Agatha All Along Episode 5 Review

[00:00:00] This is Defenders Podcast on TV Podcast Industries and we're talking about Agatha All Along, Episode 5, Darkest Hour, Wake Thy Power.

[00:00:10] When Agatha killed her original coven by stealing their power.

[00:00:14] Because her own mother tried to have her executed.

[00:00:16] Are you really defending a noted serial killer, you creepy lurker?

[00:00:20] Come on, someone finish the story!

[00:00:21] When Agatha murdered her sister witches, she spared their young children.

[00:00:25] Yeah, and then they became a feral, hive-minded coven bent on revenge.

[00:00:31] The moral of the story kids is always finish what you started.

[00:00:36] Also, mercy is overrated.

[00:01:09] Welcome back fellow Defenders to the Defenders Podcast on TV Podcast Industries.

[00:01:14] We're here and we're talking about Episode 5 of Agatha All Along,

[00:01:20] Darkest Hour, Wake-eth Thy Power.

[00:01:23] I am one of your hosts, John.

[00:01:26] I am one of your other hosts, Derek.

[00:01:28] And yes-eth, I am Chris-eth.

[00:01:31] If we're gonna go old English, I'm gonna go in with all the if-eths and if-eths,

[00:01:36] and ye-thees that I can, I am Chris-eth.

[00:01:40] Chris-eth, welcome indeed.

[00:01:44] No, it's welcom-eth.

[00:01:47] Well, indeed-eth it is.

[00:01:49] There you go.

[00:01:49] This is the Defenders Podcast on TV Podcast Industries.

[00:01:55] Okay, now it sounds like you're on it.

[00:01:57] Yeah, exactly.

[00:01:59] Okay.

[00:01:59] And you're the actual English one.

[00:02:01] I love it, I love it.

[00:02:03] Welcome back, Chris.

[00:02:04] Welcome back, John.

[00:02:04] Great to have everybody here for another episode of Agatha All Along.

[00:02:08] Chris, we got a message in from Dr. Bob Phillips about your return last week.

[00:02:12] He just wanted to say quickly, thank you so much for being so impressed with the episode that you didn't sing.

[00:02:17] I was on tenterhooks throughout the whole podcast.

[00:02:20] There you go.

[00:02:21] See? See?

[00:02:22] I actually did threaten it twice.

[00:02:26] I know.

[00:02:26] And then only sang at the end when we had stopped recording.

[00:02:30] Exactly.

[00:02:30] Absolutely.

[00:02:31] Just in case you're wondering whether I edited it out or not, I didn't.

[00:02:35] So for Dr. Bob Phillips, you kept him on tenterhooks for the entire episode, Chris.

[00:02:39] There you go.

[00:02:40] That helped.

[00:02:42] Yes.

[00:02:42] Thanks, Dr. Bob.

[00:02:43] Thanks, Dr. Bob.

[00:02:44] Fellow Defenders, you know the drill.

[00:02:46] Pop on over to our website at tvpodcastindustries.com

[00:02:50] where you can subscribe to the podcast if you haven't done already.

[00:02:55] You can subscribe to any Wiccan or Android-loving podcast player of your choice.

[00:03:02] We here at TV Podcast Industries, especially on the Defenders Podcast, love to get your thoughts,

[00:03:09] theories, observations, and comments all about the episodes that we cover.

[00:03:14] So please, why don't you send your emails to feedback at tvpodcastindustries.com

[00:03:19] or head on over to our spoiler posts on our Facebook group at facebook.com forward slash groups forward slash TV Podcast Industries

[00:03:30] where you can join in with our lovely fellow Defenders, fellow industrialists, and fellow you name it, whatever we're covering.

[00:03:40] Well, Gothamites at the moment.

[00:03:42] Gothamites at the moment, yes.

[00:03:43] And Ringers have just literally sailed into the West on the podcast after we have concluded our season two of The Rings of Power.

[00:03:54] Mm-hmm.

[00:03:55] What an excellent series.

[00:03:56] And that finale was really good.

[00:03:59] Yeah.

[00:03:59] It was so pretty.

[00:04:00] It was very pretty and very violent and very cool.

[00:04:03] Yeah, it was an excellent season TV.

[00:04:04] Yeah.

[00:04:05] And I quite fancy Sauron as well.

[00:04:07] I mean, Sauron is a bit of a hottie, actually.

[00:04:09] At times.

[00:04:11] When he's not burning.

[00:04:13] Exactly, yes.

[00:04:14] When he's not being a great deceiver.

[00:04:15] Yeah.

[00:04:16] He's a bit of a hottie.

[00:04:17] Okay.

[00:04:18] Oh, Sauron.

[00:04:19] You temptress.

[00:04:21] Oh, Sauron.

[00:04:22] While we're in the world of fantasy, I will quickly shout out, we just hit week two of The Legend of Vax Machina release on Pride video.

[00:04:31] If you're a fan of animation, if you're a fan of D&D, if you're a fan of just good and good adult, I will namely say adult animation.

[00:04:41] If you like some of the stuff we covered in Invincible, do strongly recommend this.

[00:04:47] It's season three of The Legend of Vax Machina.

[00:04:50] Oh, yeah.

[00:04:50] For you guys who do Critical Role.

[00:04:51] Absolutely brilliant.

[00:04:53] Six episodes are out so far.

[00:04:55] So get on it.

[00:04:57] It is fantastic.

[00:04:59] Each episode is 20 minutes and it just, they drop three episodes last week and three episodes this week.

[00:05:06] Definitely something to check out.

[00:05:08] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:05:09] It's great stuff.

[00:05:10] It is really good.

[00:05:11] It's a really good show.

[00:05:12] Oh, absolutely.

[00:05:12] You guys are big fans.

[00:05:13] Just to say though, if you don't have Prime Video, the first two seasons of Vax Machina were actually put up by the channel on YouTube because they want more people to watch it as it comes into season three.

[00:05:23] So you can see the first two seasons without even subscribing to Prime Video and then go and subscribe to Prime Video to see the third season.

[00:05:29] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:05:30] It's really good.

[00:05:31] Chris introduced me to Vax Machina.

[00:05:33] Really, really enjoyed season one, season two as well.

[00:05:37] And of course, season three, as Chris said, great adult animation.

[00:05:41] And yeah, unfortunately we're not covering it.

[00:05:45] But we have time.

[00:05:46] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:05:47] Absolutely.

[00:05:47] And it's just one of those things where if we don't have time sort of, or it doesn't fit in at least those initial episodes for the first season, then it unfortunately falls by the wayside for us.

[00:05:58] Yes.

[00:05:58] But also a podcast about a D&D group that became a D&D team going on adventures every week that became an animated series and then being podcasted on by us.

[00:06:09] I don't think it would have fitted into everything that we do.

[00:06:12] And I don't have enough knowledge about it to contribute at all.

[00:06:15] That's true.

[00:06:15] But as usual, it's more to do with our cup of overflowing with wonderful shows to cover more than anything else.

[00:06:21] Yes, exactly.

[00:06:23] But let us get on to this wonderful show.

[00:06:27] Agatha, all along.

[00:06:29] Episode five.

[00:06:30] Darkest Hour.

[00:06:32] Wake thy power.

[00:06:35] Derek, who gave us what, were, when and how?

[00:06:38] Well, of course, showrunner for the show is Jack Schaefer, who was also the showrunner for WandaVision.

[00:06:43] This episode was written by Laura Monti, a script coordinator on WandaVision and one of the members of the writing team for the show.

[00:06:49] This episode was directed by Rachel Goldberg, once again, who directed episode three and four as well.

[00:06:53] Excellent.

[00:06:54] I wonder if that's sort of family Goldberg fame.

[00:06:57] I don't think so.

[00:06:58] I don't think she's a member of Goldberg's.

[00:07:01] Well.

[00:07:02] But she could be.

[00:07:03] She could be.

[00:07:03] I haven't researched that at all.

[00:07:05] But I didn't see it on our IMDb page.

[00:07:08] Love that show.

[00:07:08] Love that show.

[00:07:09] It's a fun issues show, yes.

[00:07:10] Yeah, exactly.

[00:07:11] John, do you want to tell us what they gave us with your synopsis for this very short episode of Agatha all along?

[00:07:16] Sure.

[00:07:17] Summoning the green witch Rio to the witch's road left a door open for Agatha's pursuers, the Salem Seven, to follow the coven.

[00:07:26] Unwittingly, they discuss Agatha's murder of her coven and learn that she left their daughters alive and they are on a vendetta against her.

[00:07:34] To escape the transforming hunters, the teen again suggests using old magic, which the coven reluctantly use and take to the skies on brooms.

[00:07:44] But the witch's road drags them back down for the next trial, a blood red trial for Agatha herself.

[00:07:52] She must use a Ouija board to contact a spirit and learns that she must be punished before leaving.

[00:07:58] The ghost of Agatha's mother tries to get the coven to kill Agatha as punishment and possesses her.

[00:08:05] Alice tries to give her coven mate some power to fight off the possession, but Agatha almost unconsciously drains Alice, leaving her for dead.

[00:08:15] While the teen mourns Alice another ghost, Agatha's son, Nicholas Scratch arrives as her real punishment, calling on his mother to stop hurting Alice.

[00:08:26] With the task complete, the remaining witches escape.

[00:08:30] But back on the road, a repowered Agatha recognizes the teen.

[00:08:35] He reminds her of her mother, but she's never seen him wearing a crown.

[00:08:41] But Lilia and Jennifer drag Agatha off the road to be buried as they turn towards the teen.

[00:08:47] But he is now a fully powered Wiccan who pushes them off the road.

[00:08:52] But where is the green witch Rio?

[00:08:55] Will she be able to save them or will she even care?

[00:09:00] Yes.

[00:09:00] Where is Rio?

[00:09:01] Noticeably absent at the end of the episode.

[00:09:03] Absolutely.

[00:09:04] But I know who isn't.

[00:09:06] It's a Wiccan or is it the Wiccan?

[00:09:09] Yeah, I'm saying it's the Wiccan.

[00:09:11] I'm saying they ended the episode on this cliffhanger so that we would all speculate for a whole week.

[00:09:17] And it could be just somebody projecting their luck onto him.

[00:09:20] So he is a Wiccan because he is a magic using male witch, which is a Wiccan.

[00:09:26] There you go.

[00:09:26] But it's just a crown.

[00:09:28] It's the crown that just...

[00:09:29] Yeah.

[00:09:30] Sets it off.

[00:09:31] Yeah.

[00:09:31] Sets off the luck.

[00:09:32] But that could be just what young Wiccans these days wear, Chris.

[00:09:37] As a fan of the school of the MCU and especially the fan of episodic writing.

[00:09:46] And this is 100% done and stopped at that point, in particular, en masse to make us go for the next seven days.

[00:09:55] As you said, every YouTuber around and content creator is literally scrambling to create the history of Wiccan.

[00:10:04] Absolutely.

[00:10:05] Oh, absolutely.

[00:10:06] Yeah.

[00:10:06] Like, that is where we are.

[00:10:07] And the fact that they included Nicholas Scratch in this at the exact same time as a separate spirit shows that Nicholas Scratch is not in the team.

[00:10:20] So they're just like, here's all your things.

[00:10:23] Tick, tick, tick.

[00:10:24] Yeah.

[00:10:24] But it's too convenient.

[00:10:28] Yeah.

[00:10:29] Yeah.

[00:10:29] I think that's the way of putting it.

[00:10:31] But let us get on with our top five spells for this episode, which was a little short.

[00:10:38] It was.

[00:10:39] Yeah.

[00:10:39] It felt very short and snappy.

[00:10:41] I think 23 minutes.

[00:10:42] Yeah.

[00:10:42] So it's almost 10 minutes or 15 minutes shorter than the average episode so far this season.

[00:10:47] It was.

[00:10:47] It was snappy.

[00:10:48] It felt very much that they like literally from the second it started, it was just it was a chase.

[00:11:00] And like, it felt that concise.

[00:11:01] So I know it was an actual chase.

[00:11:03] Yeah.

[00:11:03] But it felt very much in that edited bay to give you that sense of breathlessness between the.

[00:11:12] There was no stopping scenes.

[00:11:14] Yeah.

[00:11:14] It was all frenetic, wasn't it?

[00:11:16] It was all very frenetic.

[00:11:18] Yes.

[00:11:19] Very.

[00:11:19] Even in the cabin.

[00:11:20] Yeah.

[00:11:21] Like it was like nonstop.

[00:11:23] But like this podcast, let us get into spell number one.

[00:11:28] The Salem Seven.

[00:11:31] The Salem Seven.

[00:11:31] So we get a bit of kind of background here as well as them leaking through from the real world onto the Witch's Road, which was pretty cool.

[00:11:39] This was such a cool opener for the episode as you saw them seeping in to the Witch's Road.

[00:11:45] What a cool way of showing them.

[00:11:47] We get the kind of reveal as Lillia sees them arriving that it's because they've called Rio to the Witch's Road.

[00:11:54] They've kind of left the door open for the abilities of the Salem Seven to get through the door blocking the way, which is where they were bound last time in Agatha's house.

[00:12:05] So that's cool.

[00:12:06] And then you just see them kind of inkily in the black seeping into the scenes.

[00:12:11] It was cool.

[00:12:12] Yeah.

[00:12:12] I kind of thought it was like part the ring, you know, that sort of that jerky movement and part ring wraith with the cloaks and all that and the whispers and the kind of hissing of the whispers.

[00:12:24] Yeah.

[00:12:24] But yeah, no, they're a very cool aesthetic.

[00:12:27] I really, really enjoyed just how they moved, how they took the screen.

[00:12:32] I like the one that howls up towards the blood red moon type thing, calling the other or the remaining members of the Salem Seven to kind of her location.

[00:12:43] Like you could see that classic Disney green, which, you know, the face being green.

[00:12:51] And so I thought that was really, really cool.

[00:12:53] Yeah.

[00:12:54] To be honest.

[00:12:55] Do you believe something they left the door open?

[00:12:58] It feels like a rookie thing.

[00:13:01] And if you think about it, they weren't rushing when Rio came through.

[00:13:06] Oh, okay.

[00:13:07] Yeah.

[00:13:07] I see your question.

[00:13:09] No, it's not that they left the door open.

[00:13:11] The door was closed behind them and that blocked the Salem Seven from arriving.

[00:13:15] It's that they cast the spell which pulled Rio from the outside world, creating a new door effectively.

[00:13:21] Yes.

[00:13:21] No, I know.

[00:13:22] Came through.

[00:13:22] Yeah.

[00:13:22] But do you feel like they actually left it open a crack?

[00:13:26] Because these are not junior witches.

[00:13:30] You would assume that like they didn't do that one, that in kind of the calling for

[00:13:35] Rio, the green witch.

[00:13:36] Like a schoolboy era.

[00:13:37] It's a bit schoolboy era.

[00:13:39] It feels like, did one of them, did Rio leave it open?

[00:13:44] Or maybe, yeah.

[00:13:45] Like, did Rio leave it open on purpose?

[00:13:47] Did, are we going to find out that Jen is actually working against him and has been working with

[00:13:53] the Salem staff?

[00:13:54] Like, it just felt very, they, she purposely made, remember Agatha when they actually came

[00:13:59] down the first time to a witch show.

[00:14:00] She purposely closed it.

[00:14:01] She like touched it to make sure it was closed.

[00:14:04] Like, from a magical sense.

[00:14:06] It just feels, again, I could be clutching at straws here.

[00:14:10] Like, it just, it like, it feels like, as John said, a schoolboy or this school, a baby

[00:14:15] witch error.

[00:14:16] Like, oh no, we left the spell slightly ajar.

[00:14:20] So now the people coming can get here.

[00:14:23] Because, yeah.

[00:14:25] It just felt a bit off.

[00:14:26] See, I take it from the warning before they summoned Rio last episode.

[00:14:31] It was, you can't summon a witch down to the witch's road.

[00:14:33] You don't do that.

[00:14:34] You gather your coven together and then you all come in to the witch's road together.

[00:14:38] And then because Mrs. Hart died, they had to summon a replacement witch.

[00:14:41] And by summoning a replacement witch, this caused this problem.

[00:14:44] That there's now a tear allowing the Salem-Satel to come in.

[00:14:48] Yeah.

[00:14:48] I didn't see that.

[00:14:49] That it was because of that warning that we'd heard in the last episode.

[00:14:53] But it is really interesting.

[00:14:54] So, we had wondered whether this was potentially Agatha's coven that she'd killed off.

[00:14:58] Oh yeah.

[00:14:58] That we saw in the flashback and we saw in the opening scene of this episode, in the

[00:15:03] previously on in this episode.

[00:15:04] And it turns out actually, Agatha did kill all of her coven, but left all of their children

[00:15:08] alive.

[00:15:08] And those children have formed together to come on a revenge spree effectively over the centuries.

[00:15:15] And I absolutely love Agatha's line as they're all talking about this amongst themselves.

[00:15:19] And as she walks back in and goes, well, it just goes to show, finish what you started

[00:15:23] and mercy is overrated.

[00:15:25] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:15:26] So, while she was thought of it as a very merciful act.

[00:15:29] And again, you know, she's the villainess who's become the central character in her own

[00:15:32] show.

[00:15:33] So, they gotta see her as a little bit heroic.

[00:15:35] She killed all of the members of her coven around her who wanted her dead.

[00:15:39] As Rio points out, her mom was the one that was trying to lead them all to kill her.

[00:15:44] Agatha killing all of them is reactionary, is trying to protect her own life from being

[00:15:49] killed.

[00:15:49] But she mercifully leaves their kids alive and now they're coming back after her.

[00:15:53] So, I thought those were kind of interesting details.

[00:15:56] Yeah, I did.

[00:15:57] I really enjoyed it.

[00:15:58] I kind of like this idea that they have become this murderous, feral coven bent on revenge

[00:16:05] against Agatha.

[00:16:07] And again, just coming back to the Rio thing as well, it was also just, I felt Rio was

[00:16:12] kind of a bit topsy-turvy in this episode.

[00:16:15] I don't mean in a bad way.

[00:16:16] I mean, like, she was conflicted, I guess.

[00:16:19] Yeah.

[00:16:20] And so, I think to the point that possibly with the summoning spell, you know, it could just

[00:16:26] be that it's left this conduit for the Salem Seven to kind of jerkily crawl through.

[00:16:33] Yeah.

[00:16:33] But I wonder if Rio, given she wants bodies, they're quite effective at that by the looks

[00:16:41] of it.

[00:16:41] You know, they're pretty kind of top trump cards, level 10, I guess.

[00:16:47] You know, you'd be kind of playing them for a lot of power moves.

[00:16:50] Maybe.

[00:16:51] So, but I kind of like this little bit background.

[00:16:54] I like that they flashed back to the WandaVision sort of scene of Agatha killing her coven.

[00:17:03] And I like then how that connected sort of later through into the episode with Agatha's

[00:17:09] mother arriving at that trial as well.

[00:17:13] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:17:14] It's cool.

[00:17:15] I like the union mind approach that they call, they have a singular mind, the Salem Seven.

[00:17:20] So they formed this kind of hive mind as it's called actually.

[00:17:24] Yes.

[00:17:25] Which is, it's a cool thing.

[00:17:27] So they're acting as one to a degree as the Seven.

[00:17:33] And it's a unique, as you guys said, it's not what we thought where it is.

[00:17:38] It is the, it's the, it's the, the children.

[00:17:42] So there's a lot of parallels being drawn here.

[00:17:46] So you obviously have Agatha with her child, Nicholas.

[00:17:50] You have Agatha with the coven's children.

[00:17:52] You have Agatha and the teen, which is potentially, which is child.

[00:17:57] Like we have all these parallels between mother and child being kind of drawn.

[00:18:05] Yeah.

[00:18:06] Even in this episode, as you said, because we see Agatha's mother again later.

[00:18:11] Mm-hmm .

[00:18:13] So it would be interesting to see again, how this one's resolved because yes, they're out for blood, but they're out for blood because their parents were, where their mothers were killed by Agatha.

[00:18:27] Yeah.

[00:18:27] So there's a justification here.

[00:18:29] It's a proper revenge tale.

[00:18:30] Yeah.

[00:18:30] And I kind of like it.

[00:18:31] And you chose a great word there, John, about them being feral.

[00:18:34] You know, the, the idea is that they've been around for what's it six, 700 years now on a revenge path, looking for Agatha, turning themselves into animals so they can monitor what she's doing.

[00:18:43] So they have almost become feral effectively.

[00:18:46] They've, they've found their way here and they are of a singular unified purpose where all of them are there for one goal.

[00:18:54] And that's to kill Agatha Harkness.

[00:18:56] You know, and it is interesting that she's there with a coven and none of them really have the same goal.

[00:19:01] All of them have a different goal, unless you just say getting to the end of the witch's road is their goal, but they all have a different goal.

[00:19:08] Yeah.

[00:19:08] And that's starting to cause friction amongst this group.

[00:19:11] Yeah.

[00:19:12] Absolutely.

[00:19:12] So I love that stuff.

[00:19:13] Yeah.

[00:19:13] Great stuff.

[00:19:14] And I think we can move on to our second spell to hex and besan.

[00:19:20] We will ride on a broom.

[00:19:23] I think broom riding for broom Hilders, I guess.

[00:19:27] I really.

[00:19:29] I just thought it was so good.

[00:19:31] It really evoked.

[00:19:33] I think the industrial complex to exploit the, the, the witch culture.

[00:19:40] Uh, and of course that sort of, uh, non empowering symbol of female, uh, domesticity.

[00:19:47] Absolutely.

[00:19:47] Love that from Lillian.

[00:19:48] It was so good.

[00:19:49] But love that.

[00:19:51] But on a serious note, I just thought it was really, really cool.

[00:19:55] I kind of enjoyed the whole thing because as the witches are kind of silhouetted against the blood red moon, they're really enjoying themselves.

[00:20:05] I like going, I haven't done this in ages.

[00:20:08] Yeah.

[00:20:08] It's, it's almost kind of like being a kid again for the witch.

[00:20:12] And I just really, really.

[00:20:13] What do you even say is like centuries?

[00:20:14] Yeah, exactly.

[00:20:15] Like literal ages.

[00:20:15] Yeah.

[00:20:16] And the team going, why don't we just travel the road like this all the time?

[00:20:19] It's so cool.

[00:20:20] So I just thought this was a really good fun thing.

[00:20:23] And of course to escape the Salem seven as they've kind of sort of pegged them in on, on the witches road.

[00:20:29] Yeah.

[00:20:30] So I kind of liked how this came up again, another piece of old magic that is being suggested here by the team.

[00:20:41] Mm hmm.

[00:20:41] And so again, another little nod to this, this kid and having significant sort of old school knowledge.

[00:20:50] Absolutely.

[00:20:51] Even though he says that, you know, witches of their generation don't like, they're like brooms.

[00:20:56] I must say, I had to write, I had to read the, the subtitles like three times to work out what the hell they were talking about.

[00:21:01] The hex and best.

[00:21:02] And I was like, is it a hex that they're putting on somebody?

[00:21:04] Is it a spell they're putting somewhere?

[00:21:06] But hex and best is just the name for witches broom.

[00:21:09] It's not a spell.

[00:21:10] It's just witches broom.

[00:21:11] It's the original, the original word for it.

[00:21:14] So that's why I was just completely confused why they didn't want hexes.

[00:21:18] What, why didn't they want to do that?

[00:21:19] And then they were all fine with doing a broom, but I love the little ceremony of it that each

[00:21:23] of them have to kind of gift a branch to each other.

[00:21:27] Yeah.

[00:21:27] Say the, say the quickly as well.

[00:21:29] Yeah, exactly.

[00:21:30] Say the Latin spell.

[00:21:31] And then they're able to fly on the broom.

[00:21:32] I love again, the team going, how the hell do I do this?

[00:21:35] And he's just told keep up.

[00:21:37] That's it.

[00:21:37] Yeah, no, absolutely.

[00:21:39] It was really good.

[00:21:39] And I love the fact that as they kind of fall back to the road, because the road is

[00:21:45] pulling them back on it effectively.

[00:21:47] And you have all the, all of the, the witches screaming apart from Rio, who gives out a

[00:21:53] good old witches cackle and really liked that.

[00:21:57] Yeah.

[00:21:58] I thought this was really an, a lot of fun.

[00:22:00] I loved a lot of the imagery of this.

[00:22:02] And so, yeah, this was a great little moment here as they escape the Salem seven.

[00:22:09] Yeah.

[00:22:09] And for me, this is reminiscent of, um, bed knobs and broomsticks.

[00:22:14] If you guys remember that.

[00:22:15] I do.

[00:22:16] Yeah.

[00:22:17] I remember it well.

[00:22:18] Yeah.

[00:22:18] Yeah.

[00:22:18] And like, it was just the fun side of magic.

[00:22:21] Yeah.

[00:22:22] The fun side of witchcraft of, and it was just seeing that very, there was, they evoked

[00:22:27] it even through the music, just so that part, if you think about the, a lot of the, a lot

[00:22:33] of the accompanying music in the last couple of evils has been darker, more orchestral,

[00:22:38] where this was more kind of fanfare kind of like very sweet harmonized music as they were

[00:22:45] flying.

[00:22:46] And it's almost like that, almost like it seems Spielberg E.T. moment as they go through

[00:22:51] the air.

[00:22:52] So it was, yeah, definitely called the E.T. part.

[00:22:54] Yeah.

[00:22:55] Yeah.

[00:22:55] I was like, very cool.

[00:22:57] Understand what you're trying to do here.

[00:22:58] This is the fun of witchcraft.

[00:23:00] And they're coming together, forming a coven.

[00:23:03] They're becoming a cohesive unit.

[00:23:06] Mm-hmm.

[00:23:06] And it was at that, it was actual point where I had a pained look towards me.

[00:23:11] Mm-hmm.

[00:23:12] I was like, oh, we're, this is going to get me horrible again because you're like, that's

[00:23:19] the lost love.

[00:23:21] Absolutely.

[00:23:22] Uh, look like, oh, what, what have I done?

[00:23:26] And I'm like, okay, so at that point, this is not a happy end.

[00:23:29] Like we're not getting towards the happy ending here.

[00:23:31] No.

[00:23:32] This is just going to get worse.

[00:23:33] Um, and we're a hundred percent did, which because a split second later, they're forced

[00:23:39] back onto the witch's road.

[00:23:41] Exactly.

[00:23:42] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:23:43] And I think with that onto forcing us onto our spell number three is because not only forced

[00:23:49] back onto the witch's road, but confronted on that road with the third trial.

[00:23:56] Uh, we go from broom riding to the blood moon trial.

[00:24:02] Yeah.

[00:24:03] For Agatha, uh, Harkness.

[00:24:06] And of course, this really invoked a lot of great eighties horror.

[00:24:12] That's happened in the woods Friday the 13th and evil as well.

[00:24:17] And certainly when we have the possession of, um, Agatha as well, another little nod to

[00:24:24] evil dead there.

[00:24:25] So I really, I love this.

[00:24:27] I loved as they were kind of escaping the Salem seven and you know, they, they ride their

[00:24:33] brooms through one of them.

[00:24:35] Yeah.

[00:24:35] They're kind of converted to bugs.

[00:24:37] And as they go through into the cabin, they're all in this eighties outfit, uh, with Agatha

[00:24:44] sort of trying to get one of the bugs out of her hair.

[00:24:48] Yeah.

[00:24:48] Um, I'm certain that, that the outfits are from eighties horror movies specifically.

[00:24:54] Oh, absolutely.

[00:24:55] I can definitely recognize a couple of outfits from, uh, from Friday the 13th, uh, in there.

[00:25:00] So, uh, so it isn't just evil dead.

[00:25:02] It's definitely a mix of the two of those of front of the 13th evil dead.

[00:25:06] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:25:06] And just before we go into sort of kind of the trial, but just to our conversation right

[00:25:13] at the start, uh, around, you know, the Wiccan or a Wiccan.

[00:25:18] Um, I thought that the teens outfit in the cabin really hinted at Wiccan.

[00:25:25] You had the blue, the band around the head and then that red, that jumper, um, really,

[00:25:34] um, invoked, uh, some of the recent comic looks of Wiccan to me.

[00:25:39] I can kind of see that, but again, this is, this is one that specifically reminds me of

[00:25:43] Friday the 13th.

[00:25:44] That's the, that's the effort.

[00:25:45] I think it's Kevin Bacon in the first Friday the 13th, uh, movie, if I, if I remember rightly,

[00:25:49] uh, and that's his outfit.

[00:25:50] So, uh, it's almost, almost, uh, exactly, but it serves both purposes.

[00:25:54] Exactly.

[00:25:55] Both can be true.

[00:25:56] Both can be true.

[00:25:57] Um, for sure.

[00:25:58] Uh, but no, I mean, as I say, it's just a little thing that, you know, it may or may

[00:26:04] not amount to anything, but, uh, if it does amount to it being a little nod to the Wiccan

[00:26:10] and the Wiccan at the end, well then, you know, that'd be great.

[00:26:15] And if not, well, it got me, uh, theorizing for most of the week.

[00:26:20] Uh, writing my blogs.

[00:26:23] Okay.

[00:26:24] I think I have to say, I like the choice here to bring in the Ouija board.

[00:26:28] Mm-hmm.

[00:26:28] Yeah.

[00:26:29] This is a fun piece where you know that there's a lot of death in Agatha's background.

[00:26:36] Yeah.

[00:26:36] So, and you expect from the conversations being brought up about her son consistently,

[00:26:45] that that is the demonic entry first.

[00:26:48] Mm.

[00:26:49] That is the thing that will go.

[00:26:51] So when they first go a fake out with Mrs.

[00:26:55] Harsh and it's Agatha playing, messing around, I was like, brilliant.

[00:27:00] That is really funny.

[00:27:02] And the fact that I didn't get it for immediately, because why would the ghost of Sharon Davis

[00:27:08] use a Ouija board and put Mrs.

[00:27:10] Harsh in there?

[00:27:11] You know, why would you do that?

[00:27:13] And then Agatha tries to impersonate her going, I drink before midday.

[00:27:17] Um, you know, I get myself involved in, uh, all of these adventures because my life's

[00:27:21] so boring and that's her impersonation of Mrs.

[00:27:23] Harsh.

[00:27:24] You're going, oh, hang on a second.

[00:27:25] That's not Mrs.

[00:27:26] Harsh.

[00:27:26] So they all go, that's just Agatha.

[00:27:29] Uh, but I love the kind of touch of Rio here.

[00:27:32] And again, you were saying she got, we go back and forth quite a lot with Rio in this

[00:27:36] episode, but she seems much more loving towards Agatha after last week's episode.

[00:27:40] Um, she specifically calls out here.

[00:27:42] The reason why Agatha is doing it is because she's terrified of facing the trial.

[00:27:46] She's absolutely terrified.

[00:27:47] This is the trial that's going to kill her or she will have to face some really bad trauma

[00:27:51] in her past.

[00:27:52] So interesting that Rio calls that out directly after she's doing the impersonation.

[00:27:57] So that's why she chose to do the impersonation, hoping she could just, uh, fake the trial.

[00:28:01] Yeah.

[00:28:02] Fake it till she makes it.

[00:28:03] Yeah.

[00:28:03] I mean, sorry.

[00:28:04] I've got to, I've got to spin back around to the fake out actually, because I didn't

[00:28:09] get it until Jennifer said it.

[00:28:11] I was there.

[00:28:12] Uh, the main thing that was going through my head was, Oh, why didn't they use her voice

[00:28:16] to do this?

[00:28:17] Yeah.

[00:28:18] Yeah.

[00:28:19] Well, maybe that's a good choice.

[00:28:21] I, and then it was like, Oh, she's faking it.

[00:28:24] And I was like, okay, Grant, that's why they didn't use that.

[00:28:28] Yeah.

[00:28:29] She does a good enough job that you, you know, she's trying to, she's trying to pull the

[00:28:33] wall out of people's eyes, but it's just the line of, uh, I drink, I drink in the morning.

[00:28:37] Basically.

[00:28:37] I believe Mrs. Hart would have done that or Sharon, uh, Shazza, you know, you name it.

[00:28:42] When she's done her 10 minutes of gardening every morning, then she goes in and cracks

[00:28:45] open a bottle of wine.

[00:28:47] Green fingers, red tongue.

[00:28:48] Yeah.

[00:28:49] There you go.

[00:28:51] But we do get the actual reveal of, uh, of who is on the Ouija board.

[00:28:56] Now an interesting one here.

[00:28:57] Um, the name that appears that when they ask who's there, uh, what appears is death.

[00:29:03] D E A T H. Uh, death is a comic book character in Marvel comics.

[00:29:07] Um, connected to Thanos, the girlfriend of Thanos, um, at the time he starts the infinity

[00:29:11] war to impress her.

[00:29:12] Um, so, so it's a quite a big character.

[00:29:15] Um, but that's not the name that's appearing.

[00:29:17] It's, uh, it's saying, uh, that it wants death.

[00:29:21] It wants, um, the witch taking this trial to be punished.

[00:29:25] So, uh, that's why the trial is Agatha's and that's what she has to achieve, right?

[00:29:30] Yep.

[00:29:31] Has to, has to get punished.

[00:29:32] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:29:33] The punishment as being called out was fun.

[00:29:36] Can I say fun, but it wasn't what, again, what you were expecting.

[00:29:41] Okay.

[00:29:41] I was expecting kind of like honesty or revelation or truth.

[00:29:48] Truth is what, again, this show is a lot darker than some of the other MC like you properties

[00:29:56] that we've kind of seen.

[00:29:57] Yeah.

[00:29:57] And it's just even thematically, I think you're talking about patricide, matricide,

[00:30:04] infanticide, getting all of the sides in there.

[00:30:06] Yeah.

[00:30:07] And they're doing like, when Agatha goes all exorcist, that's proper.

[00:30:15] Like they, they had her doing the backflip and the crab walk up the walls and things.

[00:30:20] Absolutely.

[00:30:21] I was like, well done.

[00:30:23] Yeah.

[00:30:23] Yeah.

[00:30:23] They really, they really got those touches of, of evil dead.

[00:30:26] It's just so interesting when you, uh, when you say that, you know, they do have a bit

[00:30:29] of, a bit of exorcist and a bit of evil dead, but it's so interesting that Sam Raimi

[00:30:32] is the last person to direct, um, to direct one of the Maximoff in a, in a Marvel movie,

[00:30:36] right?

[00:30:37] So with, uh, with, um, multiverse of madness, uh, and he's the original director of evil dead.

[00:30:42] So the kind of taken back inspiration from the director of one division, I think that's

[00:30:46] kind of cool.

[00:30:46] Um, but it is really interesting that she's being told she has to be punished here.

[00:30:52] You're right.

[00:30:52] The, the idea that Agatha might have to tell the truth for once, uh, would be an amazing

[00:30:56] trial for us.

[00:30:57] And she can never tell the truth and never, uh, and never tell the coven what, what's actually

[00:31:01] going on, but they all propose different ways of doing it.

[00:31:04] Do you notice that in the conversation, you know, you have Rio kind of go and not just slit

[00:31:07] her throat, which is an interesting flip from her being so caring beforehand.

[00:31:10] Um, and doesn't Jen say, um, you can just humiliate her.

[00:31:15] That would be punishment enough.

[00:31:16] Yeah, exactly.

[00:31:17] And then you have Lillia's just saying, tie her up and leave her.

[00:31:23] Yeah.

[00:31:23] I think it, yeah.

[00:31:24] And I mean, ultimately as well, what I like here is that it is the, the true punishment

[00:31:32] or thing that Agatha has to face that is kind of saying this, but I like how they mix

[00:31:39] it up with the possession of Agatha by her mom as well, because you suddenly go, okay,

[00:31:46] is this what's being called by the Ouija board?

[00:31:49] And I also kind of like how Rio seems to take a bit of a worried look when she realizes that

[00:31:55] a ghost has arrived.

[00:31:57] Yeah.

[00:31:57] Um, and I, I really enjoyed having this connecting back to sort of the flashback from WandaVision.

[00:32:03] Yeah.

[00:32:04] Uh, but also sort of the tales of, um, Agatha's sort of murder of her original coven.

[00:32:12] Yeah.

[00:32:12] Um, so I, I kind of liked how this plays out and, you know, again, this is where you kind

[00:32:17] of realize, um, that actually Agatha is bad.

[00:32:24] Yep.

[00:32:25] You know, like her mom calls it out, you know, um, when Agatha's asks, um, why do you hate

[00:32:31] me so much?

[00:32:32] She's like, you were born evil.

[00:32:34] Um, I should have killed you at birth again, you know, not sort of, sort of, uh, shying

[00:32:40] away from, from what she actually thinks.

[00:32:43] And, and, and again, you know, we.

[00:32:44] I thought that was a pretty heartbreaking scene.

[00:32:46] It is.

[00:32:46] And the rest of the coven really did as well.

[00:32:48] You could see the reactions from the kind of going, well, how was she supposed to grow

[00:32:51] up to be a well adjusted witch if her own mother's saying I should have killed you

[00:32:55] at birth because you were born evil.

[00:32:57] And all of them kind of going, well, I can see why you hate her and took the opportunity

[00:33:01] to kill her and her, her and her coven.

[00:33:03] Um, but why would your mom hate you from birth?

[00:33:06] But it's not, I mean, it is, but then you kind of hear her sort of say, well, I, you

[00:33:14] know, myself and my coven took the risk to destroy Agatha.

[00:33:20] Mm-hmm.

[00:33:21] I, because of her particular skill set of absorbing magical power.

[00:33:26] Yep.

[00:33:26] And now you've just willingly gone and joined her.

[00:33:30] Mm-hmm.

[00:33:30] And she's like, you know, so it's coming from that basis.

[00:33:34] And I kind of, again, it's just more, um, sort of context on that flashback.

[00:33:40] Yeah.

[00:33:40] And I thought it was really, really good.

[00:33:42] Um, because they recognize the danger that she was to other witches.

[00:33:47] Mm-hmm.

[00:33:47] Um, ultimately.

[00:33:48] I mean, this is kind of like, you know, it's, it's all, it's like the Manchurian candidate

[00:33:54] in witches, um, it'll kill them all if they're not careful.

[00:33:58] Well, yeah.

[00:33:58] And type of thing.

[00:33:59] So, um, I kind of, I thought this, yeah, it was harsh.

[00:34:02] It was tragic.

[00:34:03] Mm-hmm.

[00:34:03] But I really enjoyed how this played out with her ghost, like, um, mother.

[00:34:10] Mm-hmm.

[00:34:10] Yeah.

[00:34:11] I thought it was really good.

[00:34:12] Yeah.

[00:34:13] And even just like, you know, we get the flashback at the start of the episode of the

[00:34:17] likes of Jennifer warning the teen about, uh, Agatha as well.

[00:34:22] Um, so just to emphasize the fact that yes, okay.

[00:34:26] As her mother, um, this is particularly sort of personal.

[00:34:32] Mm-hmm.

[00:34:32] Um, but there's a lot of other witches out there that have, you know, not have that kind

[00:34:41] of view all of Agatha.

[00:34:42] Yeah.

[00:34:43] I'm going to post something in a, in a minute on a different point about this point, but

[00:34:46] is there anything else about the, uh, the actual trial itself and what's happening with,

[00:34:50] uh, Evan or Harkness and, uh, the possession of, of, uh, Agatha that you want to talk about?

[00:34:54] Nothing on my set.

[00:34:55] I want to hear this or what you are about to pause it.

[00:34:59] No.

[00:34:59] Um, I think, uh, I really enjoyed this whole sort of Ouija board blood moon trial.

[00:35:05] Absolutely.

[00:35:06] It really works well as, uh, shout back to 80s horror movies and 70s horror movies.

[00:35:11] There was always a Ouija board in the babysitter's room.

[00:35:13] Oh yeah.

[00:35:14] Always, uh, always, uh, and led to lots of people dying.

[00:35:18] So, uh, so really cool to have that in here and really well executed in the show as well.

[00:35:23] Uh, on, onto spell four, uh, because we're going to dedicate a point specifically to the

[00:35:28] loss of another witch on the road.

[00:35:29] Um, draining Alice Wu, um, is our spell point number four.

[00:35:33] Um, Alice steps in as Evan or Harkness is repossessing her daughter.

[00:35:39] Um, they're all choosing whether they leave Agatha behind, whether they take the instruction

[00:35:43] of continuing down the witch's road without her.

[00:35:45] Um, and they're about to leave Agatha behind, but the protection, which Alice jumps in, we

[00:35:50] saw earlier on when the L of the Salem seven, uh, tried to get at the teen.

[00:35:55] It was Alice Wu that stopped, that stopped them from attacking and stopped them from, from

[00:36:01] catching the teen here.

[00:36:03] She's trying to push back the possession from Agatha's mother, Evanora.

[00:36:07] And what it looks to me like, this is, this is the other theory I have.

[00:36:11] What it looks to me like is the second, the power of another witch touches Agatha, she

[00:36:16] starts to drain the power away from Alice.

[00:36:21] So she's trying to give her a little bit of power.

[00:36:24] She's trying to protect her, probably just trying to push out the ghost of Evan or Harkness.

[00:36:28] But Agatha latches onto that power and can't let go more than doesn't want to let go.

[00:36:33] So I feel like while a lot of the story here that we're hearing, and this is part of weekly

[00:36:38] TV, right?

[00:36:40] A lot of the story that we're hearing is that Agatha is evil.

[00:36:42] This is her power.

[00:36:44] She sucks another witch's power if they shoot at her, if they fire at her.

[00:36:48] She can't take their power willingly without them actually attacking her in the first place.

[00:36:53] But when they do, she takes all of their power and that is just what happens.

[00:36:58] And it seems here she has no way of breaking that power until the, even when the rest of

[00:37:04] the Coven are shouting at her, the teens trying to break off the connection between Alice and

[00:37:11] Agatha and she can't.

[00:37:12] It's only when the true source, I guess, of the trial, which is Nicholas Scratch, once

[00:37:17] he calls out to her, that breaks the connection between the two of them.

[00:37:22] And by that stage, Agatha has taken all of Alice's power and leaving her, unfortunately,

[00:37:27] a husk, gone.

[00:37:29] All of the power taken out of her.

[00:37:31] So I wonder if the story has been telling us up to this point that she is a villain because

[00:37:36] the perception of what her power is is that she takes witch's power, but actually it's

[00:37:40] only when she's being attacked and it's something that she had no control over that part of the

[00:37:44] power.

[00:37:45] It kind of amps her up and overloads her almost.

[00:37:48] I mean, agreed.

[00:37:49] Indeed.

[00:37:49] And I think that is a, you know, that is a source of contention with these witches in

[00:38:00] these scenes as well.

[00:38:02] You know, that you have the teen saying you should have stopped and Agatha saying, no,

[00:38:08] I couldn't.

[00:38:09] I, there's nothing I could do.

[00:38:11] But then it also then becomes a bit like, well, like a virus because it's like, that's

[00:38:16] what they are and they happen to destroy.

[00:38:19] And it's like, and I think that's the point of Evanora was it's not that Agatha is bad

[00:38:28] or evil.

[00:38:29] She's bad and evil to people who have lost their witch relatives to Agatha in this way.

[00:38:38] So that's why she's built the reputation.

[00:38:40] Um, you know, even though it's not something she can necessarily control.

[00:38:46] Again, it'd be interesting to see how Rio is connected here as well.

[00:38:51] Absolutely.

[00:38:51] Is it just simply that she's, you know, she's like the rag and bone man picking up the bodies

[00:38:56] at the end to whisk them off to death?

[00:38:59] Is she death herself or, um, you know, is there some reason why she's kind of latched on to

[00:39:06] this power of, of, of Agatha?

[00:39:09] Yeah.

[00:39:09] But I love this whole scene.

[00:39:11] Yeah.

[00:39:12] And for sure, I'm really sad that Alice, um, died as a result.

[00:39:18] Um, I'm kind of really fearful for the other two because I really like Jennifer and Lillia.

[00:39:25] I don't want them to die at the hands of old, you know, magic absorbing Agatha.

[00:39:30] Or anybody.

[00:39:30] Yeah.

[00:39:31] Um, but I, I liked how passionate, um, the teen gets, you know, like he's screaming at

[00:39:41] Agatha, you know, don't touch her.

[00:39:43] Uh, they're trying to see if she can kind of do something, reverse something.

[00:39:47] The teen says, you know, there's always a spell and, and she was protecting you.

[00:39:53] Yeah.

[00:39:54] Uh, but he has actually lost his spell book as well.

[00:39:57] We, we found out, um, from when he was up, uh, in the skies on his broom.

[00:40:02] Mm-hmm.

[00:40:03] So he's got his, his reference book in a sense that has vanished.

[00:40:08] Um, so I, this was all really emotional and it's a shame old Alice's host out.

[00:40:15] It is, isn't it?

[00:40:16] Like I know, you know, they have their trial and something, you know, the next episode,

[00:40:20] we usually get a bit more about them.

[00:40:22] So we saw that with Jennifer, when she completed her trial, we got a bit more of the following

[00:40:25] episode.

[00:40:25] So I was expecting a bit more from Alice, but again, she seems significantly more powerful

[00:40:31] after her trial, this episode, uh, in protecting the other two and protecting, um, the teen

[00:40:37] and Agatha when they're attacked, she seems to be able to tap into a new fame power after

[00:40:41] completing the trial, which is something we talked about last time, but yeah, unfortunately

[00:40:45] she's, uh, she's lost here to the reactionary magic of Agatha is the way I'm going to put

[00:40:50] anyway.

[00:40:51] No, I think, I think you're onto something.

[00:40:53] I think it would make sense to turn Agatha into an almost more morbid character like the

[00:41:00] living vampire.

[00:41:01] Right.

[00:41:02] He, in the comic books, they have been evil for years.

[00:41:06] And in this show previously she's evil, but to turn it into that, she's been a misunderstood

[00:41:12] her initial background before, before being corrupted was essentially, um, that she, she

[00:41:21] was, she's cursed that people attack her.

[00:41:23] Yeah.

[00:41:24] It absorbs the power.

[00:41:26] Yeah.

[00:41:26] Very much like rogue in the X-Men.

[00:41:28] In the X-Men.

[00:41:29] Yeah.

[00:41:29] Yeah.

[00:41:29] Yeah.

[00:41:29] Like basically rogue's power is absorption of power.

[00:41:32] Um, it means she can't touch people and like that made, that started with her being

[00:41:37] a villain.

[00:41:38] Yeah.

[00:41:39] Yeah.

[00:41:39] And like she, well, she was brainwashed and all that part, but anyway, she was a villain

[00:41:43] initially and then they made her a good bird.

[00:41:46] Yeah.

[00:41:47] Cause Agatha in the comic books has always been, um, has never really been a villain or a, or

[00:41:51] a hero.

[00:41:52] She's, she stands in the middle, um, on the, on the witch's road.

[00:41:55] She stands in the middle of everything really.

[00:41:58] So, but I do wonder, and here's one for you, John, that you might like, uh, Dr. Strange

[00:42:02] three movie where they finally go back to the storyline left open in Dr. Strange one, which

[00:42:07] was, uh, Baron Mordo wants to rid the world of magic.

[00:42:10] If he had someone like Agatha to walk alongside him, um, to take the magic out of magic users,

[00:42:15] uh, around the world, that job would suddenly become easy and that story would become quite

[00:42:20] interesting.

[00:42:20] Yeah.

[00:42:21] I will.

[00:42:21] Absolutely.

[00:42:22] Um, Dr. Strange three, you heard it here first, uh, Mordo plus Agatha Harkness going

[00:42:27] around the world, stealing all the magics.

[00:42:29] Yeah, that'd be good.

[00:42:30] And just one final thing on, on this point.

[00:42:32] Um, it's, it's actually to do with the, to do with the trial itself and the revelation,

[00:42:38] I suppose that it is, um, Agatha's mother when she arrives and Evanora Harkness arrives.

[00:42:43] Again, Rio, who had just said, we can just slit her throat and leave her behind.

[00:42:48] The minute she hears it's Evanora Harkness that's there or sees that it's the ghost of

[00:42:52] Agatha's mother.

[00:42:53] She goes, no, she doesn't get to have Agatha.

[00:42:55] So she was instantly trying to stop Agatha from getting beaten by her mother, taken by

[00:43:01] her mother, killed by her mother.

[00:43:03] So just think that's an interesting little touch because the relationship has obviously

[00:43:06] gone on for a very long time and she knows all about who Evanora Harkness is and why Agatha

[00:43:11] killed her and the rest of the Covenant back in Salem.

[00:43:13] I don't think we've heard the full story of that.

[00:43:16] And I think Rio has, has got some connection there.

[00:43:19] Oh yeah.

[00:43:20] Yeah.

[00:43:21] I, I, I like this idea of a curse because then what you can start to play with is part

[00:43:26] of this curse has been like to get the power of the darkhold.

[00:43:32] She had to give up something that was her son, but actually wasn't, it was kind of like

[00:43:37] Mephisto's trick.

[00:43:39] They said, well, look, we're going to give you power, but you have to do X.

[00:43:44] Yeah.

[00:43:45] And then it basically, she got the, this part of that power was this curse, but also he

[00:43:51] tricked her and killed her son.

[00:43:52] So, so she's never been actually that bad.

[00:43:54] She's just lent into it.

[00:43:56] Rio was there with her on the road originally.

[00:43:58] I like, I like where you're going with this and I think it will potentially turn it into

[00:44:04] a nice, again, it's not really even a, maybe it is a redemptive arc.

[00:44:09] Like, because she has done bad things since, like, let's not forget she did imprison Wanda,

[00:44:17] but maybe they're going to shine in a new light.

[00:44:20] Yeah.

[00:44:20] Which is like, maybe she doesn't have a choice sometime.

[00:44:23] They have talked about hell.

[00:44:24] They've talked, they've name checked Mephisto.

[00:44:27] Well, Mephisto as well is also the great trickster.

[00:44:30] So she could have been tricked to have gotten this curse.

[00:44:33] Exactly.

[00:44:34] Or, you know, just cursed and locked in, you know, you're now locked in till the end of

[00:44:42] time.

[00:44:43] Yeah.

[00:44:43] No, it's just, it's a nice way of doing that.

[00:44:46] Actually, she's the misunderstood witch who's just, she has to play the big bad to basically

[00:44:53] stay alive.

[00:44:54] Yeah.

[00:44:55] But I mean, there's properties as well of Agatha Harkness not being the big bad witch.

[00:45:01] Yes, her history has, but you know, she has been redeemed, not just in comics, but say

[00:45:06] in video games as well.

[00:45:09] So, yeah, she's in Marvel's Midnight Sun.

[00:45:11] Yeah, exactly.

[00:45:11] So, you know, there is that side of the character for sure.

[00:45:17] And I think you're seeing how more complex she is than what you got from WandaVision.

[00:45:25] You know, the continuation of the story is showing the complexity as to why she was doing

[00:45:31] that.

[00:45:32] And, you know, and I think that's really good.

[00:45:35] But I think, I think we can move this on to our fifth and final spell.

[00:45:41] Yes, just like your mother.

[00:45:44] Mm-hmm.

[00:45:45] This is really, really good.

[00:45:47] First of all, I think because you see Agatha, she's kind of been, you know, like the old energizer

[00:45:54] bunny.

[00:45:55] She's being kind of like pumped back up with magical energy, but it's just not held.

[00:46:00] Like she hasn't got the ability to sort of retain it.

[00:46:04] So you see her kind of cusping sort of remnants or the last bit of it in the palm of her hand

[00:46:13] that she's absorbed from Alice Wu, but it kind of fizzles out.

[00:46:18] But she's been powered up enough to probably be able to see through a few things.

[00:46:24] And we have this suddenly, she kind of turns a little bit on teen, on the teen.

[00:46:32] You know, the teen's kind of really upset by Alice and he's like, you just wanted her

[00:46:37] power.

[00:46:38] You know, he, the teen really believes that she could have stopped absorbing that power,

[00:46:44] could have cut it off.

[00:46:46] And like, in a sense, she was snapped out of it.

[00:46:50] Yeah.

[00:46:50] And by, by the, the words of Nicholas Scratch where he tells his mom to stop.

[00:46:58] Mm-hmm.

[00:46:58] But in a, in a sense, all of a sudden the teen seems quite disheartened that, you know,

[00:47:05] is all it means here that as a witch, you go around killing people for power and for

[00:47:12] like, as, as he says, your own agenda.

[00:47:15] And he goes, that's not for me.

[00:47:16] But you have the challenge right back from Agatha who says, are you sure?

[00:47:21] And you're so much like your mother.

[00:47:25] And, and that's when it was really imperceptible, but you just kind of almost see as though the

[00:47:32] teen is sort of growing taller a bit in front of her.

[00:47:37] Mm-hmm.

[00:47:37] And like a confidence rushing in.

[00:47:40] Yeah.

[00:47:41] And.

[00:47:41] Just standing really tall.

[00:47:42] Exactly.

[00:47:43] It was really, really well done how, you know, I mean, maybe I was just imagining it,

[00:47:48] but it just felt like, um, it was this confrontation between then a bit more like two equals.

[00:47:57] Mm-hmm.

[00:47:57] But, you know, she even calls him a pet in a really derogatory way and it kind of riles him

[00:48:01] up and you see sort of this flicker of blue magic, um, in, in, um, the teen's hand.

[00:48:09] Interesting.

[00:48:09] Cause I didn't catch the blue magic in it.

[00:48:11] Yeah.

[00:48:12] And you see the blue eyes of Jennifer and Lilia.

[00:48:15] So I assumed he was controlling them to grab, um, Agatha and then toss her effectively into

[00:48:25] that kind of pit, uh, that she sunk them beneath the surface.

[00:48:28] It's just off the road.

[00:48:29] Yeah.

[00:48:29] It's anywhere you step off the road.

[00:48:31] That's what, uh, that's what happens.

[00:48:32] She, as we saw to, uh, Mrs. Hart's back in the first episode.

[00:48:35] And, but I love this, um, I love this as, you know, you see the teen, the looking very defiant,

[00:48:45] um, with the little hintage of, of a crown, uh, on his head.

[00:48:51] So very, yeah, very much.

[00:48:52] I think before I'd even gotten up this morning, uh, there were already images of, um, Scarlet

[00:48:57] Witch and, uh, and the teen, uh, both looking very similar with the, with the crown on their

[00:49:03] head.

[00:49:03] So the crown looking very, uh, very much inspired by Scarlet Witch's crown.

[00:49:07] Um, yes.

[00:49:08] Yeah.

[00:49:08] I do feel that this is Agatha trying to, so when she started getting mean to the teen

[00:49:15] was she's just killed someone.

[00:49:19] Like again, this like trying to push them away.

[00:49:22] So it was like, right, you're come on.

[00:49:25] You're my familiar.

[00:49:26] Just get in line, do as I say and stay away.

[00:49:28] Yeah.

[00:49:29] Um, to push them.

[00:49:30] Um, some, you know, mutants, they sometimes talk about like in the comic books or even

[00:49:35] in the original films, it was like a traumatic experience or so.

[00:49:40] The heightened emotions can usually trigger the, the more, the, the bigger power gap or trigger

[00:49:47] their powers.

[00:49:48] Yeah.

[00:49:48] The feeling this is what this is.

[00:49:50] Mm.

[00:49:50] Tina's just seen, uh, someone who cares about, not saying he didn't care about Mr.

[00:49:55] Hart, but like with the death right in front of him and him blaming Agatha that has got

[00:50:02] his emotions, the anger, the hatred, and that's triggering the, the, the kind of influx of his power.

[00:50:09] Absolutely.

[00:50:10] And you know, I suppose to, to the point of it not being the first time he's seen someone

[00:50:14] die, you know, he did see Mrs. Hart die, but it's, it is different.

[00:50:17] Um, he's been all along this road talking about the fact that they're a coven, the fact

[00:50:23] that they go through everything together.

[00:50:24] Can he be part of the coven and keeps getting pushed back?

[00:50:27] He is just sidelined, but himself and Alice had got that conversation before, um, which

[00:50:33] connected the two of them and the experience that they'd had in the past.

[00:50:36] But also he does feel that this is a coven and that Agatha would never really turn on

[00:50:40] them.

[00:50:40] She might joke about it, but she never really turned on them.

[00:50:43] Uh, and seeing here that maybe the plan all along was for her to just come down to the

[00:50:47] witch's road, kill all the witches on the way.

[00:50:49] It doesn't really matter.

[00:50:50] The end of the road for her would be they're all dead and I have all their powers.

[00:50:54] So that's, you know, that could end after 10 minutes on the witch's road, uh, when she

[00:50:58] takes all their powers, as long as they attack her.

[00:51:00] So, um, that's the realization he seems to be coming to there.

[00:51:03] Um, but it is interesting.

[00:51:05] The, the controlling of, of Lillian and Jen, um, it was weird.

[00:51:09] It was, I did see the blue light blue eyes the first time I watched it and I saw them

[00:51:13] drag Agatha off the road, but it seemed like they were coming towards, um, the team to take

[00:51:19] him and then he switches off the controlling of the two of them and then throws them onto

[00:51:23] the road using his powers.

[00:51:24] So I just wasn't sure was somebody else controlling them to take off Agatha with that.

[00:51:28] Was that Rio maybe, um, that was in control of them, um, while they took off Agatha or was

[00:51:35] he the one in control of two of them the whole time?

[00:51:37] So, uh, so when you say he, he did unleash a little bit of his blue light in that first

[00:51:42] argument before, uh, the two of them were, um, were taken over.

[00:51:46] Yeah.

[00:51:46] Yeah.

[00:51:46] That makes more sense.

[00:51:47] I think my kind of feeling on it is more that, okay, he's kind of pegged in his mind,

[00:51:56] Agatha, but it's when I think Jennifer says, you know, she walks past him and says, well,

[00:52:02] weren't, aren't we all after power?

[00:52:04] Mm.

[00:52:04] You know, what, what did you think this was like, because she's looking to get her power

[00:52:09] back.

[00:52:09] So is Lillia.

[00:52:11] Um, and, and I think that realization that, okay, they may not be as murderous as Agatha

[00:52:18] or as, um, flippant with the death of, you know, the likes of, of Alice.

[00:52:25] Yes.

[00:52:25] But again, it, it, it felt like that just meant you're in the same boat effectively as Agatha.

[00:52:33] And so once they've done their job, he kind of just, it's almost like a, a banishment.

[00:52:40] Right.

[00:52:40] Yep.

[00:52:41] Flinging them off the road and also then sinking beneath, uh, the surface, you know?

[00:52:46] Yeah.

[00:52:47] It was great.

[00:52:48] I really, really enjoyed this bit of it.

[00:52:50] Um, and yeah, interestingly, Rio is not there.

[00:52:53] Yeah.

[00:52:54] Yeah.

[00:52:54] No, I think Rio's with the body.

[00:52:57] Yeah.

[00:52:57] Oh, she is.

[00:52:58] Yeah.

[00:52:58] Yeah.

[00:52:58] And I think it goes back to one of the, one of the things we were talking about earlier

[00:53:01] on in the season where Rio was saying, um, to Agatha, you get the powers, I get the body.

[00:53:06] So, uh, so she's with the body for, for that reason, I would say.

[00:53:09] So, uh, let's see what she's doing.

[00:53:11] I keep thinking she's kind of like doing a snake thing where she's unhinged her jaw and

[00:53:18] she's trying to swallow the body whole.

[00:53:20] Uh, uh, a bit like, uh, what's the Simpsons one where thingy Smithers, Smithers does it

[00:53:28] to, uh, Monty Burns.

[00:53:29] Mm.

[00:53:30] Mm.

[00:53:31] I kind of feel like, uh, she's doing that.

[00:53:33] Well, snake Smithers in the Halloween special.

[00:53:35] Yes.

[00:53:35] It's not just a regular episode.

[00:53:37] No, exactly.

[00:53:37] Exactly.

[00:53:37] It's a whole other episode.

[00:53:39] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:53:40] Um, I do think Rio is when she, we're looking back now, she's like the green witch in that

[00:53:46] kind of demonic voice.

[00:53:48] Mother nature, holding, decomposing, um, taking like you from the earth to back to the earth,

[00:53:56] that type of, that type of kind of old school pagan.

[00:53:59] Um, so part of that I think is she said she was, that we joke, we need a green witch.

[00:54:06] No, you, I'm the green witch.

[00:54:08] Okay.

[00:54:09] So then her whole thing is being nature.

[00:54:12] So she gets the bodies to bring it back to mother nature.

[00:54:15] Yeah.

[00:54:15] I think that's something there.

[00:54:16] And she does also say something when we find out that this is Agatha's trial as well,

[00:54:20] um, that we're all close to death.

[00:54:22] Yeah.

[00:54:23] Doesn't she?

[00:54:24] So, um, so there's something, there's something else there.

[00:54:26] Um, so.

[00:54:27] They just keep bringing up death and bodies too much with her.

[00:54:29] So.

[00:54:30] Yeah.

[00:54:31] Yeah.

[00:54:32] Excellent stuff.

[00:54:33] Um, I think that is our, uh, fifth spell wound up, uh, any notes, uh, from this episode?

[00:54:41] A couple of little notes.

[00:54:42] Yeah.

[00:54:42] Yeah.

[00:54:43] They definitely don't want us to forget, um, that Lily is a bit odd, isn't she?

[00:54:47] Um, when she says, when she says lines like, uh, I didn't like this the first time.

[00:54:52] So, uh, when they're in the trial for the first time.

[00:54:55] So yeah, there's definitely something there, but also a big reveal about her powers in this

[00:55:00] episode as well.

[00:55:01] Um, Lydia says she's never talked to the dead.

[00:55:03] That was just an easy way to describe what she was doing and she can just read people

[00:55:07] and read time.

[00:55:09] Yeah.

[00:55:10] That's really.

[00:55:10] We're right with that back where we joked about that.

[00:55:13] Yeah.

[00:55:14] That's a really interesting, um, power to have that she's reading time.

[00:55:18] Yeah.

[00:55:18] So, um, so different things that happened in the past, present and future are going through

[00:55:22] her mind all at the same time.

[00:55:23] That's why she actually was able to see the arrival of the Salem seven at the start of the

[00:55:27] episode.

[00:55:28] She's not having a dream or a nightmare.

[00:55:30] She's actually seeing it because time is passing through her.

[00:55:33] Uh, that's a really, a really cool power.

[00:55:34] Yeah.

[00:55:35] Well, she even clocks that this, the test is Agatha's, uh, because she says the blood moon

[00:55:41] is when the veil between the living and the dead is at its thinnest again.

[00:55:46] I wonder if that's just with the association of Rio.

[00:55:49] You know, that's things that this, this couplet, um, is really intriguing to me.

[00:55:56] Yeah.

[00:55:56] Um, because yeah, you know, as you said, Chris, is it the original green witch or is it death?

[00:56:04] You know?

[00:56:04] Yeah.

[00:56:04] There's something weird.

[00:56:06] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:56:07] So yeah, really, really good stuff to me.

[00:56:09] It's really intriguing.

[00:56:11] The, the last one about the teen when we see him grow his crown.

[00:56:15] Do you know who the artist is for the mic drop, the needle drop moment, the song at the

[00:56:21] end?

[00:56:21] The artist is Billy Irish.

[00:56:23] So again, just to make you think, just to hammer home, this is Wiccan.

[00:56:27] This is Billy.

[00:56:28] Yeah.

[00:56:29] They're like, here you go.

[00:56:30] It's Billy Eilish.

[00:56:31] And you're like, yeah, well done.

[00:56:33] Okay.

[00:56:33] Yeah.

[00:56:33] We get it.

[00:56:34] Like we get every, every aspect that you're throwing in our face.

[00:56:38] Absolutely.

[00:56:39] But it must be so cool to have the money to do something like this where you go, right,

[00:56:45] we're going to reveal Billy Wiccan at the end of an episode.

[00:56:49] He's going to be wearing a crown.

[00:56:51] Can we have Billy Eilish's, you should be, you should see me in a crown.

[00:56:55] Like what a great way to be able to break open the checkbooks.

[00:56:58] We need that song.

[00:56:59] It opens with the perfect line and by an artist that also will give a little, uh,

[00:57:03] little nod to the character is.

[00:57:05] How cool is that?

[00:57:06] Um, like it's fascinating.

[00:57:07] We, I think we talked, we did talk about it on the podcast last week.

[00:57:09] This is the least expensive of all the Marvel TV shows.

[00:57:13] It's a, it's each episode costs less than every other show that they use, uh, practical effects for the most part.

[00:57:18] Not, not much CGI in the show for the most part.

[00:57:21] Um, so it's really interesting.

[00:57:23] I would say they probably did put a lot of budget to Billy Eilish to go,

[00:57:26] can we just use that song for our closing credits?

[00:57:28] It's a great song though.

[00:57:29] I really like it.

[00:57:30] I'm not, I'm not a massive Billy Eilish fan.

[00:57:33] Really?

[00:57:33] Oh wow.

[00:57:34] Yeah.

[00:57:34] I love her albums.

[00:57:35] I play them very often.

[00:57:37] Really like her stuff.

[00:57:38] Yeah.

[00:57:38] Great stuff.

[00:57:40] But he gets all the notes.

[00:57:41] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:57:42] That's all the notes.

[00:57:43] So Chris, do you defend episode five of Agatha all along?

[00:57:51] I do.

[00:57:51] I do.

[00:57:52] I really enjoyed this one.

[00:57:53] I think it's going to be one that we look back on and go, oh, okay.

[00:57:57] There's not, there's not, there's not where they'll kind of.

[00:58:01] And again, as you said, it's the shortest of all of them so far.

[00:58:05] It is a breakneck pace from beginning.

[00:58:10] You're, you're being chased and the story is being chased.

[00:58:13] So we're just getting, getting, getting, getting.

[00:58:16] So I really enjoyed for what it was.

[00:58:20] We didn't have time to sit back and go, ah, what is it?

[00:58:22] What does that?

[00:58:23] Ooh.

[00:58:23] What about, ooh.

[00:58:25] Like it was just go, go, go.

[00:58:26] So I'm kind of hoping they just kind of go, go, go straight to next episode.

[00:58:31] Give me the next episode.

[00:58:32] Absolutely.

[00:58:33] You know, just shadow drop it for me.

[00:58:34] Come on, go.

[00:58:35] Like, yay.

[00:58:36] But I know it won't.

[00:58:37] This time next week we'll be happy bunching.

[00:58:40] I know all the answers.

[00:58:41] But until then, I will sit here and debate online with everyone.

[00:58:45] So yes, I defend this episode.

[00:58:48] Excellent stuff.

[00:58:48] But then Derek, do you defend this episode of Agatha all along?

[00:58:52] I love this.

[00:58:53] This is exactly why I love weekly TV.

[00:58:55] Stick a cliffhanger at the end of an episode and let me speculate about it for a week.

[00:58:59] Absolutely.

[00:58:59] I love it.

[00:59:00] That's exactly it.

[00:59:00] I'd hate if this was a Netflix show and there was a cliffhanger there and then we just

[00:59:03] get to find out what it is immediately.

[00:59:05] I hate when that happens, especially because usually what actually happens is that happens

[00:59:09] after we've watched three episodes back to back and we have to go out somewhere and we

[00:59:13] still have to deal with the cliffhanger, even though it's sitting right there.

[00:59:17] But I'm really glad that they've that they've have this revealed at the end of the episode.

[00:59:21] Episode overall.

[00:59:22] Yes, very fast.

[00:59:24] There was lots of really good stuff in there, but I actually did want another five minutes

[00:59:28] in the episode and it was in the cabin because I think the actual location for a horror Halloween

[00:59:33] TV show is a great location.

[00:59:36] And I don't think we're going to visit another another horror cabin later on down the line.

[00:59:41] Actually, unless everything is a horror cabin, is it of all of all the episodes been horror

[00:59:45] cabins?

[00:59:46] But this one specifically where we're taking references from Evil Dead and from Friday the

[00:59:50] 13th, some of my favorite slasher movies and horror movies from the 80s.

[00:59:53] I wish we just had a little bit more time with the coven in this scenario in the episode.

[01:00:00] And it would have made 30 minutes long, a bit closer to the other episodes.

[01:00:04] Wouldn't have affected any of the other storyline in there.

[01:00:07] But I just wish we had a little moment as they discussed or chatted.

[01:00:11] Yeah, I think so.

[01:00:12] Certainly because Alice dies here.

[01:00:15] Yeah.

[01:00:16] Because the character moments have been graced this season with the with the actual actors

[01:00:19] and having a bit more time with them on screen is always good fun.

[01:00:22] So yeah.

[01:00:22] Yeah.

[01:00:23] But overall really enjoyed the episode.

[01:00:25] How about yourself John?

[01:00:25] Do you defend this episode of Agatha Long?

[01:00:28] Yes, I do defend this episode.

[01:00:31] I would give this four Hex and Bessons broom broom out of five.

[01:00:36] I really enjoyed this.

[01:00:37] I think, yeah, tad short, 23 minutes, I guess.

[01:00:42] But it felt quick.

[01:00:45] Not but it didn't feel like that affected it.

[01:00:48] I really enjoyed it.

[01:00:50] But I think, yeah, a bit more time in the cabin for myself as well.

[01:00:55] I think in particular for the teen with Alice, I think we see them connecting in Jennifer's

[01:01:00] episode, you know, and I think you can see that sort of connection a bit between these

[01:01:08] two.

[01:01:08] And I think that's why he takes it that sort of badly really to some degree.

[01:01:14] I think if it had been any member of the Coven.

[01:01:17] Yeah, I agree.

[01:01:17] That would have been his reaction.

[01:01:18] No, I agree.

[01:01:18] Because I think he's got a connection now with all three of the other members of the

[01:01:22] Coven and is trying to connect with Agatha and Agatha is pushing him back quite a lot.

[01:01:27] And he's trying to find his place in that witching world.

[01:01:30] So like, this is a really important thing for him.

[01:01:34] So but I really enjoyed this love the Salem seven love the moment on the the brooms.

[01:01:41] I thought it was really class.

[01:01:43] And it don't often just go just for the sheer delight of it.

[01:01:48] I just thought it was really, really good.

[01:01:50] It is like that moment with E.T. in, you know, in the front of the bicycle.

[01:01:56] It's just kind of like this release glorious moment as absolutely loved it.

[01:02:01] And and I'm just really intrigued really with what's going to happen with Rio.

[01:02:07] Where has Agatha gone?

[01:02:09] Is it isn't it working?

[01:02:10] It is working.

[01:02:12] And if it's not, then they're just doing something different but calling in that.

[01:02:17] And yeah, I just really enjoyed this.

[01:02:20] So for Hex and Besson's broom brooms out of five for me, and I definitely defend this episode.

[01:02:28] Three defense there. Excellent stuff.

[01:02:30] All really enjoying the show so far.

[01:02:32] I think it's been a lot of fun, hasn't it?

[01:02:34] Oh, definitely.

[01:02:35] Yeah.

[01:02:35] But I think we need to raise a toast to the lost sister.

[01:02:38] Absolutely.

[01:02:39] Absolutely.

[01:02:39] Let's get down to the local pub or maybe the local cauldron.

[01:02:42] Yes.

[01:02:44] Yes.

[01:02:44] For Agatha all along, cauldron quiz.

[01:02:48] Yes.

[01:02:48] Episode five, question five in memoriam for Alice Wu.

[01:02:52] And here is the question.

[01:02:54] What age does the teen say you need to be to play Parker Brothers Ouija board?

[01:03:00] I was very surprised.

[01:03:01] I was very surprised as well.

[01:03:03] Now, I don't know whether that's the same in real life.

[01:03:06] I suspect it is, but we're asking what the teen says in the episode just in case in real

[01:03:11] life it's different, right?

[01:03:12] Unless you've got Parker Brothers Ouija board and it's something completely different.

[01:03:16] Don't go reading it from the box.

[01:03:19] Yes.

[01:03:19] Yes.

[01:03:20] From the episode.

[01:03:21] John, do you want to get the question one more time?

[01:03:22] Yes.

[01:03:22] What age does the teen say you need to be to play Parker Brothers Ouija board?

[01:03:29] Excellent.

[01:03:29] That's the fifth question gathered together.

[01:03:31] The correct answers.

[01:03:31] Email us at the end of the season with all of your correct answers to feedback at tvpodcastindustries.com

[01:03:37] and you could be able to chance of getting your hands on some Agatha all along goodies.

[01:03:40] If you've missed any of the questions so far, pop on over to our website at tvpodcastindustries.com

[01:03:45] and there's a pub quiz section on there that has all the questions that you may have missed.

[01:03:48] Yes.

[01:03:49] Good luck fellow defenders and fellow quizzers in the Cauldron Quiz.

[01:03:54] Let us get on to our feedback section.

[01:03:59] Mm-hmm.

[01:04:00] First up on email at feedback at tvpodcastindustries.com, coffee and vodka says greetings fellow mummy

[01:04:09] dearest defenders.

[01:04:10] I keep forgetting Agatha's a bad guy.

[01:04:13] Where to start?

[01:04:14] Where to end?

[01:04:15] This one's got me spinning.

[01:04:16] Alice is gone.

[01:04:18] Wiccan's here and not at all happy.

[01:04:21] Three buried alive off road.

[01:04:23] The main character among them.

[01:04:25] The rest unaccounted for.

[01:04:27] All in an episode that feels maybe 10 minutes long.

[01:04:31] And yet another song to add to my favorites list.

[01:04:34] More a collection of sensations than an installment, which really can't be commented on,

[01:04:40] much less figured out until we see what follows.

[01:04:42] Still an effective collection of sensations complete with brooms, the Salem 7 and a retainer.

[01:04:49] Until we know which side is up, it's all just a lesson as to why sleepovers are never a good idea.

[01:04:56] Five-ish revolutionary revelations, creepy cuddly creatures and open spell ways out of five.

[01:05:05] Peace and take care.

[01:05:06] Coffee and vodka.

[01:05:08] Excellent stuff.

[01:05:09] Thanks, coffee and vodka.

[01:05:10] Yeah, I thought that moment with Jennifer and the retainer was hilarious.

[01:05:13] She has to say, Agatha has to be punished and then has to take the retainer out to repeat the words because she couldn't get them out of the retainer in.

[01:05:21] Very good.

[01:05:22] Very good.

[01:05:23] Yeah, it was a really, really fun episode, wasn't it?

[01:05:25] Yes, like it really was.

[01:05:27] And I can, I get the, you know, the angle of this collection of sensations.

[01:05:32] It was absolutely very fast paced.

[01:05:35] I think, you know, we said it at the start, you know, it was this chase.

[01:05:39] It was frenetic.

[01:05:40] You kind of just reacted to what was happening because it was, you know, really quick.

[01:05:45] I mean, in a sense, I appreciated it more the second time of watching it.

[01:05:52] I also appreciated the short run time just in terms of taking my notes because like, to be honest, recently, you know, we've been doing the Rings of Power and that like at least an hour.

[01:06:02] And it's like, oh my goodness, I haven't written that much in ages.

[01:06:07] Honestly, John tries to keep his notes to one page.

[01:06:10] A fellow defender who tries to always keep it to one page.

[01:06:12] He was getting to the point that he was writing like John Doe from the seven movies in his diary.

[01:06:17] He was like, his writing was so small, he couldn't read it when we were podcasting.

[01:06:20] So he was still trying to keep it to one page and eventually went over to two and even three pages in some episodes of that show because it's massive.

[01:06:27] Yeah, really good.

[01:06:28] Really good.

[01:06:29] But there's no head in a box.

[01:06:30] No, there's no.

[01:06:31] No, no.

[01:06:32] What in the box?

[01:06:35] Thanks, Coffee and Vodka.

[01:06:36] Let's head on over to Facebook.

[01:06:38] Yes, thanks, Coffee and Vodka.

[01:06:39] Thanks, Coffee and Vodka.

[01:06:40] First up over on Facebook, we have some feedback from Terry Miller who has this to say.

[01:06:44] I haven't seen this episode yet.

[01:06:47] I just got home from work, but then it just hit me and I had to share.

[01:06:51] I think I know who Agatha is.

[01:06:53] So my theory, Agatha is the humbug version of the Wizard of Oz, Professor Marvel.

[01:06:58] She was a grifter who teamed up with death and never walked the witch's road.

[01:07:02] The grif was that she gathered them with death, killed them, she'd get the power and death would make its quota.

[01:07:09] And I've also been wanting to wish you a happy anniversary.

[01:07:12] I've been with you since the good old Hazeon Gotham days.

[01:07:16] Thanks, Terry.

[01:07:18] Yeah.

[01:07:18] Thank you so much, Terry.

[01:07:20] And great to get the old theory.

[01:07:23] I mean, yeah, certainly I think the whole death angle is probably pretty good.

[01:07:29] Yeah.

[01:07:29] But who knows?

[01:07:30] Because I think there's a lot of stuff in the way this is written where it can be kind of multiple things.

[01:07:39] But certainly I can see that angle around Agatha working with death.

[01:07:45] Yeah.

[01:07:45] And I think we'd mentioned before that we had that kind of theory that Agatha hadn't gone down the road because she doesn't help anybody.

[01:07:52] Even when she's asked direct questions, she doesn't really say anything committal or anything to indicate that she'd actually been down the road.

[01:07:58] So maybe she was just bringing covens to a doorway and then killing them all, taking their powers and leaving the bodies there for death.

[01:08:05] So maybe that's exactly what she was doing.

[01:08:07] She'd never been on the road before.

[01:08:09] And thanks so much for the happy anniversary, Terry, our 10th anniversary this year just coming by.

[01:08:14] And as part of the 10th anniversary, we're back in Gotham again.

[01:08:17] We're covering the penguins.

[01:08:18] So I hope you're listening along on that as well, Terry.

[01:08:20] Yes.

[01:08:21] Thank you so much, Terry.

[01:08:22] Yeah.

[01:08:22] Good stuff.

[01:08:23] Thanks so much, Terry.

[01:08:24] Also over on Facebook, Heather Wallace says, that was so tense.

[01:08:27] I already had to wait for the sun to go down to watch it because stupid daylight savings started on the weekend and made my house too light to see the screen.

[01:08:34] Although even a twilight was hard to see the early scenes in the episode, but it was worth the wait.

[01:08:38] Poor Alice or IP confirmation that Lily is getting visions of the future.

[01:08:43] And wow, Agatha going coldly menacing is really creepy.

[01:08:46] Am I right that Ria wasn't there when the teen, although I guess we can now call him Billy, put them all under the ground?

[01:08:52] And the start when Agatha was telling them to pack up and move was reminiscent of me trying to motivate hungover friends to leave our Airbnb the morning after Eurovision.

[01:09:02] Fantastic, Heather.

[01:09:02] I love it.

[01:09:03] I love it.

[01:09:03] Yeah.

[01:09:04] I think we've all had that experience after lots of drinks watching Eurovision.

[01:09:09] And loads of things.

[01:09:12] Yeah.

[01:09:13] Super Bowl.

[01:09:14] I guess stag do's, hem do's, you name it.

[01:09:18] I guess the university.

[01:09:20] Yeah.

[01:09:21] But yeah, no, I totally understand that.

[01:09:26] Yeah.

[01:09:27] And I'm there with you around Agatha kind of going coldly menacing as she, in a sense, because she's been powered up, realizes quite who the teen is.

[01:09:38] And from my side, yes, I think we can possibly call him Billy.

[01:09:43] Certainly maybe Wiccan.

[01:09:46] Maybe, maybe we'll find it next week.

[01:09:49] A Wiccan, A Wiccan.

[01:09:49] A Wiccan, the Wiccan.

[01:09:51] Exactly.

[01:09:51] A Billy, the Billy.

[01:09:53] Who knows?

[01:09:54] Absolutely.

[01:09:54] Thanks so much for that, Heather.

[01:09:56] Finally, we got a message from Paul Tenchi Lee, who says,

[01:09:59] WTF with Alice.

[01:10:00] Shortest episode yet, but so packed of character details.

[01:10:03] Also, I'm having some 80s outfit PTSD.

[01:10:06] Love the digital watches.

[01:10:08] Also, also, now that ghosts are canonical on the road, we might get Sharon and Alice back in later episodes as none flashbacks.

[01:10:15] Flashback characters.

[01:10:16] Ooh, that's an interesting thing there, Paul.

[01:10:18] Oh, yeah.

[01:10:19] It could be a little power up of ghosts.

[01:10:22] Yeah.

[01:10:22] Yeah.

[01:10:22] I must say, you know, we're five episodes into the show.

[01:10:26] We're over halfway through.

[01:10:28] And this is the most different feeling thing that Marvel Studios has done so far.

[01:10:33] It has introducing things to the MCU that we've never had before.

[01:10:37] Like death.

[01:10:39] Like actual ghosts appearing in scenes in here.

[01:10:44] You know, there used to be this thing where they'd say, you know, oh, they've mentioned Wakanda for the first time in the MCU.

[01:10:50] And you're going, well, yeah, that's mentionable.

[01:10:52] That's fine.

[01:10:52] You know, we'll get there in a couple of years time here.

[01:10:54] They're like, you know, every week they're throwing in spells and magic and, and say ghosts, things like that every week.

[01:11:01] And you're going, how is this going to play out in the future of the MCU?

[01:11:04] I don't think they care.

[01:11:06] They're just, just having lots of fun making the show.

[01:11:08] I don't think it needs to as well.

[01:11:09] But it always has in the past is the point.

[01:11:11] I know.

[01:11:11] This isn't DC.

[01:11:12] These aren't unconnected things.

[01:11:14] I know.

[01:11:14] I'm not saying it has to be unconnected or connected.

[01:11:17] I'm just saying, I think you can play within the toy pit.

[01:11:21] I think they are.

[01:11:22] Of Marvel.

[01:11:23] But they had never been allowed to in the past.

[01:11:25] No, I know.

[01:11:26] I get it.

[01:11:26] Every single thing that appeared on screen, every action that's there on screen would have been underlined to say, well, what happens if Captain Marvel suddenly is able to use

[01:11:34] magic or the ghost of somebody appears to Captain America or whatever.

[01:11:38] Agreed.

[01:11:39] Everything was connected.

[01:11:40] It was.

[01:11:41] Absolutely.

[01:11:42] And we've had countless discussions on this podcast around whether they should be rigidly adhered to.

[01:11:52] You know where I stand.

[01:11:53] Connected and consistency, different things.

[01:11:56] Yes.

[01:11:57] I love the consistency that they're bringing.

[01:12:00] But I love what they're doing.

[01:12:03] And that's why I always, not only because Doctor Strange, my character, but that was a big jolt to the MCU, having magic.

[01:12:12] You know, same with having space.

[01:12:15] And the same with whatever, you know, that moves it on from spies and espionage.

[01:12:23] Which is a bit of a shame.

[01:12:24] Yep.

[01:12:26] Great stuff.

[01:12:27] Thanks so much for all your feedback.

[01:12:29] Keep sending your feedback into us.

[01:12:30] You can email us to feedback at tvpodcastindustries.com or pop on our website or Facebook group at facebook.com slash groups slash TV podcast industries, where you can share your thoughts on each episode of every show that we're covering.

[01:12:41] We'll spoil our post up there for that.

[01:12:43] Yes.

[01:12:44] Thanks everyone for your thoughts.

[01:12:46] Thank you so much from me and everyone here in TV podcast energy.

[01:12:50] Can't wait to see you next week when we find out.

[01:12:53] Is it a Wiccan, the Wiccan, a Wiccan?

[01:12:56] What is a Wiccan?

[01:12:57] A Wiccan.

[01:12:58] One more time.

[01:13:00] Is this a Wiccan vibe?

[01:13:02] You can see it now.

[01:13:03] He's going to go.

[01:13:04] My name's actually Brian and I'm a wizard.

[01:13:08] No, you got both things wrong.

[01:13:11] Thanks so much for joining us.

[01:13:12] We'll talk to you again next time.

[01:13:13] Yeah.

[01:13:14] Thanks so much for joining us as always, fellow defenders until next week.

[01:13:20] Keep watching, keep listening and of course, keep defending.

[01:13:24] Bye.

[01:13:25] Bye.

[01:13:25] Bye.