doing really interesting and like, I think a unique take, you know, of these Marvel Netflix, everyone brings something different,

[00:06:24] but just like how the music is such a large part of the show, you know, and we've tried to do kind of individual opening themes for our own podcast. And like one of our friends who does blues, we got him to try and sort of do that.

[00:06:42] So seeing some of the blues acts and all the different types of music, it's just fantastic. Yeah, it's been really, really good. Yeah. No thank you. Thank you so much. And it also makes it fun. I've got a few if you've done a terrible season,

[00:06:54] and we'd had to talk about it for an hour every episode for 13 episodes. You know, we couldn't live with ourselves. Thanks for having really good season. Thank you. Thank you. Right. You know, the one thing I've learned is that like, you can't please everybody.

[00:07:10] And that's the hardest part because, you know, we put our heart and soul into these shows. Mm-hmm. And the gift in the curse of Twitter is that on one hand, it's great to hear what everyone's thinking. The first is that you try to defend yourself.

[00:07:29] To what I'm thinking. And you, you guys have probably seen my Twitter feed like, you know, like, I tend to engage. It's part of it for me is fun. So I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, if you say my name free time, I'm coming.

[00:07:43] Here I am, like, like, what's up? Like, and so I think sometimes it surprises people that, like, I actually interact all that level. But for me, I think that every mistake, I think that every road that doesn't quite work is

[00:08:00] an opportunity to try to find two things differently if you get another go around. Right. Yeah. And so it like, for me even when, those sometimes the feedback can be painful, I use it differently than most do because you're being a former music critic and having written reviews.

[00:08:23] Yeah. I have a different viewpoint on reviews. And then, then I think that people do it just to certain extent. Yeah. And so I can always tell when someone is just like, kind of just they have at a gender.

[00:08:34] I can always tell when someone is just like, okay, they watch the three of them, they skip around. And then you can tell the people that like really have thought about it. And they just don't agree with your viewpoint. But that is so ingrained.

[00:08:47] And so heartfelt, even if it's though it's harsh. It's so well written that you can't help but think about, okay, let's look at what they're saying and let's see if, if, if, if rethinking how we're going to do this season. If incorporating that and using it like notes,

[00:09:06] the way that we would use notes from, say, for example, from Netflix or from Marvel. And that's what's happened in terms of, I've talked about this in the press, where in Jelika J. Bastien's, you know, pieces that that she did for New York Magazine,

[00:09:22] yeah, or for our, I think, culture. Just really had like because there were some of them scathing but they were just so well written. Now is this like man, this is like, this is great. It was terrible. Like it was kind of like this thing,

[00:09:34] but it helped us because the top of season two, like we literally printed them all out and they distributed them to the writers, and they said, okay, let's look at this. And rather than being hurt or defensive, let's think about what she's saying.

[00:09:50] And so that was one of the things that came out was she said it's, you know, I think it was one of the first reviews. She said she said it's, it's a shame that no one bothered to really

[00:10:00] think of Luke K. does a man rather than as a hero. Right. Right. Honestly, on one hand, you get defensive because you're like, okay, I've got all these mandates to establish Luke K. each after the established Luke K. He's differently than was established in Jessica Jones. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:10:15] And you're trying to establish the world. And then at the same time, even though you've got fans that are so deep into canon, like they can't, they're going to be some fans out there that are just pissed that he's not wearing the TRR.

[00:10:28] You know, a chain belt and a yellow shirt. Yeah. And then to get past that, you have people that they just want to see a literal translation of what they're reading in the comics. Yeah. But on steam. And so, there are ripple effects with all these connected universes.

[00:10:48] So for example, it's like, and the comics, Reveconners is Luke's girlfriend. And at the same time had a real ad to have some kind of relationship with, with striker aka Diamondback. Yeah. And basically Luke gets framed with drugs and for her murder. And that causes this whole thing.

[00:11:07] Well, mind you, I can't do any of that because of the fact that Reve was introduced in Jessica Jones and she was part of the program that, you know, basically created kill grade. Yeah. And so already you're like, whoa, he's so like, his origin stories off the table.

[00:11:26] Kind of think, yeah. That origin stories off the table. Yeah. Like how can we, if we're going to use the, if we're going to use the, if we're going to use the, if we're going to use the thing where Luke

[00:11:37] cage okay is from Harlem and the foreign gag member who's kind of coming back into, you know, that's off the table. Yeah. And so then you begin to ask all these different questions as to, okay, how can we establish Luke cage and what he's about?

[00:11:50] And then at the same time, still introduced the elements of the comic that people are going to hold on to. Yeah. And so, part of its tone. So, all we're going to run away from the Black exploitation, sweet sister sweet Christmas of it all.

[00:12:07] All we're going to embrace it in a way that makes sense in 20th century. And so, of course, you know, we did the latter because, you know, all Blacks' exploitation is is African American characters being able to act and react in the same way

[00:12:23] that their white counterparts do. Right. Yeah. If you go to the poster from, you know, how do they say, you know, how do they bond cool in the bullet? Right. And so, essentially, it's just rich and round tree getting to kick ass, kiss a girl, you know,

[00:12:39] drive a car. Like, you know, it's basically, there's saying, we want to take the James Bond, you know, template and put it in an African American context, down to having an iconic theme song. Yeah. You know, down to having a certain swagger

[00:12:54] in terms of how he's approaching everything. I mean, it's just, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And a lot of the same kind of kinds of like, you know, and now really very dated, you know, kind of show-vinistic view, but you know, for its time, it was revolutionary. Yeah. Of course.

[00:13:16] Yeah. You know, what's the influence on the comics, of course, is that, you know, the Marvel officers in the 70s were very close to Times Square. And so you had all these young writers who were talking past, you know,

[00:13:28] if I don't know if you see the HBO show, the do's. No, actually, no. Oh, it's an incredible show. It's really, but it's set in the New York of the 70s of Times Square. And when it was really very CD, very, you know, score sazy taxi driver. Okay.

[00:13:44] That's real. Like, I've actually captured like what it used to be like back then. Yeah. The do's kind of an extension of it. But imagine that environment of just a, what, what health kitchen, which is that area around Times Square in New York. That's where Daredevil comes from.

[00:14:00] Yeah. That's where, you know, the ideas of okay, you're walking down 42nd Street and you're seeing all these people lined up this, you know, to wait to go see shaft. You know, like, wait a minute, like, you know, we don't have any black characters in this

[00:14:12] black rotation thing that's really taken off. So why don't we have our own version of that? And that's how a character like, like, we cage is born. And so, you know, you want to keep that energy, but you want to update it. And you want to update it.

[00:14:23] Basically, basically kind of get back to the question. It's like, you have all these different things happening and you're trying to do that. And so sometimes you forget, okay, how, how am I thinking about this character? How am I thinking about, like, you know,

[00:14:38] making sure that the human moments are balanced with the superhero moments. Yeah. And we collectively as a writing staff. Of course, are constantly in the first season trying to establish the world and trying to establish the marble of it all. And then at the same time,

[00:14:52] creeping past some of these character moments. And that's really, you know, what a second season is about. Second season is all about once you've established the world or once you've established kind of the premise. Season two is all about character and that was really why for season two.

[00:15:07] We were able to really go really deep into who Luke Cage was. And really, frankly, introduced a lack of flaws in Luke Cage, which was something that my culture, you know, was really excited about. Yeah, I'm sure. I'm sure. And talk about that a little bit, Chief.

[00:15:23] In regards to taking on season one of the cage, you know, you came into it from doing a lot of episodes of Safeland. Believe who's kind of your big, your big break. You come in to take over the show runner as a show like Luke Cage,

[00:15:34] your effectively setting up the biggest black-led show on television at the time. Now, you know, coming into season two, you have things like black lightning. You've had black pound through this year as well. So, huge, exchange of experience probably for you. From season one to season two? Well,

[00:15:51] kind of getting the margins. I mean, the first television show I was staffed on was with Southland. And so I was on Southland then I was on NCIS Los Angeles. Yeah. I was on almost human for, you know, probably first seven of those 12 episodes. Yeah.

[00:16:09] And it was interesting. Like I got traded. I got traded to Ray Donovan and essentially Joe Henderson who went on to, you know, create Lucifer, create and run Lucifer. Yeah. My place in almost human. But it was on almost human that, you know,

[00:16:26] I made a lot of connections. And in terms of people that ended up coming onto the Luke Cage staff, like Maddo and Susan who was an assistant at the time. Yeah. You know, Brian Farley, who is our script coordinator. So it's from that camp. I mean,

[00:16:41] because all these different writers from, like, like, circuses and someone's like, hey, you know, do you know somebody that, back in July, I know this guy or, that's how writers are built. It's like every single room, you form relationships that lead to other connections later on.

[00:16:58] So the final room that I was in before working on Luke Cage was, was Ray Donovan. Right. And I was on that show. And Bitterman who created Southland, also created Ray Donovan. And so that was kind of my finishing school, just certain things. Because with Ray,

[00:17:17] you have an iconic midlife crisis mail who is trying to navigate this space between, what society considers morality and his own personal morality. And at the same time, masking a deep wound with which is the prism through which he looks at the rest of the world. Right.

[00:17:41] And so with Luke Cage, you know, coming off of just being around like, you know, and Bitterman and David Hollander and Michael Tolkin and Ron Nye's Welfan Wanner and and Brett Johnson, I mean, like all of whom are just like just incredible with character and incredible with,

[00:17:59] you know, with that kind of nuance. And we talk about world building. And I saw a world building on Southland. I saw a world built to an even bigger extent on Ray Donovan. Having witnessed all of that, it gave me a huge, I don't want to say boost,

[00:18:15] but it gave me perspective on trying to do the same thing with Luke Cage. Right. Because one of the things that Jeff Lowbe, who beyond being the president of Marvel television, is in his own right and incredible storyteller.

[00:18:30] Because if you've read his comics the way that I have, writing, I mean, he's one of the, you know, all the Jeff, why would you get mad on me saying this? He's definitely one of the lines. He's definitely one of one of the most influential

[00:18:41] comic book writers ever. But that is. And then the other thing that's interesting with Jeff is that because he's also been through the television gamut, he was on the writing staffs of heroes lost. So when you talk to Jeff, you know,

[00:18:56] you're talking not only to somebody as an executive who understands what writers are going through at the same time. He's been, he's been on writing staffs. He's been on some legendary staffs. Yeah. And talking story with him is always, from the very beginning,

[00:19:10] it's always been a very, you know, incredible experience. One of the things that he always said, and it was something that, and one of our first meetings that always stuck in the back of my head is that he said that all Marvel characters view their powers

[00:19:25] as a curse. There's nothing happy about where their powers came from. And if you remember that, it always give you a perspective on who they are and what they want and where they're going. Which is really the most important thing to understand for a character. Daredevil, perfect example.

[00:19:44] It's like he's got the tragedy of his father's murder in addition to the fact that, you know, being blinded and the senses. There was nothing pretty about what happened. You know, Jessica Jones has, as well, in terms of how she got her powers. There's incredible tragedy with that.

[00:20:00] Lukaage being framed for a crime being committed and happened to him, you know, in prison and then coming out with these powers that he didn't want. And then added to that, taking the backstory that, Melissa Rosenberg created in Jessica Jones and saying,

[00:20:18] okay, it's like, you've got this character who has powers he doesn't want, who isn't naturally heroic, because he wants to lay in the cut rather than kind of come out of the shadows. Yeah. And he's haunted by finding out that the woman that he loves,

[00:20:32] you know, wasn't necessarily upstanding and he's in love with another woman who murdered that woman. So that's, that's the shit. You know what? It's so, essentially going past that, okay, so how do you start Lukaage? And for me, it was hard because when I first came on,

[00:20:53] the first thing that happened after you, of course you signed a way and you really see, we see that you had, you know, you know, you can join the Marley, you know, the Marley universe. Yeah. The first thing they do is they give you, um,

[00:21:07] or at least to personally happen with me because this was the really, the early days. They gave me the shooting scripts for the first two episodes of Daredevil and the first two episodes of Jessica Jones. So it was two, two gotters, first two scripts for Daredevil.

[00:21:19] You know, episode one episode two or as we say in our parlance, 101 and 102. And it was the same thing for Charles of Melissa's first two Swiss or Jessica Jones. And I read those four scripts and I immediately wanted to quit. There were just so good. Yeah. I mean,

[00:21:41] and my, everyone now has seen the episodes and the episodes themselves are just really beautiful, but the experience of reading those was just this thing if they pull it off and be different than any superhero show that's ever happened on in both cases like,

[00:21:57] this is graph, not this is like next level. And I'm like, okay, you know, with Daredevil, you've got Kington with Jessica Jones, you have Kill Grave. With Luke Cage, you got, you know, you got like, you know, Goldbug, like you've got like, You know, then you've got like,

[00:22:22] you need to increase the amount of the extra value of the story. It's like, you know, and it's like a real life of a series. That is totally so much different from what anyone has seen in the process. I think it's like, you know,

[00:22:41] it's like a real life of a series of things. Yeah, that has its own struggles, triumphs and challenges on a daily hourly basis. Let's look at that. And let's look at having bulletproof skin and being bulletproof when black men are being shot

[00:23:00] systematically by the cops and also neighbor in situations on a daily basis how does being bulletproof change the ecology of a neighborhood? That's one. The second thing that happened is that we early on had a conversation with Joe Cassata.

[00:23:17] Because I was always assuming that okay, we were going to just basically put Luke Cage in Hell's Kitchen or maybe the village because at the time, if you look at at at least the

[00:23:29] comics, it's like she's kind of in Hell's Kitchen but she could be in the village. Yeah, yeah, if you know New York City at all. So I figured okay, like that's where we're going to place Luke Cage.

[00:23:38] And then Joe was like, well, the caretest from Harlem, why not shoot it in Harlem? And that was like, oh man, me, that was just man if we haven't because that meant that musically that meant historically we could basically use the show as a Trojan horse

[00:23:53] to talk about African American culture and addition to superhero stuff. Yeah, you really have to use this Harlem as a character. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, it's been fantastic watching it because it makes all it says it's an arsenal of heroes really want to go visit and see the places.

[00:24:07] Yeah, absolutely. No, and it's definitely an incredible place to film and also visit. If you have a chance to come to New York City to see it. So then that, then the third thing was okay, it's like the third thing I realized was

[00:24:23] that we had a distinct advantage because when you have an iconic villain like Kingpin, you can only fail. Like they were lucky that they found the perfect Kingpin and Vincent did offer.

[00:24:41] Yeah, like he just in terms of his half in terms of him, the ball of head, I mean, he's a perfect. Yeah, you know, it's like what Frank Miller in Clause Jansen did on the page is like, you can only, you can only fail.

[00:24:55] You can only either capture that or, you know, good luck. Yeah, you know, in terms of what Melissa did in interpreting Brian Michael Benes' world for Jessica Jones is like, Kilgraves in the way that he read interpretive at character. Yeah. Oh, there's so much story that's there.

[00:25:13] It's like, you just trying to live up to that. What I realized were, Lou Cage is that okay, it's like, you know, people haven't thought about cotton, often, 40 years. Yeah, yeah. People have thought about black moriah in any real way and a long time either.

[00:25:26] And so it gave us as a gave us the opportunity to redefine villains within the context of this quantum quote, more realistic take on the Marvel universe. Yeah, grounded take. I don't know, hey, that word grounded is the, what I was talking about. Yeah, exactly.

[00:25:43] But, and then all of a sudden, in talking myself back into an, I'm like, okay, like, there's a great opportunity here. Yeah. And so perhaps there'd been a phrase to these challenges, let's embrace them, let's go at it.

[00:25:55] And so then that was the thing, was, you know, I was lucky enough to be able to attract, you know, you know, Charles Murray and I had a crawl in the Kayla Cooper and Christian Taylor and Jason Horowitz and Nathan Jackson.

[00:26:19] And, you know, everybody to this first staff and the great thing about that was that collectively, the great thing about a writer's room is that you're not alone. Right. And then, you know, everybody is just passionate about the characters and everybody is just

[00:26:39] passionate about, you know, exploring this world and building this world. And that was the thing that was, that was so great was, you know, me always being a geek. I called our writers room the danger room, like like the management of course.

[00:27:00] The reason for that is because what makes the experiment unique is when they fight people, you never know which combination of powers, it's going to get you to your beginning. So is it going to be night crawler picking up Logan and Banffing closer to the sentence

[00:27:17] also letting him slash it? Yeah. Is it going to, you know, close this picking up, you know, Logan again for a fastball special, is keep trying going to face somebody through something to do something.

[00:27:27] It's storm going to, you know, shoot a lightning bolt off of a colossus, which is then because he's metallic, exactly there. Then just something else. Yeah. And so that's what you're doing in a writer's room. It's like, you know, everyone has different moments and ideas.

[00:27:44] And so, you know, a Kayla Cooper will have an idea and then I eat it will have an idea. Charles always brings an interesting perspective to every fake this Charles and I will kind of like, you know, Xavier Magneto, like so. Thanks.

[00:27:58] We always kind of, not in a dissonant way. It's just that like, you know, we're doing that post. So it's like, I always say being the showrunner, you have to be Charles Xavier because

[00:28:08] you're in a room and you have to kind of basically read everybody's mind and, you know, trying to figure out okay, like who's who's going to bring out what peace and you're basically cultivating the conversations as everyone to collectively is building from a structural

[00:28:29] and a dialogue standpoint what the season is. I'm also a huge fan of American football, although, you know, it's still the same thing. I mean, you know, whether it's American football or whether it's what we call soccer, you guys call football. Yeah. Off is its fence. Yeah.

[00:28:44] I enjoy the NFL too. Mm-hmm. We have a Caroline Appentus fan on a Baltimore Ravens fan. Yeah. I feel sorry for all the years. We got that. That's just what I can believe.

[00:28:57] But the thing is, is one thing that I always, that I always kind of, because my college roommate, David Shaw, is a college football coach. I went to Stanford University at Asda, we were at Stanford together and so watching him

[00:29:15] coach, I always like, I'm an obsessed with coaches because coaches deal with trying to put a game plan together. There's a lot of personalities in the coaching room that terms all different positions

[00:29:26] and then you just try to come up with the game plan for, you know, the players to run off of it. And if you look at, in football they call, they call the offensive defense of playing a script. And so that's what we do is we're the writers.

[00:29:39] We put together the scripts that our quarterback, my culture, is going to go with. And everyone, you know, and then it's just a lot of the back and forth. And so what we did is, is the way that I stock a room is for me conceptually offense

[00:29:56] is dialogue, defense, destruction. Right? And so that people in the room that are incredibly good with structure, you've got people in the room that are really snappy with funny dialogue, moments. And then it's just you just put it all together.

[00:30:09] And you know, that's kind of how the first season came along is just us, you know, putting together a game plan. And that's the first part. And then you cast. And then you layer, yeah, you layer and characters like, you know, obviously, after what

[00:30:25] are as my a dealer, absolutely amazing, my heart's lallie, as Captain, I was stunning performance from that character. And then he's gone after episode seven and you've got the show turning on its aylism being on the show, or Mariah Della does your new villain really.

[00:30:40] I love that choice in season one to have her in the background of those 13 episodes and by the end becoming the villain, that everybody was playing more attention to the noise your boys in the room was like, and then you find that Mariah is the one that's going

[00:30:54] to be in control of Harlan in the future. You know, it's a beautiful choice. Really nice choice. Oh, look, look, look. Thank you because I mean, I guess she don't have the only basis for a killer guard mouth.

[00:31:04] But the whole way that that happened is funny because in my very first story pitch, even before the room was assembled, when I was talking to Jeff and Karim's rake and then on the Netflix level, you know, Cindy Holland and Ali Goss and Alson angle and Chris

[00:31:28] and you know, one of the first things I said is that we want to have a twist where we're going to make everybody think that the big bad is the big bad until we kill him and introduce a big bad.

[00:31:41] And Jeff loved that immediately because today that we haven't done that before. Yeah. The thing was this is the interesting part. We start casting and at first, I'm thinking that like, per the comic books that caught not just going to be an older character.

[00:31:58] And so we're looking at African American male characters in their late 40s, early 50s. So we're looking at, you know, Dennis Hazbert's other world, we're looking at big rings. Both of whom have been so incredibly talented are already their books. There's a 90 question.

[00:32:16] And then what was interesting was that Ron Ciefest Jones audition for Cottonmouth. Oh, really? Had a very interesting audition. Actually, you know, Matthew Lopes, who went into writing episode four and episode, co-writer episode 11 of season two at the time he was our script coordinator and wrote the bad

[00:32:46] audition scene. And this is kind of very caring to you with Tino S, kind of like meditation on character that like it's a great, the great auditions from that. That that that that that low-share.

[00:32:59] And Ron gave a kind of cerebral really kind of chilling like it was interesting. One way is audition. It was interesting enough where we were like, okay, he might not be cottonmouth but we

[00:33:09] got to keep this guy in the loop because he's got, he's got a certain flavor. He's cool. Bobby Fish and her own paradise. I love him. And then what was interesting, the audition that really changed everything, honestly. And I don't, and here's the thing.

[00:33:24] It's like, I hope that people at some point rewatcher for season to fully appreciate air flow, I Harvey. Because air flow, I Harvey. I think it's an incredibly brilliant actor. And I think get short trips as people get, you know, they're angry about losing cottonmouth.

[00:33:41] But I think because they're angry so angry that they didn't really look at his performance which I thought was as honestly as Diamondback was brilliant. But here's the thing was that his audition for cottonmouth was so good. We almost cast areas cottonmouth. Really? Okay, yeah.

[00:34:00] And what happened was it said, okay, he's not older. So let's take a younger take on who cottonmouth is. And it was like, okay, well, wait a minute, if we are going to hold to this thing where

[00:34:12] cottonmouth's going to be gone at episode seven, like we're going to need somebody equally strong and it's on way to kind of have his own presence. So we're like, okay, wait a minute, okay. So let's shift it. Let's make air condiment back.

[00:34:27] And then we still have to find a cottonmouth. And I mean at this point, like everything else has been cast including Alphrey as Mariah who we decided to keep older and make them related as cousins as opposed to being more

[00:34:43] than the same age brother and sister, which I would, which I didn't realize at the time was what have been very close to the dynamic that war and what's in my arms. So we and I'm splitting this play in the age difference with a daughter at a different.

[00:34:57] And so we're just running out of actors. We're like, look everyone's cast and we got a date and like who are we going to get the play cottonmouth? And you know, they get to the point where we're just kind of like, okay, like who's left

[00:35:13] and Lorraine may feel to cast all the marbles shows and also of course with a partner also cast house cards. Right. And you know, it's definitely that as far as I'm concerned best in the business. Lorraine has, what have you thought of in her Shalali?

[00:35:30] I'm like the dude for 4400. Like like, you know, yeah, he's dope. And at the same time it's like I, I do them as Remi on house a card. But, oh, Remi is just such a nurturing guy.

[00:35:44] Even though he's got a cold side of it, I mean he's basically a nurturing guy. He's a good guy. I'm like, like, caught my, like at the time I can see it. But she's like trust me, this, you know, martial law is special. It's what's said.

[00:35:59] And I thought about it and then there was this interview that Martiala did where he was talking about hip hop. And I can just sense from the interview that he really felt the music in the same way that I did.

[00:36:16] Now it's okay and all of a sudden agreed, like okay, like, you know, we've got a great mariah. We know that we have an incredible new cage. Yeah. We've got an actor that's going to play Diamondback that we think is really dynamic.

[00:36:32] One small missic, who I had been friends and worked with, with Dory and Missic, you know, on Southland. So it was funny because, you know, he auditioned for shades and then she was basically off camera reading sides to the hand.

[00:36:49] And then he was reading dialogue off camera for her which he was auditioning for Missy Night. And, you know, it was one of those things where we saw her on tape was like, oh my God, who was this? And then Charles, yes, small.

[00:37:01] And then boom, like two and two together, like wow. Yeah. It was clear that you know, she was Missy. Yeah. And then to pay her back for her excellent performance in season one, you bring her husband on board for season two and killing.

[00:37:14] So, well, well, well, and all the all that you've seen is in a minute. But the funny part about everything coming together was you, you finally, you know, and then okay, Charles had worked with Theo Rossi on, on the sons of Anarchy and was like,

[00:37:32] you know, shades like he'd be really a choice. And, and Charles, you know what I'm saying? Like I like to go audition and Charles is like, you know, trust me anytime you have a chance to cast Theo, cast Theo. So we did.

[00:37:47] And then we get my heart's luck. We didn't audition. You know, it was one of those things. Okay, like we're at a time, we're gonna, we're gonna trust his body of work.

[00:37:59] And then we got to New York and then we got to rehearsals and then we, you know, it was past the table rate when we asked you, you know, because Paul McGregor and we shot

[00:38:12] episodes one and two, we shot in blocks mean that we shot parts of both episodes simultaneously because we had saved director. Mm-hmm. But from the first moment that Maherslow walked on set as caught in mouth, I think the first

[00:38:27] scene that we shot with him as caught in mouth was actually the barbershop scene and see it in episode two. Okay. Um, man, when he came in and he basically gave, you know, that whole performance. Okay, mind you like, first two episodes, I wrote the first two episodes.

[00:38:49] Um, but when you're watching like, particularly with the way that Paul shot and watching like these performances, I forgot I wrote a shit. I was sitting there on set and it's like, like, like, I just want to act play like, like, oh my god.

[00:39:06] And it was just the depth that he had as the character. It caused us as a writer's home. I called, you know, the writers, the majority of the writers were so back in LA.

[00:39:17] So I called, I call the writers who knows like, yo, we got to rethink this cotton mouth thing. Because it made me realize all of our stuff with him was almost too much dashed

[00:39:27] toward it because he was bringing such heat in so much resonance to the character where we were like, okay, we have to retone like everything that we're doing. And then at the same time, Maherslow is constantly asking questions about backstew it. Why do I like music?

[00:39:44] Why am I doing this and why? And the thing is, here's a secret to show running. I don't know shit. But you can never say that to an actor. Of course, you always have to know what's going on and have the answers because the job

[00:40:01] is you constantly get questions. And so it's something I'm learning from raising three kids. It's like just sticking something and be confident. And you know, it'll work itself out. So Maherslow's asking these questions about like the backstory, this and that.

[00:40:16] And then because he's asking the questions, it's making us think differently. So I'm thinking about the possible backstory of Mahermable. I've been at the same time. A Kayla Cooper and a Daedar are both talking about different aspects of being black women

[00:40:36] in terms of just like, you know, things that we talked about in the room like color consciousness. And, you know, and all these different things that are just informing character. And then finally, this moment that actually I based on something that happened to a family

[00:40:57] friend and in terms of, you know, the tragedy of Pete's treatment of Mariah. And, and also what was interesting is, and this is crazy. Like in the first episode, you'll notice how Jacob Vargas is saying something to

[00:41:16] Marishalab, but, you know, to caught him up basically that, you know, on Bumblepeak was a good guy. And this is one kind of offset look from Mariah. That was completely accident. It was just, we just, it was just an off-take that we just like, just an angle.

[00:41:29] It was a mistake that that was even in the cut. But you look at it, like when you look at Afreeze expressing when Uncle Pete's name is mentioned, and he looks off in the distance, you like, oh, what is that? But what's behind that? Yeah.

[00:41:42] And then of course, you just take that look that was an accident on set. And then they're, there's some kind of bitterness there. What could that have been? What could it have been that happened? That would cause Mariah in the situation to kill her cousin.

[00:41:55] Because at first, the first way we had scripted it was very just like kind of plotting. It was like okay, you know, she sees a moment, she takes it.

[00:42:02] But then when we got into the real kind of deepness of it and we talked to the rumor about what we could do. And then we talked about this and then in final version, it's just like when we went on that personal

[00:42:11] level, it just took it to a whole not a level. But it's probably all that is we made people fall so in love with the tragedy of caught mouth and the tragedy of fire and that they're, they're, they're giving us, killing them got off. Yeah.

[00:42:25] And so it kind of basically, it, the trajectory for the rest of the season was hard because you're doing a lot of different things, you know, eight from 13 or to a certain extent kind of, look how to reset.

[00:42:39] But I don't think that we understood at the time because when you do all these things in ones and because you're not on broadcast because you're not putting up these episodes you know, week after week, you have to just swing for the fences because you don't know

[00:42:52] if you're right or you're wrong. Yeah. Yeah. And so, wind up filming this and putting it out and then watching the reactions that first week in. Yeah. I'm just devastated now. Angry people wore it. Come on.

[00:43:05] Did you take anything from that say with even just with bringing John McIver and Bushmaster because like the thing I really liked as well with the Bushmaster was you kind of got the sense that he was going to be this, you know, he's getting stronger and stronger

[00:43:20] even though there was a price to pay. But then you actually kind of made what who I suppose were, at least Mia's an audience member at the time thinking was going to be the big bad and he just kind of diminishes as he moves towards the end.

[00:43:33] He kind of, it's like a reverse hero in a sense. And I really liked that how, you know, he's that crowning moment where he takes Holmes paradise and then soon after it just diminishes. It's like keep that power. I think slip through his fingers.

[00:43:52] I think his right hand man talks about he got to the top of a hill or something, saw the view but he couldn't kind of retain it. It was like it was really, really good. Well, thank you. I mean, we plan some of that.

[00:44:04] I mean, essentially what it was is that we knew second time around that we were then to have sustained villains. But you want to up the stakes in such a way that it's not predictable.

[00:44:20] We were lucky enough to have, you know, with Mustafa Shakira, it's like I mean man, he just inhabited that role in ways that like again, like a verse like like he just like, yeah.

[00:44:33] The other thing that was interesting about it was that again, when people asked me what it's like to work for Marvel and Netflix and what I say, this isn't even, this isn't me being diplomatic. You have two very passionate companies that have an intimate knowledge of their audiences

[00:44:54] and from that passion comes very strong opinions and part of the gift and the curse of being a showrunner is you have to navigate those opinions. So what to listen to and also what you ignore because the thing is is that as it said,

[00:45:12] success has many fathers, failures and orphaned. If something doesn't work, it's going to be your fault. The one thing you have to remember, is not about being arrogant in what you ignore and

[00:45:24] what you listen to, it's just that you have to, they're not sure they want to have the answer. So after remember that sometimes and sometimes you have to say we're doing this, we're doing that.

[00:45:35] The hardest part of the jobs sometimes is like you've got 20 to 40 people that want to go wonder actually and you're the one person saying this is what we're going. It's hard. Yes, it's hard for the job.

[00:45:47] Thing was, was that initially when the whole thing with introducing bushmaster is we were going to basically base the season on bosse and bosse metaphors. Right. One of my favorite bosse quotes of all time is Mike Tyson when he said, everybody's

[00:46:10] got a plan until they get punched in the face. It's true. Like to me like one of my favorite, you know, HBO, like 24, 7's was the lead up to the fight with Ricky Hat and then Pocky.

[00:46:28] Like it was such a such a great documentary because it was just like you really get to know Ricky Hat and like there's all of this, all this backstory with Floyd May, with Floyd May where the father training him and and Pocky, I'll be trained by Freddie Roach.

[00:46:44] And I always was so convinced because it was so compelling that Ricky Hat was it was going to handle Pocky out. You get into that fight and then when Pocky on Pocky on knocked him out, I thought he killed him.

[00:46:57] I literally thought he died for Randy and was the first boxing match that I let my sons watch and they were like six years old, I saw my god I can't believe you know, why somebody's still great but again that's the point.

[00:47:10] Like when somebody knocks your ass out, you don't know what you're up against until you're there. That was kind of one of the metaphors with season okay, what if Luke finally faces somebody back in knock his ass out and that was kind of the introduction of Bushmaster and

[00:47:27] we were saying is that when he's like you're on the loop cage and you can't blast me you can't blink, you know the initial structure was that he was going to say that and then somebody was going to come out of the woodwork.

[00:47:39] The hip hop metaphor was it was like L.O. Hool-Jay versus Kumo D. right? It was like if you say that you're the baddest you say that you're the greatest someone who's going to tell you how you like me now.

[00:47:49] And that's what we're going for at first but you know Marvel and Netflix wouldn't settle for that, they're like you have to have a better reason. You have to have a reason for why somebody's coming from Jamaica to do all this and

[00:48:01] and at first you basically you say you say you please change but then you just run out of excuses. Then after a while it was like okay like what could be the thing that would give Bushmaster this claim to harm him because he's Jamaican.

[00:48:16] How would you do that? And then of course you know the other musical metaphor of course was since hip hop also has Jamaican roots in terms of interpretation of how the music is played in terms of the sound systems and everything else like.

[00:48:33] Interaction that evolution musically you know and using that also as a metaphor in the show, how does software together and then you were thinking we're thinking we're not okay. And so what it did was it forced us to come up with the backstory of orange paradise.

[00:48:46] It's just to come up with the backstory of this betrayal. And then once we figured out what that backstory was and the connections between the McGibberes and Stokes' and this way of kind of looking at two different immigrant experiences

[00:49:01] from American South to the North versus the Jamaican or the Caribbean experience moving to New York and how there's always kind of been that has always been this kind of faith and resentment between both camps and looking at that and then the music and everything

[00:49:18] else it's just it just gave us this whole trajectory for the season. And on one end it gave us we understood that Bushmaster had a much deeper story. Yeah, yeah. But part of it was that once we got into what happens with Mariah and Mariah so you know

[00:49:34] retaliation. Once her browser was burned down we knew that okay we're going to have the opportunity to introduce the real Mariah. But we yeah. And the first part was episode nine with the twist of Tilda's real father. Yeah.

[00:49:50] And then after that is unpacked it allows Mariah and her revenge to become the true big bad. Yeah. But the episode 10 was just like oh my god. Yeah. Because the constant game that Marble fans play when they talk about the Netflix shows

[00:50:08] and the ABC shows as well where they're trying to find who's the greatest villain in all of these shows really for us when it got to the end of that of that season and we have Mariah Delard effectively setting up her crime business in prison and you're going

[00:50:21] okay well here we go now you've got the best villain of all the shows you've got 23, 12, 26 episodes to set her up as a best villain. And then you do that. And then you have her daughter come in, give her a sweet kiss on the lips and leave and

[00:50:34] that's the end of Mariah. This totally shook our hosts as you heard when you were hearing the finale podcast. Chris and John particularly were kind of going oh what happens can we have her back as a ghost next season maybe? Yeah. So can she hold the cage?

[00:50:49] Like it's just she's such a great character and like after wood or just the way she delivered it because you felt sympathy for her and you know hearing about her story about Pete and then all of a sudden just what she was saying to tilde and you're just

[00:51:05] like oh what are you doing and then you think she's kind of learning those you know those skills and then she goes but she leaves that final spos cursed to loot cage as well and it's just like what a fantastic thing.

[00:51:20] I mean yeah I was like shocked but then it's like that creative choice that you know yourself and I say the rice is ruined is was awesome. Well it was the best thing it's like you know the one thing that's really important

[00:51:35] the other important aspect of sure running is that you have to have rapport with your cast yeah sometimes what happens in these situations is that you know because writers tend to be very just I don't want to characterize writers as stereotype writers but we tend

[00:51:51] to kind of be insular and shy because of the nature what we do and so as a result sometimes certain resentments can kind of get in because it's like I wrote it one way you're doing

[00:52:02] this other way and but my perspective on actors has always been different my perspective on actors honestly is that like they have so much power and that if you can figure out a way to collaborate where you can get the best out of them sometimes that means more

[00:52:20] dialogue sometimes that means less but we can figure out what that rapport is and then have the scripts match that rapport it allows you to go places that you might not have been able to go and we're blessed with such incredible actors like my culture like

[00:52:36] Simone Messek like Rosario Dawson like Theo I see like Mustafa like you know Ron and Alfred and so in everybody frankly like I mean you know everybody from character actors to the top of

[00:52:53] the of the call she's so speak come with their A game every day and so one of the things that I do is that I always talk to the actors at the very beginning and during the season about like you know what's

[00:53:08] happening and you know in particular like with without we I was just like you know we're going to go places this season and then I was funny like we were out of we were at a restaurant we were at at so

[00:53:23] house in Hollywood when I went I was kind of talking to her about some of the things that were going to happen in the season and I told her the told her revelation and she literally seemed

[00:53:33] to everyone and the rest of us looking like like what the hell is that why is everyone in screaming at this table and then was funny was like as we were getting closer she was like

[00:53:48] she was like I'm I'm gonna die right and you know at that's the point where like some show run a state never tell you actor that they're gonna die because what'll happen is that they're

[00:53:58] gonna start and every scene playing violence and right and but I think through there every most that they're gonna go but it's I mean Alphaze come on she's been around she's a vet I

[00:54:09] said yeah and she said okay and she was like what what Alphaze have you said you know just make sure I don't go out like no puns I'm tough it is what is what she said so it was just like

[00:54:21] okay like again we never want anyone to feel comfortable on this because if you feel comfortable insecure that this person is gonna make it to the end of this journey like you know

[00:54:38] it's gonna get to the point where people are just like yeah you know there's really no jeopardy because you know we know that they're gonna get out of the ropes to perform the the I'm train

[00:54:48] across the tracks you know yes it's like we want people to kind of feel a certain level of jeopardy and that was one of the things about the risk but at the same time also the reward

[00:55:00] of completing that story is that we knew that in getting rid of Mariah in that way it was gonna be a decision that could haunt us the same way that it could like you know that

[00:55:12] losing cotton mouth also haunted us but the reward and the fact that it basically there's there's so much passion that also is making you think about these characters as real people

[00:55:24] and also for she had done I mean she had to go after that after that restaurant massacre I was like Alfred that night was I'm excited I flew up for that scene I mean she was transcending she was just like

[00:55:39] because she was so cold yeah and it's something about like um I think at the time she was kind of nervous about playing it like that and I was just like you know the more not so much you play

[00:55:50] at the scary you are yeah yeah and she played that moment so oh my god so perfectly I'm feeling like I really like you see oh my god crazy easy right but talk about leaning into the fear

[00:56:02] you know you said earlier on that you spent the last two years getting criticized every day for killing off cotton mouth and then you go I'm not gonna do it again but the other main character

[00:56:10] well done you lean into the fear and sometimes got amazing results you know well that and also because I mean it's interesting it's like the same way that um Mariah slowly emerges as a villain

[00:56:21] you're so have the opportunity um and we'll see if hopefully if we give us a season three you know um to explore similar things with with Gabrielle Dennis because the way that she played till

[00:56:34] that like what like one of my favorite moments um of season two is that moment when she says um you know the last joke she's just died my name is Johnson I was like oh it's so close oh my god

[00:56:46] it's like it's absolutely again yeah so good it was one of those moments where even when you script it when the way that she delivered that line it was like there's so many possibilities

[00:56:57] on on book and the thing that's interesting about her is there's good end and there's with a potential for else so without being predictable again another character you can do a lot with. Absolutely I think for me that the really cold moment for tilde is when she's effectively

[00:57:14] telling the funeral organizer that her mom's body's just gonna be burnt in stone and a whole she doesn't care anything about it you know Mariah always thought of herself as kind of the queen

[00:57:21] of Harlem and kind of expecting to see you know the streets lying where people crying when she died you it's such a cold moment from tilde which is just gone no just throwing a throw in a box and throwing

[00:57:32] the throw in a hole you know at fantastic moments. Well I mean and that was the thing because it made the moment when um it was the coldness of the scene in episode nine and and Ian Stokes and

[00:57:46] Maddoans is a script that Clark Johnson directed for episode nine where you get to the moment where Mariah unburdened herself with the entire story of the happen with her with Pete and it's such a

[00:57:58] fascinating scene um without her acting wise it was just powerhouse because on one hand she's making you fall in love with her perspective but then I'm never hand you're seeing how cold she is

[00:58:10] in terms of in terms of telling her daughter that she never loved her is because she can't and after that moment she's like I'm not Mariah dealing more and then at the end of episode

[00:58:20] so it's on Mariah Stokes and then episode 10 you really understand what that really means and it's enough it's like you know season one the cotton mouth death episode was written by a calicooper

[00:58:31] and directed by Andy Goddard and we had the same the same reading for episode 10 of what I love so you know where the thing happens when Mariah makes that that cold choice and everything shifts

[00:58:45] again you know because Mariah makes a murderous choice you know um so it was just one of those things with that just just came together you know and that's one of the most fun of of the job is that when

[00:58:56] you see these moments in and the perfect pairing of of the writing with the acting and you just kind of just watching kind of like you know conducting it's just like man this is a smile yeah so good

[00:59:08] so good I really enjoy how you bring in the historical like in this season with I just said about the African Americans and Jamaican Americans and they're the different roots and then

[00:59:20] the current affairs very much as well like in season one like how important is that to bring in those those touch points of current and historical kind of references because I really enjoyed that

[00:59:36] like I actually even learnt a lot as well like what you know the thing is is that um the thing that I always think about is the fact that Netflix changed the game in terms of

[00:59:52] not just being the service in terms of content and the breath of in varieties of different shows and things that they're on the service but also the fact that you can watch it on your big

[01:00:05] television you can watch it on your laptop and that's already internet based it you can essentially treat the entire show like one big hyperlink right and so it made me realize that okay it's like

[01:00:19] if we kind of hit this sweet spot where people like the show they they can rewatch the show over and over again and learn different things because people fanboys and girls you know fan people

[01:00:30] love Easter eggs oh yeah and so it's one thing if we have a lot of different mar release directions which we which we do throughout and I think the one thing that I showed like you know I

[01:00:39] pride myself on with the show is that like whether tamber tacking or whether it's these little things that kind of like that that that's really just the geek in all of us to say good how

[01:00:48] different ways can we like link this to um to to the shows and then other universes and everything else but with the history it really kind of allows you if you're watching the show the same way

[01:01:01] that you might use shazam to say okay what what song is that it also says cable like some of these names that we're hearing papy mason and you know um you know personally certain and google

[01:01:13] those names all of a sudden having much deeper understanding of our parliament and the deeper understanding of the history yeah and it really kind of allows you to kind of go and these really

[01:01:21] cool places and then you can kind of see how like this fictional marble history links up with real history and so because of the fact that halms paradise is kind of an amount of like small

[01:01:35] paradise and the Linux lounge and some of these legendary Harlem clubs and cotton mouth is kind of personality wise is a mixture of like frank Lucas and Mickey Barnes which is giving him like a musical

[01:01:47] I mean you even go in some of the different directions like honestly like this is gonna give me trouble but like if I could ever spin the show off the spin off that I would do would probably

[01:01:58] be like the club and just stay with the stoics it was super fast you know the power struggle that that um is described of how like it was basically trying to this betrayal between these two

[01:02:14] partners one partner from Jamaica one partner from the south getting the hottest club in Harlem and trying to fend off from both the time mob and the um and then the Irish police presence you know like

[01:02:26] that itself could just be like a whole of you know and no without superpowers I mean thing is of course in the in addition to just these cool moments that that you have between um

[01:02:38] you know Luke and and Danny which of course in the comics of course is powermen in our office yeah you know that many daughters of the dragon moment that you know that you have um and

[01:02:50] have so three um at once is episode that Mark Joes directed um you know that that bar fight yeah and so good you got that great thing I mean thing is is that like you know it's so much

[01:03:03] fun building the world because then you can explore these worlds and so like yes there are times I mean you know and I I I that'd be careful because then what you know

[01:03:15] it's what I've learned is that like I'm not saying there's going to be a spin off on saying this one of the works I'm just we're just talking is it's brand people it's like what

[01:03:24] you cool like you know and that that's one of the things that I think about it's just like how how has always these shows within the show and that they're really interesting and that's part of

[01:03:34] the fun of a ball that's coming together you know to write these exactly like what what's it like uh having like Colleen Wing and like even the iron fist like having them come on to the show as

[01:03:46] well you were saying about like Luke Cage started there on Jessica Jones and you're you're getting these these other characters from from another show but you have the the like the

[01:03:57] dorses of the dragon as they all those touch points of the say here is for higher kind of aspects as well and what was it what was it like kind of taking those characters and how you weave the

[01:04:08] meat I suppose to the to the cage. Well the thing was was that we just have the attitude of yes we know that they're on other shows and people are also coming off of having them together

[01:04:22] in the defenders but how how would they act differently in the Luke Cage universe and just being really selfish about that like saying that okay it's like we're not going to eight defenders we're

[01:04:33] not going to eight but iron fist we're going to basically take these characters and treat them differently in our book. It's the same way how like when you have these crossovers something you know

[01:04:44] sometimes where like X-Men would appear in fantastic four or yeah you know they don't quite act the same way or if safe example like Franklin Richards is treated one way when you know with fantastic four but when he's amongst fellow mutants and that's McComac he's completely different

[01:05:04] yeah you know it's it's kind of like you know the same kind of thing and so yes the characters are you know we know where they are but we're just basically just kind of expanding

[01:05:16] them in enhancing them just for the the selfish benefits of our universe yeah so on one hand we're able to kind of get into a much for you know both you know misty and Colleen

[01:05:30] and kind of like you know late the bread crumbs for what could become something yeah no hands that's all right we got we got some good bits of that on iron fist I just want to ask that as well

[01:05:41] because you obviously now have a monomissic over on iron fist are you really protective of your version of the character to make sure that they don't go against what you've set up well I mean you know

[01:05:51] the thing is is that like world friends like this is showrunners like you know myself and Eric Olson who's running Daredevil and bacon mess never was running iron fist and Melissa who's running Jessica Jones

[01:06:06] and then back in the day when both Marco Romeras and Doug Petrie were at where at the helm of daredevil and then also co-steemed the night who was on that first try to work

[01:06:19] marble like we're we're we're our own support group you know of course can't forget Steve Lifewood I'm Steven I were new each other from the show on this training program so we're like

[01:06:31] and when we're neighbors in the studio city for a few years so like we all know each other yeah we all talk we all talk we talk story we don't talk story like we did the nuances of each other

[01:06:40] scripts but you know I can always go by their right as rooms they can come by mine and we can say hey what about this what about that and and you know we're all kind of respectful and then you know Jeff and the

[01:06:51] power structure of marble are always making sure that we're not you know colliding in different things where what our story lines yeah and it's just it's very kind of I kind of liking it to

[01:07:02] so what it must be like to work at Pixar right yeah well you have your own individual movies but like Pete doctor and you stand and all those guys that they're like just in Jennifer you know

[01:07:12] they they talk and so it's kind of the same thing um for iron fist we just knew that we wanted to um because there was this theme of Luke's anger throughout the entire season like

[01:07:27] let's talk to somebody who has to channel anger in a better way which is cheap which is then so let's have a let's have a be Danny yeah and let's have it be a different Danny than the

[01:07:41] Danny that we've seen in you know season one of a fireface because if you know in order to balance in channel you know you have to have focus and so what this perspective give to a non-believer

[01:07:53] like Luke yeah and that was kind of the fun of this kind of you know we're having like one of those 48 hours midnight run kind of like relationship between these two characters and um that was

[01:08:06] just kind of just the fun we have we had with the episode it even even having a character look like like like turk like you know because rock Morgan is one of my favorite people on earth he's

[01:08:16] having that scene where he's able to you know to see Danny say hey man you know you're you're ours don't just push your trade like like wait turk turk's in a horse like it's just these

[01:08:27] little things he's little moments of humor that then you can just add in there like that sometimes you have to defend because sometimes the powers that feel like well that's not room for a joke and

[01:08:36] you're like like the last school but it's cool because it's Rob's saying it when Rob says it is funny and many of the things you can tell me like okay yeah but like but it's just basically

[01:08:47] building those moments then of course for me it's just like musically like um you know a Kayla Cooper script for for 10 was um you know this that you know the iron fist episode was fantastic and then

[01:09:00] from musical standpoint for me it's like I knew come on martial arts got me Wu Tan absolutely it already kind of established that template um the song that I originally wanted to use was Wu Tan

[01:09:11] planning enough enough with over and that moment that would have just been so that was uh it would have been another internet break situation the same way it's not y'all was for the initial trailer

[01:09:22] but we didn't get it cleared yeah what you think the song that we use I still think works really well so good yeah yeah yeah yeah because my whole thing is like you know I don't care that

[01:09:33] anybody else uses Wu Tan it's kind of the right Wu Tan it's got to be the combination of all these different things um I've been obsessed with placing music with story ever since um watching the

[01:09:46] pilot of my advice right uh you know with Phil Collins in the air yep you know that whole thing is like I probably watched that one scene like every other month well because every time you watch it like

[01:10:00] like you notice it like a little things like like whether it's the sound of um of Phil of Michael Thomas loading the shotgun and just the music kind of creeps up at the certain point I mean like

[01:10:10] all all the stuff that when you finally mix in that episode you get like even getting all the different nuances up didn't really geek out on that kind of shit like I if that's the kind of stuff

[01:10:18] like I love um or that um that that Tarantino and Spike Lee and Scorsese use music yeah um to form visuals you know Danny Boyle as well yeah like you know again huge influences that

[01:10:36] that I just lately rip off of the show but they always they always say one of the kind of screenwriting rules is not to base a scene on a specific song because then you won't get the right

[01:10:45] to do you do you write a random that to try and write a single I'm gonna use a Wu Tan clan song here or do you say write this the scene and then I'll go and find a song to fit us or what's your

[01:10:56] notes on that I write the song for the scene and if I can get the song I lose the scene right but I because it's it's it's bespoke it's like you know or you're lucky in that or I'm lucky

[01:11:11] in that I've got um Adrian Young and I'll Lee Shane Muhammad you know because there's such a powerhouse composers and musicians and they can pull that they can pull off something if if I

[01:11:26] if I'm unlucky enough to be able to clear the moment that that I'm looking for a musical but yet like I I I constantly write a music you know all the time and do you both have to answer

[01:11:36] anybody that you've reviewed in the past and maybe didn't give them a glowing review and now you're looking for a piece of music that do you ever both had to somebody in the industry because of that or

[01:11:46] no actually no but it's it's because of things that I've written in the past that gave me the perspective that I had when I was criticized so for a sample it's like I wrote one of the most

[01:12:00] scathing reviews ever of the public enemy album music in our message and I mean I called it a what I called it a 13 track spiral Dante a spiral hip hop L is what I call that or when I

[01:12:19] reviewed um Dalea Sol's stakes is high um now here's the thing on in terms of in terms of the Chuck D record in terms of that public enemy record I still hate that record right but

[01:12:32] the Dalea Sol record I wasn't ready for it just it it was such a different musical turn that I guess wasn't ready for it and wasn't until weeks later that I realized the awful mistake

[01:12:44] that I made because the record is absolutely brilliant but it and and I learned the power of review because I essentially killed that record well because my I was writing for a few times at the time

[01:12:55] and my because I'm I was relatively respected as a reviewer my you got syndicated and it was all over the place yeah and so it's just like it's one of those things where I learned

[01:13:06] like you know even you have to let stuff marinated before you write it but hope respect and but here's the thing even though I did start record Chuck D is always been incredibly respectful and

[01:13:20] we've we've actually become friends yeah and in the case of Dalea Sol it's like you know I'm still cool with with with postinus and and in those guys you know that I've known I tried remember

[01:13:33] so I tried for a few years and so it's just like what I've learned is that when criticism comes from a certain place on one hand if you're being criticized I try to act like Chuck D right

[01:13:46] I try to be I try to understand that people have a job and understand that job and there might be things I don't like but you know I'm still gonna treat everybody with with with respect

[01:13:57] and then when it comes to what happened with me in Dalea Sol I remember also that sometimes when people write things you know they they might change your my later on they might have a different

[01:14:13] perspective given time and so that you can't get so locked into your you know disappointment or even anger about what someone's written or what somebody says that you know you just kind of just okay

[01:14:27] well as being in stem and it just kind of goes off the rails from there. The way we kind of approach what we do really is seeing it from the perspective of well there's nobody out there aiming to

[01:14:35] make something bad it's not the intention so we need to look at it for what they're trying to do what they're attending to do and and I think that's the only way we can criticize things coming from

[01:14:45] that perspective because coming out of some like some people that have comma certain shows with this idea that I wanted to see the comic book on screen and that's not what they delivered for me

[01:14:54] therefore I don't like it on its terror would be the wrong way for us to do what we do would make it a very boring a very boring podcast as I said before if we were just criticizing

[01:15:04] things not coming directly from the comic book you know. Well that and also it's just like you know like through for example like I'm a huge Harry Potter fan like both of the books and the movies

[01:15:15] I'm actually a Hufflepuff by the way. Not too bad but the thing is is that if you notice with the movies the third movie the I'll sponsor Quarong movie it's the movie where things elevated absolutely because

[01:15:32] Chris Columbus you know who oh for better for worse did the exact adaptation of the books and put virtually every scene from the books on screen yeah it was so static and so

[01:15:48] stayed yeah franchise could have very easily just kind of become like diary diary of of one be capable superpowers it could have just been it could have just stayed in the in the kid's genre

[01:15:59] and that would have been it but then a sponsor came around from the third one he said okay it's like let's take some departure from the books let's screw it up a bit let's let's really kind of get

[01:16:09] lean into into the British and stuff it yeah you know like like like let let let's have some moments that that people from outside of bread mine I'm fully understand it let's also kind of you know

[01:16:20] get deeper into the boarding school experience like let's really kind of do some things and interpret rather than just have directly you know from from books even and then all sudden it's just

[01:16:32] like you saw the whole the whole possibilities of what of the cinematic universe and then also you know JK to a credit every single they went out love a reading the books is that every single book

[01:16:45] the books matured with their audience absolutely yeah if people were reading the books at nine in ten by the time they got the last book in their 17 and 18 the the story telling match that

[01:16:56] yeah absolutely and so it's really kind of the same thing really give me a completely different perspective on adaptation it's like you know don't be afraid to change things yeah don't be afraid to go there because the one thing is is that if people just want the interpretation

[01:17:13] of the comics the comics are right there they have the comics absolutely yeah they can always go back and always you know enough of them to get pissed but they think I was they got all shut you

[01:17:23] think I was chef TV off or close their computer screen and shut their phone it's like a back of the comics the comics are right there yeah you know but at the same time it's like if I just

[01:17:33] gave a translation directly of the comics I think people in seeing that would be disappointed you know I think you kind of have to try to find that balance you know between both mediums

[01:17:45] to certain extent and I think regardless of the way that you adopted it's still going to be your voice is still going to be you looking at the book and how you want to adapt it if you're

[01:17:52] going to do it that way it would still not be everybody's adaptation of it either you know well that that's the real challenge is it's like when you keep like what you keep out what would you put in you've also people don't necessarily understand you have the limitations

[01:18:06] of budget I think also what people don't understand is like people say well cast this first one cast that person it's like you know I am db is the best the worst thing to happen

[01:18:19] because it's great that you can have credits and pictures of everybody at once but then it's just like it's just not as simple as like you go to but this person is person yeah

[01:18:27] yeah oh oh fantastic it doesn't work like that it because there's so many limitations in terms of negotiating the contract who can do what when and how is this like I mean honestly we're lucky anything it's made you're lucky anything that's crazy trying to you know being on

[01:18:45] inside of that I have a completely different viewpoint of what it takes for things to come together as opposed to like that like when I was a fan while they're all so it's easy but just get this

[01:18:54] and do this and pay this and you know no there's so many different like moments of things coming together in front of the part one of my closest friends of producer named Rudy Langless Rudy was one of the executive producers on the movie the Denzel movie Hurricane.

[01:19:13] I once asked him what a producer is and he gave me the best definition ever and I said I said Rudy really what does a producer do he said man all a producer is is every project wants to die

[01:19:26] find the place this and the only thing a producer does is it keeps the project alive of here she is a project alive and that's it fantastic so best interpretation of it

[01:19:36] of her and that and that really with this whole thing is it's just like whether it's the writers room whether it's it's you know these networks we're just trying to keep the thing alive

[01:19:46] there's so many different ways of doing that some days are great some days are really difficult but you balance it all out and you hope that you create something that people love

[01:19:58] because we love it just as much yeah yeah let's close our ice with question on what you're doing coming up very soon I think you've got a movie and coming up pretty soon that you wrote

[01:20:09] which I know our audience will be interested in here about could you too? What can tell us? The only thing I can tell you is that I'm really excited about it now the reason I'm not

[01:20:23] hedging is because I wrote the first three drafts and you said research to Lone and I you know also collaborated and then a third writer was brought in and the way that it works

[01:20:36] with the writers guild is that final credits still have to be determined so as much as like I love my experience working on it I'm not going to feel like completely comfortable saying yeah like it's

[01:20:49] you know I wrote it until the final credits are to turn gets you right what I will say is that having had that experience it was incredible it was so much fun working on that movie and regardless

[01:21:04] of however the final credits turn out I'm proud to have to have written you know versions of it and you know it's just it was just so much fun you know like I grew up with the Rocky Rose

[01:21:20] and I was like yeah and creating with such an emotional experience so good and getting the opportunity to you know right for you know moments with with Michael B. Juehord and also first to

[01:21:36] be a superstar love you know Rocky is now making and having a new fighter and you know in the term just like the the shift and also like you know the one thing that I talked with Stallone about

[01:21:48] you know because one of the reasons I got the gig was that he was you know he a huge fan of a blue cage yeah and the one thing I said to him I said look I said like essentially

[01:22:01] Rocky the Rocky movies are their own universe you know it's like it's reality but at the same time these fictional characters and there's so many fictional characters I mean it's just like with the

[01:22:12] fighters and their back stories it's like it's the same kind of contained thing and so they're Rocky Geeks the same way that there are you know comic books and certain templates that have been established

[01:22:24] and so you know I basically as a Rocky fan boy to be able to kind of play in that sandbox was not man it was fun and also you know they had the other part of the fun was when I was you know

[01:22:38] co-writing with with with with a successful alum is you be right we'd be talking story or we would be writing certain things then all of a sudden he would start doing the Rocky voice

[01:22:49] and erad say think that rock you know yeah like I'm on the phone trying to keep my face composed like now I'm on Rocky is interesting because he's done Rocky for so long it's like

[01:23:04] sebesters to alone is not Rocky but then when he does Rocky you're like oh my god yes it's rock like like oh my it's he did like it's a certain turn of his voice you know I call

[01:23:15] he shit I'm talking about boy yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah and must be sensual to him as well because you know obviously originally created because he couldn't get work that's that's what he was doing

[01:23:24] he was working on this script and setting up this movie for himself because he couldn't get work so it's so central to to so vester saloon and it is the reason he hasn't career is because of

[01:23:32] you know the wonderful Oscar nominated fantastic Rocky movie so must be so personal to them well that and then I don't think I don't think so our saloon gets enough credit as a writer

[01:23:45] as well as as a director because people really remember the fact that he directed Rocky 2 he directed Rocky 3 directed Rocky 4 John Abelson came back for Rocky 5 and then Rocky Abawa he also directed you know the thing about about working with him is that in collaborating

[01:24:08] writing with him it was it was a very fun easy collaboration and he knows the stuff like he's he's not slouch like yeah that was what was so great was like you're writing with him you're like

[01:24:20] okay oh yeah okay so it makes sense like yeah like you know this isn't a case of a star over stepping he literally created created this interpretation of this world and so it was one of the the

[01:24:36] most fun parts of actually you know working on it what was that yeah yeah for our fellow defenders who were listening I just want to compliment a chio coker for having the the cage Muhammad Ali poster

[01:24:50] right behind your head like as if you have your own Harlan's paradise fantastic choice on your wall that obviously came from you then that decision to have that as the first poster that they put

[01:25:00] up in to replace big smalls on the wall of Harlan's paradise yeah yeah yeah yeah where we rise is he the most inspirational person that Lucas thinks might be able to get him through

[01:25:12] the challenge is that he's going to face in the future in Harlan's paradise well the other metaphor the other box of metaphor that we use for season two I believe it's I believe it's the jackman

[01:25:24] he's metaphor I'm not sure if I'm from wrong please do not roast me on Twitter or I'm a polygons we're like it's it's it's it's it's this notion of fall seven times rise eight

[01:25:35] and so what makes Ali my favorite boss in champion is the fact that he's not undefeated because what it means is that those times that he lost he he risked at all and he and he came

[01:25:51] up short but it didn't stop him from getting back in the ring and coming back in like I you know if I think he was actually undefeated in his rematches yeah yeah and and and and also the way

[01:26:07] that he regained you know his title number times yeah and that kind of is really for me the metaphor of who Lucas is that he will get knocked down at times but he will pick himself up

[01:26:20] whether it's the season one the whole Judas bullet thing or whether it's season two it's like you get past Judas bullet and someone kicks your ass and then he ultimately he gets past it

[01:26:30] the thing that we did with the bush master fights was that we kind of framed those on Ali Fration one Ali Fration two Ali Fration three nice you know like just turns to the back and forth and because if you people remember that I lead lost the first

[01:26:46] Fration fight the one of the garden and then you know the final our final moment our our you know our thrill in Manila to certain extent was you know the fight in episode 12

[01:27:03] in the safe room you know yeah so my favorite fight though was the fight that Nose and Sheldon Sheldon episode six on high bridge oh yes yeah that was cool yeah you know and also the

[01:27:17] fact that we got to use Bob Marley's son of shining you know in that way but you know and you also using that that was the the least crash Perry version of it so it's it's got a

[01:27:29] sort of grit to it you know that that was different than the one that Bob Marley recorded years later as I think I'm on Kaya yeah absolutely John any last questions for Ed just one I suppose and that's

[01:27:43] that comes up to the the hybrid actually with that fight because yeah bush master uses a little bit of magic powder all sort of kind of that voodoo reference I suppose and I am massive

[01:27:58] Dr. Strange fan I was kind of thinking was the this idea of bringing a mystical size to Luke Cage through John McIver and the McIver family and the journey he had to go through and like

[01:28:12] certainly for me I would love to know your thoughts on possibly bringing brother Vuzu into Marvel Netflix that earthy magic was really cool I was really surprised by it actually as well well the the

[01:28:26] one thing that we avoided was was actually using any real anything real like anything real like anything any real rule to any real yeah or anything like that like I we definitely you know even though it's

[01:28:39] a visual reference we we we stayed away out of respect to those because yeah we kind of we kind of stayed and and kept things kind of vague and mystical to certain extent you know the same way

[01:28:52] that for example people have asked questions about bush master's fighting style saying well hey it's he should make him but he's using up our Brazilian fighting style of capware but my whole thing was like

[01:29:06] okay we're talking about a fighting style that came from directly from you know slaves freedom of sense so we're getting criticism when using this fighting style rather than using an Asian martial art where the whole thing that we're trying to say is that it's kind of a mixture

[01:29:28] of not just capware but it's also if we're staying in the metaphor the maroons and of you know people that freed themselves and and the fighting styles that they had the mask to make it look like

[01:29:40] a dance which every capware you know break dancing also is influenced by capware as well as its influence by Asian martial arts so it's kind of missing things up I mean you know what we want to

[01:29:53] do and it's also the thing that happens with with the other marbles series like like when they kind of talk about some of the more spiritual elements of the hand you know it's the idea of ancient

[01:30:06] magic and of magic really being science before it had a name yeah and and and kind of the combination of both because our technology would seem like science to people that that

[01:30:21] weren't exposed to it right it's a complex and that perspective of of doing it is just really more about about that than it is about anything specific although what's cool about you know characters that you mentioned whether it's Stephen Strange or further voodoo is the fact that

[01:30:38] in the maroon universe you have these these mystical connections to other alternate universes and everything else yeah so yeah I think Jones just waiting for that moment where Licades walks past

[01:30:50] the sanctum sanctorum in the middle of the city or sets up shop there as the defenders come back together or something like that today yeah yeah yeah some day on something show that our

[01:31:00] co-crater thank you so much for joining us I know we've taken up so much of your time and I think we could talk for another two hours didn't even get to ask you about DW or our favors new

[01:31:09] character on the show who was fantastic throughout this season and by the end of the season we were just totally feeling his hearts on the screen I thought I had you did it from a character that was

[01:31:19] a funny throwaway guy at the beginning and then come to the end of the season and love them okay well he's last thing okay um Jeremiah craft plays DW and literally he just had that one line you know

[01:31:32] that that kind of funny thing that that I'd written for him in the pilot for Luke Cage and he was so good it was just like we got to figure out a way to bring it back you know DB and then finally

[01:31:44] when we filmed the finale of season one you know the Clark Clark Johnson finale yeah we had a moment that I fought so hard to keep in and end up getting cut where Luke before Luke

[01:32:00] and Claire walk away and he's filming them and then you know he puts the camera down he and he says you know the brother needs discretion and he puts the camera down we had another

[01:32:11] moment where they kept talking where he said what's your name kidding me he said he said you say you know DW Griffith have ever seen the movie Birth of a Nation and Luke says no he says don't

[01:32:22] and they also and it was like it was just this cool moment where you would have actually heard him say his full name and everything but um that end I'm getting cut but then that was the thing

[01:32:35] was from that moment okay it's like we didn't start off with his character being DW but okay here's a way by name of his character activist character that we can bring him into the full canon

[01:32:44] of the Luke Cage universe and so then for season two we just extended it okay so now we can bring him into the shop and now he's trying to monetize being Luke's chronicle of our boxing metaphor

[01:32:56] you know by making him Howard Bengham you know it's a thing where it's like you know you can understand how you have this kid who's video is ape in him and in documenting the Luke Cage

[01:33:07] and you know if less I mean Jeremiah's so much he's bringing so much energy and so much fun like he again has become you know another character that we now you know think about in a cool way

[01:33:20] the same way that also like sugar yeah um what that was again um you know when Sean did that you know Sean and Sean's an old friend we actually worked together on the movie notorious he played

[01:33:34] Shubnytonatorious yeah um one of the interesting Easter eggs of that scene is that that but that a plunge Luke the break his hand on Luke's chin yeah he played Shubnyton the movie shatter comps it really Sean who played sugar played Shubnytonatorious so we they called themselves

[01:33:51] the two shugs enough and so the thing was was that when Sean had that line you know I don't even like these niggas man like he was so the way he read the line it was just so funny it was like

[01:34:05] we got to find more things that's got to do yes and there were so many opportunities over the last two seasons the kill them off and it just kind of I can never do it because like we just

[01:34:17] we just love we we loved it you know and so as a result it was funny like you find these moments where you can make a character deeper and um we decided this moment where I'll get like sugar in

[01:34:31] this weird way and Luke making going in this potential new direction could kind of come to his new you know his new on Bobby fish yeah and it just works so well in that in that last episode

[01:34:42] um each down to that moment where like he walks up to him he's almost like his valet and and he like whispers in his ear you know kind of see kind of becoming like a combination of Tom Hagen and and and

[01:34:55] near you know and of course like you know it was funny because I'm so huge guy father fan like the the fact that we were able to kind of set up that shot where the door closes on

[01:35:09] you see the same way that it all still closed on k is like if your your family movies I don't people oh my god you know the same shit I never think like it was it was like Alex it was great so

[01:35:20] good you know and you've also got to double you set up as the new pops now hopefully if we do get a season 3 we have a new Switzerland possibly what I can either confirm that of course of course

[01:35:31] the the only thing I will say is a Jeremiah Crabs is a great act and I enjoy working with them is it's the Hollywood good stuff good stuff wait that up say although though although it's funny

[01:35:42] though it's funny when we talk about killing people off um I was paneled with um with Frankie Faison recently yeah and Frankie um is the only character that's been in all four songs of lands movies

[01:35:54] yes and I drove down state as said you know you you survived four handable left and movie only two episodes of Luke K. Lovers love us and once again I'll say thank you so much to you I'd very co-worker hopefully our

[01:36:10] fellow defenders have enjoyed listening to your discussion about season 2 with us on different TV podcasts and hopefully you will also get confirmation soon of the K.C. and 3 and you'll come back

[01:36:19] and join us in chat to us again if I say update the next season or anything at all really you've got our phone number and also absolutely and also if you go back and edit this and it's all complete

[01:36:29] nonsense and it's been just been we're laying it and you guys have more specific questions and then let's let's let's do this over again so I can actually answer the question for you and we love to listen

[01:36:38] it's a great one yeah I'm looking forward to listening back to it to be honest so yeah thank you so much for joining us we will hopefully talk to you soon yeah thank you massive thanks really to you

[01:36:47] thank you no and thank you just not only on behalf of Luke K. but also on behalf of all the other Marvel Netflix shows I mean I'm definitely going to turn on the other creators to this podcast

[01:37:00] if they haven't already listened to it because man it's like you guys can still end that on episode my you know thank you so much no problem I know that all of our writers are fully appreciated

[01:37:13] so and just on my behalf thank you so much no problem at all look forward to seeing what you what you got coming next yeah absolutely thanks boss thank you again thank you thank so much

[01:37:24] take care to you too and that is our interview with Chio Hedari Kokur at the show runner of Marvel's Luke Cage on Netflix really fun interview really really enjoyed that thanks again so much

[01:37:38] for joining us to your Kokur and thanks to you fellow defenders for joining us for this discussion about season two of Luke Cage we're still cracking on with our discussions about

[01:37:47] Iron Fist still a couple of episodes left of that show and if you want to join us for our next podcast about the Marvel Netflix shows dare devil will be coming up in October as well so

[01:37:57] lots and lots of discussions about each individual episode of the Netflix shows thanks so much to Jonas make sure you stay subscribed to the podcast through our website at defendersTVpodcast.com you'll have connections to all of the podcast sites that were on including Apple podcasts and Google

[01:38:12] Podcasts as well talk to you soon and believe you with our usual Luke Cage theme from Mississippi McDonald