[00:00:00] This is the Defenders Podcast on TV Podcast Industries. We're on to the penultimate episode of What If, Season 3, Episode 7, What If the Watcher Disappeared?

[00:00:09] Is it a tear in reality?

[00:00:14] No. They're shards from the observational plane.

[00:00:20] But that would mean... Peggy, the Watcher.

[00:00:27] Yes. He's in trouble.

[00:00:49] Welcome back, fellow defenders, to the penultimate episode of What If on TV Podcast Industries.

[00:00:55] We're talking about Season 3, Episode 7, What If the Watcher Disappeared?

[00:00:58] I'm one of your hosts, Derek.

[00:01:00] Yes. Hello there, fellow defenders. Welcome back to the podcast.

[00:01:04] Yes, we're on to Episode 7 and I am your other host, John.

[00:01:09] Can't wait to crack into our spoiler-filled discussion of this one.

[00:01:14] We have a team up.

[00:01:15] Absolutely. And introducing another major character into the MCU.

[00:01:21] Yes, indeed.

[00:01:22] Good stuff.

[00:01:23] I feel like I could recite the opening speech by The Watcher because we've been podcasting so quickly about these episodes.

[00:01:29] I think we've seen that opening speech from him over and over again.

[00:01:33] And this time it's changed.

[00:01:33] This time it's the eminence who does his slightly less friendly version.

[00:01:39] Yeah, exactly.

[00:01:40] A little bit more skeptical is this one.

[00:01:42] Exactly.

[00:01:42] Yeah, I love the way that he narrates the opening here.

[00:01:45] You know, a bit different.

[00:01:47] But I love it as I am the eminence.

[00:01:50] I preserve the sanctity of the multiverse.

[00:01:53] I watch the watchers so they don't ponder the most dangerous question of all.

[00:01:59] What if?

[00:02:00] Exactly.

[00:02:01] Yeah.

[00:02:01] Interesting way of...

[00:02:02] So, Uatu has been pondering the most dangerous question each and every episode.

[00:02:09] Exactly.

[00:02:10] And making us ponder it as well.

[00:02:11] Bad watcher.

[00:02:12] Naughty watcher.

[00:02:13] But, as we are on the penultimate episode, just a reminder, if you want to subscribe to

[00:02:18] the podcast, you can pop on over to our website at tvpodcastindustries.com and you can subscribe

[00:02:23] through any mysterious podcast player in the multiverse that you'd like to, to listen

[00:02:27] to all of our episodes on TV Podcast Industries.

[00:02:30] You can also send your feedback into us on the show to feedback at tvpodcastindustries.com

[00:02:36] or join us over in our Facebook group at facebook.com slash groups slash tvpodcastindustries.

[00:02:41] Yes, because we're on the penultimate.

[00:02:44] Just this one and one more to go for what if and for our coverage in 2024.

[00:02:50] So, please subscribe to the podcast because there will be plenty of things zooming into

[00:02:56] focus very quickly in 2025, including at least from the Marvel side of things, we have Daredevil

[00:03:04] returning.

[00:03:05] As we ponder our 10th year since we started Defenders TV Podcast, which was looking at

[00:03:13] Marvel Netflix's Daredevil as well as the other Marvel Netflix shows that came with that

[00:03:20] and ultimately leading to the Defenders. In our 10th year, we have a new Daredevil TV show to cover.

[00:03:28] So, yes, again, another little bit of symmetry for TV podcast industry.

[00:03:33] Exactly. Yeah.

[00:03:34] Very much looking forward to that.

[00:03:35] And one other thing, at the beginning of 2025, we will be doing our year-end wrap-up for 2024

[00:03:40] and looking ahead to what is coming in 2025.

[00:03:43] So, if you do have any thoughts on any of the shows that we've covered and you want to talk about them with us

[00:03:47] and share your overall feelings about some of the shows we covered, you can email us there

[00:03:51] and we'll talk about them on that big wrap-up podcast that we do each year.

[00:03:54] Yes. Excellent stuff.

[00:03:56] Derek, let us get on with our spoiler-filled chit-chat.

[00:04:00] Mm-hmm.

[00:04:01] What are some of the episode details?

[00:04:03] You know, interestingly for the show this season, there's a lot less individual writers credited

[00:04:08] and a lot less individual directors credited.

[00:04:10] The credits for the episode have been the same for the last couple of episodes.

[00:04:13] I think, actually, the only one I can think that stands out is AC Bradley,

[00:04:16] the showrunner for the previous show, writing one of the episodes that was taken from last season

[00:04:20] and put into this one.

[00:04:21] So, here are the executive producers once again, Matthew Chauncey,

[00:04:24] Brian Andrews, Brad Weiderbaum, with Kevin Feige, the head writer of the show,

[00:04:28] of course, Matthew Chauncey.

[00:04:29] The story of this episode was written by Brian Andrews, Matthew Chauncey and Ryan Little,

[00:04:33] and the teleplay by Matthew Chauncey and Ryan Little.

[00:04:35] This episode, again, directed by Stefan Frank and Brian Andrews.

[00:04:40] So, yeah, it's really kind of gotten into either a groove or it's just really spreading the load here.

[00:04:49] Do you know, I wonder if this is actually to do with the writer's strike and director's strike that we had.

[00:04:55] Yeah, maybe.

[00:04:56] Yeah, where they were looking for making sure that everybody got the right credits for their show

[00:05:00] and as the show is written by a writer's room, potentially it's about giving them all the appropriate credit for each of the episodes.

[00:05:05] So, they've just given them the writing credit.

[00:05:07] Perhaps that's the reason for it.

[00:05:10] But it just feels interesting because last season, every episode seemed to have a different writer.

[00:05:14] Yeah.

[00:05:14] Well, and it makes this part of the podcast a little uneventful.

[00:05:19] It does, doesn't it?

[00:05:19] You kind of go ditto from the previous one.

[00:05:22] Exactly.

[00:05:23] You just say that.

[00:05:23] But, John, there is a lot of difference that happens in the episode itself.

[00:05:27] There is.

[00:05:28] Do you want to tell us what they gave us with the synopsis for What If?

[00:05:32] 307, What If The Watcher Disappeared?

[00:05:34] Sure.

[00:05:35] In the fifth dimension, the Watcher stands trial before the other three Watchers consisting of the Eminence, the Incarnate and the Executioner.

[00:05:44] While Captain Peggy Carter leads a team consisting of Kohori, a grown up birdie and Storm, the Goddess of Thunder, on stopping the multiversal incursions.

[00:05:54] After preventing an interdimensional universe eater from attacking Earth-625, Carter and her team notice three shards of the Watcher's observational plane have fallen to Earth-625 and resolve to go and help him.

[00:06:08] After their first attempts to synthesize the shards fail and cost them two shards, the group consider requesting help from a variant of Infinity Ultron, while also agreeing to use Time Variance Authority equipment to prune him should he go rogue.

[00:06:24] After a heart-to-heart with Storm, Carter resolves to meet with Infinity Ultron alone, only to be captured by the Eminence.

[00:06:32] Noticing Carter went missing, Kohori, Birdie and Storm confront Ultron, who reveals that he has realized there is no peace without life and concludes that he made a mistake in extinguishing all life in his universe.

[00:06:47] Though it is too late for redemption, he is willing to atone for his actions and absorbs the shard before agreeing to take them to rescue Carter and the Watcher.

[00:06:57] To be continued in the final episode as well.

[00:07:00] A big episode here introducing this brand new team-up of characters, some we've never seen in the MCU before, which we'll talk about in a second.

[00:07:08] But others that we obviously have seen back in Season 1 and Season 2, for the most part, Captain Carter being the central character in Season 1,

[00:07:17] Kehori being the first newly introduced character to the MCU from What If itself, and now they're teaming up in this episode.

[00:07:25] But do you want to quickly talk about the introduction of Storm, John?

[00:07:29] Absolutely, yeah.

[00:07:30] I mean, it's huge to get one of the X-Men into the MCU proper.

[00:07:39] Yeah, exactly.

[00:07:40] Exactly.

[00:07:40] It's huge.

[00:07:41] And in this case, Storm isn't just the character from the X-Men.

[00:07:46] She is the goddess of thunder.

[00:07:48] So she has the power of Thor as carrying Mjolnir and is calling upon all of the elements similar to what she does in the X-Men comics,

[00:07:56] but has the extra power of being the thunder god.

[00:07:59] Yeah, no, absolutely.

[00:08:00] It's great to see Storm here chucking her lightning bolts around the universe.

[00:08:07] Absolutely.

[00:08:07] Absolutely.

[00:08:08] I kind of love the introduction because we start out on Xandar with the characters there fighting off the intrusion of this galactic world eater.

[00:08:17] And they call out, I think Korg is the one that calls it out saying, hang on a second, have you got Thor in your team?

[00:08:22] And then it's Storm arriving, surrounded by thunder and lightning.

[00:08:26] It's cool.

[00:08:27] Yeah, very good.

[00:08:28] Very good.

[00:08:28] And did you notice as well that the X-Men theme played as Storm enters into the battle of the tentacle creature as well?

[00:08:38] Yeah, there was a little touch of the X-Men theme.

[00:08:40] I think we've heard that before in the MCU with Patrick Stewart coming in as Professor X.

[00:08:47] And I think they even used it in Ms. Marvel as well when they heard that she was a mutant.

[00:08:51] They used a little touch of the X-Men theme.

[00:08:53] So kind of cool they had it here for Storm as she arrived.

[00:08:57] And also voiced by Alison Seeley-Smith, who voices her on X-Men 97 as well.

[00:09:02] So yeah, if you ever watched an X-Men cartoon, you know that voice really well.

[00:09:07] Yeah, that was cool.

[00:09:08] Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

[00:09:09] But we do have a structure for What If?

[00:09:11] which is completely broken when we get into these final two episodes, I think I would say anyway.

[00:09:16] Kind of.

[00:09:16] But it's kind of interesting to try and preserve the structure.

[00:09:20] Yeah.

[00:09:20] So our first point is what if we had seen this before?

[00:09:24] Name that cinematic universe moment or movie.

[00:09:28] Yeah.

[00:09:28] Now, in some ways, the opening, which is on Earth 625,

[00:09:33] we saw in What If?

[00:09:36] Season 2, Episode 1, where we have Nebula is Nova Prime on Xandar after a detective noir by Howard the Duck,

[00:09:47] which was a great, loved that opening.

[00:09:50] And here she is again now as the Nova Prime with this huge tentacled beast, which we also saw in Season 1.

[00:10:01] We see Peggy Carter fighting it off in the castle in Season 1, I think.

[00:10:07] Yeah.

[00:10:08] And this tentacled being has cropped up all the time.

[00:10:12] And you get that from Peggy where she says, you know,

[00:10:16] it's taken a long time to sort of effectively track you down and finish you off.

[00:10:21] It's personal for her.

[00:10:22] Yeah.

[00:10:23] She even calls it the Hydra Champion, which is the thing that effectively separated her from Steve Rogers.

[00:10:28] Yeah, I do like that Nebula goes, what did you call me?

[00:10:31] Yeah.

[00:10:32] That was a really nice little moment because I was like thinking, oh, I didn't remember that.

[00:10:36] I didn't think, you know, how does she know this?

[00:10:38] But yeah, I thought this was really good.

[00:10:40] I just love the fact that it was death through eyeball.

[00:10:44] I thought, yeah, grand.

[00:10:46] The bigger they are, the harder they fall.

[00:10:48] Exactly.

[00:10:48] It's kind of a bit like David and Goliath.

[00:10:51] Yeah.

[00:10:51] Yeah.

[00:10:52] Really enjoyed that moment of Peggy Carter zipping through both the eye sockets of this Hydra Champion.

[00:11:01] Yes.

[00:11:01] The interdimensional beast.

[00:11:04] Any other cinematic universe movie or anything else that you think of?

[00:11:09] So what I kind of thought here is, you know, to me it's a bit like Endgame, Avengers Endgame,

[00:11:17] and a bit like Ant-Man Quantumania.

[00:11:20] Okay.

[00:11:21] Yeah.

[00:11:21] So for example, with Endgame, those remaining Avengers have to try and find a way to travel back through time,

[00:11:29] or through time I should say, in order to try and stop Thanos.

[00:11:34] And so, you know, whilst it's not traveling through space to the fifth dimension in order to get to the watcher,

[00:11:45] it's that same idea of having to travel through the dimensions in order to bring about a resolution.

[00:11:52] Yeah, I get that.

[00:11:53] And the same with Quantumania in the sense that this is traveling through space, but this is at the micro or nano level of existence rather than this cosmic scale.

[00:12:09] Right.

[00:12:09] Gotcha.

[00:12:09] Gotcha.

[00:12:09] Gotcha.

[00:12:10] So they were the two kind of, you know, so trying to find a way back to, I guess, normal size, normal Earth, whatever,

[00:12:19] from the quantum realm.

[00:12:50] Mm-hmm.

[00:12:51] Yeah.

[00:12:52] So they were the two kind of attempts at doing it.

[00:12:53] Yeah.

[00:12:54] And I was going to say that, like, to take it to that next level, I suppose the thing that they may have been taking from Avengers Endgame is that there was three attempts with the Pym Particles to be able to do a test to allow them to jump back in time.

[00:13:05] They use one of them to test it.

[00:13:07] It doesn't work very well.

[00:13:08] They lose another one.

[00:13:09] He smashes one.

[00:13:10] Ant-Man just drops one.

[00:13:12] Drops one.

[00:13:13] So it's similar to this.

[00:13:15] Here we actually have the attempts almost succeeding, where we have Birdie, another character, actually a new character, I suppose, introduced in the Christmas episode.

[00:13:25] And now grown up, this is Howard the Duck and Darcy's child, Birdie the Duck.

[00:13:31] She seems to be very competent and very technical.

[00:13:34] Yeah.

[00:13:35] Has a great technical ability here in trying to use one of the shards to enhance their ship, their dimension jumping ship, to try and get them into the fifth dimension.

[00:13:44] Gets very close as well.

[00:13:46] Does.

[00:13:46] And actually, even that ship very much looks like the pod from Quantumania.

[00:13:54] Yeah, I see that.

[00:13:55] Kang gets to the Quantum Realm or finds his way to the Quantum Realm.

[00:14:03] So that pod, again, looks very, very similar to that.

[00:14:06] In this case, it's trying to get through to another level of the dimensional space.

[00:14:12] Yeah.

[00:14:12] And so I thought that was really good.

[00:14:14] I like the fact that we have this tech attempt using one of the shards.

[00:14:19] I love the fact that it has a crash test dummy in it, which ultimately fails.

[00:14:25] I love that the head bounces off the front of their vehicle as well.

[00:14:29] But then we have Storm saying, let's try a divine intervention.

[00:14:34] But this divine powered fails as well, where she tries to summon a ritual, which ultimately is not strong enough in order to form a gateway to this fifth dimension.

[00:14:48] Yes.

[00:14:48] She says she can see it, but can't pass over.

[00:14:50] Exactly.

[00:14:51] And again, then another shard down effectively.

[00:14:54] Yeah.

[00:14:54] I take it that that's almost like another version of the Bifrost that she was trying to create, but one that travels to another dimension in space rather than one that travels between the realms like Thor used in all the Thor movies.

[00:15:05] Yeah, I guess it's something along those lines.

[00:15:08] I mean, the Bifrost transports between different realms, not different dimensions.

[00:15:14] Yeah, exactly.

[00:15:15] But it sounds like she's trying to create something like that.

[00:15:17] It's just the way that she says, I could see the path ahead of me, but I couldn't cross it.

[00:15:21] It sounds like it was something like a Bifrost was there, but it didn't work.

[00:15:25] I guess so.

[00:15:25] Yeah.

[00:15:26] I guess so.

[00:15:26] Something like that.

[00:15:27] Given that she had the power to the Thor, I think that's interesting that she would try something like that.

[00:15:31] But all of those fail.

[00:15:33] And they have to go and talk to Ultra, Infinity Ultra.

[00:15:38] Yeah.

[00:15:39] Well, another one, not the same one from the previous episode and season.

[00:15:46] But yes, they call in help from the Infinity Ultron because he is the one, through his use of the Infinity Stones, but also the fact that there's a synthezoid.

[00:16:00] He's able to open the door to the fifth dimension.

[00:16:04] He heard the Watcher when he was alone.

[00:16:09] Yes.

[00:16:09] And knew there was another part of the universal plane or the multiverse that he hadn't effectively destroyed in order to bring peace.

[00:16:23] Yeah.

[00:16:23] So it's all quite risky, as they say.

[00:16:25] You know, they fought him with very powerful individuals and only just beat him, managed to contain him.

[00:16:33] He was a hugely powerful individual.

[00:16:36] But he is the other person, other than Doctor Strange, who has really sort of understood that other dimension.

[00:16:46] Yeah.

[00:16:46] Yeah.

[00:16:47] And he's the only other being that has found his way to the observation plane in the past as well.

[00:16:51] That's why they want to use him.

[00:16:53] I think that's it, though, for the Marvel Cinematic Universes that we've seen before.

[00:16:58] On our next point, what if there's a small change?

[00:17:00] I want to propose one here.

[00:17:03] I think the small change that happens that changes this into the premise of the episode, effectively, is those three pieces, those three shards of the observational plane that are knocked into this universe, Universe 625.

[00:17:14] If they hadn't been knocked in there, then Peggy and her team would have completed their mission, killed this monster, and then moved on to whatever their next mission was going to be.

[00:17:23] But by them being knocked into the universe, that's actually changed the course of where everything was going to go.

[00:17:29] Yeah.

[00:17:29] And actually that it falls to Nova Prime because they see that there is this somehow is a tear in the observational plane and that potentially the Watcher is in trouble here.

[00:17:41] Now, they're very definite about it.

[00:17:43] I'm not entirely sure I understand why, but I think seeing those shards is massive, really, because they really shouldn't be there.

[00:17:53] And as you say, if not, they would be back on their ship.

[00:17:56] I like the fact that they have a ship that can jump through the multiverse, even if it has got one of those strange kind of gauges as to whether it will be successful or not.

[00:18:05] That's very funny.

[00:18:06] And it does remind me a little bit like Arcane and Jinx's kind of inventions that she does.

[00:18:14] I think she created an arm for one of the people from the Undercity that kind of, again, it was strange stuff.

[00:18:24] It's almost like a fruit machine or a one-armed bandit that gave her the different powers or uses for the mechanical arm.

[00:18:34] Yeah.

[00:18:35] Yeah.

[00:18:35] And in this case, it's Burley that's built it and she's put some crazy little description of how powerful the jump is going to be.

[00:18:42] And what it needs to get to.

[00:18:43] I like that.

[00:18:43] And so that was quite good.

[00:18:45] Yeah.

[00:18:46] But yeah, I think you're right.

[00:18:48] That's the small change here, really, that takes place.

[00:18:52] Yeah.

[00:18:52] And I think that can move us into our third point.

[00:18:54] What if the universe was changed forever?

[00:18:56] And what we find here is not so much that 625, but the universe that, say, Infinity Ultron is in, that he realizes that a world without people is not peaceful.

[00:19:13] Mm-hmm.

[00:19:13] And it's just simply empty.

[00:19:16] Yes.

[00:19:16] That the idea of peace requires people.

[00:19:19] Exactly.

[00:19:19] And with people, there can invariably, there can be conflict or is conflict as well as peace happening at the same time.

[00:19:28] So, and whilst he, because he's basically been, he's done his job, but he's been sat on a rock for eons.

[00:19:35] Mm-hmm.

[00:19:35] And I think as Peggy's team discussed, you know, most Infinity Ultrons, you know, these slight variations of Infinity Ultron that have happened in the multiverse.

[00:19:46] Yeah.

[00:19:47] Most of them don't hear the Watcher.

[00:19:49] So aren't aware of that power.

[00:19:51] And that's why they go for an Infinity Ultron that hasn't heard the Watcher, but equally has finished his task so that he's the only one in that universe.

[00:20:02] Yes.

[00:20:02] That they can use the TVA tech on.

[00:20:05] Yeah.

[00:20:05] But he ultimately has come to the realization that ultimately he was wrong.

[00:20:12] And that, you know, he needs to, in some ways, atone for this.

[00:20:17] And that is to help the team of Kaori, Storm, and Birdie who are coming after Peggy who's realized that she's tried to go it alone.

[00:20:27] Mm-hmm.

[00:20:27] Now, we see him and Peggy meeting for the first time because he wonders, well, who are you and where are you from?

[00:20:35] Yeah.

[00:20:35] But it's then the eminence that plucks her from that universe to the observational plane in order to effectively be tried for her crime.

[00:20:48] Exactly.

[00:20:49] But Ultron is willing to atone for all the destruction, even though he can never make up for it by then helping the other three to get their ship to the observational plane, to the fifth dimension.

[00:21:08] Yeah.

[00:21:08] But I do like the fact that the automatic assumption when he says, you know, she's gone, it's like you've killed her and they attack him.

[00:21:17] Yeah.

[00:21:18] And, you know, they've seen the broken shield fragments and so on.

[00:21:21] That is a classic comic book trope.

[00:21:23] Just before you team up with someone, you have to have that comic book fight, right?

[00:21:27] So you have to assume that something happened, something went down.

[00:21:31] Don't listen to them talking and explaining themselves.

[00:21:33] Put them in the face first, then listen to them afterwards.

[00:21:35] That's what it felt like.

[00:21:37] But, yeah, I think that's the big change there that's happening.

[00:21:41] And, again, the other change that will change this universe forever is mortals traveling to the observational plane.

[00:21:47] And that's something that hasn't happened in any other universe.

[00:21:49] So this place will be quite different.

[00:21:51] Exactly.

[00:21:52] And two ways.

[00:21:53] I mean, being plucked by the eminence.

[00:21:57] I think you hear one of the other three say, well, it's obviously not much of a watcher type of thing because he has deliberately interfered here to pull Peggy into the fifth dimension.

[00:22:13] But equally, then, Ultron has crushed the final shard in order to absorb that power through the infinity stones and is able to then take their ship through into the fifth dimension as well.

[00:22:33] So, yeah, mortals in two different ways have traveled to this observational plane.

[00:22:39] Yeah, yeah.

[00:22:40] And I kind of like that moment of when Ultron breaks the shard and takes the power into himself because, effectively, this infinity Ultron is the most powerful being in all of the multiverses.

[00:22:54] It's each of those infinity Ultrons because it's someone with this massive vendetta against all living beings who has the power of all of the stones, the infinity stones, now adding an extra piece of power on top of them, you know?

[00:23:08] So there is probably that moment for the other three there going, oh, hang on a second.

[00:23:11] I hope he's as good as his word here that he is going to help us out.

[00:23:14] He's not going to just use this as another way of killing even more beings in the multiverse, you know?

[00:23:19] And so I kind of like that moment because, again, that's kind of what happened before with Ultron.

[00:23:26] And people thought he was on their side and he turned against them.

[00:23:29] That's always been the story of Ultron, I guess.

[00:23:32] So this time not the case, though.

[00:23:34] No, no, absolutely not.

[00:23:36] Anything else about the episode we should talk about, Jon?

[00:23:39] Well, for me, I like the little moment where Peggy can't sleep on the eve of this battle.

[00:23:44] And you have that conversation with Storm and, you know, Peggy is questioning, risking her friends to save another friend in Uatu because she's lost so much anyway.

[00:24:00] So she's afraid of losing her friends again.

[00:24:03] You know, she doesn't want to risk that.

[00:24:05] Yeah.

[00:24:05] That's interesting.

[00:24:06] That's kind of calling back to the end tag that we were joking about earlier on in the season that friends are the most important thing.

[00:24:11] And it's just, it's those jitters, for whatever reason it may be, nerves or sort of, you know, predicting loss.

[00:24:22] Whether it's of your own life, of your friend's life, if you are a hero, you know, and a season battle individual like Peggy.

[00:24:30] I kind of thought that was quite a nice little call out here.

[00:24:34] Absolutely.

[00:24:34] You know?

[00:24:35] Yep.

[00:24:35] Yep.

[00:24:36] Really like that.

[00:24:36] Definitely great to see Cahody back here as well.

[00:24:38] Well, this is a character I definitely want to see more of in the future.

[00:24:42] And I presume we're going to see her again in the next episode.

[00:24:44] But created in What If? Season 2 has her own comic book now or has at least had one issue of a comic book.

[00:24:50] Introducing her into the Marvel Comics universe, which is cool.

[00:24:53] Definitely want to call out here, Birdie having the voice of Natasha Lyonne is really cool.

[00:24:58] So good.

[00:24:58] I love Natasha Lyonne.

[00:25:00] Yeah, she's great.

[00:25:00] She's just been around for so many years as an actress and so many interesting and weird projects.

[00:25:05] Thanks to have her in here voicing the child of Howard the Duck and Darcy.

[00:25:10] Oh, fantastic.

[00:25:11] That was great.

[00:25:12] Yeah, really good.

[00:25:12] It really, really works well.

[00:25:15] It pays off the need for that episode, John, I think.

[00:25:17] Oh, absolutely.

[00:25:18] Absolutely.

[00:25:20] No, I'm more interested in Birdie.

[00:25:23] I like this.

[00:25:23] It was really good.

[00:25:24] Like, I would actually love to see how she got to be in this team.

[00:25:29] Like, that would be another story I'd love to see is how do these four come together?

[00:25:33] Yeah, that wouldn't be cool.

[00:25:35] Like, we've seen Peggy and Cahori and how they have become acquaintances.

[00:25:41] You know, how have the other two managed to get part of Team Peggy to be sort of multiversal soldiers?

[00:25:48] Yeah.

[00:25:49] You know?

[00:25:50] Yeah, the other thing as well, interestingly, is just the Eminence does call out Peggy meddling in the multiverse

[00:25:57] specifically to the Watcher as he is kind of bound and facing judgment.

[00:26:02] Yeah.

[00:26:03] And I like the fact that the Watcher kind of says, but you can't intervene.

[00:26:08] But here, the Eminence says, no, but we can protect the order of the Watchers.

[00:26:14] Mm-hmm.

[00:26:15] So we will do whatever we need to do in order to protect the order.

[00:26:22] Yeah.

[00:26:22] Which explains the plucking of Peggy from Ultron's, or this other Ultron's universe.

[00:26:30] Yeah.

[00:26:31] Yeah.

[00:26:31] It was really interesting.

[00:26:32] It looked like the Watcher just kind of thought, oh, have you here?

[00:26:34] Yeah, no, exactly.

[00:26:35] I've intervened, but you can't punish me because you can't intervene.

[00:26:37] I thought that was quite good.

[00:26:38] And then they do intervene at the end.

[00:26:41] One of the things we probably didn't mention, just we kind of culled it out a few times,

[00:26:44] the TVA equipment to prune Infinity Ultron if he goes rogue.

[00:26:51] You know, that was partially from Loki season one and season two, which heavily featured the TVA.

[00:26:57] But I think also it's a little nod to Deadpool and Wolverine, where it was very specifically

[00:27:02] the TVA or Mr. Paradox in the TVA was bringing Deadpool on board and saying, well, if he goes

[00:27:09] and does anything that I don't agree with, I'll prune his timeline and his entire universe.

[00:27:14] So that TVA equipment has some other connections in the cinematic universe now.

[00:27:20] Exactly.

[00:27:21] Exactly.

[00:27:22] Yeah.

[00:27:22] But overall, John, do you defend season three, episode seven?

[00:27:26] What if the Watcher disappeared?

[00:27:27] Yes, I do defend this episode.

[00:27:30] I would give this four roads untraveled out of five.

[00:27:35] I really enjoyed this team up.

[00:27:36] I love the opener, actually, with the Hydra champion and that little callback to that great

[00:27:42] episode from season two, the first episode.

[00:27:45] And I like them putting together their kind of way to get to help the Watcher with his

[00:27:53] current predicament.

[00:27:54] And I think what makes it really interesting is that, you know, you're given this fully

[00:27:58] reformed team, but immediately you have Peggy taking it on herself to be the one that protects

[00:28:06] her or the teammates.

[00:28:07] You know, she sees herself as the leader, but also it's more because of what and how much

[00:28:15] she has lost since beginning this multiversal journey from the first season.

[00:28:20] And I just thought that was really good.

[00:28:23] I like the nod to, you know, again, sometimes it's these little things that you lose along

[00:28:29] the way a bit with a what if type story because you just go, oh, what if?

[00:28:34] But it's also just that nuance, like, well, there's many Infinity Ultrons.

[00:28:40] And I like that little callback to, well, we go to one of the other Infinity Ultrons that

[00:28:45] has formed and has been successful.

[00:28:49] But whatever slight variation.

[00:28:51] Exactly.

[00:28:52] Yeah.

[00:28:52] But just didn't hear the Watcher.

[00:28:54] Exactly.

[00:28:55] Really like that too.

[00:28:56] And actually also, yeah, just the eminence narrating this opening.

[00:29:00] Really good.

[00:29:00] It was a nice little touch for me.

[00:29:03] So yeah, I'd give this four roads untraveled out of five.

[00:29:07] Derek, what about yourself?

[00:29:09] Do you defend this episode?

[00:29:11] Yeah, I defend this episode.

[00:29:12] It was really interesting to kind of have this penultimate episode focused on these four

[00:29:16] characters coming together as their new team that we hadn't been introduced to for the season.

[00:29:22] I kind of suspected that we'd have something similar like we had in the previous seasons

[00:29:26] where characters from the earlier episodes would be cropping up and maybe in this team with

[00:29:31] Captain Carter.

[00:29:32] You know, there was a cliffhanger in the Kingo and Agatha episode that hasn't been resolved.

[00:29:39] I expected maybe one of them to be picked up by Captain Carter to form the team.

[00:29:43] So having these four here, Birdie, Cahori, and the introduction of Storm all being together

[00:29:50] as a team, while they are a great team, it was a real surprise.

[00:29:53] You know, Cahori coming back from season two of What If, Birdie only being introduced as

[00:29:59] an egg a couple of episodes ago and Storm never being in the MCU before.

[00:30:02] It was a real surprise.

[00:30:04] It felt out on its own as a brand new kickoff point for What If.

[00:30:09] So that was surprising, but really enjoyable.

[00:30:11] And one of the things I saw so well put together from this tale of Captain Carter from the beginning

[00:30:17] of the series to now is her superpower is being a leader.

[00:30:20] Yes, she's strong.

[00:30:21] Yes, she's great at fighting, but she is a leader of the team.

[00:30:25] You've got a goddess on the team with her.

[00:30:27] You've got Cahori who can create portals and travel through them.

[00:30:31] And you've got Birdie now who can fly and has her own powers as well.

[00:30:35] And then you have Peggy Carter who is always standing in the front.

[00:30:38] She's always the leader.

[00:30:40] She's always telling them all how to work together.

[00:30:42] So that is her big power and that's what's been so fundamental about her from the beginning

[00:30:47] of the series to now that she is the leader.

[00:30:49] I love how that story has arced all the way across the last three seasons.

[00:30:53] So really excited to see how this all closes out in the final episode.

[00:30:57] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:30:58] Absolutely.

[00:30:59] Shall we get on to our multiversal messages?

[00:31:02] Absolutely.

[00:31:03] First up, Coffee and Vodka says,

[00:31:04] Greetings fellow Watcher liberating defenders.

[00:31:07] I suppose if I could have any element of the past episode show up here,

[00:31:11] Birdie and the Ducks would have taken second place to Agatha and Kingo.

[00:31:16] But I suppose they've got their own cliffhanger to deal with.

[00:31:18] And to have her voice by Natasha Lyonne, wow, whoever's on casting deserves a raise.

[00:31:23] A great setup for part two and season series end of To Rescue a Watcher.

[00:31:28] Infinity Ultron's lament was a welcome surprise, as is his becoming an ally.

[00:31:33] More to say once there's more that's been seen.

[00:31:35] 4.5 money shots, mallards to donuts and eminence fronts out of five.

[00:31:40] Peace and take care.

[00:31:41] Coffee and vodka.

[00:31:42] Great stuff, coffee and vodka.

[00:31:44] Thanks for that.

[00:31:45] Absolutely agree around Natasha Lyonne being the voice of Birdie.

[00:31:51] Yeah.

[00:31:51] And yeah, I think the Infinity Ultron's lament and sort of after eons.

[00:31:58] I mean, that's the thing.

[00:31:59] You don't hear eon being mentioned as a unit of time very often.

[00:32:03] And you just realize how massive that is.

[00:32:08] He must have been bored off his tree if he had left any trees around in the universe.

[00:32:14] I think it was just that dead rock that he was standing on.

[00:32:16] Exactly.

[00:32:17] But maybe I've done something wrong as he stands there for eons after eons.

[00:32:21] And I mean, it is surprising that he becomes an ally.

[00:32:24] Not just simply because Ultron is a nasty piece of work usually in Marvel.

[00:32:30] But probably even with the circuitry, I know he is sentient.

[00:32:37] So he must have just gone completely bonkers.

[00:32:42] Yeah, but that's always been the thing of Ultron.

[00:32:44] He gets given his set parameters of what he's supposed to do.

[00:32:48] And then he takes it to his own logical conclusion and then becomes the bad guy.

[00:32:52] You know, the world would be safer without humans on it.

[00:32:56] Well, then I'll just exterminate the humans and the world is safe.

[00:32:59] You know, that's kind of the way he's always justified things to himself.

[00:33:04] So in his own mind, he's not a villain, which is always the best villains.

[00:33:07] Right.

[00:33:08] And yeah, totally with you on Natasha Lyonne on here, as you say.

[00:33:11] Really great to see her and really interesting that she's going to be in the MCU and live action coming up in Fantastic Four First Steps, which is coming out this summer.

[00:33:21] So I just don't expect Natasha Lyonne to be putting on the outfit that we see her as Birdie in here.

[00:33:26] So I suspect she'll be playing a different character.

[00:33:29] Hasn't been announced yet who she's playing.

[00:33:30] She knows.

[00:33:31] She knows she's in the movie.

[00:33:31] So you never know.

[00:33:33] Maybe she'll be in the spandex and have the wings.

[00:33:35] It could be a different.

[00:33:37] Like, you know, like there's been the time jump here.

[00:33:41] Yeah.

[00:33:42] From Egg to kind of, you know, young adult.

[00:33:45] Mm-hmm.

[00:33:46] So it might be sort of more in the vein of like the wasp or, you know, some other kind of era.

[00:33:54] Yeah.

[00:33:55] Could be.

[00:33:55] Maybe she's taken off the wings.

[00:33:57] Yeah.

[00:33:57] No longer flying around.

[00:33:58] Yeah.

[00:33:59] Who knows?

[00:34:00] Thanks so much, Coffee and Vodka.

[00:34:02] Absolutely.

[00:34:02] Thanks, Coffee and Vodka.

[00:34:03] Over on Facebook, Heather Wallace says,

[00:34:06] Hey, Eminence.

[00:34:07] No one calls my girl Peggy a menace.

[00:34:09] I can't wait to see how this ends.

[00:34:12] Excellent stuff, Heather.

[00:34:13] Thanks, Heather.

[00:34:13] Also on Facebook, Dr. Bob Phillips says,

[00:34:17] Ooh, it's that not Avengers we didn't know we needed, but now we know we do.

[00:34:23] Peggy doing the best to British.

[00:34:25] Kohori scattering portals like cantrips.

[00:34:28] Not Thor being much better than Party Thor.

[00:34:31] And Birdie getting most of her good points from her mom.

[00:34:34] But it is good to see Howard is wearing specks.

[00:34:38] At our age, there are two sorts of people.

[00:34:40] Those who have specks and those in denial.

[00:34:43] And we didn't get a friends we made along the way exit line.

[00:34:47] Hooray for the penultimate ever what if.

[00:34:51] Dr. Bob.

[00:34:52] Thanks so much, Dr. Bob.

[00:34:53] Absolutely.

[00:34:54] Absolutely agree with those points.

[00:34:56] Great to see these four coming together.

[00:35:00] It was a surprise.

[00:35:03] Though, like you say, that we didn't see more of some of the other people just from this season.

[00:35:11] Yeah.

[00:35:11] Like I know we got the big sort of all those powered individuals in Strangers Forge.

[00:35:20] Yes.

[00:35:21] Back at the end of season two.

[00:35:22] But here, like they've not brought Kingo or Agatha or Shang-Chi and Hawkeye.

[00:35:30] Or the Mech Avengers.

[00:35:35] So, yeah.

[00:35:36] Yeah.

[00:35:37] It's an interesting choice to jump in with these three characters.

[00:35:40] You know, it's like as if it's on its own path and didn't take anything from the previous episodes.

[00:35:45] Other than, of course, the fact that the Watcher has been interfering in those worlds and in those experiences of those people.

[00:35:52] So, yeah.

[00:35:53] Yeah.

[00:35:54] Yeah.

[00:35:54] Great stuff.

[00:35:55] Thanks, Dr. Bob.

[00:35:56] And yes, Dr. Bob, as you probably know, both myself and John wear glasses.

[00:35:59] So, we're not in denial.

[00:36:01] We are those people.

[00:36:02] I think Chris also wears glasses most of the time now as well.

[00:36:05] So, yeah.

[00:36:06] Yeah.

[00:36:06] So, none of us are in denial.

[00:36:09] But to your point as well, you know, the mention of the Hallmark moment at the end of each episode for the first couple of first four or five episodes where we had the Watcher kind of calling out,

[00:36:18] Oh, it's about the friends.

[00:36:20] Oh, it's about parents being great because the Watcher is now trapped.

[00:36:23] He doesn't get those lines.

[00:36:24] So, it's more seamless in the episode where we have Peggy actually saying herself, I'm not going to lose friends.

[00:36:29] I need to support and I need to make sure those people that I'm sacrificing to save another friend aren't sacrificed.

[00:36:36] I can be the one to make that sacrifice.

[00:36:38] I think it works much more seamless when you see it on screen and the characters are actually doing something rather than the Watcher at the end coming over going,

[00:36:45] Ah, it's all about the friends.

[00:36:46] You know?

[00:36:47] So, I think it worked much better in this episode.

[00:36:49] So, it doesn't seem as old Disney or old Hallmark movie.

[00:36:55] Yeah.

[00:36:55] Yeah.

[00:36:55] Absolutely.

[00:36:56] Good stuff.

[00:36:56] Thanks, Dr. Bob.

[00:36:57] Yeah.

[00:36:57] Thanks, Dr. Bob.

[00:36:58] And finally, Joe Herbers says, thumbs up for Natasha Lyonne.

[00:37:03] Darcy was great on the culture as well.

[00:37:06] Absolutely.

[00:37:06] Yeah, definitely.

[00:37:07] Yeah.

[00:37:08] It's going to be fun.

[00:37:08] I wish there were donuts that made you lose weight as well.

[00:37:12] That would be amazing.

[00:37:13] That would be so good.

[00:37:14] Yeah.

[00:37:14] Especially after this Christmas season.

[00:37:16] Yeah.

[00:37:17] Maybe our New Year's resolution will be to invent donuts that let you lose weight.

[00:37:23] Exactly.

[00:37:23] So good.

[00:37:25] Excellent.

[00:37:25] Thanks, Joe.

[00:37:26] And that's it for our podcast on the penultimate episode of What If?

[00:37:29] We'll be back next time for our final episode of What If?

[00:37:32] Interestingly called What If?

[00:37:36] Thanks for joining us.

[00:37:37] See you next time.

[00:37:38] Absolutely.

[00:37:38] Thanks so much, fellow defenders, for joining us until the final episode.

[00:37:44] Keep watching.

[00:37:44] Keep listening.

[00:37:45] And, of course, keep defending.

[00:37:48] Bye.

[00:37:48] Bye.