[00:00.000 --> 00:09.000] This is the Defenders Podcast on TV Podcast Industries and we're talking about the finale of Echo Season 1, Episode 5, Maya.
[00:09.000 --> 00:11.000] It's a good thing you got here early.
[00:11.000 --> 00:13.000] I didn't realize there'd be so many people.
[00:13.000 --> 00:18.000] Oh, there always are. People come from all over for our chalk donation powwows.
[00:18.000 --> 00:19.000] Is that right?
[00:19.000 --> 00:20.000] Yes.
[00:20.000 --> 00:25.000] You're a necklace. It's American Sign Language. It says I love you.
[00:25.000 --> 00:26.000] Oh.
[00:26.000 --> 00:27.000] You sign?
[00:27.000 --> 00:29.000] I try. For my niece.
[00:29.000 --> 00:34.000] Ah, I learned for my daughter. She's passed on and out.
[00:34.000 --> 00:42.000] So I've lost someone who I love. It's a kind of tango you never quite get over.
[00:42.000 --> 00:44.000] Yeah, thank you.
[00:44.000 --> 00:45.000] Yeah.
[00:45.000 --> 00:48.000] I keep it up now for my granddaughter.
[00:48.000 --> 00:49.000] Really?
[00:49.000 --> 00:50.000] Yeah.
[00:50.000 --> 00:51.000] Well, tell me about her.
[01:00.000 --> 01:16.000] Welcome back, fellow Defenders, to the finale episode on the Defenders Podcast, where we are going to be talking all about Episode 5 from Season 1 of Echo, Maya.
[01:16.000 --> 01:19.000] I am one of your host, John.
[01:19.000 --> 01:20.000] I'm one of your other host, Derek.
[01:20.000 --> 01:24.000] And rounding out this trio for this very special episode. I am Chris.
[01:24.000 --> 01:26.000] Excellent stuff.
[01:26.000 --> 01:32.000] Yes, we are into the end game of what happens in Echo.
[01:32.000 --> 01:33.000] Yeah.
[01:33.000 --> 01:35.000] The start game of what happens in Daredevil born again?
[01:35.000 --> 01:36.000] Well, that is true.
[01:36.000 --> 01:37.000] Yes.
[01:37.000 --> 01:43.000] Just in case you didn't get the chance to watch it because we all will, of course, spoil everything that happens in this episode. There is a post credit scene in this episode.
[01:43.000 --> 01:49.000] I did notice on Disney Plus that the minute it comes up to the credits, it goes, you want to skip the credits and I didn't.
[01:49.000 --> 01:53.000] But I wonder if that takes you directly to the scene or does it skip past the post credit scene.
[01:53.000 --> 01:55.000] So if you did that, make sure you watch those credits.
[01:55.000 --> 01:57.000] For sure.
[01:57.000 --> 01:58.000] Yeah, definitely.
[01:58.000 --> 01:59.000] Definitely.
[01:59.000 --> 02:01.000] I made credits. Sorry, I can make credits, isn't it?
[02:01.000 --> 02:02.000] I guess so.
[02:02.000 --> 02:03.000] It's credit side.
[02:03.000 --> 02:08.000] It's technically because the Disney Plus is always the additional credits for all the other regions.
[02:08.000 --> 02:16.000] But yes, we are going to be getting into our spoiler filled discussion of Episode 5 of Echo.
[02:16.000 --> 02:35.000] Yeah, before we do, remember fellow defenders to pop on over to our website at tvpodcastindustries.com, where you can subscribe to the podcast if you are new to us, or you can check out all the other podcasts that we have done, including those over on the Defenders podcast in particular,
[02:35.000 --> 02:39.000] the Marvel Netflix stuff around Daredevil seasons one to three.
[02:39.000 --> 02:45.000] So yes, you can listen back as you watch those on Disney Plus.
[02:45.000 --> 03:02.000] We also love to get your thoughts, feedback and theories, observations, comments, so you can send in emails to feedback at tvpodcastindustries.com, or you can head on over to our Facebook group at Facebook.com forward slash groups forward slash TV podcast industries.
[03:02.000 --> 03:15.000] And without further ado, shall we get into our episode details for episode five of Echo Maya Derek, who gave us what were when, how and why.
[03:15.000 --> 03:20.000] Well, of course, Echo, the character was created by David Mack and Joe Cosada, the head writer for this show is Marion Dair.
[03:20.000 --> 03:26.000] The writers for this episode are Amy Rarden, Stephen P. Gillard, Alan Morton and Chantal and Wells.
[03:26.000 --> 03:32.000] We mentioned Stephen, Alan and Chantal in previous episodes, but this is the first episode that Amy is a writer on.
[03:32.000 --> 03:38.000] She is an executive producer on this show and previously worked on Jane the Virgin and the Charmed reboot, interestingly.
[03:38.000 --> 03:39.000] Interesting.
[03:39.000 --> 03:40.000] Yeah, interesting.
[03:40.000 --> 03:42.000] I didn't even know there was a Charmed reboot.
[03:42.000 --> 03:43.000] No.
[03:43.000 --> 03:48.000] I think it came at 2018 to 2020, so it went for about three seasons.
[03:48.000 --> 03:49.000] Okay.
[03:49.000 --> 03:50.000] Yeah.
[03:50.000 --> 03:51.000] So there you go.
[03:51.000 --> 03:56.000] And the director for this episode, once again, is Sidney Freeland, who directed four of the five episodes of Echo.
[03:56.000 --> 03:57.000] Excellent stuff.
[03:57.000 --> 03:58.000] Yes.
[03:58.000 --> 04:03.000] Maintaining her work as the director here for this season of Echo.
[04:03.000 --> 04:04.000] Exactly.
[04:04.000 --> 04:09.000] John, do you want to tell us what they gave us with your synopsis for Echo episode five, Maya?
[04:09.000 --> 04:10.000] Sure.
[04:10.000 --> 04:18.000] In a flashback to her childhood, Maya hits a woodpecker with a slingshot to lower reprimands Maya for hurting an innocent life.
[04:18.000 --> 04:21.000] And with her hands glowing, heals the woodpecker.
[04:21.000 --> 04:24.000] Lazer, the two release it back into the wild.
[04:24.000 --> 04:38.000] Having left Tamaha and on the road, Maya stops off at services, unaware that back in Tamaha, her family are in danger, as Fisk plans retribution for her rejection of his offer to return to New York as his partner.
[04:38.000 --> 04:47.000] In Tamaha, as the community gets ready for the Chuctor Nation power out, biscuits messages Maya that Chula and Mottie are missing.
[04:47.000 --> 04:49.000] And she returns to Tamaha.
[04:49.000 --> 04:54.000] She quickly visits Chula's home and is met by a vision of her mother to lower.
[04:54.000 --> 05:02.000] To lower tells her that she is the embodiment of their people's legacy, and that this legacy will echo through her actions.
[05:02.000 --> 05:06.000] The vision ends revealing Chula's finished garment.
[05:06.000 --> 05:16.000] At the Chuctor Power festival, Maya locates Fisk, who is kidnapped Chula and Bonnie, and threatens to kill her entire family for betraying him.
[05:16.000 --> 05:27.000] While biscuits incapacitates Fisk's men with a monster truck and Henry takes out Zayn, Maya shares her Chuctor powers with Chula and Bonnie, who overpower Fisk's men.
[05:27.000 --> 05:36.000] Using her powers, Maya takes Fisk to the memory of his father beating his mother in an effort to heal his trauma and help him let go of his anger.
[05:36.000 --> 05:44.000] Returning to reality, an outraged Fisk demands to know what she did to him and leaves the festival before the police arrive.
[05:44.000 --> 05:54.000] The next day, Maya joins her family at an e-tout at Chula's home, while in a mid-credits scene, Fisk is on his airplane watching with interest,
[05:54.000 --> 06:03.000] a new story that talks about the lack of frontrunners in the New York mayoral elections and sparks an unexpected idea in the kingpin.
[06:03.000 --> 06:06.000] Well, that's what I'm assuming, anyway.
[06:06.000 --> 06:16.000] That an idea is forming within the mind closely around the bullet hole area of Fisk's brain.
[06:16.000 --> 06:21.000] Or the former bullet hole area we'll talk about as the episode goes on.
[06:21.000 --> 06:25.000] But yeah, do you think Fisk is born again, potentially in this month?
[06:25.000 --> 06:26.000] I think so.
[06:26.000 --> 06:27.000] Or in this episode at least.
[06:27.000 --> 06:33.000] Yeah, I think you might be thinking of some kind of rain as an R-E-I-G-N.
[06:34.000 --> 06:35.000] Oh, very good, very good.
[06:35.000 --> 06:36.000] Yes.
[06:36.000 --> 06:42.000] A bit of rain to come for Fisk, which will be very cool.
[06:42.000 --> 06:44.000] Only if someone is born again.
[06:44.000 --> 06:45.000] Yes.
[06:45.000 --> 06:46.000] Yes.
[06:46.000 --> 06:47.000] Who might that be?
[06:47.000 --> 06:48.000] I don't know.
[06:48.000 --> 06:49.000] Okay.
[06:49.000 --> 06:50.000] Will it be the Iron Fist?
[06:50.000 --> 06:59.000] Wait, actually, wait, rumor is there is apparently a new Iron Fist show in development at Marvel.
[06:59.000 --> 07:00.000] Ooh.
[07:00.000 --> 07:01.000] Yes.
[07:01.000 --> 07:02.000] With.
[07:02.000 --> 07:03.000] With.
[07:03.000 --> 07:05.000] Danny Rand to return.
[07:05.000 --> 07:06.000] Ooh.
[07:06.000 --> 07:07.000] But they're not in Fisk.
[07:07.000 --> 07:08.000] They are in Fisk.
[07:08.000 --> 07:09.000] Yeah.
[07:09.000 --> 07:10.000] It could be the main.
[07:10.000 --> 07:11.000] No, it could.
[07:11.000 --> 07:16.000] Well, yes, because Iron Fist is regenerated and takes over that manful.
[07:16.000 --> 07:17.000] Well, that'd be really interesting.
[07:17.000 --> 07:21.000] And yeah, we did see at the end of the second season of Iron Fist, if you did get there,
[07:21.000 --> 07:27.000] the Cullin Wing was the Iron Fist and Danny Rand also had Iron Fist powers at the end of that season.
[07:27.000 --> 07:28.000] Exactly.
[07:28.000 --> 07:32.000] So it could if they if they decide to move on, but I don't know about any of these rumors
[07:32.000 --> 07:34.000] at the moment because I think everybody's just going.
[07:34.000 --> 07:37.120] So everybody's now watching the shows for the first time and all of their theories are
[07:37.120 --> 07:40.440] just the theories that they published six or seven years ago about how the shows would
[07:40.440 --> 07:41.440] continue.
[07:41.440 --> 07:45.000] And then I say, oh, new rumors suggests when they were just their theories back through
[07:45.000 --> 07:46.000] everything.
[07:46.000 --> 07:49.080] Well, if we don't get an Iron Fist, we've always got Iron Fisk.
[07:49.080 --> 07:50.080] We do have Iron Fist.
[07:50.080 --> 07:51.080] Iron Head of Fisk.
[07:51.080 --> 07:52.080] I think.
[07:52.080 --> 07:53.080] Exactly.
[07:53.080 --> 08:00.080] But shall we get into our top five fight points for this final episode of Echo?
[08:00.080 --> 08:06.080] First off, fight point number one, Maya already a crack shot.
[08:06.080 --> 08:07.080] Yes, yes.
[08:07.080 --> 08:12.080] The flashback here at the beginning where we have Maya coming out of the of the shadows,
[08:12.080 --> 08:18.080] coming out of the trees to take out the woodpecker that we've seen is very much connected
[08:18.080 --> 08:20.280] to the Choctar Nation.
[08:20.280 --> 08:24.680] And she takes it out with a catapult, just like Dennis the Manus.
[08:24.680 --> 08:25.680] Yeah, absolutely.
[08:25.680 --> 08:35.480] The, the, to lower calls the woodpecker Biskinik and that this, the woodpecker taps out message
[08:35.480 --> 08:36.480] or warnings.
[08:36.480 --> 08:40.080] And there was a symbol of warning effectively.
[08:40.080 --> 08:41.080] Yeah.
[08:41.080 --> 08:42.640] Yeah, crack shot at an early age.
[08:42.640 --> 08:49.040] I mean, again, I, in this immediate moment, I was thinking, is this suggestive of, you
[08:49.040 --> 08:54.040] know, the, the, the child that pulls the wings off a butterfly?
[08:54.040 --> 08:59.640] And hence, you know, that's why she, her language is violence.
[08:59.640 --> 09:05.680] As we talked about in the previous episode, or, you know, ultimately we do learn and
[09:05.680 --> 09:08.560] that she was just trying to be able to touch it.
[09:08.560 --> 09:11.640] So she was trying to kind of scare it or something.
[09:11.640 --> 09:13.040] She couldn't see if she could hit it.
[09:13.040 --> 09:14.040] Yeah, I guess.
[09:14.040 --> 09:16.200] So I, it is definitely a, a childless thing.
[09:16.200 --> 09:19.560] I remember this from, from being a kid, you know, went too far.
[09:19.560 --> 09:23.200] We'll be trying to see if we can break that, not thinking what would happen after you
[09:23.200 --> 09:24.200] break the thing.
[09:24.200 --> 09:25.200] You know?
[09:25.200 --> 09:26.200] Yeah.
[09:26.200 --> 09:27.200] Or if we break it.
[09:27.200 --> 09:28.200] Exactly.
[09:28.200 --> 09:29.200] No, exactly.
[09:29.200 --> 09:34.280] So probably in that wheelhouse, but I think interestingly here with this, this flashback,
[09:34.280 --> 09:38.600] we see Taloa has this kind of power of healing.
[09:38.600 --> 09:39.600] Yes.
[09:39.600 --> 09:46.960] And as she uses it on the sort of knocked out woodpecker, which is interesting because
[09:46.960 --> 09:51.800] they aren't giving echo and new powers at new, new ability.
[09:51.800 --> 09:52.800] Yeah.
[09:52.800 --> 09:53.800] It's basically right at the end.
[09:53.800 --> 09:54.800] Every superhero film.
[09:54.800 --> 09:59.800] Wait, here's a new pirate you might need in the future, which you're going to need in
[09:59.800 --> 10:00.800] this.
[10:00.800 --> 10:04.200] And it's interesting that it's told, it told to us through the flashback, isn't it?
[10:04.200 --> 10:05.200] Yes.
[10:05.200 --> 10:08.400] You don't understand now that Maya had known this from when she was a child, that her mom
[10:08.400 --> 10:09.960] was able to heal things, right?
[10:09.960 --> 10:10.960] So yeah.
[10:10.960 --> 10:14.600] But this experience of having this connection to the ancestors over the course of these
[10:14.600 --> 10:18.280] episodes, of this, of this time that she's been at home at Tamaha probably connects it
[10:18.280 --> 10:22.720] much more to now understanding what that power was that she saw her mother use once when
[10:22.720 --> 10:23.720] she was a child.
[10:23.720 --> 10:24.720] Exactly.
[10:24.720 --> 10:28.360] It's kind of, it's that thing as a kid where something happens within the family and you
[10:28.360 --> 10:35.240] don't think it's necessarily special or different until you get context to it whenever that
[10:35.240 --> 10:36.240] comes to you.
[10:36.240 --> 10:37.240] Exactly.
[10:37.240 --> 10:42.320] And in this case, you know, I mean, even, you know, we have heard that Maya's mom has
[10:42.320 --> 10:44.080] been described as a healer.
[10:44.080 --> 10:45.080] Yeah.
[10:45.080 --> 10:47.840] And you know, that has different connotations as well.
[10:47.840 --> 10:48.840] Exactly.
[10:48.840 --> 10:54.400] You know, whether it's a doctor or a shaman or something like that, you know, so, but here
[10:54.480 --> 11:01.400] we see that this is through the power coming through from the ancestors and the intrinsic
[11:01.400 --> 11:04.440] link that Talua has with that.
[11:04.440 --> 11:11.360] I do like as well that it, you suddenly get that jolt as she's doing this, which takes
[11:11.360 --> 11:18.160] Maya back to the car crash and you get that great aspect with the heartbeats again, as
[11:18.160 --> 11:24.160] Maya hears her mother's heartbeat fade and there's another heartbeat element in this episode
[11:24.160 --> 11:26.160] which I think is really, really good.
[11:26.160 --> 11:27.160] Absolutely.
[11:27.160 --> 11:32.680] And so I think it will come to a bit, a bit later, but I kind of like that sort of jolt
[11:32.680 --> 11:39.160] back to this moment, you know, she's just seeing her mom healing and you see that in
[11:39.160 --> 11:44.240] this crash, she's unable to do that to herself because she's been knocked on cons.
[11:44.240 --> 11:45.240] Well, absolutely.
[11:45.240 --> 11:49.240] You know, there was a moment in that that I was wondering whether we'd see Talua reach
[11:49.240 --> 11:52.640] over and bring Maya back to life before she died.
[11:52.640 --> 11:54.720] I also thought that was the way they may have gone.
[11:54.720 --> 11:58.320] But as we mentioned last episode, you know, those are what you would expect to see these
[11:58.320 --> 11:59.320] flashbacks.
[11:59.320 --> 12:04.040] You'd have that moment where our superhero gets created by a big moment in their, in their
[12:04.040 --> 12:07.520] past, you know, that they may not remember and it's being, being brought out here.
[12:07.520 --> 12:10.760] But you know, last episode we mentioned that that episode really was, even though it was
[12:10.760 --> 12:15.920] cold, Talua was actually about the moment of power that Chula had this episode here we're
[12:15.920 --> 12:20.200] seeing Talua's power coming out as a healer while Maya was young.
[12:20.200 --> 12:25.520] Yeah, for me, the fact that they didn't go down that route, which was the the the very
[12:25.520 --> 12:32.160] paint by numbers, Arjun, exactly, literally, I was, I was sitting there going, Oh, okay,
[12:32.160 --> 12:33.160] they didn't do it.
[12:33.160 --> 12:37.040] Oh, maybe it's going to be the this, like, right at the end of the fight midway through
[12:37.040 --> 12:41.000] the fight scene at the end or something where there's a big massive moment.
[12:41.000 --> 12:45.880] It's going to flashback again, and it will turn out that her mother did it or will turn
[12:45.880 --> 12:51.800] out that Maya had this power all along because she tried to heal her mom, right, and type
[12:51.800 --> 12:55.280] it like I was a hundred cents expecting that.
[12:55.280 --> 12:57.680] So actually hats off that they didn't.
[12:57.680 --> 12:59.760] Yeah, I'm actually kind of proud.
[12:59.760 --> 13:01.840] It was the easier route.
[13:01.840 --> 13:03.000] It would have been the easier route.
[13:03.000 --> 13:08.480] It was the more cliché route and they didn't touch us, so I was like, Okay, there so where
[13:08.480 --> 13:10.080] are they going with this?
[13:10.080 --> 13:15.800] So her mom now has healing powers, is that's what's going to additionally move forward
[13:15.800 --> 13:24.200] through and into Maya and how are these going to be used in the future to save, like essentially
[13:24.200 --> 13:28.760] her people to say like, what is this culmination?
[13:28.760 --> 13:33.080] What are they building towards with this power set with these people with the thing?
[13:33.080 --> 13:34.880] So yeah, it's interesting.
[13:34.880 --> 13:36.280] Yeah, it's a great way to open the episodes.
[13:36.280 --> 13:39.640] You have those questions as you go into the opening credits.
[13:39.640 --> 13:44.400] So I want to give a huge shout out once again to the subtitles people here, specifically
[13:44.400 --> 13:51.960] on those heartbeats as you as we thought we would be seeing to lower save, save Maya and
[13:51.960 --> 13:57.160] then had two heartbeats going to one heartbeat alone, showing the death of to lower there.
[13:57.160 --> 14:01.440] I thought that was really good adding extra context with subtitles, which they've done
[14:01.440 --> 14:02.440] throughout the season.
[14:02.440 --> 14:07.000] And I think it's on purpose and that they're definitely adding the context through subtitles.
[14:07.000 --> 14:11.800] So you should be watching it that way, that's the optimal way to watch the show I think.
[14:11.800 --> 14:16.320] Will we go on to fight point number two, because it is intrinsically connected to this opening
[14:16.320 --> 14:17.320] scene, really?
[14:17.320 --> 14:18.320] Yeah.
[14:18.320 --> 14:19.320] To lower the healer.
[14:19.320 --> 14:25.920] And I mean, just to give some context here, you know, Maya is on the road and we see Fisk
[14:25.920 --> 14:34.520] bumping into a truly and we have Biscuit sort of directing vendor vehicles and all that,
[14:34.520 --> 14:38.000] realising Chilu has not turned up yet.
[14:38.000 --> 14:45.080] And so we have Maya coming back to Tamaha, I'd like the fact that we do get a Roxxon
[14:45.080 --> 14:46.080] garage in here.
[14:46.080 --> 14:47.080] Yes.
[14:47.080 --> 14:52.240] I was like, I like it when, you know, these random sort of, in a sense, Roxxon has never
[14:52.240 --> 14:57.480] been a massive organisation, but they've, you know, if it's a service station or a gas
[14:57.480 --> 15:03.520] station, they've always kind of chucked Roxxon on the, you know, the evil corporation.
[15:03.520 --> 15:07.400] I particularly remember during the defenders era of Netflix that Roxxon would mention
[15:07.400 --> 15:09.320] to be very awful at that time.
[15:09.320 --> 15:10.320] Definitely.
[15:10.320 --> 15:11.320] So I kind of like that.
[15:11.320 --> 15:18.320] But we have her coming back to Chula's house to try and save Chula at least at this moment.
[15:18.320 --> 15:23.440] I don't think she knows or they don't think that Bonnie is missing the text from Biscuits
[15:23.440 --> 15:25.840] actually said Chula and Bonnie, you haven't turned up yet.
[15:25.840 --> 15:26.840] Yes.
[15:26.840 --> 15:27.840] That's true.
[15:27.840 --> 15:28.840] Yeah.
[15:28.840 --> 15:29.840] Absolutely.
[15:29.920 --> 15:39.000] In Guncocked into Chula's house, I mean, you just, it sets up this really great scene
[15:39.000 --> 15:44.360] with Maya having this visit from her mother to lower.
[15:44.360 --> 15:48.000] Before we get to her mother, there's one thing I want to call out.
[15:48.000 --> 15:49.000] Okay.
[15:49.000 --> 15:50.760] She throws away the contact lens.
[15:50.760 --> 15:51.760] Yes, she does.
[15:51.760 --> 15:52.760] Yes, she does.
[15:52.760 --> 15:53.760] Yeah.
[15:53.760 --> 15:54.760] I was like, what?
[15:54.760 --> 15:55.760] Why include that?
[15:55.760 --> 15:58.280] Because essentially you gave her an ability.
[15:58.280 --> 16:04.080] Yeah, that Maya could have used going forward, which is that she can essentially just see,
[16:04.080 --> 16:08.200] she gets a translation of ASL of what people are talking to her.
[16:08.200 --> 16:09.880] Like that's just, that's there.
[16:09.880 --> 16:10.880] It's tech now.
[16:10.880 --> 16:11.880] She should have just used.
[16:11.880 --> 16:14.760] Maybe it's just starting to get an irritated cornea.
[16:14.760 --> 16:15.760] She could have.
[16:15.760 --> 16:18.760] I started Bob says in the previous podcast.
[16:18.760 --> 16:24.280] It was either that or she didn't want to be tethered to having updates coming into her
[16:24.280 --> 16:27.760] every week, you know, maybe just having a tracking device and thinking maybe.
[16:27.840 --> 16:28.840] Yeah.
[16:28.840 --> 16:32.000] She didn't have the docking station to jog again.
[16:32.000 --> 16:35.080] So I will just run out of juice, I guess.
[16:35.080 --> 16:42.200] No, it's a definite decision to sever herself from this control that the Kingpin had over
[16:42.200 --> 16:46.040] her effectively, this change in her.
[16:46.040 --> 16:50.360] I suppose, you know, the connection she talked about is with Fisk saying, you don't even
[16:50.360 --> 16:55.560] love me enough to learn ASL and he effectively washed over that with technology.
[16:55.560 --> 16:57.720] I think she's kind of going, well, you know what?
[16:57.880 --> 17:01.200] If nobody's going to learn ASL, I don't care what they're saying, basically.
[17:01.200 --> 17:02.200] Yeah.
[17:02.200 --> 17:04.440] So I wonder if it was something like that.
[17:04.440 --> 17:09.240] But I did expect to see Fisk of the other side of that Doris as Maya walked into the house
[17:09.240 --> 17:10.240] where they're gone.
[17:10.240 --> 17:13.920] I did not expect to have this visitation from from Tulloa.
[17:13.920 --> 17:17.080] I thought that was a really great choice given that throughout the series.
[17:17.080 --> 17:22.840] We actually see the ancestors connecting with Maya through these visions.
[17:22.840 --> 17:24.880] They're not just her seeing bits of their past.
[17:24.880 --> 17:26.720] She's hearing them call to her.
[17:26.720 --> 17:31.440] So her mother is actually visiting her here, actually having a discussion with her and talking
[17:31.440 --> 17:35.880] to her about her ancestors, which I thought was really appropriate for the show, worked
[17:35.880 --> 17:36.880] really well for this.
[17:36.880 --> 17:37.880] Oh, absolutely.
[17:37.880 --> 17:42.640] And even just having the kind of the sort of the different elements that these ancestors
[17:42.640 --> 17:50.320] bring as well that will help her, you know, as Tulloa said, you're not alone.
[17:50.320 --> 17:58.160] And these these gifts will echo through through her as they did through her mom and, you know,
[17:58.160 --> 17:59.640] through her ancestors previously.
[17:59.640 --> 18:00.640] Yeah.
[18:00.640 --> 18:05.600] You know, and which we've seen in those openings, you know, we we saw low-axing Shaffa.
[18:05.600 --> 18:08.600] We saw Tuklo seeing low-ax.
[18:08.600 --> 18:16.160] So, you know, we have Shaffa representing ferocity, low-ax strategy, Tuklo, cunning.
[18:16.160 --> 18:19.600] And then Tulloa is love, you know.
[18:19.600 --> 18:24.520] And to bring all these elements together, you know.
[18:24.520 --> 18:30.720] So this was really great, all that context sort of being provided here as to how they
[18:30.720 --> 18:35.920] echo through what they bring to to Maya.
[18:35.920 --> 18:36.920] Yeah.
[18:36.920 --> 18:39.520] And the way that Tulloa says to her, these are your gifts.
[18:39.520 --> 18:42.640] These are the gifts that you're getting from your ancestors.
[18:42.640 --> 18:49.880] But importantly, it's also tying back to what has been the creation of Maya as the villainous
[18:49.880 --> 18:54.880] character, as the hench person for Kingpin or as the new Queenpin.
[18:54.880 --> 18:59.240] It's all stemming from the death of her mother, the pain that that that caused, the separation
[18:59.240 --> 19:01.440] that it caused from her, from her family.
[19:01.440 --> 19:05.000] And Tulloa was taking this opportunity to going, you've been lost.
[19:05.000 --> 19:10.880] You've had this pain being in control of everything that you've been doing for the last 20 years
[19:10.880 --> 19:13.720] since you left Tamaha.
[19:13.720 --> 19:14.720] Let it go.
[19:14.720 --> 19:18.280] It's time to put that in the past where it belongs.
[19:18.280 --> 19:24.240] And you're not alone, even though I'm gone, your father's gone, you've separated from
[19:24.240 --> 19:28.880] Kingpin, you're not alone, you have your ancestors behind you and we will always be there with
[19:28.880 --> 19:29.880] you.
[19:29.880 --> 19:35.320] I thought that was a really good moment to have her brought back in a guest to the fold.
[19:35.320 --> 19:36.560] Yeah, definitely.
[19:36.560 --> 19:40.120] Because this echoes really through the decisions that Maya makes through it the rest of the
[19:40.120 --> 19:44.000] episode, the decisions that, who she's going to be and how she'll use these powers.
[19:44.000 --> 19:48.520] So I think it's a really important moment to have this with her mother talking her away
[19:48.520 --> 19:54.360] from her pain and then also revealing her superhero outfit, we were kind of right last
[19:54.360 --> 19:55.360] week.
[19:55.360 --> 20:04.160] That was being made for her by Chula, but we have Maya's new outfit, which looks cool.
[20:04.160 --> 20:05.160] It does.
[20:05.160 --> 20:06.600] It's very old school.
[20:06.600 --> 20:10.920] It is very appropriate to the culture.
[20:10.920 --> 20:17.040] It doesn't look very bulletproof or anything like that, but I'm assuming a certain taters
[20:17.040 --> 20:22.520] in New York can probably add some titanium weave to it and it will be fine.
[20:22.520 --> 20:27.440] Well, that's the end bridge and it's the symbolism of it as well, because I think it
[20:27.440 --> 20:36.440] to lower says how each scene represents sort of the ancestors.
[20:36.440 --> 20:44.840] And it's what Maya ultimately was when she goes to the pow wow.
[20:44.840 --> 20:49.920] So I think if we move on to fight point number three, the pow wow showdown.
[20:49.920 --> 20:50.920] Yeah.
[20:50.920 --> 20:57.400] I loved this opening scene as we have the music and we have the entrance of the...
[20:57.400 --> 21:03.040] The group coming into the pow wow and Maya's in the center of the mall wearing this outfit
[21:03.040 --> 21:08.800] that she's just been gifted from, her ancestors from a mom from made by Chula.
[21:08.800 --> 21:09.800] It's really cool.
[21:09.800 --> 21:15.880] And just as we, again, the use of saying throughout the series works so well, as you see the saying
[21:15.880 --> 21:21.560] dropping out from the music that's being played only to the bass line drum and then you see
[21:21.560 --> 21:25.480] Maya is aligning with that as she focuses.
[21:25.480 --> 21:30.200] And it's only at that point that she sees the woodpecker once again, this representation
[21:30.200 --> 21:36.640] of danger guiding her to where Chula and Bonnie are being held by fists, you know, it's aligning
[21:36.640 --> 21:41.040] with her ancestors, aligning with her history and her people, gives her all access to these
[21:41.040 --> 21:44.840] powers as what it seems like from that scene and just represented so well.
[21:44.840 --> 21:50.360] I loved how it was done, you know, that synchronizing of the heartbeat of Maya's heartbeat
[21:50.360 --> 21:56.480] with the drum beat, that kind of rhythm and you see with the stepping that she's doing
[21:56.480 --> 21:59.120] to the rhythm of the drum as well.
[21:59.120 --> 22:05.160] I just thought it was fantastic and you know, this is to help her actually infiltrate this
[22:05.160 --> 22:10.400] pow wow because all of Fisk's men are on the lookout for her.
[22:10.400 --> 22:15.880] And this is where Fisk has decided that, you know, the battleground is going to be here
[22:16.040 --> 22:18.840] in terms of this retribution.
[22:18.840 --> 22:28.000] Yeah, we've got Zayn here and sort of basically this gets around vendor car parking and you
[22:28.000 --> 22:33.120] know, there's a couple of vans filled with heavies and their guns and at the center of
[22:33.120 --> 22:42.280] it, there's this fantastic spectacle of dress and rhythm music and the music throughout this,
[22:42.280 --> 22:50.560] I thought, you know, the ceremonial music as much as then the likes of Samantha Crane's
[22:50.560 --> 22:55.960] vocals playing through this episode was really, really cool.
[22:55.960 --> 22:59.440] It felt really great to me.
[22:59.440 --> 23:09.640] It really added again that on another underlying sense of emotion to it all but I like that,
[23:09.720 --> 23:14.120] you know, you have this introduction to the pow wow.
[23:14.120 --> 23:16.600] And you know, I'm just going to say it there as well, pow wow.
[23:16.600 --> 23:20.400] I forgot about this word pow wow.
[23:20.400 --> 23:27.560] It's one of the few words maybe from Native American language that has been adopted and
[23:27.560 --> 23:33.120] permeated into sort of at least the English language because I was remembering my dad's
[23:33.120 --> 23:38.160] kind of saying, well, we're going to have a family pow wow, you know, it's just really
[23:38.160 --> 23:44.720] weird and I've kind of forgotten that, you know, and yeah, it's such a great word
[23:44.720 --> 23:46.840] anyway, isn't that true?
[23:46.840 --> 23:53.080] It feels, it's and sounds as to what it is, you know, it's really good.
[23:53.080 --> 23:58.080] I really like it, yeah, it's the community get together effectively where everybody can
[23:58.080 --> 24:01.680] come and join and experience the culture as well.
[24:01.680 --> 24:03.440] It feels togetherness, exactly.
[24:03.440 --> 24:04.440] Words, you know?
[24:04.440 --> 24:05.440] Exactly.
[24:05.440 --> 24:06.440] It's really good.
[24:06.440 --> 24:11.000] I really like about it was the way they brought in Zayn in his camper van because we
[24:11.000 --> 24:15.760] mentioned it earlier on in the season Zayn being a Welshman in North America here.
[24:15.760 --> 24:21.000] He really seemed like a tourist, specifically Welsh, but really felt like a tourist arriving
[24:21.000 --> 24:28.040] at this community event, you see him with the Tamaha, I love Tamaha, kind of harsh on
[24:28.040 --> 24:32.720] his hedge, you know, but again, massively rude because it's Zayn telling Biscuits he's
[24:32.720 --> 24:37.000] going to be barking in the vendor's spot.
[24:37.000 --> 24:38.960] I don't care what you say to me kind of thing.
[24:38.960 --> 24:39.960] Yeah, yeah, whatever.
[24:39.960 --> 24:44.800] This is his own thumbs up as he just drives on to this parking spot.
[24:44.800 --> 24:48.240] And he even says he's not going to take part in the by way, we're not going to be close,
[24:48.240 --> 24:52.800] he's just going to watch the Eurocoach school from a fire, your cultural day from a fire
[24:52.800 --> 24:53.800] basically.
[24:53.800 --> 24:56.680] So I like that as well, but nice little touches.
[24:56.680 --> 24:57.680] Yeah.
[24:57.680 --> 25:03.040] Like for this, this is cool, this over every aspect of this, from the cultural bit.
[25:03.040 --> 25:09.160] I remember speaking about something very similar with Miss Marvel when we watched Miss Marvel,
[25:09.160 --> 25:16.480] again, these windows into other cultures that I have absolutely no notion about outside
[25:16.480 --> 25:25.240] of other Western based TV shows or films, which you see are some was kind of, I'm going
[25:25.240 --> 25:26.680] to use the term whitewashed.
[25:26.680 --> 25:28.800] Oh, yeah.
[25:28.800 --> 25:32.120] Even culturally whitewashed, this seems authentic.
[25:32.120 --> 25:38.160] This seems like something if we were to go to Tamaha, we would see this, we would see.
[25:38.160 --> 25:45.960] And straight at the end of this episode, there is a thank you to the Choctaw Nation in Oklahoma
[25:45.960 --> 25:51.040] for the support because obviously they consulted, they obviously were very close on this.
[25:51.040 --> 25:59.840] So I'm pretty sure the next powwow next year or this year in 2024 is going to be massive.
[25:59.840 --> 26:08.040] No, no, no, I'm actually on the word powwow, I always thought that was a word you couldn't
[26:08.040 --> 26:09.040] use.
[26:09.040 --> 26:18.480] I mean, I thought it was a word that was used to belittle Native Americans, indigenous people.
[26:18.480 --> 26:24.120] I did think it was like very much a word like, oh, you just, it's a powwow.
[26:24.120 --> 26:28.880] So I completely removed it from a lexicon for it because I also thought it was that and
[26:28.880 --> 26:31.880] then I'm like, oh, no, no, it's just like, it's a thing.
[26:31.880 --> 26:32.880] They use it.
[26:32.880 --> 26:33.880] Everyone use it.
[26:33.880 --> 26:35.480] It's it's it is what it is.
[26:35.480 --> 26:42.040] And I'm like, oh, cool, I'm the more you know, this is our wipes into this episode.
[26:42.040 --> 26:46.800] I always just thought it was two punches from Batman in the 60s series.
[26:46.800 --> 26:47.800] Powwow.
[26:47.800 --> 26:48.800] Powwow.
[26:48.800 --> 26:49.800] Powwow.
[26:49.800 --> 26:50.800] I'm off.
[26:50.800 --> 26:51.800] No.
[26:51.800 --> 26:52.800] Sing.
[26:52.800 --> 26:53.800] Sing.
[26:53.800 --> 26:54.800] Yeah.
[26:54.800 --> 26:55.800] Exactly.
[26:55.800 --> 26:57.960] But though it is, it is really cool seeing this and part of the show then that's happening
[26:57.960 --> 27:00.120] here and it go, it stretches across the day.
[27:00.120 --> 27:05.180] You know, as you've said, you know, there are the moments of the dancing going on.
[27:05.180 --> 27:10.560] I like that we see the camera pan across some of the, some of the women that are waiting to
[27:10.560 --> 27:13.400] waiting for their performance or waiting for their moment during the day.
[27:13.400 --> 27:15.880] And again, you know, it's tying in, you know, it is a current culture.
[27:15.880 --> 27:19.360] It's not people dressing up in ancient, in ancient gear.
[27:19.360 --> 27:24.040] They're also people with literary boots on as part of their, of their effort for the day.
[27:24.040 --> 27:28.000] You know, it's, it's showing that it is still a living festival for this community and with
[27:28.000 --> 27:29.000] this community.
[27:29.000 --> 27:36.000] So, you know, some of the, the, the dresses in the traditional style, but using sequence
[27:36.000 --> 27:42.880] and very modern stuff, you know, in the, and I, I love the, the pan, the aerial pan
[27:42.880 --> 27:46.120] down and you see the different kind of movements happening.
[27:46.120 --> 27:51.640] Because I think there were two guys very much with the, the feather headdresses, just doing
[27:51.640 --> 27:55.640] the spinning and so on, really, really good.
[27:55.640 --> 28:00.080] And I love the rhythm and the rhythmic nature of, of this.
[28:00.080 --> 28:02.320] It was really kind of cool.
[28:02.320 --> 28:08.360] And sort of that's the circular element with the, the, the, that ceremonial drawn in the
[28:08.360 --> 28:15.320] middle, just doing that beat and the ceremonial music and chants happening.
[28:15.320 --> 28:16.320] Yeah.
[28:16.320 --> 28:17.320] Yeah.
[28:17.320 --> 28:18.320] Absolutely.
[28:18.320 --> 28:19.320] I also love the hype man, DJ.
[28:19.320 --> 28:25.160] It feels like he's probably the MC, the, of, of this particular event, I wonder if, if
[28:25.160 --> 28:31.560] they got the actual guy that does it in from, from Oklahoma, I wonder if that's who they
[28:31.560 --> 28:34.200] got, because he said it seems really comfortable.
[28:35.200 --> 28:38.320] She hasn't been calling it when, when big moments were happening.
[28:38.320 --> 28:42.720] But part of this, I suppose, because we're going to talk about Maya separately in her
[28:42.720 --> 28:46.000] own point, because that's really the big culmination of the episode.
[28:46.000 --> 28:51.840] But I do like the Henry and Biscuits both get a moment in the series, you know, because
[28:51.840 --> 28:56.120] they have been so involved in the series, you know, but I like that Biscuits goes off
[28:56.120 --> 28:58.960] to get himself a, a monster truck.
[28:58.960 --> 29:02.320] There is a part of the event itself as a monster truck element, but he goes and steals
[29:02.320 --> 29:06.320] a monster truck or takes a monster truck to take out some of, of Zayn's men who are
[29:06.320 --> 29:07.320] waiting in the trucks.
[29:07.320 --> 29:08.320] Well, that's, yeah.
[29:08.320 --> 29:11.640] And I like how Henry is saying, well, if you got yourself a gun, you know, it's going
[29:11.640 --> 29:15.000] to be dangerous because I've got something better and it's, yeah, just the monster
[29:15.000 --> 29:16.000] truck.
[29:16.000 --> 29:17.000] Yeah.
[29:17.000 --> 29:18.000] Very cool.
[29:18.000 --> 29:23.480] Was that shadowed anyway in the, the earlier episode, was it anyway put like, was it because
[29:23.480 --> 29:24.480] I can't remember.
[29:24.480 --> 29:30.280] But then I now in my head, I'm like, wait, was that going to be like, because of that scene
[29:30.280 --> 29:32.560] where we saw him go to the junkyard.
[29:32.560 --> 29:33.560] Yeah.
[29:33.560 --> 29:37.520] Was there a monster truck in there in the background or something that we just missed?
[29:37.520 --> 29:40.880] I think that they just mentioned in this episode that there are monsters, there's a monster
[29:40.880 --> 29:42.320] truck row you that goes on.
[29:42.320 --> 29:44.440] So he takes one of those, but you're absolutely right.
[29:44.440 --> 29:48.720] Given what had happened earlier on the season with the way Maya broke out of the bowling alley
[29:48.720 --> 29:55.800] by building herself her own weapon from scratch and the way we had Skully build the leg for,
[29:56.200 --> 30:01.800] Maya, like an 18 type moment, you'd also probably have biscuits building his own car from scratch
[30:01.800 --> 30:02.800] if he had time.
[30:02.800 --> 30:06.160] But here he just goes, okay, well, I could have used the junkyard, but I have about 10.
[30:06.160 --> 30:12.060] I'm just going to take the keys from the monster truck and drive it over the top of Zane's
[30:12.060 --> 30:13.060] man.
[30:13.060 --> 30:19.240] But it's Henry that gets to take out Zane, which I like because of that coming full circle
[30:19.240 --> 30:24.960] from when Zane came to take back Maya, he didn't think Maya was there, looked at Henry
[30:24.960 --> 30:27.960] and kind of went, well, that's the prizes that everybody wants anyway.
[30:27.960 --> 30:31.640] This is the guy that escaped from New York, escaped from Kingpin's clutches, as we heard
[30:31.640 --> 30:35.280] in the conversation between Maya and Henry last episode.
[30:35.280 --> 30:37.920] He's the one that escaped and got back at Tamaha.
[30:37.920 --> 30:42.120] So that was going to be Zane's prize since he couldn't get Maya or didn't think he could
[30:42.120 --> 30:43.120] back in the bowling alley.
[30:43.120 --> 30:48.000] And here we have Henry taking him out with one shot to the heart.
[30:48.000 --> 30:49.000] Yes.
[30:49.000 --> 30:50.560] Well, absolutely.
[30:50.560 --> 30:55.160] And also just the look on Zane's face as well, as he has an RPG.
[30:55.160 --> 31:02.200] I mean, this is like, everyone at the powwow has no idea what's going on, except for Biscuit's
[31:02.200 --> 31:04.800] Henry and Maya.
[31:04.800 --> 31:05.800] So classic.
[31:05.800 --> 31:10.400] Oh, the fireworks are stars, but I, you know, I thought it was really good.
[31:10.400 --> 31:11.400] Yeah.
[31:11.400 --> 31:12.400] I enjoyed this.
[31:12.400 --> 31:20.520] I thought it was, I thought it was an interesting, like you said, a way to bring it off full circle
[31:21.520 --> 31:27.800] with the depth of Zane, but I was kind of hoping he survived.
[31:27.800 --> 31:28.800] Really?
[31:28.800 --> 31:32.280] I actually enjoyed his character, especially in episode three.
[31:32.280 --> 31:33.280] Yeah.
[31:33.280 --> 31:36.840] So I'm just like, he would have been good in there that were born again.
[31:36.840 --> 31:37.840] Okay.
[31:37.840 --> 31:41.800] That's what it fits, operatives kind of just as a low life new thing.
[31:41.800 --> 31:45.840] And you just make him a bit more wacky and crazy as it goes on.
[31:45.840 --> 31:49.840] So the fact he's gone, I'm like, okay, you've just killed another one.
[31:49.840 --> 31:51.600] I was interested in, but good.
[31:51.600 --> 31:52.600] Okay.
[31:52.600 --> 31:53.600] Hey, Chris.
[31:53.600 --> 31:57.760] All I can say is this entire series was built on the premise of Wilson Fisk getting a bullet
[31:57.760 --> 32:04.360] point blank to the head and Henry shot this guy from across the way, took him out, stopped
[32:04.360 --> 32:07.680] the RPG from going, which doesn't necessarily mean that he's dead.
[32:07.680 --> 32:14.920] It could be, could literally just be kind of lying down and arrested as the cops come
[32:14.920 --> 32:15.920] in.
[32:15.920 --> 32:16.920] Yeah.
[32:16.920 --> 32:21.240] I mean, it's a good style head shot to be the only way that people are got.
[32:21.240 --> 32:25.240] Henry needs to walk over and double tap.
[32:25.240 --> 32:26.240] Yeah.
[32:26.240 --> 32:27.240] Always dole tap.
[32:27.240 --> 32:32.240] But I guess that's it for the, the pathway showed end of the beginning of that.
[32:32.240 --> 32:33.240] Yeah.
[32:33.240 --> 32:39.480] I think we can move on to our fight point number four, the echo of the ancestors through Maya
[32:39.480 --> 32:46.240] as she goes to confront Fisk and save to learn Bonnie.
[32:46.240 --> 32:47.240] Really?
[32:47.240 --> 32:48.240] Yeah.
[32:48.240 --> 32:51.200] This is the culmination of, of the series, really, isn't it?
[32:51.200 --> 32:52.200] Yeah.
[32:52.200 --> 32:53.200] Absolutely.
[32:53.200 --> 32:56.880] So I'm going to go negative because I want to end on a positive for this.
[32:56.880 --> 33:00.080] This went by so quickly.
[33:00.080 --> 33:01.640] This was a short piece.
[33:01.640 --> 33:05.840] It felt like like five minutes, that's all it felt like.
[33:05.840 --> 33:14.480] And then I understand it probably was a bit longer, but it was just for the finale, for
[33:14.480 --> 33:18.760] the culmination, for the everything.
[33:18.760 --> 33:24.280] We had a longer fight scene in the, the roller rink and I was just like, I was expecting
[33:24.280 --> 33:29.440] a bit more of it now that she was fully powered.
[33:29.440 --> 33:35.520] If you want to call it that's like, she had, she had, I thought the bit, she shared her
[33:35.520 --> 33:36.520] powers.
[33:36.520 --> 33:42.520] I was expecting like, I didn't another 20 men, 10 men, whatever, a bit more, because they
[33:42.520 --> 33:48.800] always had all the men in the, in the vans, but especially another van or something,
[33:48.800 --> 33:55.520] a man just coming in and then giving us a bit more, I want to say razmataz, okay, a bit
[33:55.520 --> 34:02.840] more finale, a bit more just, I know this is like the street level, yeah, like, and I
[34:02.840 --> 34:09.120] understand it's not trying to be that over the top cinematic battles to end all bottles.
[34:09.120 --> 34:10.120] Yeah.
[34:10.120 --> 34:14.760] And then I expected a bit more, because that's criticism that the MCU gets all the time and
[34:14.760 --> 34:19.520] even did themselves in She-Hulk, that we, we get to the final episode, so all that's
[34:19.520 --> 34:24.440] going to be is your main character punching people in the face for, for 60 minutes, right?
[34:24.440 --> 34:25.440] Exactly.
[34:25.440 --> 34:30.920] And so then if you do that, the choice makes sense because it's to do with the theme of
[34:30.920 --> 34:32.400] the entire series here.
[34:32.400 --> 34:33.400] I agree.
[34:33.400 --> 34:38.440] And look, that's, so the criticism was I just wanted more, a few more minutes of this,
[34:38.440 --> 34:43.240] that being said, what we got was fantastic.
[34:43.240 --> 34:50.600] This confrontation between Maya and Fisk and how it is resolved, and that way, it was like
[34:50.600 --> 34:53.480] perfectly thematically for this show.
[34:53.480 --> 34:54.480] Yeah.
[34:54.480 --> 35:03.960] The echoing of ages, the bloodline, the empowerment of this generation of women, different generations
[35:03.960 --> 35:10.280] of women, or actually body and Maya the same, but you understand, it's just that kind of
[35:10.280 --> 35:11.280] that piece.
[35:11.280 --> 35:17.760] And then how and what it ends with in terms of the, is the interesting piece.
[35:17.760 --> 35:18.760] Yeah.
[35:18.760 --> 35:21.800] And there's a bit of punchy, punchy in there, so it's great, but I want it more punchy,
[35:21.800 --> 35:22.800] punchy.
[35:22.800 --> 35:23.800] I'll just say that.
[35:23.800 --> 35:24.800] Yeah.
[35:24.800 --> 35:25.800] I love this.
[35:25.800 --> 35:26.800] I loved how it was shot as well.
[35:26.800 --> 35:27.800] I was put together.
[35:27.800 --> 35:33.520] That scene where you see each of her ancestors sitting in Maya's position just after taking
[35:33.520 --> 35:38.840] that punch, each of them there, all forming together, and then separating out to be standing
[35:38.840 --> 35:43.960] right by her side, exactly as Taloa had said to her, that she was not alone.
[35:43.960 --> 35:45.560] She is surrounded by ancestors.
[35:45.560 --> 35:48.200] I thought it was just so excellently executed.
[35:48.200 --> 35:49.200] Yeah.
[35:49.200 --> 35:50.200] It was really good.
[35:50.200 --> 35:51.200] I love that too.
[35:51.200 --> 35:59.640] Just having that representation was so good of seeing them in place where Maya is and then
[35:59.640 --> 36:00.800] separated out.
[36:00.800 --> 36:08.480] I love that Chula and Bonnie get to kick ass on their captors as well.
[36:08.480 --> 36:16.400] And I like that ultimately, yeah, there's the fights and so on, but I like that as Fisk
[36:16.400 --> 36:25.120] decides or needs to get in to the action to control Maya, because you see all these men
[36:25.120 --> 36:26.640] are being taken down.
[36:26.640 --> 36:35.800] I love the fact that with his arms raised, it's Maya going in with the symbol that her
[36:35.800 --> 36:43.960] mom uses to heal in order to sort of make Fisk confront his own demons.
[36:43.960 --> 36:44.960] Absolutely.
[36:44.960 --> 36:45.960] Which was really good.
[36:45.960 --> 36:48.400] I just thought it was different.
[36:48.400 --> 36:56.320] Again, it's the upending of the expectations, because you've heard from Chula's house, these
[36:56.320 --> 37:03.480] different elements around ferocity, strategy, cunning, all this, and in the end, it's healing.
[37:03.480 --> 37:09.320] In a sense, love that Maya is using here.
[37:09.320 --> 37:15.880] She's used the ferocity, the strategy, and the cunning in terms of to get to this moment,
[37:15.880 --> 37:23.280] to infiltrate into the power, to get to the barn, all this, and I like that all these gifts
[37:23.280 --> 37:25.320] are being used in this moment.
[37:25.320 --> 37:29.560] Yeah, I'm going back to that initial moment at the beginning of the episode where her mother
[37:29.560 --> 37:33.960] tells her we don't harm living things, and part of the power that she has is this power
[37:33.960 --> 37:35.280] of love and healing.
[37:35.280 --> 37:40.880] So, to use it that way was really cool to see Fisk coming at her with his full force and
[37:40.880 --> 37:46.600] her able to stop him using that healing way just worked so well for the themes for me.
[37:46.600 --> 37:53.680] I do have a theory as well as she passes the power to Chula and to Bonnie, because Chula
[37:53.680 --> 37:56.920] heard is one of the ancestors that this power has passed through, right?
[37:56.920 --> 38:01.800] So, she already has it, she's tapping into it there with the help of Maya, but we didn't
[38:01.800 --> 38:02.800] see that with Bonnie.
[38:02.800 --> 38:09.560] Bonnie's a cousin, she's not direct bloodline back to Chaffa as we heard Maya is, but we
[38:09.560 --> 38:15.240] did talk about the fact that Devory Jacobs played Kehori in What If, I wonder if she
[38:15.240 --> 38:19.640] has the connection back through her bloodline separately to Kehori.
[38:19.640 --> 38:20.640] Yeah, possibly.
[38:20.640 --> 38:21.640] It's a possibility, isn't it?
[38:21.720 --> 38:22.720] Oh, that could be.
[38:22.720 --> 38:23.720] That could be what Maya is doing.
[38:23.720 --> 38:31.200] I took it in that, like, because it was basing Maya's, Bonnie's mother is Maya's mother's
[38:31.200 --> 38:32.200] sister.
[38:32.200 --> 38:33.200] Yeah.
[38:33.200 --> 38:34.920] There's still a connection to that bloodline.
[38:34.920 --> 38:39.000] It's still all the way, so it's just the women on it.
[38:39.000 --> 38:44.440] But again, I'm just trying to give them an out to write a Kehori series with Bonnie starring
[38:44.440 --> 38:45.440] in it.
[38:45.520 --> 38:52.440] I'm trying to say Kehori is Kehori's daughter went on to marry someone in the Chakkha nation,
[38:52.440 --> 38:54.960] and that's how you bleed them together.
[38:54.960 --> 38:55.960] Maybe it's that.
[38:55.960 --> 39:05.200] Yeah, because it's as well, Kehori is much later around the Spanish sort of invasion of
[39:05.200 --> 39:06.200] the Americas.
[39:06.200 --> 39:11.200] She's actually hundreds, and she's in a different nation after Native Americans, yeah.
[39:11.200 --> 39:18.640] And going into Maya trying to connect Fisk back to his pain and trauma, I guess there's
[39:18.640 --> 39:23.160] a little bit more background around that.
[39:23.160 --> 39:29.040] You have the wall that you saw in Daredevil season one, when hearing the sounds of his
[39:29.040 --> 39:32.280] mother being beaten by his father and that trauma.
[39:32.280 --> 39:38.800] So a bit like you were saying, Chris, that not having that context, a little bit more leaking
[39:38.800 --> 39:46.520] in, not entirely, you know, seven or eight episodes of a season, but again, it's just
[39:46.520 --> 39:54.680] referencing those touch points to Fisk's, I guess, origin story in a sense.
[39:54.680 --> 39:56.160] That was in a snowstorm.
[39:56.160 --> 40:00.000] Yeah, which is kind of like the wall was called rabbit in a snowstorm where he was watching
[40:00.000 --> 40:03.560] that white wall with the flex on us while his mum and dad are having that fight outside,
[40:03.560 --> 40:07.600] which did lead to Fisk murdering his father.
[40:07.600 --> 40:12.600] So she takes him all the way back to that moment in time to do what her mother did for
[40:12.600 --> 40:18.600] her, try and heal the pain, try and heal this pivotal moment in his life, not having to
[40:18.600 --> 40:21.560] be the only thing that has power over Fisk, right?
[40:21.560 --> 40:25.360] So she's kind of taken away that connection or trying to take away that connection in the
[40:25.360 --> 40:26.360] moment here.
[40:26.360 --> 40:27.360] Yeah, no, absolutely.
[40:27.360 --> 40:33.600] Again, it's the other, you know, string to the guitar, I guess, of Maya.
[40:33.600 --> 40:40.560] I think the other interesting thing here before that power of the ancestors flowing
[40:40.560 --> 40:47.160] through Maya is Fisk does admit to killing her father here as well.
[40:47.160 --> 40:56.960] And you have, you know, from Maya following the vision of her mum saying, I'm their legacy
[40:56.960 --> 41:00.120] and a part of them, I'm not your legacy.
[41:00.120 --> 41:01.120] Exactly.
[41:01.120 --> 41:05.440] And really, you know, she's kind of made that choice here.
[41:05.440 --> 41:14.680] And I kind of really liked the idea that in the same way of what echoes through Maya's
[41:14.680 --> 41:21.360] life, she is affected this healing, trying to see what has echoed through Fisk's life
[41:21.360 --> 41:29.320] to make him here he is as well, so it's a really good use of this kind of motif, really.
[41:29.320 --> 41:30.320] Yeah.
[41:30.320 --> 41:31.320] And it's massive as well.
[41:31.320 --> 41:35.640] You know, we talked about the offer last week from Fisk to say, come back to New York,
[41:35.640 --> 41:36.640] you become the queenpin.
[41:36.640 --> 41:41.400] She turned them down and now I'm going to murder all of your family.
[41:41.400 --> 41:43.960] I can see how close you are with the family.
[41:43.960 --> 41:44.960] You've shown me that.
[41:44.960 --> 41:45.960] You've told me that.
[41:45.960 --> 41:48.520] Now I know how much pain I'm going to cause you when I murder them all.
[41:48.520 --> 41:50.720] You know, it's the brutality of Fisk.
[41:50.720 --> 41:54.640] We've seen that right back to, as we talked about the rabbit in the headlights, the murdering
[41:54.640 --> 41:55.640] of his father.
[41:55.640 --> 42:03.080] In his brutality, when he switches, he switches to full, brutal, killing nature.
[42:03.080 --> 42:04.400] And that's what's happened with Maya.
[42:04.400 --> 42:05.760] She has made that choice.
[42:05.760 --> 42:09.120] She's said to him, I'm not going to do what you want me to do.
[42:09.120 --> 42:13.280] And that's not something you say to Wilson Fisk and his choices.
[42:13.280 --> 42:14.280] Violence.
[42:14.280 --> 42:15.280] Yeah.
[42:15.280 --> 42:16.280] And what does she heal?
[42:16.280 --> 42:17.280] This is the question.
[42:17.280 --> 42:20.160] I was like, what did she do to him?
[42:20.160 --> 42:22.120] What does she take or heal or take away?
[42:22.120 --> 42:26.440] Because I can guess, but it's not specifically called out.
[42:26.440 --> 42:30.520] I think, you know, the reaction from Fisk is what did you do to me exactly, you know,
[42:30.520 --> 42:36.480] but what's happening here is, as I say, exactly what Taloa did for Maya.
[42:36.480 --> 42:41.880] The death of her mother is the connection that Maya has to her past and has led her into the
[42:41.880 --> 42:45.360] position that she's in, the pain that she felt, the separation from her family, all of
[42:45.360 --> 42:50.120] those things that led Maya to lead the life that she did working for Kingpin, thinking,
[42:50.120 --> 42:53.160] it's okay to harm other living things.
[42:53.160 --> 42:56.640] All of that came from the pain she had from losing Taloa.
[42:56.640 --> 43:00.320] Taloa used that pair, healed Maya, separated her from that.
[43:00.320 --> 43:04.160] It is something that happened absolutely, but it can't define the rest of your life is basically
[43:04.160 --> 43:06.800] the point from what happened with Taloa.
[43:06.800 --> 43:08.680] And now Maya's doing the same.
[43:08.680 --> 43:09.680] She's paying it forward.
[43:09.680 --> 43:11.320] She's passing that on to Fisk.
[43:11.320 --> 43:14.120] Yes, a massively painful moment in your life.
[43:14.120 --> 43:16.240] Your father was beating your mother.
[43:16.240 --> 43:17.800] You killed him.
[43:17.800 --> 43:20.640] You took that power and killed him.
[43:20.640 --> 43:23.600] But that shouldn't be the defining point for your entire life.
[43:23.600 --> 43:30.040] So she's taken away or at least helped to heal that wound that has defined Fisk's life
[43:30.040 --> 43:31.280] for his entirety.
[43:31.280 --> 43:35.680] The only connection that's similar to this is in the comic books.
[43:35.680 --> 43:38.160] This is how Fisk becomes mayor.
[43:38.160 --> 43:44.440] This is the storyline of Devil's Rain, where in the comics, anyway, the children of Kill
[43:44.440 --> 43:49.280] Grave, which was one of the characters who could bend people's mind, the children
[43:49.280 --> 43:55.760] of Killgrave were used by Daredevil to take away Wilson Fisk's knowledge of his past violent
[43:55.760 --> 44:00.840] crimes, making him think that he is a good person and making him run for mayor of New
[44:00.840 --> 44:01.840] York.
[44:01.840 --> 44:05.920] So there is a comic book connection to the fact that Maya's gone in there, messed with
[44:05.920 --> 44:11.320] his past and effectively maybe cured him and healed him of that past history.
[44:11.320 --> 44:18.800] Yeah, I'd be interesting to see because I want to know because that kill, that brutality
[44:18.800 --> 44:22.360] is what made Fisk Fisk.
[44:22.360 --> 44:28.320] And yeah, it's interesting to see that we know he is in Born Again, the dead of though.
[44:28.320 --> 44:29.480] So is it a different Fisk?
[44:29.480 --> 44:31.720] No, a different, you know what I mean?
[44:31.720 --> 44:33.400] Is it Fisk Born Again?
[44:33.400 --> 44:34.880] He's no longer actually the bad guy.
[44:34.880 --> 44:35.880] I'm not murdered.
[44:35.880 --> 44:40.600] I could going after him kind of going, your king being like, no, no, no, no, I'm reformed.
[44:40.600 --> 44:44.160] I'm good type of thing, is it going to be interesting to see?
[44:44.160 --> 44:45.160] Absolutely.
[44:45.160 --> 44:47.560] It may not have gone that deep, I guess.
[44:47.560 --> 44:55.040] It could just be more that this is put a wedge in the door for Fisk and maybe, you know,
[44:55.040 --> 45:03.680] I think with our 5.5 around Fisk the mayor, I think it's, you know, he's looking at that
[45:03.680 --> 45:07.480] news story just in a different way.
[45:07.480 --> 45:11.720] You know, I mean, I think what is happening here is that power of healing, but it's not
[45:11.720 --> 45:17.680] necessarily saying it's instant in this case, like with Killgrave, which is almost a blocking.
[45:17.680 --> 45:18.680] Yeah.
[45:18.680 --> 45:24.120] This is saying, this is Maya saying, you need to confront what you've done.
[45:24.120 --> 45:27.840] And that's what she's making him relive it, confront it.
[45:27.840 --> 45:33.920] And as she says, you know, this can't then define you, you have to move on.
[45:33.920 --> 45:40.240] So I think it's not as such that he is a changed man in the same way that in devils
[45:40.240 --> 45:41.400] reign, it happens.
[45:41.400 --> 45:47.560] And I think this is saying that a seed has been planted here in the same way that we've
[45:47.560 --> 45:53.640] seen through the whole of this season for echo with the visions sporadically coming
[45:53.640 --> 45:54.640] to her.
[45:54.640 --> 46:05.320] There's an evolution to it and maybe that's what ultimately is a way for Daredevil born
[46:05.320 --> 46:11.280] again in terms of that role that Fisk plays and how that story will unfold.
[46:11.280 --> 46:13.600] But I guess it's left to wait and see.
[46:13.600 --> 46:14.600] Yeah.
[46:14.600 --> 46:15.600] Yeah.
[46:15.600 --> 46:18.720] Like I absolutely love Vincent and Alfred on the role of Wilson Fisk, but you know, we've
[46:18.720 --> 46:22.480] seen it for three seasons and now for echo and for Hawkeye, we've seen him.
[46:22.480 --> 46:23.480] He's the bad guy.
[46:23.480 --> 46:24.480] Go beat him up.
[46:24.480 --> 46:25.480] Go kill him.
[46:25.480 --> 46:26.480] He's the leader.
[46:26.480 --> 46:29.880] So a change to his character might be quite interesting to explore.
[46:29.880 --> 46:31.800] He's a fantastic actor, very versatile.
[46:31.800 --> 46:35.640] So having a change in his character for the next time we see him and the impact that has
[46:35.640 --> 46:38.360] on everybody that just assumes he's the bad guy, right?
[46:38.360 --> 46:43.360] We saw a little bit of that in Daredevil season three, but he was pretending in that season.
[46:43.360 --> 46:51.200] But the idea that he may have changed and this encounter with echo has had that massive
[46:51.200 --> 46:53.160] impact on his life.
[46:53.160 --> 46:54.160] I think we'll be really interested.
[46:54.160 --> 46:55.160] Yeah.
[46:55.160 --> 46:59.080] And it's like classic thing that we've seen in the comics, like with Lex Luthor in DC World,
[46:59.080 --> 47:03.120] you know, what happens if he becomes president and Norman Osborne as well, where they get
[47:03.120 --> 47:07.680] into positions of democratically elected power and what that happens.
[47:07.680 --> 47:09.720] And I said, we're seeing it with Trump.
[47:09.720 --> 47:15.960] So it might be a long bat analogy that they play it and who knows he might actually be in
[47:15.960 --> 47:16.960] there.
[47:16.960 --> 47:21.160] I hope Maya would heal whatever pain is causing that before he gets into it.
[47:21.160 --> 47:22.160] So position higher again.
[47:22.160 --> 47:27.080] Well, I didn't want to take it down that line, but it is a really interesting concept to
[47:27.080 --> 47:28.080] take it this way.
[47:28.080 --> 47:34.040] And again, it turns callable origin stories of its head in a way, I think.
[47:34.040 --> 47:38.880] I think this is a really, really important message in its own way.
[47:38.880 --> 47:43.460] There's lots of people, pretty much everybody has something in their past that could have
[47:43.460 --> 47:48.000] defined them and set them up in a way for the rest of their life.
[47:48.000 --> 47:52.480] You can say I was born into poverty, that has had an impact on me, and that can make
[47:52.480 --> 47:58.280] you make choices to go down a path of criminality or to go down a path of making sure that your
[47:58.280 --> 48:03.160] whole family are taken care of in the future by whatever path you choose to go down.
[48:03.160 --> 48:06.400] But that can't be the only thing that defines you for your entire life.
[48:06.400 --> 48:12.680] And a lot of people who have really bad moments in the life choose that to define them.
[48:12.680 --> 48:15.520] And what we're saying here, this is what happened in comic books all the time, they
[48:15.520 --> 48:20.240] go, well, this character is created in 1963, when this moment happened to them.
[48:20.240 --> 48:24.160] And then for the next 70 years, they act as exactly the same character over and over again.
[48:24.160 --> 48:28.120] And what's happening here, my is going, doesn't have to be that way.
[48:28.120 --> 48:30.360] She's calling in, the show is calling out.
[48:30.360 --> 48:32.000] You can overcome trauma.
[48:32.000 --> 48:37.520] You can overcome your past, get a bit of health, get a family around you, get people to take
[48:37.520 --> 48:41.040] care of you, get people to work it through with you.
[48:41.040 --> 48:43.040] And you may be able to overcome that.
[48:43.040 --> 48:48.440] Here it's a magical power that she's severed that link for Fisk, or at least started to sever
[48:48.440 --> 48:53.000] that link to that one defining moment that has led them into this massive life of violence.
[48:53.000 --> 48:57.800] But I think it's a really interesting exploration of that in a really short moment, or the interesting
[48:57.800 --> 49:04.200] idea it sparks, at least in me, thoughts for the discussion about the impact of Echo as
[49:04.200 --> 49:05.200] a show.
[49:05.200 --> 49:06.200] Yeah.
[49:06.200 --> 49:12.520] And we see with her own pain that Maya is further down that healing journey in the way that
[49:12.520 --> 49:18.760] then she goes to Chula's house to connect back with her family.
[49:18.760 --> 49:19.760] Yeah.
[49:19.760 --> 49:23.200] She's not seen in 20 years.
[49:23.200 --> 49:24.200] Pretty much, yeah.
[49:24.200 --> 49:26.320] They do set it up to make you look like she is leaving.
[49:26.320 --> 49:28.680] And I was like, very much, I was like, oh, okay.
[49:28.680 --> 49:31.280] So they're just going to have her as this kind of wandering bit.
[49:31.280 --> 49:32.920] And then she stops off.
[49:32.920 --> 49:34.480] I'm like, okay, so she's staying.
[49:34.480 --> 49:35.480] Yeah.
[49:35.480 --> 49:36.480] Yeah.
[49:36.480 --> 49:39.600] Like the other big question that it sparked to me this moment and the ending of this episode
[49:39.600 --> 49:46.600] is, is there anything else for Maya, the character to do in the Marvel Cinematic Universe?
[49:46.600 --> 49:51.280] Because what has effectively led to these powers and what we've learned from Chula and
[49:51.280 --> 49:56.440] everything that we have here is that she is now the protector of the Choctaw Nation.
[49:56.440 --> 49:58.240] She's the protector of her people.
[49:58.240 --> 50:04.000] So unless they do, I don't know, home alone to the Choctaw Nation, go on a trip to New York.
[50:04.000 --> 50:08.600] And then she's she's the protector of them from Fisk's men who attack them when they're
[50:08.600 --> 50:10.400] in New York.
[50:10.400 --> 50:15.320] It seems that her powers are ancestral and to do with the people that are around her, the
[50:15.320 --> 50:18.880] family that are around her, that she will protect the family and then we'll use the violence
[50:18.880 --> 50:22.160] because if she's not doing that, then she's on the dark side.
[50:22.160 --> 50:23.800] Then she's on the side of Fisk.
[50:23.800 --> 50:28.840] She's fighting and killing people that aren't attacking her family, attacking her Choctaw Nation.
[50:28.840 --> 50:32.760] But I think it's, I think it's more than just that because I think it's also about what
[50:32.760 --> 50:39.280] she brings to the powers or the power set that has echoed through a ferocity, strategy,
[50:39.280 --> 50:40.280] cunning and love.
[50:40.280 --> 50:48.080] So what is Maya bringing to that, then other people and the future generations will be able
[50:48.080 --> 50:55.000] to tap into because we've seen that all these people tapping into it along the timeline
[50:55.000 --> 50:56.680] that's been presented here.
[50:56.680 --> 50:58.760] So it is about that.
[50:58.760 --> 51:01.680] But I think it's a collective thing.
[51:01.680 --> 51:05.880] This is about other people then being able to draw upon it.
[51:05.880 --> 51:12.120] And so it doesn't mean to say that she now has to reside in Tamaha, I don't think, which
[51:12.120 --> 51:14.080] I think is the important thing.
[51:14.080 --> 51:20.400] And in fairness, like you say, it does look like she's leaving and it could be that she's
[51:20.400 --> 51:21.720] just stopping off.
[51:21.720 --> 51:22.720] We don't know.
[51:22.720 --> 51:23.720] I mean, we just don't know.
[51:23.720 --> 51:26.720] I feel that that's her returning to her family.
[51:26.720 --> 51:31.200] I feel like she's got everything with her because she was going to leave, remember, before
[51:31.200 --> 51:35.080] she went to the palace, she had everything with her.
[51:35.080 --> 51:37.960] But I think that's her reconnecting with her family here.
[51:37.960 --> 51:40.440] That's her not saying I'm leaving tomorrow.
[51:40.440 --> 51:44.520] That's her saying I'm going back and staying here because now I feel part of the community.
[51:44.520 --> 51:46.480] I feel part of the generations.
[51:46.480 --> 51:48.120] I feel part of this family.
[51:48.120 --> 51:50.280] I think the important thing is they lasted open ended.
[51:50.280 --> 51:51.280] Yes.
[51:51.280 --> 51:52.280] Exactly.
[51:52.280 --> 51:56.680] They did not, they did not fully set and say, yeah, that's the end of echo.
[51:56.680 --> 52:00.880] We'll not return in the Marvel Cinematic Universe because they didn't say one way or
[52:00.880 --> 52:06.760] the other because to be fair, usually when they want to, when they have a definitive plan,
[52:06.760 --> 52:13.400] we'll call it definitive loosely, they do put the bumper at the end, echo will return,
[52:13.400 --> 52:18.200] hop, I will return, blah, blah, blah, will return, Miss Marvel will return like that.
[52:18.200 --> 52:23.360] They will say those words on a black screen with white text.
[52:23.360 --> 52:25.600] That's usually what they do.
[52:25.600 --> 52:30.260] They didn't on this, but they also left it somewhat like they didn't say that she's no
[52:30.260 --> 52:31.800] longer has her powers.
[52:31.800 --> 52:33.920] They haven't like done anything like that.
[52:33.920 --> 52:41.920] So in the new Avengers film, we probably will see Maya there probably is a background character
[52:41.920 --> 52:44.120] fighting in the big battle at the end.
[52:44.120 --> 52:45.120] Me.
[52:45.120 --> 52:46.120] Potentially.
[52:46.120 --> 52:50.520] That's one thing or the next street level build up when they have iron fist and daredevil
[52:50.520 --> 52:53.720] and blah, blah, hot guy and everyone's back.
[52:53.720 --> 52:56.000] They can potentially bring her back.
[52:56.000 --> 53:01.840] When they need to, they have that character available to them.
[53:01.840 --> 53:08.560] I offended interesting that they didn't directly say because I'm like, interesting.
[53:08.560 --> 53:12.720] So you do don't have a definitive plan with this character.
[53:12.720 --> 53:18.560] So like this seems more now to me like where will find out a month, which is they now
[53:18.560 --> 53:24.120] have these reserved characters from these special presentations from the premiere kind
[53:24.120 --> 53:27.880] of that they can't dip into and pull when they really want to.
[53:27.880 --> 53:29.720] And if it's big enough, it's such a draw.
[53:29.720 --> 53:33.360] They may expand upon it.
[53:33.360 --> 53:34.360] But they didn't.
[53:34.360 --> 53:38.360] And I think this is again just going to be a wait and see.
[53:38.360 --> 53:39.360] Yeah.
[53:39.360 --> 53:42.600] It was a massive risk for Disney Plus to do a TVMA show, right?
[53:42.600 --> 53:46.960] That's the big risk here and way before daredevil's coming out, they haven't done one since the
[53:46.960 --> 53:47.960] Netflix shows.
[53:47.960 --> 53:51.560] And those were ported over after most fans had watched them on Netflix, right?
[53:51.560 --> 53:55.840] So so they can't test the waters unless they do a TVMA show.
[53:55.840 --> 53:59.960] And you know, all of their movies have been general audience PG movies.
[53:59.960 --> 54:05.080] So bringing in the character of Echo or committing to bring her into the wider Marvel universe
[54:05.080 --> 54:09.080] when most of their audience wouldn't have been able to see who the character was before.
[54:09.080 --> 54:10.640] That's a big commitment for them to do.
[54:10.640 --> 54:14.520] So I'm glad to hear it seems the ratings have been really good.
[54:14.520 --> 54:20.440] Overall, the viewership has been really good, at least, if not specifically the usual kind
[54:20.440 --> 54:22.000] of ratings that Marvel got for everything.
[54:22.000 --> 54:23.800] It's pretty average in there.
[54:23.800 --> 54:27.520] It's pretty standard in there from the kind of ratings that Marvel got for anything they
[54:27.520 --> 54:28.520] put out there.
[54:28.520 --> 54:31.640] But the viewership has been reasonably high and there are conversations about bringing the
[54:31.640 --> 54:32.680] character back in future.
[54:32.680 --> 54:37.400] But they couldn't have committed to it because they were testing something brand new here with
[54:37.400 --> 54:41.000] the violence level for Disney Plus.
[54:41.400 --> 54:49.120] But speaking of bringing back existing characters, let's move to briefly to our 5.5, which we've
[54:49.120 --> 54:53.360] kind of already kind of discussed to some degree.
[54:53.360 --> 54:55.320] But that is Fisk for Mayor.
[54:55.320 --> 54:56.320] Yeah.
[54:56.320 --> 55:02.800] Because, you know, the likelihood that here sort of drawing off the devil's reign arc and
[55:02.800 --> 55:06.000] leading into the devil born again.
[55:06.000 --> 55:07.000] Yeah.
[55:07.000 --> 55:08.000] Yeah, absolutely.
[55:08.000 --> 55:10.280] Massive storyline in the comic books at the time.
[55:10.280 --> 55:15.360] One of those really surprising ones because front covers of comic books had Fisk for Mayor
[55:15.360 --> 55:21.120] written on them, you know, showing that Wilson Fisk became Mayor of New York, quite a big
[55:21.120 --> 55:22.880] comic book arc.
[55:22.880 --> 55:28.360] So interested to see it coming in at the end of the episode in this post credit scene.
[55:28.360 --> 55:32.200] And again, you know, it's interesting that it's almost inspired by Echo.
[55:32.200 --> 55:38.120] So there will be this lasting impact from the show into leading into Daredevil born
[55:38.120 --> 55:39.120] again.
[55:39.120 --> 55:42.520] And it's again, as I mentioned earlier on, it is similar to the arc in season three of
[55:42.520 --> 55:46.520] Daredevil, where everybody thought that maybe Wilson Fisk had turned over in New Leaf and
[55:46.520 --> 55:47.520] become a good guy, right?
[55:47.520 --> 55:48.520] Yeah.
[55:48.520 --> 55:51.920] So it's all connected in that way to this story going forward.
[55:51.920 --> 55:52.920] Yeah.
[55:52.920 --> 55:57.960] And I look, I'm really interested to see where they go with this because for me, it's they
[55:57.960 --> 56:03.920] are building what I can only assume is going to be the Marvel and Netflix, kind of mini
[56:03.920 --> 56:07.200] universe in that is that more mature aspects.
[56:07.200 --> 56:14.160] It's these showcases, it's these ones that are figure adults and are going to be just
[56:14.160 --> 56:19.480] more kind of bit more violent, mature themes, and it will be his own pocket universe.
[56:19.480 --> 56:24.880] I want to say pocket because just they'll sprinkle in these characters later into the other
[56:24.880 --> 56:26.360] movies and shows.
[56:26.360 --> 56:27.760] But not as much.
[56:27.760 --> 56:33.920] But you don't want is the kids, the young ones going, well, I wouldn't know about Fisk.
[56:33.920 --> 56:39.040] What's that hammer therefore, like they're going to try and separate, but they're going
[56:39.040 --> 56:45.360] to try and do as much of this actually app for Daredevil, a separation between church and
[56:45.360 --> 56:46.360] state.
[56:46.360 --> 56:47.360] They're going to try.
[56:47.360 --> 56:48.360] Maybe, maybe.
[56:48.360 --> 56:53.520] Because it gives them options, I suppose that's the big point, you know, their shows
[56:53.520 --> 56:57.280] can de-mass everybody over 35 to watch them.
[56:57.280 --> 57:02.160] They have to have a wide audience for most of the major production that they do, but it's
[57:02.160 --> 57:06.520] great that they have these kind of side projects that can aim at a smaller audience.
[57:06.520 --> 57:07.520] Great stuff.
[57:07.520 --> 57:09.960] I only have one note from the episode, just interesting that we saw Bonnie at the end of
[57:09.960 --> 57:14.800] the episode with her hair braided like Tuklo as a Choctaw warrior as well.
[57:14.800 --> 57:18.280] I thought that was quite interesting that you see her with her changed hairstyle.
[57:18.280 --> 57:23.480] It's the one big shame though for me about the season of Echo, the one big drawback.
[57:23.480 --> 57:27.960] Not having Deborah Jacobs on screen more, Bonnie's supposed to be a massively important
[57:27.960 --> 57:32.400] character to Mia, and I felt that she wasn't on screen enough to show the importance.
[57:32.400 --> 57:33.400] Chula certainly was.
[57:33.400 --> 57:38.640] You could absolutely see that connecting moment, but it felt like there was only that one scene
[57:38.640 --> 57:44.000] in the roller rink and then the conversation afterwards with Bonnie saying, I'll take care
[57:44.000 --> 57:45.000] of you, I promise.
[57:45.000 --> 57:46.400] And then she feels like she's been out of the season.
[57:46.400 --> 57:49.560] I just wonder if it was something to do with the filming on the last season of Reservation
[57:49.560 --> 57:53.400] Dogs that meant that Deborah Jacobs couldn't commit to being in the role more.
[57:53.400 --> 57:58.360] But it felt like she just wasn't present in the season enough to make it as important
[57:58.360 --> 57:59.360] at the end.
[57:59.360 --> 58:03.320] But I do wonder because she got the power from Anne, she has her braided hair at the
[58:03.320 --> 58:04.320] end.
[58:04.320 --> 58:07.480] Has she now seen the visions of the ancestors and will the two of them fight side by side
[58:07.480 --> 58:08.480] in the future?
[58:08.480 --> 58:09.480] Possibly.
[58:09.480 --> 58:10.480] Yeah.
[58:10.480 --> 58:16.480] Maybe even if my theory of Kehori coming into live action is incorrect.
[58:16.480 --> 58:20.760] Maybe that's a possibility in the future that two of them will fight side by side from.
[58:20.760 --> 58:21.760] Yeah, absolutely.
[58:21.760 --> 58:27.840] So any note I've got is possibly the spark between Chile and Skully is back there after
[58:27.840 --> 58:31.400] the sewing machine scene in the pawn shop.
[58:31.400 --> 58:37.160] I kind of like that little moment, I think these two characters have been really sort
[58:37.160 --> 58:46.560] of well used and just the gravitas that they bring as well as the elements of the lightheartedness
[58:46.560 --> 58:47.960] certainly from Skully.
[58:48.040 --> 58:55.440] I like that there was a promise by Chile that she would see Skully soon.
[58:55.440 --> 58:57.080] At least come back and visit him occasionally.
[58:57.080 --> 58:58.080] Yeah.
[58:58.080 --> 58:59.080] I like that.
[58:59.080 --> 59:05.160] Oh, just one thing on the discussion that's going on on the TV, just the reference that's
[59:05.160 --> 59:09.960] in there that they make where they say what voters really want right now in New York is
[59:09.960 --> 59:10.960] a bare knuckle boxer.
[59:10.960 --> 59:15.560] I just thought that was interesting because Matt Murdock's father, of course, being a boxer
[59:15.560 --> 59:18.120] and Matt Murdock being a good fighter as well.
[59:18.120 --> 59:19.120] Yeah.
[59:19.120 --> 59:24.600] Maybe it's Fisk vs. Matt Murdock for the role of Mayor of New York.
[59:24.600 --> 59:28.760] See, not just a law procedural type show.
[59:28.760 --> 59:32.080] We're going to have a battle for office in New York.
[59:32.080 --> 59:33.080] Or again.
[59:33.080 --> 59:34.080] Yeah.
[59:34.080 --> 59:35.080] There you go.
[59:35.080 --> 59:36.080] Anyway, the notes, Chris.
[59:36.080 --> 59:37.080] Nope, doesn't hold my set.
[59:37.080 --> 59:38.080] Excellent.
[59:38.080 --> 59:43.880] Well then, in which case, Chris, do you defend episode five of Echo?
[59:43.880 --> 59:44.880] Yes, I do.
[59:44.880 --> 59:51.520] As I said, it was that small brief negative, if you want to call it that, it's just basically,
[59:51.520 --> 59:57.720] I wanted more of a fight scene, I wanted more of a kind of kicky punchy aspect, as well
[59:57.720 --> 59:59.640] as the ending that we got.
[59:59.640 --> 01:00:04.680] I feel it was apt, it was fitting, it just wanted a bit more kind of action to it.
[01:00:04] This was one of the shorter episodes.
[01:00:07] So it just feels like you were tied to a time, which we know they don't, and the Disney Plus.
[01:00:12] So an extra couple of minutes of just Bonnie kicking us, truly kicking us, it would have
[01:00:18] been great to see.
[01:00:20] That's all.
[01:00:21] That's my major negative.
[01:00:23] And then it's just outside of Fisk and the teaser we get.
[01:00:29] We don't know much more about what's going to happen to other character of Echo and these
[01:00:32] characters that we've been introduced to and this nation and culture, which I want more
[01:00:37] of.
[01:00:38] So I, we got the Miss Marvels, we got that furthered on in the Marvels, so I would love
[01:00:47] something similar.
[01:00:48] I would love to see more of Echo in future projects, just to see how it kind of turns
[01:00:56] out.
[01:00:57] But overall, we really enjoyed it and it, yeah, overall, yeah, great.
[01:01:02] Excellent stuff.
[01:01:03] Derek, do you defend this episode?
[01:01:06] Yeah, absolutely defend this episode.
[01:01:08] This is a really interesting and really good end to the show, the way it was presented.
[01:01:12] I wasn't expecting it.
[01:01:13] I think exactly as you said, Chris, you know, we've been, the show had been advertised, I
[01:01:18] suppose, as the show that takes over from Netflix, Daredevil takes over from the Netflix
[01:01:22] shows.
[01:01:23] It is ultra violent.
[01:01:24] They've got the, they've got the fight scenes as good as the Netflix shows.
[01:01:28] So I guess you almost lay up the show that it's going to be a showdown at the end of the
[01:01:32] season between Wilson Fisk's men and Maya, and she's going to be fighting all her way
[01:01:38] through them to get there, but it did exactly what the show has been telling us it was going
[01:01:44] to do.
[01:01:45] She learns from her history, she learns from her ancestors, she learns a way to properly
[01:01:51] embody them as her power to take out Fisk and the choice that they made here that it would
[01:01:59] be with love and with healing.
[01:02:01] It's easier way to really defeat Wilson Fisk rather than what she already did, which
[01:02:05] was put a bullet in his head.
[01:02:07] She's already tried that.
[01:02:08] It didn't work.
[01:02:09] So why would she try it again?
[01:02:10] That's the essence of madness, isn't it?
[01:02:13] So to make that choice and to build it up the way that they did, I think worked really,
[01:02:17] really well.
[01:02:18] I think the performances throughout the series have been great.
[01:02:21] The insight into the Choctan nation has been really fascinating throughout the series and ending
[01:02:25] it in this massive pile-out was really, really good, and I'm very impressed with what
[01:02:31] they delivered in this series.
[01:02:33] I don't see a way forward for Echo as a character, but I am not a writer at Marvel,
[01:02:37] so let's see how they use Maya Lopez in the future.
[01:02:42] She absolutely could just turn up in New York in the future, but I see this as being a way
[01:02:48] of bringing her back to her roots and giving her a good ending, a positive, happy ending
[01:02:55] almost as she gets back and reconnects with her family that she's been missing for so
[01:02:59] many years.
[01:03:01] So I liked that as the close-out to the story of Echo that we've seen over these two seasons,
[01:03:05] I suppose, with Hawkeye and with this show now.
[01:03:08] So happy to see her again, those who are fantastic, I'd love to see more of the character
[01:03:13] in some way in the future.
[01:03:14] But really good.
[01:03:15] So, Jeff John, do you defend the finale of Echo, Episode 5?
[01:03:19] Yeah, I do defend this episode, I'll give it four RPG fireworks out of five, and I do
[01:03:26] think it was short, I have to say, and, you know, dare I say it rushed, I mean, I think
[01:03:33] there is the suggestion that there was a sixth episode there, so I think, you know, some
[01:03:39] of these deep moments, I think, could have been sort of just given space to air and breathe
[01:03:46] a bit more, and possibly that would include more with Bonnie, you know, and so on.
[01:03:54] But nonetheless, I really enjoyed it, I loved the heartbeat element through here, like getting
[01:04:00] the information around to lower, and how that fed into, you know, effectively, the echoes
[01:04:08] are of Meyer's life coming through from our ancestors to Fisk's echoes from his childhood
[01:04:17] trauma, from the beatings at the hands of his father, and him, you know, the abuse towards
[01:04:26] his mother, and him killing his father.
[01:04:28] So I love that kind of parallel that brought through here, and everything that you guys
[01:04:34] have said as well, I think, and, you know, the intriguing element of what's coming up
[01:04:40] with and Daredevil born again, and the possibility of Fisk from there, but I have to hold out
[01:04:50] hope that we have Echo in that show, and so I really hope that they do, I think that
[01:04:57] would be really intriguing, certainly, as we saw Daredevil and Echo meet in episode
[01:05:03] one of the season.
[01:05:04] So I liked how this sort of brought everything together at the end, and yep, so I'd give
[01:05:11] this four RPG fireworks out of five, yeah.
[01:05:14] Very good.
[01:05:15] Hey, John, it's time to go to the pub.
[01:05:18] Well, kind of, last time for the pub quiz or the bar quiz for Echo.
[01:05:27] John, not only beer, but also fellow quizzes and, of course, fellow defenders.
[01:05:33] Yes, welcome to the American bar quiz.
[01:05:36] It is question five of the Echo series, and relates to episode five, if you're newly
[01:05:43] joining us, and question five, who does biscuits tell Zane is looking after general parking?
[01:05:52] Very good.
[01:05:53] Very good.
[01:05:54] Good little gag in there.
[01:05:55] Nice to end on a gag with our final question for the Echo pub quiz.
[01:05:59] So all you need to do is get together all the answers for all the questions, email us to
[01:06:02] feedbackasttvpodcastindustries.com with each of the correct answers, and you'll be able
[01:06:07] to chance of getting your hands on some echo goodies.
[01:06:09] If you've missed any of the questions throughout the season, you can just pop on over to the
[01:06:12] website at tvpodcastindustries.com, and all the questions will be up there to John.
[01:06:16] Do you want to give them the question one more time?
[01:06:20] Question five.
[01:06:21] Who does biscuits tell Zane is looking after general parking?
[01:06:25] Excellent.
[01:06:26] Best of luck will be announcing the winner of the Echo American bar quiz on our wrap up
[01:06:32] episode for Echo.
[01:06:33] The making of Echo is now available on Disney Plus right now.
[01:06:36] Go watch that.
[01:06:37] We'll be talking about that on the final episode as well.
[01:06:39] Excellent stuff.
[01:06:40] Good luck fellow quizzes and defenders in the Echo quiz.
[01:06:45] Exactly.
[01:06:46] Hope you had a bit of fun.
[01:06:47] Yeah, absolutely.
[01:06:48] Very good.
[01:06:49] We'll see what our fellow defenders had to say about the finale.
[01:06:51] Yep.
[01:06:52] Let's do it.
[01:06:53] Yes, first up, and we got an email through from Coffee & Vodka says Greetings fellow
[01:06:56] foul warned for armed defenders.
[01:06:59] If ever the editor had some place to be, it was during the processing of this episode.
[01:07:04] Approximately 27 minutes of story sandwiched between opening and closing credits.
[01:07:09] Despite the general time to service, Echo's story was wrapped up well.
[01:07:13] A modern day, light riders worked well together and the bird brought a tender tear to the
[01:07:18] eye.
[01:07:19] End of the day, not out of the park home run, I thought it would be, but a good tale with
[01:07:24] a few brilliant scenes.
[01:07:27] Two and a half inexplicable monster trucks, maternal Voltrons and Trumpy Kingpins out
[01:07:33] of five.
[01:07:34] For the season, four echoes, echoes, echoes out of five.
[01:07:39] Nice and take care, Coffee & Vodka.
[01:07:41] Very good, Coffee & Vodka.
[01:07:42] Yeah, thanks so much Coffee & Vodka.
[01:07:45] Yep, I think it's certainly short and I think, you know, it could have been really good just
[01:07:53] being at that hour mark, possibly, just again, it would just be building, layering up.
[01:07:59] I think what we saw in this episode was, you know, it could have, well, it could have been
[01:08:06] a longer fight scene, you know, more sort of punches for Chris, it could have been, you
[01:08:13] know, more of the powwow and seeing that ceremony take place, you know, it could have been ten
[01:08:19] minutes of biscuits trying to find the keys for that monster truck.
[01:08:21] Well, exactly.
[01:08:22] Where did I put the whole host of things?
[01:08:24] Yeah, but I mean, just filtering through, you know, as they, we do know there is a lost
[01:08:30] episode of, well, that's how Dr. Oveco, that's how Dr. Who was, of course, the lost episode
[01:08:37] of such and such.
[01:08:38] Oh, we found it.
[01:08:39] It wasn't produced.
[01:08:40] There was originally a commission for six and they made five.
[01:08:42] So it's not, it's not that there's a lost episode.
[01:08:45] They made five episodes.
[01:08:47] I don't know, again, I understand that the complaint of the episode might feel short,
[01:08:52] but I think it had the story that it had to tell and the biggest complaint people used
[01:08:55] to have when we watched the 13 episodes at Daredevil, it was always like, oh, there's
[01:08:58] three episodes too many here.
[01:08:59] Oh, I wish it was eight episodes and then they make eight and they go, oh, I wish it was
[01:09:02] five episodes and then they make five and it's like, oh, I wish it was seven episodes.
[01:09:06] So, you know, if didn't jibe, I totally get it.
[01:09:09] If the story of the series didn't jibe, I absolutely get it.
[01:09:12] But if they made the show that they wanted to make within the five episodes, and I hope
[01:09:16] they did, I think I think connected quite well with the quite well with me, I'm sure there's
[01:09:20] other things that they could have done within the series.
[01:09:22] And I think the one thing that absolutely is missing is Bonnie's character.
[01:09:25] I felt like they may have cut that storyline out of the series.
[01:09:28] They may have that may have formed a majority of the extra episode that they may have gotten
[01:09:33] if they've done six.
[01:09:34] And I do feel it sufferers for not seeing the actress, every Jacobs are not seeing and
[01:09:39] not seeing the character of Bonnie.
[01:09:41] But that's just my opinion, I guess.
[01:09:43] Yeah, no, absolutely.
[01:09:44] And I think it comes through from the season though, as well, you know, it's a really good
[01:09:49] story.
[01:09:50] Absolutely.
[01:09:51] Thanks.
[01:09:52] Coffee Vodka.
[01:09:53] Yeah.
[01:09:54] Thanks.
[01:09:55] Back from Matt Marder.
[01:09:56] Good.
[01:09:57] This to say, I really enjoyed Echo, hot off to Porter for scoring music, making already
[01:10:02] big emotion feel even bigger.
[01:10:04] Surprising an amazing set of climaxes for the finish, and an insightful post credit scene.
[01:10:10] Pelt very Netflix Marvel as it probably should.
[01:10:13] Thanks Matt.
[01:10:14] Yeah, I think we kind of talked about the music, even in the last episode, how we kind of really
[01:10:20] we just we set the tone in a lot of the show and it was well it was well chosen for
[01:10:26] each episode, in particular last episode where he did have Down in the River, which we saw
[01:10:33] how that was delivered.
[01:10:34] So yeah, no overall agree that the music is really well done.
[01:10:38] Yeah, absolutely.
[01:10:39] Some really good choices from the from the music supervisor, some great moments in this
[01:10:43] episode, particularly in the finale, as we as we talked about earlier on.
[01:10:47] Thanks so much, Matt, for your feedback.
[01:10:49] Yeah, thanks Matt.
[01:10:50] Over on threads.
[01:10:51] Yeah, you got some feedback on threads.
[01:10:53] It's moving.
[01:10:54] It's moving.
[01:10:55] It's Johnny Million says, we finished this few days ago.
[01:10:57] What a delightful series.
[01:10:58] I'm all from Marvel shining spotlights on more diverse perspectives.
[01:11:03] Love us.
[01:11:04] That's why it's called Marvel spotlight.
[01:11:06] Exactly.
[01:11:07] That was the time I couldn't think of her saying showcase everything.
[01:11:10] It's spotlight.
[01:11:11] Marvel spotlight.
[01:11:12] Yeah, makes sense.
[01:11:13] Now I totally agree with Johnny.
[01:11:14] So it's a really good show, really enjoyed having something completely different for
[01:11:18] the MCU.
[01:11:19] And this is, you know, this is what we've said before.
[01:11:21] You can't put out the same content every every time you do a movie or a TV show.
[01:11:25] It should at least target a specific audience with an idea and tell a good story for that
[01:11:30] audience.
[01:11:31] So, and I think they did a good job with that.
[01:11:33] Excellent stuff.
[01:11:34] Thanks, Johnny Million.
[01:11:35] Over on Facebook, Dan Lee says, like most of the Marvel stuff for the last few years, this
[01:11:39] felt a bit of a mess to me.
[01:11:40] I missed the days of being excited to see that title card and hear that iconic music.
[01:11:45] It's a shame that it didn't connect to Dan for the series.
[01:11:49] It's interesting, isn't it, that Marvel are no longer using the same music as a intro.
[01:11:53] We're not hearing the Marvel logo music as they as they had for the MCU movies that's
[01:12:00] changing quite often.
[01:12:01] Yeah, that's true.
[01:12:02] Yeah.
[01:12:03] And this is probably one of the first series I think, if I'm right, this is one of the first
[01:12:06] series that's used a piece of music from a recognisable artist, I suppose.
[01:12:10] So the AA is doing the theme tune for this show, rather than it being the composer doing
[01:12:15] a theme for record.
[01:12:16] So this really just stands alone and separate from a lot of the other shows, doesn't it?
[01:12:21] Definitely, definitely.
[01:12:22] But let's see if the Marvel music playing before Madam Webb next month gets it adjusted
[01:12:27] down.
[01:12:28] I suspect not.
[01:12:29] I suspect it works.
[01:12:30] That's so going to be outlined within like, oh, about five weeks less.
[01:12:34] Yeah.
[01:12:35] Yeah.
[01:12:36] We're going to release that.
[01:12:37] Well, let's just disappear, at least we're going to actually get to see us on like what
[01:12:41] HBO has been doing with their DC content.
[01:12:44] Well, that is true.
[01:12:45] That is true.
[01:12:46] Thanks so much, Dan, for the feedback.
[01:12:49] Also on Facebook, we had Jeff Charles, who says, wow, I really enjoyed that.
[01:12:53] Here are my random thoughts about the series.
[01:12:56] Great fight choreography.
[01:12:58] The Cox versus Cox fight really good.
[01:13:00] And it wet my appetite for more daredevil.
[01:13:04] Casting a lack of Cox's cousin to play young Maya was great casting.
[01:13:08] They looked like they could be the same person.
[01:13:10] Absolutely.
[01:13:11] I believe that this is the first role for each of them.
[01:13:14] They did an outstanding job.
[01:13:17] Kingpin may be the best villain in the MCU.
[01:13:20] I have to admit that I got misty during the last episode when Maya encountered her mother,
[01:13:25] then later stood with her ancestors.
[01:13:27] I loved it.
[01:13:28] While I loved the series, five episodes felt rushed.
[01:13:32] Another episode or two would have helped with that.
[01:13:35] Enjoyed seeing Maya's hero journey from villain to hero, it sort of reminds me of Black
[01:13:40] and a widow going from Soviet Asians to Avenger.
[01:13:43] Now that she has her superhero suit, I hope we see more of her in the MCU.
[01:13:49] Yes, Derek.
[01:13:50] So do I.
[01:13:51] I hope she's in.
[01:13:53] Derek is ready to sort of retire her off to Tamaha, whereas I'm totally with you, Jeff,
[01:14:02] that I hope we see her sort of inter-level born again.
[01:14:06] This is faces, this little saunte back to New York City.
[01:14:11] Yeah, all I'm saying is, and all it would take is a ravager appearing outside Tamaha,
[01:14:19] causing some kind of problems for the Choctaw Nation.
[01:14:22] And that brings Echo back into the universe.
[01:14:24] That's all it is.
[01:14:25] It's just the fact they leave it with her being the protector of the nation.
[01:14:28] So there are absolutely ways to do it.
[01:14:29] As I say, Echo to Lost in New York is coming soon.
[01:14:36] So much, of course, Jeff, for your thoughts, though, as well.
[01:14:38] I love the catch there on the fight between Cox vs. Cox, Charlie Cox vs. All Aquacocks.
[01:14:44] So I don't need to think about that.
[01:14:45] Yes, two Coxes head to head.
[01:14:47] Exactly.
[01:14:48] Cox fighting, if you will.
[01:14:49] Yeah, absolutely.
[01:14:50] Thanks, Jeff.
[01:14:52] And yeah, no, I do agree, I see the similarities with the Black Widow versus kind of Echo, the similarities
[01:15:00] that they do have inside of the Soviet versus kind of.
[01:15:05] Yeah, that's a nice.
[01:15:06] It's a nice, nice.
[01:15:07] But overall, like, really glad that you enjoyed it as much.
[01:15:12] And I think a lot of people do feel that they could have done but one more, but some people
[01:15:17] are quite happy with the others.
[01:15:18] So I suppose it's just a fair mix.
[01:15:20] But have enjoyed what they've gotten.
[01:15:22] So it's just, I think it's because people have enjoyed it, it's almost like they want
[01:15:28] more.
[01:15:29] Exactly.
[01:15:30] And so it's the same when the Marvel Netflix shows came to an end.
[01:15:35] It was like all of a sudden after time, it's like, oh, yeah, I want a bit more of that.
[01:15:39] Yeah, absolutely.
[01:15:40] You know, so, yeah, great stuff.
[01:15:42] Thanks, Jeff.
[01:15:43] We also have some feedback in from Felipe Florencio.
[01:15:47] Felipe says, I really enjoyed the series.
[01:15:50] I found the portrayal of Native Americans respectful, even though I'm not from that community.
[01:15:55] Maya and her family in Tamahart were highlights for me.
[01:15:59] However, the series felt rushed, especially because it seems they combine chewlers and
[01:16:04] slow as episodes.
[01:16:05] It would have been nice if they'd had more room to breathe and to be with these characters.
[01:16:10] Maya's relationship with Bonnie also seemed underdeveloped.
[01:16:14] In the end, the inclusion of Kingpin, Daredevil, and the series Darker Tone, along with the
[01:16:19] exciting casting and crew news, made me optimistic for Daredevil born again.
[01:16:24] Good stuff Felipe.
[01:16:25] Yep.
[01:16:26] Yeah, I think they are really valid points around Chula and Touloa's episode.
[01:16:31] And indeed, as you say, about Bonnie, I think that was something we'd sort of picked
[01:16:36] out as well, just, you know, seem like it didn't develop in the same, almost in the
[01:16:41] same way that Henry's, you know, relationship with Maya as her uncle, you know.
[01:16:48] So it would have been nice to have seen that develop in the better, yeah.
[01:16:51] I think because she's so central to the final episode as well, with Bonnie being saved by
[01:16:56] Maya.
[01:16:57] Thus, you would have expected to see more of her during the series.
[01:17:00] So, yeah, it seemed like there was some reason why a major storyline was cut out there.
[01:17:05] You saw from the first episode, onwards and didn't seem to get many scenes throughout
[01:17:09] the season.
[01:17:10] Perhaps that might have been what formed that extra episode if they got on the sixth episode.
[01:17:13] Definitely.
[01:17:14] But yeah, glad to see you enjoy the episode of the series.
[01:17:16] Absolutely.
[01:17:17] Yeah.
[01:17:18] And completely with you, I loved the portrayal of the Native American community, nations,
[01:17:23] the culture and so on.
[01:17:24] I think it really just so interesting and great to see that point into different stories
[01:17:29] like this.
[01:17:30] Absolutely.
[01:17:31] Yeah.
[01:17:32] Thanks, Felipe.
[01:17:33] Absolutely.
[01:17:34] Thanks, Felipe.
[01:17:35] Dr. Bob Phillips says, five out of five binge contact lenses for this episode, just about everything
[01:17:38] this time worked for me.
[01:17:40] The full ASL, rather than science-supported American conversation between Tila and Maya,
[01:17:44] the crinkly love story, the phalanx of history, the beauty of echo's suit, the gift of healing
[01:17:49] from a traumatic childhood monster biscuit, and grandma going full on grut as she battered
[01:17:54] the baddies.
[01:17:55] I do hope we see more of Maya and explore her and Bonnie a bit deeper, tended to watch
[01:17:59] with the audio mute next time, though.
[01:18:01] I suspect it'll be one of those few shows where it could be as good as with sand.
[01:18:05] Yeah, that's a really good point.
[01:18:06] And as I said, that's right, the podcast, we always watch these shows with subtitles.
[01:18:11] And there's definitely some nods and subtitles for just kind of a little bit more detail
[01:18:15] behind what's happening because they do a little bit of description of what's going on or just
[01:18:19] little lines that are said and give a little more clarity.
[01:18:23] Definitely.
[01:18:24] I think part of that would be the importance of the heartbeats in at least a couple of the
[01:18:29] episodes here with echo that it just makes it a bit clearer.
[01:18:35] Just added that bit more than having the subtitles off really, so yeah, very good.
[01:18:42] Yeah, great stuff.
[01:18:43] And speaking of making things clearer, I was actually going to put this into the main
[01:18:46] podcast when I was listening back on our edit.
[01:18:48] I realised we missed a major thing that happened in the episode and we joked about it earlier
[01:18:53] on the podcast.
[01:18:54] We are recording this a little bit later, Chris isn't here, as you can probably tell.
[01:18:57] But we had completely missed the fact that Biscus has transformed Chula's truck into a monster
[01:19:03] truck.
[01:19:04] That's what he'd done with the stuff that he got from the junkyard.
[01:19:06] Absolutely.
[01:19:07] It's just it's only on screen for a split second.
[01:19:09] It's on screen for a split second.
[01:19:11] And it's just, I think to Felipe's point, it's something that there's a bit of a leap
[01:19:17] of faith here that you're borrowing your grandmother's and truck, you damage it and
[01:19:25] you don't repair it back to how it was instead go for a monster truck.
[01:19:30] Because it was like this was her work van.
[01:19:33] Well, yeah.
[01:19:34] Or work pickup or like.
[01:19:36] Yeah, because she's delivering posts from a different car.
[01:19:38] It wasn't a broken down car.
[01:19:40] Yeah.
[01:19:41] So I was kind of like, like it's not that you would drive a monster truck around.
[01:19:46] So it just feels a little bit difficult to sort of immediately just absorb that without
[01:19:51] having seen it sort of explained.
[01:19:54] Yeah.
[01:19:55] I mean, the whole scene where Biscus's friend says, you know, anything the sum touches
[01:20:00] is yours, you kind of go, grand, that means he can repair the car, not create a monster
[01:20:06] truck.
[01:20:07] Yeah.
[01:20:08] That's exactly right.
[01:20:09] It's grand.
[01:20:10] Yeah.
[01:20:11] It's an odd word of that.
[01:20:12] And the fact they didn't dwell on it.
[01:20:13] It's cool.
[01:20:14] Yeah.
[01:20:15] So I thought we missed it as well.
[01:20:16] I was quite surprised that we that we'd missed it.
[01:20:18] That's what he done.
[01:20:19] But it does seem like a weird choice from from Biscus.
[01:20:22] So they kind of cutting out the storyline and having just having him just drive a monster
[01:20:25] truck made us think that he just stolen a monster truck.
[01:20:27] Yeah.
[01:20:28] But that's it.
[01:20:29] I don't even think we'd missed it.
[01:20:30] Just it had not been sign posted particularly well that Biscus has created a monster truck
[01:20:36] out of his grounds pickup truck.
[01:20:38] Exactly.
[01:20:39] Given the powwow where the different things going on, I kind of just assumed part of
[01:20:46] it was a monster truck demonstration or where they crush all the smaller, lesser cars with
[01:20:52] the monster truck.
[01:20:53] Yeah.
[01:20:54] And so he had just kind of said, look, I need to borrow this or something.
[01:20:58] Exactly.
[01:20:59] I just hopped into a monster truck to take one.
[01:21:00] Yeah.
[01:21:01] Exactly.
[01:21:02] But it's only when you look at it, if you pause it for a second, you see the color scheme
[01:21:04] of Chula's truck underneath it, it's still the same, the same dark brand and like brain
[01:21:10] color scheme.
[01:21:11] So we missed that.
[01:21:12] And you'll probably have heard that earlier on the episode and be shouting at your podcast
[01:21:15] going, what the hell are they talking about stealing a monster truck?
[01:21:18] Yeah.
[01:21:19] Good stuff.
[01:21:20] Thanks, Bob.
[01:21:21] Thanks, Bob.
[01:21:22] Yep.
[01:21:23] Thank you.
[01:21:24] And finally, Harvey Locus says, wow, what a fun and interesting show.
[01:21:27] I was so glad she threw away the contact lenses, which she should have done right after
[01:21:32] she'd done talking to Fisk.
[01:21:34] I mean, if there is enough technology in it to do what it did, it would obviously have
[01:21:39] a tracking device in this as well.
[01:21:41] The fact that they made arms and hands to do ASL was silly.
[01:21:45] Why not just have text?
[01:21:47] It's not like she can't read.
[01:21:49] At the end of the last episode, I was still hoping for it to be a baddie at the end of the
[01:21:55] series.
[01:21:56] What they did in the intro of Mum's healing power and the way they closed it with all
[01:22:01] the ancestors standing behind her had me change my mind.
[01:22:05] When she shared her powers with her family members, I couldn't help but cheer.
[01:22:09] The look on Chula's face was priceless, same with Zane's face when he caught the eye of
[01:22:15] Henry.
[01:22:16] The only thing in my opinion that could have made this better is if they didn't need King
[01:22:21] Pin for the Daredevil series.
[01:22:23] I thought Daredevil was the worst of the Netflix Marvel shows with the exception of Karen
[01:22:29] Page, James Wesley, seen as far as tying it into the Netflix shows, I think they did
[01:22:34] a good job with the intro music.
[01:22:36] I don't remember if Turk died, but it would have been fun to see him too.
[01:22:41] All in all, I give the show 4.95 out of 5 modified monster trucks.
[01:22:48] Excellent stuff there, Harvey, thank you for that.
[01:22:53] It would be good to get the old out of 5 from you and glad you enjoyed this series as well.
[01:23:01] Yeah, absolutely.
[01:23:02] That's a good point about the ASL hands, that you could have just done subtitles below someone
[01:23:06] that's talking, couldn't you?
[01:23:07] Yeah, which would have made more sense.
[01:23:09] But he was creating the technology, it's like that old story about we want to be able
[01:23:13] to write in space, so NASA spent millions creating a pen to write in space and then the
[01:23:20] Russians just used to use the pencil and the old story.
[01:23:26] He wanted to show off that he wasn't going to learn ASL, but he could create technology
[01:23:30] that gave him ASL arms.
[01:23:32] It's like we forget the good stuff that we have, or the stuff we already have.
[01:23:36] Just the simple stuff.
[01:23:38] Exactly.
[01:23:39] But yeah, really glad that you enjoyed this, glad that it kind of changed your mind around
[01:23:45] Echo and that she ended off sort of absorbing the good of her ancestors and using that
[01:23:50] for her present relatives to fight off Fisk.
[01:23:55] Yeah, the whole look on Zane's face as he captures Henry, really good.
[01:24:01] Henry has a very good shot in ASL and with the silencer, which I don't know whether it's
[01:24:08] just something random that I know, but I always thought silences kind of make it harder
[01:24:15] to use a gun, but I don't know.
[01:24:18] I'd say it might be completely wrong.
[01:24:20] I know very, very small amount of egg guns.
[01:24:22] Me too.
[01:24:23] I must admit.
[01:24:24] But we are big fans here, as you know, Harvey, of the Daredevil series, I know it's probably
[01:24:29] the biggest of all the series, probably because it was the first as well, Jessica Jones, huge
[01:24:34] fans of that as well, and I'm also quite partial to Luke Cage as well.
[01:24:39] So it's hard for me to pick one of the series that is the best series.
[01:24:44] Some of them have ups and downs and I think the second series of Daredevil is okay and
[01:24:49] the third series is really good for season Jessica Jones is probably my favorite of all
[01:24:53] of them.
[01:24:54] Yeah.
[01:24:55] And as I say, I also love Luke Cage too.
[01:24:56] But we're excited to see them return.
[01:24:58] Absolutely.
[01:24:59] Certainly, yes, that scene between Karen Page and James Wisely is absolutely awesome.
[01:25:05] That was fantastic.
[01:25:08] James Wisely was one of my favorite characters to have him bumped off there and be like,
[01:25:13] no, no, no, it was great wasn't it, really, really good.
[01:25:17] Excellent stuff.
[01:25:18] Thanks to all of you for your feedback and thanks to everybody for feedback throughout
[01:25:21] the season.
[01:25:22] Absolutely.
[01:25:23] Good stuff.
[01:25:24] Thanks everyone.
[01:25:25] Back to the closeout with yourself, Chris and John.
[01:25:28] If you want to email us and tell us any further thoughts you have, you can always email
[01:25:31] us to feedback at tvpodcastindustries.com or alternatively, you can pop on over to our
[01:25:35] Facebook group at Facebook.com slash groups slash TV podcast industries.
[01:25:39] Next, you can also support TV podcast industries by subscribing over TV podcast industries
[01:25:46] for all the new stuff coming down the tracks as Star Wars, the Bad Batch, which begins
[01:25:52] on February 24th.
[01:25:55] There is also coverage of the Epic 10 episode series of Shogun, the adapted TV show from
[01:26:04] James Claville's book of the same name.
[01:26:07] That's the new one, not the 80s one.
[01:26:10] Yes, it's the new one.
[01:26:11] Brand new epic show coming out from FX, which will be on Disney Plus weekly from February
[01:26:17] 28th.
[01:26:18] And of course, the dulcet tones of Chris and Derek will be there for the remaining episodes
[01:26:24] of the season two of Invincible.
[01:26:27] That's right.
[01:26:28] Well, that was in March.
[01:26:30] So please subscribe to the podcast and of course, share the podcast with people that
[01:26:36] you know, because sharing the podcast is, of course, sharing the love.
[01:26:41] Oh, for a stop.
[01:26:42] Thanks so much for joining us.
[01:26:43] We'll be back with you again really soon.
[01:26:45] Yes.
[01:26:46] Thank you so much.
[01:26:47] Couple weeks.
[01:26:48] Bye.
[01:26:49] Yes.
[01:26:50] Thanks so much fellow defenders for echoing with us through this series of echo.
[01:26:55] In the meantime, of course, though, keep watching, keep listening, and of course, keep defending.
[01:27:00] Bye.
[01:27:01] Bye.
[01:27:02] Bye.
Transcription results written to '/home/forge/transcribe3.sonicengage.com/releases/20240205231104' directory
